Gunpowder weapons in STW2

[al Roumi]

Assuming STW2 builds on ETW and NTW's engine, we can expect that STW2 will support gunpowder weapons as well as the more honourable missile weapon of the Samurai -the bow.

STW had both Ashigaru gunners and "Musqueteers", armed with Arquebuses and "improved" Arquebuses respectively (as far as I remember).

So, what sort of gunpowder weapons do you think will be in STW2? Which do you think should be?

How strong is the historical case for gunpowder weapons in STW2? What types, what training/organisation/drill?

[Sp00n]

I think they should stick with 2, they were overpowered imo in the first game saved by the fact that their melee skills were awful and the weather effected them. Hopefully they won't be able to shoot through hills like they did in the first game.

They could be devastating in the right hands.

2 choices was more than enough. If they flood the game with gunpowder it will be a shame.

[al Roumi]

What about the method of aquiring them? Trading with the Portugese & adopting Christianity, or waiting for the (less missionary minded) Dutch to turn up. I liked the effect that choice had on the game.

[Sp00n]

What about the method of aquiring them? Trading with the Portugese & adopting Christianity, or waiting for the (less missionary minded) Dutch to turn up. I liked the effect that choice had on the game.

They should keep both ways of acquiring them ,it did make a major difference in the SP when you had them.

[Kagemusha]

CA has some interesting choices as the teppo caliber sizes ranged from about 8.4 mm to huge 48mm "wall guns" used mainly in sieges.

[al Roumi]

CA has some interesting choices as the teppo caliber sizes ranged from about 8.4 mm to huge 48mm "wall guns" used mainly in sieges.

That last 48mm sounds like a form of artillery... Were they used offensively or defensively in sieges?

Are there any records of Japanese use of fire lances?

[Kagemusha]

That last 48mm sounds like a form of artillery... Were they used offensively or defensively in sieges?

Are there any records of Japanese use of fire lances?

Yes 48mm is equivalent to the calibers of early AT guns of WWII.Wall guns were used mainly in sieges.In some sources they are referred as cannons, but they look just like huge proportioned muskets. The guns and shooters were supported by bails of rice as these things had quite the recoil in them. Fire lances were not used in Japan, they were only main land phenomenom.

Here you can see some larger Japanese teppo in various sizes:



The largest is attached to a sledge of sorts and im really not sure should that thing be called a musket anymore.

[InsaneApache]

Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC large calibre cannons were only used once in the Sengoku Jidai period and they belonged to a foreign naval ship that was asked to bombard a costal fortress. If true, then surely only muskets and suchlike would be available.

Then again, it is only a game.

[Kagemusha]

Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC large calibre cannons were only used once in the Sengoku Jidai period and they belonged to a foreign naval ship that was asked to bombard a costal fortress. If true, then surely only muskets and suchlike would be available.

Then again, it is only a game.

Yep.Japanese didnt copy the Portuguese naval gun staight away, like they did for the teppo. It is possibly that they had broblems in casting cannons to begin with, but few daimyos bought cannons like Otomo Sorin, the Christian daimyo of Kyushu. Also Tokugawa Ieyasu used cannons to bombard the last Toyotomi fortress of Osaka castle in campaigns that marked the end of the period. I dont know if these were domestic products or bought from foreigners.But all the teppo´s shown in the previous post of mine were of Japanese design.

[Double A]

CA builds a new engine every two games though. Sure, they use the old one as a base, but they basically strip it down to its bare bones and give it a major overhaul. S2 is definitely going to be a melee-focused game, with archers for quite a long time before anything goes "boom."

[seienchin]

Honestly, I thought musketeers in shogun were crappy units. Off course they were good for their price, but not beeing able to fire in rain and beeing easily destroyed by any cavallery unit made them in my eyes not effective. Esspecially because they only appeared in the game, when I already could affort better units with experience from their buildings, which musketeers hadnt.

By the way, the tanegashima (Thats how the common japanese called the weappons) was copied really fast, so there was no need to convert to christianity. I hope CA will get more realistic christian bony like trading.

[Ja'chyra]

Assuming STW2 builds on ETW and NTW's engine, we can expect that STW2 will support gunpowder weapons as well as the more honourable missile weapon of the Samurai -the bow.

STW had both Ashigaru gunners and "Musqueteers", armed with Arquebuses and "improved" Arquebuses respectively (as far as I remember).

So, what sort of gunpowder weapons do you think will be in STW2? Which do you think should be?

How strong is the historical case for gunpowder weapons in STW2? What types, what training/organisation/drill?

What makes you think that?

[Kagemusha]

What makes you think that?

If you are referring to the boldened part.The preferred weapon of choosing for Samurai was Yumi bow before 15th century.

[Ja'chyra]

Maybe, but that doesn't make it a more honourable weapon, just traditional.

[Kagemusha]

Maybe, but that doesn't make it a more honourable weapon, just traditional.

Well few honoured the traditions very much. Ofcourse not over practicality of things, but still a skilled paractitioner of Yabusame was by far more looked up upon compared to a rank and file Ashigaru with his teppo matchlock.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

The Teppo should be in it, for sure. And I would like to see some form of cannon.

[al Roumi]

What makes you think that?

Well few honoured the traditions very much. Ofcourse not over practicality of things, but still a skilled paractitioner of Yabusame was by far more looked up upon compared to a rank and file Ashigaru with his teppo matchlock.

AFAIK firearms were speedily adopted by most Clans, but when the Sengoku Jidai ended with the new Shogunate, they were outlawed as Japan essentially turned in on itself, reverted to traditions and rejected (or severely limited & controlled) external/foreign influences -such as gunpowder weapons.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

AFAIK firearms were speedily adopted by most Clans, but when the Sengoku Jidai ended with the new Shogunate, they were outlawed as Japan essentially turned in on itself, reverted to traditions and rejected (or severely limited & controlled) external/foreign influences -such as gunpowder weapons.

This is true. But it wouldn't last forever. Manufacturing of the native Teppo was important, and knowlege of it must be maintained. So though it was cut down and made much more limited.... they would go into production again. In the Boshin war samurai fought with traditional weapons and modern ones. (After our Civil war.) So the Samurai of both West and East, (North and South) met again, this time with the old teppo, rifles, and gattling guns. XD The Meiji saw victory over the Tokugawa shogunate, but would yet turn opon the Samurai that helped it claim rule over the land. Outlawing the samurai class, and fighting former allies like Saigo Tagomori in Satstuma.

Btw... what does it feel like to feel qwerty? (You gotta know what it is to know if you know you know.) XD

[al Roumi]

Btw... what does it feel like to feel qwerty?

It really hurts!

[Tsar Alexsandr]

It really hurts!

Lol. I had no idea. XD

[quadalpha]

Lol. I had no idea. XD

Eh?

[Nelson]

A game without teppo and would be as accurate as a game without samurai. Guns were that important during the Sengoku Jidai. They were powerful and effective. That’s why daimyo adopted them so quickly.

Talk about honor went by the boards straight away. It was, as it has always been in war, all about winning.

[edyzmedieval]

Guns or no guns, I still prefer the Yabusame. A skilled Samurai Longbowman is much much better than any Teppo Ashigaru.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Guns or no guns, I still prefer the Yabusame. A skilled Samurai Longbowman is much much better than any Teppo Ashigaru.

Massed teppo was a dangerous weapon though. And pierces armor better.

That being said, the Yumi was a fine bow. With excellent range and accuracy. They were still around cause they were far more accurate than a ashigaru with a teppo. They'll also be able to arch their fire.

I like both, and plan on using both. :D

[al Roumi]

I think we've more or less agreed that firearms should be involved (like our opinion matters, but anyway), what sort of historical "Teppo" (or other) troops do the orgahs know of?

Ashigaru gunners we had in STW and I've seen plenty of evidence to support their existence, what about Samurai using Teppos? I think I saw mention of some Daimyo insisting on every man in 5 being equipped with a Teppo, but I'm not sure if "man" refers to the whole army (e.g. Smaurai and Ashigaru) or focuses on a standing force of Samurai?

Any one have any reference to particualr fire drills used during sengoku jidai? Any maurician rank firing? STW only allowed the front rank of a formation of gunners to fire, is that historicaly right? What about Pike & Arquebus mixed infantry deployment as used in contemporary europe?

[caravel]

I agree with keeping it simple and close to the first game. Allowing factions to accept the Christians and then acquire teppo early from the Portuguese (Nanban trade) was an important part of that game - and having the option to wait for the Dutch trade and avoid turning Christian was also an important dynamic. In terms of the units, the basic Teppo Ashigaru is all that's needed with an upgrade perhaps coming later in the campaign via the gun factory? Anything more complex, such as three or more different teppo units, will be ridiculous.

The battle of Nagashino is a famous example of the effectiveness of the Teppo against the Takeda cavalry.

[al Roumi]

Thanks Asai, the wikipedia page for the Battle of Nagashino includes the following lines on the use of Arquebuses/Teppo:

"Between the continuous fire of the arquebusiers’ volleys and the rigid control of the horo-shu, the Oda stood their ground, and were able to repel every charge. Ashigaru spearmen stabbed through or over the stockades at any horses that made it past the initial volleys, and samurai, with swords and shorter spears, engaged in single combat with any Takeda warriors who made it past the wooden barricades."

I found two more relevant citations on Japanese firing drill:

"Oda Nobunaga revolutionized musket tactics in Japan by splitting loaders and shooters and assigning three guns to a shooter at the Battle of Nagashino in 1575. (Popular records stating he used a Maurice-style three-line formation are incorrect according to onsite evidence.[citation needed])" source: wikipedia

"speed of loading had to be practiced, married to the discipline needed to successfully carry out bursts of volley fire that is one rank firing, followed by another whilst giving time for the first to reload and fire again, and so on. This would keep up an almost continuous rate of fire although usually with more than just two ranks." Source

So it seems there is some discussion as to exactly what the firing drill was, but the effect of continuous fire seems to be more commonly accepted. My grand conclusion is therefore that I don't think any of the firing drills in ETW would be historicaly applicable to Ashigaru gunners in STW2.

What would perhaps be more historicaly acceptable is some animation system along the lines of a countermarch. Personaly, I hope CA find a way to emulate "continuous" fire (in volleys) by Asigaru gunners. I'd be disapointed if they simply had the first rank firing and reloading, with the 2nd, 3rd and other ranks immobile, only there to plug in the gaps of the front firing line.

[Tera]

The new engine definitely gives CA the chance to improve guns gameplay in Shogun. Think sieges and naval battles. Also, new unit types like Teppo Samurai are a given. They have the opportunity to enlarge the scope without defiling history - win/win.

However, balance is what they must absolutely get right. In STW 1.0/1.1 musketeers (unlike the useless Arques) were too powerful in battle mode, especially in multiplayer. Almost nobody used infantry archers and cavalry archers were only useful in the hands of those few who mastered them. For those of you who remember the battles back then, unless the attack was a well-planned rush (which was rare and hard to pull off), whoever won the missile battle would almost inevitably win the game. Most of the "skill" involved in a multiplayer battle was the ability to time & position yourself well enough to win the missile battle. At 5,000 - 8,000 koku level, which was the range most multiplayer games were played at - guns were both raw killing machines and morale heavy-hitters. In Mongol Invasion, guns were finally toned down and archers were improved - which led to a more diverse and exciting gameplay. Archers became absolutely lethal against low-armored units, had a high rate of fire, had better range and could be used in melee mode when their ammo was depleted (especially mounted ones).

I am confident the rock-paper-scissors system used in melee units will be good, although we will surely find loopholes to be fixed. For example, I remember people using an full army of high-honour Yari Ashigaru which, until banned/fixed, could defeat any samurai army whatsoever. Let's hope CA can learn from the lessons of the past and also deliver a good balance among missile units.

Tera

[Reenk Roink]

I love how Kage and others bring every little game issue thread nice historical tidbits and pictures. I'm very ignorant of the period and I don't want to be so this is awesome.

[aimlesswanderer]

I must say that I prefer melee units, I don't like it when there are mostly missile units (hello ETW). I didn't use firearms at all in STW.