Latest update on 1.2 patch from Sega/CA

[whodat]

Rather than tag this on the end of 38 pages, here is the latest official info from the .com forum:

SenseiTW Medieval II Update 2 - Latest News Lead [-]

Administrator/Administrator
Posts: 222
04/12/07 05:39:17
CA Staff
Tags : None
Hi guys,

We have had a chat with the development team at CA Oz and can now bring you an update regarding the status of Update 2. As previously discussed, there were issues highlighted by final testing that require further attention. The issues have been identified and the process to rectify them is underway at CA Oz. Rest assured that all resources are now being devoted to this as a matter of priority.

The main issue to be addressed is the intermittent passive AI that occurs during siege battles. While this certainly isn't something that occurs in every battle, it needs to be rectified before final release. There are also a number of minor issues that have also been highlighted and will be addressed.

Please accept our sincere apologies for not providing information on progress before now. Being on the other side of the world from our development studio meant that we couldn't bring you up to date on this as soon as we'd like. Based on the rather unfortunate turn of events last week, we feel it would be unwise to provide any further estimation of release dates for Update 2. However, we promise to keep you informed on progress throughout the process of getting this update to you.

Thanks for your ongoing patience. The team are obviously very busy on this, but I will keep pestering them for updates on your behalf!

Cheers,
Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

[Quickening]

Im very happy at their vow to fix the passive siege AI completely. Definately top priority.

[econ21]

Im very happy at their vow to fix the passive siege AI completely. Definately top priority.

I agree - I've experienced the bug only once (with the unofficial 1.2 patch, ironically). I sallied to avoid excommunication, but really was bringing in a massive relief army. The French besiegers just stood with their backs to my relief army as I shot them to death. They did send one or two archers to duel me. But otherwise the AI only reacted when I got tired and charged it from behind. It was very strange and definitely worth fixing.

[gardibolt]

Both encouraging and disappointing. Well, hopefully it'll be an excellent patch when it arrives.

[whodat]

Yep, I have to agree. I would MUCH rather CA fix the passive AI seige bug that popped up, along with the CTD issue that people have reported, than give us a bad patch.

From what I have seen from the unofficial patch so far, I love it. Agents that actually work, imagine that.

And kudos to CA/Sega for not stepping on their sword again with an announced release date. Take the time to get it right, then let us have it.

[Midnight]

"It'll be ready when it's working properly" is a sensible policy! Good to hear things are working this way now.

edit in response to Pode, below: I'm hoping that's how it'll be from now on, as well!

[Pode]

"It'll be ready when it's working properly" is a sensible policy! Good to hear things are working this way now.

INFINITELY better would be a policy of "It'll be RELEASED when it's working properly." I know, I know, foolish idealism on my part, but really, would it have killed Sega to push for a release THIS Christmas instead of last?

[diotavelli]

Based on the rather unfortunate turn of events last week, we feel it would be unwise to provide any further estimation of release dates for Update 2. However, we promise to keep you informed on progress throughout the process of getting this update to you.

Aah! A bit of common sense from CA, at last!

The deadline given for release of the patch always sounded as though it was driven by the marketing team to keep an impatient community happy, rather than by the guys building the damn thing.

Whilst I would love to have the update tomorrow, I'd rather have a properly working update in a few weeks' time. Letting the developers run the schedule means it will take longer but it should do what it's supposed to.....

[crpcarrot]

i just wish they had this attitude before they relased games and annouced relase dates. but i guess its the industry norm now

[Daveybaby]

Unfortunately most developers dont have the luxury of keeping working on a game until its perfect. I guess they could spend a year testing the game (which is probably how long it would take to find most of the bugs with a small team) but then CA would have probably gone bust by now if they'd taken that route so you wouldnt even have an M2TW to be bitching about, ever.

Alternatively you release a playable game on time with a few significant bugs (but not show stopping IMO - if the shield bug is a 'game killer' how come it took so long for people to even notice it) and a slew of minor ones, some of which you will possibly know about before shipping (release day patches are pretty much a given these days) and most of which you dont - but will find out about very soon because 1000's of people playing a game in lots of different ways than you envisaged is going to turn up LOTS of bugs you would never have thought to look for in a million years of testing.

So, which is it people?
Scenario 1 : CA goes bust because they arent selling any games because theyre not allowed to release them until theyre perfect. So no more TW games, ever.
Scenario 2 : CA release slightly buggy games and fix most of the bugs after a few months of patching.

Unless anyone can come up with another scenario, that is. Note: scenario must work in the real world, not a fantasy one where companies dont need money to stay in business.

Yes, i guess in a sense we're paying to be beta testers. If that makes you really really angry, i suggest you have a read of the newspapers once in a while and try to get a sense of perspective (to paraphrase Bill Hicks... albeit slightly more politely).

Rant over.

[Whacker]

So, which is it people?
Scenario 1 : CA goes bust because they arent selling any games because theyre not allowed to release them until theyre perfect. So no more TW games, ever.
Scenario 2 : CA release slightly buggy games and fix most of the bugs after a few months of patching.

The 2nd option is considered standard practice right now, for better or worse. The problem is the current game we have is in terrible shape, hell it makes even Bethesda look like a good software publisher. The shield bug, unit cohesion nonsense, bad pathing, and passive AI are all very serious, game breaking bugs. "Game breaking" doesn't mean CTD, it also means making gameplay thoroughly aggravating, unenjoyable, and a crap shot at best. Of course, one can never expect the Official CA Apologist Crew© or the hardcore fanboys to understand this.

Unless anyone can come up with another scenario, that is. Note: scenario must work in the real world, not a fantasy one where companies dont need money to stay in business.

Yes, i guess in a sense we're paying to be beta testers. If that makes you really really angry, i suggest you have a read of the newspapers once in a while and try to get a sense of perspective (to paraphrase Bill Hicks... albeit slightly more politely).

Oh please. There's a very fine black and white line between being a paying to be on an official beta and being forced into being what amounts to be a beta tester by the publisher. Seeing how this game was never announced or marketed as a "Open Beta" it becomes pretty obvious which category this is. Had I known this was where the game was going to be 4 full months after it's release I would not have dropped my hard earned cash on it. Oh well, we all know how the saying goes. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." This was the last title I buy from CA at launch, if at all.

[fenir]

Hmmmm after some thought, i would have to agree. CA needs to make the game in UK. For reasons we won't get into.


AUSSIE BASHING......woot.... some one has to.

In New Zealand Lamb price is about $7.00 a kilogram, when the wallabies come to play the all blacks, it goes up to $35.00 an hour.

Whats an Aussie with a BMW....a Lebo.

Whats an Aussie with a Mercedes......a really good theif.


Come sapi.....put them dukes up




fenir

[Puzz3D]

A patch requiring this much effort can't be a good approach to developing a computer program. It gets to a point where doing it right in the first place is a more efficient process. Troubleshooting a bug can take more time than the time it would have taken to write working code in the first place. I thought the RTW v1.2 patch, which took 3 months and almost half of the whole development team and addressed over 100 problems, went beyond this point, and now the M2TW v1.2 appears to be an even bigger effort. It's not good business, and the company's credibility as a capable developer suffers.

[Odin]

Unfortunately most developers dont have the luxury of keeping working on a game until its perfect. I guess they could spend a year testing the game (which is probably how long it would take to find most of the bugs with a small team) but then CA would have probably gone bust by now if they'd taken that route so you wouldnt even have an M2TW to be bitching about, ever.

Alternatively you release a playable game on time with a few significant bugs (but not show stopping IMO - if the shield bug is a 'game killer' how come it took so long for people to even notice it) and a slew of minor ones, some of which you will possibly know about before shipping (release day patches are pretty much a given these days) and most of which you dont - but will find out about very soon because 1000's of people playing a game in lots of different ways than you envisaged is going to turn up LOTS of bugs you would never have thought to look for in a million years of testing.

So, which is it people?
Scenario 1 : CA goes bust because they arent selling any games because theyre not allowed to release them until theyre perfect. So no more TW games, ever.
Scenario 2 : CA release slightly buggy games and fix most of the bugs after a few months of patching.

Unless anyone can come up with another scenario, that is. Note: scenario must work in the real world, not a fantasy one where companies dont need money to stay in business.

Yes, i guess in a sense we're paying to be beta testers. If that makes you really really angry, i suggest you have a read of the newspapers once in a while and try to get a sense of perspective (to paraphrase Bill Hicks... albeit slightly more politely).

Rant over.

Fair enough, very well presented. since i have been an advocate of the other side of the argument I feel it fair to acknowledge your position. You make sound arguments and decent rationals based on common sense, logic, and the reality of the industry.

Perspective though is a funny concept and one that shouldnt be suggested lightly. As a consumer you pay for a product and you have a certain expectation of what you are buying. If it dosent meet with your expectations and you continue to buy it, the process continues on because you are enableing it to do so.

I dont suppose to know how companies can make "perfect games" I do know that games are produced in the state they are now mainly because the public buys them as is.

Not only that but we have vibrant modding commuties and forums where users post links to user made fixes to the game almost like a badge of honor. And on top of that we have a leaked 1.2 patch that had (by thier own admission) more bugs that caused the game to crash(which were discovered at the last hour before release, assuming we give them the maximum benefit of the doubt).

And whats the general concensus on the 1.2 situation? I have read a lot of data on this board and others and for the most part everyone is happy to have the files leaked to work on, happy that CA has pulled it back until fixed, and content to wait until it is ready to go (thats the majority opinion thus far).

And that my friend is the problem. An entire culture has been born, and is flourishing around games that are produced incomplete at the start. Maybe my point of view is a little off center, but I have yet to come across another industry that produces a product where a culture thrives on its inperfections, in almost glee.

It as if they are doing us some great service by correcting issues with thier product, and not only that should someone suggest that they should have had it done prior, it becomes

CA would have probably gone bust by now if they'd taken that route so you wouldnt even have an M2TW to be bitching about, ever.

.

Maybe my expectations are to high, but really why should I expect more from them, we have an army of willing consumers happy to support the current norm.

[Quickening]

Meh, the game shouldn't have been released in the state it was and we shouldn't still be putting up with the game in this state.

But it doesn't matter what we say or think at all and it wouldn't matter if a handful of us voted with our wallet. Mainly because when the next Total War game comes out the magazines will review it and say "OMFG best game EVA!!!!!!!!!!! *masturbates*" and then a million people will read that and buy the game unaware that it is buggy as hell.
So they've got their money and a few dissenting fans who actually know and care about the bugs won't make any difference. Sad but true.

[Barry Fitzgerald]

It has to be said the length of time that this patch has taken..and its vast size surely indicates how poor the original code really is.

In a way I feel sorry for CA..since release the game has come under heavy fire for snazzy looks..and not a lot of time spent on the real meat..aka getting the AI, and game working correctly. Things went from bad to worse with further delays..and well withdrawn patch 1.2,

There is nothing new to all this...its a sad fact of life that companies release unfinished games a lot more nowadays..CA are not alone in this. Some more than others..but shockingly some games dont have a lot of issues.

I really hope CA can recover from all this..the damage done to their reputation has been vast. It would be a shame to suffer for this in the long run. I know many players will now be much more sceptical about buying a CA game in the future..lessons will have to be learnt here..and big ones.

If you do a job for someone..whatever that is...paint a house..fix a car..make a cabinet...you should do the best job you can. Quality counts for more than quantity. Do a bodge job and you do yourself no favours at all. Your rep suffers..and cowboys land you get marked with.

Software whilst not that extreme is the same. Nobody expects perfection. But we really deserve better than this.

I hope CA can take all this in and put extra effort into ensuring that future releases are at least acceptable in quality. Maybe part of the problem is lack of competition....that would help to give them a wake up call.

[diotavelli]

I think that there is a lack of true perspective from many of CA's critics right now. Ten or fifteen years ago (pre-WWW), there were no forums for discussions of the relative merits of computer games other than magazines and groups of friends. If game was released with a "killer bug", the general gaming community would know about it but minor bugs didn't tend to get much air. Games that were imperfect tended to be generally recognised as such but it wasn't considered too big a deal if they were still enjoyable.

Online forums have changed all this. The Guild is a perfect example. There may be a few hardcore modders who would have found all the bugs in M2TW even were they operating in splendid isolation but their number would have been small. The vast majority of us would have played the game, enjoyed it or not and become fans or not on that basis.

The lists of bugs and the regular threads of outraged indignation merely serve to heighten awareness of problems with the game out of all proportion to the true situation. Purists who think that a game is unplayable if it doesn't work exactly as planned may hate M2TW but a lot of people aren't bothered.

Do you know how many copies of M2TW have been shifted? And do you know how many of those with a copy frequent these boards? This forum lists 19,560 members, not all of whom will be current and not all of whom will own the game. Far more than 20,000 people own this game. The vast majority of them will play it unaware of any problems. They may notice that some things don't happen as they expect or that some units behave/perform unexpectedly but they'll live with it or bin the game. No big deal.

The idea that CA's reputation is damaged to a "vast" extent is laughable. That may be the case with the hardcore who really know their stuff, buy loads of games each year and spends ten of hours playing each week but with the average punter (2-3 games a year, average of 5 or so hours played each week), it's not. Average punters seriously outnumber the hardcore but they pay just as much per unit.

I'm not a CA "apologist" or "fanboy" but I do work in IT. I know that CA are working in conjunction with SEGA. I know that SEGA are hugely successful, not because they appeal to the hardcore community but because they sell products in their millions to the mainstream "leisure" market.

CA will be feeling bad that the original game was as bugged as it has turned out to be but, like most of us, it probably took them a while to realise the true extent. They will wish they'd got the patches out sooner but they'll know they have a certain level of resource and a finite capacity.

The game works. Not perfectly but it works. If it doesn't work well enough for you, let it go. Find other things to do with your time. For most of us, a delay to the patch of one week or one month is a little frustrating but really no big deal.

We're talking about a computer game here. A fun but trivial bit of kit designed to help you waste a few hours of downtime. It's not like someone sold you a car with faulty brakes or an life insurance policy that didn't cover you properly. If that were the case, some of the rants I've read recently would be justified.

As it is, withdraw your hard-earned cash from CA's future sales pipeline, if you like. Boycott SEGA. Write letters to your MP, Senator or village elder. Rant furiously to the likeminded about how the whole world's gone to hell in a handcart because shields in M2TW are bugged and the pathfinding doesn't always work.

But please realise that employees of CA probably don't care as much as you do. Sure, they prefer to have happy campers in consumerville but, for the most part, they do. Some people are pissed off but they're few in number. Confronted by all the real issues of daily life (relationships, illness, stress, etc.), passive AI may not seem such a big deal.

[Agent Smith]

Being on the other side of the world from our development studio meant that we couldn't bring you up to date on this as soon as we'd like.

Not to be nitpicky, but why is this even an issue anymore in today's day and age?

[Lusted]

Not to be nitpicky, but why is this even an issue anymore in today's day and age?

Because it's easier to talk about something over the phone when your both in the respective offices, instead of by email.

[redriver]

I thought the real issue was the 1.1 conflict.. the passive AI was supposed to be fixed with last patch and didn't postpone it from bein' pushed out to the public?

[Kryptonitus]

I for one am glad that the passive AI will be fixed. I can be patient.

[Atalus]

I am fine with the m letting us know about when patches are coming out but with all the bugs we have had to deal with why don't they stop releasing half baked games so we don't have to deal with this all the time.

(This notice also should goto NWN2, Oblivion, and Railroads!)

[Rhedd]

Because it's easier to talk about something over the phone when your both in the respective offices, instead of by email.

Email?? Yeah, I'd say that's inefficient. That's why nobody I know uses it to do business.

I'm an off-site game developer, and we work over IM. Waiting for email replies would be insane.

I'm perfectly happy playing the unofficial patch while waiting the eternal wait, but Smith's confusion is valid.

[Agent Smith]

Email?? Yeah, I'd say that's inefficient. That's why nobody I know uses it to do business.

I'm an off-site game developer, and we work over IM. Waiting for email replies would be insane.

I'm perfectly happy playing the unofficial patch while waiting the eternal wait, but Smith's confusion is valid.

Ditto.

I currently am doing intern work for a coal sales company that does millions of dollars in business every month. I work in PA, and there main office is in VA, and the salesmen are all over the country. We have no problem communicating with them, either through phone, email, IM, conference call, etc. I fail to see how distance is any excuse for delays in business today.

But, all of that aside, I love the game and I don't care if I have to wait for the patch. I just thought it was kind of silly to partially blame a delay on office distance.

[Carl]

Because their in diffrent Time zones, about the time where getting up, they're going to bed, they simply aren't in the offices at eithier end at the same for much of the day so they have to rely on e-mail for everything, and considering the complexity of the issues their dealing with it would be murder to try to do everything by e-mail. SO they're very limited in time wise.

[Eng]

I think the problem was that they said it'll come so soon and in the end came quite a while after.... I belive its better to say that it will come in a lot of time and bring it before tje deadline instead of telling it will come fast and bringing it after.

[Gorm]

Not to be nitpicky, but why is this even an issue anymore in today's day and age?

There is a tremendous time difference between Australia and the US or England. When it is 7am in Sydney on a Monday, its 10pm in London on Sunday, 5pm in New York on Sunday.

I used to live in New Zealand (having been raised in the US) and always had problems if I wanted to phone someone in the US right away. Email sometimes just doesn't cut it.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Thanks for your ongoing patience.

I think someone doesn't quite grasp the situation.

[Andres]

I for one have learned my lesson now.

Next time, I'll just wait for the box with patched original and expansion(s) all in one for less the amount you have to pay for the bugged original at its' release.

No more "special edition" for me.

[Midnight]

Same here - while it looks as if the 'when it's ready' attitude of things right now is a good one, I'll be getting my next CA games from the bargain bin.