Imperial Diet

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: I side with Manfred in opposing the use of assassins as unchivalrous. I fear that if we begin to use such cut throats, the reputation of our kingdom will suffer and my father's chivalry will be undermined as he is viewed with dread.

[Ignoramus]

Sigismund der Furchtlose jumps up and hurridly addresses the Diet.

Mein electors, would we stoop so low as to murder our enemies? Why would we do so when we can kill them in a fair fight. I will have any part in this dishonour.

Sigismund resumes his seat.

[OverKnight]

There are enemies to the Reich that we cannot face in honorable battle, Count Sigismund. Potentially hostile agents such as spies, diplomats, merchants, assassins and, lest we forget, Inquisitors can harm us.

The Prinz's encounter with the last has already prompted this Diet to pass:

Charter Amendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed.

I believe this was proposed by the Prinz himself. I too would rather destroy our enemies on the field of battle, but sometimes our only option is a knife in the dark. The Diet must not turn away from subjects it deems distasteful if they are necessary for the defense of the Reich.

I second edict 5.8.

Edit: I also second edict 5.17

My lords.

[Ignoramus]

Sigismund der Furchtlose rises to his feet and address the assembled Diet.

Mein electors, I will now give mein humble opinion on the proposed edicts.

Edict 5.1: I agree. The English and Russians may be able to assist us in our wars.

Edict 5.2: I disagree with this motion. While I was Chancellor, I was unable to quash numerous rebellions due to the lack of vetern soldiers in the heart of the Reich. We cannot allow these rebellions to go unpunished.

Edict 5.3: I heartily agree with this edict. Those rebellious knaves and villeins have been a thorn in the Reich's side for too long. Delendo est Mediolanium!

Edict 5.4: I cannot accept this. Venice also controls Durazzo, and I cannot see why expanding into Greece is in the Reich's best interests.

Edict 5.5: This is unachieveable and I would not burden our Chancellor with an impossible task.

Edict 5.7: Though I am a pious man, I cannot agree to spending more on the Church while the Reich is in danger.

Edict 5.8: I abhor assassination in general and I would prefer that we used generals rathers than lowly scoundrels to do our work for us.

Edict 5.9: I agree, although I urge caution. We are not prepared for a large offensive against the Poles. Perhaps we should take Magdeburg and then reconsider the situation?

Edict 5.10: This is a commendable edict. The Hungarians could prove a bother to Venetians, while keeping on their good side also protects Vienna.

Edict 5.11: In light of private discussions with mein Duke, Prinz Henry, I have decided to withdraw this edict.

Edict 5.12: Although I chafe at being defensive, I agree with Prinz Henry that caution is the wiser policy here. We cannot attack everywhere at once.

Edict 5.13: I agree wholeheartedly. we cannot allow large bodies of enemy soldiers loot and pillage our provinces.

Edict 5.14: Although a good suggestion, I doubt we can send a diplomat to Scotland this term. Perhaps it could be achieved in another term?

Edict 5.15: This is folly! Would we acknowledge these rebels? That would only lead to futher rebellion.

Edict 5.16: I reluctantly agree to this ecdict. However, I would not see innocent diplomants murdered, only enemy leaders.

Edict 5.17: While I agree to a war against His Holiness, murdering him would bring the shame and horror of all Europe upon our heads.

Edict 5.18: I disagree. I do not think that Dukes and Counts ought to be told how to develop their lands.

Edict 5.19: I disagree here. We need diplomats constantly, being at the crossroads of Europe.

Edict 5.20: I agree and second this proposal. The Reich must rule the waters as well as the land.

Edict 5.21: Why ought we waste our wealth on those who are not our friends?

Edict 5.22: I disagree. There is not point being friends with the Fatimids

Edict 5.23: It is a worrth proposal. I shall decide my opinion in due course.

Edict 5.24: This is ridiculous! Would you have us bow to the every whim of Rome?

Edict 5.25: I agree, but I am worried about the state of defence of Vienna.

Edict 5.26: I disagree. Otto von Kassel is quite capable of storming Venice. Considering he is at the lagoons already, it is but a waste of time sendind for Leopold.

Edict 5.27: This is a good proposal. I support it.

Edict 5.28: I disagree. Vienna must not be favoured over other cities.

Edict 5.29: I disagree. This is exactly the same as Edict 5.21.

Charter Ammendment 5.1: I agree. This shall give the Duke's their due rights.

Charter Ammendment 5.2: At last I can have peace during Diet discussions. I most heartily agree.

Sigismund gulps down some beer as he sits down exhausted.

[econ21]

Prinz Henri: So as to keep Sunday a day of rest, I will close the Diet this evening at 7pm UK time. There will then be a 48 hour period of voting.

I am seconding the Charter Amendment 5.3 proposed by Maximillan von Mandorf:

Charter Amendment 5.3: This Amendment revises several Game Rules to keep them updated and prevent future confusions. The following Rules are revised as listed.

All lines with strikethroughs will be permanently removed.

Rule 2.4 is revised to state: 2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

Rule 3.7 is revised to state: 3.7 Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

Rule 5.2 is revised to state: The Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. If the Emperor chooses to do so, no Elector can run against him. The Emperor can only exercise his right of un-opposed election during the first Chancellorship term that begins immediately after his coronation. The Emperor may run in future elections, but must compete in them as normal.

Rule 6.4 will have the following words deleted from it “get a permanent +1 influence and”

Rule 6.6 is revised to state: 6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.

The above amendment requires one additional seconder.

[Ituralde]

With voting commencing soon I would second Charter Amendment 5.3 also, but I believe there are still some misconceptions about its content (OOC: see my post in the OOC-thread). Also before I settle let me give you my views to Chancellor's Sigismund comments especially on the Edicts proposed by me.

I fear I may have been misunderstood regarding the motivation behind Edict 5.26. I agree that Otto von Kassel is the better candidate for this task, I only feared that if his mission got delayed due to the Milanese activities near Florence, a backup plan would be in order as now is the time to strike at Venice! Now when they're weakende we have to make our move!
I ask all Electors to support all Edicts enforcing a quick and decisive blow against those traitors, including Edict 5.4 ,5.25, and 5.26!

Also Edict 5.28 is not intended to favour Vienna over any other cities, but instead aims at the fact that like previous Chancellor Sigismund I fear for the defence of the Austrian capital. We need a capable general that leads our forces against Venice, but at the same time we can not leave Vienna unprotected. The House of Austria can neither claim as many generals as other Houses, nor does it have the comfort of owning provinces in our heartland, where a low garrison could be tolerated. If we disregard Vienna this would give the Hungarians an incentive to attacking us. This would not only open another war front but also cost the Reich her most prosperous city and more importantly it would cost me my capital!

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Duke Leopold makes a valid point about Charter Amendment 5.3. I will reword the revision of Rule 5.2 as follows:

Rule 5.2 is revised to state: Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

[Ituralde]

I fully support and second Charter Amendment 5.3!

[OverKnight]

Though the hour is late, there is one matter I feel must be considered before the Diet. I propose edict 5.30: As a demonstration of the price of betrayal and to send a message to all of Europe that the Reich will not be defied, when the city of Venice is taken the populace will be exterminated.

My years in Milan have taught me how difficult a restive population is to keep under control. When Venice is taken we must establish the rule of the Reich with such authority that the city will never dare rebel. This will also allow us to garrison the city with less troops, so that a large part of the assaulting army can continue on campaign.

The curs deserve no mercy, and we will give them none.

I will also second edict 5.26.

[Ituralde]

Edict 5.30 is seconded! I believe you know what is necessary to deal with traitors Otto von Kassel! The Venetians deserve nothing less.

[FactionHeir]

*nods to von Kassel* I shall second 5.30 for you.

[econ21]

[Prinz Henry]: The 5th Session of the Diet is now closed. Voting will open imminently.

[FactionHeir]

-grmbl wrong thread. delete please-

[lilirishman1986]

death to the Venetians is all well and good but consider the need for income from these cities at the same time... death should only be considered if our Venetian slaves fail us

[OverKnight]

Fourth Elector, I realize the severe punishment we will inflict on Venice might impact the money we will get from the city, but there are considerations besides florins. The Venetians betrayed our alliance, attempted to assault Vienna multiple times, and briefly took Bologna from us. Such insolent oath-breaking deserves a heavy reprisal. I can think of no better way to show the Doge this, than by laying waste to his capital, the foul lair of these vipers.

This will also serve notice to our enemies, those thinking of attacking us, such as France, and even neutral or allied countries, that war with the Reich will only result in death and ruin for them.

The more practical aspects of edict 5.30 are that, once occupied, we will need less troops to garrison Venice, freeing up forces to assist against the Milanese outside Florence, or continuing the assault on the Doge's forces in Zagreb or Ragusa. With the Ducal armies amendment likely to pass, campaign troops will be at a premium while the household armies are being formed.

Yes, the loss of population will effect the economy of Venice, however the buildings and facilities that fuel it will be intact. Good German settlers will replace the vanquished and the city will be prosperous again in a short time.

I consider a short term loss of Florins in exchange for long term stability, strategic flexibility and a resounding message of the superiority of the Reich, a more than fair trade.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: Extermination of a city is an act of barbarism that should never be countenanced. To recommend it as a form of crowd control is a particularly heinous argument - next we will be arguing that we should kill our old or sick because they take too much food.

Electors - the common people of Venice cannot be blamed for the villainy of their leaders! The men who decided to break their oathe will all be gone from the city by the time we enter - the only ones left will be the ordinary, powerless, people who lack the means to flee our advance, just as they lacked the means to control their craven rulers.

Aside from being an atrocity in itself, extermination will undermine the reputation of our Empire and stain my father's character as a chivalric ruler. To target Venice for this punishment is particularly foolish, given the large income its citizens can obtain from seaborne trade.

I plead with you, are we not a Christian nation? Have we learned nothing from the first coming of our Lord? If by His grace, we obtain stewardship of Venice, we must rule according to His laws or risk His wrath by defying them! To deliberately and cold-bloodedly massacre thousands of Christian men, women and children will be a terrible stain on our character and conscience. All men of piety must reject this monstrous proposal!

[OverKnight]

The Venetians have been excommunicated, Prinz Henry, and so are outside the protection of the Church. They are oath-breakers and must be broken themselves.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

I apologize for my Latin, it is rusty, the translation is "Kill them all. God will know His own".

[TinCow]

No Christian babe is ever outside the protection of God, even if his Lord has been excommunicated. Extermination of innocent Christian women and children is a crime against the Heavens themselves. If you wish to kill the unarmed, perhaps you should take up the Cross and march eastwards. There are many heathens there that you can put to the sword without incurring the wrath of God.

[lilirishman1986]

I retract my statement condemning the elimination of excess population within Venice. We will indeed save money via the elimination of a larger garrison. In regards to the death of innocents that Mandorf says are protected by god i say "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet", Kill them all. God will recognize his own.

[nazgul3]

We should show no mercy to those heathens. They are outside of Gods favor for a reason and should be taught a lesson.

[Stuperman]

I whole heartedly support making an example of The City of Vencie, It should serve as an example for the rest of europe of what happens if you double cross the HRE. It will also make the garrison work that mush esaier.

[Bizzair]

OOC:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sorry haven't been on in a while.

But I will be off for a good 2-3 months, it may cause me to leave the game for good,

becuase... drum roll!

My girlfriend is pregneant!! :)

and weve just announced to our family we have gotten engaged :)

Thanks all for the game, It was enjoyable, maybe I shall reutrn soon, and I will stop by to let everyone know how he/she is doing :)

See you all soon,

[Warluster]

OOC:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Congrats Bizzair! I wish you luck with your upcoming new family!

[OverKnight]

Otto reviews some election returns set before him by a clerk. His right hand reaches up to rub his right temple, but glancing up and looking around, he lowers it. Putting the returns down he stands to speak.

It seems the leading men of the Reich have voted against edict 5.30. With their influence, it will most likely not pass. Such is the decision of this body, and I will respect it.

I apologize if my proposal has caused consternation among the Diet. This was not my intent. I merely wished to clarify our war aims and address our current shortage of troops, while sending a message to our enemies. I am not a mindless butcher, there are reasons for what I proposed.

I must make clear, that if I am assigned the assault on Venice, I will respect the will of the Diet in this matter. The decision has been made and I will follow it. To do any less would be disloyal and craven.

My lords.

Otto sits and continues to go through the returns.

[Bizzair]

OOC:

Opps sorry, I meant to click the OOC Thread! Sorry boys! anyway feel free to delete it, I will see you all soon.

[econ21]

A balding scribe picks up the record of the Diet proceedings. He struggles with its weight, shrugs his head and calls out for a new record book.