Auto-ceasefire with the pope?

[I of the Storm]

Repeatedly I have read here that people manage to get an auto ceasefire with the pope after siegeing him in the papal states (his last province) until the last possible turn (i.e. when "it's about to fall") and then pulling out.
I did that.
I did not get an auto ceasefire.

Come to think of it, I'm not surprised. auto cf's only happen due to lack of contact. A surrounded last province, albeit unsieged, isn't exactly lack of contact.

On the other hand, this would be the only way to fulfill the roman empire GA without having to spend the rest of the game excommed and at war with the pope.

So: Auto-Ceasefire: Myth or Reality ?

[Youngie]

i Would say its a myth. i to also tryed this and could never get a ceasefire of them. I am a fan of giving the pope his little papal state to keep him happy. You could fight the reemergences there all well and good they offer up vital training for generals. but i find this is not wise if you are a your a catholic faction.

[macsen rufus]

It usually works every time for me - if a castle is under siege by your forces you can withdraw from the province and so long as the besieged enemy doesn't sally, contact is broken. Obviously it depends on the besieged faction's entire army being in that castle, and the presence of any ships can also maintain contact if they are in a sea region next to one of your territories or a sea region you control.

I've done this many times with the Pope to keep him holed up in the Papal States.

[Caerfanan]

Yes, but that doesn't put you at peace with the guy, right? You just leave the province, if not by water and removing the boats, you don't get the cease fire, do you?

EDIT: Oh... If the only contact is by land and that's the last province, it works??
EDIT2: yes, I'm learning to read!

[I of the Storm]

So, in that specific case it's important NOT to have ships in the adriatic sea? And also if the papacy has ships running around it's going to be difficult, right?

[macsen rufus]

Right That siege really needs to be your only point of contact.

Edit: It just occured to me that is probably why it works best if you do it with a re-emerged Papacy -- they haven't had time to build any ships yet

[PershsNhpios]

I have seen the Genoese, Venetians and Sicilians all conquer the Papal States and Rome, and hold them for over 50 years before losing them to a re-emergence.

Currently, as Venice, I control from Bavaria to Sicily, and from Austria to Savoy - but I am afraid to take Rome and the Papal States because of what has been mentioned here.

Can't I simply overwhelm them with a military like the AI and keep loyalty above 120%?

[macsen rufus]

The Papacy will ALWAYS re-emerge, regardless of loyalty, regardless of the size of your garrison. In fact keeping a large garrison is going to be worse for you once the Pope does come back, as his forces will be scaled to yours. That's why you need to cripple the faction and shunt it into the Papal States - if it's still alive it can't re-emerge

[Vladimir]

If you play a northern Italian faction and you don't play "keep the pope down" you're cheating. It's the only logical way to counter the advantage of all those sweet Italian units.

[Prussian1]

The Papacy will ALWAYS re-emerge, regardless of loyalty, regardless of the size of your garrison. In fact keeping a large garrison is going to be worse for you once the Pope does come back, as his forces will be scaled to yours. That's why you need to cripple the faction and shunt it into the Papal States - if it's still alive it can't re-emerge

I had a confounding experience after I knocked out the Pope . . . .

I held all the provinces in Italy but the Papal States (which I razed to the ground and let go rebel).

I kept a peasant Garrison in Rome. No muss no fuss.

Then the bugger re-emerged, he had about six stacks of Cavalry in Rome and a small stack of UM in Papal States.

I was understandably upset.

[macsen rufus]

I was understandably upset.

Upset? I'd be to say the least

The way I usually go is:

a) wipe out the Papists once,
b) strip the Papal States down to its underwear (ie fort, 20% farms and nothing else - I have a personal rule to never destroy farms... you may have different in-game ethics ), enough garrison to keep it to 100-120% loyalty only,
c) keep an utterly TINY garrison in Rome - I've you've got a unit stripped down to a single man, he's the one If he's an unhinged loon or other variety of totally hateable so much the better, make him King of the Romans and leave him there on his own, with taxes cranked up to maximum and pull down the border fort/watchtowers,
d) station a decent sized, defensively oriented army in Tuscany, waiting for the inevitable rebellion.
e) if the rebellion comes as peasants just massacre them as per normal.
f) when the re-emergence happens, hopefully it should come in both provinces - ABANDON Papal States immediately, DEFEND Rome vigourously with the army you have stashed away in Tuscany. You MUST win this battle - expect it to be bloody and expensive - but it is an investment for the long run
g) after winning this battle, the Pope and his minions will be holed up in the Papal States and you still hold Rome, which is the prize after all, but a state of war will exist between you, and you're probably excommunicated. Live with it
h) attack the Papal States with everything you have, or just enough to do the job - your aim this time is not to eradicate the faction, just defeat them so they withdraw to the fort. This can only hold 200 men by the way, and with only 20% farms there the Pope cannot afford to train any more on the provincial income. You now have the Papacy under siege, with a tiny army, and NO NAVY. NOW is the time to withdraw from the Papal States and claim your free auto-ceasefire.
i) having lost two battles in a row, and hopefully earning some nasty cowardly vices along the way, the Pope should have lost at least two command stars - making him much easier to assassinate for that all-important lifting of ex-communication. If you enjoy irony, just send a grand inquisitor after him. He will eventually burn and your way is clear - if you have them handy, keep a high valour spy, assassin and GI on permanent duty here.
j) Voila! Pope on a rope

[I of the Storm]

I just had an opportunity to try it yesterday, and it worked! Now that's what I call a puppet pope...

Thanks again, macsen rufus!

[Brandy Blue]

Oddly enough, my experience is that if I attack the Pope's last province, he does not withdraw to his castle when defeated. Instead, he dies off, his faction disappears, and I have to deal with a reemergence when it comes. This happens every time. Is it because I fought the final battle with the pope by autocalc? Would he withdraw to his castle if I beat him in played out battle?

Anyway, I had to develop an alternative strategy. I pushed him into the papal states, left garrisons in the surrounding provinces strong enough to keep him trapped, and then wore down his forces by attacking each year with mounted missle troops. I withdrew so as not to beat him, but I inflicted as many casualties as cheaply as possible until I wore him down to about 100 troops. Easy to contain with small garisons.

[I of the Storm]

That's exactly what happened when I tried it first. I think I autobattled this one too. Then I had a mediocre reemergence in Rome and PS and the second time I tried to pull this off it worked. Although this time I fought almost all the battles myself. Come to think of it, I autobattled the last one in PS too but this time he simply retreated to the castle. It's probably randomly determined. Might also have something to do with strengths and troop quality.

[macsen rufus]

Would he withdraw to his castle if I beat him in played out battle?

You can make sure of it, just don't kill him

Getting him under siege is THE crux of this strategy, for unless you do that a state of war will continue, and along with it your excommunication. Also you're not trying to avoid a re-emergence anyway, as wiping him out then letting him re-emerge means he'll have no navy.