Shogun 2 Total War silly questions

[Lvcretivs]

[...] Well-made mods do increase the replayability; but sufficiently for the many buyers to be still playing the game 18 months later when the next game comes out? [...]

A valid point, but this seems actually be the case with R:TW - four years after it's release - which evidently has a fairly thriving fan/modding community with major projects both announced and released. On the other hand - are eg. the 'hardcore' EB I players really statistically representative?

Mods can be a threat to DLC, I agree, but just how much revenue are we talking about here? [...]

That's quite a critical point - I completely agree with you that such an 'analysis', if based on rather shaky, probably unrealistic assumptions about expected profits shouldn't be taken very seriously - but this article, focusing on console games,as well as the second half of this article could possibly clear up the issue - and the underlying economical/PR concepts - a bit (insofar as these aspects are transferable to PC strategy games...). I confess, I'm not very good at economics, so don't build on my reasoning...;)

[...] Personally, I question if DLC is worth the developers' time in the first place: they should be focusing on the next game, or the next expansion, rather than serving up skin-packs and minor campaigns. In other words: DLC is always going to be overpriced to make it worth it for the developers. This being the case, even without mods available DLC will never be a major source of income.

Again a perfectly valid and convincing point, that raises an rather interesting (cf. the OP ;), speculative question: What if DLC should rather be seen as instrument of an medial 'image policy', creating the illusion of 'customers/fanbase support' in an desperate attempt to reestablish the endangered 'qualitative superiority' of SEGA/Activision? A further, if not primary purpose of distributing DLC could as well be effective camouflage of 'creative/technical stagnation' on the developer's part - a situation owned to the TW franchise's peculiar position on the genre crossroads between RTS and TBS - eg. compensating the lack of advanced strategic/tactical AI with cosmetic 'eyecandy' and new 'features' geared towards an not so discerning audience...?

EDIT: A rather interesting and critical blog entry about 'Sun Tzu as an AI Design Guide?'

[MisterFred]

I don't buy Total War games any more unless there's a mod I want to play. I didn't get Medieval 2 until I heard EB II was coming out, and I'm pretty sure I'll never buy Empire Total War. Unfortunately, there's no way for the companies to know this. It's one of those invisible statistics. Far simpler to just assume that people playing older mods when your new game comes out are not buying the new game - that's probably what I look like to them.

But the truth of the matter is I've never trusted CA's vanilla campaigns ever since war dogs were, apparently, the most powerful unit on the ancient era battlefield. Which is a shame, since I genuinely enjoyed the Shogun Total War single player (no sieges, yay!).

From everything I've read, I made the right decision. I mean, who wants to play an Empire-era game where the AI can't manage a naval invasion or send the Europeans after India? And really, Sun Tzu as an AI design guide? That's a steaming pile of bullcrap - elephant sized. Programming an AI is genuinely hard, but knowing the basics of what you want it to do isn't. Pure propaganda, especially in a game where espionage is so basic.

[moonburn]

or diplomacy i bought 3 cd´s of rtw 2 for eb1 and only reason i bought mtw2 was for eb2 cause their demo didn´t really appealed to me that much

another thing developers should remember is that most players pc isn´t state of the art and building hard to handle games for computers between 5 to 2 years old is putting aside a major part of their player basis i had to buy a newlaptop for mtw2 and i think i will have to buy another when eb2 comes out cause this is already giving me problems (and this makes me think of markets like china who average income is 146 euros per month i believe or indonesia or india or other places outside europe america and japan wich are basically 80% of the worlds population and are markets being ignored )

the best games are not the one´s with the best graphics it´s the one´s like eb1 that were made so that the makers could enjoy themselfs but until game developers understand that the best profit is the long term profit and not this short term blast that creates trash we´re stuck in this cycle of quick profit frustate the gamers and when something new comes along everyone changes to the new platform and the cycle begins again (one would have hoped that sega had learned it´s lesson due to their past history in the console world agaisnt nintendo and sony )

[Ludens]

A valid point, but this seems actually be the case with R:TW - four years after it's release - which evidently has a fairly thriving fan/modding community with major projects both announced and released. On the other hand - are eg. the 'hardcore' EB I players really statistically representative?

I doubt it. EB has been downloaded 10.000 times, but most of those probably played the mod for a month or two and then moved on. How many actually played the mod for longer than a year? I also wonder if the popularity of R:TW mods has something to do with dissatisfaction about the way the series is going. Every new instalment has ambitious new features, yet the developers can't get the basics right: balancing and A.I.

That's quite a critical point - I completely agree with you that such an 'analysis', if based on rather shaky, probably unrealistic assumptions about expected profits shouldn't be taken very seriously - but this article, focusing on console games,as well as the second half of this article could possibly clear up the issue - and the underlying economical/PR concepts - a bit (insofar as these aspects are transferable to PC strategy games...).

Interesting. I admit I am out of depth here too.

What if DLC should rather be seen as instrument of an medial 'image policy', creating the illusion of 'customers/fanbase support' in an desperate attempt to reestablish the endangered 'qualitative superiority' of SEGA/Activision?

Possible, although it would be akin to solving a problem by denying it. Then again, corporations aren't always rational about threads towards their position, as Activision's boss has proved.

EDIT: A rather interesting and critical blog entry about 'Sun Tzu as an AI Design Guide?'

I quite agree. Sun Tzu's work is not innovative: it is timeless because he wrote down the basic principles of strategy. For that matter: the A.I. of the original Shogun was based on Sun Tzu. Did CA forget about him in the games they made in between? Or are they just attempting to restore the fanbase's faith in their ability to produce a strong A.I. opponent?

[darius_d]

Well, I think that modding-friendly games will win eventually. There are two economic reasons behind that.

First - development costs and brand loyalty. Simply, it is too costly for developers to do all the job by themselves, something will be neglected. Workload is expensive and they never have a chance to beat community about that. Empire and Napoleon - two buggy unmoddable titles couldn't prove it better. Instead, they should create a solid platform on which community could add up as they wish.

Second - the business model. The coming future is dramatically changing, apparently everything is going into the cloud, especially for pc (note shogun 2 will be released on pc only).
Sooner or later buying CD will be replaced, perhaps by subscriptions. So this should be a good news for modding-friendly games. Subscription model seems to suit best to attract huge crowds willing to play their favorite era for a long period of time, as RTW proved.

So, if we talk about Shogun 2 I hope they are aware of some great mods created by the community.
But first of all, I hope they noticed competition - like Takeda 3 by Magitech. Technically, it's annoyingly outdated, flawed and unpolished but conceptually much superior game than CA titles.

[geala]

Just a personal note on game selling economy: the only reason I bought M2:TW Kingdoms was that I heard it will be needed for EB II. At least a small financial aid to the developers by a mod.
And I also later bought E:TW because I like the timeframe and I expected mods. I'm not sure I will buy S2:TW cause the setting is not very interesting for me and modding may be not possible. Let's wait and see.

[Omegoa]

Just a personal note on game selling economy: the only reason I bought M2:TW Kingdoms was that I heard it will be needed for EB II. At least a small financial aid to the developers by a mod.
And I also later bought E:TW because I like the timeframe and I expected mods. I'm not sure I will buy S2:TW cause the setting is not very interesting for me and modding may be not possible. Let's wait and see.

At the same time, though, I'm not going to bother with S2:TW or even R2. Why? 'Cause I'll be too busy playing EB2!

[Satyros]

I still haven't bought ETW .

I've finished - vanilla- MTW2 with every nation on vh/vh ( and I must admit it was a better experience than the -vanilla- RTW one ) .

I still prefer EB .

I am currently obsessed with Paradox games , especially EUIII .

After that I don't know if I'll be able to go back to "new-generation-TW-non-A.I."

Shame they alienate the modding community , such a shame .

Even more so if they finally get to release a decent A.I. , at last .

Satyros

P.S. : Not knowing where this would be appropriately posted , I'll say it here :

Keep up the good work guys ( and gals - ? - ) ! Thank you for your time and effort . Υγεία .

[Skullheadhq]

I've finished - vanilla- MTW2 with every nation on vh/vh ( and I must admit it was a better experience than the -vanilla- RTW one )

It was a little bit easy, I reconstructed WWI with the HRE and blitzed Russia within notime but had lots of fun slaughtering Frenchies at 'Verdun'. But I liked RTW vanilla way better, just landing with the Pharaohs army in Gaul at the beginning was wonderful.[

I am currently obsessed with Paradox games , especially EUIII .

Huh, me too, I preordered Victoria 2 today.