Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

Don't know anything about Zelezny, but perhaps more notable is that Trump confirms (https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/golan-heights-whats-stake-trumps-recognition) "Finders Keepers" doctrine for clay:
1. I don't know anything about Zelezny either. Do you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Zelazny?
2. And this bears on Ukranian election because...



One thing which Ukraine could theoretically do is recognise the de facto independence of the rebel areas and once this is done they would be free to join NATO.

Ukraine would thereby yield territory in exchange for stability and a permanent check on Russian expansion.


De facto Ukraine recognizes that it can't control some of its territory yet it doesn't make NATO more amenable. I believe you meant de jure?

But anyway, it is inveterately naive to believe that Ukraine will be accepted to NATO after relinquishing the claim on the "rebel areas" (for once because there is the Crimean issue as well - or do you suggest relinquishing that too?) or that it will get any sort of stability or that Russian expansion will be checked. While the current Russian regime is at power Ukraine will get neither of those.

[Gilrandir]

The election campaign gets weirder.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/06/europe/ukraine-elections-drug-test-intl/index.html?utm_source=twCNN&utm_content=2019-04-06T15%3A17%3A04&utm_term=image&utm_medium=social

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

De facto Ukraine recognizes that it can't control some of its territory yet it doesn't make NATO more amenable. I believe you meant de jure?

But anyway, it is inveterately naive to believe that Ukraine will be accepted to NATO after relinquishing the claim on the "rebel areas" (for once because there is the Crimean issue as well - or do you suggest relinquishing that too?) or that it will get any sort of stability or that Russian expansion will be checked. While the current Russian regime is at power Ukraine will get neither of those.

I apologise for not being clearer, what I meant was that Ukraine could De Jure recognise the De Facto situation. I'm not suggesting that Ukraine do this, merely pointing out that the doctrine against "aggressive war" is something Russia has used to its advantage and its erosion reduces that advantage.

[Gilrandir]

Russia's doctrine is the one of protecting Russians and Russian speakers wherever it can reach. While Russia deems those in Ukraine oppressed its aggressive policy towards Ukraine will not abate.

[Montmorency]

1. I don't know anything about Zelezny either. Do you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Zelazny?
2. And this bears on Ukranian election because...

Zemansky Zelensky


the doctrine against "aggressive war" is something Russia has used to its advantage and its erosion reduces that advantage.

Isn't it the other way around?


The idea is interesting, so I'd like to try to reproduce what a case might look like for a gambit almost crazy enough to work.

Ukraine relinquishes all claims to Luhansk/Donetsk (but not Crimea), as well as ceasing hostilities and maintaining only a reduced defensive posture along the border. Luhansk and Donetsk are on their own.

Russia has no more frozen conflict in the East, and therefore loses a potential casus belli. Further, it must decide if it's willing to prop up Luhansk/Donetsk indefinitely with its resources when there is no longer a larger aim - barring total reincorporation of Ukraine into the Federation. (Population of L/DPR more than 10X population of South Ossetia/Abkhazia or 8X population of Transnistria.)

Russia cuts L/DPR loose. If leadership wants to join Russian Federation, either the people vote against or Russia rejects them. After years, tired of being a shithole-tier pseudo-country, L/DPR petitions to rejoin Ukraine. Russia resists because it likes having a buffer between Europe-oriented Ukraine and itself. A compromise is reached for Luhansk and Donetsk to accede as special autonomous and demilitarized zones.

???

Negative gearing


Of course, besides being incredibly risky for Ukrainian integrity, there is still no prospect of restitution for the seizure of Crimea, it likely doesn't help Ukrainian strategic posture if Ukraine does want to join NATO after all (continuing Russian incentive to undermine Ukraine) - and this kind of grand maneuvering is only politically feasible in a videogame anyway.

[Crandar]

The comedian is rumoured to be a puppet of his former employer, Igor Kolomoisky. The elections were not that free though, as the communist candidate was banned.

[Gilrandir]

The comedian is rumoured to be a puppet of his former employer, Igor Kolomoisky.

This is not accurate. Kolomoisky is the current employer of the comedian since the latter has his shows and films aired on the TV channel belonging to Kolomoisky. Yet the comedian has a much more ramified entertainment business which is outside Kolomoisky's auspices.


The elections were not that free though, as the communist candidate was banned.

It is not accurate either. The candidate wasn't banned. Communist and nazi ideologies (and consequently parties) are banned in Ukraine. The candidate, though, could have run as an independent candidate, but he chose not to.

[Crandar]

So, the communist candidate was banned.

[Gilrandir]

So, the communist candidate was banned.

As a candidate representing the banned Communist party - yes. If he just ran as an individual claiming no support from the Communist party he could have taken his chance. But he wouldn't have scored much - I guess no more than 3-4%.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, the communist candidate was banned.

Many Western Countries have banned certain political parties. Given its history it doesn't seems overly despotic for Ukraine to ban the Communist Party.

[Crandar]

Well, the fact that many European countries choose authoritarian measures does not excuse Ukraine for oppressing the communists. After all, unlike Nazism, Communism neither treats a specific group of humans as inferior nor does it call for their extermination. The decision to ban the Communist Party reveals how much the Ukrainian establishment values democracy and the worrying infatuation of Ukrainian nationalism with genocidal historical figures and hysterical, fascist-inspired, anticommunism.

[Gilrandir]

Well, the fact that many European countries choose authoritarian measures does not excuse Ukraine for oppressing the communists.

What do you mean under "oppressing"? Communists were just told that their party doesn't exist any more (is illegal), but no one was detained, arrested, sentenced to any terms or persecuted in any other legal way. Moreover, the chief communist (Symonenko) still lives and freely travels all over the country and outside Ukraine. To his hard earned villa in Spain.



After all, unlike Nazism, Communism neither treats a specific group of humans as inferior nor does it call for their extermination. The decision to ban the Communist Party reveals how much the Ukrainian establishment values democracy and the worrying infatuation of Ukrainian nationalism with genocidal historical figures and hysterical, fascist-inspired, anticommunism.

You seem to be infatuated with communists as well to make such claims.

Soviet communists proclaimed proletariat and peasants superior social classes (which renders others inferior), called for and (what is still worse) pursued the policy of exterminating bourgeoisie as a social class, as well as rich farmers (called "kulaks") which was coupled with persecuting the clergy (and destroying temples). To say nothing of executing "agents of imperialistic countries" and "enemies of the state" within their own party. Chinese communists did no less gruesome things.

As for Ukraine (unlike the West) not valuing democracy - see above on PFH claims that many western contries banning some political parties and read (elsewehere) on the opinions of international observers as to the way the elections were held.

And fascist-inspired Ukrainians have taken into the secound round of the elections a comedian Jew who is likely to become a new president (with another Jew currently heading the government). Europe has much to worry about.

[Crandar]

They are deprived of their right to vote for a specific party, which in no way violates the penal code of the country. This is called oppression and the justification of it is indeed reminiscent of fascism. You will need to show me how the Communist Party of Ukraine supports all that nasty stuff you mentioned. Not that this is the reason for which it is banned, as the parliament (https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-celebrates-nazi-collaborator-bans-book-critical-of-pogroms-leader/) and municipal (https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/2019-declared-year-of-stepan-bandera-in-lviv-region.html) authorities openly celebrate and protect the memory of genocidal maniacs, a hypocritical stance which leads to the conclusion that Kiev is not really worried about the heritage of war criminals.

[Gilrandir]

They are deprived of their right to vote for a specific party, which in no way violates the penal code of the country. This is called oppression and the justification of it is indeed reminiscent of fascism.

I see you wish to enter the old debate again. :shrug:

The specific party is responsible for the Femine of 1932-33 and many other evils committed under its guidance while it was at power. And fascists electing Jews as presidents and appointing them prime ministers are very unusual fascists.



You will need to show me how the Communist Party of Ukraine supports all that nasty stuff you mentioned.


Supported. It is now banned, you remember.

It is difficult for me to find texts in English which I can refer to. But I have found some:
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/crimean-tatar-leader-symonenko-should-be-called-to-account-for-proposal-to-change-state-symbols-311470.html?cn-reloaded=1

This is not the first such statement made by the CPU leader. Earlier Symonenko spoke about the Crimean Tatars in a fascist manner. He said that they were fairly deported from Crimea in 1944, because, say, they are betrayers.

https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=m9FBDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=Symonenko+stalin&source=bl&ots=1mipgMWMo6&sig=ACfU3U069XiB7vGWBeukndkYZZV-XcAbQA&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi61tu0ucXhAhVwwIsKHWBcARE4ChDoATAHegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=Symonenko%20stalin&f=false

Other references I can provide are regretfully in Russian and Ukrainian. In them the leader of the Ukraninian communists more than once outlined the positive image of Stalin and spoke in likewise manner of Crimean Tatars.



Not that this is the reason for which it is banned, as the parliament (https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-celebrates-nazi-collaborator-bans-book-critical-of-pogroms-leader/) and municipal (https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/2019-declared-year-of-stepan-bandera-in-lviv-region.html) authorities openly celebrate and protect the memory of genocidal maniacs, a hypocritical stance which leads to the conclusion that Kiev is not really worried about the heritage of war criminals.

It was the same parliament that appointed Groisman Prime Minister of Ukraine, right?

But let me quote the articles you linked.

The Ukrainian parliament last week declared January 1 a national day of commemoration for Stepan Bandera, who briefly joined forces with the Nazi occupation of Ukraine. A nationalist, Bandera hoped the Germans would allow his country independence from the Soviet Union, though the Nazis later arrested him.

Some of his supporters at the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which he headed, committed countless war crimes against Jews.

If we call all who "briefly joined forces with the Nazis" collaborators, should we not start with Stalin, the leader of the Communist Party of the USSR? And if you paid attention, Bandera fell out with the Nazis (as Stalin did) and was not just "arrested" but spent all the rest of WWII in Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Isn't the place befitting collaborators?

And we start condemning a person for what "some" of his supporters did we might as well mention Marx whose numerous supporters and followers did many unsavory things in the USSR, China, North Korea, Cambodia and elsewhere.

And I can give you one more fact that ANY history is a dirty thing:
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/what-s-the-official-line-on-ukraine-s-jew-killer-hero-the-yids-provoked-him-1.57961

The bottom line (unless you want to carry on):
history was full of iniquitous and noble deeds. Some of them were committed by the same people. These people deserve glorification for the latter and condemnation for the former.

[Crandar]

Fascism=/=Antisemitism.
I didn't know that Marx was the leader of the Khmer Rouge, the Bolsheviks and the CCCP. Naughty, naughty Karl!

Bandera and his merry band of sociopaths slaughtered tens of thousands of Poles, which is why I called them genocidal maniacs and not "German collaborators" (although they were), as you strawmanly tried to imply. Peltura may have verbally opposed the pogroms, but his henchmen continued to casually massacre the Jews. I think Peltura, as an adult and Supreme Commander/President of the Ukrainian Republic should be held responsible for the crimes of his subordinates.
I hope that the Ukrainian society will eventually find the necessary maturity to examine its history objectively, without feeling the need to glorify bloodthirsty monsters.

What do you personally think of Bandera and the Volhynian genocide? Do you believe that a couple of dead Ukrainians justify the ethnic cleansing of thousands of Poles?

[Gilrandir]

Fascism=/=Antisemitism.
I didn't know that Marx was the leader of the Khmer Rouge, the Bolsheviks and the CCCP. Naughty, naughty Karl!


All of them claimed to have been Marxists. So Marx had as much to do with actual slaughters as Bandera with the Volyn massacre.



Bandera and his merry band of sociopaths slaughtered tens of thousands of Poles, which is why I called them genocidal maniacs and not "German collaborators" (although they were), as you strawmanly tried to imply.


As I have remarked Bandera was in the concentration camp, so he slaughtered no one. And I would like to have proofs (preferebly by a psychologist) that "his merry band" were sociopaths.



Peltura may have verbally opposed the pogroms, but his henchmen continued to casually massacre the Jews. I think Peltura, as an adult and Supreme Commander/President of the Ukrainian Republic should be held responsible for the crimes of his subordinates.
I hope that the Ukrainian society will eventually find the necessary maturity to examine its history objectively, without feeling the need to glorify bloodthirsty monsters.

As I have said, almost each historical personality has good and bad deeds in his record. We should glorify the former and denounce the latter.



What do you personally think of Bandera and the Volhynian genocide? Do you believe that a couple of dead Ukrainians justify the ethnic cleansing of thousands of Poles?

I think we should treat the cases of Bandera and the massacre separately. I have no great admiration of the man taking into account his "dark side". But one can't forget his ultimate purpose - the creation of the Ukrainian independent state. So for me he remains a controversial figure. But so are many others including those of Israel, who committed war crimes against Arabs back in the 1960s or were involved in terrorism earlier, but are glorifeid there as founders and defenders of the country.

As for the massacre, I think it horrible. But it doesn't make the massacres of Ukrainians by Poles less horrible and you seem to gauge the iniquity of the crime depending on the number of victims. A couple of dead Ukrainians don't seem to upset you. Although it is not true, there were more than a couple, the victims number thousands.

A couple of years ago Poroshenko took part in commemorating the Polish victims and asked for forgiveness on behalf of Ukraine. I don't remember the reciprocate action on the Polish side.

[Montmorency]

Zelensky wins (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/19/a-referendum-on-poroshenko-very-ukrainian-election) with 73%.


In a very Ukrainian twist, there are questions over whether Zelenskiy is really so removed from the traditional political players. Journalists have discovered flight records suggesting he made frequent trips to Tel-Aviv and Geneva, the twin bases of exiled oligarch Ihor Kolomoyskiy, and a number of Zelenskiy’s inner circle are also linked to the businessman, who owns the channel where Zelenskiy’s television programmes appear.

The election thus ends up looking quintessentially Ukrainian: a president who promised he would take on the oligarchs but is actually an oligarch himself, against an actor known for playing a fictional president who takes on the oligarchs, but who is in fact controlled by an oligarch.

Soviet humor?

[Strike For The South]

Hey guys remember when I was like "Putin is a fascist" and yall were all like "no this is just geo politics"

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hey guys remember when I was like "Putin is a fascist" and yall were all like "no this is just geo politics"

Putin's been steadily working at rebuilding the Russian Empire.

[Gilrandir]

Putin pushes his game ever further:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-passports/russia-offers-passports-to-east-ukraine-president-elect-decries-aggressor-state-idUSKCN1S01LU

[Gilrandir]

Now we have the names.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/06/19/identifying-the-separatists-linked-to-the-downing-of-mh17/

[Gilrandir]

Russia is returning to PACE.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2019/06/15/pace-resolution-to-lift-sanctions-on-russia-fatally-flawed-analysis-by-professor-of-european-law/
Europe is on its way to business as usual with Putin.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Russia is returning to PACE.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2019/06/15/pace-resolution-to-lift-sanctions-on-russia-fatally-flawed-analysis-by-professor-of-european-law/
Europe is on its way to business as usual with Putin.

Sanctions seldom work, leaving Europe with a choice between treating all of Russia like a pariah state a la SA in the 1970s, launching a war to take back Ukraine, and going back to business as usual. You are enough of a realist to see what happens.

[Gilrandir]

Sanctions seldom work, leaving Europe with a choice between treating all of Russia like a pariah state a la SA in the 1970s, launching a war to take back Ukraine, and going back to business as usual. You are enough of a realist to see what happens.

Not sanctions, but THE sanctions. The sanctions introduced against Russia.

Complaining that sanctions don't work is like complaining the treatment doesn't work. In spite of what the doctor prescribed, you take just one pill a week and expect the disease to abate. Probably, you should take two pills a day, than you can see whether the treatment works.

As for returning Russia to PACE, it was denied the right to speech (after which it left the premises and stopped payments into PACE's budget) as a response to aggression in Crimea and Donbas. Has anything changed? Has Crimea been returned to where it belongs? Have the Russians withdrawn from Donbas? No, moreover, Russia's guilt in shooting down MH17 has been proved, Russia ignores resloution of the same PACE to release Ukrainian sailors captured in November 2018. What is PACE's reaction? Let Russia appear in the assembly hall (and get the money back). I applaud the integrity and consistency of Europeans. Especially the Dutch, who lost 200 people in the plane crash.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Realistically, we would be at war were it not for the Nukes.

Let's not pretend it's diplomacy keeping the peace.

I feel for the Ukranian people, I do, but the fact NATO does not have the means to resolve the situation and the sanctions weren't doing much.

[Gilrandir]

Realistically, we would be at war were it not for the Nukes.

Let's not pretend it's diplomacy keeping the peace.

I feel for the Ukranian people, I do, but the fact NATO does not have the means to resolve the situation and the sanctions weren't doing much.

League of nations was not shy to expel a perpetrator back in the 1930s. I don't see why modern international bodies can't follow suit for similar transgression. At least this they can do without any war.

As for sanctions, why not cut off Russia from SWIFT and introduce oil embargo? For a start. Then we will see if sanctions work.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

League of nations was not shy to expel a perpetrator back in the 1930s. I don't see why modern international bodies can't follow suit for similar transgression. At least this they can do without any war.

As for sanctions, why not cut off Russia from SWIFT and introduce oil embargo? For a start. Then we will see if sanctions work.

The League of Nations failed in part BECAUSE it expelled members.

[Gilrandir]

The League of Nations failed in part BECAUSE it expelled members.

First of all, it expelled only one member (AFAIK).

Now you will tell me PACE is a thriving organization? It bans a member from voting and sets conditions, the member ignores them, and then PACE says "Alrightie, just pay your sub, will you, and you are pardoned" (= pay and do whatever you want). What country will obey PACE's injunctions after that?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Realistically, we would be at war were it not for the Nukes.

Let's not pretend it's diplomacy keeping the peace.

I feel for the Ukranian people, I do, but the fact NATO does not have the means to resolve the situation and the sanctions weren't doing much.

Sadly, I doubt that. Ukraine is not a NATO member, the Russians are quite close and Western logistics much more tenuous, and NATO in general shows a decided disinterest in bleeding to advance its agenda. Since that is the only currency that counts in this kind of thing...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Sadly, I doubt that. Ukraine is not a NATO member, the Russians are quite close and Western logistics much more tenuous, and NATO in general shows a decided disinterest in bleeding to advance its agenda. Since that is the only currency that counts in this kind of thing...

You Americans, so sentimental.

Shutting Russia out of the Crimea and Karlingrad leaves most of their fleet ice-locked for half the year.

NATO is an alliance of convenience, strategic convenience, and Russian aggression is inconvenient - makes trade difficult.

Plus - it's 27/06/19 and Putin is still basically a Fascist.

[Montmorency]

most of their fleet ice-locked for half the year.

Well... (https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a27615565/ural-russia-icebreaker/)

[Gilrandir]

You Americans, so sentimental.

Shutting Russia out of the Crimea and Karlingrad leaves most of their fleet ice-locked for half the year.

NATO is an alliance of convenience, strategic convenience, and Russian aggression is inconvenient - makes trade difficult.

Plus - it's 27/06/19 and Putin is still basically a Fascist.

Are the British any better? May supported returning Russia to PACE. After Salisbury poisoning too!
Conclusion: when it is about the money values are forgotten.

[Gilrandir]

Proofs of Russian involvement in Ukraine summarized:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/new-video-evidence-of-russian-tanks-in-ukraine-european-court-human-rights

[Montmorency]

Just want to post some good news (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49892339): Russian alcohol consumption has decreased by 43% from its 2003 peak, and life expectancy has reached an all-time high.

[Gilrandir]

Just want to post some good news (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49892339): Russian alcohol consumption has decreased by 43% from its 2003 peak, and life expectancy has reached an all-time high.

And that bears on Ukraine because...

[Montmorency]

And that bears on Ukraine because...

Close enough for Org standards. The only other option is the Weird News thread.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Might have been a better option, maybe a mod could move it?

How's this new President working out, anyway?

[Gilrandir]

How's this new President working out, anyway?

If you are addressing me, then he is a liar totally unfit for his position who was carried into his office by accident and he is digging himself into a deeper hole with almost every step he takes. That wouldn't be a problem with me if he weren't dragging the whole country into the same hole after him.
Sorry if it was too long and distracted the orgahs from discussing merits of Brexit and shortcomings of Trump.

[CrossLOPER]

he is a liar totally unfit for his position who was carried into his office by accident and he is digging himself into a deeper hole with almost every step he takes. That wouldn't be a problem with me if he weren't dragging the whole country into the same hole after him.

Hey, seems to be a lot of that going around. Wonder what's causing it?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If you are addressing me, then he is a liar totally unfit for his position who was carried into his office by accident and he is digging himself into a deeper hole with almost every step he takes. That wouldn't be a problem with me if he weren't dragging the whole country into the same hole after him.
Sorry if it was too long and distracted the orgahs from discussing merits of Brexit and shortcomings of Trump.

Well, that's disappointing. I hoped he might just be honest but inept.


Hey, seems to be a lot of that going around. Wonder what's causing it?

I wonder if what we're seeing is the generations exposed to the most leaded petrol finally coming to power? Or just leaded petrol in the voters?

[Gilrandir]

Well, that's disappointing. I hoped he might just be honest but inept.

If you mean honest = not a thief, that is so far correct (as far as we know). But if you mean honest = not lying, that is certainly not the case.

The basic premise of his electoral campaign was "I'm not one of those corrupt liars that have been running the counrty since 1991. Those politicains live in their one world and know nothing of the hardships of the people and don't do anything to alleviate them. I'm just a guy next door who will make Ukraine into a prosperous and peaceful country."

His started his campaign with a heartfelt video where he asked if Ukrainians were tired of presidents who gave offices to their army pals and business partners. He promised to stop that practice and hold competitions so that any person could apply and take a state office. He also promised to step down the moment he broke any law. He stated that the war in Eastern Ukraine was going on because it was profitable for the then authorities who only hollered about Russia the aggressor but in fact had business in Russia and with Russia. He said that he would issue a decree that will forbid any official who held some state position in 2014-1019 to do it again since everything they did has brought the country to the brink of a precipice. And his said that his advent would spell the end of the age of poverty.

And he became the president.

What did he do then? Then he started appointing to the offices his showbiz partners, his wife's classmates and nieces of his firends. Most of them were inadequate for their new positions. For example, the persom who wrote scripts for his shows and has been his childhood buddy became the head of the secret service (SBU). One of those appointments was the head of his office which was against the law which states that any person who had state positions in 2010-2014 couldn't have them again (aka lustration).

He dissolved the parliament (a highly dubious move as far as its legality is concerned) stating that the reason for it was the low level of trust that the parliament enjoyed according to polls.

The promised competitions were held in a couple of cases and are largely forgotten now. The person who won one of them was appointed his press secretary and she has become notorious in a very short time for her verbal rudeness and physical attacks against journalists who wanted to interview the president (and recieved his approval for it).
https://ua.news/ru/video-press-sekretar-zelenskogo-nabrosilas-na-zhurnalista/
Never mind the text, just watch the video.
The president just made fun of the accidents, as befits a comedian.

Then it was discovered that Zelensky was getting profits from a company that operated in Russia shooting movies and receiving payments directly from the Russian state budget. The people he brought with him were also reported to have business in Russia. As an example, the head of the regional administration of my region appointed by Zelensky bought real estate and land in Russia in 2016-2017.

He traveled around the country giving soviet style dressing downs to local officials and city mayors (which he has no right to do since he didn't appoint them, they were elected by people and answerable to people only).

He made some officials resign stating that he had proofs that they were involved in illegal activities connected with customs service and amber mining. How do you like it? No charges, no arrests, just get out of here, willya?

Then despite of his lustration lipservice he left the minister of interior, the head of the national bank, the finance minister to keep their positions (what about the brink of precipice they brought the country to?). His new ministers said that they will continue the policy of the previous ministers of healthcare and education (no precipice here either?).

When his party (featuring wedding photographers and MCs on the roster) got a landslide victory at the parliamentary elections he started to concentrate all power in his hands by dissolving central electoral committee (which held two democtratic and transparent elections where he and his party won), having the parliament let him appoint the heads of anti-corruption agencies and the National Guard.

And his foreign policy is mostly a flop. Under his presidency Russia was returned to PACE and only a couple of days ago he agreed to the Steinmeyer formula on Donbas which persupposes holding elections in the occupied territories without Russia withdrawing its troops and with Russia retaining control of the border with DNR/LNR.

And no end to the age of poverty in the offing, so far.

Yet many people are still applauding his decisions and are ready to cheer at every full stop in his speeches. For example, my mother-in-law who has a small business and was (and is) his ardent supporter was informed that now she would have to install cash registers in her small booths which will incur great expenses. She is sure that it is the local authorities who wreak this havoc and doesn't want to believe that it is the parliament (where Zelensky's party has an overwhelming majority) that adopts such laws.

I can only hope that more people will eventually open there eyes and see what plague they have brought to power.

[CrossLOPER]

Well, that's disappointing. I hoped he might just be honest but inept.
I spoke to a guy who stated he was voting for Trump back in 2016. His reasoning was that current politicians are so corrupt, that they need an outsider to freshen things up. This guy is a college professor at one of the most prestigious universities on the east coast. He was my professor some time ago. He really drank the "drain the swamp" koolaid. I can't understand the logic of people thinking that some random dude seriously cares about THEM and is going to help THEM and fix everything just because "everyone else is corrupt".

I can't tell if there was masterful social engineering at work or if critical thinking is a lost art.


I wonder if what we're seeing is the generations exposed to the most leaded petrol finally coming to power? Or just leaded petrol in the voters?
I just wish I had something to argue against. I can argue with religious fanatics or even racists. I can't argue with "he is upsetting the right people". It's like a cry from a person that is so totally hopeless that they want to take everyone else down with them. It's narcissistic and impractical at the same time.

[Crandar]

Even if a candidate has the best intentions (Zhelensky didn't), nepotism and corruption cannot be influenced decisively by a single change in the presidential office. It's easy to believe that difficult problems can be fixed with easy solutions, but reality is somewhat grimmer. Ukraine will become a more transparent and efficient country only gradually and slowly, while Zhelensky will probably experience a meteoric fall, similar to his recent rise. Unless he's a talented orator and can distract the sheep by vandalising old statues.

And that bears on Ukraine because...
It's fine Gilrandir, the Ukrainian TV mentioned it around 4 a.m. yesterday, so that makes it totally on-topic (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/148457-Ukraine-Thread?p=2053727733&viewfull=1#post2053727733).

[Gilrandir]

It's easy to believe that difficult problems can be fixed with easy solutions

This was what Zelensky promised during his election campaign. When asked how can the war in Donbas be stopped he said "One just has to stop shooting".




Ukraine will become a more transparent and efficient country only gradually and slowly

It was moving that way, but evidently many people thought that the movement shoud be rocket like - and elected the one who promised that.



It's fine Gilrandir, the Ukrainian TV mentioned it around 4 a.m. yesterday, so that makes it totally on-topic (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/148457-Ukraine-Thread?p=2053727733&viewfull=1#post2053727733).

You watch Ukrainian TV at 4 a.m?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This was what Zelensky promised during his election campaign. When asked how can the war in Donbas be stopped he said "One just has to stop shooting".



It was moving that way, but evidently many people thought that the movement shoud be rocket like - and elected the one who promised that.



You watch Ukrainian TV at 4 a.m?

At least people are voting for someone who promised change - even if it was false change.

It's a kind of hope, which is a kind of progress.

[Gilrandir]

At least people are voting for someone who promised change - even if it was false change.

It's a kind of hope, which is a kind of progress.

People always vote for someone (or something) who/that promises changes. You did this in case of Brexit, did you? Even if people support those who are at power they do that because they are promised to have "better us", "us 2.0". I believe it is a characteristic trait of humans - never to be satisfied with what they have and aspire for the better (when they vote for changes they always presume that the change will be for the better). So it isn't a problem for me.

The problem is that Zelensky presented himself (probably as Trump did) as a total opposite to politicians, as an average guy around the corner who built a successful self and knows how to build a successful country. He wanted to look an epitome of us (ordinary people) vs politicians of all views who lie, steal, embezzle, grab power and don't know how to rule the country. I somehow saw through this guise and never bought his promises. Like when he said he wouldn't hire his friends and business partners. But it is a natural thing to do - you surround yourself with those who you know and who you can rely upon. Why do you need to lie that you will hire total strangers? And all of this can be said about other promises of his. And all of this is very often exacerbated by the professional inadequacy of the people appointed by him.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

People always vote for someone (or something) who/that promises changes. You did this in case of Brexit, did you? Even if people support those who are at power they do that because they are promised to have "better us", "us 2.0". I believe it is a characteristic trait of humans - never to be satisfied with what they have and aspire for the better (when they vote for changes they always presume that the change will be for the better). So it isn't a problem for me.

The problem is that Zelensky presented himself (probably as Trump did) as a total opposite to politicians, as an average guy around the corner who built a successful self and knows how to build a successful country. He wanted to look an epitome of us (ordinary people) vs politicians of all views who lie, steal, embezzle, grab power and don't know how to rule the country. I somehow saw through this guise and never bought his promises. Like when he said he wouldn't hire his friends and business partners. But it is a natural thing to do - you surround yourself with those who you know and who you can rely upon. Why do you need to lie that you will hire total strangers? And all of this can be said about other promises of his. And all of this is very often exacerbated by the professional inadequacy of the people appointed by him.

I think the connection to Trump is apt - as John Oliver said, now anyone CAN be President. My point was more the kind of change people are voting for.

OK, in reality Zelensky is little better in terms of corruption than his predecessors, is at all, but at least the change he was promising was more than simply "higher pay, better job." At the very least the fact that his narrative of less corruption and more transparency caught fire shows that these are the things a lot of Ukrainians are prioritising.

That seems a positive thing in itself given you're in the middle of a civil ware - despite which the country didn't elect a former general.

[Gilrandir]

That seems a positive thing in itself given you're in the middle of a civil ware - despite which the country didn't elect a former general.

I thought that everybody realizes it is not a CIVIL war. The fact that there are Ukrainians across the frontline doesn't make it civil since it was started, is financed, supplied with weapons, ammo, fuel and regular army incursions at crucial moments by Russia. Moreover, Russia finances not only the combatants, but the civilians as well, the currency that is in circulation there is the Russian ruble and all leaders of the so called DNR and LNR were formerly Russian citizens and are now Russian stooges appointed and replaced at will from the Kremlin.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I thought that everybody realizes it is not a CIVIL war. The fact that there are Ukrainians across the frontline doesn't make it civil since it was started, is financed, supplied with weapons, ammo, fuel and regular army incursions at crucial moments by Russia. Moreover, Russia finances not only the combatants, but the civilians as well, the currency that is in circulation there is the Russian ruble and all leaders of the so called DNR and LNR were formerly Russian citizens and are now Russian stooges appointed and replaced at will from the Kremlin.

Of course our leadership cadres are aware of this. Some choose to believe the fig-leaf, others confront with words, none of our governments is willing to risk war with Russia to stop it. I have said that before and I have yet to see compelling evidence that that will change or that anything short of that will sway the Kremlin.

[Gilrandir]

Of course our leadership cadres are aware of this. Some choose to believe the fig-leaf, others confront with words, none of our governments is willing to risk war with Russia to stop it. I have said that before and I have yet to see compelling evidence that that will change or that anything short of that will sway the Kremlin.

I didn't mean authorities of any country, I meant people on these boards.

[Gilrandir]

JIT on MH17 acknowledges that Russian top officials are implicated (including Shoygu and Surkov). Now there is the final step to make: to own up to the fact that NO Russian official involved in the war in Donbas could take important decisions that were not approved by Putin.
https://www.politie.nl/themas/flight-mh17/witness-appeal-crash-mh17.html

[Gilrandir]

On how civil the war in Ukraine was/is.
https://112.international/conflict-in-eastern-ukraine/bellingcat-russia-shelled-ukraines-territory-at-least-150-times-in-summer-2014-47203.html

[Gilrandir]

A good summary of what Zelensky has (not) achieved in relations with Russia for a year of his presidency.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/does-putin-want-peace/?fbclid=IwAR095Sf_HRoIWpvIzHeGZhzDh-qVDdEnZBqny8lY8GuCSseYHeuJEkc4eKY

[Gilrandir]

A new Russian church celebrating victory in World War II.

23823

Is is me or has Isengard come alive?

[edyzmedieval]

Gil, how do you view President Zelensky so far? My Ukrainian friends are rather neutral, something of a so-so attitude towards him.

[Gilrandir]

Gil, how do you view President Zelensky so far? My Ukrainian friends are rather neutral, something of a so-so attitude towards him.

As Thorin in The Hobbit (the real one, the book, I mean) put it, "my mind doesn't change with the rising and setting of a few suns". So, my attitude to him hasn't changed - I consider him an incompetent impostor. All his campaign was built on anti-establishment rhetoric like "look what these criminal politicians have done to the country. I'm not like them. I'm one of you. I'm a guy next door. I won't lie, steal, and embezzle." But he does everything all the Ukrainian politicians do - gives his former showbiz colleagues official positions, has business with Russia, surreptitiously goes to warm countries for vacations, moves around in road trains of no less than 14 cars, etc. And all this is coupled with blatant incomptence both of himself and the people he appoints.

[edyzmedieval]

But according to the polls he seemed to be faring quite well in the first year? 2019 that is.

I've looked at some articles in the Kyiv Post as well, he had a good grasp in the first year and now it's tumbling, especially with the new cabinet. I don't know too much about what is happening there, just some articles, so feel free to add details.

[Gilrandir]

But according to the polls he seemed to be faring quite well in the first year? 2019 that is.

I've looked at some articles in the Kyiv Post as well, he had a good grasp in the first year and now it's tumbling, especially with the new cabinet. I don't know too much about what is happening there, just some articles, so feel free to add details.

According to polls people still favor him over others, but it may be not his achievement, but the shortcomings of others. Yet his support has dropped dramatically since the elections. Why do still many people like him? His pre-election charm of a fair-haired boy next door seems to linger. Many of those who voted for him (like my mother-in-law) are sure that all the problems of his reign must be caused by the plots and intrigues of his opponenets. Ministers, deputies, prosecutors - everybody may be at fault (to say nothign of the previous , but not Zelensky (who brought all of them to power in his wake). Economy is on a decline which started in late 2019 (long before COVID reached us) and experts attribute it to the incompetence of Zelensky's ministers. And now he started to persecute Poroshenko on ridicluous charges to cover up for blunders in economy.

Just one of the examples that are in my sphere - education. We don't have a full-fledged minister yet - only an acting one. The candidate that Zelensky wants to appoint was caught more than once in plagiarism, but he still speaks of him as the likeliest candidate for the post.
Such poor personnel positioning seems to be a hallmark of Zelensky's.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

22 June 2020 CE

Status: Putin is still a fascist. Trump is still a fascist wannabe. Ukraine's government still cannot get its act together. Nobody is willing to face down Russia.

Miss anything?

[Gilrandir]

22 June 2020 CE

Status: Putin is still a fascist. Trump is still a fascist wannabe. Ukraine's government still cannot get its act together. Nobody is willing to face down Russia.

Miss anything?

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-depth-research-reports/report/operation-secondary-infektion/

[Pannonian]

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-depth-research-reports/report/operation-secondary-infektion/

Is that our Russia Report? Hang on, our government's still sitting on that one.