best faction to turtle with?

[shinderhizzle84]

hello. I play on M/M and i enjoy playing the game relatively slowly. I just can't seem to be able to push myself to play the game very aggressively. What are some good examples of factions that are strong (no ridiculously weak factions please) that a player can turtle with success? I primarily rely on cavalry, but france is not my type of faction because you are surrounded be a lot of very strong enemies. I have yet to beat a long campaign and i have owned this game for quite some time!!! any suggestions i could get on this issue would be greatly appreciated. thank you!

[FactionHeir]

If you are playing M/M, any faction is good. In fact, there is no chance the AI will ever beat you really

Generally speaking however, island factions are better off from the start, though any faction can turtle on an island. Also factions that start at a map edge have an advantage (except if that map edge happens to the the east)

[Csargo]

That basically makes England your best choice... Island at the corner of the map.

[shinderhizzle84]

yea i've tried england, theyre pretty good to turtle. My biggest problem with england is their lack of variety of cavalry. While their cavalry isn't horrible, it certainly isn't strong. I do enjoy england, but if anybody else here knows of some good turtling factions with good cavalry, that would be great. Thank you!

[PrestigeX]

I think the best factions to turtle with are..

Scotland (pike units, lots of them, cheap for cities)

Venice/Milan (spear units, halberd, good cav. militia, and ofcourse CROSS BOWS)

[PBI]

How about the Byzantines? Start with Constantinople and a good defensive position, and get very good horse archers.

[Galain_Ironhide]

I had a really good slow campaign as the Turks. You have the Byzantines to your left, with whom you can stay at peace with for a good while and you can easily expand to the east (you just have to race the Egyptians to start with).

Then you sit around managing your empire until the Mongols arrive and then the fun begins

The Turks have a good range of units which keeps you interested as well. I loved those Naffatun (naptha throwers).

Most of all, have fun with which ever faction you choose.

[Ratwar]

You might want to think about Poland. As long as you don't expand too far West, you should be able to stay at peace with everyone but the Russians for awhile, and they have some good calvary.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I would turtle with Russia.

Russia starts off weak, but isolated, and in a corner of the map. All you have to do is grab the steppes and keep an eye out for Polish invasions. Leave Poland and Denmark alone, focus on keeping your troops in a defensive position, your forces lean and your empire profitable.

Now, use diplomats to make peace and alliances. Build your territory up with farms and public order buildings, markets and so on. Make some merchants and go to Baghdad and Italy and Antioch to trade.

build some watchtowers to make an early warning system against the Poles.

In your biggest castles, make lots of stables, in your cities, barracks and blacksmiths.

Your army should consist of lots of disposable horse archers (not the expensive kind) and lots of well-armoured militia men. Low cost, but maneuverable, able, and disposable. if they die, you make another one. And another.

Eventually, you should invade Denmark and Scandinavia. And then take over the British Isles, and be the ruler of the North.

When the Mongols come, move your capital and your main forces into Denmark and become the Viking horde... assault France and the HRE, and dont worry about the Mongols. Let them come.

Should be fun.

[shinderhizzle84]

howabout hungary? are they any good to turtle with? i'd do russia but they seeem waaay too hard (even on m/m, which is what i play.) I'd do poland but i personally like their counterparts, the hungarians.

[Yaropolk]

I think england is best turlte faction, as mentioned, on an island, corner of map, wide variety of longbows to use for defensive purposes. Declare a few crusades early in the game on rebel cities in europe and you'll have Templar or Hospitallier knights, two top tier options before you even get english knights!

I went straight Mailed -> Hospitallier with them.

[PBI]

Can you Crusade against (Catholic) European rebels? I thought the Pope only allowed crusades against non-Catholics.

[FactionHeir]

You can crusade against any rebels as long as those provinces are known to the game as valid crusade targets.

[Shahed]

I think the most fun I've had turtling is with Scotland (owning the isles). Nice small elite army, with the occasional foray into the mainland to loot some wine, beer, chocolates and other goodies for morale.

[Zaleukos]

Denmark, Scotland, and England are prime turtling factions. Either faction can conquer the British isles + Scandinavia for an extremely defensible base (and if you only have the British isles any invader will accept peace proposals due to the lack of land border). While these arent cavalry specialists I find both English and Danish cavalry perfectly adequate. Both can recruit cavalry from cities (Demi Lancers and War Clerics), English knights have charge and Armour, and the Danes get Chivalric knights. You can also opt for Templars/hospitallers in the cities. So it should be perfectly possible to play these guys as cavalry factions.

Otherwise Portugal/Spain/The Moors are good for turtling. The Pyrenees can easily be blocked from Northern invaders and you will mostly be left alone in Africa as long as you dont take Tunis (and even if you do it is easy to buy off invaders since the invaders wont have a land border against you.

Regarding Cavalry: Of the catholic factions only Scotland, Milan, and Venice are really disadvantaged in Cavalry, and they can all make up for it with Templars/Hospitallers. At any rate the only difference between Catholics is in the top tier Cavalry where English/Portuguese knights have slightly worse melee stats and the French and Germans have super heavies, and this is IMHO not very significant. The main asset for heavy cavalry is the charge value, and Chiv/Gothic/English/Noble/Lancers/Polish knights/Polish retainers/ ALL have the same charge value.

EDIT: I guess you can play the moors as a light cavalry faction (Arab Cavalry tends to die off quickly but is plentiful and available early) and they will also get Christian guards late in the game (more or less equivalent to western Knights).

[G^2]

Sicily is also an option to turtle with. As long as you stay away form Corsica, Sardinia, and Durazzo, no one should really bother you. Since your in the middle of the Mediterranean, you can establish good trade routes and you can buy Bolougue form the HRE. The key is to make an alliance with the pope and keep your relations with him perfect, then if you do get attacked, that faction gets ex-communicated. If you get bored, Tunis and North Africa are easy targets to expand too.

As for calvary, Sicily has the powerful Norman Knights and if you expand into Tunis, Knights Hosplitar and Templar.

[Zaleukos]

Yeah I forgot Sicily. Buy Bologna and give it to the pope, take Tunis, Tripoli, Algiers, Marrakesh, Timbuktu and Arguin and noone will bother you, save the odd landing outside Tunis (which resemble Caernarvon in that some stupid faction that doesnt have any business there still likes to land there). Merchants in Tumbuktu and Arguin will help an already strong economy even further.

The only question is where to make Castle troops. Palermo is better as a city, and Tunis is also an excellent city. Maybe Algiers, but it is a few extra turns away from everything... I'd probably keep Palermo a castle in this scenario as the location is very central.

[Archpedant]

Any faction at any level of difficulty can be played turtle if you put enough thought into it .

To avoid attacks:

a) always strongly garrison settlements (if you are playing defensively you don't need a field army or navy so this is not that difficult to afford)

b) ally with everyone

c) never attack anyone and offer peace every move if you are attacked

d) build forts garrisoned by peasants at every choke point an invader has to cross (as England I built seven in two rows just south of the Scottish border and was never attacked even at VH/VH).

e) keep the Pope happy

f) convert most castles to cities, build economic structures and use money to hire mercenaries that can be easily disbanded after a crisis has passed - rather than waste money and time building military structures that will recruit inferior troops anyway.

Also note that many factions can field powerful cavalry from top level marksman ranges - the Milanese and HRE for instance get mounted crossbows which combined with some knights can be an unbeatable combination.

In this respect the English get rather shafted as historically they should have mounted longbows but for some reason these are given to the French instead (whether longbows were ever actually used from horseback is another question - most commentators say its impossible but the Japanese certainly used 5-foot long long bows while mounted)

[Old Geezer]

Is it acceptable turtle behaviour to attack rebel settlements or to go on crusade? If one is attacked can one take any of the offending faction's provinces?

[Jason X]

for cav flavoured slow campaign, i'd like to second the turk/egypt initial (jihad) land grab followed by turtling (sipahi/qupulukus or mamluk archers)

or any iberian faction (jinetes!)

russia is a good choice but you might feel it's too slow/difficult without crusades - the trick is too ramp up the chiv of your governers for the pop growth.

check the faction guides

[FactionHeir]

Is it acceptable turtle behaviour to attack rebel settlements or to go on crusade? If one is attacked can one take any of the offending faction's provinces?

Since its a singleplayer game, whatever you do is acceptable
The game won't enforce anything on you - the only rules that are set are by yourself (and the limitations of the mod you are playing)

[G^2]

@ Old Geezer,

Generally, turtling is when one plays defensively and focuses on technology and using diplomacy instead of battling. Thus, a turtle would not attack any faction but generally would attack nearby rebels to gain a small empire. Once consolidated, the turtle would then look to its defenses and use diplomacy to stay out of conflicts. Also, the turtle needs to play a high chivalry game to keep their reputation up.

Personally, if I were purely turtling I would not go on crusades and would not attack enemy provinces except rebel. However, I never play my games like that but generally find them more enjoyable when I strike a balance. I prefer slow advances and dreadful generals.

Just my opinion.

[Archpedant]

One important thing is to ignore most missions - almost every settlement your council wants you to conquer will eventually embroil you in a war with somebody else who wants it (Durazzo in particular which is perhaps the most worthless starting settlement on the whole map but strangely attractive to neighbours) and the rewards offered are almost never worth the hassle of conquering and defending the target (2,500 florins, 3 or 4 'best' units that you can recruit yourself if you really need).

Similarly instantly obeying the Pope means endless wars with everyone he falls out with - faced by a demand to blockade or break alliances I always wait it out and in most cases the faction will reconcile before the time limit expires.

Crusades are another matter - I tend to put all my out of date and surplus units on a boat under my oldest general and set off just before the time limit expires - then if he doesn't die en route, or the settlement isn't taken by someone else, you then starve it out on arrival and give it to the Pope or sell it to the highest bidder (the former owner will often pay you handsomely for it back and a ceasefire) after sacking and dismantling if in spite of everything you do manage to take it.

Such tactics are incidentally not that unhistorical - many more kings and nobles took the cross than ever went on crusade and their are several examples of crusades getting diverted (4th) or ending in bloodless negotiation (Frederick II).

Alternatively send a young general who needs the personality boosts and bring him back afterwards.

[shinderhizzle84]

yea i'd do sicily but taken all those rebel muslim provinces, for me, at least, is too much work :D Yes, i AM that lazy ;) No, but seriously. Denmark is another good choice for me, they are one of my favs, but pretty much right from the beginning of the game i always find myself being attacked by either the poles, the hre, the french, and sometimes (actually, more like "usually") i find myself being attacked my more than one of these factions all at the same time. england, again, i like....but too little variety of cavalry. i made a turks campaign and called a jihad on constantinople and am doing pretty good.....i like jihads :D

my only problem with the turks is their location (for the mongols and timurids.) I suck against the two big horde factions and would like to be able to have a bit more time to amass armies to prepare against the mongol threat instead of having them at my welcome mat from their 1st turn on the campaign map. I will try doing sicily, it shouldn't be THAT hard. if i find it is strictly aganst my laziness constitution then i will just have to sick to the brits. keep all the suggestions coming guys! Great help so far!

[Flavius Merobaudes]

I'd recommend Spain. Unite the Iberian peninsula under one banner quickly, then consolidate in a secure position. Spanish late era units are superb, so it's actually worth prolonging the campaign. And of course they are far away from the hordes...

[shinderhizzle84]

i do love spain, but their early game is much too fast paced for me. I was just doing sicily until about turn 50, when i randomly went deep into debt in one turn (wtf???). lol, i had like, 9000 florins one turn and then the next i had -1032 or something like that lol...weird...

[G^2]

@ shinderhizzle84

Things to consider for drop in income.

1)Did someone declare war on you? If so you lost trade right with that faction.

2)Did you recently create a large army or fleet? Perhaps your income can't support the upkeep for it. Also, fleets are increadably expensive to maintain.

3)Did you construct an expernsive building? This can also cause a trade deficet (sp?) for a turn or two.

4)Sometimes you have bad harvests which can fluctuate your income, also trade lanes can change for example Marselle could have constructed a port redirecting trade in Genoa from Naples.

My guess is someone blocked one of your ports for one turn and thus you have lost trade rights with them. Check in the diplomacy scroll and see if your at war with anyone.

[shinderhizzle84]

yea that's got to be it: the stupid hre randomly blockaded naples. the funny thing is that i don't ever really remember ever granting trade rights with them, so.....w/e i will try to make a ceasefire or something, or at least get some trade rights with the milanese and venitians (they are both filthy rich, like, 50 cent rich :D) then hopefully i will be able to continue producing norman knights (who, btw, i must say, freaking rock!!!)

still people, don't stop giving me suggesstions just because i've found a good faction! By all means, please keep them coming!!

[ArtistofWarfare]

I like to turtle early myself...identify where my attacker will come from, and prepare my first "push" in the way of a counter attack. For various reasons.

Is Venice a decent faction to turtle with? I've heard their late game is strong...navy/tech. And I do like Venetian Heavy Inf already.

[G^2]

@ ArtistofWarfare

Personally, everytime I play as Venice someone tends to attack me early on. Thus, I personally would not use them as a turtal faction. Even when my reputation was high, there are just too many factions that share borders with Vinece.

Turtling aside, Vinece is one of my favorite factions to play as and has great units and plenty of options for expantion which makes for an interesting game.