So, I am the only one thinking things are going downhill in Europe?

**Skullheadhq** · 05-08-2010, 17:31

Originally Posted by Fragony

There are lies, bold lies and leftist truths. Fear huh, well drilled

It's a lie they steal because they're poor, they steal because they're Arab, right Frag?
Also, you should stop reading 'De Telegraaf', it's populist crap.

**Fragony** · 05-08-2010, 17:47

They aren't automatically victims of society because they are Arabs.

And yeah Telegraaf sucks I read Elsevier for news.

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 05-08-2010, 18:33

Let's not trend toward personal attacks or trolling please, keep things on track.

**Louis VI the Fat** · 05-08-2010, 23:32

Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

It's a lie they steal because they're poor, they steal because they're Arab, right Frag?

Frags posted an interesting article by a Danish psychologist. Not that I agree with the conclusions.

Muslims make up 60%-70% of the prison population in France, and apparantly Denmark too, yet they constitute by no means 60-70% of poor people. This would suggest that poverty is not the cause indeed.

Another well observed phenomenon is that the first generation are mostly hard-working people, doing low-wage jobs. It is their sons and grandsons who fill the crime statistics. You know - the boys with their expensive mopeds, newest cell phones, and designer clothes.

**Hax** · 05-09-2010, 00:31

Muslims make up 60%-70% of the prison population in France, and apparantly Denmark too, yet they constitute by no means 60-70% of poor people. This would suggest that poverty is not the cause indeed.

A: 60-70% of all prisoners in France are Muslim
B: Thus, Islam is the reason of them going to prison.

It's a non sequitur. One should examine the precise reason why they've been sent to prison. I don't think Islam has too much to do with it. If Morocco or Algeria had been Christian, I think there'd be quite a portion of Algerians and Moroccans in prison as well.

Another well observed phenomenon is that the first generation are mostly hard-working people, doing low-wage jobs. It is their sons and grandsons who fill the crime statistics. You know - the boys with their expensive mopeds, newest cell phones, and designer clothes.

Which is quite intruiging. I personally think that one of the main reasons for them commiting those crimes is the fact that they feel neither Arab nor French. I think there are several factors that one should keep in mind;

1) The original immigrants were people of the lowest socio-economical class. There is a tendency that shows that these people are also not the most intelligent people.
2) Their children suffer from something of a cultural shock, as they feel neither French nor Arab. A low intelligence combined with a lack of social structure or a cultural identity would increase the chances of those people engaging in crime.

On the other hand, we have also noticed that over the last ten years or so, that in the Netherlands, there is a continual growth of Morrocan and Turkish people going to university. I don't think the multicultural society has totally failed, I just think we handled it in a wrong way. And no, the "good" way is not expediating all of them.

Interestingly, the University of Twente has done research on Morrocans and Turks living in autochtonous places, and apparently, if there are a lot of autochtones living in an area, the immigrants feel more Dutch. I think this is something of an instinctive reaction of adaptation. It also (kinda) refutes the statements by this Danish psychologist. So basically; the whiter the neighbourhood, the more Dutch immigrants feel.

Link, in Dutch: http://www.uvt.nl/onderzoek/uitgesproken/havekes/

**Fragony** · 05-09-2010, 05:33

If you read the article you would have known she blames it on the culture of people from islamic cultures, not the islam. True or not, what is most interesting is that such conclusions weren't allowed professionally, only social-economic considerations are to be considered.

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 05-09-2010, 05:46

Immigrants to the USA tended to be no smarter, and no less intelligent, than any other largish group of people. They did tend to be woefully undereducated. Is that not also being replicated in Europe?

Louis:

I suspect the bourgoie tendencies go along with your advancing age -- remember Churchill's quip on switching parties -- and not so much to do with any racist attitude. I suspect that you'd interact just fine with anyone from these backgrounds if they sat down for polite conversation and a hunk of baguette. It's the behavior/attitude set you have trouble tolerating, not the irrelevant difference in melanin.

**Fragony** · 05-09-2010, 08:12

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Immigrants to the USA tended to be no smarter, and no less intelligent, than any other largish group of people. They did tend to be woefully undereducated. Is that not also being replicated in Europe?

What if they don't care about education? These guys are a lost generation and they don't give a crap, they care about nice cars and Prada shoes, and no they don't have to watch the people they rob having such cars and shoes, they rob grannies. The rare one that achieves something by hard work and ambition they spit on, 'verkaast' (cheesed) is an insult.

**Ironside** · 05-09-2010, 09:46

Originally Posted by Fragony

What if they don't care about education? These guys are a lost generation and they don't give a crap, they care about nice cars and Prada shoes, and no they don't have to watch the people they rob having such cars and shoes, they rob grannies. The rare one that achieves something by hard work and ambition they spit on, 'verkaast' (cheesed) is an insult.

The question on why they do this should obviously follow. Particulary if they are children of working (if still lower class) parents.