Unit Screenshots [Archive] - Page 2

PROMETHEUS

11-19-2004, 21:35

mmmmm Now I have a doubt .... the

TROOPS IN ROME

The Praetorian Guard: Since the time of Sulla, Roman legions were not allowed to be stationed in Rome or Italy, but in 27 BCE Augustus founded a new, elite organization, the praetorian guard, to serve as a permanent bodyguard for the emperor. There were originally 9 cohorts, 3 of whom were stationed in Rome with the rest in nearby towns. Under Tiberius, all 9 cohorts were garrisoned in one camp in Rome (the castra praetoria), and Caligula increased the number of cohorts to 12. The praetorians were under the command of two prefects (later only one) of equestrian rank and were divided into centuries in the usual manner. Service in the guard was easier and more prestigious than in the legions, and praetorians were paid 2-3 times more than the legionaries. As can be seen from the statue at right, their armor was similar to the dress uniform of earlier Republican troops, with molded leather breastplates and helmets with visors and crests. To learn more about the praetorians, visit the Praetorian Camp in Region VI of VRoma, either via the web gateway or the anonymous browser.

on the plates I modelled what i saw , but from his pic seems that the praetorian guards are more similar to the urban cohort CA made.....

http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/praetorian.jpg

http://www.livius.org/a/1/romanempire/praet_guard.jpg

The Urban Cohorts: When Augustus instituted the office of city prefect (praefectus urbi), he also established 3 cohorts (the cohortes urbanae) to constitute a sort of police force for the city of Rome. These troops were also stationed in the camp of the praetorians in Rome, though they served under the command of the city prefect, a man of senatorial rank. Outstanding service in the urban cohorts could lead to promotion into the more prestigious praetorian guard.

The Vigiles: The vigiles, also founded by Augustus, served as fire fighters and night watchmen in the city of Rome. They were originally drawn from the ranks of freedmen and were not really soldiers, although they were organized on a quasi-military basis. The commander of the vigiles was a prefect of equestrian rank (the praefectus vigilum). They were divided into seven cohorts led by tribunes; each cohort was responsible for two of the 14 regions of the city.

Meneldil

11-19-2004, 21:53

I'm not an expert with Roman military history, but I read in a few books that Praetorian guards might not have been as elit-ish as people use to think, but were rather heirs or people from wealthy families, who never even saw a real battle in their life.

Dead Moroz

11-19-2004, 22:44

@PROMETHEUS I didn't mean the pattern itself (I'm not a specialist on Romans), I just wanted to say that you painted it ugly. If you'll keep this pattern you must remake it. Please, pay more attention to graphical quality of your work.

Other things which should be fixed:
- Remove the gap in the bottom of chain mail.
- Correct the shape of shield. And it's really too dark. Maybe you have too bright monitor? ~;)
- Something's strange with centurion's face.
- Is it possible to do something with shoulders?

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/8445/qwerty.jpg

PROMETHEUS

11-19-2004, 22:56

@PROMETHEUS I didn't mean the pattern itself (I'm not a specialist on Romans), I just wanted to say that you painted it ugly.

may be u can make a better one since i painted free hand

If you'll keep this pattern you must remake it. Please, pay more attention to graphical quality of your work.

to me looks good

Other things which should be fixed:

- Remove the gap in the bottom of chain mail.

that can't be made since the games stretches the pixels of graphical textures and can't be fixed

- Correct the shape of shield.

this would mean to add more poligons to the shield wich is really unnecessary since it would just overload the game with more poligons like already done with the new lorica armour...

And it's really too dark. Maybe you have too bright monitor?

may be you have it too dark? I repeat the screenshot was taken by the non illuminated side of the game by evening

- Something's strange with centurion's face.

I fixded that

- Is it possible to do something with shoulders?

You mean the Centurion shoulders? Ifi so I guess I could remove the shoulders , but then I should move the mantle and I dunno if I'll be able without touching the skin modifier in the stack pile of the mesh....

eadingas

11-19-2004, 23:09

Don't take the plates too literally. The 'scorpion' symbol looks like it's simply a legion's emblem...

PROMETHEUS

11-20-2004, 14:28

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/pics/early-legionary.jpg

this seems the most reliable figuer of an princeps so I will use this shield pattern for all the early legion.....

PROMETHEUS

11-20-2004, 15:16

the new triarii

http://img79.exs.cx/img79/5636/jpg13.jpg

PROMETHEUS

11-20-2004, 15:59

here is a question , making the shield asymmetrical requires 2 ways

1 enlarge the texture size to place a full shield pattern

2 cut some more faces to make the shield hide some patterns and show others

the first increases the size of teh texture in space and so on the game may have some influence making it a bit more heavy

the second increases polycount by a couple of faces more making the same effect ,

the second is for me better solution becouse the first require a complete redraw of the restof the images since have to keep the same proportion .......

here is a pic ........

the question is do we really need asymmetrical patterns on shields?

http://img79.exs.cx/img79/857/jpg14.jpg

Colovion

11-20-2004, 17:29

I haven't had time to read the forum lately, much less do any testing, but you guys are putting the CA devs to shame with this unit skinning. Great work!

The Wizard

11-20-2004, 18:19

Hmm, Prometheus, your latest screenshots seem not to be functioning for me.

Anyways, kudos to your work! It is quite amazing and very well skinned/edited, and I am happy such people as yourself work with us. Keep up the good work!~:cheers:

~Wiz

PROMETHEUS

11-20-2004, 21:16

Ok may be this will work.....

http://img35.exs.cx/img35/766/picture63.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-20-2004, 21:24

Ok may be this will work.....
~:eek: Almost perfect!!!! :smile: Just one detail missing. The helms were a bit more pointy and slightly taller (oval). Apart from that it's just perfect!!! :2thumbsup:

SwordsMaster

11-20-2004, 21:28

I think they look great m8! Great work!

Dead Moroz

11-20-2004, 21:58

PROMETHEUS, very, very good work!

But can you give me your new cas'es and textures for triarii and late praetorians? I don't want to be a boring complaining person again, I'll try to fix all your "bugs" myself. OK?

And I don't agree with new shield for early Roman units (damn, I start complaining again!). On the picture, that you posted depicted modern free variation on Roman theme. In historical reconstructions shields do not have that wings, afaik. And shields must be more oval (look at the pics you posted yourself).

You mean the Centurion shoulders? Ifi so I guess I could remove the shoulders , but then I should move the mantle and I dunno if I'll be able without touching the skin modifier in the stack pile of the mesh....
No, I meant soldier's shoulders - I circled this place on my picture.
But centurion - too. As Aymar said before, centurion shouldn't have that straps.

PROMETHEUS

11-20-2004, 22:39

PROMETHEUS, very, very good work!

But can you give me your new cas'es and textures for triarii and late praetorians? I don't want to be a boring complaining person again, I'll try to fix all your "bugs" myself. OK?

WHAT ARE THOSE BUGS?

And I don't agree with new shield for early Roman units (damn, I start complaining again!). On the picture, that you posted depicted modern free variation on Roman theme. In historical reconstructions shields do not have that wings, afaik.

THERE IS NO REFERENCE TO ANY pattern for early roman republican legion but for this one all the others are more fantastical , tough i see the one I used more used by legions at Caesar's time , but then again , find me a good pattern and I will add it otherwise better this than anything , since if we don't add at least a ymbol or a pattern top the shields the armies will look too plain and confusing...

And shields must be more oval (look at the pics you posted yourself).

I THINK that the shield is ok making more oval is just a taste thing , better focus on making more units or the project will just make like the Zenones's never ending motus.....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-21-2004, 00:52

Parmenio

11-21-2004, 02:07

Some very nice looking units there. :2thumbsup:

Perhaps some more faction design variation on the Roman shields? I was also wondering about inverting the vertical UVs on one half of the shield to suggest asymmetry without using a bigger texure.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-21-2004, 03:02

No, I meant soldier's shoulders - I circled this place on my picture.
But centurion - too. As Aymar said before, centurion shouldn't have that straps.
I've already talked to him through PM and I will rework the shoulders in MAX.

PROMETHEUS

11-21-2004, 16:21

Spartans as I have found arouns should look like....

http://img22.exs.cx/img22/5373/frfrfeafefsdatgtr.jpg

PROMETHEUS

11-21-2004, 20:43

http://img22.exs.cx/img22/2570/frfrfeafefsdatgtr1.jpg

this is a better representation of the Samnite Gladiator , I still have to work on some details on the helmet and skins tough.....

http://img22.exs.cx/img22/4648/gladiatoEmiSecutor.jpg

http://img22.exs.cx/img22/1469/gladiatosamnite.jpg

Urnamma

11-21-2004, 20:44

PROMETHEUS: We're not using gladiators. We're not using any gladiators.

PROMETHEUS

11-21-2004, 21:06

Why not ? they have been used , even a full army of gladiators....

U remember Spartacus?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-21-2004, 21:09

Spartans as I have found arouns should look like....
Historical pics from the period in question, please. We need to be sure that they were exactly like that at that time.

BTW, how did you make the Lacadaemon symbol without using mirrors? How did you edited the shield's UVW map to achieve that? :confused:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-21-2004, 21:11

PROMETHEUS: We're not using gladiators. We're not using any gladiators.
Yes we are, yes we are...

In slave rebellions in Italy they will appear. Therefore is Gladiator work is necessary and correct.

PROMETHEUS

11-21-2004, 21:23

BTW, how did you make the Lacadaemon symbol without using mirrors? How did you edited the shield's UVW map to achieve that?

haven't you noticed that also the gladiator is totally asymmetrical ? lookthe sleeves and the legs....
I used unwrap UVW mapping...

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/5373/frfrfeafefsdatgtr.jpg

Vercingetorix

11-21-2004, 22:22

Great work PROMETHEUS ! Hope you aren't enlarging the textures to make them asymmetrical (we've been warned by Jerome that evil things will happen if we do :uneasy: )

Keep it up, I've been a bit delinquent with my work. Hope Psycho doesn't kill me :tongue:

PROMETHEUS

11-21-2004, 22:31

Hope you aren't enlarging the textures to make them asymmetrical
BY other modding experiences I know is better tokeep the 256 x 256 or this similar proportion in textures , tough I have tried to utilize double files to load textures but soon discaded this approach , instead I redraw the disposition of the stuff inside each texture and enlarged or reduced some of them to gain space , this way I got the possibility to display more textures in a single one.....

Urnamma

11-21-2004, 23:02

Yes we are, yes we are...

They fought like Roman legionaries as soon as they got the equipment... Hopefully we're only using one unit of them...

Ranika

11-21-2004, 23:05

They fought like Legionarres when the Romans employed them. Aymar mentioned them as rebels though, and in a rebellion, they would use what equipment would be at hand, which would be gladiatorial weapons and armor.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-21-2004, 23:17

BTW, how did you make the Lacadaemon symbol without using mirrors? How did you edited the shield's UVW map to achieve that?

haven't you noticed that also the gladiator is totally asymmetrical ? lookthe sleeves and the legs....
I used unwrap UVW mapping...
Yes, I did. But the Spartans shield seems to have it's texture stretched. Therefore my question about the method. I've been unable to make something similar...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-21-2004, 23:21

Keep it up, I've been a bit delinquent with my work. Hope Psycho doesn't kill me :tongue:
HE!HE!HE! :grin2: Watch out!!! After all his name is pretty explainatory... :wink:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-21-2004, 23:23

They fought like Roman legionaries as soon as they got the equipment... Hopefully we're only using one unit of them...
Nope. All three. But as I've said, they will not appear except in rebellions. And it's up to the player not to let them get legionaire equipment... :wink:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-21-2004, 23:31

Spartans as I have found arouns should look like....

http://img22.exs.cx/img22/5373/frfrfeafefsdatgtr.jpg
BTW... ...isn't this somewhat different?

http://img18.exs.cx/img18/2887/Spartanspost_11_1092854648.jpg

See? No greaves, no white linen cuirass...

Although I know this relates to 400BC, I would like for you to show us a depiction of about 270BC for comparation.

PROMETHEUS

11-21-2004, 23:33

btw I would like to see also other units made by other people where are them??? Even becouse I don't want to step in someon'else's work....

Urnamma

11-21-2004, 23:46

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-21-2004, 23:51

Aymar, those aren't Spartan hoplites. Those are Laconian (Spartan Allied) hoplites. They're where Iphikrates and others got the idea for the unarmored 'fast' hoplites that were supposed to deal with peltasts. The Spartans themselves would have been armored. They should have linen cuirass, or possibly the bronze body armor. After all, Sparta was the most conservative of the Greek states.
But warfare styles evolve. Spartans used a lot less armour in latter times. Up to the point of wearing no armour at all. I've read it in several references.

BTW, why do you say they are Spartan allies and not Spartans themselves? Is that what the text means with "Lakedaemonian" hoplites?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-22-2004, 00:21

btw I would like to see also other units made by other people where are them??? Even becouse I don't want to step in someon'else's work....
I've been unable to continue my work on Iberian and Carthaginian units, but I hope to finish reskinning and remodelling 4 units, by wednesday.

PROMETHEUS

11-22-2004, 00:42

No I meant that I really want to know what is beeing making and what we are made so far that is why I posted the last time a thread about a full complete list of worked units, in work units and to work units......

PSYCHO V

11-22-2004, 01:17

Nice work Prom

DeadRunner

11-22-2004, 01:24

Nice Prometheus ,great job

Urnamma

11-22-2004, 02:23

Lakadaimoni are those from Lacadaimon. Lakadaimon is the domain of Sparta. You have helots, allies, and spartans. Allies are in an inferior position, think republican rome and the italian allies. Spartan hoplites would be the best armored and armed. The allies would have less in the way of arms, sometimes fighting without any armor. Helots were only allowed to be skirmishers and the like, and were notoriously unreliable. Spartan hoplites (as an elite unit) would probably have linen armor or even a bronze cuirass, because they were expected to be in the thick of the melee. The periphery work (cavalry, etc) would be left to the allies, whose armor would be inferior.

Urnamma

11-22-2004, 02:25

The latest text about the Spartans as an independent power has their hoplites armored with Linen and following the Iphikritean model layed down by Athens and adopted by Thebes, and the elite hoplites armored in bronze.

PROMETHEUS

11-22-2004, 03:12

http://img21.exs.cx/img21/5373/frfrfeafefsdatgtr.jpg

Thraex Gladiator , the equvalent of CA veliti....

Stormy

11-22-2004, 04:12

Wonderful work PROMETHEUS :thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-22-2004, 05:09

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-22-2004, 05:12

PROMETHEUS

11-22-2004, 11:07

http://www.maitlandtoysoldiershoppe.com/products/images/grenadastudios/g174-2.jpg

http://ehost.users.btopenworld.com/HCH/images/ag5v1fro.jpg

http://ehost.users.btopenworld.com/HCH/images/ag5v1bac.jpg

Spartan Hoplite wearing linen cuirass, pilos helmet armed with spear and hoplon

Dead Moroz

11-22-2004, 12:55

Dead Moroz

11-22-2004, 13:36

WHAT ARE THOSE BUGS?
Bad made shield pattern:
http://img50.exs.cx/img50/9601/prom5.jpg

Lines on breast (because of wrong copied segments of chain mail):
http://img50.exs.cx/img50/1884/prom6.jpg

...better focus on making more units or the project will just make like the Zenones's never ending motus.....
Absolutely disagreed. Historical accuracy is more important for us than the number of units and the speed of their creation. That's why we making this mod. And this is the main idea of this mod.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-22-2004, 17:48

http://www.maitlandtoysoldiershoppe.com/products/images/grenadastudios/g174-2.jpg
Was this the kind of thing that you meant?
http://history.smsu.edu/jchuchiak/s_hoplitSparta.jpg

Remember one thing: these pics are out of date pics. They relate to a much earlier period because of the use of the Corinthian helm. Circa 400BC not 270BC.

Like you said earlier I could claim the same and say this is the Spartan hoplite of 270BC:

http://history.smsu.edu/jchuchiak/equip_2.jpg

But I won't... ~:) Because he looks like an Alexandrian Hypaspist.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-22-2004, 17:53

...better focus on making more units or the project will just make like the Zenones's never ending motus.....
Absolutely disagreed. Historical accuracy is more important for us than the number of units and the speed of their creation. That's why we making this mod. And this is the main idea of this mod.
Dead Moroz is completelly right on this subject. This is an Historical correction MOD. We're not making units because we feel like it. We are making them to simulate History in the best possible way. We prefer to be sure and make things perfect than to rush stuff just to release the MOD earlier. Speed is the enemy of perfection. :cool:

PROMETHEUS

11-22-2004, 18:20

Absolutely disagreed. Historical accuracy is more important for us than the number of units and the speed of their creation. That's why we making this mod. And this is the main idea of this mod.

MMM this is a bad mentality , If you dream the perfect world and do nothing to build it you will never get out of your hom , my politic is

FIRST BUILD , THEN REFINE

AS YOU HAVE SEEN I have made severall units and refined them severall times with some units starting from the Samnite ones ....

then

I never said I was going to make fantasy units , I just try to make them as similar to what is supposed to be the unit at that period of time , men have different opinions , so historians , so what is certain for you may be completely wrong for someonelse , What I try is to please both to reach a compromise of perfection , the Spartan I did is the most accurate reconstruction od a 270 BC hoplit based on deductions , studies , plates comparisons and mergings , is not invented at all!!!
If you have a photograph of a Spartan Hoplit marching on the fields directly from this date then post me , untill then all is mere speculation , I disagree on following stereotipic patterns , the Spartan society was a conservative one , but also a warrior class so the better guess is to have them wear a "spartan" cuirass , fairly common used by Greek hoplits in this period , with their charachteristic lambda shield wich depicts their class status and also their helmet wich is most probably a heritage from the previous generations of warriors in the Spartan society....then the reconstruction is born , the mantle , _(I worked half afternoon to add it ) is becouse they wore it , even if not in combat it made part of their status symbol so should go in and helps recognize them from back wich otherwuise would be very difficoult to distinguish from other hoplits if not from the frontal face.....

then

Aymar de Bois Mauri

You can state by yourself that the pic doesn't shows what I reconstructed , Also you should not undervaluate the maniacism of Miniature painters that most of the time have better sources than historians wich this is the case

Spartans used this pylos helmet countrary of what is believed in ancient classical history corinthian type , which may be you cna see in the Troy movie but not at this time unless for some other units...

also the picture you posted shows a thracian helmet wich is out of place to me for a greek hoplit ....

I am working for recostructing units the more close to what they should like ...and this is why I joined this project , so once made the unit unless special errors if followed right principles of reconstruction , can be criticized but unless you bring a certain prove that this isn't correct then this is the better we can come to ....

also I had other plates and info on books about all the units I reconstructed as you have seen by the many plates I posted , But I got bored to scannerize every time I make a new unit so I preferred to pick up an image from internet that looks more close......

Bad made shield pattern
Ok remake a better one post it to me and I will change the shield , untill then I will keep this....

Lines on breast

I don't even notice them but if you see that there are then you will be able to correct them all when I release the package, as I said those are minimal errors , not historical accuracy ones....

Meneldil

11-22-2004, 18:40

Well, the pic Aymar posted (representing an Athenian hoplite I think) is IMO the more accurate.

The most recent plate of the "Ancient Greek" (Elite 7) Osprey book, that takes place in ~330BC (not that far from 270BC), clearly shows an athenian hoplite with a phrygian helmet.

Here's a part the comment from the author :
"In the 360s Athenian funerary reliefs start to show hoplites wearing muscle-cuirasses and 'Phrygian' helmets."

Of course, this is not something about Spartan hoplite, but from what I've read, the phrygian helmet was commonly used in greek armies at the end of the 4th century BC.
The book also deals with the contingent sent by the greeks in 278 BC to help the Aetolians against the Galatians.

The corinthian helmet was probably not used anymore in 270BC, though many hoplites were probably wearing a body light armor again.

PROMETHEUS

11-22-2004, 19:26

Wich doesn't fir the Spartan tough...

Crazed Rabbit

11-22-2004, 20:04

Truly excellent units! I will definately get this mod!
Great work Prometheus!

Crazed Rabbit

PROMETHEUS

11-22-2004, 21:21

http://img93.exs.cx/img93/5373/frfrfeafefsdatgtr.jpg

Sicily mercenary hoplites....

Meneldil

11-22-2004, 22:10

Well, here are two pics I took from my Osprey Book. They are quite dodgy, but at least we can see the plates (since I haven't resized the pic, it might take a while to load) :

Late 4BC Hoplite (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=23065)

490 BC Hoplites (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=23066)

Plate 1 Characters are from the left to the right :
Athenian Hoplite, second half 4th BC
Rhodian Hoplite, end of the 4th BC
Greek mercenary, c. 330 BC

Plate 2 characters are from the left to the right :
Lakedaimonian officier 490 BC
Samian hoplite, 490 BC
Athenian hoplite of Alkaionid Clan, 490 BC
Argive hoplite, 490 BC

The main point to this post is to show what Hoplite looked like a few decades before 270BC. They are quite different from the losy hoplite we have for RTW (I don't know if those are accurate, since my knowledge about hellenes is summed up in this book, but I think they suck)

I posted the 2nd plate cause I think the pic you use for the mercenary hoplites' shield was rather related to an Athenian family. I might be wrong on this aswell, but I don't think mercenaries should have that kind of shield.

Anyway, good work on the skins :)

PROMETHEUS

11-22-2004, 22:30

The Trinacria is a symbol for the millenia - one which has taken root and has become a passionate Sicilian tradition. It derives from the archaic Triskele, that is that strange figure composed of a head of woman from which three human legs are folded at the knee - of Sicily, the notion of the geographic triangular shape of the island finds one of symbolic depiction of the monster with three legs, trìquetra (to three apexes or triangular). In fact, its particular geographic configuration, characterized from three capes, Pachino, Peloro and Lilibeo, are very well adapted to that figure to which the Romans imposed the same overall name for the Island. Perhaps from this configuration to the three apexes, the name Triquetra or Trinacria was given in the Hellenistic Age. That strange and characteristic representation at the same time, was of the Gorgon-like figure of three legs, and was even adopted in some coins of classic antiquity, and become the official symbol of the island. Philology supports that this last denomination is improper, while it is contended more that in Greek the Triskéles, is translatable into " three legs ".

Urnamma

11-22-2004, 23:03

Ok, I've said it before, I'll say it again... Greek hoplites of 500 B.C. and Greek hoplites of 270 B.C. are going to have some important differences. Once upon a time, there was this guy named Iphikrates. He made some important reforms to Greek warfare that revolutionized it and paved the way for Philip of Macedon. He got rid of the cumbersome bronze armor (relegating it to an elite corps within the hoplites that was to be in the hardest fighting) and replaced it with the much better (and lighter) linen. He got rid of the hoplon and replaced it with the an ovular shield that was known later as the theuros. He lengthened the spear considerably to anywhere between 10 and 16 feet long. He did away with the last vestiges of the Corinthian helmet and adopted lighter helmets with a broad amount of space for the face and cheek guards. Your standard Greek hoplite of 270 B.C. had an even longer spear than those used by Iphikrates (if we take the lengthening of the hellenistic sarissa to be an example, the Greeks probably would have had a weapon at least twelve feet long by 270 B.C.) and the theuros became a bit longer and narrower after it was redesigned after the gallatian attacks.

These 'Iphikratean' hoplites dominated Greek warfare until the assimilation of the Greek states by Rome. They also had armored cousins, but these seem to have been armored with mail, and so the bronze cuirass was relegated to such units as the 'spartan' hoplites in-game. Those units that were going to be in the thickest melee and needed protection over speed. The vast majority would have been armored with linen, maybe 20% with mail (the veterans) and maybe as little as 5% (the ultra-elite) with bronze armor, greaves and the older style hoplon shield.

here's a good source for part of what I'm talking about. Diadoros, Arrian, and Nepos can tell you the rest.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/Iphikrates1.html

As for unarmored hoplites, these were called the ekdromoi, and were not much used after the advent of the theurophoroi, the javelin armed soldier with a light spear who could beat the tar out of most peltasts.

PROMETHEUS

11-22-2004, 23:11

Well this seems to confirm then my Spartan reconstruction....

Urnamma

11-22-2004, 23:21

Prometheus, I've been arguing for your reconstruction the whole time. ~:cheers:

PROMETHEUS

11-22-2004, 23:50

Arguing means? ~:confused:

Urnamma

11-23-2004, 00:06

PROM:

Arguing = discutere... trying to prove your point.

PSYCHO V

11-23-2004, 00:50

Dead Moroz

11-23-2004, 00:53

MMM this is a bad mentality , If you dream the perfect world and do nothing to build it you will never get out of your hom , my politic is
Absolutely agreed. But it doesn't mean that we should build the house which will collapse after a week. If you build something build it to last.

FIRST BUILD , THEN REFINE
It's already built - the vanilla RTW! You are already refining it.

AS YOU HAVE SEEN I have made severall units and refined them severall times with some units starting from the Samnite ones ....
Great work! Why not to keep all your other work in such "high style"!?

Ok remake a better one post it to me and I will change the shield , untill then I will keep this....

I don't even notice them but if you see that there are then you will be able to correct them all when I release the package, as I said those are minimal errors , not historical accuracy ones....
Ok, just gimme your cas'es and textures so that I can correct them.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-23-2004, 01:12

MMM this is a bad mentality , If you dream the perfect world and do nothing to build it you will never get out of your hom , my politic is
We're not dreaming it. We're building it. Although not many can keep your pace at creating units.

FIRST BUILD , THEN REFINE

AS YOU HAVE SEEN I have made severall units and refined them severall times with some units starting from the Samnite ones ....
True. I'm not arguing with that.

I never said I was going to make fantasy units , I just try to make them as similar to what is supposed to be the unit at that period of time , men have different opinions , so historians , so what is certain for you may be completely wrong for someonelse , What I try is to please both to reach a compromise of perfection , the Spartan I did is the most accurate reconstruction od a 270 BC hoplit based on deductions , studies , plates comparisons and mergings , is not invented at all!!!
I never said you were making fantasy units!!! In fact, I praised you several times for your accuracy. I was just asking for a plate to compare it to, because I had a very different idea taken from my readings.

You can state by yourself that the pic doesn't shows what I reconstructed , Also you should not undervaluate the maniacism of Miniature painters that most of the time have better sources than historians wich this is the case
Yes, I know that most of them are extremelly well informed. I just need to see several examples to be convinced of their total accuracy.

Spartans used this pylos helmet countrary of what is believed in ancient classical history corinthian type , which may be you cna see in the Troy movie but not at this time unless for some other units...
Well, didn't you understood what I've said? I never questioned the use of that helm. Of course the corinthian wasn't used in that age. My problem is more with the cuirass than the rest.

also the picture you posted shows a thracian helmet wich is out of place to me for a greek hoplit ....
For you. But it could be correct because it was a standard by then. The same happened with the corinthian one some 150 years before. It became a standard.

But, as I've said before, your helm isn't the issue. I was just asking about the cuirass or linen armour.

I am working for recostructing units the more close to what they should like ...and this is why I joined this project , so once made the unit unless special errors if followed right principles of reconstruction , can be criticized but unless you bring a certain prove that this isn't correct then this is the better we can come to ....
I'm in no way criticizing your awesome efforts. I aplaude them. I just want our decisions to be perfectly justified and correct, not to run into problems later on. Just that.

also I had other plates and info on books about all the units I reconstructed as you have seen by the many plates I posted , But I got bored to scannerize every time I make a new unit so I preferred to pick up an image from internet that looks more close......
That is the point of the question. We can't be working for convinience. We must work for perfectionism. And, believe me, your work can achieve that. It already did with some other units. ~:)

Ok remake a better one post it to me and I will change the shield , untill then I will keep this....
That was for Dead Moroz, not for me, right? :confused:

PROMETHEUS

11-23-2004, 02:10

Actually U quoted parts for Deaz Moroz more than to you anyway ...here is the Secutor Wich I used to substituite the Mirmillo wich is similar to the Samnite and so I merged in the Samnite , He should use a sort of sword but the animations are with a spear so I will leave this unchanged to be changed later on since I use those units to play online too....

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/2199/aaaaaaa1.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-23-2004, 02:18

http://img93.exs.cx/img93/5373/frfrfeafefsdatgtr.jpg

Sicily mercenary hoplites....
Beautifull!!! Well done, PROMETHEUS!!! :2thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-23-2004, 02:22

PSYCHO V

11-23-2004, 02:35

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/symbol_gauls.jpg

OFFICERS

General :
Same model as Arverni but with bronze breastplate with ornate design, short conical helmet with vein / spike (Helvetii style) and wings, longsword

Lesser General :
Same model as Arverni but with mail vest and shoulder pieces, Conical Helmet with large cheek guards and Black Plume ..or this helmet
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/Stdhelmet.jpg

Unit Commander :
Same model as Arverni but with mail vest and shoulder pieces, Boar helmet, long sword, round shield

Standard Bearer : (In progress)
Helm, cloak, naked torso, Boar standard, long sword

Carnyx :
Duds, long sleeve shirt, carnyx, bowl helm

LIGHT INFANTRY

Tribal Militia : (In progress)

Gallic versions of Peasants yet still better skilled in fighting than other culture equivalent
Long hair, Gallic mow, long shirt, tartan trousers, oval shield, thrusting spear

Senone Slingers :

Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Dubious Morale under heavy casualties
(Long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, trousers, shoes, Sling, Pellet pouch slung over shoulder, Short Celtic Sword, Very small buckler usually slung over back).
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)

Aquitanian Archers: (In progress)

Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Low Morale
(Long plated hair, Gallic moustache, torque, long sleave shirt to thigh over trousers and tied around waste with belt, shoes, bow, quiver of arrows hung off left hip, short Celtic sword, No Shield).
(Can be raised in Southern Transalpine Gaul)

Bodvoritus (‘Running Wrath’):

Extremely Impetuous, Extremely Undisciplined, Good Morale, Very Good Stamina, Good Attack
(Long flowing hair, naked tattooed torso, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, chequered trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, arm guards, dirk and medium length (Halstatt) sword).
(Can be raised from Transalpine Gaul)

MEDIUM INFANTRY

Southern Warband: (Done)

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Shorter hair to nape of neck and spiked up with lime, Gallic moustache, torque, bangle around each wrist, naked chest, cloak fastened at right shoulder by broach, tartan trousers, shoes, throwing spears, long Celtic sword, rounded rectangular shield)
(Can be raised anywhere in Cisalpine Gaul and Celtiberia)
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/barb_south_warband_gaul_INFO.jpg

Northern Warband: (Done)

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Long hair platted, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, armlets, bangle around each wrist, trousers, shoes, throwing spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield)
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/BARB_NORTHERN_WARBAND_INFO.jpg
* Thinking about giving bowl helmet. Thoughts?

Veneti Bagaudam (‘Guerrilla Fighters’):

Disciplined, Average Valour, Dubious Morale, more easily achieve ambushes, receive bonus to attack when directly from ships or at night.
(Bronze helmet with thin horns, short dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, short sleave shirt in ‘faction colours’ with chequered borders to thigh over trousers and tied around waste with belt, short boots, spear, Celtic sword, strange squarish shield with wavy sides).
(Can be raised from Veneti (Armorica) Territory)
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/Veneti.jpg

Dubis Dusios (‘Black Demons’):

Impetuous, Very High Valour, Good Stamina, Very High Morale, Good Attack
(Bronze bowl helmets adorned with purple crest, short dark hair, shaggy black (goatskin like) shoulder-less tunic to above knee bound by thick Iberian belt, arm guards, greaves made of the same black material wound around shins and carves, excellent quality iron short two edged swords, dirk, Celtic oval shield in ‘faction colours’).
(Can be raised from Celtiberian ‘Gaul’)
*May ditch this depending on the Celtiberian work?

Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’):

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory / Gallic Capital)

HEAVY INFANTRY

Arverni Arjos (‘Nobles’): (Done)

Good Discipline, Low Valour, Easily Fatigued, Good Morale
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, wrist guards, shirt of mail over long sleeve tunic gathered by belt at waist, tartan cloak gathered on right shoulder with broach, trousers, short boots, long thrusting spears, long Celtic sword, shield).
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/arverni_arjos_INFO.jpg
(Can be raised from Arverni Territory, post Marian reforms if possible)

Carnute Cingetos (‘Warriors):

High Valour, High Morale, Good attack, Cause Fear against other Gallic units, Large Additional Valour and Morale Bonus against non-Celtic factions.
(Iron helmet with forward facing horns, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, stripped trousers in ‘faction colours’, Royal Blue cloak fastened on breast, short ankle boots, Long Celtic Sword, Round Shield).
(Can be raised from Carnute Territory)

CAVALRY

Leuce Epos (‘Light Horse’):
Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Morale
(Iron bowl Helmet with tri swirl cheek guards, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, bangle around each wrist, long sleave tunic over trousers and tied at waist by belt, shoes, round shield, throwing spears, long Celtic Sword).
(Can raise from any Celtic Area)

Brihentin (‘Elite Cavalry’):

Disciplined, Good Valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Excellent Attack
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet with faction-coloured plume, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, trousers in ‘faction colours’, cloak fastened on right shoulder by broach, short ankle boots, medium spear / lance, long Celtic Sword, Round shield).
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)

MERCENARIES

Gaesatae (‘Spearmen’):

Impetuous, High valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Very Good Attack, Long spear throwing range.
(Like to see slightly larger model of warband but with beefed up muscles, no trousers, small flap at front, Iron Helmet with black horse hair trail, long hair, Gallic moustache, Long Hexagonal Shield, throwing spears, Long Celtic Sword, large golden torque, armlets, bracelets and anklets.
(Can be hired from Gallic Territory)

Ordocorii (‘Hammer Troops’):

Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Stamina, Average Morale
(Short Horned (Thames styled) helmet, Long dark flowing hair, Woaded face and arms, Gallic moustache, Golden torque, Heavy Wrist guards, Sleeveless shirt and vest of chain mail over trousers, belt at waist, Tartan cloak, shoes, heavy war hammer, round shield)
(Can be hired from any Gallic coastal province)
* I’d actually like to see an event linked to war with Rome that Britons offer their services.

Mori Gaesum (‘Sea of Spears’):

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Very Good Morale
(Tall spiked iron helmets, long dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, red tunic with chequered borders gathered with belt over trousers, cloak same colour as trousers, shoes, Pikes, long Celtic sword, large rectangular shield with rounded edges)
(Can be hired from Helvetii territory)
http://www.r-kproductions.com/products/P54133.jpg
* Like to see event where Helvetii migrate

Teutones:

Disciplined, Excellent Valour, Good Stamina, Excellent Morale
(Hair dyed red and in pony tail, full beard, naked chest, short cloak, trousers, shoes, throwing spears, small square shield)
(Can be hire from border areas with Germans / German territory)

~:)

Vercingetorix

11-23-2004, 02:39

Excellent! This weekend we have holiday in the USA (thanksgiving) so I hope to work on some more Gallic units ~:)

PROMETHEUS

11-23-2004, 03:00

Are all those gallic units realistic ? I have never heard of Daemons, ravens or sea of spear units where did u took all this info? U used the Bello Gallico? or somewhere else?
since I don't remember those even in this book.... ~:confused:

PROMETHEUS

11-23-2004, 03:02

Thraex Gladiator , the equvalent of CA veliti....

Actually I deleted for error overwriting this model , so I will remake but I was undecise between this Thraex wich is close to the one CA made and instead the retiarius .... difficult task to make the net ......

or may be we could add the Scissor Gladiator to replace the arcani , actually they look very similar about for the cape .... even if the Arcani where really an exhisting unit in ancienRome , they where more a secret policethan a military unit so could be used to add a fourth gladiator unit ......so a rebel army of gladiators will ave

heavy samnite-mirmillons , scissor , secutor

light thraex retiarius

PSYCHO V

11-23-2004, 04:44

Are all those gallic units realistic ?

Yes, to the best of our knowledge.

I have never heard of Daemons, ravens or sea of spear units where did u took all this info? U used the Bello Gallico? or somewhere else?
since I don't remember those even in this book.... ~:confused:

All my research was posted and discussed to death at the .com about 2 years ago. Unfortunately it has been lost since, but I still have many of the books used.
The sources are from a whole myriad material, several dozen books by contemporary authors, archeological, anthropological and historical journal articles, and ancient texts including private letters. Basically anything that allows one to garner how the Gauls looked, fought etc within a geograhical context.

At work at the moment but from memory;

A) The term ‘black demons’ was garnered from a private Roman letter (describing the enemy encountered during one of the wars against the Celtiberians) and translated into Gallic. The actual description is from two books, can’t remember which ones.

B) The Raven is mentioned in just about any book one reads on the Celts. The Celtic goddess of the dead would take the form of a Raven and alight on the bodies of the fallen and cart their souls off to the after life. Hence the helmets were worn with Ravens to strike fear in their foe. The Raven Helmets are well attested in the archoelogical / historical record and scholars believe they tended to be worn by either elite troops and / or nobles.

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/Ravenhelm.JPG

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/Raven_Helmet.JPG

They are particularly noted around Bibracte the Aedui Capital. The Aedui were the leaders of the Northern Condeferacy from the mid 4th century BC on and pretty much represent the Gaul faction in RTW.

We know the Aedui had a special Royal guard. From memory there was a reference I found in Irish text which mentioned 'Raven Warriors' forming a special guard to protect an Irish King. So all the pieces were put together and the Aedui Royal Guard were afforded raven helms and called Bodubatae. The name is just the Gallic translation of “Raven Warriors” / plural. Highly likely that such a unit existed by this name but we can't prove it 100%

C) Same thing for the “Sea of Spears”. The Helvetii, as you would know from Caesar’s works used a form of phalanx formation. It is also attested in other fragments. They were very disciplined and well led.
The Celts, much like other native peoples tended to call things by names which had a direct meaning eg Boiorix ="king of the boii" , Eburones = "people who are protected by the yew-tree" etc etc
The Sea of Spears is the most likely Gallic name for such a formation and thus used as a unit descript.

Ranika

11-23-2004, 05:02

Pyscho V is correct, the units he lists are, as best can be researched, quite verifiable. The problem with offering a huge litany of sources, is the unique nature of the various regions of Gauls, and the soldiers they offered locally. That's why the more 'common' Gallic soldiers are easy to verify, they showed up in large areas, with a great deal of regularity. However, some occured in small numbers, but with regularity, in certain regions (a good argument for 'region specific' units, actually).

Ranika

11-23-2004, 05:31

I also do not mean to imply that the list is in any manner, incorrect, inasmuch as what we can know. But the Gauls did not write extensively, so we have to go off of what sources we can. Having a truly 100% accurate army, for any of the factions, is going to be impossible, But, we can come close. We will need to stretch things a bit, but believably. Even if there aren't a huge, vast number of sources, we can imply a great deal, with a good bit of accuracy, based upon digs, and descriptions. What we can assure is that what Pyscho V is offering are vastly closer to the real Gauls than the pure fantasy CA offered us. Pyscho V has used as good as sources as we'll be able to get, short of a bloody time machine. I have seen the same sources, and I'm sure some others will offer up a similar back up.

Of Mori Gaesum, have to name them something, and 'Sea of Spears' is a pretty good one. The early Irish and Welsh refered to the phalanx as a 'Sea of Spears', and such a name easily could've come from a more ancient source. It does match the kind of 'poetic' names the Gauls seemed to give things, using metaphor to convey an image of a vast number of spear heads, easily what they may have called the phalanx, and lingually proper.

Edit; For helmet for the lesser general, I'd opt for the one you've got a picture of, just because I think it's an interesting design that'll give a nice, truly unique flair to the Gallic armor.

Stormy

11-23-2004, 06:52

Superb unit update from all indeed ~:thumb:
No Thracian or German Unit/model update guys ? :worried:

PSYCHO V

11-23-2004, 11:21

I'm loving the work your doing Prom, great stuff ..

...but some of those unit pics are 1.5MB. It's killing my 56K :embarassed:

PROMETHEUS

11-23-2004, 11:51

Ok good you have good sources , I trust , but shouldn't we limit the Gauls to what is effectively described in the Caesar's Book? Anyway even if some of those should be more elite groups and be built only in specific regions and I guess may be some are from other celtic cultures than gauls may be briton , may be celtiberian , may be belgican , may be northItalian , may be caledonian or irish....

ok I will try to resize them more next time....

Also could some of you with good sources post some good very realistic plates about greeks at that given time , I have till the end of the Alexander empire , but is mostly on phalanxes and macedopnian armies.....

Also I hope we are going to use the naked barbarian mod since shows another reality of the celtic fighters ....

Urnamma

11-23-2004, 15:15

Great Gallic units!

I hope some of them are shared with the britons, because the rest of us want some unit space too ~:cool:

But seriously, great work. I'd buy all of you a guiness if you were around here! ~:cheers:

PROMETHEUS

11-23-2004, 18:06

In the fall of the Roman Republic Plutarch describes Cimbrian cavalry at Vercellae as wearing helmets like gape-jawed heads of terrible beasts heghtened with tall feathers plumes, as carring white shields , two javelins and a large heavy sword, wearing iron breastplates.

The helmet with the Raven is from the Ciumesti Maramunes in Romania , it is mounted with a bronze bird whose winged wings would flam in movement.....other helmets with mounted animals do appear in Gundership Cauldron . The romanian helmet was found with bronse greaves and mail corslet......

so according to this the helmet should be from Romanian tribes of Caelts not Gauls .......

also have been considered the Galitians???

Ranika

11-23-2004, 20:16

Many of those raven helmets were found in France, particularly in Normandy, Brittany, and areas around them. 'Irish' does not exist yet, Celtic Hibernia has just recently been settled by Celts in this period, who are of mixed Gaul/Briton/possibly Celtiberian extraction, but there are a few unique types of soldiers from there, one or two might be a nice regional unit for Briton/Gaul/Iberia. The units in Pyscho V's list are ALL of Gallic extraction, except for some of the mercs, and one which is Celtiberian (and I suggest we move to an Iberian unit).

The Gauls will not share units with the Britons, the Britons had a completely different military, based on tribal concerns, so mobility is more of a key for them. Gauls had steady kingdoms with large areas of land, and thus could afford themselves slower moving, but otherwise stronger forces, than one would find in Britain, which would look completely different than a Gallic military. Just because they were Celts, doesn't mean they actually had TOO much in common. A similar language, art styles, etc., maybe. But warfare was adjusted to their lifestyle, and the Britons lived a totally different life than the Gauls, so shared units would not make sense. However, we should have enough space for everyone's units. Aymar has already come up with some good ideas to cut down on the units already used, like a universal, rebel peasant unit, no one builds it, only shows up in rebellions, and cutting down, drastically, the number of siege engines by having them universal, since we can have different skins for the crews. There should be plenty of space for every faction to have a unique, interesting military, and still have room for mercs.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-23-2004, 20:22

Actually I deleted for error overwriting this model , so I will remake but I was undecise between this Thraex wich is close to the one CA made and instead the retiarius .... difficult task to make the net ......
IMO, you shouldn't make the Retiarius. It will be very dificult to make the net, specially because we can't remake the animation. I would prefer the Thraex. But that is up to you.

or may be we could add the Scissor Gladiator to replace the arcani , actually they look very similar about for the cape .... even if the Arcani where really an exhisting unit in ancienRome , they where more a secret policethan a military unit so could be used to add a fourth gladiator unit ......so a rebel army of gladiators will ave
No. No Arcanii. No Scissor Gladiator. Only the ones that are there. Besides the Arcanii has been deleted from the files.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-23-2004, 20:40

Ranika is very correct when commenting on unit space. The generic units, like siege engines and peasents, will be condensed in a single unit with several faction textures. We can have 300 max units, being 268 occupied in vanilla RTW. Just from deleting ahistorical and duplicates I'll reduce occupied slots to about 230 (I'm doing that for Alpha 0.3 as I write this post). Since a lot of the units are being remade from the ground up, like PSYCHO V's warbands, a lot of the "new" units won't even ocuppy unit space. So, on an crude estimate, we'll have about 70 free slots for new units, which means that we'll be able to add several new ones per faction (depending also on the number of factions available).

PROMETHEUS

11-23-2004, 21:57

I would say that for the romans should be

early legion to be redraw like the Caesar ones

the actual early legion to be named medium and the segmenta heavy since they where both used at the same time in the early empire......

PROMETHEUS

11-24-2004, 02:58

http://img115.exs.cx/img115/6603/cccc.jpg

PROMETHEUS

11-25-2004, 00:12

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/3883/cccc2.jpg

temporary version of the Equites....

final version

http://img105.exs.cx/img105/6603/cccc.jpg

PSYCHO V

11-25-2004, 05:53

Finally some realistic looking equites! Nice job Prom!

Is it possible to thin out and reduce the height of, the helmet train..thingy on top the helmet?

Ranika

11-25-2004, 06:08

The Equites look great, but should the tadh be so thick? Wouldn't it be rather stringy or thinner? (What's the English word? Is it Tadh? The hair that comes from the helmet, that thing).

OT: Pyscho V, thanks for the Briton input. Please clean out your PMs when you get a chance, and everyone interested check the Briton Group's thread for a very, very preliminary list (I expect many rewrites/removals, but have to start somewhere).

PROMETHEUS

11-25-2004, 08:58

Yes sure I can reduce the tail , but my concerns where more about the shield pattern ....what should I use???

Dead Moroz

11-25-2004, 11:49

Prometheus, some changes to equites should be done.

There is pic from Osprey's book (think, you already saw it... but one more time ~:) ):

http://img96.exs.cx/img96/551/equites.jpg

There are my recommendations:

http://img96.exs.cx/img96/1226/equit.jpg

I think you don't need to change the helmet in 3d model, it's possible to represent it's proper shape just by texture.
Also maybe you can depict harness more realistically (it's almost absent in vanilla units)?

eadingas

11-25-2004, 12:15

How about this for a shield pattern ~;) http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/Images/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/Topics/Warfare/weapons/parma*.gif

Seriously though, I think simple blue shield with golden umbo would suffice. There were many patterns on equites parmae, but most I could find are various golden patterns on blue, and some had no patterns at all.

eadingas

11-25-2004, 12:17

(hmm, you'll have to cut&paste the url, forum engine gets confused. yes, there's an asterisk in it)

PROMETHEUS

11-25-2004, 19:42

Yes I already tought to alter it in photoshop as well as add some other things like the red line.....

harness more realistically (it's almost absent in vanilla units)?

what u mean ?

The Wizard

11-25-2004, 20:33

Dead Moroz is completelly right on this subject. This is an Historical correction MOD. We're not making units because we feel like it. We are making them to simulate History in the best possible way. We prefer to be sure and make things perfect than to rush stuff just to release the MOD earlier. Speed is the enemy of perfection. :cool:
I partially disagree. We aren't only doing this to correct incorrect units, we're also taking unit speed, tactics and everything else besides units which we can mod (i.e. is not hardcoded) and which is historically innacurate and making it accurate, like we believe it's supposed to be.

At least, I thought that was the goal of this project.

~Wiz

PROMETHEUS

11-25-2004, 22:39

http://img95.exs.cx/img95/6603/cccc.jpg

Cretan archers......

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-26-2004, 03:00

I partially disagree. We aren't only doing this to correct incorrect units, we're also taking unit speed, tactics and everything else besides units which we can mod (i.e. is not hardcoded) and which is historically innacurate and making it accurate, like we believe it's supposed to be.

At least, I thought that was the goal of this project.

Of course. I wasn't just refering to the units part, but, in this particular case, we were talking about units...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-26-2004, 03:03

http://img95.exs.cx/img95/6603/cccc.jpg

Cretan archers......
They used javelins too? :stunned: I didn't know that... :confused:

Dead Moroz

11-26-2004, 10:19

http://img95.exs.cx/img95/6603/cccc.jpg
Cretan archers......
Are you sure they looked like this? And javelins... Can you show us pictures of ancient depictions or modern reconstructions, or text describing them?

Dead Moroz

11-26-2004, 10:31

harness more realistically (it's almost absent in vanilla units)?
what u mean ?
http://img97.exs.cx/img97/3806/harness.jpg

Ranika

11-26-2004, 10:32

Can the bright red saddle be removed as well? Skinned to look more like leather?

PROMETHEUS

11-26-2004, 11:52

The Greek and Persians at war 500 - 323 BC osprey met at arms series....

These arcers where mercenaries ans, part from the scythian archers were the only troops to be hired by Athenians as regular infantry.
They were employed in the same capacity as slingers and other light troops, either as psiloi or positionedamong the hoplite heavy infantry.
Their distinctive charateristic was the red chiton tunic.
They wore no body armour and their only protection was the small round bronze shield pelta.
As well as bow and quiver of arrows it is possible that they also carried javelins.

eadingas

11-26-2004, 12:02

Does the game allow them to use both bows and javelins, though?

PROMETHEUS

11-26-2004, 12:11

I think can be made , just adding the javelin skeleton , the problem is make them swithch from one to the other weapon .....

about the saddles just need time......

about my time , is now a bit reduced so expect less units , also there is a problem , I only made high cas not medium low and lowest , too boring doing them so I won't unless there is a way to make them starting by the original high cas......

Ahilleas

11-26-2004, 15:21

Are you sure they looked like this? And javelins... Can you show us pictures of ancient depictions or modern reconstructions, or text describing them?
Hello to everybody and congratulationsfor your fantastic job. Im comming from Greece, Im a graphic designer and great fan of ancient history.
I admire your effort for true historical representation of this game. I unfortunally dont know anything about 3d modelling but i can use photoshop REALLY good. So if any question or small task comes out im here.
Now about Cretian archers.
They were the only missile unit that wasnt included in the ''psiloi'' category in the way most others were. I mean they were archers by choice and not due to economical reasons. Thus they were far more better equipped than other regional archers. They carried a small round bronze shield (wich as Xenophon writes its flashing betrayed them during an ambush), they often had swords and many times light linen armor. Sometimes they reffered to have helmets but most commonly they were wearing a head band from wich as they say the nowdays traditional headband of Crete comes. There is a relief that depicts two Cretan archers and i ll post an image when ill find it. Also there is a good Plate in osprey's ancient greeks. In conclution Cretan archers were an elite unit and not just poor people with hunting gear.
I wish i had more time so i could commit more on this project.
Im here for any advice on units or names
Im sure that the outcome of this mod will make people in CA jealous. Congratulations again for your pursue of authenticity in a time where great epics traditions and history of ancient peoples becomes hollywood chewing gums. Lets prove them that we can have fun AND learn ~:cheers:

eadingas

11-26-2004, 15:30

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-26-2004, 18:03

Hello to everybody and congratulationsfor your fantastic job. Im comming from Greece, Im a graphic designer and great fan of ancient history.
I admire your effort for true historical representation of this game. I unfortunally dont know anything about 3d modelling but i can use photoshop REALLY good. So if any question or small task comes out im here.
Thank you for your compliment. We all like to hear that the work we're doing is apreciated by the community.

As for your skills, we always need a guy with good photoediting skills...

I wish i had more time so i could commit more on this project.
You can still join and contribute whenever you can.

Im here for any advice on units or names.
Care to join EB? :grin2: Maybe in your particular area of expertise? ~:)

Im sure that the outcome of this mod will make people in CA jealous. Congratulations again for your pursue of authenticity in a time where great epics traditions and history of ancient peoples becomes hollywood chewing gums. Lets prove them that we can have fun AND learn ~:cheers:
I believe you have it the nail on the head. You're right. With the contribution of everyone dedicated to a better Historical depiction of the period, including you, we will make something we will all be proud of. To play and learn (most of us are doing this last one already :wink:).

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-26-2004, 18:07

I'm not sure about javelin/bow combination. This should be tested, I think the game engine might not allow it. Also, this would mean that archers would have no melee weapon, and it really looks silly when a unit tries to fight with a bow (I've seen badly modded slingers hitting people in the head with slings, it's not pretty). I think just the bows will be enough... also, the shield you have is nothing like a Pelta shield - it's either round or Pelta - and it should be worn on a forearm instaed of in hand. You can't shoot and hold a shield at the same time.
I agree that there can only be one missile and one melee hability per unit. If we could have two per unit this wouldn't be a problem. But we can't. Therefore the Cretan Archers should have a bow and a sword of some kind. As for the shield, we only need to link it differently in MAX with the CAS plug-inn.

PROMETHEUS

11-26-2004, 18:08

I based my reconstruction exactly on what is showed to be the Cretan archer on the Osprey plate that I wrote so if you have take a look at it , bored top scannerize right now....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-26-2004, 18:57

I based my reconstruction exactly on what is showed to be the Cretan archer on the Osprey plate that I wrote so if you have take a look at it , bored top scannerize right now....
OK. I believe you. But we can't have two missile habilities per unit. Only one melee and one missile.

Parmenio

11-26-2004, 20:35

Curious, did the Creatan Archers use their javelins as missile or melee weapons?

Steppe Merc

11-27-2004, 19:54

Um... I assume everyone knows that there won't be any faction colors here, right?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-27-2004, 21:19

Um... I assume everyone knows that there won't be any faction colors here, right?
Not on units. But we'll have to have them on flags and on the campaign map.

PROMETHEUS

11-27-2004, 21:31

what about the tree roman factions then?

Colovion

11-27-2004, 22:24

I think those may be the exception - for certain kinds of high end units/sheilds etc.

Steppe Merc

11-28-2004, 00:45

Not on units. But we'll have to have them on flags and on the campaign map.
Of course. I mean no more green haired Thracians or purple Parthians, or a million other reasons why they shouldn't be there. As for the Romans, I don't know about them, but I assume that they never had seperate colors for the families. But their would be color on any units that would have them, so for the elite Romans or the red cloaks on the Spartans, or whatever.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-28-2004, 00:46

what about the tree roman factions then?
Well, most of them won't need colours. The Romans will need them because they are all equal in terms of units. That's the biggest exception, because most others will have unique units. What we mean by not having faction colours is that the unit design does not have to obey to the colours of the faction, like in the case of the Parthians. They didn't dressed in pink, as such, their units shouldn't be pink. The rest can have different colours when their units can't be distinguished. Like militia hoplites or peasents. It will depend on faction and unit.

PROMETHEUS

11-28-2004, 02:57

I agree....

PSYCHO V

11-28-2004, 09:07

Been thinking ... dangerous I know

I think the Northern Warband (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/NorthernWarband.jpg) may warrant a simple bowl helmet. Thoughts?

Ranika

11-28-2004, 09:11

Looks good to me, the north did employ helmets more often anyway, it'd be a good nod to that.

PROMETHEUS

11-28-2004, 12:13

, mmmm shouldn't have the cheeck guards?

anyway I was working on a Celtiberian skin and model , not finished it since I didn't know what unit should substituite and so to test it , I will upload here skin and model so you can take a test for me ? Or even perfectionate it?

mmm there is not a way to upload stuff here?

ok take a lookhere...

here (www.crimsonlegion.totalclan.com/celtib.rar)

http://img116.exs.cx/img116/2757/a111.jpg

PSYCHO V

11-28-2004, 12:58

Prom: If that's your Alpha, it's huge step in the right direction. Nice work

Re the NW helmets. Based on the right hand side guy (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/Gauls.JPG). The helmet was quite common in Transalpine Gaul

PROMETHEUS

11-28-2004, 13:21

If that's your Alpha, it's huge step in the right direction. Nice work

Thanx but what means? ~:confused:

Oh yes now I understood it ... Alpha version ,

well I wasn't sure about

Shield form , the sleeves long or short , colours of the greaves and face also the kind of pteruges.........any other errors?

Steppe Merc

11-28-2004, 18:09

Did they have that funky goatee? Just wondering, since I have no idea. But it looks quite nice though. But their seems to be an awful lot of red sheilds. Why did people like red so much? I hate red... But excellent job, and I realy like the helmet. I wonder if you could do a Boetian helm for the Macedonians...

WhiteWolf

11-28-2004, 22:32

lol the gotee looks cool but does not seem to be very gallic. When it comes to facial hair think of these people kind of like you think of dwarves, some of the tribes did actually prize their fuzzy faces that much. Like the model though, perhaps pinch the sleeves in a little and the skirt as well from the angle you gave the ss looks kind of like it sticks out. But then your men may be fighting screeching women so there might be a reson for the skirt sticking out :).

PROMETHEUS

11-28-2004, 23:04

Mmm??? what are you talking about ? didn't understood....

Anyway here is the final version.....

http://img12.exs.cx/img12/9486/a375.jpg

Ranika

11-28-2004, 23:36

Gauls did not much favor beards, though they did favor mustaches. Celtiberians, I thought were similar? I actually study the Gauls/Britons/Gaels more than the Celtiberians, so I'm not sure, but I think they would perhaps favor mustaches or to be clean shaven? Gauls, Britons, and Gaels, all, for example, removed their body hair, since it kept dirt close to the body. Wouldn't Celtiberians be similar? I'm not sure, because they were clearly influenced by the indigenous Iberian populations, so I'm just asking.

Urnamma

11-28-2004, 23:43

PROMETHEUS

There's still some problems... try making the shield more ovular. It wasn't a romanesque oblong shield, but more of an ovular one.

The rest of the model looks damn good. Damn good.

PSYCHO V

11-29-2004, 00:01

Brilliant!

Prom, sent you a PM

..and just re the Celtiberian look. They were influenced by the Iberians and tended to do away with the Gallic mow by the mid 3rd C BC, either having the ruddy stubble look or being clean shaven. There were a few tribes of what we would regard as Celts that kept a semblance of the Boii / Insubres / 'Southern Warband' look but these were in the minority. If we are doing accurate Celtiberians, they should reside in Central / North-Western Iberia.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-29-2004, 00:47

Preciselly. Celtiberians were a different culture from Gauls and populations beyond the Pirenees. They were of mixed ascendency but heavily influenced by Iberian culture. At this moment in time, they were mostly clean-shaven.

BTW, PROMETEUS, the shield must be straight and oval. Just like the Northern Warband shield. Not like the Romans.

Another note: I'm doing the Iberians, Lusitanians and Celtiberians. Concentrate on the others, ok?

Ranika

11-29-2004, 00:51

Yeah, I sort of realized that after my post. They had been with the other Iberians for so long in only makes sense that they would've adopted, rather heavily, the indigenous customs/cultures. However, I've read about effigies to Gallic gods and such in parts of the Celtiberian regions, so that made me a bit curious about how much of the former Celtic culture they may have retained.

PSYCHO V

11-29-2004, 00:53

Prom, your PMs are full so just dropping a note here.

Further to our discussion:
I'd appreciate the help (I can't do the 3d stuff and seems I've been deserted at this point by my associates :P ). I'll still need your email to send you the files.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quick question to Yall:

Do we know how to make the AI build our new units? Has anyone tested the campaign to see if the AI actually uses the new units?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh..and not sure if you guys heard about this. HUGE archeological find in France over the weekend! 470 objects, 5 almost complete carnyxs, 9 helmets etc etc! Shit I wish I was in France right now!

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20041127/capt.sge.jtt87.271104195716.photo01.photo.default-382x267.jpg

Check Here (http://www.adetocqueville.com/200411271651.iargp2i05705.htm)

Steppe Merc

11-29-2004, 01:01

I imagine that they would, since they do in one of the other mods that I played before the internal release here. But I haven't had any access to the new units. Mabye that could be rectified... ~D
Just kidding.

PSYCHO V

11-29-2004, 01:32

Ok, sorry for those who have already replied but anyone who wants to check some of the gaul units send an email to callmepsycho@hotmail.com and I'll send you the files tonight my / EDST / 11+ UTC time (in around 8-9 hours).

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-29-2004, 01:40

Ok, guys. For unit integration in Alpha 0.3 you better start sending me the data. For completelly new units this should include the 4 3d meshes (CAS), the texture (DDS) and the unit data. For 3d and texture alterations just the CAS and DDS. For re-skins just the DDS.

Steppe Merc

11-29-2004, 01:48

Has anyone at all worked on the Scythian/Parthians/Sarmatians? I'm glad at all of this work, but their all not my kind of stuff. Sadly I can't modify things at all...

PROMETHEUS

11-29-2004, 01:48

PSICO V I added you to my contacts in messenger , just open it....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-29-2004, 02:15

Has anyone at all worked on the Scythian/Parthians/Sarmatians?
Not yet. We'll get there. I'm pretty anxious because of those horse archers ridiculous look.

PROMETHEUS

11-29-2004, 02:15

http://img21.exs.cx/img21/4963/a308.jpg

Carthaginian Liby-Phoenician spearmen.....

PSYCHO V

11-29-2004, 02:28

PSICO V I added you to my contacts in messenger , just open it....

~D what's messenger? You don't have email?

Urnamma

11-29-2004, 02:29

The liby-phoenicians look great! The shield shouldn't have the meander.

PROMETHEUS

11-29-2004, 02:29

www.msn.com go there download the program wich is free and read how to install it , very usefull....

PROMETHEUS

11-29-2004, 02:29

What is the meander.???

Urnamma

11-29-2004, 02:33

The pattern on the rim of the shield design. The greek meander pattern.

PROMETHEUS

11-29-2004, 02:37

Why not? Aren't the Libyan mercenaries influenced by that style?

Steppe Merc

11-29-2004, 02:39

Not yet. We'll get there. I'm pretty anxious because of those horse archers ridiculous look.
Agreed. Not just the pajama guys, also the poor Scythians. In fact, they should all look pretty similar: very colorful kaftas, long black brown or blond hair, with either a Scythian cap or with a colorful "bandana". Baggy, colorful pants (not matching the kaftan). It will be a bitch to do the hair, but the kaftan shouldn't be that hard to do... just really recoulour the Parthian jacket. And the pants as well, but with changes.
Then theirs the heavy cavalry... :help:

PSYCHO V

11-29-2004, 02:42

www.msn.com go there download the program wich is free and read how to install it , very usefull....

I can't run messenger / IRC etc on my PC due to IT security settings.

PROMETHEUS

11-29-2004, 02:49

lower ur settings then ....

Urnamma

11-29-2004, 02:53

Why not? Aren't the Libyan mercenaries influenced by that style?

Partially, but they would not have used the meander. That was a Greek only thing. They should also have white tunics, not black.

PSYCHO V

11-29-2004, 02:58

Set by Parliament IT, not me. They've done funky things to the PCs which make them tamper proof. ~:handball:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

scratch that ...hacked my way in ~D :charge:

...wish I could delete posts ... miss that here ~;)

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-29-2004, 03:38

Agreed. Not just the pajama guys, also the poor Scythians. In fact, they should all look pretty similar: very colorful kaftas, long black brown or blond hair, with either a Scythian cap or with a colorful "bandana". Baggy, colorful pants (not matching the kaftan). It will be a bitch to do the hair, but the kaftan shouldn't be that hard to do... just really recoulour the Parthian jacket. And the pants as well, but with changes.
Then theirs the heavy cavalry... :help:
The hair will be no problem.

Waht is the problem with the heavy cav? :confused:

WhiteWolf

11-29-2004, 06:38

http://www.archaeolink.com/celts_ancient_celtic_civilizations.htmJust a good website to take a look at some historic celtic sources. One celtic culture you might want to take a look at in particular is the La Tene celtic culture. Hope that helps

Ahilleas

11-29-2004, 10:08

http://img95.exs.cx/img95/6603/cccc.jpg

Cretan archers......undefinedundefinedundefined
Kalimera(goodmorning) Promithea ~:)
Im quoting you about Cretan archers since you created them. From my information they didnt carry javelings at all. During classical era they might even had linen armor. Many vases showing armored archers archeologists think that their inspired from mercenary Cretan archers. Offcourse there are doubts cause they also may refer to Teukros(epic hero). There is a statue of an hoplite wearing linen armor and lion shaped cap targeting with bow that may be Cretan archer. Things are foggy as you can see and the only certain thing we have from hellenistic era is a drawing of a relief showing two friends, cretan archers, wearing tunics with a little bag hunging from their neck. The color of the tunic is unknown and its not bad to follow the example of Angus McBride who depicted a cretan with a black one. Its the traditional color in Crete for centuries. Also important is the head band.

Dead Moroz

11-29-2004, 10:28

Can anybody show pictures of Celtiberian warriors? I wonder that they have chain mail.

PROMETHEUS

11-29-2004, 11:22

There is a statue of an hoplite wearing linen armor and lion shaped cap targeting with bow that may be Cretan archer.

No the pictures you refer to are about the Athenians archers , a contingent kept by athen during the persian wars and they wore linen cuiras and lion skin .....

About the libyanphoenicians I used a plate and they are right as I made them , armies of the Carthaginian wars by Osprey.....

Ahilleas

11-29-2004, 12:57

[QUOTE=PROMETHEUS]No the pictures you refer to are about the Athenians archers , a contingent kept by athen during the persian wars and they wore linen cuiras and lion skin .....

Well as i told you the situation is foggy but there is no reference that the armoured archers were athenians. They were in athenians side. The lion metal cap propably wasnt a rule and because of its value many scholars say that propably this is rather a hero depicted or a mercenary who could afford it. By the way would it be much trouble to have hoplite units from different greek cities(the basic ones at least) have different ''Episimon'' (sign) on their shields? If its big trouble or consumes unit space forget it. Congratulations for your fine work.
Last request can you post an image of the spartan you develop?

Dead Moroz

11-29-2004, 14:08

http://img21.exs.cx/img21/4963/a308.jpg

Carthaginian Liby-Phoenician spearmen.....
Good work! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Just make them brighter and more colorful, please.

Urnamma

11-29-2004, 17:25

PROMETHEUS: They are not right as you made them and I'd appreciate it if you'd take the advice of people here who are actual historians and who have a command of primary source literature. If we have to fight with you tooth and nail to get units to look right it gets kinda frustrating. Carthaginians and their armies wore WHITE tunics, not black or red or green with yellow polka dots. Their shields are fine except for the meander pattern. Opsrey takes creative license, as do many who do these things. They are capable of making mistakes. Osprey plates are not gospel evidence. In Livy's Latin the Carthaginian armies are said to have white tunics. In Polybius's Greek they are said to wear white tunics. Primary sources always trump artistic renderings, however nice they are. BTW I have the osprey book that you're refering to, and the plate. You took creative license with the shield. It would not have the meander, but the rest of it looks fine.

I appreciate your skill, as does everyone here, but please stop being hard headed and listen to the input of others. We're working together here.

PROMETHEUS

11-29-2004, 19:27

I listen to objections otherwise I wouldn't post previews , but ... those are Chartaginian mercenaries not really carthaginian troops so they retained their original dresses , also about the shioeld half moon since I guessed this is a symbol of Carthage i placed on the shield too would take few to paint it , the motiph adds variance to the shield , suggest aniother one if u like but without it the shield would look empty ....I think also that the colors be darker adds realism to the whole and making them more colourfull would make them stick out of all the others and look more plastic and unreal ..... bright colours never exhisted in nature....

If we have to fight with you tooth and nail to get units to look right it gets kinda frustrating. Carthaginians and their armies wore WHITE tunics,

You don't have to fight for this , but since I have to listen to others people too I have to get a compromize , there are severall historians may be here , all with different opinins , me as well included this doesn't mean that me , you or someone else is right ,listening to ancient fonts is right , but sometimes as always they have many contraddictions so is better to rely on a media of opinions than on a single one....that is why befoure changing anything I want discussion and have severall opinions...since I may be wronga, but you as well...

Colovion

11-29-2004, 22:15

... I think they look great, but then again I'm not basing my opinion on "how they really should be"

Barbarian King

11-29-2004, 23:01

I would just like to say prometheus and everybody here is doing an outstanding job and i am really looking foward to this mod. The new units look great but i have no clue what they should look like. ~:cheers:

Steppe Merc

11-29-2004, 23:17

I think also that the colors be darker adds realism to the whole and making them more colourfull would make them stick out of all the others and look more plastic and unreal ..... bright colours never exhisted in nature....
I disagree. Their needs to be more color, espically for the Gauls and the Steppe warriors. They loved their colors... they never wore anything drab, espically the steppe horse archers.

Waht is the problem with the heavy cav?
Well the whole thing with the armour... not to mention them using a kontus with one hand. Also, the current cataphract is good really only for an elite noble unit, as most cataphracts would have been far poorer equipped, often not using horse armour at all, or perhaps half. Only the richest could use full horse armour... but it never covered the horses rump as it does in this game (horses do need to run and to poop, after all). ~D

PROMETHEUS

11-29-2004, 23:21

Their needs to be more color, espically for the Gauls and the Steppe warriors. They loved their colors... they never wore anything drab, espically the steppe horse archers.
Colour is ok but bright colours are not realistics...

Colovion

11-29-2004, 23:52

Colour is ok but bright colours are not realistics...

depends on the kinds of colors, I suppose

Guys, I think what PROMETHEUS needs is an example of the colors you require to make it better - doesn't the Osprey thread have all that, though?

Steppe Merc

11-30-2004, 00:00

Check out the Parthian guys in the secret thread, and my Celtic guys... who are around somewhere, I think in the original EB thread.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-30-2004, 00:19

Can anybody show pictures of Celtiberian warriors? I wonder that they have chain mail.
Don't doubt it. After all the Celts were the inventores of mail. It's proven that some of the descendents of Celtic invaders in Iberia had them. Here is one good pic:

http://img45.exs.cx/img45/1043/IberianHorseman-Celt-IberianHeavyInfantryman-IberianSwordsman.jpg

PROMETHEUS

11-30-2004, 00:23

Right the picture I used ~:cheers:

Urnamma

11-30-2004, 00:28

You don't have to fight for this , but since I have to listen to others people too I have to get a compromize , there are severall historians may be here , all with different opinins , me as well included this doesn't mean that me , you or someone else is right ,listening to ancient fonts is right , but sometimes as always they have many contraddictions so is better to rely on a media of opinions than on a single one....that is why befoure changing anything I want discussion and have severall opinions...since I may be wronga, but you as well...

Well, the relevant people to ask are me, [cF]HanBaal, and Aymar. Carthage is our area of expertise. I highly doubt you'll get a different answer from them.

I listen to objections otherwise I wouldn't post previews , but ... those are Chartaginian mercenaries not really carthaginian troops so they retained their original dresses , also about the shioeld half moon since I guessed this is a symbol of Carthage i placed on the shield too would take few to paint it , the motiph adds variance to the shield , suggest aniother one if u like but without it the shield would look empty ....I think also that the colors be darker adds realism to the whole and making them more colourfull would make them stick out of all the others and look more plastic and unreal ..... bright colours never exhisted in nature....

First of all, lemme say that you're absolutely right on bright colors. Only bright white, purple, and red existed in the ancient world, due to the dyes being available (for white, only certain chemicals were needed, akin to modern bleach).

Liby-Phoenicians are indeed Carthaginian troops. Every relevant source I've seen puts them wearing white tunics. History is not a democracy, neither is truth. Ergo, there should be white tunics. Why are you worried about this, I know why I am. I'm a near eastern historian, I get a bit uppity about stuff like this, but c'mon, having to debate this stuff in class does that to you. Your model looks great except for the white tunics and meander pattern on the shield. ~;)

I'll use reason here... They live in the desert. Most people in the desert wear light and airy clothing, and have a tradition of wearing white. It keeps heat out. Ergo, their tunics would be white.

As for the meander, source material never mentions it, and Carthage tended to dislike the Sicilian Greeks. The meander pattern was strongly identified with Greeks. Therefore, the meander would almost certainly not have been used.

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, you just tend to be a bit of a rebel, my friend. Working together is good stuff. We want this stuff to look as historical as possible, not as nice as possible. It'd be cool to have guys in gilded plate armor with embossed bronze inscriptions on the front and what not, but it didn't exist. So, we have to use something less out of a fantasy novel and more out of Diadoros, so to speak.

PSYCHO V

11-30-2004, 00:29

Yup, was going to scan and post that myself. Good job Prom. (get online Prom ~D )

Apologies to those guys expecting the celts units this morn. A few minor changes before we finally finish them.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-30-2004, 00:39

Regarding the other pics that were used for inspiration:

http://img45.exs.cx/img45/6716/Liby-PhoenicianHeavyInfantryman-CarthaginianStandard-BearerSacredBand.jpg

http://img45.exs.cx/img45/5854/CelticChieftain-CelticHorn-Blower-CelticStandard-Bearer.jpg

http://img45.exs.cx/img45/192/CelticHorseman-CelticSwordsman.jpg

Here are the Celts. I'll keep each book (Celts, Sarmatians and Parthians) in seperate posts.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt1.jpg

Early La Tene warriors, late 5th century BCE
Right, these chaps are slightly earlier than our time period, but I liked it as it showed the clothing and armor quite well, as well as showing that they all have shirts on. The old guy is a chieftan, and notice in addition to his sword he has mutliple spears. The Guy on the right is a well off warrior, while the one on the right is a simple free tribal warrior. All wear checked or striped clothes.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt2.jpg

Gallic Warriors of the Middle La Tene 35d- 2nd BCE
The naked guy is one of the Gaesatae, actaully a tribe that was famous for fighting naked. These would be similar to the Naked Fanatics, but note that he doesn't have the punk rock hairdo. The other foot soldier is frome the Marne district, and again has a shirt. The horsmen has the famous eagle helmet, and it's wings flap as he rides. He is quite well equpiied , and has iron mail. This would probably be a noble unit, but not that of the generals. Note the two javilens.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt3.jpg

Gallic Cavlarymen of the Late La Tene period, 1st century BCE
Some more Cavalry men. They again, all have shirts. They are more poor soldiers, their helms actaully being scavenged from Romans. In the desc there's an excellent part of Celtic horse strategy:
"These riders would normally throw their javelins immediately before contact; the heavier thrusting spear would be used at close quaters, and finnaly the sword might be drawn"
In the back, there's a dude with a celtic war trumpet that has a boar on it, possibly inspiring CA's choice to have on the unit flag of the Gauls a boar.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt4.jpg

British Chariot and Crew, 55 BCE
A beutiful picture of a chariot, sorry that the middle's a bit cut off, as it's a two page spread. The poorer driver (the one with woad on him) would manuever the chariot at incredible speeds, while their nobleman passenger would throw javellins. They would dismount to fight against infantry, while the driver would move the chariot off ready to pick up the nobleman.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt5.jpg

Celtic Light infantry types 1st century BCE, 1st century CE
Light infantry types, these do have no shirts, but that's because their all light infantry, and likely poor. The slingers were quite common, while the bowmen were rarer. The light swordsmen were supposedly quite good, but were deffeated by Germanic auxalries. The javileneers are young men not yet strong enough to trade swords with the grown men, so they used javilens instead as their main weapon.

PROMETHEUS

11-30-2004, 00:40

Quote from the osprey book

The African heavy infantry was equipped in the greek hoplite style until 117 bc when many where rearmed with captured roman mail shirts shields and pila . the rear ranks probably still retained the earlier long pike thus corresponding to the roman triariius and our figure shows such a soldier with roman mail but with the pike shield and helmet of the Macedonian type believed to have been adopted by the carthaginians....

this shows that they didn'nt dislike greek style and this is the reason why I used that pattern .... about the mail anyway this I guess would be a later unit may be and in beginning should use linen cuirass , about the colour I don't know , I saw other sources showing about red colour for this unit not the carthaginian army in the whole , for making all plain similar we could use white tunics but i doubt that there was such an homogenuity and anyway I don't care too muc for the colour , just think is more right the red , after all the phoenicians had the source of this colour .....

Urnamma

11-30-2004, 00:45

A fair amount of knowledge on Phoenicians and Carthaginians in particular was published around 1990. The Osprey book is a little out-dated...

Like I said though, if you want consensus, ask Aymar or [cF]HanBaal.

We already have an Elite African Infantry unit that shows Roman tactical influence on the list. The Liby-Phoenicians are the phalanx, from 270 B.C. onwards.

PROM, I'd love to collude with you on some units, but we need to agree on what to put down first before you skin it. That's avoid problems. IM me on MSN, if you like.

PROMETHEUS

11-30-2004, 00:46

great add me to your contacts so we can haev a better convo..... invite extended to all....

please read my email inmy profile....

PROMETHEUS

11-30-2004, 04:13

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/3008/a239.jpg

finallt elephants , but every units strongly needs all the cas files or the game will become unplayable since at severall distances the game changes model......

Ahilleas

11-30-2004, 10:13

goodmorning to all ~:)

Well guys maybe i dont know anything about 3d modelling but i know about colour and painting. So if you want an opinion this is what i have to say.
First theres got to be an overall same amount of detail in figures and colour hues. it shouldnt be a highly detail almost realistic unit side by side with a not so detail. See the mod as a painting. It has to have the same style everywhere. Not detailed here and less detail there. The same with colors. Look guys you cant copy nature in a pc game. The opinion that colors in antiquity were less bright is correct to a point but this is a game. Not life. Its fake sky and fake sun and fake enviroment and lighting so a drab hue will look more drab. For example the cover of prometheus for the elephant is detailed yes but the hue of this red looks alien on the elephant. There are many blues reds etc. You see any Angus McBride illustrated figure allien to its enviroment? No! Why? Because he had to use blue for example but he used the one that blended best with the rest colors. I have seen only the units posted on this thread. They are GREAT but they lack either contrast sometimes or the right color hue. We must be able to see units in the enviroment not confuse them for some bush. Im not trying to play smart i just wanna help.
Also the osprey books are great but not always correct. Its the interpretation of an artist not a photo from that time.
. For example the greek persian war book is simply unacceptable. Maybe the best thing would be when everybody working on units finish, one person or 2 max to revise the whole thing together so there wont look like bits of many games put together. Dont see the unit just as unit but also in relation with the backgrount its gonna be placed, in this case the fake 3d world of activision. And remember enerytime you put an overdetailed object as carpet or horse/elephant cover ask your self. Do i have same amount of detail on unit face? weapons? clothes? etc. Or will this element will steal the protagonistic role from what Really matters?
~:cheers: Im open to listen others opinions

Dead Moroz

11-30-2004, 10:29

I think also that the colors be darker adds realism to the whole and making them more colourfull would make them stick out of all the others and look more plastic and unreal ..... bright colours never exhisted in nature....
It's not the matter of realism, it's just the matter of visibility. You made these guys too dark, they looks like in nighttime. Details are hard to be seen and recognized. You don't need to make the color looks plastic, just brighten the unit to make it more friendly for my poor eyes.

Look at this pic. I just quickly brightened it in Photoshop using just default Shadow/Highlight option. Of course it's not ideal and must be done better, but it shows that units looks better and details are more visible when the picture is brightened.

http://img107.exs.cx/img107/1425/carth.jpg

Dead Moroz

11-30-2004, 10:37

Ahilleas, if I understand right, you have good painting skills. So, could you make some new textures to illustrate your point of view? Maybe you and Prometheus should cooperate?

PROMETHEUS

11-30-2004, 11:00

this discussion would go better on msn tough...

We must be able to see units in the enviroment not confuse them for some bush. Im not trying to play smart i just wanna help.

this is more needed with sprites , since at the close look they are easily recognizeable ....

Moroz you see it dark becouse I choose evening setting and I placed the units in the dark side with sun behind them so not illuminated , trust that when are in the sun they look too bright , that is why i place them everytime in this setting and position .....

Dead Moroz

11-30-2004, 11:08

Moroz you see it dark becouse I choose evening setting and I placed the units in the dark side with sun behind them so not illuminated , trust that when are in the sun they look too bright , that is why i place them everytime in this setting and position .....
Could you, please, show screens of these guys in day light?

PROMETHEUS

11-30-2004, 11:46

Sure here it is ...If you still think is dark then I am sorry but I think that is your monitor problem.... ~:)

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/4654/a240.jpg

PSYCHO V

11-30-2004, 11:59

Hmmm...think there pretty good..maybe a touch too dark in the mail.
To our budding artist, I wouldn't worry too much about balance. All units are being worked and reworked all the time.

As far as detail, we'll make them as realistic as possible without sacrificing performance. That's what this mod is all about, realism.

Eh Prom, you need to switch that MSN on when online and not just recommend it to others ~D

Ahilleas

11-30-2004, 12:02

Ahilleas, if I understand right, you have good painting skills. So, could you make some new textures to illustrate your point of view? Maybe you and Prometheus should cooperate?
Im a graphic designer and im fond generally for every form of fine art. From pencil drawing to pyrography on instruments. I would really like to help my only problem is limited time. But if you need something especially from photoshop just tell me wht to do and i can work over weekend. You see guys design design all day eventually i ll freak out. I can help you also with digitazation of ornaments symbols shield decorations etc. Also maybe you can post me some images of finished or nearly finished units and i ll make some remarks on contrast/color hue issues.
As general remarks though keep in mind that the whole result must have a aesthetic unity. Also the UNIT must have the most detail not the cover of its mount for example. Im saying it again cause its really important.

Dead Moroz

11-30-2004, 12:23

Sure here it is ...If you still think is dark then I am sorry but I think that is your monitor problem.... ~:)

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/4654/a240.jpg
Now I see they're ok. Thank you! ~:wave:

eadingas

11-30-2004, 12:25

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-30-2004, 22:01

Hmm I take it you wouldn't want to do some building graphics...?
HE!HE!HE! :grin: Recruiting?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

11-30-2004, 22:10

Im a graphic designer and im fond generally for every form of fine art. From pencil drawing to pyrography on instruments. I would really like to help my only problem is limited time. But if you need something especially from photoshop just tell me wht to do and i can work over weekend. You see guys design design all day eventually i ll freak out. I can help you also with digitazation of ornaments symbols shield decorations etc. Also maybe you can post me some images of finished or nearly finished units and i ll make some remarks on contrast/color hue issues.
As general remarks though keep in mind that the whole result must have a aesthetic unity. Also the UNIT must have the most detail not the cover of its mount for example. Im saying it again cause its really important.
I agree.

Please do join! No problem in working at your own pace. Just PM me to confirm the job assignement you prefer. I'll add you to the work list. ~:)

PROMETHEUS

11-30-2004, 23:03

here is the first model sinished to test out ....

weeell moved to hidden forum.....

Steppe Merc

11-30-2004, 23:28

Should the Carthagians use African Elephants? Because theirs a very good indian elephant model that's already in game, just not used.

First of all, lemme say that you're absolutely right on bright colors. Only bright white, purple, and red existed in the ancient world, due to the dyes being available (for white, only certain chemicals were needed, akin to modern bleach).
I think your wrong... blue deffinetly existed. They come from woad, and certaint sea shells I believe.

Ranika

11-30-2004, 23:47

A great number of colors existed. Gallic cloaks, for example, often included many colors, indigos, reds, blues, hues of pink, green, yellow, etc. Just because dyes and such were scarce in certain regions hardly means everywhere lacked them. Many colors were plant extracts, but some were also made chemically, from oxidized metals and such (such as the blue body paints used in parts of Britain, not all of that was actually woad, but it produced a similar color).

Colovion

12-01-2004, 03:02

I think one thing we have to remember is that certain units WILL be drab, not eye catching or really remarkable by the colors in which they are portreyed; more of those units will be remarkable by the detail and realism they invoke - not so much the eye catchingness of them.

Ranika

12-01-2004, 03:16

It's not a matter of being eye catching or remarkable, it is realistic for certain factions to have colorful soldiers. However, correctly so, many soldiers are drab and not colorful, but that doesn't mean all of them are. Even the colorful soldiers shouldn't have too bright of colors, simply because it'd look a bit cartoonish, fabric gets dirty and darker, but they'd still be fairly colorful. However, those would be exceptional soldiers, the Gauls used a lot of colors, the Britons used plenty (they both had copious amounts of dyes, and a great deal of knowledge on how to extract and make them), but most factions would employ simpler colors, and simple paints and dyes.

Parmenio

12-01-2004, 08:52

PROMETHEUS

12-01-2004, 10:54

I think this one was already made by Aymar , but not sure....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-01-2004, 21:07

I'm supposed to be doing Ptolemaics, and I will - but I'd already started on this one and decided to carry on to familarize myself with RTW's quirks and whatnots.

It's supposed to be a Celt-Iberian Light Scutari.

http://img83.exs.cx/img83/7105/TEst01.jpg
It's a good work, but I'm already working on them. The tunic looks funny though.

Regarding this unit issue, please concentrate on the units of the faction(s) you have choosen. If anybody wants to work in the units of another extra faction or factions, please tell me first, for me to include you in the worklist. It will make my job easier and will avoid repetition work like this one.

Parmenio

12-01-2004, 22:19

Fair play, it was mostly done to get the feel for CA's model system.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-02-2004, 01:18

Fair play, it was mostly done to get the feel for CA's model system.
No problem. I did the same with other units...

PROMETHEUS

12-03-2004, 01:12

http://img118.exs.cx/img118/9302/6f-a.jpg

Gaul Standard bearer , I just worked on the helmet and some image of the skin still something has to be done but mostly on the skinning , the boar was made by Vercingetorix , I will pass again this to Psicho V....

Stormy

12-03-2004, 01:30

OMFG ~:eek: I like, I like.. Good job PROMETHEUS!!

Urnamma

12-03-2004, 01:43

Very nice work PROM!

Working with the group is fun, isn't it ~:)

This is for you :balloon2: ~D

PROMETHEUS

12-03-2004, 01:44

I just did the Helmet and resized the boar nothing else the rest was made by someone else......

Steppe Merc

12-03-2004, 02:48

I wish he had a shirt... I hate shirtless non- Romans...

Urnamma

12-03-2004, 02:51

I wish he had a shirt... I hate shirtless non- Romans...

Do shirtless Romans get you hot under the collar ~;)

[cF]HanBaal

12-03-2004, 03:35

eheheheh nice one Urnamma, that was my first thought too :grin:... but then I realised... a shirtless roman soldier = a dead pilaged one... that's what makes Steppe Merc 'hot' ~;)

[cF]HanBaal

12-03-2004, 04:09

Gaul Standard bearer , I just worked on the helmet and some image of the skin still something has to be done but mostly on the skinning , the boar was made by Vercingetorix , I will pass again this to Psicho V....

nice helmet Prom and whoa, nice 3d boar in that standard Vercingetorix ~:eek: ! I wish you could make some standards for Carthage too.... here's the most common standards and my personal rank in case you wanna give us a hand:

1- the Barcid standards:
http://www.benidormytu.com/regiones/murcia/cartagena/carthagineses_y_romanos/desfile4.jpg
the one in the right...aint that a pretty one...

---

2- the horse in front of a palm tree... also very common:
http://www.benidormytu.com/regiones/murcia/cartagena/carthagineses_y_romanos/desfile6.jpg

---

3- the one in the left with the crossed swords... another common one
http://www.benidormytu.com/regiones/murcia/cartagena/carthagineses_y_romanos/desfile11.jpg

btw, what do you think is the most apropriate Urnamma?

PSYCHO V

12-03-2004, 04:22

Helmet is looking better Prom. Got another angle?..can't quite see it clearly.

Any luck with the arms?

I wish he had a shirt... I hate shirtless non- Romans... _ Steppe Merc

The problem is that we get only ONE standard guy for every period and every Gallic tribe. This would have been the most common appearance throughout RTW.

PROMETHEUS

12-03-2004, 11:20

bTW i LIKE MORE THE THROUSERS IN ur picture , I noticed the arm , but tought wasn't my responsibilioty to adjoust it .. someone has to have for error moved sme vertices there .....anyway I see a problem here that unless has been resolved it makes useless to continue working on this standard bearer and others.....oh abnd here the standard is little...see....

http://img45.exs.cx/img45/5854/CelticChieftain-CelticHorn-Blower-CelticStandard-Bearer.jpg

the standard bearers of all the barbarian tribes share the same cas so if I placed this gaul with boar all other barbarians have to use the boar and this is not very good ....so have you solved this problem? otherwise is better to go back to the old standard bearers , and also I would say that if instead there is the possibility to have a standard bearer for every faction with a different cas this will imply the consuption of free slots of units? is so is this really worth it? ~:handball: ~:handball: ~:handball:

PSYCHO V

12-03-2004, 12:11

OK, a few questions that are rather important:

1) The unit limit, what defines a unit slot? The name, the stats or the Cas?

For example, can we have numerous units using the same cas but differnet skin without using extra positions? Can we have numerous units using the same stats, name but with different skins and cas?

2) Mercs. Can someone give a definitive answer as to whether we can limit mercs to certain factions?

Prom , Verci's had a look at the arm. I think he'll be able to fix it. It appears it was actually something CA messed up on. Re: the size, I understand your rationale but the artist hasn't quite got the proportions right in that pic imho.
Can you send Verci and I your cas and Tga for the SB?
Have you finished the Celtiberian? Mind if I have a look at those files too?

Cheers

Urnamma

12-03-2004, 14:17

2) Mercs. Can someone give a definitive answer as to whether we can limit mercs to certain factions?

Tried it on my own not too long ago. We can't...

[cF]HanBaal: The one with the crossed swords for the Elite African infantry shields.

I love the banner with the elephants for the standard bearer, if anyone wants to do that.

PROMETHEUS

12-04-2004, 01:46

Posted it back to Verc....

DeadRunner

12-04-2004, 01:47

nice job prometheus

PROMETHEUS

12-05-2004, 02:32

http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7452/a6db.jpg

Sacred Band Cavalry......

PSYCHO V

12-05-2004, 14:41

Gallic Standard Bearer is pretty much done. HUGE thanks to Verci and Prom for their brilliant work. Great stuff guys!

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/SB2.jpg

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/SB1.jpg

Ranika

12-05-2004, 14:45

Great looking cavalry and standard bearer, good work. I for some reason expected the standard bearer's sword to be shorter (not that I'd want it to be), but I guess that's memories of the table knives everyone seems to be swinging at eachother in vanilla.

PROMETHEUS

12-05-2004, 15:57

doubleed post ...... ~:handball: ~:handball:

PROMETHEUS

12-05-2004, 15:59

I think the colours u used don't work , never seen a plate with a gaul with red capes , they also mostly used tartanlike throusers , those are linear ones ,...more like the osprey plate I mean.....also when I looked at the model the mantle gives a bad sight with the franges pieces looks too artificial should be placed back as a whole and may be just spotted of mud but not cutted ...and also a bad clipping issue of the standard bearer when he sits should be corrected whith the cape on the back side......other than that still _Noone answered me if those standards will be different for every faction since all the barbarians share the same model and actually now all barbarians should have the boar ......

Steppe Merc

12-05-2004, 17:51

I like those units. That sacred band cavalry, what faction is it for? It looks like it has a Macedonian sunburst on its shield. Rember we don't need faction colors anymore.
Also, I'm almost a hundred percent sure that the muclsed cuirass was extremely uncomfortable on horseback. I think a different sort of armour would be used for the chest, but I'm not sure what sort.

thrashaholic

12-05-2004, 18:18

I don't know if anyone's noticed, and I don't mean to complain, but the Gallic standard bearer's left hand (the one holding the standard) is the wrong way round, it looks quite strange. To be anatomically correct his palm should be facing inwards (rather than outwards as it is at the moment). A small detail I know, but it makes a difference. ~:)

Otherwise keep up the good work ~:cheers:

PROMETHEUS

12-05-2004, 18:20

I'm almost a hundred percent sure that the muclsed cuirass was extremely uncomfortable on horseback. I think a different sort of armour would be used for the chest, but I'm not sure what sort.

Actually I agree but I just made the model on Urnamma instructions , I think that a linen cuirass would have been more suitted.....

Steppe Merc

12-05-2004, 18:35

Thanks. I thought that the muscled cuirass wasn't used for horseback, but I wasn't quite sure. I wonder why everyone has it though...

[cF]HanBaal

12-05-2004, 18:37

I like those units. That sacred band cavalry, what faction is it for? It looks like it has a Macedonian sunburst on its shield.

That's the Carthaginian Sacred Band Cavalry, and a very pretty one ~:)

About the shield symbol, Urnamma wrote: "opaque white five pointed star in the center (Astarte’s holy sign)". I think I dunno this five pointed star (israeli one?) but the one now has 8 points.

A couple more details Prometheus: the sword is missing (hanging around the waist maybe?) as well as the lamelar armour around the horse's front:
http://www.hat.com/Othr3/kup01s.jpg

And finally, is it possible for the horses to be black as Urnamma suggested (white would look cool too if black doesn't work out)?

---

About the armour, Sacred Band Inf wore iron cuirasses indeed so the resemblance to their cav counterparts shouldn't be that difference in what armour concerns. However, if you're sure that would be extremely uncomfortable to use, Steppe Merc, maybe we could use a lamellar armour or even linen. The muscled cuirass looks d*mn cool though... :P

PROMETHEUS

12-05-2004, 20:52

http://img54.exs.cx/img54/8964/i5ka.jpg

Sacred band infantry with linen cuirass.....

Stormy

12-05-2004, 21:08

Once again guys, Great work :bow: :bow: :bow:

Steppe Merc

12-05-2004, 21:12

I think that it would make more sense for them to have linen on horseback, at least. But that's just my opinoin. But I have read that muscled cuirass was uncomortable on horse.

Stormy

12-05-2004, 21:20

I would like to see a pic of all the new Carthaginian units in one picture all together if it isn't a problem :guitarist: Carthaginians is one of my favorite factions.

PROMETHEUS

12-05-2004, 21:49

I think both should have linen unles urnamma post a source where is stated that they used muscle cuirass......

[cF]HanBaal

12-05-2004, 22:02

I think both should have linen unles urnamma post a source where is stated that they used muscle cuirass......

"The Sacred Band at Krimisos in 341 BC are described (in Plutarch's "Life of Timoleon") as wearing iron cuirasses and bronze helmets, with huge round white leather shields - probably plain white, with no blazons."

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/shields.htm

BTW, Prometheus, why do you always leave a blank space in the balls' zone, with no leather stripes? AFAIK, the leather stripes covered all that space too. In the horses look ok as it would be sort of uncomfortable but not on infantry.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-05-2004, 22:04

http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7452/a6db.jpg

Sacred Band Cavalry......
Excellent work, but there is an error. You've incurred in the same error as CA. Metal Cuirasses do NOT have shoulder straps, let alone leather ones. The front and back parts are articulated through hinges and they are fixed by small straps on the sides (under the arms). Please correct that.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-05-2004, 22:05

http://img54.exs.cx/img54/8964/i5ka.jpg

Sacred band infantry with linen cuirass.....
Excellent work!!! :thumbsup: But is the shield symbol correct?

Steppe Merc

12-05-2004, 22:13

Rember that quote is from 341 BCE... Besides, ancient historians aren't exactly the best sources... as they tend to know nothing about real battle. I still think that they should have the linen cuirass.

PROMETHEUS

12-05-2004, 22:23

Carthaginian Shields
The evidence for the shields of Carthaginian citizen troops is summarised in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars", by Duncan Head.

It depends on the date of your army. The Sacred Band at Krimisos in 341 BC are described (in Plutarch's "Life of Timoleon") as wearing iron cuirasses and bronze helmets, with huge round white leather shields - probably plain white, with no blazons. Then there is a big gap lacking in reliable evidence, until the Third Roman-Punic War, when Strabo describes Carthage manufacturing thureoi - oval, Celtic- or Roman-style, shields.

Between these points, Greek-style hoplite-shields do appear in Carthaginian art, so it is probable that the citizen troops carried these until they adopted the oval shield - whenever that was. Silius Italicus' epic Latin poem the Punica describes troops "from Carthage" in Hannibal's army as barefoot, wearing red, and armed with swords and round leather shields - he uses "parma", the term used for the shields of Roman velites and cavalry, and thus probably implying a fairly light shield. But it is far from clear whether this is a realistic description or, like many of Silius' details, a fanciful poetic embroidery; and if it is a realistic description, it is also not clear who is being described.

Finally, the Chemtou monument is a Numidian royal construction of the 2nd century BC probably commemorating victory over the Carthaginians in the Third Punic War, when Numidia was a Roman ally. This depicts large, unblazoned, oval shields, and round shields with varied blazons in Greek style, including an eye, Herakles' club, Zeus' thunderbolt, and Athene's aigis. It is possible that one or both of these shield-styles copies Carthaginian equipment taken as trophies in this final war; but then again, they may be Hellenising artistic convention.

For Carthaginian citizen troops of the first and second Roman-Punic wars, I would be inclined to use hoplite shields, painted white, with individual blazons mixing Greek emblems and motifs taken from Carthaginian art such as horses, palm-trees, the "Hand of Baal" and the "Sign of Tanit". But that is largely guesswork.

According to this I have used

Moon symbol for the normal units,

Baal Symbol for the Sacred Band phalanx

Astarte simbol for the Sacred band cavalry

BTW, Prometheus, why do you always leave a blank space in the balls' zone, with no leather stripes? AFAIK, the leather stripes covered all that space too. In the horses look ok as it would be sort of uncomfortable but not on infantry.

because the game stretches this when they walk and looks ugly ......

Excellent work, but there is an error. You've incurred in the same error as CA. Metal Cuirasses do NOT have shoulder straps, let alone leather ones. The front and back parts are articulated through hinges and they are fixed my small straps on the sides (under the arms). Please correct that.

Is not an error Urnamma asked me to place it so I did , Anyway I amstill in doubt that those metal cuirasses should be used , Actually I am in doubt that the Sacred Band should be used since was disbanded time befoure the punic wars.....

But is the shield symbol correct?

http://www.relst.uiuc.edu/Courses/106/Late%20Bronze/hazor7a.jpg
Offering table with the circular symbol of Baal carved on the side. .....

Dunno if was used but according to ur description this is the only good one I guess

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-05-2004, 22:59

Is not an error Urnamma asked me to place it so I did , Anyway I amstill in doubt that those metal cuirasses should be used , Actually I am in doubt that the Sacred Band should be used since was disbanded time befoure the punic wars.....
Then Urnamma is mistaken. Shoulder straps with linen armour, yes. With metal cuirasses, no.

As for the SBI, regarding history, although we know that they were disbanded before our time period, we do need an elite phalanx for Carthage so it should be used anyway. Besides, if we ever set the date earlier it won't be a question anymore.

http://www.relst.uiuc.edu/Courses/106/Late%20Bronze/hazor7a.jpg
Offering table with the circular symbol of Baal carved on the side. .....

Dunno if was used but according to ur description this is the only good one I guess
Fine by me...

Urnamma

12-05-2004, 23:31

Urnamma

12-05-2004, 23:33

Sacred Band infantry should have muscle cuirass too, btw, not Linen. Remember, the Carthies copied off of the Sicilian Greeks, who still used the older fighting methods and technology (because they had no impetus to change it due to their not having contact with the Galatians and the Macedonians, let alone the Persians). They should be armored as a heavy hoplite, not as a lighter hoplite. IMHO, of course :book:

PSYCHO V

12-06-2004, 00:01

DemonArchangel

12-06-2004, 00:07

Then Urnamma is mistaken. Shoulder straps with linen armour, yes. With metal cuirasses, no.

As for the SBI, regarding history, although we know that they were disbanded before our time period, we do need an elite phalanx for Carthage so it should be used anyway. Besides, if we ever set the date earlier it won't be a question anymore.

Fine by me...

Excuse me?

You're the same guy that said Palestinian clubmen and Equites Sagitarii weren't allowed.

Steppe Merc

12-06-2004, 00:27

He's the boss. He has the final say... Besides Clubmen? That sounds very fishy to me, and besides, their pretty much like peasants. It's a waste of unit space.
Besides, theirs a difference between older units, and units that haven't appeared yet. The older units likely go on longer than they are last recorded.

DemonArchangel

12-06-2004, 00:32

The clubmen aren't peasants, they're heavily armored, and carry a 6 foot long, metal studded club.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-06-2004, 01:27

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects97/armour/muscle/muimage/MU1.JPG

Aymar, you're mistaken on this one. Check out the pic of the guy with the cuirass on. It clearly has shoulder straps. They should stay. :bow:
HE!HE!HE! :grin: I knew you would say something like that. I even know the site were you got that pic from. But as PSYCHO V said that is a pic from a leather armour. Like this one:

http://img54.exs.cx/img54/7746/u2khadrian01.jpg

Effectivelly, in most Roman cerimonial metal armour, specially the important generals or it's guard, the artisan making the armour would include imitation "straps" made of metal. This was made to replicate the look of the leather cuirasses in the above image. But these were an ornament. They were extruded from the metal of the cuirass, they weren't a separate part. You still rellied on hinges to articulate the front and back metal parts and the tightening was made with small leather straps on the sides (almost invisible). You can see this clearly if you look closelly any statue of Caesar or Augustus.

Prima Porta Augustus. Embossed muscle cuirass with a single row of pteruges attached at the shoulder openings and to the bottom edge of the cuirass. Vatican Museum.

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects97/armour/muscle/muimage/MU3.JPG

Detail of the lorica of the Prima Porta Augustus. Vatican Museum (Robinson 1975: 152).

You can see the hinges in the topmost part of these photo.

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects97/armour/muscle/muimage/MU4.JPG

And in this one:

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/users/morford/aug13.jpg

The "real" battle worthy cuirasses were like this:

Bronze metal muscle cuirass, Etruscan 5th to 3rd century B.C. Showing hinges and tie rings located on the left side. British Museum (Robinson 1975: 147).
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects97/armour/muscle/muimage/MU2.JPG

Athenian Hoplite circa 300BC:

http://img52.exs.cx/img52/5894/w7wathenianhoplite30.jpg

See? No shoulder straps. They should be taken out. :bow: