Horse Archers are BROKEN in 1.2 patch!

[vs the world]

Sam, with the risk of this sounding sardonic, could you please provide some historical facts or references that support your point? So far, you have used nothing but conjecture and feebly related examples to reach your opinion.

[RJV]

legends and sporting events do not make real combat tactics, red harvest. Do you honestly think that horse archers could be effective in that sudden moment when they are required to turn and flee to avoid persuit? no, it just isnt realistic.

Granted that when charged by cavalry there would have been a great incentive to focus on the riding rather than the firing. However, consider that when being charged the horse archers would likely have had quite a head start so would have been able to concentrate on firing anyway. And when being charged by foot troops the horse obviously has quite the edge in speed, so again the riders would have been able to concentrate on firing.

These civilisations (for want of a better word) grew up in the saddle. They would have been on horseback since they could walk. They would have been using bows for a similar length of time. The riding would be second nature. The arrow fire would be very effective as disruptive fire - let's face it, would the charging troops be keen to get an arrow in the face?

While we can all accept that battle reports of the time would probably have been subject to some embellishment, I think you should take a bit of time to consider that people of the past may just have been quite competent at this sort of thing.

Cheers,

Rob.

[lt1956]

Personally I do not mind that the Archers dont ride and shoot, I just kill them anyway and never play them. lol

But on a serious note, its true that ancient Horse archers DID shoot while riding. I also have a tape on the history alive that also has experts stating this. Infact AandE.com has a DVD called Barbarians, in it, it speaks of Horse archers and firing while riding, Something with the Bow allowing this.

The reason CA removed this is clear, there was a problem in the game and especially MP that made them moving machineguns. lol People in MP games built ARMIES of HA's and were winning, since the vanilla archers are overpowered they just removed the feature to fire while moving unless javelins. Makes sense to fix a problem that many complained about with Multiplayer.

Someone says this can be fixed by adding thrown, and that is probably true, but the side effects are unknown.

Also Elephants DO fire while moving, while balancing SPQR mod, I noticed the Elephant Archers firing while moving many times, not just the first time then stop. They do fire LESS though, I did notice this. The most likely changed the animations.

Pilums fire faster thank goodness!

Hope this helps, I only read a few posts since I know all I want to know already on the M16E4. lol

Lt1956

[Bhruic]

Guys, maybe it's time to just give up and accept the fact that even if you had a time machine, and could take him back in time and show him horse archers performing the way you've described, he still wouldn't accept that as evidence.

I mean, really, when someone plugs their ears and hums loudly, ignoring all the evidence, there's no point in continuing to argue. In the end it doesn't really matter, realistic or not, this was obviously a bug, as shown by the current workaround. Let's focus on that, and see if it works 100% of the time.

Bh

[Colovion]

Guys, maybe it's time to just give up and accept the fact that even if you had a time machine, and could take him back in time and show him horse archers performing the way you've described, he still wouldn't accept that as evidence.

I mean, really, when someone plugs their ears and hums loudly, ignoring all the evidence, there's no point in continuing to argue. In the end it doesn't really matter, realistic or not, this was obviously a bug, as shown by the current workaround. Let's focus on that, and see if it works 100% of the time.

Bh

THat's kind of why I stayed away from this one.

[RJV]

Guys, maybe it's time to just give up and accept the fact that even if you had a time machine, and could take him back in time and show him horse archers performing the way you've described, he still wouldn't accept that as evidence.

I mean, really, when someone plugs their ears and hums loudly, ignoring all the evidence, there's no point in continuing to argue. In the end it doesn't really matter, realistic or not, this was obviously a bug, as shown by the current workaround. Let's focus on that, and see if it works 100% of the time.

Bh

OK, say no more

[Jambo]

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

[Puzz3D]

If the altered stat fixes the archers, and it seems it does, that's fine, but CA should issue an updated patch that fixes this, and fixes it properly, anyway. There may also be improvements to multiplayer connectivity that can be made, and the building browser scoll bug that could be fixed.

[Ginger]

Hate to jump on the band wagon (and apologies for repeating this if its been already said), but Sam- where did you get the notion that napoleonic horsemen didnt carry muskets?? many light cavelry carried carbines- Shortened because there was a need for light horse to have a long arm, but the full length musket was difficult to draw and fire FROM HORSEBACK.

Granted they wouldnt have been that accurate (but then neither was a normal musket) and may not have fired on the move much, but still a long way from "Napoleonic cavalry didnt carry muskets".

On another note- kudos to all who have sorted the patch issues

[SpencerH]

Hate to jump on the band wagon (and apologies for repeating this if its been already said), but Sam- where did you get the notion that napoleonic horsemen didnt carry muskets?? many light cavelry carried carbines- Shortened because there was a need for light horse to have a long arm, but the full length musket was difficult to draw and fire FROM HORSEBACK.

Werent they 'specialist' units i.e. carabiners? I dont think other cav types such as dragoons or lancers carried firearms.

[Doug-Thompson]

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

Hear, hear.

[Red Harvest]

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

I have yet to find any major problems with it for the 15 camel/chariot/horse archers.

For elephants it doesn't really seem to fix things. They tend to fire once on the move, then they stop firing. If you issue another movement or attack command they fire once again, then stop. Rinse, repeat. Elephants seem to be different since they lack a skirmish mode.

[Ginger]

I thought that a variety of light cavalry troops including dragoons carried carbines at one point or another, but ill wind my neck in as i am really not that well versed in cavalry stuff.

anyway, to elephants, here here!!

[Doug-Thompson]

I have yet to find any major problems with it for the 15 camel/chariot/horse archers.

For elephants it doesn't really seem to fix things. They tend to fire once on the move, then they stop firing. If you issue another movement or attack command they fire once again, then stop. Rinse, repeat. Elephants seem to be different since they lack a skirmish mode.

That's a problem. Elephants don't have skirmish nor Cantabrian circle.

[hrvojej]

Also, elephants have reversed alt-attack - clicking without alt actually causes a melee attack, unlike the rest of the mounted archers. However, the stat_pri is still for arrows. I tried changing both attacks to thrown, but it didn't help.

If anybody, folks up on the elephants should be able to shoot to their heart's desire. It definitively leads me to believe that this was a "tweak" and not a bug, a flawed solution to make the HA/elephants/etc. less "overpowering". A bit silly really, just like the battlescarred trait showing up after every battle, even when the general never did any fighting, to make the generals more durable (btw, has anyone managed to find the fix for this one yet??).

[Orda Khan]

Whereas a file change will 'fix' the problem, that is all very well if you only play SP. Online games require all to have same stats.

It's not Horse Archers that are broken, RTW is broken!

.....Orda

[Slyspy]

I thought that a variety of light cavalry troops including dragoons carried carbines at one point or another, but ill wind my neck in as i am really not that well versed in cavalry stuff.

anyway, to elephants, here here!!

Most cavalry carried carbines and other short firearms in addition to pistols etc but they were neither trained nor expected to fire on the move or even from the saddle. The weapons were issued purely to increase the flexibility of cavalry units so they could tackle infantry in cover if necessary eg when on patrol etc.

[Red Harvest]

Also, elephants have reversed alt-attack - clicking without alt actually causes a melee attack, unlike the rest of the mounted archers. However, the stat_pri is still for arrows. I tried changing both attacks to thrown, but it didn't help.

If anybody, folks up on the elephants should be able to shoot to their heart's desire. It definitively leads me to believe that this was a "tweak" and not a bug, a flawed solution to make the HA/elephants/etc. less "overpowering".

I doubt it was intentional. It looks like something is accidentally halting the sequence and restarting it. The key is that they aren't even firing when they stop (horse archers in skirmish or elephants period.) In skirmish the HA's will go through the whole sequence while stopped, and I hear the sound of arrows, but none are fired, then they run away. Every once in awhile they actually fire.

They had to work on the FF code and the pri/sec bug, and before I could not get HA's to quit targeting nearby enemies (and my own men) when they were being charged off elsewhere. I suspect they just didn't do a thorough enough check.

Any of the beta testers still able to run the beta .EXE and see if this is a result of the pri/sec bug fix, or if it was present in the beta?

[Bob the Insane]

Running some tests on this in custom battle using both Parthians and Sycthians (spelling?) I have found a few things...

1. HA will fire while on the move...

2. But (and it is a big but) if they are in skirmish mode and are moving away from the enemy then they will not fire, until they have reached minimum safe distance... In my tests the HA would fire at the unit approaching it until it was close enough that they skirmished away and then when they reached a safe distance would start the firing animation again. But if the troops chasing them are running the HA would have not have enough time to actually fire before having to skirmish away again...

3. HA will not fire directly to the rear, I found a effective tactic to deal with a unit of troops chasing HA is to have them zig zagging across in front allowing the HA to fire...

4. The Cantibarian Circle (spelling?) is still very effect and HA in skirmish mode using the CC work fine...

5. Another little observation was that HA seem particularly affected by the new anti FF stuff (logical considering they were highly effected by FF original). I think this mean that a lot of the time the volumn of fire you get out of a unformed unit of HA is quite low...

No conclusions there just observations but I would like to hear other's opinions...

[nickersonm]

FYI the archers on Carthaginian War Elephants have been working fine for me in 1.2 - both stationary and while marching/running. I killed 2000 units in a seige with it, so there is no question about it. I haven't checked specifically to see if the arrows affect the targets while the mount is engaged in combat, but I believe it is. Haven't encountered HAs yet in 1.2.

- nickersonm

[Sam Adams]

my war elephants fire as long as their target isnt directly at their feet.

[QwertyMIDX]

I didn't have any problems with War Elephants either. I will check it out more carefully later.

[{Pharaoh}Anubis{Pha}]

After there's been enough testing to show that Qwerty's fix doesn't have any bad side effects on non-skirmishing combat, such as firing from a distance, that needs to be put in a fix and posted somewhere.

At the very least, it appears to be a big step in the right direction. Thanks, QwertyMIDX.

what is the name of the file he is teawkin on? i was thinking on doing this,
uninstall rtw 1.2 and delete the remaining rtw folder and reinstall the rtw game and then make a copy of the whole game by winraring it and renaming the rtw winrar to rtw_backup and then install the 1.2 patch to the reinstalled game,and then unzip the rtw_backup and use the file for the HA or arrows and move it to the rtw1.2,you think this will work guys?

you can have the rtw_backup "unpatched"as a cross between files? for the 1.2
something in a way i made the spartan hoplite at the official rtw webbie 1.2 compatible by deleting the 4 spartan hoplite .rum files

[RJV]

what is the name of the file he is teawkin on? i was thinking on doing this,
uninstall rtw 1.2 and delete the remaining rtw folder and reinstall the rtw game and then make a copy of the whole game by winraring it and renaming the rtw winrar to rtw_backup and then install the 1.2 patch to the reinstalled game,and then unzip the rtw_backup and use the file for the HA or arrows and move it to the rtw1.2,you think this will work guys?

you can have the rtw_backup "unpatched"as a cross between files? for the 1.2
something in a way i made the spartan hoplite at the official rtw webbie 1.2 compatible by deleting the 4 spartan hoplite .rum files

Eh?

It's only one file that needs changing - just back that one up. Have I missed the point?

[R'as al Ghul]

So, I've been away a few weeks and the patch is out. Nice!
Horse Archers are now broken again? How could that happen?
I mean I was really surprised to see them "really" work in the vanilla version. Other HorseArcher-Fans like Doug agreed with me that it's the first time CA did them right. It was a pain to nanny them in M:TW. Medieval MP was nearly impossible to win with muslim factions due to this. What a joy it was to see them do the Parthian Shot, finally shooting on the move with working skirmish-engine etc, etc.
Now that these features are gone, I don't think I'll even touch the game any more although I was looking forward to playtest the new features, repaired bugs. Instead I'm going to play some more Pirates!
Also nice to see that the historical question, if HA could shoot while moving, still isn't clear.
Well, it's not that this question was discussed before, is it?


Gah!

[Spino]

I gave the 'stat_primary_attr' fix a try by changing the variable from 'no' to 'thrown' for all mounted archer units (war & armored elephants excepted) and it worked like a charm! Set up a Parthia vs. Seleucid battle and the Horse Archers and Persian Cavalry cleaned house, no more fudged archery and the Parthian shot now works like it should. The good news is the bow reloading and firing animation is the same as before.

Thanks for the fix!

[Doug-Thompson]

Whereas a file change will 'fix' the problem, that is all very well if you only play SP. Online games require all to have same stats.

True.

[Red Harvest]

I didn't have any problems with War Elephants either. I will check it out more carefully later.

They will fire once while moving, then not fire again while moving. If you issue more commands, they will begin firing again, but left to themselves, they stop firing. It has the looks of a "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" sort of problem. When you mouse hover over them it says nothing about firing/reloading etc, except for the first volley. After that the archers just stand there.

[Hambut_bulge]

Can also confirm that applying Qwerty's excellent fix for the HA's to War/Armoured Elephants doesn't make a blind bit of difference to their behaviour. As Red Harvest said, they fire one volley per move command. Like the HA bug they do have a little bow and arow icon on the unit card, but just don't fire after that first volley.

Ooops....

[{Pharaoh}Anubis{Pha}]

Guys, why don't we return the more important issue of testing Qwerty's fix and seeing if it works and indeed is even necessary for Elephants for example.

where is the file so i can add this fix