Traits and Ancillaries Brainstorming and Suggestions Thread

[Malrubius]

This thread is where you can suggest new traits and ancillaries for Europa Barbarorum, or changes to existing ones.

I recommend you check out the Traits and Ancillaries FAQ and the Europa Barbarorum website Traits page to get your creative juices flowing and see what we already have.

If you want to check if something is possible by delving deeper into the system, or do some coding yourself, check out the How to Mod your Traits/VnVs thread and the Events and Conditions thread.

Go ahead and let your imagination run wild, if you want. I can evaluate and see how possible they are, or if they can somehow work or fit in with the mod, later.

[Jebus]

IMHO, the 'Bored' trait needs revision.

I mean, I can image the dumb, strong guys - the 'ME SMASH YOU GOOOOD' types - feeling bored when they have to manage a city and *gasp* read stuff; but really, really don't see how a smart, vigorous fellow could ever be bored by being the governor of a city like, say, Rome. My guess is that there would be plenty - *plently* - he could occupy himself with without become a fat lazy boozehound. If anything, intelligent and enthousiastic people would be absolutely thrilled to be able to run a city like Rome (as all sane people would), and would most likely do their best to become better at their job.

Now, if I were to appointed to some shithole in the middle of the Sahara or on the Russian planes - THEN I'd start drinking. Perhaps the 'bored' trait should thus take into account the size of the city, the facilities available (e.g. if a vigourous, intelligent governour is in a city with an academy, he'd most likely spend more time there than a dumb, lazy governour would, and thus get better skills), the distance to capital and the trade income of the town.

Just a suggestion. There's not much logic behind the entire 'bored' thing now...

[econ21]

To be honest, I don't worry much about the ancillaries, especially in EB where the ones that give you command stars seem to have gone. However, the salient exception is the churigeon (sp?), which is very valuable - especially in EB, where you cannot retrain your army so easily while campaigning far afield. Incidentally, could you check what other ancillaries are incompatible with the churigeon? I have a very nice general but he is not worth taking to the field, as I can't give him a churigeon. I wonder if it is because he has a physician? If so, it's a poor trade, as the physician is pretty tame compared to the churigeon.

I really like the EB traits system, although my more successful generals seem to pick up the desert fighter one in the most unlikely locations (snowy Germanic woods etc).

[Dooz]

The desert warrior issue has been addressed and I believe will be fixed in the future builds.

[mediobogdum]

I can confirm that the Physician & Chirguron are mutually exclusive. Its not bad however because while Chirguron only helps battle casualties while the physician does battle casualties and something else that helps that specific general (I think its better chance of children or something).
-----------------------------------

Copied from EB Ancillary breakdown:

physician
Ancillary physician Image older_man_ancillary.tga ExcludedAncillaries doctor, herbalist, chirurgeon ExcludeCultures barbarian, eastern Description physician_desc
physician : Fertility 1, BattleSurgery 5


Ancillary chirurgeon Image older_man_ancillary.tga ExcludedAncillaries doctor, herbalist, physician ExcludeCultures barbarian Description chirurgeon_desc
chirurgeon : BattleSurgery 10


OK well I guess its not as good for a strict battling general because ch gives 10 battsurgery vs just 5 for the physician.

[Rilder]

Heres a suggestion for a couple traits...

Son of the King: Being son of the king makes you quite influential among the faction +2 infuence (only available to factions that have kings hehe)

Brother Of the King: Being Brother to the king is a great honor. +1 infuence
(only available to factions that have kings)

Maby one for the faction leader when the faction increases a certain number of provinces, like "Great Leader of His people": This man has made his Kingdom/Empire/etc?? Greatly stronger and will be remembered among his people for centuries to come +4(?) infuence

there that should be good as i cant think of anymore

[Malrubius]

IMHO, the 'Bored' trait needs revision.

[snip]

Just a suggestion. There's not much logic behind the entire 'bored' thing now...

It will have 2 levels in the next patch, the first one just as a signal. Your suggestion about the size of city having an effect is a good one. Currently someone with the Supervisor trait doesn't get bored from sitting in a city (though he might get unhappy if it's a small city).

I can confirm that the Physician & Chirguron are mutually exclusive.

Good to see someone using the html docs! In fact, if your general has acquired the Herbalist, Chirurgeon, Doctor, or Wise Woman, he can't get one of the other ones (although you could pass them on to someone else). The Wise Woman and Herbalist have the same abilities as the doctor.

Son of the King: Being son of the king makes you quite influential among the faction +2 infuence (only available to factions that have kings hehe)

Brother Of the King: Being Brother to the king is a great honor. +1 infuence
(only available to factions that have kings)

Son would be possible, but I don't think Brother would. In factions with dynasties, it would further boost the son's chances of being auto-selected by the AI the heir and future king. Especially good would be a "first-born" trait.

Maby one for the faction leader when the faction increases a certain number of provinces, like "Great Leader of His people": This man has made his Kingdom/Empire/etc?? Greatly stronger and will be remembered among his people for centuries to come +4(?) infuence

We have something like that for the Sweboz and some things like that for the Celtic factions. I'm working on one for the Getai now. Parthia really had something like that, that I need to implement. Who else should get something like that? Yuezhi? Sauromatae?

Good suggestions! Keep 'em coming!

[Dooz]

From my own knowledge, I would recommend Armenia having that last type of trait. Great ancient Armenian leaders are still remembered and revered to this day.

[Geoffrey S]

Something along the lines of "Claims to be descended from Megas Alexandros" for Hellenic generals could be good. It could range from claiming to be a distant relative, to claiming to be Alexander reborn or something similar.

[Malrubius]

Something along the lines of "Claims to be descended from Megas Alexandros" for Hellenic generals could be good. It could range from claiming to be a distant relative, to claiming to be Alexander reborn or something similar.

I think Teleklos even wrote the description for that one, somewhere in the Greatest Generals thread.

[Spitful]

Could you have a trait "Feared by the <factions people (romans, greeks etc>" if he has won several herioc victories against that people, he could have a morale bonus when he fought them

[Steppe Merc]

We have something like that for the Sweboz and some things like that for the Celtic factions. I'm working on one for the Getai now. Parthia really had something like that, that I need to implement. Who else should get something like that? Yuezhi? Sauromatae?

I thought the Parthians had the Shahrdar trait, saying that they're the king? Or are you talking about something else?

[Malrubius]

Wasn't there something else, like "king of kings"? Shahan Shah or something, that could be awarded once the faction leader has a certain number of provinces under his control, or certain ones?

Could you have a trait "Feared by the <factions people (romans, greeks etc>" if he has won several herioc victories against that people, he could have a morale bonus when he fought them

Not possible, only + to Command. The "Hates (culture)" trait does exactly the same thing, this would just have a different name.

[jebes]

I have a few ideas for new traits

What about a Trait that indicates the General is afraid of the water (Or has heard stories of sea monsters, I don't know if anybody really believed those things) and changes the movement speed of the fleet he is in.

If a general stays in a high altitude town for a few years, he becomes "acclimated to the mountains" and add something to his stamina. I don't know what the altitude of the towns in EB is, but I am sure some of them would have been significantly above sea level and moving from a city a mile up to one at sea level myself, I can say there is quite a difference.

Also, is there a way to count the number of times that a general has been ambushed? If so, he could become wary of traveling and move slower because he is more cautius and get an increase in sight because he sends out a lot of scouts.

If the general has been on a boat for too long, they could get scurvy or something and lower the health and morale of themselves and their men.

Ok, just some ideas of things that seem like they might be possible and add to the game.

[Malrubius]

I have a few ideas for new traits

What about a Trait that indicates the General is afraid of the water (Or has heard stories of sea monsters, I don't know if anybody really believed those things) and changes the movement speed of the fleet he is in.

If a general stays in a high altitude town for a few years, he becomes "acclimated to the mountains" and add something to his stamina. I don't know what the altitude of the towns in EB is, but I am sure some of them would have been significantly above sea level and moving from a city a mile up to one at sea level myself, I can say there is quite a difference.

Also, is there a way to count the number of times that a general has been ambushed? If so, he could become wary of traveling and move slower because he is more cautius and get an increase in sight because he sends out a lot of scouts.

If the general has been on a boat for too long, they could get scurvy or something and lower the health and morale of themselves and their men.

Ok, just some ideas of things that seem like they might be possible and add to the game.

All these are possible (I've been planning a seasick trait, but haven't got around to it), though I'd need someone to tell me which settlements are on the 'mile-high' list. I really like the "Wary of Ambushes" trait.

[Simetrical]

I wrote a Paranoid (or Overly Cautious or something) trait that basically did that, slowing movement but increasing sight range, for RTR 6.0. Too bad all my work was too buggy to make it into the release.

[Malrubius]

Heh, I know the feeling.

[paullus]

How about an addition to the forced march trait. Say a general has gotten the trait, and then force marches to attack an enemy and wins, say, a clear victory or something. What if he could get a "force march victor" trait or something, that could have more positive bonuses. Any chance that would work? It could reflect soldiers' trust in and willingness to make sacrifices for a great leader.

[jebes]

One thing I always thought was interesting in reading about faction leaders was the relationship that many young kings had with their mother. I think it would be interesting to have a king who was a "momma's boy" and would lose influence, command, and management because he was off acting in plays or what not. This could be a temporary trait while his mother is alive and either he becomes inconsolable when his mother dies and absolutely worthless, or he could come to his senses and recover or even execute her before she dies a natural death. (I am pretty sure the last on is impossible, but hey)

Another question I have is, it was quite common in the ancient world to kill all threats to the crown, especially family members, is that possible in EB. I realize it would suck and for game play reasons, might be a bad idea, but I still think that intrigue is intriguing.

Finally, along those lines, could there be an event where a leader catches wind of an attempted coup (real or fabricated by a jealous aide) and kills a large number of his support staff. That could lead to many temporary and permanent traits that would really make your king a pain to have around.

[Dayve]

Just skimming through the ideas and saw something about being wary of ambushes...

Would it be possible to make the wary of ambushes trait say something like "An army under the command of this man has been ambushed in the past and it has obviously affected him since he now refuses to even march through woodland" And you won't be able to march through woodland with the general... Obviously he would only get this trait if he is ambushed and loses the battle but i think it could be a good idea, if it were possible.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How about a trait where a general fights a lot of defensive battles or defensive sieges in his own lands. He could get.

"Defender of his people: This man has done much to safe-guard the lands and future of his people, they look to him in their hour of need. (+1 Command, +2 Influence."

Then you could have a more extreme one which is really hard to get. "Hope of his people" or something, with double bonuses.

[Spitful]

Could we have the opposite of "Wary of Ambushes", "Complacent about Ambushes" or even an Arminius ancillary. Makes the character move faster but decreases site range. You coudl ahve it if the character is ambushed and wins alot.

And could you give Roman generals in Rome a hidden trait which dissapears if they spend a turn outside of the city, it would give enourmous bonuses to his troops so they will stand to the last man and never rout when defending Rome? It would be pretty realistic

[Three63]

About the 'Bored' trait. This trait IMO is in excessive use. A majority of royal family members and other people of importance, did not need activity in warfare and civil governing to be happy and content. They had lives, people and activities they enjoyed. There was only a minority of them, who were meatheads or ambitious and think there being underrated, who became restless and bored. I suggest that the trait be effective on only a few individuals.

Also about drinking, severe problems with drinking only develop with people who are inclined to become alcoholics. So it does not matter if they become Bored, they will have a chance to gain this vice, either if there out in the front lines or sitting on there ass. But being bored should
improve that chance, not control it. Some people will never have a severe problem with drinking.

[Hildico]

Since some factions get their new generals through adoption, could children and siblings that don't show up on the family tree be represented by traits (or non transferable ancillaries: it always seemed strange to me that a drunken uncle could be passed on to someone else in vanilla)?
Suggestions would be things like protective older brothers giving a boost to security, lots of adult daughters giving influence through marriage, jealous brothers plotting lowering personal security, clever relatives aiding management, useless or sickly children reducing happiness because the succession isn't secure etc.
I think this sort of thing would help when imagining that the family tree only shows key characters and your generals aren't actually all infertile.

[Ragabash]

If it's possible to make two or more different kind of traits that would change from family member to another... These are mainly for Romans but could be easily modified to to another factions.

Favor by Senate and Favor by people... These traits could be only with one general (same general could have both). How you would get these would be based how much your general would do and how.

Favor by Senate - This trait could be gained by gaining heroic victories. Maybe including senate missions back, but this time instead of positions in senate or reward your generals who actually complete this missions would gain one or more traits. I think this could be really neat because this would not give too big advantage from senate and it would give certain color to the Roman campaign.

Favor by people - Your general could get it by killing enough popping rebels or doing some other actions, such as stopping sieges to your towns and such.

[Malrubius]

How about an addition to the forced march trait. Say a general has gotten the trait, and then force marches to attack an enemy and wins, say, a clear victory or something. What if he could get a "force march victor" trait or something, that could have more positive bonuses. Any chance that would work? It could reflect soldiers' trust in and willingness to make sacrifices for a great leader.

Since the PreBattle event doesn't work, I couldn't use this trait to give any bonuses right before the battle. However, I already have it where some generals can inspire their troops and spur them on when attacking, even though they're forced marching (gives a +1 to command when attacking).

One thing I always thought was interesting in reading about faction leaders was the relationship that many young kings had with their mother. I think it would be interesting to have a king who was a "momma's boy" and would lose influence, command, and management because he was off acting in plays or what not. This could be a temporary trait while his mother is alive and either he becomes inconsolable when his mother dies and absolutely worthless, or he could come to his senses and recover or even execute her before she dies a natural death. (I am pretty sure the last on is impossible, but hey)

Another question I have is, it was quite common in the ancient world to kill all threats to the crown, especially family members, is that possible in EB. I realize it would suck and for game play reasons, might be a bad idea, but I still think that intrigue is intriguing.

Finally, along those lines, could there be an event where a leader catches wind of an attempted coup (real or fabricated by a jealous aide) and kills a large number of his support staff. That could lead to many temporary and permanent traits that would really make your king a pain to have around.

We can't detect when a general's mother dies. It would have been good, though. I can't kill off generals, the best I can do is take away hitpoints or movement and make them useless. BTW, anybody notice anything happen to a general's son if the father dies in battle?

Now, your 3rd suggestion is possible. It would be a lot of triggers and somebody would need to write up some good descriptions. It would probably tie into the Paranoia trait somehow.

Just skimming through the ideas and saw something about being wary of ambushes...

Would it be possible to make the wary of ambushes trait say something like "An army under the command of this man has been ambushed in the past and it has obviously affected him since he now refuses to even march through woodland" And you won't be able to march through woodland with the general... Obviously he would only get this trait if he is ambushed and loses the battle but i think it could be a good idea, if it were possible.

Not something I can do with traits (or scripting), you have to be able to detect the terrain, and that's not possible. I guess it could be applied when InBarbarianLands, but I'm not even sure how RTW figures something is a barbarian land.

How about a trait where a general fights a lot of defensive battles or defensive sieges in his own lands. He could get.

"Defender of his people: This man has done much to safe-guard the lands and future of his people, they look to him in their hour of need. (+1 Command, +2 Influence."

Then you could have a more extreme one which is really hard to get. "Hope of his people" or something, with double bonuses.

This is possible, but we pretty much have the GoodDefender trait, that covers this.

Could we have the opposite of "Wary of Ambushes", "Complacent about Ambushes" or even an Arminius ancillary. Makes the character move faster but decreases site range. You coudl ahve it if the character is ambushed and wins alot.

And could you give Roman generals in Rome a hidden trait which dissapears if they spend a turn outside of the city, it would give enourmous bonuses to his troops so they will stand to the last man and never rout when defending Rome? It would be pretty realistic

The Arminius ancillary would be an interesting historical ancillary.

On the never routs thing, nobody really routs when defending a city. Once they get to the square, that's it. I don't know why it would only apply to Romans, anyway. Didn't Rome get sacked multiple times in history?

@Three63: Bored has undergone a big reworking for the patch. For the Drink trait, you have to get to level 3 before it has any negatives. That doesn't seem so severe.

Since some factions get their new generals through adoption, could children and siblings that don't show up on the family tree be represented by traits (or non transferable ancillaries: it always seemed strange to me that a drunken uncle could be passed on to someone else in vanilla)?
Suggestions would be things like protective older brothers giving a boost to security, lots of adult daughters giving influence through marriage, jealous brothers plotting lowering personal security, clever relatives aiding management, useless or sickly children reducing happiness because the succession isn't secure etc.
I think this sort of thing would help when imagining that the family tree only shows key characters and your generals aren't actually all infertile.

Very good suggestion! (no way we can make ancillaries non-transferable, though. I wish!) We could do it through traits, though.

If it's possible to make two or more different kind of traits that would change from family member to another... These are mainly for Romans but could be easily modified to to another factions.

Favor by Senate and Favor by people... These traits could be only with one general (same general could have both). How you would get these would be based how much your general would do and how.

Favor by Senate - This trait could be gained by gaining heroic victories. Maybe including senate missions back, but this time instead of positions in senate or reward your generals who actually complete this missions would gain one or more traits. I think this could be really neat because this would not give too big advantage from senate and it would give certain color to the Roman campaign.

Favor by people - Your general could get it by killing enough popping rebels or doing some other actions, such as stopping sieges to your towns and such.

We have historical triumphs, coronas, and political factions representing most of this already.


Thanks for all the suggestions, everybody! Keep 'em coming!

[paullus]

I had a couple of other ideas on the acquisition of wives. In the case of adoptions through marriage, is there a way to tie the quality of the wife to the qaulity of the father/patron?

And I suppose, since some factions have temples to fertility goddesses, a wife acquired in a city with those temples (dont at least some of the Greeks have Demeter? I could be wrong...) might have higher fertility.

You might could tie the acquisition of a wife to presence in a city that has, in addition to baths, things like athletic fields or theaters.

And I suppose traits like vigorous and charismatic are already tied to the quest for and quality of a wife?

And on an entirely different note(!), is there a way to sometimes give a character an ancillary that says "exiled __" where having that ancillary could give some sort of bonus toward the acquisition of a particular city, either eleutheroi or held by a faction. Maybe give troops higher morale attacking the city, or be the equivalent of one of those spy networks (which are very well done by the way), or lower the cost to bribe? I don't know if any of that is possible, but it would add a nice dimension to the game.

[jebes]

And I suppose, since some factions have temples to fertility goddesses, a wife acquired in a city with those temples (dont at least some of the Greeks have Demeter? I could be wrong...) might have higher fertility.

I don't know if this would be a good idea in regards to the historical accuracy that EB is striving for. They seem to have been doing a good job in only giving the actualy effects that a temple would bring, (mostly happiness) and leaving the supernatural by the way side. I don't think that all the ancient fertility rituals did all that much to increase fertility, people just hoped it might.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

You might not totally throw the idea away though. The power of suggestion and hope can do a lot - (i'm definitely not talking about miracles here, but just things like a placebo effect). We did drop away a lot of these type bonuses, but there might be a hint of this still in places where we thought some logical effect might result, even if it's subconscious.

[paullus]

Yeah, that's a good point, that is a bit overboard...though I have seen in the South how girls who grow up hearing about being good mommies with lots of babies end up having lots of babies, so yeah, not sure what to do with that...

On another totally different note, how about a trait for generals with wins against tremendous odds thats something like "accompanied by Herakles" and could say "troops say they see Herakles fighting alongside this general, and the rumors give his men greater confidence" with +1 morale. I know for certain that such a trait would have a good bit of historical accuracy (and may already be in the game...if so, my apologies).