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Thread: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

  1. #61
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    I, for one, am furious about "We couldn't locate the page."
    Hmm, yeah, seems to have disappeared, how about this then?

    And here's a related one from CNN.

    I'm not an expert on that subject but ignoring the problems for years if not decades seems worse to me than having an accident and then trying your best to solve the problem.
    Of course when it happens close to the US it creates more outrage than someone ruining a big region in Africa or is that just Amnesty and CNN turning a non-issue into an oil spill?


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  2. #62
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    I don't get that. He didn't cause it; only with hindsight is there any talk of the government somehow preventing this. BP and the rig operators caused it, and they're doing about all they can. Except for the people who died, of course.

    This stupid reporting about Obama somehow being to blame for the long cleanup is ridiculous; worse yet it encourages more stupidity, overreactions by the government to show they're doing something.

    CR
    There seems to be some apetite in turning this into Obama's Katrina.....the fact that this is BP's problem and not the government's like the hurricane was won´t deter the mudslingers...

    like it was said above...if today's move doesn´t work there is a definite solution for this...the problem is that it will take 2 months to put into place....at god knows what price in terms of the enviroment of the area...

    I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. ...It's the only way to be sure
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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  3. #63
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    I read a detailed article in the Wall St Journal, already linked in the thread by Hosakawa Tito, and it seems BP made a series of decisions based on reducing the time to completion that reduced the safety margin. Taking more time to put in better safeguards, it seems, could well have avoided the whole mess. So it could well be that people have died, and the rest of the oil industry that doesn't screw up will be subject to a bunch more regulations again because BP wanted to do things cheaper and faster, plus this time there's massive ecological damage.

    Of course it won't be until the US Chemical Safety Board issues it's report (months from now; they write thorough reports) that we'll really know what happened and why.

    CR
    Last edited by Crazed Rabbit; 05-28-2010 at 02:44.
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  4. #64
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    and people argued against regulation, when it would have prevented this happening.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
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  5. #65
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    and people argued against regulation, when it would have prevented this happening.
    A prohibition on drilling would have prevented it. Regulation? Possibly, but possibly not. Remember, you can only establish regulations covering forseeable problems. I strongly suspect that coping with a major explosion such as occurred wasn't really considered and certainly wouldn't have been rated likely enough to warrant meticulous regulation.

    Regulation has its place, but mostly its to prevent repeat occurrences.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  6. #66

    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Loony stuff like nukes?
    What if nuking it makes the hole bigger?
    Wooooo!!!

  7. #67
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan View Post
    What if nuking it makes the hole bigger?
    The pressure at that depth would force good chuck of explosion down I would say the hole would be squashed flat and blocked.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  8. #68
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Looks as though the top kill did not work. Dang it.

    Typically, you know pretty quickly if a top kill works. BP has been pumping the kill since Wednesday, trying a number of tactics, including junk shots. Their announcement last night that it would be at least through the weekend before if they know the results of the kill doesn't ring true to me. Certainly they know a lot more than what they are saying.

    Recall that a top kill will work only if enough back pressure can be generated in the leaking wellhead to allow the pumped mud to overcome the pressure from the well, turn the flow around, and then build enough hydrostatic head to overcome the formation pressure. The junk shot was designed to do just that, but apparently BP had decided to try just mud for the first effort. I believe that the high rate that BP pumped the mud washed out the cracks in the riser, actually reducing back pressure. The cracks in the riser are where you saw the mud flowing if you watched the live feed of the top kill the last couple of days. As a side note, I do find it interesting that the BP feed no longer includes the bent riser view of the last couple of days,and now looks like the end of the riser where the riser insertion tool had been used previously.

    Because of the washed out riser cracks, the bridging material pumped in for the junk shot probably can't clog up the riser and BOP enough to overcome the flowing pressure and allow mud to go down the well, so the mud they are pumping is likely just going into the kill and chokes valves and coming out the top of the BOP.

    -edit-

    It's official.
    Last edited by Lemur; 05-29-2010 at 23:38.

  9. #69
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    [I]t seems BP made a series of decisions based on reducing the time to completion that reduced the safety margin.
    More info is emerging that trends toward that conclusion.

    Internal documents from BP show that there were serious problems and safety concerns with the Deepwater Horizon rig [...] The problems involved the well casing and the blowout preventer, which are considered critical pieces in the chain of events that led to the disaster on the rig.

    The documents show that in March, after several weeks of problems on the rig, BP was struggling with a loss of “well control.” And as far back as 11 months ago, it was concerned about the well casing and the blowout preventer.

    On June 22, for example, BP engineers expressed concerns that the metal casing the company wanted to use might collapse under high pressure.

    “This would certainly be a worst-case scenario,” Mark E. Hafle, a senior drilling engineer at BP, warned in an internal report. “However, I have seen it happen so know it can occur.”

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Apparently the next plan is to have robots saw off part of the pipe and fit some sort of cover on. The danger, of course, is that if that fails then the whole pipe is opened up and leaking.

    I wonder how BP's going to pay for all the damage. I have heard of rumors (and just rumors) going around the refining industry that BP will sell off their US refineries.

    More info is emerging that trends toward that conclusion.
    In refining accidents and the like, the answer is nearly always one thing; human error.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A prohibition on drilling would have prevented it. Regulation? Possibly, but possibly not. Remember, you can only establish regulations covering forseeable problems. I strongly suspect that coping with a major explosion such as occurred wasn't really considered and certainly wouldn't have been rated likely enough to warrant meticulous regulation.

    Regulation has its place, but mostly its to prevent repeat occurrences.
    Tougher envorimental restrictions on american cars would've prevented this, as that's the only way to get a prohibition on drilling.

    If we were all driving electric cars, we wouldn't see things like this.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  12. #72
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Tougher envorimental restrictions on american cars would've prevented this, as that's the only way to get a prohibition on drilling.

    If we were all driving electric cars, we wouldn't see things like this.
    How so????? most lecky comes from dirty fossil fuels
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    How so????? most lecky comes from dirty fossil fuels
    That's your own fault for not building enough hydro-electricity.

    Here, almost all the electricity comes from hydro-electricity. Which is completely clean.

    EDIT: And at any rate, even if the electricity comes from a coal plant, an electric car would still be better. It costs about a dollar for enough electricity to drive some 100km. Think you can do that with a combustion engine...?
    Last edited by HoreTore; 05-31-2010 at 17:33.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    That's your own fault for not building enough hydro-electricity.

    Here, almost all the electricity comes from hydro-electricity. Which is completely clean.
    Your clearly know nothing about Hydro-Power it's not suitable everywhere
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    EDIT: And at any rate, even if the electricity comes from a coal plant, an electric car would still be better. It costs about a dollar for enough electricity to drive some 100km. Think you can do that with a combustion engine...?
    Petrol is still more efficient way to generate energy to drive the car, electricity will not generate enough charge to match a full tank of petrol in speed or distance
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Your clearly know nothing about Hydro-Power it's not suitable everywhere
    Is it my fault your country didn't have the sense to get yourself some big mountains and some proper rivers....?

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Petrol is still more efficient way to generate energy to drive the car, electricity will not generate enough charge to match a full tank of petrol in speed or distance
    Depends on where you're driving. An electric car is more than sufficient for what 90% of us drive in a day.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 05-31-2010 at 17:40.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Is it my fault your country didn't have the sense to get yourself some big mountains and some proper rivers....?
    obviously they were stolen by the Vikings so we got Brian Boru to kick your asses
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    That's your own fault for not building enough hydro-electricity.

    Here, almost all the electricity comes from hydro-electricity. Which is completely clean.

    EDIT: And at any rate, even if the electricity comes from a coal plant, an electric car would still be better. It costs about a dollar for enough electricity to drive some 100km. Think you can do that with a combustion engine...?
    In Washington state the stupid hippies got a referendum passed that classified hydro-power (which we've got a lot of, but the hippies dislike it because it's harder for some fish) as a non-renewable energy source. So instead electric companies will have to invest in much less efficient wind and solar power to get the renewable energy quota.

    Oh, and as for what I can do with a combustion engine; drive more than 100 miles in a day. Turns out that's quite useful in America.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Oh, and as for what I can do with a combustion engine; drive more than 100 miles in a day. Turns out that's quite useful in America.

    CR
    Most of the worlds population live in big cities, and we do not care about that.

    And what's stopping you from having two cars; one electric for driving short distances, and one petrol/hybrid for longer trips...?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    And what's stopping you from having two cars; one electric for driving short distances, and one petrol/hybrid for longer trips...?
    Are you also getting free cars in Norway?

  21. #81

    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane View Post
    Are you also getting free cars in Norway?
    I'm sorry, do you live in a third world country?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  23. #83
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Nope, just one where cars cost big money.

    Ajax

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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by ajaxfetish View Post
    Nope, just one where cars cost big money.

    Ajax
    Heck, even I had two cars when I lived with my ex. On a student loan. And I live in a country where cars are at least twice as expensive as in yours. Get real, we can all afford both an electric car and a petrol car - assuming you can afford a car in the first place.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 05-31-2010 at 20:07.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  25. #85

    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Second try; for some reason the forum/internets ended up eating my previous post. @Mods: please do not delete the empty post, because it points to a problem with the forum software -- the forum should've rejected my empty post for not containing the minimum of required characters. I'll tell Tosa in a minute.

    Petrol (internal combustion) engines are in fact terribly inefficient compared to electric engines -- both at delivering speed and at delivering torque. Diesels are significantly better than petrol engines, but still not nearly as good as electric engines. The one thing petrol and diesel engines have going for them is that you can store a lot of energy in a relatively small form-factor: say a car-tank. This is much more difficult with batteries or capacitators (much the same): it is not possible to store those amounts of energy in this fashion in a similar volume.

    Incidentally diesel power locomotives are usually a hybrid: diesel powered generators to run the electric engines which run the train.
    - Tellos Athenaios
    CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread


    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  26. #86
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    Second try; for some reason the forum/internets ended up eating my previous post. @Mods: please do not delete the empty post, because it points to a problem with the forum software -- the forum should've rejected my empty post for not containing the minimum of required characters. I'll tell Tosa in a minute.

    Petrol (internal combustion) engines are in fact terribly inefficient compared to electric engines -- both at delivering speed and at delivering torque. Diesels are significantly better than petrol engines, but still not nearly as good as electric engines. The one thing petrol and diesel engines have going for them is that you can store a lot of energy in a relatively small form-factor: say a car-tank. This is much more difficult with batteries or capacitators (much the same): it is not possible to store those amounts of energy in this fashion in a similar volume.

    Incidentally diesel power locomotives are usually a hybrid: diesel powered generators to run the electric engines which run the train.
    Indeed!

    And who on earth said that you had to buy that Audi instead of a Prius, eh?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  27. #87
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    And who on earth said that you had to buy that Audi instead of a Prius, eh?
    Why Jeremy Clarkson of course who else?????
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Most of the worlds population live in big cities, and we do not care about that.

    And what's stopping you from having two cars; one electric for driving short distances, and one petrol/hybrid for longer trips...?
    You mentioned America:
    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Tougher envorimental restrictions on american cars would've prevented this, as that's the only way to get a prohibition on drilling.
    And in America, even in large cities, it matters. And buying two cars because one is useless for long trips is stupid.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    You mentioned America:


    And in America, even in large cities, it matters. And buying two cars because one is useless for long trips is stupid.

    CR
    ....And could you please explain why you can't buy a hybrid....?

    And why on earth is it stupid to have a second car you can use back and forth to work and the grocery store at almost zero cost...? most families already have two cars, one of which is usually a small one, like a Micra, yaris or Corsa. I see no reason why that one can't be replaced by an electric car.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 05-31-2010 at 20:53.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  30. #90
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dead Zone (or, BP and the Oil Well That Keeps on Giving)

    Electric cars at this time are:
    1. Too expensive compared to the petrol models.
    2. The few I've seen are ugly little tin cans that most people in the US don't want to drive.
    3. The electric grid to support, and the maintenance facilities to sustain them is non-existent.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

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