"Tax the rich!" - The dumbest slogan ever.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Lolz! The people who are dumb enough to have credit card bills should be forced to pay at least 90% of their income in taxes.

Well, I can't say I disagree that there are many people who are stupid when it comes to handling credit cards...but I wouldn't punish them further, the bills do that for them. I hope I get to put off getting a credit card as long as possible.

[HoreTore]

Well, I can't say I disagree that there are many people who are stupid when it comes to handling credit cards...but I wouldn't punish them further, the bills do that for them. I hope I get to put off getting a credit card as long as possible.

There isn't a single person on this planet who needs a credit card.

Just create a savings account and place around 1.5 to 2 times your monthly salary in it, and you'll have enough cash for any situation.

[rory_20_uk]

Credit cards do have useful functions. They are accepted where other cards aren't e.g. abroad, some exam boards refused debit dards - no idea why. Goods bought on them often have automatic insurance - if the company you booked the flight with goes down you can claim back the money - but not on a debit card. Some give back points / money.

So I have one mainly for emergencies. I can't envisage what those emergencies are, as if I could odds are I could stop them form happening. I called up the company and pay 100% off every month by direct debit from my bank account. So, unless I somehow charge thousands of pounds to the credit card without remembering I will never pay any fees on it.

Speaking of ignorance on credit, a survey in the UK showed that a significant number of people thought that the bigger the APR the better! That might explain a company that was advertising on TV with an apr of slightly over 2,900%...

[Hosakawa Tito]

Try renting a car without a credit card.

[Vladimir]

Blimey I agree with HoreTore. I'm going to have a lie down in a darkened room with a wet flannel on me head!

No wait! I realise now that he's just growing up.

Wow. Busy thread.

He is, but his ideology will bind him to his current thinking. This thread will likely confirm biases and prevent any real maturation.

[TinCow]

Credit cards can also be used responsibly. I have never carried a balance on my credit cards, but I use them for almost all of my purchases. I just don't buy anything I cannot afford at that exact moment and I pay off my balance in full every month. Doing that, a credit card actually saves me money because I get cash back on all my credit card puchases, so all my purchases are cheaper than they would be if I paid with cash, check, or debit card.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Not just a dumb slogan, but a completely idiotic policy as well.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There have been some documentaries shown about the last US presidential election lately(and when I say lately, I mean "this spring"). A common theme among the Obama-supporters is that he wants to cut taxes for the middle class and raise taxes for "the rich".

To me, a European socialist commie-hippie, that's about as dumb as it gets.

They make it sound like the rich are some kind of money fountain that never empties, and we can just tap into it and live happily ever after. Unfortunately, reality is different. In any society with something that amounts to a welfare state, the most important aspect is the tax morale. People will have to see their taxes as just and appropriate, if not then they won't be paid. That goes for every layer of society; poor, rich and everyone in-between. The rich simply will not accept paying too high taxes, and if you try to make them, they have the money to leave the country easily - which they will. But that's really quite irrelevant, because the real issue is that taxing rich people harder than everyone else simply isn't just. A higher tax will be seen as a punishment, and we shouldn't punish someone for making a lot of money.

Everyone should pay the same level of tax. If the tax level is 28%, then you should pay 28% whether you make 500.000 or 500.000.000 per year. It will probably be acceptable for everyone to lower the tax a little for those with low incomes, but those making around the average income in a country should pay the full tax - and those making more than that should pay the same.

If you want the government to fund new stuff, fine; but be aware that you are the one who's going to pay for it through taxes. You can't expect "the rich" to buy it for you.

Did I wake up in some strange alternate universe?

As for Ali Baba's treasure, if the top few went without receiving a wage for a year and gave it all to the government, then the USA would well be on its on way of clearing its national debt. As after all, they could afford not to receive anything for a year and it would save the American economy almost over-night, along with as if all the tax evaders were clean with their tax bills, etc.

There's so much wrong with this, but I'll just focus on one thing. If you took billions (trillions?) of dollars out of the economy, how would that 'save the economy'? It'd mean unemployment for everyone making goods or providing services that would have otherwise been bought by the rich.

CR

[naut]

Flat rate tax?

[InsaneApache]

You may laugh but the consensus in the 70s was that a very high tax rate would garner the amount of money to fund government spending plans. When in fact the opposite is true. A flat rate tax would reward those with the gumption to start a business and crucially employ people. That's why I favour it.

[HoreTore]

You may laugh but the consensus in the 70s was that a very high tax rate would garner the amount of money to fund government spending plans. When in fact the opposite is true. A flat rate tax would reward those with the gumption to start a business and crucially employ people. That's why I favour it.

I never said I favoured low taxes....

[rory_20_uk]

To be fair IA never stated that you did.

I personally would like the level of tac to be determined as to what benefits the economy most. I personally think that this would be in the low 20's, but I have only an amateur's interest in the subject.

[naut]

A flat rate tax would reward those with the gumption to start a business and crucially employ people. That's why I favour it.

???

There's enough reward for someone to start a business anyway. A little thing called profits. Not many people have the know-how, capital and drive to create a successful business.

[HoreTore]

To be fair IA never stated that you did.

I personally would like the level of tac to be determined as to what benefits the economy most. I personally think that this would be in the low 20's, but I have only an amateur's interest in the subject.

Gotta spend money to make money.

That applies to taxes and governments too...

[rory_20_uk]

Although this can be true, governments can also waste money and constrain growth whilst spending money.

[HoreTore]

Although this can be true, governments can also waste money and constrain growth whilst spending money.

....And a drunken oil trader can make the oil price skyrocket because he was trading oil while faced....

[Beskar]

That reminds me, if this was an alternative universe under Socialism. I could easily advocate 0% income tax. But under the current capitalist system, progressive taxation is the way to go.

[HoreTore]

That reminds me, if this was an alternative universe under Socialism. I could easily advocate 0% income tax. But under the current capitalist system, progressive taxation is the way to go.

What's the point? You're never going to be able to tax the rich hard enough to actually get some real money, nor will it be sufficient to lower the gap between rich and poor.

There are more clever ways to reach that goal than the tax system.

[ajaxfetish]

Credit cards can also be used responsibly. I have never carried a balance on my credit cards, but I use them for almost all of my purchases. I just don't buy anything I cannot afford at that exact moment and I pay off my balance in full every month. Doing that, a credit card actually saves me money because I get cash back on all my credit card puchases, so all my purchases are cheaper than they would be if I paid with cash, check, or debit card.

Here, here!

I don't like the idea that credit card use is necessarily unhealthy. I've used a credit card for the majority of my financial interactions for the last decade. I have yet to pay a penny in interest. You can't beat the convenience, security, and breadth of acceptance of a credit card.

Ajax

[HoreTore]

Here, here!

I don't like the idea that credit card use is necessarily unhealthy. I've used a credit card for the majority of my financial interactions for the last decade. I have yet to pay a penny in interest. You can't beat the convenience, security, and breadth of acceptance of a credit card.

Ajax

I have yet to visit a place that does not accept my Visa card.

[Beskar]

There are more clever ways to reach that goal than the tax system.

Hence the alternative universe under Socialism.

[TinCow]

I have yet to visit a place that does not accept my Visa card.

You would not have a Visa debit card if the Visa credit card did not exist.

[HoreTore]

You would not have a Visa debit card if the Visa credit card did not exist.

....And if credit cards were never invented, a debit card would've worked everywhere.

[TinCow]

....And if credit cards were never invented, a debit card would've worked everywhere.

Not true, because without the income which the banks get from credit cards, there would have been no offset the massive costs of a global electronic transaction system. There are very few credit/debit cards that are accepted globally because there are very few companies that managed to be successful enough to sustain the costs of such a system. Visa is taken everywhere. AMEX and Mastercard are taken in many places, but far fewer than Visa. Everything else is heavily restricted.

Without the credit card companies, the best you could hope for is to be able to use your bank debit card in the regions where your bank has a lot of customers: essentially, your local community if it's a regional bank and your country if it's a national bank. You would never be able to use it abroad or online.

[HoreTore]

Not true, because without the income which the banks get from credit cards, there would have been no offset the massive costs of a global electronic transaction system. There are very few credit/debit cards that are accepted globally because there are very few companies that managed to be successful enough to sustain the costs of such a system. Visa is taken everywhere. AMEX and Mastercard are taken in many places, but far fewer than Visa. Everything else is heavily restricted.

Without the credit card companies, the best you could hope for is to be able to use your bank debit card in the regions where your bank has a lot of customers: essentially, your local community if it's a regional bank and your country if it's a national bank. You would never be able to use it abroad or online.

Nonsense. That's like saying that I could only use my cell phone where my operator has coverage.

Of course someone would've found a way to resolve this issue, simply because it's in everyones interest that we can spend money when we want to. Especially so for the tourist locations.

[TinCow]

Nonsense. That's like saying that I could only use my cell phone where my operator has coverage.

That's true, I didn't think of that. However, in that situation you're paying extra, which is not the case with credit cards. 'Roaming' charges for cell phones tend to be pretty high, just like ATM fees for machines that don't belong to your bank. Like I said, using a credit card actively saves me money.

Personally, I do believe that credit card companies behave dishonestly and exploit customers. At the same time, I think the majority of blame falls on the people who abuse their own credit cards. Financial responsibility is entirely within one's own control. Act like an idiot and you'll end up broke even if you have a high income. Act intelligently and you'll never have debt problems even with low income. It's all a matter of living within your means, and (at least in the US) a lot of people don't seem to understand that.

[HoreTore]

That's true, I didn't think of that. However, in that situation you're paying extra, which is not the case with credit cards. 'Roaming' charges for cell phones tend to be pretty high, just like ATM fees for machines that don't belong to your bank. Like I said, using a credit card actively saves me money.

That's because they make the most money from these people:

Personally, I do believe that credit card companies behave dishonestly and exploit customers. At the same time, I think the majority of blame falls on the people who abuse their own credit cards. Financial responsibility is entirely within one's own control. Act like an idiot and you'll end up broke even if you have a high income. Act intelligently and you'll never have debt problems even with low income. It's all a matter of living within your means, and (at least in the US) a lot of people don't seem to understand that.

If they hadn't existed and everyone behaved responsibly, of course they would have to charge you for each transaction.

[TinCow]

If they hadn't existed and everyone behaved responsibly, of course they would have to charge you for each transaction.

Good point. Keep spending, idiots!

[HoreTore]

Good point. Keep spending, idiots!

....Unfortunately, that's also a lose for us, because it shifts the focus of the economy towards the financial system and away from production... And 2008 isn't that long ago, is it?


And to bring this thread back to its origins, wealth redistribution, it has to be said that one of the most succesful ways of keeping the poor poor and make the rich even richer, is the invention of the credit card, or what it really should be called "loans that nobody will ask any questions about that you'll pay through the nose for". When the banks give me the loan I need to buy a home, they'll turn my economy upside down and ensure that I can actually make my payments. Credit card loans on the other hand, are thrown at you.

[rvg]

Credit card industry greatly rewards those who are capable of making sound financial decisions, so I'm all for it. In fact, the credit card industry loses money on guys like me. Thus, I require a protective cushion of idiots for my own financial well being.

[TinCow]

And to bring this thread back to its origins, wealth redistribution, it has to be said that one of the most succesful ways of keeping the poor poor and make the rich even richer, is the invention of the credit card, or what it really should be called "loans that nobody will ask any questions about that you'll pay through the nose for". When the banks give me the loan I need to buy a home, they'll turn my economy upside down and ensure that I can actually make my payments. Credit card loans on the other hand, are thrown at you.

While this is true, I don't think that even a radical move like eliminating credit cards will solve that problem. There are many, many businesses that thrive off of usurious interest rates. Everything from used car dealers to furniture stores to 'debt consolidation' agencies. If you want to see how bad this problem has gotten, you need look no further than Rent N' Roll. That's right... you can buy car tires and rims with a custom loan. As long as people are willing to take out loans to buy chrome rims, this problem will continue. Even without credit cards, people will find ways to get loans they cannot afford. Education needs to be the first line of defense. Once people know how to live off a balanced budget, the usurers will cease to be a problem.