Loyalty house mod

[bondovic]

What's up, community.

For starters - I don't know if there's even a slight bit of interest in a thing such as this given the state of the MTW community at this point in time. But I've always felt that it's an important matter that just hasn't been reflected in any 'official' mod out there. I could be wrong about that last part - if so: read the preface, yawn and consider me outlandish. If I'm right, though, things just got interesting...

The deal is this: The BUILD_PROD is lacking a province discrimination function. This is perhaps the silliest thing ever, since you're unable to distribute certain buildings to specific provinces rather than, as it is, globally. This relates to my ancient idea (of creating circumstances in which invaders would have a harder time controlling a province than the 'historical' owner) in a very detrimental way, because the only way to get this done properly is to assign to each a faction-specific loyalty building that is only available at certain designated provinces. You get the picture.

I engaged in a very enlightening discussion with Asai Naga regarding this matter where I learned of the limitations set upon us house modders by the source (recommended read for background catch up). But he kind of brought me back with the genious gambit of making these faction-specific loyalty buildings dependant on a resource. This resource could then be distributed across the map to reflect 'homelands' for each faction.

Now. This was some time ago and I only recently got around to actually fixing this. Yes, it works, but not in the way I wanted it to. The fact of the bloody matter is that resources are hardcoded. Insanity. This madness obviously means that you're limited to 6 loyalty buildings. Soooo, this begs the question: How best to make use of 6 loyalty buildings?

The way I see it there are these options:

1. Divide the camp map into 6 regions wherein the loyalty buildings are trainable by all starting factions. E.g. 'West Europe' consists of Danish, German, English and French empires, and, 'Mediterranean Europe' consists of Spanish, Aragonese and Italian empires and so on. The resources are distributed very arbitrarily to reflect the way I(!) think the borders of respective 'culture' should look.

2. Make exceptions. The weaker factions should still be able to invade the stronger factions but not conversely. Denmark, Sweden and Norway would hence be given a 'rebellious' boost to about 9 (which makes occupying practically impossible, ar at least not very feasible at all) but also be given the 'loyalty resource' on which their faction-unique loyalty building depends. Danish would be able to control Scandinavia, but no one else would.

What I'm looking for is this: Which option makes the game more fun, and why? What should the 'cultural regions' look like, both regarding provinces and factions? What should the 'rebellious' 'loyalty bonus' relationship look like (I have it at 8 vs. 95/135 at the moment)? If option 2 is preferred - which factions should be exempted? Etc.

I sure hope I haven't written all this in vain and ya'll are already playing house mods on this very concept and I'm the last guy in the world to realize this. I have yet to have heard this debated, though, so I thought it decent to present this concept nevertheless. Hopefully this sparks your imagination and a little bit of discussion, since I'm in need of perspectives on this. Testing the concept is possible if you wish - I have no problems with releasing the files for anyone who wants to give it a go (because I know how much it sucks to tinker all the changes manually, believe me).

So, yeah, that's it for now. Cheers!

[gollum]

welcome back bondovic,
option 1) would have been my choice. If i understand correctly factions won't be getting the valor bonus outside provinces that get the resource ie home provinces (broadly, ie catholic, orthodox, muslim or otherwise, but you get the point). Its a promising vision.

[Axalon]

Hello there Bondovic and Gollum,

I don’t think we two crossed paths before Bon, so this is probably the first time us. Anyhow, it is an interesting idea you got going there. Obviously it comes at a price, but that don’t seem to scare you off. Personally, I would go for your alternative 1. It seems more viable to me.


However, I think the biggest problem here in order for you to create a more difficult and entertaining game in general (which seem to be your overriding goal) will eventually boil down to the AI. So you will have to do something about that before you get the chance to see the full potential of this idea, that’s my guess anyhow.

The regular MTW AI is rather screwed up. It is, if not fixable, certainly is improvable. Redux + Spanish Fix is good example of that; try it out, because from the way it sounds, it seems you have not. If nothing else, just to make sure that it is not your cup of tea. Then again, it might hit home – you don’t get know until you try.

You see, I have already worked with concepts of culture and regions in a way that don’t seem to be too distant from your own ideas as I understand them here. However I have not used resources as distinction-markers, nor such strict geographical boundaries either but there are similarities with the concept of cultural identities, clear distinctions of such and its significance. At any rate, the end result you are seemingly looking for is there anyhow – a harder, more diverse and interesting game then the original.

- Cheers

[bondovic]

A couple of things I might have left out:

1. The 'rebellious' value for each province that can be found in the startpos is bumped to an avg of 8 across the map. This means that without available loyalty buildings you'll need huge garrisons to keep rebellions from happening.

2. Right now I'm using the Watch Towers family as my loyalty buildings. This is not set in stone but has a few fun side effects: 1) You'll need agents to find out about neighbouring provinces when out of your homelands, 2) When expanding your empire only spies will be able to keep enemy covert agents out.

3. This is a house mod for MTW: VI, no other add-ons.

Att. Gollum: Oi. That's correct. Right now the stable of 'cultures' looks as follows:

(Denoms referring to where cultural resources are placed, 'early homelands' refers to borders of said faction at gamestart 'Early')

Western Europe: Danish, French, English, German
Borders: (roughly) 'Germany', Scandinavia, British isles and 'France' with the exception of Flanders.

Mediterranean Europe: Spanish, Aragonese, Italian, Sicilian
Borders: Spanish peninsula except Portugal, Italian early homelands, Sicilian early homelands + Croatia, Provence, Toulouse

Eastern Europe: Hungarian, Polish
Borders: Polish + Hungarian early homes, Balkans except Greece + Kiev, Moldavia, Carpathia, Wallachia, Bulgaria

Greek Europe: Byzantine
Borders: Byzantine early except Anatolia, Lesser A, Georgia. Balkans + Kiev, Moldavia, Sicily, Malta

Russian Europe: Novgorod
Borders: Russia except Khazar, Lithuania.

Arab Culture: Egyptian, Almohad, Turkish
Borders: North Africa, Middle East, Asia Minor + Bulgaria, Serbia, Cordoba, Granada

Att. Axalon: HEJ! Well, it's not so much the cultures per se that I'm interested in - I actually think CA did a decent job at creating distinct 'feels' to the factions/cultures. One thing I've done in the past is to assign homelands to units, and did so in order to hamper expansion and superpowerism. That wasn't enough, though, as I wanted an even more stable power balance. The method explained in this thread is basically the only way to do it, I think.

[gollum]

Hi Axalon, welcome back.

Seems good bondovic - it'll be interesting to try. Modding MTW is fun in any case.

[caravel]

Hello,

This sounds a good idea. "Culture" resources can be created and added per province. Buildings can then be assigned a resource as a prerequisite for a building. This then opens up many new possibilities.

My input/opinions:

I would not use the watchtowers for this, because you will probably need a building that is there in the startpos from the very beginning. Using the watchtowers means that every faction has watchtowers from the start which may not be desirable. A new building would be best.

I would use a simple, low cost religious themed building. That is to say, I would use religions rather than cultures. This makes sense as most of your western and mediterranean regions are catholic. The rest can then be lumped into pagan, orthodox and muslim regions. I don't think the western/mediterranean divide would make sense, as you're artificially dividing catholic christendom - just an opinion.

The building could be a simple cross that costs ~ 50 florins. For the christian one you can borrow the cross from VI, for the pagan one, the shrine from VI will also suffice. For the muslims and orthodox you would have to run off some .bif/buf files to do the job - or you could use one of the others (or one of the unused .bif files) as a placeholder.

For example: If you decreased base loyalty to -2, in-game the faction could build it's "cultural marker" to bring it back up to 0. An invading faction won't be able to build an opposing culture's loyalty building.

You could indeed add your honour or morale bonuses to this building and maybe remove them from the smith or church buildings. This means that your troops trained in your homelands would be of a better class.

Again, it's an interesting idea.

Yohei

[gollum]

In fact Axalon, i've always wondered what AI parameters you have tweaked, given that for redux is stated that you use a different system than CA's. It'be helpful for the rest of us and very interesting if you could expand.

[bondovic]

In fact Axalon, i've always wondered what AI parameters you have tweaked, given that for redux is stated that you use a different system than CA's. It'be helpful for the rest of us and very interesting if you could expand.

Indeed.

[bondovic]

Hi, Yohei.

This project is basically about creating a more stable campmap, in the sense that it makes superpowerism an extremely rare phenomenon. For that reason, I need to make use of as many 'culture resources' as possible, which means maximum of 6. If it's done by religion, the culture regions get very big and so the chance of powersurges increase. To pit fellow catholics against eachother I see no problem with. Even if I'm not the most rabid Historical-Accuracy-Argument guy around, I'll use England vs France as an example of why this feels OK. Sadly, in my mod, their provinces will actually have to share culture and loyalty building.

Your suggestion carries some merit, though. It might just be nice to see proponents of the four religions become superpowers and slug it out for decades on end! But for now, I like my hexagon better.

[bondovic]

it'll be interesting to try. Modding MTW is fun in any case.

It sure is. Just let me know if you want the files!

[caravel]

In fact Axalon, i've always wondered what AI parameters you have tweaked, given that for redux is stated that you use a different system than CA's. It'be helpful for the rest of us and very interesting if you could expand.

I had always understood the AI to be hardcoded? So it is true that this mod actually improves the AI? Interesting and I would like some more information on this also if possible? I would try it myself but at the moment I could never get the game running properly with my Nvidia graphics card so it is not installed at present.

Your suggestion carries some merit, though. It might just be nice to see proponents of the four religions become superpowers and slug it out for decades on end! But for now, I like my hexagon better.

You should try this and please let us know how you get on? It is always worth experimenting and this idea should add a new dynamic to the game. I wish I could try this myself.

Yohei

[bondovic]

Unfortunately, I don't see myself changing everything all over anytime soon. The details you need to go through take something like 3 hrs of pure editing, not to mention planning and theorizing. I always knew this, which is why it took me almost 2 yrs to get my head out and get it done. But the variation of the 6-culture version is the same as the 4-religion, only broader. So my update will tell something about the general concept for sure.

[bondovic]

I wish I could try this myself.

There's no reason you can't. AFAIK there are fixes for the Nvidia issues posted on these forums. Once you get the game going, as I said - if you want to test the mod, just lemme know.

[gollum]

I'd most certainly like to try it, as soon as i re-install the game again. Thanks.

[Belisario]

I would also like to try it. Do you give us a public release of your house mod, Bondovic?

[bondovic]

Well, I wouldn't know where to post the files. Any suggestions? Or do you trust me with your email?

[caravel]

There's no reason you can't. AFAIK there are fixes for the Nvidia issues posted on these forums. Once you get the game going, as I said - if you want to test the mod, just lemme know.

Unfortunately there's no solution to it to date. The loading screen takes about 2 or 3 minutes to start loading and units cannot be directed in battles etc. The game is simply unplayable on most modern hardware. Also those using Win7 are having issues with the resolution being locked at 800x600.

I'm also now a Linux user, I won't be going back to windows just to run one game, and am just here for nostalgia's sake. In my opinion CA have let down their customers badly as regard the old games and as regards the decline in quality of the newer titles.

What really needs to happen is a free and open source port of the old STW/MTW engine. This would bring it back to life and fix all of the known bugs. It would also open up boundless possibilities for modding. CA won't help in this, so it would involve reverse engineering the game engine. This has been done for other games such as the Baldur's gate series.

Yohei

[bondovic]

I see. That sure stinks. Best not get rid of my ancient laptop then.

[Mark]

Hello. I am posting so you know there are lurkers out here reading what they can.

I find this subject fascinating. Do continue.

[bondovic]

Right now I'm kind of in the hole with work and classes. Soon enough, though, I'll get some more hours in on the campaign. After that ya'll can expect to see a more comprehensive report of what's happening.

The small amount of time I've had to test this has shown so far that:

Rebellions happen very regularly. Even when you invade with a considerable force you need to go 'very low' to get fair odds at avoiding an insurgence.

Often enough these rebel forces are quite powerful. This means that the AI invaders retreat every now and then, leaving these super rebel armies in charge. I'm still undecided as to whether this is cool or not. Thing is, the only way to keep this from happening would be to lower the 'rebellious' value of all provinces. But this would mean fewer rebellions, not milder rebellions. I want lots of rebellions.

Until next time.

B