A potentially controversial suggestion

[paleologos]

In my campaign with KH, after I took Syrakousai and the one eleutheroi city in Sicily, the Carthaginian army on the island attempted a siege in Syrakousai.
They were of course wiped out and with a land border established, a total war was inevitable. I took all of Sicily and landed a couple of spies in Africa, where I saw that Carthage and the two closest to it cities were garissoned by a total of five units of troops, two of which were generals' bodyguards, clearly no match for my own greek generals' bodyguards. The temptation was irresistible. So, when I took Carthage it had a population of 26000 more or less and only one unit in it's defence. Now, does anybody else, besides me, see something wrong with this picture?

So, here is the suggestion. A city that is being sieged/assaulted should get a number of defending units drafted out of it's population automatically (zero turn emergency) and with some cost to the economy (regardless of current account) due to the mobilisation of otherwise productive workforce and their number and quality should depend on the number of the residents and the level of the barracks. After (if) the sieging army is defeated the emergency draftees should get disbanded and the city's population restored, minus the casualties. I mean come on! Think realism. A foreign army comes to destroy your world, murder you and your old parents, castrate and enslave your sons and brutally gangrape and enslave your wife and virgin daughters, not at all unlike the traditional Roman way. In situations like these it is normal to expect a total citizens defence. Everybody that is strong enough to hold a rock should be on top of the walls throwing stuff at the attackers, not to mention the ground fighters inside the walls who, by the way, should get a huge moral boost effectively ensuring that all of them will fight to the death. It is unacceptable that I took, perhaps the most populus city on the map at the time, with only two units, which were also enough to depopulate it and plunder it after the battle, regardless of how many units I needed afterwards in order to garisson it.

If this change can be implemented, I strongly postulate that it should be. It will be a major improvement and an upgrade of the game difficulty, especially when it comes to blitzing.
I am looking forward to reading some feedback.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[jirisys]

In my campaign with KH, after I took Syrakousai and the one eleutheroi city in Sicily, the Carthaginian army on the island attempted a siege in Syrakousai.
They were of course wiped out and with a land border established, a total war was inevitable. I took all of Sicily and landed a couple of spies in Africa, where I saw that Carthage and the two closest to it cities were garissoned by a total of five units of troops, two of which were generals' bodyguards, clearly no match for my own greek generals' bodyguards. The temptation was irresistible. So, when I took Carthage it had a population of 26000 more or less and only one unit in it's defence. Now, does anybody else, besides me, see something wrong with this picture?

So, here is the suggestion. A city that is being sieged/assaulted should get a number of defending units drafted out of it's population automatically (zero turn emergency) and with some cost to the economy (regardless of current account) due to the mobilisation of otherwise productive workforce and their number and quality should depend on the number of the residents and the level of the barracks. After (if) the sieging army is defeated the emergency draftees should get disbanded and the city's population restored, minus the casualties. I mean come on! Think realism. A foreign army comes to destroy your world, murder you and your old parents, castrate and enslave your sons and brutally gangrape and enslave your wife and virgin daughters, not at all unlike the traditional Roman way. In situations like these it is normal to expect a total citizens defence. Everybody that is strong enough to hold a rock should be on top of the walls throwing stuff at the attackers, not to mention the ground fighters inside the walls who, by the way, should get a huge moral boost effectively ensuring that all of them will fight to the death. It is unacceptable that I took, perhaps the most populus city on the map at the time, with only two units, which were also enough to depopulate it and plunder it after the battle, regardless of how many units I needed afterwards in order to garisson it.

If this change can be implemented, I strongly postulate that it should be. It will be a major improvement and an upgrade of the game difficulty, especially when it comes to blitzing.
I am looking forward to reading some feedback.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Very good idea... but you should have put this thread on the Europa Barbarorum II forum... i believe EB official upgrades are halted for EBII development...

I find it a very good idea and a deterrer for small armies armies attacking a single unit in a city with over 10000 citiziens

~Jirisys (meh... the true soldiers will be enough, i don't think 5000 men can hold 162 cavalry efficiently without them all dying)

[Hooahguy]

ETW has the same system, pretty good actually. but as jirisys said, work on EBI is done.

[paleologos]

Very good idea... but you should have put this thread on the Europa Barbarorum II forum... i believe EB official upgrades are halted for EBII development...

I find it a very good idea and a deterrer for small armies armies attacking a single unit in a city with over 10000 citiziens

~Jirisys (meh... the true soldiers will be enough, i don't think 5000 men can hold 162 cavalry efficiently without them all dying)

I meant a variety of troops, mostly militia quality, even in cities with high level MICs, invariably missile units and apeleutheroi and a few units with good equipment if the MIC allows it but definitly not elite troops, they should not be allowed in zero turn.

Also there is one thing I do not like about M2TW in relation to RTW. IIRC recruitment in M2TW does not draft people from a settlement and retraining will not be as quick as in RTW, where you can replenish the soldiers or reequip them of up to nine units in one turn. I believe RTW is the one for me, unless M2TW can be changed to resemble RTW in this one.

ETW has the same system, pretty good actually. but as jirisys said, work on EBI is done.

What is ETW?

[anubis88]

What is ETW?

Empire Total War

[Belisarius II]

M2TW can be modded to do what you're suggesting. There are varies garrison script floating about that some mods have used, so it's not impossible for EBII, and may very well be a feature in the mod.

[paleologos]

M2TW can be modded to do what you're suggesting. There are varies garrison script floating about that some mods have used, so it's not impossible for EBII, and may very well be a feature in the mod.

Which part do you reffer to?

[WinsingtonIII]

The problem with garrison scripts is that then the units are there to stay until they die. You cannot delete specific units by script, so the issue is the possibility of the AI bankrupting itself when it gets all of these units and never disbands them. However, other mods with garrison scripts seem to do fine, so it's not that big of a deal. If a garrison script is to be implemented, it should definitely have some variety. Mostly levy type troops but with a few well-equipped units to represent the local nobility/warrior class.

[stratigos vasilios]

M2TW can be modded to do what you're suggesting. There are varies garrison script floating about that some mods have used, so it's not impossible for EBII, and may very well be a feature in the mod.

I think DLV implimented this in their mod with some relative success? But as WinsingtonIII mentioned there problems after the siege (to reiterate: they dont disband, AI can go bankrupt, no diversity in the garrison).

Sorry to slightly move away from the OP, as the "People in Flight" event can be modded (or maybe it's there to begin with?) in MTW2, will that be a likely function with factions in EB2?

[Duguntz]

Can't anybody with modding ability make a mini-mod for garrison script?

[Noble Wrath]

It would be a good thing if such a script could be implemented. But until the problem is solved you can just restrict yourself.
For example, in my Romani campaigns when I want to recreate the first punic war, I invade the Karthadastim heartlands only with decent armies and after the landing I wait for 4 turns before making any move, thus giving the stupid AI time to bring back their forces which are taking a stroll in Mauretania or Phasania. I combine this with teleporting enemy fullstacks in Italy and avoiding capturing Lilibeo until the end of the war. You will be amazed at the number and the intensity of battles you will have to go through if you follow such simple house rules.

[Zarax]

Don't take this as an official endorsement but you may want to take a look at the garrison scripts in XGM.
I'm pretty sure DimeBagHo can give you a hand if you ask him nicely.

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

As long as it's not the insane XC garrison script.....

[Zarax]

... which is entirely optional and customizable.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

It would be a good thing if such a script could be implemented. But until the problem is solved you can just restrict yourself.
For example, in my Romani campaigns when I want to recreate the first punic war, I invade the Karthadastim heartlands only with decent armies and after the landing I wait for 4 turns before making any move, thus giving the stupid AI time to bring back their forces which are taking a stroll in Mauretania or Phasania. I combine this with teleporting enemy fullstacks in Italy and avoiding capturing Lilibeo until the end of the war. You will be amazed at the number and the intensity of battles you will have to go through if you follow such simple house rules.

Good ideas.

Another way to make things realistically tough for yourself is to make yourself take a very weakly-defended city TWICE. Assault it the first time, using just rams on the gates and ladders on the walls. Do not damage the walls. Once you've won the battle, occupy the city, don't enslave or exterminate, and don't destroy any buildings. Don't build Military Occupation either. Then IMMEDIATELY move your army OUT of the city. Put taxes up to Very High. With no garrison and Public Order probably at 0%, the city will revolt very quickly indeed, getting a new, larger garrison as it does so! This new garrison is the mobilised citizen's militia! Now you have a real fight on your hands to take the city the second time round.

[Cute Wolf]

hmm, I think if this will be implemented as a submod after all, better we have a lists of important cities who will receive such garrison militia script:

[paleologos]

...In situations like these it is normal to expect a total citizens defence. Everybody that is strong enough to hold a rock should be on top of the walls throwing stuff at the attackers, not to mention the ground fighters inside the walls who, by the way, should get a huge moral boost effectively ensuring that all of them will fight to the death. It is unacceptable that I took, perhaps the most populus city on the map at the time, with only two units, which were also enough to depopulate it and plunder it after the battle, regardless of how many units I needed afterwards in order to garisson it...

I meant that every city in the game should have the ability to defend itself, even with crappy militia units. It is not normal that their population would not be willing to "die for their families", or to defend their world, their way of life. Even player owned cities that are loyal enough to only need a garisson of one unit for police duties should be able to mount a citizens defence in case of threat. The Hellenes were famous for that and as a matter of fact the concept of the hoplite was generated because of the need for defence in the absence of the ability to sustain a standing professional army. By the way, because they did not sustain a standing army they all had stone walls, even smaller towns, but not villages. What I meant to say is that this is not a matter of difficulty and challenge alone. It has to do with overall realism, for example depopulating a conquered city yields profits that are proportional to the population size. But if half the population die fighting the profits will be less. I don't think that an army that is conjured up from thin air is enough remedy.

I am afraid that we are not about to see what I am posting about, which is an automatic recruitment of a zero-turn-to-recruit militia army by the A.I. in emergencies and also the same option available for player owned cities. With work being done mostly, if not only, on EBII, realism may take another hit; IIRC M2TW does not reduce the population of a settlement when a unit is recruited. Personel in that game IS conjured up from thin air. Anyway, what are you gonna do?

[WinsingtonIII]

realism may take another hit; IIRC M2TW does not reduce the population of a settlement when a unit is recruited. Personel in that game IS conjured up from thin air. Anyway, what are you gonna do?

I actually think the M2TW recruitment system is more realistic than the RTW one. It doesn't make sense to be able to recruit the same unit over and over again simply depending on overall population. The individual unit pools in M2TW that limit how often you can recruit that unit type are much better. This way we probably won't be seeing AS Agyraspide spam because Agyraspides will only be recruitable once every 12 turns (who knows how long it will actually be, but we'll see) or something like that.

[pikeman]

I bought M2TW and I find it very hard to get used to compared with RTW....

[moonburn]

i remmeber playing an old strategy game and in that game every city and fort had a kind of "invisible" army in it wich was the garrison so maybe create such a kind of army for every city with the region basic unit of militia could work ? make it like 10% of the population automatically spawns in the city when a batle is started and then disapears once the batlemap ends ?

i mean i don´t know how that could work but it sure added a nice level to the gameplay, also for balance issues those militias shouldn´t appear if the city had recently been taken (in the last 10 turns) or if the attacking faction shares the same culture as the city udner attack and the defenders are from a diferent culture

also these militias shouldn´t contribute to the "garrison" level of a region

if it could be implemented that they only appear in the batlemap it would work great imho but ofc in the automatic resolve batle it would have to be tweaked properly

[WinsingtonIII]

i remmeber playing an old strategy game and in that game every city and fort had a kind of "invisible" army in it wich was the garrison so maybe create such a kind of army for every city with the region basic unit of militia could work ? make it like 10% of the population automatically spawns in the city when a batle is started and then disapears once the batlemap ends ?

You can make them spawn, but you can't disband them afterwards; engine limitations unfortunately. I think you can disband every single unit of a certain type through a script, but that's not really helpful unless there is only one type of garrison unit used for all factions... and that wouldn't be very historical

[jirisys]

You can make them spawn, but you can't disband them afterwards; engine limitations unfortunately. I think you can disband every single unit of a certain type through a script, but that's not really helpful unless there is only one type of garrison unit used for all factions... and that wouldn't be very historical

Create each faction's garrison unit with different names and types, yet use the script to disband them at the end of each turn?

Just a suggestion

Regards

~Jirisys (too many Enter key pressing)

[Rahwana]

Create each faction's garrison unit with different names and types, yet use the script to disband them at the end of each turn?

Just a suggestion

Regards

~Jirisys (too many Enter key pressing)

if you made each culture got each garrison units, and made eastern and western hellenes garrison unit as one unit (quite possible) then you'll need:
- hellene
- roman
- semitic
- nomad
- barbarian
- eastern
and that was 6 unit slots... while maybe we can assign roman milites for roman, citizen militia for semitic, militia archers for nomads, tribal warband for barbarian, and levies for easterners...

[WinsingtonIII]

while maybe we can assign roman milites for roman, citizen militia for semitic, militia archers for nomads, tribal warband for barbarian, and levies for easterners...

But if you're using existing, recruitable units, then if you script disband all of them after the siege is lifted, you will be deleting all units of this type for this faction, including the recruited ones. Plus, what happens if there are multiple sieges going on at once? If one ends, then you end up deleting the garrison script for the other city under siege as well....

If you want a garrison script, you're pretty much going to have to give up on trying to disband the units (no mod I know of has managed to pull it off), which may end up bankrupting the AI or giving the player lots of free units (if you give the player the garrison script too, lots of mods do not though, which I understand from a gameplay perspective but is kind of silly when one rational you give for a garrison script is historical accuracy).

[seienchin]

I also think 6 -12 new units just for garrisoning would be great, but the question is, if the modders are willing to do so. ;)
If you would make a submod for EB you would have to take alex.exe, because its the only one with more units slots.
You could just copy for example the lugoai modell and give it another name etc. and it wouldnt be too hard to mod.

[paleologos]

What is the limit in unit slots (if any)?

[Cute Wolf]

I suggest adding 2 or 3 unit per besieged settlements is not too hard to have about, but not made the AI crippled, because they will be cheap units:
- Romans : 2 rorarii
- W hellenes : 2 hoplitai haploi 1 akontistai
- E hellenes + Hay & Pontos : 3 pantodapoi
- Celts : 2 lugoae, 1 Gaesatae (just strip off your cloth and took drugs are easy enough right ... oh wait, there is no Aesterix)
- Sweboz : 1 Gaezosfulxom Fryod, 2 Jugundiz
- Lusotann : 2 Caetranann
- Getai : 2 Drapanai, 1 Komatai
- Sauro / Saka / Pahlava : 2 basic HA unit
- Sabyn : 2 bnei shevet aravim

[Fluvius Camillus]

I thougth this was already in EBII?

In some preview they told about the new way Kleurochoi Phalanghitai were going to be used. They would receive very high upkeep but fast and easy recruitment (as a last rescue). The units would take up the free upkeep slots of the city. However, this only resolves the problem for Western and Eastern Hellenes. And to get the AI to understand this.

~Fluvius

[WinsingtonIII]

I thougth this was already in EBII?

In some preview they told about the new way Kleurochoi Phalanghitai were going to be used. They would receive very high upkeep but fast and easy recruitment (as a last rescue). The units would take up the free upkeep slots of the city. However, this only resolves the problem for Western and Eastern Hellenes. And to get the AI to understand this.

~Fluvius

That wasn't actually a garrison script though I don't think. Yes, they will be meant to be used that way, but I doubt the AI will realize that. The garrison script is primarily just to give the AI cities a defense because it rarely garrisons its cities effectively.

[Mulceber]

I'd like to point out though that while it's true that often times the city would hurriedly call up a militia to fight, it often seems to have happened the other way as well: the invading force defeats the professional army and the city simply throws open its gates and begs not to be harmed. So in the interest of consistency, if we're to create levies to defend the city, we should also find some way of modding that. Personally, I think the system is decent as it is. -M