Time Travelers Timewarp [Concluded]

[Captain Blackadder]

Time Travelers Timewarp
https://img831.imageshack.us/img831/4319/clockgm.jpg (https://img831.imageshack.us/i/clockgm.jpg/)





As the clock struck 13 in the Temporal Institute of Menological Equilibrium or T.I.M.E the police in charge of the space time continuum were very concerned. For over the last few weeks many time travellers had gone back and forward in the time stream causing untold damage to the very nature of time. As the very core of the Temporal Institute of Menological Equilibrium, the Giant Hourglass of Time began to crumble the T.I.M.E decide on a drastic course of action. The head of T.I.M.E nodded to his underling to insert the fail-safe device for the restoration of time. The underling lent forward and entered the code Flux Capacitor with that a sudden burst of light entered the T.I.M.E buildings and all sorts of people began appearing one after another into the room, these were the Time Travellers of the world and time. For you see the fail-safe was only a temporary fix to the space time continuum in order for the fix to be made permanent all records of Time Travel and by consequence Time Travellers needed to be eliminated. The jump into T.I.M.E had drained much of the power of the individual Time Travellers devices and anyway being in the very centre of T.I.M.E caused problems anyway. The Time Travellers quickly realised they could only jump back to the time they had arrived at the Temporal Institute of Menological Equilibrium. The head of the Temporal Institute of Menological Equilibrium rose and began to speak.

"Time Travelers you have all being found guilty of the destruction of the space time continuum the penalty for such an act is death. Give up now and it shall be a quick death if you struggle it shall be much more painful for you."

The Time Travellers being all people of great scientific minds felt that they could figure out a way to get out of the time field most likely by killing the Time Police standing in their ways. The Time Police for their part relished the idea of using all their knowledge to out wit the arrogant time travellers. The game of Time was about to begin.



Gameplay

This is going to be a fairly standard kind of set up for a game with one major exception. Every single character will have the ability to go back to either a night or a day phase at any time in the game and change their action on that day or night. Thus being dead in this game is a purely temporary thing and you never know when you might come back.

Looking for 17 people

For now simply say what Time Travellers you would like to see in the game I already have a few in mind but it would be good to have a greater variety so if there are any you want in please name them.

Rules

When you die the game is not over for you. Since at any point you might come back in the game you must continue to send in votes and night actions the same as anyone else if you are resurrected these actions will go into force straight away.

All the standard rules apply not screenshotting

Vote No lynch is acceptable.

Sign Ups
17/17
Montmorency
Visorslash
CountArach
Lewwyn
Daveshack
Chaotix
Atheothos
Yaropolk
Arjos
Reidquat
Salmonsoil
Ishmael
LazyMcCrow
Edse
Tuuvi
Greyblades
Khann

[Montmorency]

Let's do the Time Warp again.

[Visor]

Saw this idea before, it intrigued me. Sign me up, because you will need players.

[CountArach]

Can I have a Delore-in?

This is going to be my first game in probably a year and a half. Be gentle guys.

[Lewwyn]

in then.

[DaveShack]

I am caught in this game's vortex.

[Chaotix]

Interesting concept, can't miss it.

(But if I do, I can of course just go back in time to find it again.)

[atheotes]

sounds INteresting!

[Yaropolk]

Count me in. Some possible time travellers - Leonardo DaVinci, Jules Verne

[Arjos]

In and I'd like to see Nikola Tesla ^^

[Riedquat]

IN! Please!

[SalmonSoil]

Very interesting. In

[Ishmael]

In please, and how has Albert Einstein not been mentioned? I haven't actually played the Red Alert games, but I still know about that. :beam:

[LazyMcCrow]

Sounds like this is going to make me dizzy. Dizzy Gillespie?

In. :2thumbsup:

[edse]

In as well.

[Captain Blackadder]

It shouldn't be that confusing I hope if anything the confusion will happen on my end. Basically when a person going back in time changes an outcome you will simply appear or disappear in the next write up.

[Yaropolk]

In please, and how has Albert Einstein not been mentioned? I haven't actually played the Red Alert games, but I still know about that. :beam:

Ah yes, Command and Conquer: Red Alert. Clearly Albert Einstein's greatest achievement. Shouldn't remember him for anything else!

[Tuuvi]

I'm in.

[Captain Blackadder]

Only two more needed to sign up. I can run the game with 15 easily so I will begin to get cracking on the role pm's

[Greyblades]

In.

[seireikhaan]

Hmm. Color me curious.

:charge:

[Ishmael]

I have a question about mechanics - if you go back in time and cause a person's death, will that change only the person directly affected by your actions, or also people affected by their victim's actions and so on? For example, say Player A kills Player B early in the game, and later Player C changes their vote one day phase so that Player A was lynched before this happens. Would the result be that both Players A and B are dead, or that Player A is dead and Player B is now alive? If the latter, I imagine it could be confusing with long chains, but I might be over-thinking things (I wonder if it's possible to create a logical loop? *fetches pen and paper*)

EDIT:
Ah yes, Command and Conquer: Red Alert. Clearly Albert Einstein's greatest achievement. Shouldn't remember him for anything else!

Oh yes, he made some famous theory or something, with light and stuff. I know that because that's what he used to go back in time in the Red Alert games. :clown:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Reserve me in case someone drops out or cannot fulfill their temporal duties.

Consider me a temporal temp.

[Captain Blackadder]

It will affect the chains of people as well. There will be no alignment reveals obviously. I wanted this to be a game where a comeback is possible at any stage at the game even when you think it is all done and won you could still lose.

[Captain Blackadder]

Role PM completed sending out now.

A few Notes

To make things somewhat simpler for me my version of time travel will be that whilst you are in the past time keeps on moving in the present. Thus if you choose to go back in time during a night phase you can not do any other action that night.

Time Paradox. If a time paradox occurs which I don't think it will both parties involved will be killed by T.I.M.E since their powers extend to ensuring no paradox's may occur.

Finally the time machines will also prevent multiple time travel versions of yourself from being in the same spot. Like A Sound of Thunder. Thus you can only go to a given day or Night Once.

If anyone has any questions about the Time Travel Mechanic ask away I will give as much away as I can.

[Montmorency]

Gentlemen, I must express my sincere belief that our extinction at this stage would be in the best interest of All Things.

For our actions have in fact arrived at the worst conclusions imaginable. We bear this responsibility, though not having foreseen the folly.

[Visor]

Vote: Montmorency

:stare:

[Montmorency]

Vote: Visor

Believe it.

[Visor]

I'll TARDIS your ass back to the Stone Age.

[Montmorency]

Very well.

Unvote;

https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/ninja4ao5.jpg

[Visor]

Alright then how would the sun of Earth do for you then?

[Montmorency]

Come again?

[Chaotix]

Vote: CountArach

Welcome back.

[Arjos]

Vote: Greyblades

Because he's a Lannister :P

[Greyblades]

Vote: Arjos

Bite me, Martell. :P

[Yaropolk]

Vote greyblades - because he's above me.

[Ishmael]

I'm going to lay out a preliminary notion that might help the town, so that you guys can all poke holes in it :beam:. If we keep the voting close (as in, either one vote in it or a tie), then at a later point somebody can go back and change their vote, and thus lynch the other person. If one or more people mysteriously come back to life as a result of this, then we know we've caught a mafioso. If the original lynch was a mafioso, then they still weren't killing between their lynch and resurrection, so the town still comes out ahead. And if the mafia tries to interfere with this somehow, they'll either show their hand or waste their time-travel, which is a net win for the town. So, what have I overlooked?

As a result of the above, vote: Arjos (also because we never got to invade you like we planned :D)

[Montmorency]

If one or more people mysteriously come back to life as a result of this, then we know we've caught a mafioso. If the original lynch was a mafioso, then they still weren't killing between their lynch and resurrection, so the town still comes out ahead.

First point: it does not obtain that an individual who at a later point alters the vote is Mafia. Not at all.

Second point: look back to the host's notice that orders should be sent nightly, because n the event of resurrection they will immediately be implemented.


And if the mafia tries to interfere with this somehow, they'll either show their hand or waste their time-travel, which is a net win for the town.

Why do you assume limited abilities? There are no one-shots here, as far as I'm aware.

Vote: Ishmael

[CountArach]

Vote: CountArach

Welcome back.
I said be gentle :angry:

Why do you assume limited abilities? There are no one-shots here, as far as I'm aware.

Vote: Ishmael
This is a remarkably good point though at the same time it seems unlikely that the mafia would also be one-shot so I don't think that it's is a slip-up.

Regardless I do like the general argument of keeping the voting close until we can be fairly certain. At the very least it gives us the chance of saving any pro town roles. It also makes it harder for the time police/mafia to hide.

Vote: Ishmael

[Ishmael]

First point: it does not obtain that an individual who at a later point alters the vote is Mafia. Not at all.

Second point: look back to the host's notice that orders should be sent nightly, because n the event of resurrection they will immediately be implemented.


I'm not suggesting that - I'm saying that if a townie (or a mafioso, theoretically) alters a previous day's lynch then the pattern of kills, and so the people 'presently' alive, will change. That would be a clear indication that the person lynched or un-lynched was mafia (or a serial killer. If there is a vigilante, then all bets are off).


Why do you assume limited abilities? There are no one-shots here, as far as I'm aware.

As I was typing up my response to this, I double-checked my role PM and realised that you are correct on this. Nonetheless, my point still stands (to an extent) as the mafia can't kill on a night that they are time-travelling.

A question for CB - does all time travel occur at night?

[Montmorency]

A
question for CB - does all time travel occur at night?

No.


I'm not suggesting that - I'm saying that if a townie (or a mafioso, theoretically) alters a previous day's lynch then the pattern of kills, and so the people 'presently' alive, will change. That would be a clear indication that the person lynched or un-lynched was mafia (or a serial killer. If there is a vigilante, then all bets are off).

Well, this doesn't quite work. I need to reformulate...

[Montmorency]

This scenario is possible if dead players can cast Potential Votes, made effective in the event of undeath:

Townie votes for A on Dx. A is lynched in tie-vote with B. A casts Potential Vote on Y, who is Mafia.
On D(x+1) X wins a tie-vote with Y. Y is scum, and puts in a Potential Kill on Z (for N[x+1]).
On D/N(x+2), Townie goes back to change vote to B. B is lynched, A is unlynched, so Y is unlynched, and Z is Night-Killed on N(x+1).

And yet, Neither A nor B were scum.

I can't be bothered to look back; is that condition accounted for in the rules? :blush:

This can get pretty convoluted. I think we're guaranteed to see a paradox or two; good that those responsible will be killed off as a rule.

[Ishmael]

Good point, potential votes would throw things out of whack. I still maintain that even then, by reversing lynches we can gain useful information, as long as the town thinks it through carefully and doesn't leap to false conclusions.

As to my earlier question, I phrased it poorly - what I meant to ask was whether time travel is always a night action, or can be used during a day phase. I assume it's the former, otherwise the mafia would be able to kill people at their normal rate whilst also wreaking havoc by time-travelling during the day phases.

[Montmorency]

I take it to be once per round (i.e. day+night).

Unvote;

[CountArach]

I'm confused, can you please explain that in a vaguely non-mathematical way?

The more I think about this the more I realise that our best bet would be to have an almost tied vote every day between two different people so that at any given point we can go back and change to lynch someone that we suspect. That is to say at the end of day 2 we will have 4 people who are able to be killed at short notice, at the end of day 3 we have 6 people, etc, etc. This would mean that the degree of certainty that we need to lynch someone who is scum would be lower, as we can just make any real suspects one of these two people.

[Montmorency]

That would surely depend on the number of players with vote-changing abilities, and their alignments.

It would be better seal the deal and take the consequences, rather than open up the possibility for shenanigans which I don't have the inclination to fathom ATM.

[Montmorency]

Noticed an error, corrected in bold:

Townie votes for A on Dx. A is lynched in tie-vote with B. A casts Potential Vote on X (not Y).
On D(x+1) X wins a tie-vote with Y. Y is scum, and puts in a Potential Kill on Z (for N[x+1]).
On D/N(x+2), Townie goes back to change vote to B. B is lynched, A is unlynched, so Y is unlynched, and Z is Night-Killed on N(x+1).

Basically, if players can cast votes which are redeemed in event of undeath (and we know scum can place kill orders in the same manner), then it is possible to arrive at a result wherein a vote-change ability is used that inadvertently resurrects a Timecop, who then has been around to NK a townie who would otherwise have lived.

[CountArach]

That would surely depend on the number of players with vote-changing abilities, and their alignments.
Assuming that all townies can go back and change their vote on any given day then it shouldn't be a problem. In fact it naturally plays into the town's advantage of numerical superiority.

[Montmorency]

What is your ability?

[CountArach]

Basically, if players can cast votes which are redeemed in event of undeath (and we know scum can place kill orders in the same manner), then it is possible to arrive at a result wherein a vote-change ability is used that inadvertently resurrects a Timecop, who then has been around to NK a townie who would otherwise have lived.
But that would give us the certainty that they are a time cop and they can be lynched either during the day phase or by going back in time and lynching them again - which would allow for a double lynch.

[Montmorency]

But that would give us the certainty that they are a time cop and they can be lynched either during the day phase or by going back in time and lynching them again - which would allow for a double lynch.

But if there should be more than one link in the chain, we couldn't be sure? That was the simpliest example I could conceive, after all...

[CountArach]

What is your ability?
Vote chaning. Et tu?

[Montmorency]

Sure.

And now we all have to prove it tonight?

Hoo boy. Any stats guys want to develop a game-plan for all of us, that would guarantee alignment confirmation based on determined votes and vote-changes?

We need outside experts!

[SalmonSoil]

We should go with the near-tie vote plan. Every day we do this gives over half of the players the power to change who lives and dies on every day after that day. After a few days we will all have the power to change who is alive and dead. Because everyone will abuse this power to try kill people who they believe are scum or save those they think are innocent, we will arrive at a state where who is alive and who is dead is constantly shifting. This means that we will rapidly shift through the different possible combinations of alive / dead players. As soon as we hit a combination where both scum are dead, we win.

In this situation it is actually better to have as many peoples lives threatened by the near-tie vote, as it gives more players power over life/death on that day and allows for more combinations. At the moment Ishmael, Arjos and Greyblades all have 2 votes. I will vote: Montmorency so that he now also has two votes.

[Montmorency]

I think it is a grave mistake to assume that


As soon as we hit a combination where both scum are dead, we win.

is the logical conclusion.

Why do you say over half, by the way?

Alright, 2/16 have claimed a vote-change ability.

So...

[Ishmael]

Alright, 2/16 have claimed a vote-change ability.



This is going to be a fairly standard kind of set up for a game with one major exception. Every single character will have the ability to go back to either a night or a day phase at any time in the game and change their action on that day or night.

Judging by this, I'd say that everybody has a 'vote-changing ability' - it doesn't appear to be unique. If their are doctors or vigilantes, I imagine they could change their orders as well, but I doubt there are seeing as it would make things more complicated and the host said it would be a fairly standard game.

EDIT: Yay, I just reached the devil post count! I'm tempted to leave the .Org now and never come back, just to preserve it. :beam:

[Visor]

^^ I agree with Ishamel.

I don't believe that there is any doctors or vigilantes. Simply too complicated. It's a standard vanilla game, 14 town and 3 mafia, IMO.

[Montmorency]

Well, that's embarassing! Of course, that means a cop could go go back in time instead of kill (while dead).

With everyone flipping around their votes willy nilly, you won't learn a single useful thing.


It shouldn't be that confusing I hope if anything the confusion will happen on my end. Basically when a person going back in time changes an outcome you will simply appear or disappear in the next write up.

So Vote: Count Arach.

Go ahead. Let's have half the players tied. I'd love to see how this works out.


It's a standard vanilla game, 14 town and 3 mafia, IMO.


When you die the game is not over for you. Since at any point you might come back in the game you must continue to send in votes and night actions the same as anyone else if you are resurrected these actions will go into force straight away.


I was right about this. Also, why do you think there are 3, necessarily. Could be 2, could be 4.

[Visor]

Vespasian. 3 mafioso. It is also the general accepted standard here if I'm not wrong?

[CountArach]

Vespasian. 3 mafioso. It is also the general accepted standard here if I'm not wrong?
I would have assumed 2 for a game this size.

[Lewwyn]

Interesting. Chain switching votes and deaths. So if we play out 4 days and then someone comes back in time and lynches a mafia on Day 1 do those that were night-killed after day 1 come back to life? Does each mafia have an individual kill or do they choose who is doing the kill for that night and if we get the right mafia it effects the kill stream?

If we're going to do this 2 by 2 I'm going to vote for someone not on the block already. Vote: Yaropolk Yesterday's friends, today's possible enemy.

[SalmonSoil]

I did some calculations to see if we can kill the mafia just by sweeping through as many possibilities as possible:

Firstly, if there are two mafia there are 136 different possible combinations of players who could be mafia. If there are 3 there are 680 and if there are 4 there are 2380.
Assuming the worst possible circumstances following my plan (only tie-voting 2 people each day, excluding today where we seem to be ready to tie-vote 5), we will have all the possible combinations of players available to us by day 6 (assuming two mafia), if we tie-vote 3 people each day (assuming 5 today), we will have all the possible combinations of 2 mafia by day 4 (except 1, which is too small a chance to be of concern), all the possible combinations of 3 mafia by day 6 and all the possible combinations of 4 by day 7. This all assumes 1 night kill for the entire mafia (in which case we will survive to day 7), and that no paradoxes occur (and I believe one is likely to at some point). This also assumes no other power roles.
These numbers are all overestimates however, because the nature of this game means that the combinations of live/dead players will be closely related to individual player action and not pure chance. Thus we will have to both scum hunt and gain near tie-votes every round.

In response to Monty, who asked why a near tie-vote would give over half of players power over that days outcome; Imagine A, B and C all vote for X, whilst X and Y vote for A. X is lynched. After that day A, B and C will have the power to change the outcome of that days lynch by changing their vote from X to A, whereas X and Y do not have the same power because changing their vote to X will not change the outcome. This can be overcome by working with other players, but that isn't as powerful as being able to change the vote without help.

Now onto scum hunting. I believe Monty is scum because he didn't know that everyone had time traveling powers, if he had got the town role pm and read it then he would have been told that he has time traveling powers and would probably have assumed that everyone else who is town also did. So either he is guilty, or a power role (if they exist).
The only other alternatives are that either he didn't notice his pm and assumed he was town or he skimmed his pm, which seems unlikely.

[SalmonSoil]

I should also add that if I have convinced anyone that Monty is guilty we still need to stick to the near-tie vote plan, so don't wagon on him.

[Tuuvi]

Now onto scum hunting. I believe Monty is scum because he didn't know that everyone had time traveling powers, if he had got the town role pm and read it then he would have been told that he has time traveling powers and would probably have assumed that everyone else who is town also did. So either he is guilty, or a power role (if they exist).
The only other alternatives are that either he didn't notice his pm and assumed he was town or he skimmed his pm, which seems unlikely.

I think Monty is guilty too. He seems kinda belligerent as well, and is against us having any sort of plan.

I'm gonna Vote: Yaropolk in accordance with the near-tie vote plan.

Also, a noob question: what is a power role?

[Chaotix]

Also, a noob question: what is a power role?

Pretty much exactly what it sounds like.

Any player that has a "power" outside that of a normal townie, such as investigation, roleblock, protection, etc. is considered a "power role".

Technically, you could consider the mafia "power roles", but when people use the term they usually mean pro-town or at least neutral roles.

In this game, you might consider every player a power role since we can all go back in time. But if everyone is a power role, then you might say no one is a power role...

[Ishmael]

Now onto scum hunting. I believe Monty is scum because he didn't know that everyone had time traveling powers, if he had got the town role pm and read it then he would have been told that he has time traveling powers and would probably have assumed that everyone else who is town also did. So either he is guilty, or a power role (if they exist).
The only other alternatives are that either he didn't notice his pm and assumed he was town or he skimmed his pm, which seems unlikely.

To be fair to Montmorency, I did almost exactly the same thing earlier when I skimmed my role PM and assumed that everybody could only go back in time once. It's by no means conclusive, or even overly indicative (Monty, please don't actually be scum now or I'll be lynched because of this post).

[CountArach]

.Now onto scum hunting. I believe Monty is scum because he didn't know that everyone had time traveling powers, if he had got the town role pm and read it then he would have been told that he has time traveling powers and would probably have assumed that everyone else who is town also did. So either he is guilty, or a power role (if they exist).
The only other alternatives are that either he didn't notice his pm and assumed he was town or he skimmed his pm, which seems unlikely.
I must say the town PM was pretty ambiguous as to whether or not it was a town PM which makes me wonder if you yourself have read it.

[Ishmael]

I must say the town PM was pretty ambiguous as to whether or not it was a town PM which makes me wonder if you yourself have read it.

Hmm, I should probably check that my PM was a town PM. The Time Police are the bad guys, right? :inquisitive:

[Montmorency]

I did some calculations to see if we can kill the mafia just by sweeping through as many possibilities as possible:

Firstly, if there are two mafia there are 136 different possible combinations of players who could be mafia. If there are 3 there are 680 and if there are 4 there are 2380.
Assuming the worst possible circumstances following my plan (only tie-voting 2 people each day, excluding today where we seem to be ready to tie-vote 5), we will have all the possible combinations of players available to us by day 6 (assuming two mafia), if we tie-vote 3 people each day (assuming 5 today), we will have all the possible combinations of 2 mafia by day 4 (except 1, which is too small a chance to be of concern), all the possible combinations of 3 mafia by day 6 and all the possible combinations of 4 by day 7. This all assumes 1 night kill for the entire mafia (in which case we will survive to day 7), and that no paradoxes occur (and I believe one is likely to at some point). This also assumes no other power roles.
These numbers are all overestimates however, because the nature of this game means that the combinations of live/dead players will be closely related to individual player action and not pure chance. Thus we will have to both scum hunt and gain near tie-votes every round.

o

Depends on town's ability not to repeat players in the ties.Your maths are a bit useless, as they can't be applied to anything. Not only that, but they have it the other way around.


In response to Monty, who asked why a near tie-vote would give over half of players power over that days outcome; Imagine A, B and C all vote for X, whilst X and Y vote for A. X is lynched. After that day A, B and C will have the power to change the outcome of that days lynch by changing their vote from X to A, whereas X and Y do not have the same power because changing their vote to X will not change the outcome. This can be overcome by working with other players, but that isn't as powerful as being able to change the vote without help.

What? When did I ask this? I think you've misread my posts.


Now onto scum hunting. I believe Monty is scum because he didn't know that everyone had time traveling powers, if he had got the town role pm and read it then he would have been told that he has time traveling powers and would probably have assumed that everyone else who is town also did. So either he is guilty, or a power role (if they exist).
The only other alternatives are that either he didn't notice his pm and assumed he was town or he skimmed his pm, which seems unlikely

Hm, no, that's a horrible thing to assume. Why would anyone assume that? The reason I should have known that everyone has this power is because it says so in the OP.

I believe this is a pretty poor plan because it muddles absolutely everything and tells us absolutely nothing. If we tie multiple people a day, we practically guarantee a "future" change in the lynch. What exactly is the benefit in this?

[seireikhaan]

Vote: SalmonSoil

Hunchity hunch.

[CountArach]

I believe this is a pretty poor plan because it muddles absolutely everything and tells us absolutely nothing. If we tie multiple people a day, we practically guarantee a "future" change in the lynch. What exactly is the benefit in this?
But the ability to change things is our biggest advantage.

[Montmorency]

It's not a collective ability, it is the individual ability of each and every player.

That means Mafia can change the vote as easily as a townie.

Or would you place yourself at the head of things here? "Everyone, change your vote to X tonight".

You believe these orders will be followed without question?

[DaveShack]

When does this day end? The "starting now" post didn't say.

Big mistake trying to digest that right before bed. I tend towards having lucid problem-solving dreams, my subconscious will be going nuts trying to find out what voting pattern is needed to make it easier to find the mafia.

[SalmonSoil]

I must say the town PM was pretty ambiguous as to whether or not it was a town PM which makes me wonder if you yourself have read it.

I assume quoting the role PM's is allowed right? "See the time police destroyed" is pretty unambiguous, I'm now wondering whether you received a town PM. Again, I can see how the abilities info would be missed if the PM was skimmed. I'm not saying this evidence against Monty is conclusive, but it's day one, I don't expect conclusive evidence for a day one lynch.


o

Depends on town's ability not to repeat players in the ties.Your maths are a bit useless, as they can't be applied to anything. Not only that, but they have it the other way around.

This does depend on town working together, yeah. Yes maths can't be applied perfectly, because they ignore so much, but I think they indicate pretty good chances if there are only two mafia, and remember this method will be combined with scum hunting.


What? When did I ask this? I think you've misread my posts.


Why do you say over half, by the way?

I assumed you were asking about why I stated that a near tie-vote gives over half of the players power over that days lynch. Sorry if I misinterpreted.


Hm, no, that's a horrible thing to assume. Why would anyone assume that? The reason I should have known that everyone has this power is because it says so in the OP.

Hmm, point taken. I probably just took my knowledge from the OP and unconsciously applied it to my PM.


I believe this is a pretty poor plan because it muddles absolutely everything and tells us absolutely nothing. If we tie multiple people a day, we practically guarantee a "future" change in the lynch. What exactly is the benefit in this?

The goal of this plan isn't to find the mafia, the goal is to make it easier to lynch them. Assuming only one mafia kill per night and no serial killer it will take the Mafia 7 days to win if neither die. In a standard game this means 7 lynches to find the mafia, but in this game using this plan we can lynch anyone at any time, essentially giving us hundreds of possible lynch combinations to choose from. I'm not saying we just roll the dice to test every possible combination of lynches, what I intend is something more like this, say on day 4 I think that A and B are guilty A was almost lynched on day 2 and B was almost lynched on day 3. If I can convince a small number of other people to work with me, we can have A and B lynched right away, without needing to gain a majority vote. if we don't win, then we were wrong and the mistake can be remedied.

Placing people several votes away from resurrection benefits mafia as the person is more likely to be innocent than guilty. If by some chance we do become incredibly certain that some one is mafia there is no reason we can't just wagon them out of reach of time travel, and then resume the tie vote plan next turn.

Also you say this plan wont tell us anything, but this day one has been more serious than most day ones are. I'm sure the mafia will still be uneasy about being one of the suspects in a tie-vote, as it makes it easier to lynch them. I do think the tie vote this round is a bit ridiculous, I think 3 or 4 suspects is the best balance as it will place more pressure on mafia.

[Ishmael]

It's not a collective ability, it is the individual ability of each and every player.

That means Mafia can change the vote as easily as a townie.

Or would you place yourself at the head of things here? "Everyone, change your vote to X tonight".

You believe these orders will be followed without question?

I would encourage people to go nuts and change the vote however they like. As long as there is a change in the lynch it gives the town more information, whether the change is initiated by a mafioso or a townie. With a little deductive work we should be able to figure out exactly how things have changed each day (based on who's come back to life and/or died), and that should hopefully allow us to catch the mafia by determining when nightkills are changed and why. In fact, I would go so far as to say that having everybody do their own thing is better, as the randomness will help foil any attempts by the scum to derail things. The one thing the town does have to work together in, however, is keeping the lynches tight - ideally a single changed vote should be enough to change the lynch on any particular day phase.

[Montmorency]

That ignores the law of unintended consequences.

What if the unlynched players cast Potential Votes such that a mafioso is unlynched with their implementation, or something like that?

It is very important to note two things:

1. There is no way to tell if 1 to x-1 mafiosi have been lynched, x being the total # of Mafiosi. This makes it even easier to accidentally rescue scum.
2. There are no second chances. You only get to change your vote on a particular day once. Choose wisely.

[Montmorency]

I would encourage people to go nuts and change the vote however they like. As long as there is a change in the lynch it gives the town more information, whether the change is initiated by a mafioso or a townie. With a little deductive work we should be able to figure out exactly how things have changed each day (based on who's come back to life and/or died), and that should hopefully allow us to catch the mafia by determining when nightkills are changed and why. In fact, I would go so far as to say that having everybody do their own thing is better, as the randomness will help foil any attempts by the scum to derail things. The one thing the town does have to work together in, however, is keeping the lynches tight - ideally a single changed vote should be enough to change the lynch on any particular day phase.

If there is more than 1 scum, night kills should never change. One vote will not be enough, if more than a dozen individuals are switching around.

Say today we have 5 candidates with 2 votes each. Perhaps someone else entirely (a sixth!) will wind up being lynched as a result of the cumulative changes.

[Ishmael]

If there is more than 1 scum, night kills should never change.

...I have managed to completely overlook this point. Okay, time to rethink things.

[Montmorency]

Whatever the case, it is clear that things will only get more convoluted as times goes on. If the D1 lynch is changed after tonight, or the D2 lynch after N2, etc...

then all analysis goes down the toilet.

But then again, it would on the flipside be increasingly difficult to effect such a change. Since vote tallies will not be updated based on changes (the only indication is a remix of the...)....

[Ishmael]

On an unrelated note, has CB mentioned anywhere what the result of a tied lynch is?

[Montmorency]

For all we know, the game hasn't even technically begun. :shrug:

[CountArach]

It's not a collective ability, it is the individual ability of each and every player.

That means Mafia can change the vote as easily as a townie.

Or would you place yourself at the head of things here? "Everyone, change your vote to X tonight".

You believe these orders will be followed without question?
I'm saying the town as a group should make a group decision that the group will follow. The entire idea of cooperation is that people will do this in the interest of the majority. If (assuming there are 2 mafiosi) 2 mafiosi both change their votes in an effort to counteract town efforts to lynch someone then it only takes 3 townies out of the 15 other people to get the desired result. Further, that is assuming that mafiosi can change their votes, which we don't know for sure.

I assume quoting the role PM's is allowed right? "See the time police destroyed" is pretty unambiguous, I'm now wondering whether you received a town PM. Again, I can see how the abilities info would be missed if the PM was skimmed. I'm not saying this evidence against Monty is conclusive, but it's day one, I don't expect conclusive evidence for a day one lynch.
I would expect the same thing from an individual role, as that would be their goal too.

[Montmorency]

I'm saying the town as a group should make a group decision that the group will follow. The entire idea of cooperation is that people will do this in the interest of the majority. If (assuming there are 2 mafiosi) 2 mafiosi both change their votes in an effort to counteract town efforts to lynch someone then it only takes 3 townies out of the 15 other people to get the desired result. Further, that is assuming that mafiosi can change their votes, which we don't know for sure.

1. That cooperation will be more difficult to extract (particularly in a restricted period of time) than you realize.

2.
Every single character will have the ability to go back to either a night or a day phase at any time in the game and change their action on that day or night.

Ah hell, so kills can change without any of the lynches changing. It just gets better and better.

[CountArach]

1. That cooperation will be more difficult to extract (particularly in a restricted period of time) than you realize.
We have had a fair number of players active since the starting post, and if even some of them acted it would be enough. I think it could be managed.

Ah hell, so kills can change without any of the lynches changing. It just gets better and better.
Ah. That complicates matters somewhat. In fact the only real results we have are what occurs on the first night.

I still maintain that close voting is the best way to go, but the kill changing is a real difficulty...

[Ishmael]

Ah hell, so kills can change without any of the lynches changing. It just gets better and better.

But the mafia can't do anything else on a night that they time-travel, so it should be pretty evident when they do change their kill(s).

[Montmorency]

You mean besides the fact that a person who was killed is suddenly alive? :tongue:

Arach: Do you have a case on whom we should switch to with our vote-change abilities?

[CountArach]

Arach: Do you have a case on whom we should switch to with our vote-change abilities?
Not yet. That's why we should leave our options as open as possible. Don't get me wrong, if we have someone who we are even 90% sure is scum we should lynch them as hard as we can, but at this point in the game, I'd say we should keep our options open.

[Captain Blackadder]

23 hours left in the round.

The first round will be longer to answer any questions that people have. I will now go back over all the questions and edit this post with answers.

Question and Answer Time

When does Time Travelling Occur?

It occurs at night time travelling is a night action if it is done then you character can do no other night action if they have any.

Role PM'S

No quoting of them please. You can state your role name but that is all

[Captain Blackadder]

Also where is the code for the end of round timers?

[Riedquat]

Vote: Salmonsoil for now, perhaps in a week I change my mind! :laugh4::dizzy2:

[edse]

vote: Riedquat

I think we should avoid long time travels, say more than 2 rounds, if we keep all votes close.

[Ishmael]

vote: Riedquat

I think we should avoid long time travels, say more than 2 rounds, if we keep all votes close.

Why is that?

Also, here's a poll - tell me if I've made any mistakes:

CountArach (Chaotix, Montmorency)
Greyblades (Arjos, Yarapolk)
Arjos (Greyblades, Ishmael)
Yarapolk (Lewwyn, Tuuvi)
SalmonSoil (issaikhaan, Riedquat)
Riedquat (edse)
Ishmael (CountArach)
Montmorency (Visorslash)

[CountArach]

Unvote; Vote: edse

Please justify your former vote.

[Tuuvi]

Since we are allowed to state our role names, do you guys think we should all state who we are? I think it might make it easier to figure things out once we read the write ups.

[edse]

Please justify your former vote.

The vote was just random like everyone else's.

The other part was because so many people are affected by long time travels. One or two (Close votes and night kills) each round that you travel and for example for a 4 round trip you get 5 or 6 dead people returning and the same number of living players that die.

[LazyMcCrow]

Interesting theorizination.... ing. Close voting/options open makes sense - as always?Vote: Ishmael

[Captain Blackadder]

Round Over prepare for write up.

[Captain Blackadder]

As the clocks and the hourglasses of T.I.M.E begin to shudder the arguments between all the time travellers heighten there seems to be an agreement made. Since they still have access to the time travel devices they should keep all these decisions close so that any time traveller from the future could easily change the result of what just occurred. It is thus decided that all should be made to feel the pressure of the vote regardless of actual suspicion. It comes from this result that six people are put up before the Gods of Time as the first people who could be the T.I.M.E agents. With six people to be chosen from how could it be done so it was fair. A random number mayhap could be given to each candidate to determine this. It is agreed all the people turn to the good Inspector Spacetime for him to be the one to organise this since it is known that Inspector Spacetime could not possible be evil. He turns to those facing him and hands them one by one a stick from his hand. Once that is complete they all open their hands to see who will be the first sacrificed. It turns out to be Jack Harkness (Arjos) a former T.I.M.E agent who long ago left the organisation. He accepts his fact with calmness knowing that with time travel this death will be purely temporary. He walks to the portal and is promptly removed from the time stream. Inspector Spacetime talks to those present. It is time we all go to bed. Was the decision we made a bad one? Should we change its result? Now remember everyone we can only travel to any given place once so it is a question we must ask is it worth it to do it now? Or should we await more information.

Monty CountArach
Visorslash Monty
CountArach Edse
Lewwyn Yaropolk
Daveshack
Chaotix CountArach
Atheotos
yaropolk Greyblades
Arjos Greyblades
reidquat SalmonSoil
SalmonSoil Monty
Ishamel Arjos
LazyMcCrow Ishmael
Edse Reidquat
Tuuvi Yaropolk
Greyblades Arjos
Khan SalmonSoil


Begin Night One

Montmorency
Visorslash
CountArach
Lewwyn
Daveshack
Chaotix
Atheothos
Yaropolk
Arjos
Reidquat
Salmonsoil
Ishmael
LazyMcCrow
Edse
Tuuvi
Greyblades
Khann

[Yaropolk]

Captain B - can I please request that you add vote tally's to the writeup. With time travel powers i think its very important to keep track of who is voting for whom.

[Montmorency]

Aha!

That won't work, Yaro. You see, tallies will not be updated with manipulations!

The only indicator that any votes were changed would be a change in the Living Player list.


it is known that Inspector Spacetime could not possible be evil.

Who exactly is evil here? The TIME agents only want to prevent us from making the whole universe die!

[edse]

Aha!

That won't work, Yaro. You see, tallies will not be updated with manipulations!

The only indicator that any votes were changed would be a change in the Living Player list.

I believe he meant the normal tally so that you in the future easily can see how the votes can have been altered.

2 CountArach (Chaotix, Montmorency)
2 Greyblades (Arjos, Yarapolk)
2 Arjos (Greyblades, Ishmael)
2 Yarapolk (Lewwyn, Tuuvi)
2 SalmonSoil (issaikhaan, Riedquat)
1 Riedquat (edse)
1 Ishmael (LazyMcCrow)
1 Montmorency (Visorslash)
1 edse (CountArach)

3 No Vote (DaveShack, atheotes, Salmonsoil)

[Riedquat]

But... uh...eh... Arjos is in that list... isn't he? So.. if no tally and no lynch are showed this game will last forever, no?

Edit: bah! edse beat me :(

[Montmorency]

I believe he meant the normal tally so that you in the future easily can see how the votes can have been altered.



But... uh...eh... Arjos is in that list... isn't he? So.. if no tally and no lynch are showed this game will last forever, no?


It shouldn't be that confusing I hope if anything the confusion will happen on my end. Basically when a person going back in time changes an outcome you will simply appear or disappear in the next write up.

If he does begin to include tallies, and alter them as per your suggestion, then yes, things will become much easier, or at least much more interesting.

However, I have seen no indication that he will do it.

[edse]

If he does begin to include tallies, and alter them as per your suggestion, then yes, things will become much easier, or at least much more interesting.

However, I have seen no indication that he will do it.

No, I meant that he won't edit them. Like if Riedquat is lynched when the new day starts we can see that two people might have changed their vote by looking at CB's post with the tally.

[Riedquat]

You have an insane fixation you know? :P

[Montmorency]

No, I meant that he won't edit them. Like if Riedquat is lynched when the new day starts we can see that two people might have changed their vote by looking at CB's post with the tally.

How could you tell? Any of the players might have switched.

For example, if no one switches tonight but me, I could have Greyblades lynched and it wouldn't have anything to do with Arjos or Yaro...

[edse]

How could you tell? Any of the players might have switched.

For example, if no one switches tonight but me, I could have Greyblades lynched and it wouldn't have anything to do with Arjos or Yaro...

So you think we shouldn't care about previous days tallies at all?

[Montmorency]

You'll still know whom voted for whom (originally) of course, but in a game like this scope for bussing/distancing is huge.

So, basically, yeah. It's worth very little.

[edse]

You'll still know whom voted for whom (originally) of course, but in a game like this scope for bussing/distancing is huge.

So, basically, yeah. It's worth very little.

You'll turn up lynched tomorrow...

[Montmorency]

Hmmm - it's the Mafia who usually like to keep inconvenient truths quiet...

[Chaotix]

Hmmm - it's the Mafia who usually like to keep inconvenient truths quiet...

I think that's probably what edse was getting at.

If you're town, scum will lynch you to shut you up.

If you're scum, town will lynch you because you're scum.

There's no being a super-townie in this game...

[Montmorency]

Tell that to Arach!

[SalmonSoil]

3 No Vote (DaveShack, atheotes, Salmonsoil)

Ummmm. Pretty sure I voted for Montmorency.

[CountArach]

Where we're we told that there were no super townies?

Okay I think the write up clues us in on things here. Argos is innocent because Harkness is invariably a good character in his shows and the write up seems to conform that. I'm guessing that we can't reveal our characters but if we experiment a bit with who we kill it looks like the write ups will at least tell us if we got someone scummy.

Also CB - You wouldn't happen to be a fan of community would you? :wink:

[Chaotix]

Where we're we told that there were no super townies?

Okay I think the write up clues us in on things here. Argos is innocent because Harkness is invariably a good character in his shows and the write up seems to conform that. I'm guessing that we can't reveal our characters but if we experiment a bit with who we kill it looks like the write ups will at least tell us if we got someone scummy.



By super-townies, I mean high-profile clearly-town-assisting type players, not power roles.

As for Arjos - can't say that for sure. It would kind of defeat the purpose of the game if we were told who was innocent and who not once we killed them- it would make the time travel a lot less interesting as a concept.

[atheotes]

Where we're we told that there were no super townies?

Okay I think the write up clues us in on things here. Argos is innocent because Harkness is invariably a good character in his shows and the write up seems to conform that. I'm guessing that we can't reveal our characters but if we experiment a bit with who we kill it looks like the write ups will at least tell us if we got someone scummy.

I dont think you are getting any indication of scum from the role name and perhaps even the writeups.


Role PM'S

No quoting of them please. You can state your role name but that is all

[CountArach]

I dont think you are getting any indication of scum from the role name and perhaps even the writeups.
Then what does this mean?

It turns out to be Jack Harkness (Arjos) a former T.I.M.E agent who long ago left the organisation.

[Greyblades]

Eh, that would actually make him more suspicious considering he's already been working for T.I.M.E and has a connection with the organization, still, I would imagine getting one of the mafia would have incurred a more violent incident in the writeup... Unless that bit about "this death will be purely temporary" is alluding to how the Time agents are likely top resurrect a fallen comrade after this timewarp is done. Hmm... I kinda wish arjos turned out to be the doctor at least there'd be a decent chance he's on the up and up story wise and resurrecting him would be a no brainer.

[Montmorency]

Oh :daisy:

:worried:

[Greyblades]

Eh?

[Montmorency]

There is no way out. But it's too late now, with only hours to spare.

[LazyMcCrow]

Eh?

I guess you're replying to Monty's brainfart, but that's also pretty much my response to most of what's been posted so far. I'm hoping it'll all make more sense in the morning.

[CountArach]

There is no way out. But it's too late now, with only hours to spare.
Care to share?

[edse]

Ummmm. Pretty sure I voted for Montmorency.

You are right.


I believe he meant the normal tally so that you in the future easily can see how the votes can have been altered.

2 CountArach (Chaotix, Montmorency)
2 Greyblades (Arjos, Yarapolk)
2 Arjos (Greyblades, Ishmael)
2 Yarapolk (Lewwyn, Tuuvi)
2 SalmonSoil (issaikhaan, Riedquat)
2 Montmorency (Visorslash, SalmonSoil)
1 Riedquat (edse)
1 Ishmael (LazyMcCrow)
1 edse (CountArach)

2 No Vote (DaveShack, atheotes)

[Captain Blackadder]

Round Over prepare for write up.

[Captain Blackadder]

As night falls on the headquarters of T.I.M.E the various time travellers return to their rooms to decide what it is that they need to do to see that they can survive. The people return to their rooms one by one. Suddenly people hear the sound of humming. A time machine has started up. A loud crack is heard as the figure disappears into the past. The others that have not chosen to do this wait to see who it is that will die.

A figure is sitting in his room working on the backstep device. His name is Frank Parker (Chaotix) a former CIA man now working for a top secret US government project to deal with time travel. He is leaning over the device whispering to it. Hush Lulu I will use you soon enough. Just have to calibrate the needles to improve my landings. So far I have never landed where I wanted to but this will change Lulu. Allright time to undo that event. Frank starts to put on his chrononaut uniform but it is not to be. As he stands by his time machine. A figure comes by. You have meddled enough Frank Parker. You are the worst of the lot. Always going back in time saving countless people that should have died. Starker should have taken over the US government. That virus should have being released and killed millions. That dam should have collapsed. Yet you had to stop all those things and turn them “right”. Well prepare to die Parker and this time there will be no turning back time for you. With these roads the figure pulls out a small device aims it at Parker and fires. Parker feels the very atoms of his body being torn apart and then he simply vanishes. All that is left of the chrononaut is a small patch of fire and his now non-functioning backstep device. \

Chaotix (Frank Parker) is dead

Alexander Gibson (SalmonSoil) stood in his room utterly confused by some of the things people were saying. All he wanted was to play a nice round of Golf and find out what had changed in the game since the year 2000 where he had last seen the game after travelling in time from 1892. He had heard of this women’s liberation idea in the year 2000 and found it to be a grand idea indeed for it left the men of the year 2000 with much more time to play golf. With that he prepared his clubs for a quick game that night. When he turned to leave the room a figure was standing there with a giant rifle. Where is he? It is you isn't it? Your the one I want arn't you? Answer me!! Gibson began to speak. Why my good man I have no idea what you want do you want to play a round? Maybe I could take your photograph when I went to the year 2000 they told me that colour photography was all the rage in London Town. With that the figure yells out shut up, shut up, shut up!!! And pulls his rifle up and shoots Alexander Gibson in the head.


Alexander Gibson (SalmonSoil) is dead


Now for the final scene A figure stalks his prey to his room but this time just as he is about to enter the room a loud cracking sound is heard and when he enters the room the time travel device and his intended victim are gone nowhere to be seen. The figure curses and curses that his victim should escape in such a manner. Next time he realises that he needs to be quicker to get this man. Next time he will not be so lucky. Next time he will pay.

As day breaks Inspector Spacetime walks out and looks around to see if any time traveller should appear or disappear based on the time travel from last night. Nothing happens Jack Harkness is still dead. Allright men let us begin and find out who should we lynch this time around?

Begin Day Two

Round Ends in 24 Hours

Montmorency
Visorslash
CountArach
Lewwyn
Daveshack
Chaotix
Atheothos
Yaropolk
Arjos
Reidquat
Salmonsoil
Ishmael
LazyMcCrow
Edse
Tuuvi
Greyblades
Khann

[Montmorency]

Now for the final scene A figure stalks his prey to his room but this time just as he is about to enter the room a loud cracking sound is heard and when he enters the room the time travel device and his intended victim are gone nowhere to be seen. The figure curses and curses that his victim should escape in such a manner. Next time he realises that he needs to be quicker to get this man. Next time he will not be so lucky. Next time he will pay.

Interesting.

Alright, so this means there are 3 kills, and one doctor. Or if the quoted is fluff, or something else entirely, well - still 2 kills.

That leads me to believe that I was wrong. Kills prbably will change if a killer is lynched in the past.

I will admit to
the people return to their rooms one by one. Suddenly people hear the sound of humming. A time machine has started up. A loud crack is heard as the figure disappears into the past. The others that have not chosen to do this wait to see who it is that will die..

I went back to move my vote onto Arjos; blame edse for making me paranoid.

What is our course of action? We could collectively lynch anyone on D1, and see if Chaotix or Salmon survive.

However, we can not pull that sort of trick indefinitely, as the multiple kills will within 3 or 4 days whittle us to the point that the Mafia will simply interfere with the attempt. Also, don't forget the 1-travel limit.

All in all, things look pretty dire.

[CountArach]

However, we can not pull that sort of trick indefinitely, as the multiple kills will within 3 or 4 days whittle us to the point that the Mafia will simply interfere with the attempt. Also, don't forget the 1-travel limit.

All in all, things look pretty dire.
Yes indeed... though I wonder if the doctor can go back in time to protect someone who was attacked on a previous night. If there is a doctor of course. If you are reading this, hypothetical doctor, please try to do that if you can as it will save us valuable townies.

What is our course of action? We could collectively lynch anyone on D1, and see if Chaotix or Salmon survive.
Yeah I think that is our best bet, but we must do that with our night actions. It doesn't get us any closer on who to kill today. Also you sort of used your 1 travel to day 1 on self-preservation...

I received a PM from Yaropolk that is somewhat suspicious, though whether or not it is indictable is another question altogether. It is contained below:

CA - I am planning to change my vote for yesterday. I believe that people tied for 1st with 2 votes are most likely innocent. Mafia wouldn't take the chance to be killed off on a random. That's as close to a clue that I have right now. The move is not completely selfless - I would like to avoid me getting lynched by someone trying to save Arjos. Same thing can happen to you.

Would you like to do a vote switch with me to one of the 1 vote people? Riedquat, Ishmael, or Monty. You're already on edse so we can't bump him up to 3.

2 CountArach (Chaotix, Montmorency)
2 Greyblades (Arjos, Yarapolk)
2 Arjos (Greyblades, Ishmael)
2 Yarapolk (Lewwyn, Tuuvi)
2 SalmonSoil (issaikhaan, Riedquat)
1 Riedquat (edse)
1 Ishmael (LazyMcCrow)
1 Montmorency (Visorslash)
1 edse (CountArach)
I refused to go along with the plan. A few things that I find odd here:
1) He said that he would change his vote last night but if what Montmorency said is true then it was him who entered the time machine last night. Of course, multiple people may well have in which case this is inconclusive. I'd still like to know his actions.
2) There is no way to know that everyone with 2 votes is innocent. His reasoning is fair enough, though at the same time most scummy people would not change out of that 5 way tie situation (in which they only have a 20% chance of dying) for fear of looking scummy.
3) I don't like massive amounts of self-preservation. Our travels to any day are 1 use only and we can't squander that.

Furhter he hasn't really contributed anything in thread. I'd at least like to hear a little more from him. Vote: Yaropolk

[Montmorency]

Alright, but we can't honestly expect results from a D1 change, at least not anytime soon. Too many possibilities, and no case convincing enough to draw in the whole town.

Let me reiterate that if there are really 3 killers and one doctor, we will have only 4 shots (at best) of collectively altering the past. If two and no doctor, maybe 5.

[LazyMcCrow]

Eh, that would actually make him more suspicious considering he's already been working for T.I.M.E and has a connection with the organization, still, I would imagine getting one of the mafia would have incurred a more violent incident in the writeup... Unless that bit about "this death will be purely temporary" is alluding to how the Time agents are likely top resurrect a fallen comrade after this timewarp is done. Hmm... I kinda wish arjos turned out to be the doctorat least there'd be a decent chance he's on the up and up story wise and resurrecting him would be a no brainer.

OK, the more I try to figure out what is the best course of action here, the more quantum my brain gets as it threatens to ooze out of my ear. However - things that occur to me on the surface of Times' greasy pool:
1) Monty, I can see from your post about paranoia getting the better of you, but your self-preservation move smells fishy as hell - so fishy it probably isn't, but even so; your 'daisy' post already gave me pause for thought.
2) Count Arachs vote on Yaropolk seems entirely reasonable, but as I think it is in our best interests to keep things close, and also to apply some pressure - I must

3)vote: Greyblades Everything about that above post rings my bells buddy.

[SalmonSoil]

People are dying much quicker than I thought. I think that probably each mafia has a kill, and there are 2 of them. My write up sounds like I was killed by either a serial killer or a vigilante. The third write up for a failed kill could mean there is a doctor (Who, perhaps?), however it seems possible from the write up that the kill failed because the victim was time traveling. But this would mean that every night everyone should just time travel to protect themselves, so it probably isn't an actual rule.

I think we should try screw with the day one lynch and see if we can save me or Chaotix.

For now I'll save my ghost vote till the end of the day to see if I can create some sort of useful ripple effect.

[Visor]

...

If we go back and lynch SalmonSoil instead of Arjos on day one, then on night three, we stop him from being lynched on day one, what happens?

[Montmorency]

We can't - only one travel per day. Also, you claimed Doctor Who. what's uo with that?

[Visor]

I know that, but what are you trying to get at?

[Montmorency]

That we can't do that?

And are you really Who?

[Lewwyn]

What is our course of action? We could collectively lynch anyone on D1, and see if Chaotix or Salmon survive.

However, we can not pull that sort of trick indefinitely, as the multiple kills will within 3 or 4 days whittle us to the point that the Mafia will simply interfere with the attempt. Also, don't forget the 1-travel limit.


I think this is the crux. I don't think we should go back in time and start fiddling with stuff yet. This is a mafia game afterall. At its heart we should be looking for scum not continually second guessing ourselves. I think we should really try to figure it out and then plan our time travel based on suspicions instead of willynilly re-voting.

Speaking of looking for scum. That's a pretty interesting tidbit Arach. I think for me the part that is most interesting is that Yaropolk is so sure that all the people tied for 1st are not scum. If the town is moving forward on a plan like tying up votes at 2, don't you think that scum would try not to draw attention on the first day? There's nothing to fight about. Plus scum know that they can convince other people to go back and change their votes so they wouldn't be worried about being lynched day 1. If anything wouldn't you want to be lynched Day 1 so that when paranoid panicky villagers start second guessing themselves they bring you back to life? Seems Yaropolk is trying to do just that.

Vote: Yaropolk Talking would be good here.

BTW Lazy, Yaropolk voted for Greyblades on Day 1, what do you think of his attempt to switch off of Greyblades?


Also go back and look at the lynch write up. The namelist has been edited something funky by CB today. Any guess on what that is?

[Visor]

I'm still slightly confused on the whole timetravelling mechanic.

Well, we know who our confirmed innocents are at least.

So: Vote: Yaropolk

[Montmorency]

Also go back and look at the lynch write up. The namelist has been edited something funky by CB today. Any guess on what that is?


You mean the dead people?

[CountArach]

Also go back and look at the lynch write up. The namelist has been edited something funky by CB today. Any guess on what that is?
Just who voted for whom.

Visorslash - any thoughts on the game so far?

[Lewwyn]

People are dying much quicker than I thought. I think that probably each mafia has a kill, and there are 2 of them. My write up sounds like I was killed by either a serial killer or a vigilante. The third write up for a failed kill could mean there is a doctor (Who, perhaps?), however it seems possible from the write up that the kill failed because the victim was time traveling. But this would mean that every night everyone should just time travel to protect themselves, so it probably isn't an actual rule.


Are you suggesting that Monty was the intended target since we know he went back in time?


Visor, I think if we lynched Salmon on Day 1 and then went back night 3 and re-lynched arjos then Salmon would be rekilled on Night 1. AT least that's my take on it. Basically every order and vote anyone makes is always in force. if the person is alive the action is in force. If the action is on a dead person it sits there but if that person lives again then the dormant action then re-applies.

That's what I've gathered.

[Visor]

Just who voted for whom.

Visorslash - any thoughts on the game so far?

Honestly: My thoughts are this. We need CLEAR lynches. SO the scum cannot go back and revive a buddy.

I'm not too sure on whether we can use the time travel mechanic properly to help us win, so at the moment, I'm going to go with the first option and play it like a standard mafia game.

[Visor]

Sounds good. I'm happy to lynch Yaro today or Greyblades, either one.

[Lewwyn]

Well, we know who our confirmed innocents are at least.



You mean the dead people?

Well if we think about what Salmon's idea that we have a Vig then that's not necessarily true.

[Visor]

Well, our vig knows who the confirmed innocents are then.

[Montmorency]

Are you suggesting that Monty was the intended target since we know he went back in time?


Visor, I think if we lynched Salmon on Day 1 and then went back night 3 and re-lynched arjos then Salmon would be rekilled on Night 1. AT least that's my take on it. Basically every order and vote anyone makes is always in force. if the person is alive the action is in force. If the action is on a dead person it sits there but if that person lives again then the dormant action then re-applies.

That's what I've gathered.

Dead people formulate actions that take effect immediately when they return. If their revival somehow entails the revival of another, and that one directed any actions towards the first, they will take effect as well.

There's no point in considering the outcome of Visor's hypothetical, because by rule we can only visit a given phase once.

:bow:

[Captain Blackadder]

Not sure if this was made clear each person can only visit a phase once. So if Monty visited Day one last night then he cannot go back to that day all other players can unless they too already went back to day one.

[Greyblades]

Hrm, 3 kills/attempts last night, I think that settles whether or not arjos is scum, and if noone claims they did it, the time machine thing might also clear monty.

vote: Greyblades Everything about that above post rings my bells buddy.
Explain, please.

[CountArach]

I think we should start considering not just who we want to lynch but who we want to go back to lynch on day 1. The earlier we organise this the better.

[DaveShack]

Honestly: My thoughts are this. We need CLEAR lynches. SO the scum cannot go back and revive a buddy.


I think for me the part that is most interesting is that Yaropolk is so sure that all the people tied for 1st are not scum.

Those sound like good arguments to me. Vote: Yaropolk

[Chaotix]

Whatever you do, don't waste more than one night power trying to save us. You would have to get the killer dead-on, and that's something that usually takes a whole game to do.

Not only that, but no guarantee getting rid of one of them will even do anything, if there are multiple mafia allied to each other.

--

On a side note, I predict SalmonSoil is mafia. Or if he's not: the mafia are going to try to set it up so that when one of them is killed, it will cause the other one to be revived. This makes the revived one look innocent and practically assures them victory. Expect them to bring someone back who died very early so that when they bring him back for endgame there will be almost no way for a single person to past-lynch him along the timeline.

Potential Vote: SalmonSoil

I'm going to be placing these potential votes for dead people every phase in the hopes that, should you realize who the revived mafia is but be unable to cause his lynch in the future, you can find some way to make sure he never comes back to life.

[Yaropolk]

I think this is the crux. I don't think we should go back in time and start fiddling with stuff yet. This is a mafia game afterall. At its heart we should be looking for scum not continually second guessing ourselves. I think we should really try to figure it out and then plan our time travel based on suspicions instead of willynilly re-voting.

Speaking of looking for scum. That's a pretty interesting tidbit Arach. I think for me the part that is most interesting is that Yaropolk is so sure that all the people tied for 1st are not scum. If the town is moving forward on a plan like tying up votes at 2, don't you think that scum would try not to draw attention on the first day? There's nothing to fight about. Plus scum know that they can convince other people to go back and change their votes so they wouldn't be worried about being lynched day 1. If anything wouldn't you want to be lynched Day 1 so that when paranoid panicky villagers start second guessing themselves they bring you back to life? Seems Yaropolk is trying to do just that.

Vote: Yaropolk Talking would be good here.

BTW Lazy, Yaropolk voted for Greyblades on Day 1, what do you think of his attempt to switch off of Greyblades?


Also go back and look at the lynch write up. The namelist has been edited something funky by CB today. Any guess on what that is?


The post that CountArach posted about me is absolutely true, my reasoning is self evident from the post. I wanted to make the lynch concrete - so found another person with 2 votes on them and tried to convince them to make a 4 vote block on someone, to counter either one of us getting lynched retroactively by other night switchers. CA refused my proposal, and I did not proceed on my own because my plan required both of us to act. This is also the reason why Greyblades was not a viable lynch candidate (my vote was already on him).

Reasons why this post points to me not being mafia:

Scum would not have contacted/trusted a random stranger - instead would have coordinated behind the scenes with their partner.
If scum did reach out to random person, they would have killed off CA after the refusal to keep him quiet.


Second for the retroactive vote I propose we go back in time and lynch SalmonSoil. This move will waste a night kill for the mafia. If we do this every night, we'll cut their killing ability in half. Yes we could try switching votes around until we find what stops the killer, but consider the following:

Trying to stop the killer completely retroactively will have nowhere close to a 100% effectiveness on any given night.
Using that strategy, if we're wrong, the suspects we eliminate are also innocents.
If we are deciding as a group who to lynch retroactively, mafia can influence the decision both by advocating in public and privately vote switching.
By committing to retroactively lynch night kill victims we completely frustrate the mafia's public voice.



I am very suspicious of Lewwyn, and not just because he's voting for me. I highlighted the relevant points in his quote:

He claims I am "so sure that all people tied for first are not scum" - my exact quote is "I believe that people tied for 1st ... are most likely innocent. ... That's as close to a clue that I have right now." Lewwyn is clearly manipulating the truth here to make it sound like I am coming with a firm conviction based on non public information, where my post indicates I am doing an educated guess at best.
He also goes on to ask rhetorically, "[W]ouldn't you want to be lynched Day 1 so that when paranoid panicky villagers start second guessing themselves they bring you back to life?" The traditional mafia approach is stay active but not so active as to bring attention to yourself. Why risk it all on day 1 - for the lulz?


Vote:Lewwyn

[Riedquat]

You contacted CA only? :inquisitive: It doesn't look good for you at the moment...

All my thoughts about everything so far can be resumed in a big and long: ummmmmm..... :dizzy2: will vote later when I get time to read everything more carefully

[Yaropolk]

Yes I contact CA only, the tally for people with 2 votes was was:

2 CountArach (Chaotix, Montmorency)
2 Greyblades (Arjos, Yarapolk)
2 Arjos (Greyblades, Ishmael)
2 Yarapolk (Lewwyn, Tuuvi)
2 SalmonSoil (issaikhaan, Riedquat)

Arjos was dead, Greyblades already had my vote. The only 2 options were CA and Salmon Soil, and quite frankly I didn't want to expose myself to multiple strangers on N1.

[edse]

I was thinking the same as Chaotix.

Vote:SalmonSoil

[Arjos]

Potential Vote: Salmonsoil

Mainly to keep an option to Yaro's wagon and because I don't know much about the golfer...

[Riedquat]

On a side note, I predict SalmonSoil is mafia. Or if he's not: the mafia are going to try to set it up so that when one of them is killed, it will cause the other one to be revived. This makes the revived one look innocent and practically assures them victory. Expect them to bring someone back who died very early so that when they bring him back for endgame there will be almost no way for a single person to past-lynch him along the timeline.

Potential Vote: SalmonSoil

I'm going to be placing these potential votes for dead people every phase in the hopes that, should you realize who the revived mafia is but be unable to cause his lynch in the future, you can find some way to make sure he never comes back to life.

Had to read this post several times to completely digest it. If I understand all this mechanic correctly, to get Salmonsoil revived we should get his killer/partner lynched on day 1, right? Do you think mafia would kill one of their own so early in the game with all this confusing concepts in town's mind?


I was thinking the same as Chaotix.

Vote:SalmonSoil

I think the currently living ones should be focusing in the currently living ones, at least for a while, spreading to much could be dangerously ineffective if we start voting for the current deceased ones.
I got a headache now.
-----

[Montmorency]

On a side note, I predict SalmonSoil is mafia. Or if he's not: the mafia are going to try to set it up so that when one of them is killed, it will cause the other one to be revived. This makes the revived one look innocent and practically assures them victory. Expect them to bring someone back who died very early so that when they bring him back for endgame there will be almost no way for a single person to past-lynch him along the timeline.

That would be nearly impossible to accomplish deliberately...

Yaro, the problem with your plan is that Mafia can go back and change their kills.

All we would be accomplishing is the wasting of a collective transition.

My suspects, for no particular reasons: edse, ?

I get the feeling this game is going to end up being hilarious.


Potential Vote: Salmonsoil

Mainly to keep an option to Yaro's wagon and because I don't know much about the golfer...

Your vote only applies if you are brought back somehow - don't forget.

[Arjos]

Your vote only applies if you are brought back somehow - don't forget.

Duh...
Host asked for it, just respecting that...

[edse]

My suspects, for no particular reasons: edse, mr X ?

For pushing you to a mistake?

[Montmorency]

Duh...
Host asked for it, just respecting that...

Sure, sure, I just had to make sure.

[Ishmael]

Hang on, didn't we agree that we weren't going to bandwagon people? Especially seeing as now the mafia have one kill each (presumably), the original plan of revising the lynches and watching the results holds even better?

vote: SalmonSoil

[Montmorency]

It doesn't - there will at best be 5 opportunities for that sort of thing, or as few as 3.

Guys, there are really no hard and fast solutions to the Mafia Problemin this game.

These powers will not make it easy, or even necessarily easier, to dig out the Cops. In fact, this situation places most of the advantage with the Mafia.

The only way Town can win is, as usual, through blood, tears, recriminations, and a extra serving of Fortune.

[CountArach]

Hang on, didn't we agree that we weren't going to bandwagon people? Especially seeing as now the mafia have one kill each (presumably), the original plan of revising the lynches and watching the results holds even better?

vote: SalmonSoil
Indeed. At this point our best bet seems to be to keep Yaropolk and SalmonSoil either tired or at least close so that we can lynch either of them on a whim.

[Yaropolk]

Yaro, the problem with your plan is that Mafia can go back and change their kills.


How do you know that?

[Montmorency]

This is going to be a fairly standard kind of set up for a game with one major exception. Every single character will have the ability to go back to either a night or a day phase at any time in the game and change their action on that day or night. Thus being dead in this game is a purely temporary thing and you never know when you might come back.

Guys, you really need to scroll through the OP in a high-concept game like this.

Kills are night-actions. The rest follows naturally...

[Arjos]

Soon as we lynch a mafia, we can chage vote in D1 against him. Reviving all his victims and gaining more phases...

[Montmorency]

That is definitely a thing we should do!

But how do we know when we've lynched Mafia?

...

Guys? Hello? Am I not making sense here, or what?

[Riedquat]

That is definitely a thing we should do!

But how do we know when we've lynched Mafia?

...

Guys? Hello? Am I not making sense here, or what?

Lol... Stop a bit, I'm trying to make my mind about everything.

Temporal tally

Votes:
Yaropolk 4 (CountArach, Lewwyn, Visorslash, DaveShack)
Greyblades 1 (LazyMcCrow)
Lewwyn 1 (Yaropolk)
SalmonSoil 2 (edse, Ishmael)

Potential votes:
Salmonsoil 2 (Chaotix, Arjos)

[Riedquat]

Soon as we lynch a mafia, we can chage vote in D1 against him. Reviving all his victims and gaining more phases...

Then we should try to avoid going back to day 1... tell Monty that :laugh4:

I don't like voting for a dead dude, what happens if a distracted townie comes and place a vote ahead on SalmonSoil? :dizzy2:

Vote: SalmonSoil

[SalmonSoil]

Ok firstly, Chaotix your vote on me is wasted because the only way either of us can be alive is if the town lynches our killers on day one. Seeing as we were almost definitely killed by different people your vote on me can never take effect. Also people, we need a tie-vote between two living people. Also, I am probably one of the deadest people in this game. The only way I can be revived is if you successfully lynch my murderer on day one, or my murderer changes his day one night action. Don't waste your votes on me, put them somewhere where you can at least tie the vote or put pressure on someone who may be scum.

I think Arjos is almost certainly innocent. I am now almost completely certain there are two mafia and one serial killer / vigilante. If each one has a kill then anymore would be too ridiculous. So seeing as 3 murders (almost) occurred last night, Arjos is innocent. I say our best bet is to change our votes until we prevent a kill. Once we have done that, unless the situation is more convoluted than a single lynch change and we can't be certain of the victims guilt, several of us go back and wagon that player out of the mafias reach.

My understanding of time travel in this game at the moment is that everyone is allowed to go back to each specific day and night phase once, but they are allowed to time travel as much as they want. (So I could travel to day 1, 2 and 3, but if I did I couldn't return to them again?). Also can dead players submit time travel actions? For instance could I place an order to go back to day one and change my vote tonight, and this would take effect if my death was prevented?

[Yaropolk]

Guys, you really need to scroll through the OP in a high-concept game like this.

Kills are night-actions. The rest follows naturally...

That would make no sense from a mechanics point of view - the mafia could completely avoid the doctor and vice versa.

[Riedquat]

Ok firstly, Chaotix your vote on me is wasted because the only way either of us can be alive is if the town lynches our killers on day one.

That perhaps is not correct, I thought the same at first but there is another possibility, your possible mafia partner killed you last night but tomorrow he travel back in time and instead of killing you he chose somebody else, if that is possible you will be revived.

[Lewwyn]

I think Arjos is almost certainly innocent. I am now almost completely certain there are two mafia and one serial killer / vigilante. If each one has a kill then anymore would be too ridiculous. So seeing as 3 murders (almost) occurred last night, Arjos is innocent. I say our best bet is to change our votes until we prevent a kill. Once we have done that, unless the situation is more convoluted than a single lynch change and we can't be certain of the victims guilt, several of us go back and wagon that player out of the mafias reach.


I have to agree with this. I think Arjos is likely innocent based on the kills last night. I don't think there'd be more than 3 kills in this game.

I actually find all this voting for SalmonSoil to be a bit weird. I mean we've even got the dead voting for the dead. I think we're wasting votes though this early in the game. We need to be putting pressure on more people who are alive beyond just Yaropolk. It also seems to me that voting for a dead person is a great place for mafia to hide their vote. Later on they don't have to explain it and they don't have to justify. We lose valuable information that we normally would get from lynches.

[Lewwyn]

Things scum would say:



Reasons why this post points to me not being mafia:

Scum would not have contacted/trusted a random stranger - instead would have coordinated behind the scenes with their partner.
If scum did reach out to random person, they would have killed off CA after the refusal to keep him quiet.


Scum would definitely reach out and then say "but scum would never do that".



Second for the retroactive vote I propose we go back in time and lynch SalmonSoil. This move will waste a night kill for the mafia. If we do this every night, we'll cut their killing ability in half. Yes we could try switching votes around until we find what stops the killer, but consider the following:

Trying to stop the killer completely retroactively will have nowhere close to a 100% effectiveness on any given night.
Using that strategy, if we're wrong, the suspects we eliminate are also innocents.
If we are deciding as a group who to lynch retroactively, mafia can influence the decision both by advocating in public and privately vote switching.
By committing to retroactively lynch night kill victims we completely frustrate the mafia's public voice.


So we go back in time to lynch people who are killed and stop lynching possible killers? Also this doesn't take into account the possibility that there is an SK or Vig. And doesn't this make people who are going to die anyway deader? and doesn't this mean if in fact Monty is correct that killers can switch their kills that we will be actually giving killers more kills by retroactively lynching their kills and freeing them up to kill someone else?

[CountArach]

I actually find all this voting for SalmonSoil to be a bit weird. I mean we've even got the dead voting for the dead. I think we're wasting votes though this early in the game. We need to be putting pressure on more people who are alive beyond just Yaropolk. It also seems to me that voting for a dead person is a great place for mafia to hide their vote. Later on they don't have to explain it and they don't have to justify. We lose valuable information that we normally would get from lynches.
Unvote, Vote: Lewwyn

Who else would you suggest?

[CountArach]

Given Lewwyn's previous post calling for more pressure to be put on people other than Yaropolk and then posting something that only puts pressure on Yaropolk, I'm really thinking that Lewwyn seems scummy.

Oh and Yaropolk PMed me again asking me to stop bandwaggoning him.

[DaveShack]

That's an excellent point.

Unvote; Vote: Lewwyn

[LazyMcCrow]

Given Lewwyn's previous post calling for more pressure to be put on people other than Yaropolk and then posting something that only puts pressure on Yaropolk, I'm really thinking that Lewwyn seems scummy.

Oh and Yaropolk PMed me again asking me to stop bandwaggoning him.

I love the way you keep translating for your 'shy friend'. OK I'm going to have to read the thread again. And Has anyone written anything idiot-proof yet about why voting for dead people makes sense?

[Lewwyn]

Given Lewwyn's previous post calling for more pressure to be put on people other than Yaropolk and then posting something that only puts pressure on Yaropolk, I'm really thinking that Lewwyn seems scummy.

Oh and Yaropolk PMed me again asking me to stop bandwaggoning him.

I didn't have any time to do more because I had to run to work. And I was only responding to Yaropolk in the first place. So no its not an excellent point.

And before you start saying why didn't you write anything about anyone else, I'm still working I just popped in during a break.

[Lewwyn]

Hang on, didn't we agree that we weren't going to bandwagon people? Especially seeing as now the mafia have one kill each (presumably), the original plan of revising the lynches and watching the results holds even better?

vote: SalmonSoil


This is hilarious to me. Ishmael talks about not bandwagoning and then puts a vote on a dead guy. If you wanted not to bandwagon shouldn't you put a vote on someone who is alive to counteract the wagon on Yaropolk? I find this highly suspicious. As I said before I think parking your vote on Salmonsoil is a great place for scum, especially when you don't have to explain anything.


Indeed. At this point our best bet seems to be to keep Yaropolk and SalmonSoil either tired or at least close so that we can lynch either of them on a whim.

WHAT? Are you even trying? SalmonSoil is dead for now. We can't just lynch either on a whim. He's already dead. And there's a large probability that he will continue to be dead since it will require lynching his murderer on the first day. This is so counter logical and a waste. If we keep yaropolk and Salmonsoil tied, Yaro hangs and we don't really ever get someone we can switch the lynch off onto. It's mind boggling to me that you see it this way. Salmon is DEAD he can't be lynched today unless he comes back to life.

Everyone's gettign too caught up in the past and future. What about the present? I'm comfortable with my vote on Yaropolk. But I would also be comfortable switching to Ishmael at this point. I think CA is just not thinking right, and I think that makes him less scummy. But Ishmael is deliberately avoiding.

Break went longer than I thought.

[Ishmael]

SalmonSoil is dead?! I should probably double check the write-ups before voting in the future....

To address Montmorency's point, as to when we know we've caught scum - if we lynch them in the present, we don't. If, however, we lynch somebody in the past, and various people that were nightkilled come back to life, then it's pretty evident what's happened. And as somebody pointed out above, that means we can go back and lycnh them D1, which will buy us some time.

unvote, vote: Yarapolk

I hope the tally is correct, I just updated the one in Riedquat's post but I think I got everything since then.

Yaropolk 3 (Lewwyn, Visorslash, Ishmael)
Greyblades 1 (LazyMcCrow)
Lewwyn 3 (Yaropolk, CountArach, DaveShack)
SalmonSoil 2 (edse, Riedquat)

Potential votes:
Salmonsoil 2 (Chaotix, Arjos)[/QUOTE]

[Ishmael]

This is hilarious to me. Ishmael talks about not bandwagoning and then puts a vote on a dead guy. If you wanted not to bandwagon shouldn't you put a vote on someone who is alive to counteract the wagon on Yaropolk? I find this highly suspicious. As I said before I think parking your vote on Salmonsoil is a great place for scum, especially when you don't have to explain anything.

Bit of a mistake on my part - I skimmed the thread this morning before work, saw Yarapolk was being bandwagoned and so put my vote on the person who seemed to have the most votes after him. As I say, I wasn't aware he was dead at the time.

[CountArach]

WHAT? Are you even trying? SalmonSoil is dead for now. We can't just lynch either on a whim. He's already dead. And there's a large probability that he will continue to be dead since it will require lynching his murderer on the first day. This is so counter logical and a waste. If we keep yaropolk and Salmonsoil tied, Yaro hangs and we don't really ever get someone we can switch the lynch off onto. It's mind boggling to me that you see it this way. Salmon is DEAD he can't be lynched today unless he comes back to life.

Everyone's gettign too caught up in the past and future. What about the present? I'm comfortable with my vote on Yaropolk. But I would also be comfortable switching to Ishmael at this point. I think CA is just not thinking right, and I think that makes him less scummy. But Ishmael is deliberately avoiding.

Break went longer than I thought.
Overreacting post. Very scummy.

But yes I missed that SalmonSoil is dead. With everyone voting for him I kind of assumed he was alive. This game confuses me.

[LazyMcCrow]

Honestly: My thoughts are this. We need CLEAR lynches. SO the scum cannot go back and revive a buddy.

I'm not too sure on whether we can use the time travel mechanic properly to help us win, so at the moment, I'm going to go with the first option and play it like a standard mafia game.

That makes much more sense than the keeping it close school of thought.


Hrm, 3 kills/attempts last night, I think that settles whether or not arjos is scum, and if noone claims they did it, the time machine thing might also clear monty.

Explain, please.

To explain my original vote on you: You sounded very knowledgeavle in your initial post - mention of 'THE doctor' was what initially rang the alarm. However there are far more jangley posts right now
unvote: Greyblades


Indeed. At this point our best bet seems to be to keep Yaropolk and SalmonSoil either tired or at least close so that we can lynch either of them on a whim.

Lewwyn picked you up on this, and I'm hitting 'reply quote button' to everything that stands out on this read through. Are you SURE about that? because Visorslashs counter-argument for clear lynches seems to make more sense.


That perhaps is not correct, I thought the same at first but there is another possibility, your possible mafia partner killed you last night but tomorrow he travel back in time and instead of killing you he chose somebody else, if that is possible you will be revived.

That is ridiculous. Are you joking? vote: Riedquat

[CountArach]

Lewwyn picked you up on this, and I'm hitting 'reply quote button' to everything that stands out on this read through. Are you SURE about that? because Visorslashs counter-argument for clear lynches seems to make more sense.
Here is what I believe we can surmise, or at least can make educated guesses about based on what we know:
There are 2 mafia.
They each have 1 night action.
Killing takes a night action
Changing a vote takes a night action

ERGO - To change a vote they would have to foresake their kill. So if we lynch someone who is scum then they will lose their night action and their buddy will have to revive them, which means the revived person gets their night action, which would be presumably a kill. So they would be reduced to one kill for a night and we would still know that one of them was dead. We could probably take a pretty good guess as to who it was based on this, and if someone is revived in this case, then we can just re-lynch them either in that day phase or (preferably) by going back in time and changing that day's vote again.

[LazyMcCrow]

Oh - OK, so you're saying that it makes sense to keep the vote close because we can more easily revive if needed - and mafia reviving scum-buddy is obvious anyway? That also makes sense!

[CountArach]

Okay I think that we can be almost certain that arjos is innocent (due to the full 3 kills and based on his character name/description), so I don't see why we shouldn't lynch someone else with our night actions on day one and have arjos revived. In fact we could lynch someone today and kill Yaropolk off on day 1.

[Montmorency]

To address Montmorency's point, as to when we know we've caught scum - if we lynch them in the present, we don't. If, however, we lynch somebody in the past, and various people that were nightkilled come back to life, then it's pretty evident what's happened. And as somebody pointed out above, that means we can go back and lycnh them D1, which will buy us some time.

Nope.

We can visit a phase once. We have to all agree on one choice. The odds of us magically picking the right guy to lynch in the past are rather low.

If we go back to the previous day each night, we will prevent only prevent a kill for that very night, and no one will be revived. If we wait a while until we're sure about a killer - as if town certitude has ever consistently translated into result - we lose at least one opportunity , and the game continues as normal until we are outnumbered anyway.

*We really will have only 3 or 4 opportunities to effectively cooperate, before there are too few.
*We could easily go back and lynch the vig/SK(if the indicator in the writeup is taken at face value) rather than scum; desirable, you ask? Perhaps, but the SK is much likelier to kill a Cop than we are.

The point here: a strategy relying on the undoing of previous lynches is like a game of Russian Roulette where every chamber but one has a bullet in it.


ERGO - To change a vote they would have to foresake their kill. So if we lynch someone who is scum then they will lose their night action and their buddy will have to revive them, which means the revived person gets their night action, which would be presumably a kill. So they would be reduced to one kill for a night and we would still know that one of them was dead. We could probably take a pretty good guess as to who it was based on this, and if someone is revived in this case, then we can just re-lynch them either in that day phase or (preferably) by going back in time and changing that day's vote again.

Or Mafia could just change a vote while both are alive. Boy, wouldn't that throw us off! Best case, we spend two phases lynching the same guy - who is scum.

[CountArach]

Montmorency what would you suggest as the alternative? We have an ability that could, if used correctly, allow a second lynch, so not utilising it seems rather daft.

[Montmorency]

Oh, look: if Arjos looks innocent, revive him.

Just don't base a strategy on the expectation that whomever we lynch today or yesterday will be Mafia.

[atheotes]

Wow...endless possibilities.
Keeping the lynch options close enough is the only thing we can all agree upon.
Since Arjos has three votes on him now including Monty's, we need to have one of Ishamel or Greyblades to switch their vote from Arjos to one other with 2 votes.
Also we should keep hunting for scum like a normal mafia game.

Vote: LazyMccrow - something is off about your behavior.

[Ishmael]

We can visit a phase once. We have to all agree on one choice. The odds of us magically picking the right guy to lynch in the past are rather low.


The way I see it, if we change a lynch in the past, the odds that we get mafia with that are roughly the same as that of the first lynch. So that evens out on average. However, if we lynch mafia in the first instance we may not necessarily know, as the mafia may be using a night action to go back in time which would explain the reduced kills. If, however, we lynch mafia with the altered lynch, then the pattern of kills will clearly change, and so we will be able to confidently go back and lynch them on day 1.

On a semi-related note, is it safe to assume that mafia weren't killed in a particular lynch if the the number of kills remain at three, and nobody comes back to life from before then that round?

[Montmorency]

Clarification: If we lynch someone today, and come back to now, tonight, and lynch Mafia, it will not prevent any of the N1 deaths. It will prevent the mafioso from doing a N2 kill, but, as you acknowledge, that could be him changing a vote. Really, the only way to tell anything is to examine the global pattern on D4 or 5. And by then, town won't be able to organize any large-scale transitions. Get it?

[Ishmael]

Clarification: If we lynch someone today, and come back to now, tonight, and lynch Mafia, it will not prevent any of the N1 deaths. It will prevent the mafioso from doing a N2 kill, but, as you acknowledge, that could be him changing a vote. Really, the only way to tell anything is to examine the global pattern on D4 or 5. And by then, town won't be able to organize any large-scale transitions. Get it?

But there's nothing to stop us from changing the D1 lynch and seeing if that prevents any kills, or changing today's lynch the night after this (we could even change the D1 lynch again then, if we're organised). It's got to be better than nothing.

[Montmorency]

Not much. If we go back to D1 tonight, it should be to rescue Arjos, not out of any belief that we'll definitely get a mafioso.

[atheotes]

we won't definitely get a mafioso, but there is a chance that we could. the way i see it we havent got anything to lose.
I wish Monty was killed :laugh4:...that way we could possibly clear someone from suspicion when we go back and lynch for D1.

[Montmorency]

Guys, ok: who are you going to lynch instead of Arjos?

An important point to clear up if there's going to be any cooperation here.

And you wonder why I'm so pessimistic...

[CountArach]

Guys, ok: who are you going to lynch instead of Arjos?

An important point to clear up if there's going to be any cooperation here.

And you wonder why I'm so pessimistic...
I already flagged Yaropolk as a possibility given that he already has 2 votes on the day which would make it harder for anyone to change votes to protect him.

[atheotes]

I am ok with it being Yaropolk.
But it must be Ishmael or Greyblades to change the vote

[atheotes]

Guys, ok: who are you going to lynch instead of Arjos?

An important point to clear up if there's going to be any cooperation here.

And you wonder why I'm so pessimistic...

Can you remind me as to why you TTed (TimeTravelled) to D1 and changed your vote to Arjos?

[Ishmael]

Fine by me. I'll go with what the town decides. Ideally, both of us would change, to be certain.

[atheotes]

Fine by me. I'll go with what the town decides. Ideally, both of us would change, to be certain.

Why both? one should be enough?

[Montmorency]

Yaro, huh? Two individuals agree. However,


But it must be Ishmael or Greyblades to change the vote


is why it will fail. The buck stops somewhere.


Can you remind me as to why you TTed (TimeTravelled) to D1 and changed your vote to Arjos?

I interpreted edse's comment as a threat.

[CountArach]

I am ok with it being Yaropolk.
But it must be Ishmael or Greyblades to change the vote
We have to go all-out in this. All good townies should be vote changing as that reduces the chance that the mafia will be able to counter our voting.

[atheotes]

But it must be Ishmael or Greyblades to change the vote

is why it will fail. The buck stops somewhere.


Why do you think it will fail?

[Ishmael]

We have to go all-out in this. All good townies should be vote changing as that reduces the chance that the mafia will be able to counter our voting.

But on the other hand, we want to leave the possibility open that we can change the vote again another night, if necessary (if we do catch scum, we want to lynch them D1). I'd say we should keep it small-scale this round, and get everybody to change if we have identified scum with a high degree of confidence. If the mafia wants to stop us, then so be it - they'll waste a night, and possibly tip their hand.

[CountArach]

But on the other hand, we want to leave the possibility open that we can change the vote again another night, if necessary (if we do catch scum, we want to lynch them D1). I'd say we should keep it small-scale this round, and get everybody to change if we have identified scum with a high degree of confidence. If the mafia wants to stop us, then so be it - they'll waste a night, and possibly tip their hand.
I understand that but it is going to become increasingly difficult to organise these things as town numbers dwindle if we have to start splitting our vote changing over multiple days in one night. That is why I was advocating just two/three people being tied at the start.

[Montmorency]

But on the other hand, we want to leave the possibility open that we can change the vote again another night, if necessary (if we do catch scum, we want to lynch them D1).
You keep making this mistake.

There will not be very many townies left on D4 or 5. Those days will be our last chance to alter the past. And what's to say some or most of the living townies won't have useed their D1 opportunity up already?

:no:

[Ishmael]

You keep making this mistake.

There will not be very many townies left on D4 or 5. Those days will be our last chance to alter the past. And what's to say some or most of the living townies won't have useed their D1 opportunity up already?

:no:

Which is why I'm saying not everybody should try to change things from D1, and why I've always advocated keeping the vote close so that a minimum number of people is necessary for any change.

[atheotes]

Agree with Ishmael on this. For D1 lynch we only need a maximum of 2 vote changes tonight if it includes atleast one of Arjos' voters.

[atheotes]

You keep making this mistake.

There will not be very many townies left on D4 or 5. Those days will be our last chance to alter the past. And what's to say some or most of the living townies won't have useed their D1 opportunity up already?

:no:

What's to say we wont have nailed a mafia or 2 by D4 or D5?
If you have a better plan please do let us know.

if we do lynch Yaropolk and find that the N1 dead havent come back we will go and lynch someone else on N3 and bring back Yaropolk.

[Montmorency]

Clarification: what if scum leave the neutralized travelers alive, deliberately?

[CountArach]

Agree with Ishmael on this. For D1 lynch we only need a maximum of 2 vote changes tonight if it includes atleast one of Arjos' voters.
Alright. I still disagree on the theory but I'm willing to change my vote on day 1 to Yaropolk. If Ishmael does as well then everyone else can save their abilities.

If we had more times I'd be tempted to create lynch mobs, where we send out a couple of people to change their votes on earlier days to see if people go through with it or not without affecting hte number of kills in the present. But for that to be effective we would need 6 or 7 days in order to cross-check results.

[Ishmael]

Sounds good to me. I'll take my vote off Yarapolk then, so that we don't waste today's lynch.

unvote

[Montmorency]

The more I think about it, the better Vote: No Lynch looks.

[Lewwyn]

Unvote: Vote: Riedquat



I think the currently living ones should be focusing in the currently living ones, at least for a while, spreading to much could be dangerously ineffective if we start voting for the current deceased ones.
I got a headache now.
-----

So first you say let's avoid voting for dead people.


Then we should try to avoid going back to day 1... tell Monty that :laugh4:

I don't like voting for a dead dude, what happens if a distracted townie comes and place a vote ahead on SalmonSoil? :dizzy2:

Vote: SalmonSoil

Then you say "I don't like voting for a dead dude", but then you go ahead and vote for said dead dude. Even after the post earlier too about how its a waste.


That perhaps is not correct, I thought the same at first but there is another possibility, your possible mafia partner killed you last night but tomorrow he travel back in time and instead of killing you he chose somebody else, if that is possible you will be revived.

Here you argue that Chaotix is not wasting his potential vote even though the scenario you state is incredibly unlikely. It sounds as though you are arguing that Chaotix should continue to vote for a dead guy even though this scenario is unlikely. Why? If you are scum it makes sense to have as many wasted votes as possible.


Overall you keep saying one thing but you are doing the opposite. You argue one way and then try to justify someone else doing the same thing. So where do you stand?

[Lewwyn]

snip
Overreacting post. Very scummy.


You've obviously never played with me. :laugh4:

[Ishmael]

The more I think about it, the better Vote: No Lynch looks.

I don't know about a no lynch, but having thought it through I agree that the more time the town has the better, provided we also have lynches to play with when we go back in time. Thus, I'm going to vote for Yarapolk again, as it saves us one death whilst still allowing us to manipulate this lynch later.

EDIT: That is, it gives a 50% chance of saving one death, unless somebody else votes for Yarapolk today.

[Ishmael]

Whoops, forgot to actually vote.

vote: Yarapolk

[Lewwyn]

Oh and I am very cool with the Yaropolk lynch on D1. I think is a good plan even if that puts me top of the block today.

[Captain Blackadder]

Round Over prepare for write up

[CountArach]

You've obviously never played with me. :laugh4:
Haha no and that's where my year long hiatus gets to me.

Whoops, forgot to actually vote.

vote: Yarapolk
That's the plan for tonight, but oh well.

[Lewwyn]

So you're gonna facepalm when my character name is revealed. Because I'm pretty obviously innocent.

[Ishmael]

That's the plan for tonight, but oh well.

See my post above (I'm pretty sure I explained that in one of them. It's hard to keep track)

[edse]

About the vote change of day one. It's best if one of Ishmael or Greyblades change. If one of them change to Yaropolk he will be alone in the lead with 3 votes. this is the cleanest option and we can more clearly see if someone is interfering with this, say someone else time travels at night and the outcome is different.

[CountArach]

No worries. I shall remain inactive tonight then.

[atheotes]

Alright. I still disagree on the theory but I'm willing to change my vote on day 1 to Yaropolk. If Ishmael does as well then everyone else can save their abilities.



No CA. You should not change your vote. Let Ishmael alone change his.


Whoops, forgot to actually vote.

vote: Yarapolk

You should have voted for someone else...

[Lewwyn]

No worries. I shall remain inactive tonight then.

Actually, you should switch your vote for today from me to riedquat after the write-up. If you're a townie I suppose.

[CountArach]

I don't know about a no lynch, but having thought it through I agree that the more time the town has the better, provided we also have lynches to play with when we go back in time. Thus, I'm going to vote for Yarapolk again, as it saves us one death whilst still allowing us to manipulate this lynch later.

EDIT: That is, it gives a 50% chance of saving one death, unless somebody else votes for Yarapolk today.
actually the more I think about it the more reason we have to lynch someone on the first day. Because it will bring back Arjos, a confirmed innocent and thus we don't lose time but we do gain a small chance of lynching scum.

[Captain Blackadder]

As day ends at T.I.M.E Headquarters Inspector Spacetime tallies up the votes he is happy to see that this time there is no tie for him to decide in this lynch it is clear cut who it is that will die this day. Kyle Reese (Lewwyn) is to be removed from the time stream this day. Kyle is dragged up before Inspector Spacetime. This lynch is mealy to determine what effect your disappearance may have on the future of the timestream. Worry not Kyle the result today was close there is still plenty of time for this result to be changed and for you to be brought back alive and well. Whilst you were not an inventor of a time machine like many of us here you were brave and noble and would have sacrificed your own life to protect humanity had you not being taken by the time police. I only ask that you do this one more time. With these words Kyle nods and fads out as he is removed from the time stream.

Lewwyn (Kyle Reese) is lynched
Night Two Begins ends in 24 hours

Tally

Yaropolk Visorslash, Ishmael
Lewwyn Count Arach, Daveshack,Yaropolk 3 Votes Lynched
SalmonSoil Redquiat, Edse
LazyMcCrow Atheotoes
Redquiat Lewwyn, Edse

Montmorency
Visorslash
CountArach
Lewwyn
Daveshack
Chaotix
Atheothos
Yaropolk
Arjos
Reidquat
Salmonsoil
Ishmael
LazyMcCrow
Edse
Tuuvi
Greyblades
Khann

No Vote Khann, Greyblades, Tuuvi

[Ishmael]

To clarify: I (re)voted for Yarapolk as I was hoping that he will be lynched today as well as D1, thus saving us a lynch and buying the town some more time. Normally I'd be against 'wasting' a lynch like this as it's the only means for the town to catch scum, but in this case it isn't - we can also manipulate past lynches, and this gives us more time to do that, whilst still allowing us to change today's lynch later if we so desire.

EDIT: Just to confirm, I will still be changing my D1 vote to Yarapolk.

[atheotes]

Actually, you should switch your vote for today from me to riedquat after the write-up. If you're a townie I suppose.

Why tonight?

[Lewwyn]

Why tonight?

Because I don't like being dead. And I want to see if Riedquat is as scummy as I think he is.

[CountArach]

Okay what we have learned from that post by CB is that role names are important as otherwise he would not have mentioned it.

So plan for tonight?

[Ishmael]

Okay what we have learned from that post by CB is that role names are important as otherwise he would not have mentioned it.

So plan for tonight?

I wouldn't assume that - CB has already said there will 'obviously' be no role reveals, so I doubt he'd give it away indirectly. I'd assume the mafia have either cover roles or an innocent sounding role name. As to tonight, my orders are sent in - vote changed from Arjos to Yarapolk.

[Yaropolk]

Second for the retroactive vote I propose we go back in time and lynch SalmonSoil. This move will waste a night kill for the mafia. If we do this every night, we'll cut their killing ability in half. Yes we could try switching votes around until we find what stops the killer, but consider the following:

Trying to stop the killer completely retroactively will have nowhere close to a 100% effectiveness on any given night.
Using that strategy, if we're wrong, the suspects we eliminate are also innocents.
If we are deciding as a group who to lynch retroactively, mafia can influence the decision both by advocating in public and privately vote switching.
By committing to retroactively lynch night kill victims we completely frustrate the mafia's public voice.



Hopefully I can get in front of this 'lets lynchmob Yaro' thing again. Re-read my proposal for night actions. Only a single person has commented on it (Lewwyn). This is powerful - this is stripping mafia of their randomness and influence. This is what we should be doing.



So we go back in time to lynch people who are killed and stop lynching possible killers? Also this doesn't take into account the possibility that there is an SK or Vig. And doesn't this make people who are going to die anyway deader? and doesn't this mean if in fact Monty is correct that killers can switch their kills that we will be actually giving killers more kills by retroactively lynching their kills and freeing them up to kill someone else?

If Monty is correct, killers would have to waste a night action (foresaking a kill tonight) to fix last night's kill

[Lewwyn]

If Monty is correct, killers would have to waste a night action (foresaking a kill tonight) to fix last night's kill

I mean... that's complete speculation. Unless you already know something we don't.

[edse]

If Monty is correct, killers would have to waste a night action (foresaking a kill tonight) to fix last night's kill

I mean... that's complete speculation. Unless you already know something we don't.

Role PM completed sending out now.

A few Notes

To make things somewhat simpler for me my version of time travel will be that whilst you are in the past time keeps on moving in the present. Thus if you choose to go back in time during a night phase you can not do any other action that night.

Time Paradox. If a time paradox occurs which I don't think it will both parties involved will be killed by T.I.M.E since their powers extend to ensuring no paradox's may occur.

Finally the time machines will also prevent multiple time travel versions of yourself from being in the same spot. Like A Sound of Thunder. Thus you can only go to a given day or Night Once.

If anyone has any questions about the Time Travel Mechanic ask away I will give as much away as I can.

There it is.

[atheotes]

Because I don't like being dead. And I want to see if Riedquat is as scummy as I think he is.

You will have to wait. We want to see if you are as scummy as you sounded :yes:


I wouldn't assume that - CB has already said there will 'obviously' be no role reveals, so I doubt he'd give it away indirectly. I'd assume the mafia have either cover roles or an innocent sounding role name. As to tonight, my orders are sent in - vote changed from Arjos to Yarapolk.

CB has also said we can reveal our role name if we want. From the N1 writeup it looked like one of the killers were looking for a specific person. I am not sure what significance any of these have.

[Riedquat]

So first you say let's avoid voting for dead people.



Then you say "I don't like voting for a dead dude", but then you go ahead and vote for said dead dude. Even after the post earlier too about how its a waste.

Yes, because after reading it all again I finally understood what Chaotix and others were pointing to, it is so difficult to see? I explained it to SalmonSoil, it was not my theory! I voted for him stating my very displeasure doing so.

Interesting you and others go and vote for me but not for the people casting votes over the dead with no explanation whatsoever...

I'm sorry I came late to change my vote... oh wait! I have a time-machine! :yes:

[Lewwyn]

You will have to wait. We want to see if you are as scummy as you sounded :yes:

Wasn't scummy at all.


CB has also said we can reveal our role name if we want. From the N1 writeup it looked like one of the killers were looking for a specific person. I am not sure what significance any of these have.

Do you even know who Kyle Reese is? I'm the guy they sent back to kill the Terminator and save Sarah Connor in the first movie. I'm betting that one of the killers is a Terminator looking for John Connor or Sarah Connor.

[Arjos]

Imo with name reveal at lynch/death, we can figure out who might be mafia...
So I wouldn't change votes bindly: mafia could unvote for me in D1 or we could lynch another innocent...

As for votes on dead people being "wasted", that's not true, since we can change votes...
Bottom line: lynches could be used as scans, provided there's enough co-op to unvote during the night...

[Lewwyn]

As for votes on dead people being "wasted", that's not true, since we can change votes...
Bottom line: lynches could be used as scans, provided there's enough co-op to unvote during the night...

Unless you're dead. This is the problem I have with it it you don't switch the lynch vote the night directly after lynch then you get killed in the night then you can't go back and change your vote the following night unless the vote is changed by someone else to lynch the scum who killed you, and if you're dead you don't have as many people to make that happen.

And jeez, mafia will just put in a kill order on me tonight that will go in effect as soon as I get unlynched so I'm dead anyway. I mean my role is so innocent that I'm a huge target anyway.

Whatever, don't think the town will win this.

[Greyblades]

You sounded very knowledgeavle in your initial post - mention of 'THE doctor' was what initially rang the alarm.

I... you took that to mean I knew about a doctor/protector role? I meant that story wise the doctor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_%28Doctor_Who%29) would be very unlikely to help a time police. It seemed a safe assumption that he would show up in a time travel themed game.

Edit: Sorry I missed the end of round, I was asleep, anyway I'm going to revive arjos by changeing my vote to yarpolk.

The first day's vote is the most valuable as if we get a mafia on that day we will be able to undo several night kills as well, therefore it might be a good idea that everyone save thier first day time jumps for a confirmed mafa and not waste thier jumps bandwagoning the flavour of the day.

[Arjos]

And jeez, mafia will just put in a kill order on me tonight that will go in effect as soon as I get unlynched so I'm dead anyway.

And the mafia would kinda waste a kill...
Anyway if you vote to stay alive, instead of targeting scum, in my book you are as dangerous as the mafia...

As for tactics, we could place one vote on each player in D3, so that the following night only one person has to unvote, then two and so on, 'til you see deads coming back to life...

While for my revival, I advise against it: if we play it right we can bring back few victims, since I was the D1 lynch...
Instead try different lynches from D3 or D2 onwards...

[Lewwyn]

And the mafia would kinda waste a kill...
Anyway if you vote to stay alive, instead of targeting scum, in my book you are as dangerous as the mafia...

Uh, you realize that I could have kept my vote on Yaropolk and possibly survived the lynch? I essentially lynched myself, I didn't vote to stay alive. Don't accuse me of being so destructive because I play hard for whichever side I'm on. I'm so pissed that you would question my integrity like that.

[Arjos]

I was answering generically to your statement about being dead or alive, not your (Lewwyn's) conduct...

As far as I can tell, this round has been the usual intra-town bickering...

[atheotes]

I... you took that to mean I knew about a doctor/protector role? I meant that story wise the doctor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_%28Doctor_Who%29) would be very unlikely to help a time police. It seemed a safe assumption that he would show up in a time travel themed game.

Edit: Sorry I missed the end of round, I was asleep, anyway I'm going to revive arjos by changeing my vote to yarpolk.

The first day's vote is the most valuable as if we get a mafia on that day we will be able to undo several night kills as well, therefore it might be a good idea that everyone save thier first day time jumps for a confirmed mafa and not waste thier jumps bandwagoning the flavour of the day.

you should not waste you D1 time travel. there is no need for you switch your vote.

[Montmorency]

I'm am seeing a lot of nonsensical or plain false speculation again.

Tell you what, guys: I'm not going to "correct" any "mistakes" again unless they indicate a planned course of action in the immediate-term.

...

Or at least until I can't take it anymore. :shame:

[Greyblades]

you should not waste you D1 time travel. there is no need for you switch your vote.

How would gaining a confirmed townie and a second shot at getting a mafioso be a waste?