Daggers in the Night [Concluded]

[Renata]

He has a point; Kagemusha escaped lynch twice... as town, it does feel like a bit of a cop-out that we tried to lynch a slave twice and failed.

The town made two assumptions really that lost the game for us; the assumption that Kagemusha's claims to be the Ancient One were correct (rather than the WIFOM that it was) and a belief that Diamondeye was innocent as a replacement player.

So I was right about Kagemusha being a slave, anyway. JHT -- not really pleased, since your move came late enough in the game you knew full well the assumptions that were going around about replacement players and consciously took advanteage of that. It feels like a bit too much.

Romanic -- very strong job in defending yourself with no signs of nerves; I certainly won't leave the loopholes in your logic unchallenged a second time. You being mafia (as well as Kage in fact being a slave -- nice move) makes me feel considerably better about your victory.

The balancing, and the set-up in general: meh. Not interested in complaining about it. It was a good game. Thank you, Andres.

It would be nice to win one outright once in a while, though. LURKERS MUST DIE.

[johnhughthom]

What move?

[Andres]

JHT -- not really pleased, since your move came late enough in the game you knew full well the assumptions that were going around about replacement players and consciously took advanteage of that. It feels like a bit too much.

It wasn't johnhughthom's intention to be replaced. In fact, he was pretty disappointed about it. He went on a one week holiday, without internet acces. Apparently, he tried to get online during that week, but he couldn't and so I had no choice but to replace him, just like I replaced other players who were going to get WoG'ed otherwise.

Btw, I would never replace a mafioso who wants to be replaced himself, as part of his cunning plan to win the game. That would be a bit cheap, now would it? The mistake you made was assuming that a replacement player could not be scum. People being selected as townie can have perfectly valid real life reasons that make it impossible for them to continue play. Why would it be otherwise for mafiosi?

[Renata]

Oh, my mistake then. JHT's non-voting prior to the replacement gave it more the appearance of being a deliberate strategy.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Good game Andres

I'm glad Romanic turned up scum...

It turns out we were right about the vote switch being a one shot ability though, which makes the second lynch not so terrible. A shame kage wasn't vigged though.

[TinCow]

The mistake you made was assuming that a replacement player could not be scum. People being selected as townie can have perfectly valid real life reasons that make it impossible for them to continue play. Why would it be otherwise for mafiosi?

True, but I still assert it's a sufficiently rare occurrance to make it a major mark in someone's favor. If we stop assuming that replacements are townies, we'll increase the rate at which we lynch townies instead of mafioso. I think the key, as demonstrated by this situation, is to pay attention to the reason someone is replaced. JHT was active and then said he had to go on vacation and might not be posting again for a while... and then he was replaced. That's a lot different from someone who's replaced due to pure inactivity with no excuse.

So, I'm assuming that Kukri knew who all the scum were at the start and need to replace JHT/DE as the Godfather, but keep the team intact? That's the only reason I can think of for him to spare Kage.

[Renata]

Good game Andres

I'm glad Romanic turned up scum...

It turns out we were right about the vote switch being a one shot ability though, which makes the second lynch not so terrible. A shame kage wasn't vigged though.

I tried ... But you guys just wouldn't re-elect me, no ...

[Beskar]

So, I'm assuming that Kukri knew who all the scum were at the start and need to replace JHT/DE as the Godfather, but keep the team intact? That's the only reason I can think of for him to spare Kage.

Makes no sense as apparently Kurki needed to kill Diamondeyes, instead, he was assisting the mafia. Have to wait for him to turn up for answers.

[TinCow]

Makes no sense as apparently Kurki needed to kill Diamondeyes, instead, he was assisting the mafia. Have to wait for him to turn up for answers.

Well, it makes perfect sense if he just wanted to off the Godfather and keep the minions alive for his own use later.

The setup seems to have been surprisingly close to the classic Godfather games. The only differences were the two one-shot vote-switching abilities, the hostile second Godfather, and the Naib role. Given the nature of Org games to be so role-heavy, I'm mentally notching this one down mainly as a 'vanilla' game. It was very refreshing to be focused more on posting habits than on night actions, thanks for the nice change of pace Andres.

Is it just me, or does the town have a pretty poor record when it comes to Godfather games?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Town is 2-2 in godfather games.

The mafia gaining a 2nd kill was the only bit I don't like about the setup...they already had two VERY powerful abilities. The extra kill they used to make romanic look innocent, and the vote switch would they could have used to frame someone. It took out the traditional "down to one kill, so either we got mafia or the mafia is framing him" aspect...but everyone was still thinking in that mode.

[Renata]

I do love that everyone ignored Romanic about TheFlax. :)

[Andres]

Town is 2-2 in godfather games.

The mafia gaining a 2nd kill was the only bit I don't like about the setup...they already had two VERY powerful abilities. The extra kill they used to make romanic look innocent, and the vote switch would they could have used to frame someone. It took out the traditional "down to one kill, so either we got mafia or the mafia is framing him" aspect...but everyone was still thinking in that mode.

I've been playing with that idea for long, but I figured 4 scum with 2 kills for the entire game was pretty well balanced. If I would have had 30 players, instead of 1, then I would have skipped the second GF and the mafia would have had one kill once a henchman was dead. With 30 players, I would also have gotten rid of the vig and doctor ability for the Naib.

With 40 alive, only 3 mafia and 1 kill with a henchman dead felt a bit too hard on the mafia. So I went for an outsider/scumbag. But there was risk for cross kills! Hmmm, so 2 kills each night then. Oh, but then town has it hard; let's them give an immortal doctor and 2 vigs. Hmmm... But vigs are guaranteed kills; but I want the GF lynch- and vigable (so basically, town only needed to have it right twice in order to win); hm, hm, hm, toss in a lynch redirect (I like that, because I like chaos and confusion in mafia; and it's such a great tool for WIFOM). And that's how you end up with Daggers in the Night

There was also a personal reason to keep two kills in a 40 player game: I go on a holiday next Monday. Having kills drop down to 1 mid game would have caused the game to be in the exciting end phase right when I had to leave. It's about time I'm going to spend some more time with somebody who is even more special than you guys and who counts for two nowadays. "They" deserve to get more attention from me from now on

I'll post roles and thoughts once I get home.

[TinCow]

It's about time I'm going to spend some more time with somebody who is even more special than you guys and who counts for two nowadays. "They" deserve to get more attention from me from now on

Danger! With two votes to your one, they could lynch you without risk!

[KukriKhan]

Well, it makes perfect sense if he just wanted to off the Godfather and keep the minions alive for his own use later.

^^That^^ was it. I leave the full expose' to Hostie Andres. Let me just say that my role was heavily mafia-leaning, but I tried to make it as town-friendly as possible. That became impossible late in the game when I lost investigative powers (but gained re-animation for the purpose of killing). Then I had no choice.

[TheFlax]

I do love that everyone ignored Romanic about TheFlax. :)

I'm glad I questioned Romanic, even if it led nowhere.

Well played mafia!

[The Stranger]

good game.

[Methos]

Excellent game, Andres! I thoroughly enjoyed it. I just wish I'd been more active in the beginning.

I still suspected Diamondeye at the end, but due to the "logic" of why he was innocent, I felt I would look foolish and more scummy for pointing fingers at him.

Well done, Diamondeye, my hats off to you. You did an excellent job. It was your early accusation against me that didn't make sense, since you've said before that you have trouble reading me. I find it rather hilarious and upsetting that we seemed wrong about so much in this game. We missed Romanic and were totally off about so much. I look forward to hearing Andre's thoughts on the game as it progressed. I bet he had many nights in front of his monitor laughing his tail off!

Again, my thanks to the host. Excellent job!

[naut]

On a personal note:

Lol. This makes it easier to pick out the Mafia. You are looking for someone who hasn't played a lot of games here as I am always suspicious and 95% of the time end up the game lynched.

Lynch Romanic.

It's Romaric. Lynch him already.

I told you so.

[Askthepizzaguy]

It's a pleasure to be so soundly defeated. One bad assumption can ruin your whole day. I had this problem with why the people who were "obviously" innocent were being left alive. The kills confused the heck out of me. I should have listened to that nagging doubt and explored the reasons why. Double A and Split being left alive for so long... now I understand.... the Ancient One was able to hide among other people who had been inactive at one point... too inactive to be mafia, or so I assumed.

I take some small comfort in knowing that Kagemusha and Kukrikhan were both scumbags, but I can't say I did very well. Too many bad assumptions based off of atheotes' supposed guilt. I did have tons of fun though, as expected. Helping Diana with the lynch write-ups was certainly fun. And it was also fun to be so completely wrong about almost everything, when the evidence was misinterpreted to make us all believe one thing.

No one I spoke to ever really suspected Diamondeye. He was the lowest priority for basically everybody. Wasn't even on my suspect list. A simple accident of real life gave the absolutely perfect cover for a mafia... and I never explored why he and Double A and Split were being left alive. The only assumption I came up with was there was a very high chance that Split or Double A or choxorn or Diamondeye would be most likely protected by the Naib every night, and Double A and Split weren't as involved in the game. That was the king of all bad assumptions. Something should have flipped a switch in my brain where Johnhughthom was replaced IMMEDIATELY, but the others were gone for days at a time and no replacement. That was the smoking gun... and then the known mafia never really accusing Diamondeye.

Ah well. I raise my hands in defeat: a real, true defeat. It's been a while since we've been ruined so badly. Feels oddly refreshing.

I'll get you next time, Diamondeye. And your little Kage Al Musha too.




Thanks Andres. I always lose your games...... always.

[Kagemusha]

Cant wait to read the thoughts of Andres.

[Scienter]

Good game!

[seireikhaan]

Congrats to the victors. Well played. I'm interested in the full role descriptions. I'm still a bit hazy on some of the details.

And, I think this is the first time I can think of since Mafia VIII that a rl/connection/net problem became beneficial for the mafia. The remaining other mafia simply played better this time around(albeit with a bit more help, maaaaaaybe) to come away with victory.

Good game all. Thanks for hosting, Andres. Sorry I didn't contribute more after my death. I hope you'll eventually be able to take another crack at hosting.

[Diana Abnoba]

Congrats to the mafia!! I think the town was lost most of this game. After Romanic was lynch, wasn't there 2 kills, but after Atheotes it went down to 1, this is why we thought that Atheotes was the slave. What happened the night after Romanic was lynched? I even think that we had the roles mixed up, I think it was mentioned several times that the special role was Nickolas. Perfect placement of the vote switches, I never even thought about that as a reason Kage was lynch immune. Oh well can't win them all (but it would be nice to win some ), at least I got to play a different role than I've ever played before.


Thanks to our wonderful host Andres We will miss you, my friend. Special thoughts go out to you and your new family!

[TheFlax]

Congrats to the mafia!! I think the town was lost most of this game. After Romanic was lynch, wasn't there 2 kills, but after Atheotes it went down to 1, this is why we thought that Atheotes was the slave. What happened the night after Romanic was lynched? I even think that we had the roles mixed up, I think it was mentioned several times that the special role was Nickolas. Perfect placement of the vote switches, I never even thought about that as a reason Kage was lynch immune. Oh well can't win them all (but it would be nice to win some ), at least I got to play a different role than I've ever played before.


Thanks to our wonderful host Andres We will miss you, my friend. Special thoughts go out to you and your new family!

From what I understand, mafia had access to an extra one kill for one night.

[Diana Abnoba]

Well that was well placed too then!

[Diamondeye]

I was the one who suggested to Renata that the special role could be Nikolaos. Whilst writing in the "Nikolaos' Crypt" quicktopic. I giggled.

I have saved a few private conversations, but first: Thanks to Andres for a formidable game. I joined late but I got my part of the action
Thanks to Kagemusha, Romanic and johnhughthom; I really enjoyed our teamwork even though I can be bossy - and harsh on john when he went out of his way to protect me early on.
And thanks to the town; It was not until the final Methos lynch that I could relax... I really had to lay bonds on myself to not catch any suspicion or leave odd ESP- or PIS-clues. I was close a couple of times... And that time where Sasakighost came out of nothing and accused me... Gah... I decided to stomach it and ignore it. Luckily attention quickly shifted.

Now, for the funny quotes

AskThePizzaGuy conversation:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ATPG siger:
in case you don't know, I think Methos and Scienter are likely henchmen
they are just low-key enough to be excellent choices
Marcus siger:
Hmm... they're keeping a low profile, true.
I haven't gotten any significant impression of them other than that.
ATPG siger:
thats the idea
Marcus siger:
That speaks in their favour if you're right.
ATPG siger:
mafia dont want any impressions
Marcus siger:
That's plausible. I'll keep an eye on them.

Spot on the idea - wrong targets. But it gets better...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Marcus siger:
Wait, what?
Is the ancient lynch immune?
I must have missed that...
ATPG siger:
Yes. While the scum henchmen survive.
Now, john was scum in another game
and he didn't drop from that one
he dropped from this one.
What does that tell you?
That means he's innocent
and therefore you are.
So....
I have identified many innocents.
Marcus siger:
That's a good piece of work.
Hmm... the rules states nothing about the ancient being lynch immune more clear than...
"The Ancient" is the equivalent of the "Godfather" (see: The Godfather I, II and III; a nod to Silver Rusher and GeneralHankerchief ).
Were you in any of these games?
ATPG siger:
hold on.
you know what, you're right
he cannot kill until both his slaves are dead
but he may not be lynch immune

Massive WIFOM while dropping a hint to the town... Playing the cards close when it comes to Perfect Information, but it went through...

And now - I must confess I didn't like lying to her - Renata:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Renata siger:
heh
have you talked to pizza about the game at all?
Marcus siger:
He tried sending me PM earlier but my inbox was full.
I cleaned it out now and dropped him a notice, but he's probably asleep or something.
Renata siger:
yeah most likely
i'm tempted to tell you what he probably had to say
thinking
Marcus siger:
Your decision
Renata siger:
though it may be too late to matter
Marcus siger:
?
Renata siger:
anyway, it might not hurt you to act a little bit scummy, on purpose
Marcus siger:
Humm... the mafia killing off replacements, you mean?
Renata siger:
yes
Marcus siger:
I see. So I have to push beyond my "natural scummines"?

Lulzgiggles!

This one I felt really bad about - it wasn't planned, but it was useful!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Marcus siger:
Sure. Checkeeng.
You've got it right.
Also; You can only reveal your Naib orders in public.
Renata siger:
i know, in civplayah's NOTW game earthling was the protector and I could/would have gotten two right if following my own instincts, but that's an exception. and there's no guarantee i would have followed my instincts if it came down to it -- paranoia/just protet the improtant people is sucha strong instinct
right
oh
oh no
i told diana
that's not allowed
shee-it
Marcus siger:
You should say that to Andres.
Immidiately.
Renata siger:
i will
Marcus siger:
Ugh. Perhaps he will have to make them public to even the field, then.
Sorry I noticed

Smackety smack more info for me! Nom nom nom!

And...

Marcus siger:
... I think you're right.
It would make sense that Nikolaus would be the other role... A vampire who has been working with the daggers a long time ago to catch our villain.
But whether we can trust him or not, I don't know. My guess is "not".
Renata siger:
you are probably right on that

Damn right you can't trust Nikolaos

Also - this last writeup was mostly done by me (hence the CFC joke which is hilarious if you know what it's about). And I included jaywalking in Kage's crimes...

I enjoyed the game a lot! Once more; thanks
I want a medal to flash for it though. To say I'm not proud would be a lie

[johnhughthom]

ATPG siger:
Yes. While the scum henchmen survive.
Now, john was scum in another game
and he didn't drop from that one
he dropped from this one.
What does that tell you?

[Renata]

@ Diamondeye about Nikolaos as the special role -- yeah, and that was one conversation that felt slightly wrong to me at the time. But it made too much sense once I thought about it. I still don't understand how Nikolaos and the Ancient Vampire were one and the same; must have missed something.

Also, everybody seems to feel bad about lying to me, but it doesn't seem to stop anyone from doing it. Woe.

Heck with it, you did good.

[Secura]

That's true, actually; how come you didn't drop from the Star Wars game at CFC, but you did for this game... Darth Maul? :P

[johnhughthom]

I told Andres and Choxorn/Zack the exact same thing. I was going on holiday for a week and probably wouldn't have internet access so feel free to replace me if they had somebody but I would continue playing when I got back if not. Andres found somebody, Zack/Choxorn didn't. I wouldn't pick and choose which games I stay in due to my role.

I'm more concerned a conversation between two people who aren't even in the Star Wars game has outed me.