The United Kingdom Elections 2010

[rory_20_uk]

Income disparity doe not mean happiness. Zombabwe got close to equal income with almost everyone starving to death. North Korea and Cuba are also good on income disparity.
Talent had long gone by Thatcher's time. Oh, and that was over 15 years ago. Odd that it was not fixed under Labour...

[Banquo's Ghost]

I fear she must also have destroyed a sense of humour right across Europe.

[Idaho]

Brown has never had an endorsement from an election in his own party or the country, I think the legitimacy of any Brown administration is suspect at best.

I don't think you can vote for Brown unless you are an elector in his constituency. We vote for the local candidate, and leave it up to them who they make leader. Unless you are one of these frightful oiks who think our electoral system makes no sense.

Tragically, this is no longer the case. Look at that frightful Thatcher woman, a grocer's daughter for Pity's sake, going around giving the peasantry ownership of their own homes and reducing their tax burden that should be grinding them into submission.

You mean selling off social housing and removing mental health provision so that we now have a massive homeless/begging problem that was unheard of 30 years ago?

And by reducing the tax burden... I assume you are getting confused about which sections of society actually pay the most tax.

[al Roumi]

Income disparity doe not mean happiness. Zombabwe got close to equal income with almost everyone starving to death. North Korea and Cuba are also good on income disparity.
Talent had long gone by Thatcher's time. Oh, and that was over 15 years ago. Odd that it was not fixed under Labour...

Or not, how long do you think it takes for generational change to show through?

[rory_20_uk]

So... it can be caused by the Tories in about 12 years, but not resolved by Labour in almost the same length of time...

[gaelic cowboy]

@ rory Check your history my good man income can be destroyed in seconds but can take years even centuries to repair especially if an entire way of life or system of production is removed

[al Roumi]

So... it can be caused by the Tories in about 12 years, but not resolved by Labour in almost the same length of time...

Honestly? I imagine we are only now living through the implications of Thatcherism.

If you think of the changes labour made -on education, health, job-seekers' allowance etc, they were never going to result in an immediate step change in equality. It'll take the kids and young people who went through Labour's reforms to grow, graduate, get jobs and settle for their impact to show -for good or worse.

[Furunculus]

i'd hate to see the state of this country if we hadn't had thatcher, it might bear a striking resemblance to 1990's east germany.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Believe me, the Welsh speak Welsh, they also swear in it; I can tell you that from personal experience.

Not down south around bridgend, newport and cardiff way. Meeting someone who speaks welsh is something of a novelty where I live, even the majority of my friends can say more in other langauges than Welsh. Maybe its different in mid wales and the north but the two places I have lived in the south have very very few welsh speakers, off the top of my head I now as many people fluent in polish as welsh (two incase your intrested) When I still went to school a girl came joined our year who could speak welsh and it was a novelty to everyone, outside of her there wasn't a single fluent person in my year.

Also less sure on this one, but im sure a fluent friend told me there are no swear words in welsh, you could construct an insulting sentence but theres no actual swear words... my memorys a little hazy there though...

in mid-wales which is supposedly very welshy, i often come across the chippy-welsh types who will deliberately try to talk in welsh to make a point of excluding any english, but even they often cannot comfortably converse with their friends as easily as they could in english.

Ah boys, try living with a Welsh womean for two years; it's a wild Celtic rollacoaster.

Just take my work for it, ok, there are 600,000 native-Welsh speakers in Wales, so Beskar claim that, "not even the Welsh speak Welsh" is incorrect, perhaps even tautological given that the Welsh-speakers define "Welshness" as use of said language.

What you are essentially saying is that you want the same thing we have here in Australia. Federal and State government, where in your case the states will be NI, Wales, Scotland and England.

No, I'd rather just have the one Parliament; and effective County Councils.

Bollox - to quote the most useful Irish phrase I've ever learned.

Thatcher has destroyed the British lower classes. Income inequality in Britain is now back to the level it was in Dickens' time.
Social mobility is the lowest in Europe. Talent is no longer decisive for succes in Britain. Your parents' class is.

Coolius, to quote the most useful Latin phrase I ever learned. If anyone destroyed the working class is was Labour, when they used unhealthy sbsidies to hold up dying industries. All Thatcher did was pull the life-support 20 years later and put the patient out of its misery. Had Labour indulged in more sanguine ecenomic practices during the 50's and 60's we might have aBritish ship-building industry today.

[al Roumi]

i'd hate to see the state of this country if we hadn't had thatcher, it might bear a striking resemblance to 1990's east germany.

Yeah, we'd have teh STASI and everything.

[Furunculus]

Yeah, we'd have teh STASI and everything.

1990's being post-Stasi under most contemporary views of recent history, no?

i was more referring to a poverty stricken post-industrial wasteland:

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/...8/IMG_0035.jpg

[al Roumi]

1990's being post-Stasi under most contemporary views of recent history, no?

i was more referring to a poverty stricken post-industrial wasteland:

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/...8/IMG_0035.jpg

ERm, yes...?

So who was it wot boosted the UK's switch from manufacturing to services, and in particular the city?

[rory_20_uk]

There's still time: ballooning debt, off balance sheet pensions and good old PFI.

[Furunculus]

ERm, yes...?

So who was it wot boosted the UK's switch from manufacturing to services, and in particular the city?

what your missing is the fact that this situation would persist today, with moribund industries propped up on life-support with ever more ridiculous public subsidy.

those services generate a vast amount of tax revenue which labour has poured back into its social programs in stupendous quantities, rant against the financial services sector after you have implemented a better alternative, not before.

we would all be much poorer today had we not had thatcher, but our poorness might be more equal if that makes you feel better.......................?

[al Roumi]

what your missing is the fact that this situation would persist today, with moribund industries propped up on life-support with ever more ridiculous public subsidy.

those services generate a vast amount of tax revenue which labour has poured back into its social programs in stupendous quantities, rant against the financial services sector after you have implemented a better alternative, not before.

we would all be much poorer today had we not had thatcher, but our poorness might be more equal if that makes you feel better.......................?

Yes UK manufacturing was no-longer competitive (crudely: costs too high, output & quality too low), but are there not ways of improvement which do not entail such a savage diss-embowling? They might have led to there being at least a couple of successful UK owned manufacturing companies.

These services which socialist parties advocate, I take it that you think they are the wrong way to go to improve equality and promote positive social change? That is what they are there for of course, not just to waste public money.

Some state support seems to have been working in France and Germany, they still produce things there!

[Idaho]

i'd hate to see the state of this country if we hadn't had thatcher, it might bear a striking resemblance to 1990's east germany.

Or a striking resemblance to Norway or France.

[Furunculus]

given the state of the UK in the seventies, when it was the sick man of europe, i sincerely doubt that.

[Beskar]

"Gordon Brown announces intention to step down as PM as formal talks are to open between Labour and the Liberal Democrats."

Well good news, whatever the outcome, there is no Gordon Brown.

What would be good if is the Labour-left in particular works with the Lib Dems in any coalition talks, which might actually result in a left-wing Government for a change since these past 30 years or so.

[Furunculus]

if that does happen there will be another election within the year.

and given that the Lib-Dems have announced nothing but micro-detail on a few topics as needing "further clarification" they will be punished at that election if they walk away from the party with the largest mandate, and labour will be further punished for running an ineffective government.

i would be quite happy if the Lib-Dems jump ship now, as the result would be a Conservative majority government before 2011.

[al Roumi]

if that does happen there will be another election within the year.

and given that the Lib-Dems have announced nothing but micro-detail on a few topics as needing "further clarification" they will be punished at that election if they walk away from the party with the largest mandate, and labour will be further punished for running an ineffective government.

i would be quite happy if the Lib-Dems jump ship now, as the result would be a Conservative majority government before 2011.

Quite bullish given the Tories didn't really win outright this time either...

I'm not quite sure what Brown is proposing... 3 things essentially, which I'm having trouble synchronising in my head:

1) to step down as Labour leader after a labour leadership contest before the autumn coference,

2) form a coalition govt with lib, SNP and Plaid Cymru

3) rule as PM (of the coalition?) until a new labour leader is picked.

All I can think is that this would be TWO unelected labour leaders within 4 years and that the premise or justification for setting up the 2nd's government would also quite ironicaly be to introduce a more democratic voting system. LOL

[Beskar]

and given that the Lib-Dems have announced nothing but micro-detail on a few topics as needing "further clarification" they will be punished at that election if they walk away from the party with the largest mandate, and labour will be further punished for running an ineffective government.

Actually, a coalition of the two would mean the Lib-Lab coalition would have the largest mandate in both seats and votes.

[Furunculus]

the political system exists as it is, which is a first past the post winner takes all system, and the electorates expectations are still governed by this, not as you wish them to be, and the utter failure of the lib-dems to sustain the surge tells me that reform of the voting system wasn't deemed to be very important.

[Beskar]

the political system exists as it is, which is a first past the post winner takes all system, and the electorates expectations are still governed by this, not as you wish them to be, and the utter failure of the lib-dems to sustain the surge tells me that reform of the voting system wasn't deemed to be very important.

Actually, the threat of a Conservative Government was more important, and those who wanted rid of Brown.

Also, I don't tread on Party Lines remember? First Past the Post means those people elected represent those areas first, the party second, therefore them working for the great good, in being in a coalition to better serve the interests of those who elected and of those in the area, is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[tibilicus]

Well the latest developments just reveal how desperate New Labour is. The simple fact is that Labour cannot form a stable government, unless we wish to be held to ransom by the nationalists. This doesn't worry the Labour Party though, a party which would sell its soul to remain in power.

The disgusting attempt to try and pry the Liberals away from what quite frankly is the only sensible arrangement, whether your a Tory or not, shows the extent to which Labour only cares about its own self gain. The simple fact is a Labour rag tag government will have very little legitimacy, will be incredibly unstable and will cost the tax payer billions, or the English tax payer at least, due to the fact the nationalists have put increased funds to their respective countries on the table for any negotiations.

Then again, it might also be a beneficial arrangement, if only to show how our democracy would look under PR, with the backroom deals, the illegitimate governments and the individual parties own desire for power over any electoral endorsement.

[Subotan]

Bollox - to quote the most useful Irish phrase I've ever learned.

Thatcher has destroyed the British lower classes. Income inequality in Britain is now back to the level it was in Dickens' time.
Social mobility is the lowest in Europe. Talent is no longer decisive for succes in Britain. Your parents' class is.

We must know our place.

unlike Louis, I am full agreement with the sentiment.

this irrational thatcher hatred is deeply unhealthy for those who exhibit it, especially for Brits for whom it makes an actual difference.

I live in an area which has a deep, deep hatred of Thatcher. Her legacy is that of folk history, with her persona taking on a similar role to the Devil in Medieval times. And rightly so. Thatcher sank her teeth into the North and ripped out it's throat.

Income disparity doe not mean happiness. Zombabwe got close to equal income with almost everyone starving to death. North Korea and Cuba are also good on income disparity.
Talent had long gone by Thatcher's time. Oh, and that was over 15 years ago. Odd that it was not fixed under Labour...

North Korea is actually a very unequal society, with Party bosses enjoying extremely high standards of living whilst the majority of North Koreans suffer tremendous abuses. Income equality is not worth Communism.

[Banquo's Ghost]

i would be quite happy if the Lib-Dems jump ship now, as the result would be a Conservative majority government before 2011.

That might prove to be wishful thinking. The Tories have just announced they will give the Liberals a referendum on AV. Almost certainly, the electoral system in Britain is now set to change.

Extraordinary times.

[Subotan]

What's with all the referenda lately? What happened to Parliamentary sovereignty?

[Beskar]

On STV, I thought it was? Only labour wanted AV.

[Banquo's Ghost]

On STV, I thought it was? Only labour wanted AV.

No, it was Alternative Vote.

There are so many tragedies of Gordon Brown's abysmal premiership, but two stand out: If he had called an election in 2007, he would have been re-elected and thence probably been less volcanic, tortured and had greater stature. The second is that had he stood down two months ago, Labour would probably have won the election outright, since the country clearly didn't much fancy a Tory government.

[Beskar]

For those wanting more information - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

What is funny though, is this message from the telegraph.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...ernative-vote/

I also love how he attacks it, based on the Conservatives might lose some seats, but he doesn't comment on how the Lib dems gained significantly more seats, thus being a fairer, as they actually gain a more represention of the seats, according to the voters. Amongst other things. I love his biased journalism.

Also, as one of the commenters says "How can you recast according to Alternate Vote without knowing what people’s second choice would be?". In the same breath, how can you recast not knowing what the voters first choice might have been? For example, UKIP or Green.