So, we need more gay people to have kids...

[Rhyfelwyr]

... but they should not be allowed to show their love to the world? You, for some reason, think you have a say in who people love and not? What would give you this right, I might ask?

Eh? I'm a libertarian, they can do whatever they like.

Source? Gay relationships has been very highly esteemed in some time periods. And your comment about bringing children into "it" is just tasteless, borderline hateful. You think gay children will have gay kids, or what? That they will somehow make them gay?

I was joking with the nuclear family bit, which I think was obvious, I know it only really developed from the 17th century, for economic reasons more than anything else. And I'm not sure what you think I am saying with bringing children into "it", I simply am simply questioning how ideal it is for a child to be brought up by two parents of the same sex. Single mums for example tend to say how they wish their children could have a male rolemodel.

That does indeed seem to be your only argument, and a tasteless one at that.

Oh don't give me that "tasteless" moral outrage crap, I thought given the fact you were willing to step out of the box a bit on issues with race etc might at least have meant you would spare me that.

So how about adoption? Better a child starve to death than being adopted by "Teh Gays"? And by the way, the research I posted clearly shows that there is a substitute to the nuclear family that seems to be working, so what was your point again?

Seems like you're trying to put words in my mouth, as I said many homosexual couples do a better job than their straight counterparts. I just think that the old nuclear family is the best when both parents are functioning properly. Would you get so mad if I said being raised by your grandparents isn't so ideal? Or a nanny if your parents are always at work or whatever?

It is hard for me to reply to this. Forum guidelines clearly dictate that I should attack your statement, not you as a person. But when you as a statement bring in craziness in relation to yourself those guidelines seem to be very grey of colour indeed. I think I will just leave it.

Well it's not really relevant to the thread but that's just what I think, I'm a very paranoid person when it comes to being made to conform etc. You really telling me some of these happy-clappy do-everything-together families aren't creepy as hell. It's just because they often tend to be evangelical, and I was arguing for the nuclear family, I thought you might think I was one of those nutters. I'm just a different kind of nutter.

I dont quite get you here?

This means that you are aware that homophobia is more common among religious people and less educated persons, or did I misread you?

Indeed it is. People seem to be naturally homophobic before it is educated out of them. Religious is not a factor, education (class even?) seems to be the key. All working-class people I know (the kind of people where I live) are homophobic, whereas people at private school I went to for a while, and university, are definitely not.

[Kadagar_AV]

said stuff

I think what got me started was the mentioning of them being "allowed" to do it in their private sphere. Does not sound very libertarian to me.

With that said, I do see your point. I do not accept some of your points (or even like them), however, the points were we disagree seem to be more about world view than anything else, thus a further debate between us seems kind of pointless.

Don't get me wrong, I know you are quite reasonable really. I also respect a lot of what you say. Just that our world views are so different that we wont solve this topic without going hideously off topic first ;)

So let us postpone this debate until later, when we sorted some other stuff (like my depraved life leading straight to hell and your anal-retentive religious views) *note, said with a BIG smiley*

PS: I much liked your second post. I can see quite a difference between that and some early posts you did. Is HoreTore holding a gun to your head? ;)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't get me wrong, I know you are quite reasonable really. I also respect a lot of what you say. Just that our world views are so different that we wont solve this topic without going hideously off topic first ;)

So let us postpone this debate until later, when we sorted some other stuff (like my depraved life leading straight to hell and your anal-retentive religious views) *note, said with a BIG smiley*

I respect your views to, in particular it's refreshing to see someone that can think for themselves without the knee-jerk liberal-left/right-wing reactions.

Plus it's funny how we agree on little, less ideological things, like the thread on the attractiveness of different races.

But with different cultures I suppose... we end up with these big debates...

PS: I much liked your second post. I can see quite a difference between that and some early posts you did. Is HoreTore holding a gun to your head? ;)

I think I'm becoming all boring and moderate in my old age...

The main reason really is, as I said in another thread recently, I guess with being in the more 'tolerant' environment and having actually seen gay people, I realise they maybe aren't really all rapists/paedophiles/prostitutes/whatever like I used to think they were. At first, I really didn't believe the guys here when they said they weren't.

Don't hate on me too much for it though, even in my old posts I'm a moderate compared to people in RL. My old best friend went to some pretty crazy Baptist church and said he hopes all gay people will burn in hell, another guy (not really religious) says things like he wants to line them up and shoot them.

Looking back that's pretty shocking stuff and way out of touch with what you see for the enlightened minds on this forum, but really this is what things are like outside the world of the educated elite.

[PanzerJaeger]

Don't hate on me too much for it though, even in my old posts I'm a moderate compared to people in RL. My old best friend went to some pretty crazy Baptist church and said he hopes all gay people will burn in hell, another guy (not really religious) says things like he wants to line them up and shoot them.

Looking back that's pretty shocking stuff and way out of touch with what you see for the enlightened minds on this forum, but really this is what things are like outside the world of the educated elite.

I've never understood hatred of gays, a lot of it coming from people I otherwise agree with politically. It has no basis in rational thought, much like antisemitism. I blame deep seeded religious influences.

Actually, I guess you could blame the Jews for writing the Torah that has been the basis of homophobia for millenia.