SPQR? Who?

[Kikaz]

download some SVG file from Wikimedia. then you can edit it with Coreldraw or any vector based Image editing software or convert it into png and edit it in Photoshop..

Thanks, would Gimp work well (if they're now Vista compatible) in this endeavor?

[plutoboyz]

Thanks, would Gimp work well (if they're now Vista compatible) in this endeavor?

I don't know about gimp. never try it. if its Vector-based, it should work well.

[Ibrahim]

I don't know about gimp. never try it. if its Vector-based, it should work well.

it does.

[Grade_A_Beef]

Wait why would the Phoenician culture take up so much of the Mediterranean coast? They were never able to fully capture Sicily, and that was pretty much from Greek opposition alone. I doubt they'll be able to take mainland Greece...

In any case wouldn't any empire that arises from the Mediterranean still fall to the Great Migration that caused the collapse of the Western Roman Empire?

[Imperator Invictus]

The World without Rome:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I don't understand why you people are thinking that American cultures couldn't form some great empires? Have you forgot the Incas and the Aztecs? They are a bit out of the timeframe but I doubt Carthaginians would've sent armies across the ocean to conquer some strange lands. First of all, Europeans only managed to conquer the New World because of their plagues and gunpowder. Civilizations in New World and in the Old World were not that different if we consider the technology. So, it would take a 20000-40000 men to start conquering the America. But considering the amount of money and supplies needed to support that money..
Any empire in the Europe at that time would've been bankrupt very fast! They couldn't support larger armies for a long time in Europe why do you think they could support and army thousands of miles from Europe across the ocean? So, thinking that some Celtic people would colonize the Northern America and Carthaginians would take over Southern America is utopia and fantasy!
There would be contacts of course but no conquests or something like that.

[Brennus]

The World without Rome:

Nice map, but (forgive me if I am reading this wrong) what makes you think that Germans would have established themselves in Britain? Also your Gothic settlement of North America seems a little questionable- any possible evidence to suggest the Goths could have achieved such gains?


With regards to Ibn-Khaldun, I doubt that Native Americans could have become major powers in Europe mainly becuase of their lack of metallurgical technology. However I agree with you there is no evidence to suggest Carthage would have become the Spanish Empire of an alternative future.

Folks could you simply focus on Eurasia and Africa without theorising what goes on in the New World, please. Any theories of what would happen to America I think have the tendency to become clouded by nationalist feelings e.g. any Welsh forum users will likely colonize the Americas with Celts whilst Polish would probably do the same with Slavs... I only dread to think what Cute Wolf would colonize it with.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

@Brennus, I think you misunderstood. I never said that Native Americans would become major powers in Europe. I meant that Europeans were not that technologically superior over the Americans. If there would've been some trading between the Native Americans and Europeans then most likely the former would have learned how to make iron etc and the difference between the two worlds would've become even smaller.

[Brennus]

@ Ibn-Khaldun I do apologise, i see what you mean now. Yes your quite right cross-Atlantic trading links could have enabled Native Americans to have developed a level of technology on par with Europe. Thinking about it now the Vinland settlement did not enjoy any great technological advantage of the native neighbours, and the massive Spanish gains can be attributed to sheer good luck on Spain's part.

And thats the last I am saying on America or I will be a hypocrite, now, back to Eurasia!

[plutoboyz]

@Brennus, I think you misunderstood. I never said that Native Americans would become major powers in Europe. I meant that Europeans were not that technologically superior over the Americans. If there would've been some trading between the Native Americans and Europeans then most likely the former would have learned how to make iron etc and the difference between the two worlds would've become even smaller.

Maybe in late medieval times, some Polynesian encounter american and boom! American Have army polynesian have navy. if they not at war of course.

[Cute Wolf]

and yes, if without Rome, means no Islam, then Majapahit empire will conquer All asia....... HAHAHAHAAHAH

[plutoboyz]

and yes, if without Rome, means no Islam, then Majapahit empire will conquer All asia....... HAHAHAHAAHAH

but will never whole Java! hahahhahaha....

[plutoboyz]

The World without Rome:

Phoenician seems too distorted. also why chola is in Indonesia? they in fact never managed to conquer anything here. inflience? yes, conquest? no.
also there is any posibility for Native American to expand.

[antisocialmunky]

I wonder if capitalism and humanism would have developed? Or would it have taken a different shape or would we have stayed in a preindustrial cycle of fedual state -> centralized state and back and forth.

[Apázlinemjó]

I wonder if capitalism and humanism would have developed? Or would it have taken a different shape or would we have stayed in a preindustrial cycle of fedual state -> centralized state and back and forth.

Without Rome, we would live on space stations already.

[oudysseos]

The answer to what the world would have been like without the Roman Empire depends entirely on the reason why there would not have been a Roman Empire in the first place.


There are a couple of plausible scenarios.

1. Brennus burns Rome and kills every last man woman and child, sows the fields with salt, and eats all the dogs. After that it's hard to say: the urban societies of the Etruscans were already somewhat in decline by this point, and I can't buy a Samnite or Sabine empire. Possibly without a strong Italian power, Greek influence would have spread up the peninsula.

2. Alexander didn't die in 323 BC, but lived at least another 20 years, and carried out what were reputed to have been his plans for western conquests against Carthage and Sicily. I find it likely that he would have been drawn into the Italian peninsula, and given for the sake of argument that he would have won, that's Rome nipped in the bud. After that, what happens depends on whether Alex ever stopped to consolidate his empire and provide for an orderly succession - assuming that he left an adult male heir, we can posit an Alexandrine Empire lasting for a while, I think. Longer if the Greeks adopted some Roman civic virtues. This scenario is put forward in Mary Renault's The Nature of Alexander the Great.

The successful conquest of Rome by Phyrrus is an alternate version of this scenario, with smaller results - Phyrrus conquers Italy, Sicily and Greece.

3. Rome loses to Carthage in either of the wars. I can't bring myself to believe that Carthage would have eradicated Rome or replaced the population, so the eventual outcome of this is harder to imagine - it possibly might have just meant a delay in events, or a later repeat of scenario #1 - no strong regional power in Italy.

While I would never say that history is inevitable, there are important reasons why Rome succeeded and Carthage, the Greeks and the Celts did not - and just removing Rome via deus ex machina wouldn't necessarily change those conditions. The Greeks had much more conservative and parochial notions of citizenship than the Romans did (as did the Carthaginians), something that limited the ability of both to sustain expansion over time. Geographical position is also very important.

[Brennus]

THAT'S IT! The time on my laptop has just gone 10:40 as I start writing this so I will announce who (in my opinion) has won them self a balloon. I have based my decision on who presented the most logical argument which included as many cultures as possible:

1. Plutoboyz for his convincing map (even if Carthage's importance was emphasized possibly too much) and for his constant input during this discussion. Please accept a balloon.
2. Imperator Invictus.
3. Cute Wolf
4. Ca Putt
5. Oudysseos (did not actually present an alternate future but instead gave the most interesting answer in my opinion).

I would like to thank everyone who participated in the discussions including those not in the top five. In particular i would like to thank Wathcman, Andronikos, Duguntz, Ibn Khaldin and Hannibal Khan the Great as well for educational input. I hope you enjoyed this thread. Thank you all again!

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Hmm... I am Ibn-Khaldun not Ibn Khaldin! Thank you very much.

But this is a nice topic that people can talk about hours and hours.

[Brennus]

Hmm... I am Ibn-Khaldun not Ibn Khaldin! Thank you very much.

But this is a nice topic that people can talk about hours and hours.

I do apologise, sir. I only got out of work a few minutes before writing that.

Well I am happy to let this thread stay open for discussion if people still want to discuss it. I only put in the baloon to attract interest.

[plutoboyz]

THAT'S IT! The time on my laptop has just gone 10:40 as I start writing this so I will announce who (in my opinion) has won them self a balloon. I have based my decision on who presented the most logical argument which included as many cultures as possible:

1. Plutoboyz for his convincing map (even if Carthage's importance was emphasized possibly too much) and for his constant input during this discussion. Please accept a balloon.
2. Imperator Invictus.
3. Cute Wolf
4. Ca Putt
5. Oudysseos (did not actually present an alternate future but instead gave the most interesting answer in my opinion).

I would like to thank everyone who participated in the discussions including those not in the top five. In particular i would like to thank Wathcman, Andronikos, Duguntz, Ibn Khaldin and Hannibal Khan the Great as well for educational input. I hope you enjoyed this thread. Thank you all again!

thank you for the baloon. I'm honored. I'll put it in my sig

[Cute Wolf]

yay, thanks brennus .....

[antisocialmunky]

Without Rome, we would live on space stations already.

People already do.

[Brennus]

People already do.

lol,

[Apázlinemjó]

People already do.

But not like in the science fiction movies. :(

[Watchman]

But not like in the science fiction movies. :(

I want my jetpack, laser gun and flying car too!

[Apázlinemjó]

I want my jetpack, laser gun and flying car too!

Jabba said you would show up. I want a floating toilet made by Jules Verne.