The politics of games.

[caravel]

I disagree as it boils down to the Moderator/Staff choosing which threads are allowed based on personal preference. Yes those threads may be boring but if they don't break any rules they should be allowed. The are plenty of boring threads in other forums and they don't all have backrooms (dumping grounds) for these threads. The moment they get political/controversial backroom them, otherwise they should be left where they are.

[Faust|]

I like what Zenicetus and Navaros had to say for the most part.

[frogbeastegg]

No, I propose the creation of a new sub-forum inside the Arena for such discussion, as noted in the very first line of my first post.

You've also said you are sick of seeing these posts. My point is, either you'll be reading them because they are in the arena, or you won't because they aren't. Creating a backroom does not alter this.

I wrote the arena's description years ago, same as I wrote the welcome topic and rules. The arena is - and always has been - for computer games, or, as they've been called by society and the internet at large for most of my life, games. Hence the way everything talks about demos, platforms, consoles, handhelds, PCs ... Conversely, board games are still called board games, card games are called card games, and war games war games. If I'd meant to refer to them then I'd have done so. On the very rare occasions someone has posted a topic on a traditional game I've tended let it pass because there is no correct forum for those topics. They show up in the front room too, and fit there equally well. If people want to talk about painting warhammer miniatures then it's mostly off-topic. If they want to talk about the evil ethics behind them then it's totally off-topic. EA's ethics still have some relation to games.

Agreed on wanting the patrons' views. It's why I posted the link; it would have been sad if people missed this topic and didn't get chance to have their say. I'm not the only one who doesn't get out and about much. If anything gets changed (or not) as many people as possible should be content with the decision.

Well, from a legal perspective I don't think that's quite right.

From a legal perspective we can discuss whatever we like, provided we're not giving out links to cracks or telling people how to pirate games. From a working perspective, we've had upset messages about certain topics discussing things like secuROM.

Anyone guess why I hold the Arena dear?

Is it because you can play with our friendly lions and build sandcastles on the fighting ground?




How do people feel about a light compromise? Keep the games threads targeted more towards games, and keep the bulk of the DRM and similar discussion in a seperate topic in the same forum? Not a total seperation, just an attempt to reduce the way some games threads end up being more about the copy protection than the playing experience. Not heavy mod action, just a post nudging the discussion back towards the game and highlighting the other thread.

Yes, in the end it comes down to mod discretion. However it's usually easy to see when a thread is running too far off topic, and it's usually very simple to solve with a single post.

I stress that this wouldn't remove all DRM discussion from the game topic. The idea is to divert the flow if and when it threatens to drown.




And for everyone saying the arena is quiet, it wouldn't be if people spent more time talking about games and less time playing them!

[Mouzafphaerre]

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How do people feel about a light compromise? Keep the games threads targeted more towards games, and keep the bulk of the DRM and similar discussion in a separate topic in the same forum?

No. It's little different from splitting the forum. The games exist with everything related to them. We can't and should not separate issues like DRM, system incompatibilities, breaking bugs etc. from the in-game stuff. It was the whole point of my post. (That aside, self censorship is hardly the right way to go. )
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[Kekvit Irae]

We could always implement a word filter system. Simply filter every third word in the Arena to 'StarDock'. Everyone loves StarDock, so using this method everyone in the Arena would be happy.

Let's take (with apologies) Mouza's post above as an example:

It's little StarDock from splitting StarDock forum. The StarDock exist with StarDock related to StarDock. We can't StarDock should not StarDock issues like StarDock, system incompatibilities, StarDock bugs etc. StarDock the in-game StarDock. It was StarDock whole point StarDock my post. (StarDock aside, self StarDock is hardly StarDock right way to StarDock.

[Martok]

How do people feel about a light compromise? Keep the games threads targeted more towards games, and keep the bulk of the DRM and similar discussion in a seperate topic in the same forum? Not a total seperation, just an attempt to reduce the way some games threads end up being more about the copy protection than the playing experience. Not heavy mod action, just a post nudging the discussion back towards the game and highlighting the other thread.

That would be fine with me, at least in theory. I'm a little concerned, however, that it could adversely affect threads about games inextricably linked to DRM (such as Bioshock, Mass Effect, and the now-infamous Spore) -- if invasive and/or inconvenient copy protection software is a major issue with a PC title, then I don't feel it should be shunted off to a general discussion thread about DRM.

Or are we actually mostly in agreement on this, and I'm just rambling on for no good reason?

And for everyone saying the arena is quiet, it wouldn't be if people spent more time talking about games and less time playing them!

Hey, now! I'll have you know that some of us do our part, thank you very much. I spend way too much time talking about games and not enough time playing them (heck, it's pretty much my MO at this point).

[Mouzafphaerre]

We could always implement a word filter system. Simply filter every third word in the Arena to 'StarDock'. Everyone loves StarDock, so using this method everyone in the Arena would be happy.

Let's take (with apologies) Mouza's post above as an example:

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Apologies?! You've just made me laugh out my guts!
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[Husar]

I take offense by the statement that everybody loves StarDock as I do not have a single game of theirs.
I demand an apology, a foot massage and the replacement of seven "StarDock"s by "Valve" in the offending piece of quote...

On the actual issue, I think mentioning the bad copy protection used in the game in a thread about the game is pretty fine but when the whole thread fills up with "I won't StarDock it because of the Valve used!!!1111 " and then a lengthy repost of the same old "The StarDocks will Valve it anyway because this Valve never works, give them 3 StarDocks and it's Valve by the StarDocks and this is screwing with their StarDock Valve anyway and I'm so angry etc. blaValve" then you end up with the same posts in every second thread which makes me think that one topic to cover all sorts of copy protection makes more sense while the game threads can mention it once or twice for those who may not know the game is protected by copy protection x or y and do not want to read the endless ramblings in the copy protection thread. That way everybody gets the vital info and them freedom-loving capitalists can get their thread to be annoyed about copy protections.

[pevergreen]

freedom-loving capitalists.

I love those guys!

Also, possibly the best "post" ever by Kek.

[Abokasee]

...I would rather see a thousand posts complaining about the gameplay of a favorite game than one more post of someone getting on their knees and performing sexual favors on StarDock's proverbial male genitalia....

These words shall echo across the forums.

[TosaInu]

How do people feel about a light compromise? Keep the games threads targeted more towards games, and keep the bulk of the DRM and similar discussion in a seperate topic in the same forum? Not a total seperation, just an attempt to reduce the way some games threads end up being more about the copy protection than the playing experience. Not heavy mod action, just a post nudging the discussion back towards the game and highlighting the other thread.

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No. It's little different from splitting the forum. The games exist with everything related to them. We can't and should not separate issues like DRM, system incompatibilities, breaking bugs etc. from the in-game stuff. It was the whole point of my post. (That aside, self censorship is hardly the right way to go. )
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Hello,

I think there are some keywords in frogbeasteggs proposal: more and bulk.

I think it's little different from requesting to stay on topic.

I think it's fine to mention cons and pros with a gametitle in the topic about that game, that includes DRM, bugs and compatibilities.

Just the DRM discussion is a multi-post discussion on its own, there's no problem when that's thoroughly
discussed. When done thoroughly in the very topic, there's the risk of the entire topic continuing about just that. When a topic gets mixed with another discussion, even when closely related, a spin-off topic can be made.

You could also make a DRM in general discussion.

[Lemur]

DRM is part of the gamers' world right now, like it or not, and I'm terribly sorry if peoples' approval of the StarDock business model makes you break out in hives. If you aren't getting reported posts to deal with and your time is being consumed by people "getting on their knees and performing sexual favors on StarDock's proverbial male genitalia," then it sure sounds like you have too much time on your hands.

[Crazed Rabbit]

How do people feel about a light compromise? Keep the games threads targeted more towards games, and keep the bulk of the DRM and similar discussion in a seperate topic in the same forum? Not a total seperation, just an attempt to reduce the way some games threads end up being more about the copy protection than the playing experience. Not heavy mod action, just a post nudging the discussion back towards the game and highlighting the other thread.

I must disagree again.

DRM is an important part of the discussion for individual games. Each individual game has different DRM, and it'd be confusing to separate the discussion of a single game into two threads. And the DRM thread would have discuss a bunch of different game's DRM, which would again be confusing.

I'm really not seeing the problem with talking about DRM as we currently do in the arena. It's part of gaming; it may not be what you would prefer to read about, but unfortunately for all of us it is relevant.

CR

[Kekvit Irae]

DRM, while it has to do with the games, is merely copy protection that exists outside the scope of gameplay and is not limited to just games. It has virtually nothing do with the actual gameplay. We already have a forum devoted to such technical aspects.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Um, so now you want us to talk about DRM in the hardware and software forum? The arena isn't just solely for discussing gameplay, but games, and DRM significantly affects games. There are many other things discussed in the arena that aren't strictly gameplay, so...

What's the big problem?

CR

[Ja'chyra]

DRM, while it has to do with the games, is merely copy protection that exists outside the scope of gameplay and is not limited to just games. It has virtually nothing do with the actual gameplay. We already have a forum devoted to such technical aspects.

Now you've changed your stance, and as I've seen a few Backroomers in this thread you will be equally cheered for "Seeing the light" and ridiculed for "Caving in" usually by those who were uninterested before

But seriously, I don't see the problem with how the Arena operates at the minute, the threads cover the games in all of their aspects, positive and negative, if it focuses too much on one side it is gently nudged back on track, I believe this is the best for the actual gamers who might be trying to find out more info on the game before buying.

[Husar]

Hmmpf, now I don't know where to post what I just found, but actually I think the idea with the Hard- and Software forum isn't all that bad because DRM as it's called (I prefer copy protection because it sounds more spot-on) is basically, as I understand it, a piece of Software that the actual game is wrapped into and gives or denies access to the game, at least in theory. It's also wrong that every game has it's own DRM because it's usually SecuROM that annoys people but with different optional checks and stuff, the barebones SecuROM has no installation limits while the one used for some of them EA titles does. I think a simple sticky thread with a list of games with evil copy protection would be the least confusing option for everyone:

• Spore - SecuROM, 3 activations, internet access for activations required
• Medieval 2: Total War - SecuROM, checks for DVD on startup
• Gothic 3 - Tages, Checks for DVD on Startup and during loading screens

or maybe a table with

Game Type of CP Details

A bit like this, although similar lists might be available on other sites but if ordered alphabetically and updated regularly in the first post of a sticky it would, IMO, provide the best oversight and allow people to quickly check at any time. This would best fit in the Arena in my opinion while the technicalities of copy protection would fit in well with the Hard- and Software forum, which I'm going to try out now.

[Lemur]

An excellent idea, Husar, and it would certainly be a resource for the whole community. You write it up, I'll sticky it instantly.

[Martok]

Would something like this be helpful?

[caravel]

DRM, while it has to do with the games, is merely copy protection that exists outside the scope of gameplay and is not limited to just games. It has virtually nothing do with the actual gameplay. We already have a forum devoted to such technical aspects.

This actually makes a lot of sense. Pure DRM topics would be better discussed in the hardware/software forum, than in the Arena. Most DRM threads start out as a DRM thread and cover nothing but the DRM on the game disc. Discussions of this kind of crapware would be better suited to the hardware/software forum and would also attract more interest there.

I would say move those threads to hardware/software on the basis that they are not really gaming, but also move any future securom debates in the ETW or M2TW forum there as well. Those threads that are not purely DRM but just touch on the issue should maybe be left where they are.

Personally I would prefer this approach than creating yet more subfora that will simply end up as glorified recycle bins.

[Zenicetus]

DRM, while it has to do with the games, is merely copy protection that exists outside the scope of gameplay and is not limited to just games. It has virtually nothing do with the actual gameplay. We already have a forum devoted to such technical aspects.

Gamers use forums like this for more than just current gameplay discussion. We also use them to decide which new games to buy, based on the opinion of a community we value and trust. Like it or not, DRM is an important consideration for how we're going to be spending our money on PC games these days. The only time we can make a meaningful decision about it is before we purchase the game. You know, by talking about the dreaded subject of DRM? The feedback from early adopters is especially useful, as we decide whether to plunk down our cash on a new game, or not.

So there's your answer:

If you really don't want to be annoyed by seeing DRM conversation, then just just disallow any discussion of upcoming or newly released PC game titles in the Arena. Of course that would kill off most of the PC gaming discussion there, but you wouldn't see those "annoying" DRM threads...

[caravel]

I think the point here is that posting about a game and mentioning that it has DRM is one thing, but the full blown anti DRM threads are another. It's better that the former remain in the Arena and the latter are moved to the hardware/software forum.

[Martok]

I think the point here is that posting about a game and mentioning that it has DRM is one thing, but the full blown anti DRM threads are another. It's better that the former remain in the Arena and the latter are moved to the hardware/software forum.

Sounds reasonable to me. I do think that still leaves some things up in the air, like where my thread about Spore's Amazon protest belongs, but I trust FBE's and Kek's discretion in that regard.

[Kekvit Irae]

I think the point here is that posting about a game and mentioning that it has DRM is one thing, but the full blown anti DRM threads are another. It's better that the former remain in the Arena and the latter are moved to the hardware/software forum.

You hit it right on the nail.

[Husar]

An excellent idea, Husar, and it would certainly be a resource for the whole community. You write it up, I'll sticky it instantly.

Maybe when I'm bored, apart from the games I put into my last post I'd have to look most of them up myself.

[frogbeastegg]

Sorry, had a few issues and couldn't get the org to load for nearly a week.

TosaInu has my meaning right. Once the point is made (if you want to buy the game you should it has bad DRM, be warned!) it doesn't need to be made over and over and over ... and over. It's when that happens that the topic wanders like a little puppy.

We do need a couple of posts pointing out if a game has a nasty DRM which people may wish to be aware of before they purchase. I know I'm not alone in finding this useful.

We do not need half a page of posts all saying the DRM is bad, that the poster won't be buying, that it's a disgrace, etc etc.

It is when we hit the half a page that Kek or I would politely note that perhaps the topic is wandering a bit too much.

One other factlet to add to the mix: I'm one of the more hands-off mods here. I prefer a nudge over a shoulder barge, and if I think something will sort itself then I give it chance to. I know some people think I'm lax and soft because of it. When it comes to calling time on something off-topic I probably don't step in soon enough. So if I feel compelled to step in and say a thread has wandered too far chances are it really, truly has.



The Spore thread was teetering on the brink of being swamped. Maybe it had already staggered over the edge. But then it righted itself, and the DRM talk vanished and gameplay related discussion took the lead. The point where this swap over in focus happened is the point where this topic thudded into the foreground. Coincidence or not, I was happy to see it, and truth be told I have never held any interest in Spore (always sounded like a multi-million pound disappointment in the making IMO), and think that its DRM is a complete disgrace which should be nailed up and burned.

So one might say that all is settled of its own accord, if one is being optimistic

Hey, now! I'll have you know that some of us do our part, thank you very much. I spend way too much time talking about games and not enough time playing them (heck, it's pretty much my MO at this point).

I'm glad to see that at least one person here understands his duty. :salutes: