Unit Screenshots

[Stormy]

@ PROMETHEUS :thumbsup:
I really like the shield on the back and it looks very good.

[PROMETHEUS]

leather armour...

LEATHER ARMOUR WASN'T USED BY ROMANS IS A hOLLIWOOD INVENTION FOR MAKIN MASSIVE SCALE ARMOURS BUT THEY WHERE A FAKE !!!

[PROMETHEUS]

Also I want to say that this Sacred band should be available by beginning and be not buildable again so will bea unit destined to extincion since so was historically ....I want to know what to use for the phalanx too ... also Urnamma described another elite unit the Afrivcan unit so there is another elite unit.....

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

LEATHER ARMOUR WASN'T USED BY ROMANS IS A hOLLIWOOD INVENTION FOR MAKIN MASSIVE SCALE ARMOURS BUT THEY WHERE A FAKE !!!
Then that English reenactor is ridiculously wrong? Prove it.

And why should Augustus statues use shoulder straps AND hinges too? The straps aren't connecting anything. They are just there for embelishment. Nothing else. Why would the Romans put shoulder straps in the metal cuirasses if not to imitate the shoulder straps of leather armour and mail?

[Odysseus]

Come on, stop arguing about shoulder straps and hinges. How many players are going to go "Look! They have shoulder straps and they had hinges at this time! I'm never going to play this game again!". Soon you'll be arguing about the Sacred Band Infantry having mustard stains on their shirts......

[Stormy]

They are not arguing Odysseus, They are only exchanging ideas. We are trying to make the units somewhat accurate and historical. We are only doing positive criticism ~:cheers: and that is part of a working team. ~;)

[PSYCHO V]

Please people!!

There were no "Palestinian" anything in this period. It's pure fantasy!

That my dear friends is fact, so can we please move on and focus on what really did exist.

Thanks ~:)

[Dead Moroz]

http://img24.exs.cx/img24/7452/a6db.jpg
Sacred Band Cavalry......
Good work, Prometheus! Just correct two things:
1. The shield must not be behind the back. It's march order. In battle such shield is useless. They must hold it in hand like any other units.
2. Maybe it's just me but something should be done with their faces. It's too blurry. And they looks like they gonna cry right now. ~:mecry:



http://img54.exs.cx/img54/8964/i5ka.jpg
Sacred band infantry with linen cuirass.....
Marvellous! :thumbsup:

[PROMETHEUS]

1. The shield must not be behind the back. It's march order. In battle such shield is useless. They must hold it in hand like any other units.
2. Maybe it's just me but something should be done with their faces. It's too blurry. And they looks like they gonna cry right now.


1 U are right to me but Urnamma asked them to have like this ...

2 U are right here too , but this is a previous pic , now I already fixed it and the lances too.... ~D

[eadingas]

If they have shields like that they shouldn't get shield bonuses... Unless this is a special coward shield for retreating :)

[hellenes]

First THE MOD ROCKS!!!!
I think the CA should hire you guys so they make some proper games....
Are you planning anything about the "egyptians"?
Please make them logical in the present condition i feel like im a retarded 10 yeras old...
Also Can Someone PLEASE make the pikemen to hold their 22 feet pikes WITH BOTH HANDS?
Keep the good job...

Hellenes

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

If they have shields like that they shouldn't get shield bonuses... Unless this is a special coward shield for retreating :)
ROTFL :laugh4: This one is priceless... :thumbsup:

[Dead Moroz]

I think the CA should hire you guys so they make some proper games....
Would you talk to them about me? ~:rolleyes:


Are you planning anything about the "egyptians"?
Planning... But do you maybe want to join our team to make this job? ~;)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

1 U are right to me but Urnamma asked them to have like this ...
Please, PROMETEUS!!

Linen Armour + Shoulder Straps = OK

Metal Cuirass + Shoulder Straps = NOT OK

If everyone else has a different oppinion, at least make the shoulder straps be made of metal, like in Augustus statue... :sad:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

First THE MOD ROCKS!!!!
Thank you in name of all the EB team. :bow:


I think the CA should hire you guys so they make some proper games....
HE!HE!HE! :grin2:

Well, Dead Moroz has a different oppinion than mine. I would not be able to work under the tyrannical pressure of Activision's vision of the world... :rolleyes:


Are you planning anything about the "egyptians"?
Please make them logical in the present condition i feel like im a retarded 10 yeras old...
Yes. Fancy New Kingdom Egypt headresses are going the way of the dodo. They are being remade from the ground up. Stay tunned for more... :wink:


Also Can Someone PLEASE make the pikemen to hold their 22 feet pikes WITH BOTH HANDS?
Very complicated, but we are going to try it.


Keep the good job...

Hellenes
Thanks again. We will. :bow:

[Urnamma]

About the Sacred Band cav...

The shield is in the correct position, and they should not get a shield bonus. The Sacred Band used the Xyston, which as we all know, utilized two hands. The shield was used when they dismounted and fought on foot with their swords. It was slung across the shoulders when they were on horseback. Also, with cavalry warfare, you are often exposed from the back after a charge. The shield will help protect from a shot to the back. You don't charge at a line then stop at the front, you charge into a line and go into it ~D

Aymar, you're right about the muscle cuirass. The straps should be removed.

-----------------

hellenes: The Ptolemaic unit list is pretty close to done. Join us and comment on it!

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar, you're right about the muscle cuirass. The straps should be removed.
Thank you so much... :bow:

Have you heard that, PROMETEUS? Start working!!! :whip:

:joker:

[PROMETHEUS]

I would like to see the reference of this muscle cuirass can I so otherwise I could change them to linen wich is more appropiate to me..... :book:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I would like to see the reference of this muscle cuirass can I so otherwise I could change them to linen wich is more appropiate to me..... :book:
That is up to the group historians like Urnamma. Discuss it with them.

[Urnamma]

Prom: Plutarch gives us that account, for one. Xanthippus noted the amount of metal armor in the Armory in Carthage, as well.

[PROMETHEUS]

That is for theSacred Band befoure the time line , I doubt that ....If it ever surviìved they would use the metal , also we shouldn't use themat all , if we need an eliute phalanxe we should find something else I gues...

Can I see this passage tough?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

That is for theSacred Band befoure the time line , I doubt that ....If it ever surviìved they would use the metal , also we shouldn't use themat all , if we need an eliute phalanxe we should find something else I gues...
Which historical alternative had you in mind?

If you look closely, SBI isn't that far fetched for our time period. They are only a couple of decades of.

[DemonArchangel]

Well, i'm too lazy to dig up Palestinian clubmen, but Aurelian used them against the palmyrans, so, yes it's way off.

What about the property free legions (Pre Marian)?

[Stormy]

Well, i'm too lazy to dig up Palestinian clubmen, but Aurelian used them against the palmyrans, so, yes it's way off.


:laugh4: Demon!

No proof then :balloon2:

[Steppe Merc]

Also I want to say that this Sacred band should be available by beginning and be not buildable again so will bea unit destined to extincion since so was historically ....I want to know what to use for the phalanx too ... also Urnamma described another elite unit the Afrivcan unit so there is another elite unit.....
I disagree. They probably went on longer than when they were last recorded, and where probably only discountined due to fininacial difficulty. If the player can keep up the finacialness of the empire, can't they continue with the Sacred Band?
And besides, what would the Sacred Band be replaced with? What sort of heavy cav, or phanlax would replace them?

[Dead Moroz]

Well, Dead Moroz has a different oppinion than mine. I would not be able to work under the tyrannical pressure of Activision's vision of the world... :rolleyes:
Is it worse than working under tyranny of band eager for 4 turns per year and lots of microregions? :clown:

[Dead Moroz]

Excuse me my bad English. What are you talking about? Who are the Palestinian Clubmen? Is it guys spending time in night clubs in Occupied Territories?

[Urnamma]

Sacred Band Cav and Inf are two different units. While the existence of Inf for our period is sketchy, cav was there until around 170 B.C. when the temple of Astarte wen't bankrupt, so to speak (they no longer had the infrastructure necessary to keep up the heavy cavalry).

[Stormy]

Excuse me my bad English. What are you talking about? Who are the Palestinian Clubmen? Is it guys spending time in night clubs in Occupied Territories?


~:joker: good one.

[PROMETHEUS]

Sacred Band Cav and Inf are two different units. While the existence of Inf for our period is sketchy, cav was there until around 170 B.C. when the temple of Astarte wen't bankrupt, so to speak (they no longer had the infrastructure necessary to keep up the heavy cavalry).

Can I read this infos? mostly about the iron cuirass on horsemen?

[Odysseus]

I havew proof of Palestinian (http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/details.asp?code=mir16&desc=Palestinian%20Clubmen) Clubsmen. And various other links:
Here' another one: Click Here (http://archive.wn.com/2004/03/26/1400/p/0b/4b27925c94c774.html) And here are some interesting sculptures:
Sculptures (http://www.miniaturesatlas.com/cat/genrehistorical/company14/nationalityrome/all.htm)

[PROMETHEUS]

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/3664/o0ga.jpg

In the meanwhile look the new revamped equites.....

[Somerled]

Would the Palestinian Clubbers have the unique ability to enter an Ecstacy and alcohol induced rage to smite the Roman invaders?

Seriously though, even assuming these killer clubbers ever existed, Palestine did not emerge as a region until well after the game's timeframe. In 135 CE, after smashing the Bar Kochba revolt, Hadrian wanted to forget about all the troubles associated with "Provincia Judaea" and so renamed it "Provincia Syria Palaestina."

If you wanted them to be Philistine clubmen, who are the origin of the term Palestine, then this is well before the time of the game.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Is it worse than working under tyranny of band eager for 4 turns per year and lots of microregions? :clown:
Oh yes!!! Much, much worse!!

This one was a democratic decision... :wink:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Excuse me my bad English. What are you talking about? Who are the Palestinian Clubmen? Is it guys spending time in night clubs in Occupied Territories?
LOL!!! :laugh4:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I havew proof of Palestinian (http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/details.asp?code=mir16&desc=Palestinian%20Clubmen) Clubsmen. And various other links:
Here' another one: Click Here (http://archive.wn.com/2004/03/26/1400/p/0b/4b27925c94c774.html) And here are some interesting sculptures:
Sculptures (http://www.miniaturesatlas.com/cat/genrehistorical/company14/nationalityrome/all.htm)
Historical excerpts, not miniatures...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/3664/o0ga.jpg

In the meanwhile look the new revamped equites.....
Kepps getting better, PROMETEUS!!! :smile:

Great work!!! :2thumbsup:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Would the Palestinian Clubbers have the unique ability to enter an Ecstacy and alcohol induced rage to smite the Roman invaders?
LOL :laugh4:


Seriously though, even assuming these killer clubbers ever existed, Palestine did not emerge as a region until well after the game's timeframe. In 135 CE, after smashing the Bar Kochba revolt, Hadrian wanted to forget about all the troubles associated with "Provincia Judaea" and so renamed it "Provincia Syria Palaestina."

If you wanted them to be Philistine clubmen, who are the origin of the term Palestine, then this is well before the time of the game.
Yes, even if real, they are out of timeframe.

[Odysseus]

Those miniatures are good enough! I'm insulted. On a lighter note, can I join the research peeps for your guyses mod?

And where did you get the tools to do that?

[Urnamma]

Miniatures are not good historical evidence, because their interpreation could be wrong. Primary source evidence is best, scholarly evidence is second best. Miniatures... only if backed up by the better evidence. Find us a text and we'll believe you. Also, Palestinian clubmen, even if actually used, would still be too late for the timeframe.

[Stormy]

Nice unit PROM :bow:

Keep up the good work ~:cheers:

[Urnamma]

PROM: On the Sacred Band Cavalry, could you put a diagonal strap across the torso to show the shield is strapped to the rider?

[PROMETHEUS]

PROM: On the Sacred Band Cavalry, could you put a diagonal strap across the torso to show the shield is strapped to the rider?

No this would imply double the actual size of the texture and si really unneeded for a single stripe ofleather......

[Dead Moroz]

I havew proof of Palestinian (http://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/details.asp?code=mir16&desc=Palestinian%20Clubmen) Clubsmen. And various other links:
Here' another one: Click Here (http://archive.wn.com/2004/03/26/1400/p/0b/4b27925c94c774.html) And here are some interesting sculptures:
Sculptures (http://www.miniaturesatlas.com/cat/genrehistorical/company14/nationalityrome/all.htm)
Looks like dismounted clibanarii in fact. Anyway these guys are outdated.

[Dead Moroz]

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/3664/o0ga.jpg

In the meanwhile look the new revamped equites.....
Nice! Just one more step - remove the trousers.

I now it's original thing, but this place... between legs... it looks awfully. Maybe it's possible to make something with it?

[hellenes]

Aymar when you relese the mod if you can send me the txt files that it changes so I ll tune them up for the Greek localisation project so you will have a release in Greek...

Hellenes

[PROMETHEUS]

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/6102/a0ec.jpg

U know what this unit is.....

[Steppe Merc]

Sacred Band Cav and Inf are two different units. While the existence of Inf for our period is sketchy, cav was there until around 170 B.C. when the temple of Astarte wen't bankrupt, so to speak (they no longer had the infrastructure necessary to keep up the heavy cavalry).
Oh ok. Just as long as the cavalry stays. ~D

And Prom, you've gotta start working on the intersesting factions! Leave the Romans behind! Their fine for now, do all their stuff last. ~D

[Stormy]

Nice unit once again prom. Our friend Steppe Merc wished to see some Parthians ~D Me too, Me too

[Stormy]

Posted by the Samnite :bow:


First version of Dacian peltast

http://img48.exs.cx/img48/2238/q6cdacianpeltast1.th.jpg (http://img48.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img48&image=q6cdacianpeltast1.jpg) http://img48.exs.cx/img48/1265/h6rdacianpeltast2.th.jpg (http://img48.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img48&image=h6rdacianpeltast2.jpg) http://img48.exs.cx/img48/3636/s9hdacianpeltast3.th.jpg (http://img48.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img48&image=s9hdacianpeltast3.jpg)

You can see which model I based it off in Stormy's pics above. I still need to add the scabbard though. Please comment to help make it better ~:)

GJ Samnite and welcome back..

[PROMETHEUS]

Ok here are my final versions of the Roman early legions , new models for them some more skinning developement could be done but the units are almoust ready with all the different cas files too....

here is


the Hastatus

http://img93.exs.cx/img93/5268/b1ul.jpg

the Princeps

http://img93.exs.cx/img93/444/a7vw.jpg

the Triarius

http://img93.exs.cx/img93/5558/c1gm.jpg

[PROMETHEUS]

First version of Dacian peltast



You can see which model I based it off in Stormy's pics above. I still need to add the scabbard though. Please comment to help make it better

the dresses are too bright , they should look more dark , used and consumpsed , the shield patterns need to be regulated and also the brighteness is too much , also need some darkening to give a 3d effect ......

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar when you relese the mod if you can send me the txt files that it changes so I ll tune them up for the Greek localisation project so you will have a release in Greek...

Hellenes
Sure. No problem. Do you want just the several descriptions txt?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Ok here are my final versions of the Roman early legions , new models for them some more skinning developement could be done but the units are almoust ready with all the different cas files too....
All great looking!! Very good job!!

But there are two small details that I think are to be mentioned:

1. The Triarii helm should be more oval and slightly taller.
2. The Triarii has a Gladius. What for? He doesn't use it!!...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

BTW, for everyone modelling the 3d units and skins, I want these pictures also posted on each of the specific faction groups in the restricted forum.

[Little Legioner]

All great looking!! Very good job!!

But there are two small details that I think are to be mentioned:

1. The Triarii helm should be more oval and slightly taller.
2. The Triarii has a Gladius. What for? He doesn't use it!!...

I found a print. It shows Triarii uses sword :duel:

http://www.aeroartinc.com/roman/images/02.jpg

Prometheus i think this picture useful for your work.

It's my first post in Barbarorum. I'm looking to this great project for a long time. I salute you all great modders.

Regards.

[PROMETHEUS]

1. The Triarii helm should be more oval and slightly taller.
2. The Triarii has a Gladius. What for? He doesn't use it!!...

1.. will look

2... they use but as secondary weapon and that is why u see the Gladius in the scabbard here while instead in the others pics the scabbard is empty , I think this style should be followed by all who makes scabbards.....

[PROMETHEUS]

http://img27.exs.cx/img27/9840/a4xw.jpg

this is only a reskin for the barbarian infantry mercs .... I added fur to their dresses , how it looks like?

[eadingas]

Will there still be generic barb mercs in the game?

[Ranika]

I think it was agreed that they were being removed in favor of region-proper mercenaries.

[eadingas]

I thought so too :)

[hellenes]

Sure. No problem. Do you want just the several descriptions txt?

Yes just the files that are altered... so ill change the original greek files to be in line with the mod my mail is arxidamos2003@yahoo.gr

Hellenes

[PROMETHEUS]

I tought this as a german inf merc....or a german infantry ...

[Ranika]

They shouldn't be need in Gaul or Britain, both will have region-proper mercs, probably not in Germania either, if there are other mercs more proper. I'm pretty sure proper mercs can be thought of, at least one per large region of space, and those can just be replaced by a proper mercenary for one of the regions.

Good thought though Prom, maybe it would be a good German merc infantry (I'm not sure), but I'd imagine they should have a subae knot. And I'm not familiar with what kind of clothing a Germanic merc would be wearing, so can't comment on that. But as Germanic infantry unit, I'm sure they're just improper, the Germans closest to that would probably be fraeman (I know I misspelled that), or possibly the longer spear infantry that used a phalanx.

[eadingas]

On my part, I can say that the Central Europe also should usespecific mercs: LaTene celtic spearmen and longswordsmen in the south, and german spearmen, saxmen and cavalry in the north... perhaps merc barb archers (for Lugia) can be more generic, if they're made better than regular recruitable archers.

[PROMETHEUS]

guys I remewmber u that mercs shouldn't be so specific but more generic so this could be a good barb german infantry , then did the germans and celts use phalanxes ? I haven't reado of this.....

[Ranika]

Both various Celts and Germans did employ phalanx formations at different times. Celts also employed the tetsudo formation (Romans adopted it from them), as a method of marching on fortifications. However, that probably wouldn't be used by mercenaries, and relegated instead to advanced Gallic units.

The Germans would have mercenary spearmen, though, and maybe if these were modified a bit more, they would take on a proper look, but you should look into that in the German Groups thread.

And mercs should be far more specific, generic mercs are what are in the game currently, and they don't at all represent the actual regional mercenaries (like generic barbarian infantry in Galatia, as opposed to actual Galatian Kuaros and Kuarothori, heavy infantry swords and spears, respectively). Gaul will have proper Gaesatae and such, and Germania should definitely have the saxmen (it'd look unique given the region and era, and the sax was an interesting weapon that should be represented). I'm not sure how German mercenary spearmen should look, though that may be close to them, but, you should still look for stuff in the German Groups, see what they have to say.

[frogbeastegg]

Looking incredible; great work everyone :rtwyes:

A very quick question from a frog who doesn't even have time to read all of this thread, let alone the entire forum's contents: What's with the split fronted mail so many units are wearing? It baffled me in the full game, and now I see it here too. I've seen loads of evidence for full skirted mail, but splits I only encounter evidence for much, much later than this. A little evidence or explanation would go down very well; this bothers me quite badly.

[PROMETHEUS]

Celts also employed the tetsudo formation (Romans adopted it from them), as a method of marching on fortifications.
LOL !!! now lets not invente history , of this step the Celts invented gunpoweder too....Testudo was a typical Roman invention tacticism , could be performed only under very hard training and sinchronicism of troops and was adopted by later legionaries as a manouver to counter the archers shoots approaching enemies... the Celts didn't even knew what was a siege tower and not for sure so many military formations , they attaked on mass with streight charges .... :book: Beware people I don't wonna see fake stuff into other factions , I know well History and military tactics of the Romans , Celts and Greeks since were my ancestors and is what I like to study living also in once inhabited by those cultures place... , I rely on others for the other factions , But if people start to put in nationalism prides about making nations different from what they were and place in anistorical stuff or ideas just becouse they think of it , couse they would like it was so or other reasons..... I will leave this project.... :furious3:

[eadingas]

Read Livy's account of Gallo-Roman wars. Be careful with your accusations, this is exactly what this mod is for: to get rid of the stereotypical barbarians fighting only in 'horde' formation.

[Ranika]

You seemed to 'know well' that Firbolg were 'mythical', when in reality they were Belgae in Hibernia. The Gauls invented many, many things the Romans (and Greeks, and numerous other societies) adopted. Just because they didn't write doesn't mean they weren't military innovaters. They were, in fact, quite intelligent.

Rome was not sacked by a horde of undisciplined imbeciles. It was sacked by the Gallic equivalent of Hannibal, Alexander, or Caesar, a military genius who obiliterated the northern forces of Rome (maybe a tad exaggerative of his prowess, but he was clearly a great leader and general). Brennos was not a man commanding hordes of unwashed barbarians, he commanded a trained, intelligent force, with professional warriors.

Roman and Greek authors write much of Gallic tactics and war-like behavior, but they also tend to embellish things. Livy said the great hardships Gauls endured, when serving Carthaginian armies, then immediately called them lazy. The Gauls sacked and humiliated Rome, Roman opinion is more than a little biased against them. It's not that Gauls had elaborate legions or what not, but they were not undisciplined hordes. They were combinations of young, inexperienced warriors, who probably acted in hordes, mercenary "tribes" who didn't feel the need to 'advance' with times (Gaesatae), and true professionals. The Romans changed their manner of war because of Gauls, that means that Gauls had to have truly impressed the Romans with their war against them.

It has nothing to do with nationalistic pride, I'm not a Gaul. I'm a Gael, and they fought significantly different (combinations of Gallic and British tactics). I have respect for Roman militarism, but the Romans adopted things constantly, that was what made them good. They would take the better aspects of their enemy's militaries, and make them their own (such as Gallic helmets, Spanish swords, etc.).

[Dead Moroz]

http://img27.exs.cx/img27/9840/a4xw.jpg

this is only a reskin for the barbarian infantry mercs .... I added fur to their dresses , how it looks like?
I think we need this unit for northern regions rebels (and mercenaries) such as Aestii, Fenni, Scandinavians.

Just two notes, Prometheus.
1. The fur should be (imho) more fluffy and a bit lighter (to make its relief more visible).
2. Why he have double strap?

[PROMETHEUS]

Ranika I won't quote ur post since is too long ....Don't wonnna start to explain all what I already did to Urnamma on the msn ....

But

1st

I havent said Gauls were imbecilles or stupid, would be like saying my ancestors were stupid since I should track my origins back to venetii , Romans and Greeks...

2
they didnt invent the testudo

3
Caesar describes them using a sort of testudo approiaching gates to set them on fire


this is something that can be performed by few men and is alogical thing to do to cover urself ...probably every army did this in their tactics....when u come to romans , they made this thing into a full operative machine made with lots of people on highh scalke manouvers wich requires quite a bit of training to do that ......

SO this is not going to be in gaul tactics ....Or totherwise better swith legions to gauls .....Here people tend to make things better for others just couse they found one reference hidden in a dusty place ...that doesn't make the norma out of it..... remember that the gauls didn't invent this ,they may have used a similar tactic that is exactly not the same thing but could be described as becouse of the look..... Romans did even use balistas and such like manubalistas but this doesn't allow us to make a new unit of balestriers and such.....

And About Livy he describes what he heard and is used to know .... try to describe the chaunt of war of the gauls to the maori and u would probably call it Haka but this isnot the same thing even if could be described as .....


4

To say that they USED something that can be classified a s a Testudo is one thing .....

Saying that the Romans COPIED it from the Gauls IS a big TOO much.....

Is also a manouvre that canbe common tought by every military man all over the world so there isn't much to invent and speack of inventions or copiatures , tough making it on large scale and full time hardened dicipline trained manouvers as a common and daily practice is something else....


The Gauls sacked and humiliated Rome, Roman opinion is more than a little biased against them. It's not that Gauls had elaborate legions or what not, but they were not undisciplined hordes

The biggest error here is to think of factions that spread for centuries like real players of a competitions.... there in NO one versus the other , there is NOt a match to see and tell who is better and who is stronger ...who is uhumiliated and who is not , u can't even tell who is the best general since everything chance and People shpuld think and live in those time to be able to talk about it ....sso the only thing possible is describe as is , facts and proves with NO comments on who did what , who is better , wo was stronger , who is more intelligent and stuff like that......

If people think of factions like competitors or football teams , wich is quite common to see around on TW forums They would act like sustainers of their home team and don't be instead impartials then u can take History books and throw them into the cabinet ..... But if people try too look at things good or bad that they could be with a non Faction - side eye , with a non modern judger eye , with not a western or eastern or whatever culture u come from critic eye then and only then could come true comprension of facts and history.....


You seemed to 'know well' that Firbolg were 'mythical'

I rectified myself when I discovered to have wronged on it since I knew the myth of Tuatha te Danaan and I made a misanderstanding but here is a different matter....

[eadingas]

The northerners at that period didn't use/know iron, except for more advanced people living around the Baltic (Veneds). They should either have stone spears, or wooden/flint clubs. The only metalwork was bronze and copper, very rare, all the way until ~100 BC, when these cultures were wiped out by something unknown (probably just moved further north).
(When they reappear around Vth c. CE, they STILL use only bronze weapons and jewellery. Talk about backwards...)

[Parmenio]

A very quick question from a frog who doesn't even have time to read all of this thread, let alone the entire forum's contents: What's with the split fronted mail so many units are wearing? It baffled me in the full game, and now I see it here too. I've seen loads of evidence for full skirted mail, but splits I only encounter evidence for much, much later than this. A little evidence or explanation would go down very well; this bothers me quite badly.

Because of how RTW skeletons work there has to be a big stretchy polygon between each leg on the skirt. Any detailed texture allied to the 'stretchy bit' would get visibly distorted a lot, hence the splits.

Seleucid Alpha:

http://img118.exs.cx/img118/8269/selecuidpike01jpg6pg.jpg

[Somerled]

In Book One of the Gallic Wars J.C. writes:


There was a town of the Remi, by name Bibrax, eight miles distant from this camp. This the Belgae on their march began to attack with great vigor. [The assault] was with difficulty sustained for that day. The Gauls' mode of besieging is the same as that of the Belgae: when after having drawn a large number of men around the whole of the fortifications, stones have begun to be cast against the wall on all sides, and the wall has been stripped of its defenders, [then], forming a testudo, they advance to the gates and undermine the wall: which was easily effected on this occasion; for while so large a number were casting stones and darts, no one was able to maintain his position upon the wall. When night had put an end to the assault, Iccius, who was then in command of the town, one of the Remi, a man of the highest rank and influence among his people, and one of those who had come to Caesar as embassador [to sue] for peace, sends messengers to him, [to report] "That, unless assistance were sent to him he could not hold out any longer.

Putting aside for the moment who invented the formation, I think a good case can be made for the testudo being a known seige method used by the Celts, and something that can certainly be included in this historical mod. The testudo is certainly a logical formation to employ, and given the Celts close contact with the Romans, something that they would quickly emulate if it was not already an autochthonous formation.

[PROMETHEUS]

Putting aside for the moment who invented the formation, I think a good case can be made for the testudo being a known seige method used by the Celts, and something that can certainly be included in this historical mod. The testudo is certainly a logical formation to employ, and given the Celts close contact with the Romans, something that they would quickly emulate if it was not already an autochthonous formation.

read again my post ....

[Stormy]

I think we need this unit for northern regions rebels (and mercenaries) such as Aestii, Fenni, Scandinavians.

I totally agree with you Dead Moroz but we will need some information about these units. Example : dress, weapon. This is a great idea because it will bring more realisticness to each region on the map.

BTW: nice work guys.

[Ranika]

In any event, regardless of who adopted what, or if it developed indepedently within each group, or was adapted from a similar source by both, the Gauls should have at least a unit capable of the testudo formation. Some Gallic ironwork even shows, highly conceptualized (like most Celtic art), Gallic Bodubatae formed into the testudo, so perhaps they could use it? Or are they going to be cavalry? If not them, some infantry unit should have it. It was used when they sacked Rome, if I recall, and that was some long bygone period, but I doubt they'd have 'forgotten' the testudo. And if it was present at Rome with Brennos or not, they DID have it. A proper heavy infantry unit, perhaps, should have the formation, or maybe a lighter infantry unit that can sap (so as to represent their use of the formation, to undermine the walls). If there is a Belgae merc or trainable unit for the Gauls/Britons, it should have this formation, most definitely.

As an aside, the Hibernian Belgae are said to have used a similar formation when assaulting Navan (Emain Macha, when it had thick stone walls which were apparently removed purposely, but for an unknown reason, possibly to build multiple smaller fortifications), to try and claim it from the more peaceful Darinii. The Darinii's Ivernii and Menapii allies came at the last moment though, and annihilated the enemy by sweeping in swiftly with an all cavalry army, and completely smashing them (the foe's force was apparently all infantrymen armed with clubs and swords, they had foolishly abandonned their spears, since the Darinii had no horses, nor any true melee warriors, so they thought their swords would be swifter to kill them). However, Saint Eustice, who wrote the earliest non-oral version of the story down, describes the formation of the the enemy marching on Emain Macha as having 'their shields set at their sides, their heads, and above their heads, as to keep the darts of the Darnoagh (Darinii) from falling upon them, and that their sling stones and arrows would drop to the side, making the odious sackmen impossible to fell unless a force sallied, or aide were to arrive'. However, he could've easily conceptualized or trumped up the story, but an interesting aside either way.

Anyway, that'd be another argument for a Belgae merc, I suppose, I should go to the non-faction specific unit thread and suggest it, or build on it in the Gaul Group thread.

And did read your posts, you called the testudo ahistorical for Celtic armies, and, it's not. Your argument was largely that Celts were undisciplined armies who were not capable of using a viable testudo formation (and fought in a massed head on attacks, which is BS, considering the Gauls used numerous tactics, some that appear to be adopted from Greeks). That's the point. Gauls or a Belgae unit should have it, they used it. Since this is a game mod, theories of who started it are erroneous, the important part is who had it within the game period, and the Gauls surely did.

[Stormy]

Nice Idea Ranika!
Add it to the Merc section also. ~:cheers:

[Ranika]

Not actually my idea, Pyscho V proposed it originally, but I'm a big proponent of it. The Belgae need a little head nod of some kind, and Belgae swordsmen who could form testudo would be a good merc, I think.

[PROMETHEUS]

And did read your posts, you called the testudo ahistorical for Celtic armies, and, it's not. Your argument was largely that Celts were undisciplined armies who were not capable of using a viable testudo formation

I said they didn't Invent it ..... not that a similar formation couldn't be used , many other cultures used this as well ....but was not a standarized operation like for the legionaries......

[Steppe Merc]

You can see which model I based it off in Stormy's pics above. I still need to add the scabbard though. Please comment to help make it better
Can you give them longer hair? I'm sick of all the practically bald units that CA made... I mean is it really that hard to give someone proper lenghth hair, like down to their shoulders?


Seleucid Alpha:
Are those the Silver sheild guys? Because I'm pretty sure they would have had silver colored armor as well... or at least I think so.

[eadingas]

This is not a colored picture, I think. Just an example.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

1.. will look

2... they use but as secondary weapon and that is why u see the Gladius in the scabbard here while instead in the others pics the scabbard is empty , I think this style should be followed by all who makes scabbards.....
OK. Fair enough.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Yes just the files that are altered... so ill change the original greek files to be in line with the mod my mail is arxidamos2003@yahoo.gr

Hellenes
OK. When we have a release version I'll send them to you. Keep watching this forum and PM me if I forget to send you the mail with the files.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

LOL !!! now lets not invente history , of this step the Celts invented gunpoweder too....Testudo was a typical Roman invention tacticism , could be performed only under very hard training and sinchronicism of troops and was adopted by later legionaries as a manouver to counter the archers shoots approaching enemies... the Celts didn't even knew what was a siege tower and not for sure so many military formations , they attaked on mass with streight charges .... :book: Beware people I don't wonna see fake stuff into other factions , I know well History and military tactics of the Romans , Celts and Greeks since were my ancestors and is what I like to study living also in once inhabited by those cultures place... , I rely on others for the other factions , But if people start to put in nationalism prides about making nations different from what they were and place in anistorical stuff or ideas just becouse they think of it , couse they would like it was so or other reasons..... I will leave this project.... :furious3:
Beware, PROMETEUS!!! Germans DID use the phalanx formation and NOT all Celts atacked in horde formation. Like eadingas said, read more about them...

[PROMETHEUS]

I was speacking of the post about who invented the testudo ....not phalanx and so on....mainly Celtd din't use complex Tactics on their own and exceptions didn't made a use out of it....


BTW Whats should I beware?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I was speacking of the post about who invented the testudo ....not phalanx and so on....mainly Celtd din't use complex Tactics on their own and exceptions didn't made a use out of it....
Sorry. I posted that before I had read your previous explanation.


BTW Whats should I beware?
Of being too accusative...

[PROMETHEUS]

Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
BTW Whats should I beware?

Fair enough , but I Just can't stand anymore entries from people about fake stuff like roman clubbers and others , as I have said there is a big difference in the testudo the Romans invented and the one that all the other nations used wich wasn't a standarized formation , that is why I am against putting it into a gaul unit , otherwise all other factions should as well since placing ur shields up to cover from darts and send troops to set fire to a gate is logical ....



Of being too accusative...
I wasn't accusing anyone in person ...didn't want to sound hard , but there is a limit and a big difference from saying ....Gauls did use testudo ...and Gauls Invented testudo....One thing is sure ...they invented the hair gel.... :bow:

[Stormy]

Fair enough , but I Just can't stand anymore entries from people about fake stuff like roman clubbers and others , as I have said there is a big difference in the testudo the Romans invented and the one that all the other nations used wich wasn't a standarized formation , that is why I am against putting it into a gaul unit , otherwise all other factions should as well since placing ur shields up to cover from darts and send troops to set fire to a gate is logical ....

I wasn't accusing anyone in person ...didn't want to sound hard , but there is a limit and a big difference from saying ....Gauls did use testudo ...and Gauls Invented testudo....One thing is sure ...they invented the hair gel.... :bow:

I agree, I think there is a big difference between a Roman Testudo compared to any other who will use it and the same goes for the german phalanx. Placing a shield for cover and advancing while under attack from missles is logical and I will only bet many in ancient warfare use this tactic threw out the globe.

Now, As for the clubmen, I seen it in one of my books ( Warriors of Rome ) but they were not a main military unit. In fact the plate description called it primitive and used more by like a militia unit or civilian protecting their own city/town ( The club was a universal civilian weapon it seems, used in many parts of the globe, NOT just Roman like a few may think ). The plate showed Romans protecting one of their cities in the balkans while being attacked by Dacians. The clubman was shirtless and bare footed and the clubman being a civilian was helping the Roman Archers defend. So, for the clubmen to be in-game that is like adding an extra peasant or changing the weapon the peasant has already and I don't think it is worth the change. The default peasant weapon is fine. So the club is :thumbsdown: ~D

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Fair enough , but I Just can't stand anymore entries from people about fake stuff like roman clubbers and others , as I have said there is a big difference in the testudo the Romans invented and the one that all the other nations used wich wasn't a standarized formation , that is why I am against putting it into a gaul unit , otherwise all other factions should as well since placing ur shields up to cover from darts and send troops to set fire to a gate is logical ....
Ok. Fair enough. I agree. But a different basic "testudo" for Gauls will be hard to implement.


I wasn't accusing anyone in person ...didn't want to sound hard , but there is a limit and a big difference from saying ....Gauls did use testudo ...and Gauls Invented testudo....One thing is sure ...they invented the hair gel.... :bow:
LOL :grin: I agree that sometimes there is imput that shouldn't be taken into account, but remember that most of those suggestions aren't made by EB members.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Because of how RTW skeletons work there has to be a big stretchy polygon between each leg on the skirt. Any detailed texture allied to the 'stretchy bit' would get visibly distorted a lot, hence the splits.

Seleucid Alpha:

http://img118.exs.cx/img118/8269/selecuidpike01jpg6pg.jpg
Why is the image so bluryy? :inquisitive:

[Parmenio]

That would be my primitive graphics card Aymar. :(

It defaults to the lower mip map. However a new card is on the way. :)

[Lord Adherbal]

some photos from painted wargaming models of Carthaginian units that might be usefull to you guys:

Light African Infantry (http://www.hat.com/Cur9120.html)
Heavy African Infantry (http://www.hat.com/Cur9020.html)
Iberian Infantry (http://www.hat.com/Othr6/Marzi03.html)
Iberian Light Infantry (http://www.hat.com/AnciCS2.html)
Iberian Medium Infantry (http://www.hat.com/AnciCS.html)
Carthaginian Command Units (http://www.hat.com/Curr/Test8056b.html)
Carthaginian Banners (http://www.hat.com/Curr/Test8056c.html)

mod looks great btw :)

[PROMETHEUS]

Time to decide and may it be definitive .....

Sacred band phalanx ----cuirass or linen?

Sacred band cavalry ----cuirass or linen?

[Steppe Merc]

My vote is cuirass for infantry, linen for cavalry. But that's just me, and I'm no expert.

[The Wizard]

Why is the image so bluryy? :inquisitive:
Maybe, Aymar, because it's an alpha... ~;)



~Wiz

[[cF]HanBaal]

Adherbal']some photos from painted wargaming models of Carthaginian units that might be usefull to you guys:

mod looks great btw :)

Thx for the help and the kind words my good friend Adherbal :)

BTW, when are you gonna finish that lousy mod of yours and start helping us skinning some Karthy units?! :grin: Just kiddin, I'm following your mod too and it looks greater and greater by the day ~:cheers:


---



Time to decide and may it be definitive .....

Sacred band phalanx ----cuirass or linen?

Sacred band cavalry ----cuirass or linen?



For the phalanx, definitely cuirass. As I said before the only source we have explicitly refers iron cuirasses.

For the cav, the info is inconclusive. However I would give them cuirass too. 3 points:

-it would be a bit weird to have mail armoured cav in the 4th tier for Carthage (as probably the new Iberian Heavy Cav will have) and only linen armoured cav in the 5th tier...

-their counterparts in foot, the SBInf, are explicitly said to have worn iron cuirasses. Xantippus also refers to the large amounts of iron armour in the armoury of Carthage. Besides, Carthage was reknowned to have some of the best metalsmiths and so the ability to make 'confortable' cuirasses even for their horsemen, especially for the 'elite within the elite' among them, the famous SBCav.

-finally, this unit is Urnamma's baby and since info is inconclusive I wouldn't dare spoiling his will. In fact, I wouldn't dare any of you to do so coz he is a really BIG mutha :grin:

[DemonArchangel]

Did the Argyraspids wear purple and blue like that?

[Urnamma]

For the cav, the info is inconclusive. However I would give them cuirass too. 3 points:

Nope, the accounting records of the temple of Astarte in 170 B.C. list no less than three thousand iron cuirasses and possibly as many as thirteen thousand(the tablet is damaged). Since the Sacred Band Cavalry was 'owned' by the temple, I'd say that is definitive evidence.

[[cF]HanBaal]

whoa coool info Urnamma! Why haven't you mentioned it before!? And where do you find this stuff... not on the net I guess true? Guess I'll have to pay a visit to Carthage some day to 'dig' some stuff myself ~;)

Ok hope that settles the issue then. 'Our' babies are gonna look shiny and pretty afterall ~:cheers:

[Urnamma]

whoa coool info Urnamma! Why haven't you mentioned it before!? And where do you find this stuff... not on the net I guess true? Guess I'll have to pay a visit to Carthage some day to 'dig' some stuff myself

On a tablet that it took me about three hours to translate the other day.

[Urnamma]

It happened to correspond to all of this, for a change of luck :bow:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

That would be my primitive graphics card Aymar. :(

It defaults to the lower mip map. However a new card is on the way. :)
AH! OK! Sorry, I was really intrigued by it.

I'm glad you new card is on the way... ~:)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

My vote is cuirass for infantry, linen for cavalry. But that's just me, and I'm no expert.
I agree. No leather or linen shoulder pads on the metal cuirass, please... :wink:

[Urnamma]

My vote is cuirass for infantry, linen for cavalry. But that's just me, and I'm no expert.

I am an expert. :book:

Here's the info. The Phoenician word for iron is BR-Z-L. The text states 'three (or thirteen, probably this number, because of the number of swords) thousand iron breastplates were there. Sixteen talents of silver were there. Four talents of gold were there. Fifteen thousand (curved) swords were there [probably falcata]. Fifteen talets of silk were there [probably very, very fine linen, since the word for silk was used. This much silk is really hard to come by, so it's probably excellent quality garment linen, probably for use in garment making. This sort of linen is unsuitable for armoring] Three statues of our most holy goddess were there, made of gold and electrum [a mixture of gold and silver].'

So, I'd say they would have had iron breastplates and falcatas for secondary weapons. We know that they used the Xyston (Kontos) as well, making a shield unusable on horseback.

Well, here's the problem. The cavalry didn't wear linen! They wore an iron cuirass, as did the infantry. Iron cuirass for both. There's your definative answer. Iron cuirass stays, if we want history.

Remember guys, Carthage was rich, and these were the flower of her army. They were heavily armored, to say the least.

[Parmenio]

Did the Argyraspids wear purple and blue like that?

There is some contention on the issue. ;)

[PROMETHEUS]

Well, here's the problem. The cavalry didn't wear linen! They wore an iron cuirass, as did the infantry. Iron cuirass for both. There's your definative answer. Iron cuirass stays, if we want history

Fine I'll take this answer , I'll use the linen for the other infantry of Carthage ...


now
I will leave there the shoulder padds or not?


And If you doubt that could have been used check my other post on romans and u'll see where used made of metal by romans ......

[Urnamma]

Fine I'll take this answer , I'll use the linen for the other infantry of Carthage ...

Well, there's lots of Carthaginian units to use it for. Libyan spearmen, Citizen Cavalry, and Poeni Citizen Militia.

[Lord Adherbal]

I made an iberian light infantry model and skin. If you guys think it's good enough and/or want it just ask :)

http://users.skynet.be/Carthaginian/Iberian.gif

[PROMETHEUS]

The skins need rework I think they look too plastic.....

[[cF]HanBaal]

Here's the info. The Phoenician word for iron is BR-Z-L. The text states...

Excelent stuff!!! Say again, how much are you charging for each phoenician language lessons? :grin:


---



I will leave there the shoulder padds or not?


And If you doubt that could have been used check my other post on romans and u'll see where used made of metal by romans ......

I'm with you Prom. I said my opinion before and I'll say it again. Even if not for pratical reasons, and only for embelishment purposes, they were used. It's not conclusive though if, for the aforementioned units, they were used... so for embelishment reasons also, I vote them to stay. They looked great in your alpha unit Prom! :2thumbsup:


---


I made an iberian light infantry model and skin. If you guys think it's good enough and/or want it just ask :)

I like the details: the v-shaped shirt as Iberians used, the common sinew helmet, the dark red borders on the white tunics, the belt, etc.

I dunno about the crossed leather stripes on the chest unless you put there a small round centered brestplate. The look overall needs a few touches as Prom said but a definitely great work for an 'alpha'!

Anyway, as I said before, if you think you have some spare time to help us skin some new models for Carthage (Punic Citizen Cav, Balearic Skirmishers and some others) just tell so, so we can add you to the worklists. That way you can check those new units' finished descriptions we gathered in the hidden forum and get a grip on what we have in mind. As I also told you, feel no pressure in accepting as I know you have your hands full with your MTW Chivalry mod ~;)

[Steppe Merc]

Alright, you convinced me Urnamma. Just as long as too many cavalry don't have that style of cuirass...

[Urnamma]

Steppe Merc:

Only Punic and Greek cavalry will use them, and the campanian mercenary cav. Hetairoi uses cuirass as well, as do Thessalians, Campanians, and some Roman cavalry. What's so odd about a solid metal cuirass? They were used in the late middle ages quite a bit.

[PROMETHEUS]

http://img79.exs.cx/img79/6927/a8nt.jpg


I am quite proud of this one....the Early Caesarian Legionary model.....note the plastic pose.... ~D

[Steppe Merc]

I know that. I think my main problem is the whole "muscle" thing. A normal plate armour I know was perfectly comfortable to wear, compared to other armor. I meant the muscled type with the pecs and the abs and the nipple stenciled in.

[sharrukin]

I know that. I think my main problem is the whole "muscle" thing. A normal plate armour I know was perfectly comfortable to wear, compared to other armor. I meant the muscled type with the pecs and the abs and the nipple stenciled in.

Not sure if iron breastplates were muscled? Don't recall seeing one to be honest. Most were not, but I suppose it's possible.

[PSYCHO V]

Prom ! love that ERL ! Bloody Brilliant!

(minor thing, the redish neck material needs darkening a little imo)

So you want to help out with some more Gauls?

[Lord Adherbal]

I dunno about the crossed leather stripes on the chest unless you put there a small round centered brestplate. The look overall needs a few touches as Prom said but a definitely great work for an 'alpha'!

I made them crossed because a single stripe would be more work (because of the way the skin is applied). It can be done if I reapply the skin tho.

As for the helmet, I assumed they were made of leather, is that correct ?


Anyway, as I said before, if you think you have some spare time to help us skin some new models for Carthage (Punic Citizen Cav, Balearic Skirmishers and some others) just tell so, so we can add you to the worklists. That way you can check those new units' finished descriptions we gathered in the hidden forum and get a grip on what we have in mind. As I also told you, feel no pressure in accepting as I know you have your hands full with your MTW Chivalry mod

If you give me some reference images or texts I'll do some models. The Chivalry mod is starting to bore me a bit because atm I'm doing 90% of all the work (and most of the work isn't fun to do like creating low LOD models for other people's models). So I think I gonna take a break for a while and do something that are more fun - like creating my own new models :)

[eadingas]

Not sure if iron breastplates were muscled? Don't recall seeing one to be honest. Most were not, but I suppose it's possible.

I've never seen real iron cuirass muscled, only reconstructions by armor shoppers, such as this:
http://www.medieval-weaponry.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=676&HS=1

But it looks rather silly to me...

[PROMETHEUS]

Romans did use to make muscular cuirasses , about the greeks I think so too but less accentuates as the Romans.....

[Lord Adherbal]

carthaginian officer with battle standard (body skin only half-done)
HanBaal asked me to do a battle standard for carthage a while ago, is this one any good ?

http://users.skynet.be/Carthaginian/bannercavalry.gif http://users.skynet.be/Carthaginian/bannercavalry2.gif

[PROMETHEUS]

Sorry I don't want to sound mean or anything but this doesn't looks good at all , the spear is heavily unbalanced and looks unrealisticly weightened , while the textures are totally to be redone.....and with what is he supposed to fight?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Romans did use to make muscular cuirasses , about the greeks I think so too but less accentuates as the Romans.....
Yes, Greeks and Romans did use muscualr metal cuirasses, just like these:

http://img52.exs.cx/img52/5894/w7wathenianhoplite30.jpg

http://history.smsu.edu/jchuchiak/equip_2.jpg

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects97/armour/muscle/muimage/MU4.JPG

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/users/morford/aug13.jpg

Notice the hinges.

PROMETEUS: If you make Roman metal cuirasses with imitation metal shoulder pads, can you make them look like they have hinges? No need for polygons, just on the texture.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

BTW, elite hellenic kingdoms units like the Hypaspistai and late Athenian Hoplites used muscled metal cuirasses. But for Romans, only the Legatus used one.

[eadingas]

But are these cuirasses iron? It all looks bronze to me...

[Urnamma]

Adherbal: It looks good for an alpha.

Tone down the spear size.
Add decoration to shield.
Do the rest of the body.
The helmet isn't right. Get Prom's SBcav helm and use that.

Good start though. Don't be discouraged.

Aymar: it depends on the hellenic kingdom... Ptolemaic elite units wouldn't wear muscle cuirass, except for Hetairoi. Armored hoplites stopped using muscle cuirass during the Iphikratean reforms and afterward. Their armor was moslty changed to mail after the Galatian invasion. Hypastistai would wear muscle cuirass, and possibly Spartan hoplites (though they had a tendency to wear linen in the third century).

Units like Thorakitai Argyraspidai (the most elite hellenic unit aside from Hetairoi) clearly wore heavy chain mail.

Don't make blanket statements ~;)

[[cF]HanBaal]

carthaginian officer with battle standard (body skin only half-done)

I like it ~:)

The body skin is sort of what we were thinking for our citizen cav (linen armour, large round shield) so we can go from there to make that unit too. The helmet's 'hair' could be a bit longer imo, maybe double its length and curving it consequently. OTOH The helmet looks very proportionate in size! It is perhaps the best drawn helmet I saw ~;) ... I would just give it a more 'bronze' tone, it looks too muddy/wooded :P


About the standard... that's EXACTLY the design I had in mind! Excelent! It needs some touches though. The moon crescent is a bit edgy in some parts and perhaps too big as well as the spear overall. However in the 'far units' in the back of the 2nd pic they don't look that disproportionate anymore...strange ~:confused:

All in all a great job and hope to see you in Carthage's workgroup soon ~:cheers:

Edit: or as Urnamma just suggested (haven't read that) put in the SBCav's helmet.

BTW, what shield symbol shall we use for this unit Urnamma?

Edit2: check this to a better look at the standard proportion Adherbal (and anyone attempting it):
http://www.benidormytu.com/regiones/murcia/cartagena/carthagineses_y_romanos/desfile4.jpg

[PROMETHEUS]

This mesh looks also too high on polycount , but I may be wrong ....and the shield shouldn't be used , should keep a sword on the right hand and the standard onthe other.....

[[cF]HanBaal]

...and the shield shouldn't be used , should keep a sword on the right hand and the standard onthe other.....

Perhaps...but in this specific case, the standard could easily be used as a spear weapon. Besides, I think the shield would be apropriate to defend himself of incoming missiles.

BTW Prom , could you use Adherbal's face details he made for the Standard Bearer and put it in the SBCav's unit... No offence but those guys had some weird faces :P

[PROMETHEUS]

No I already fixed that as I said befoure....

[Lord Adherbal]

I can decrease polycount: The banner is 37 vertices, 62 faces. How is that compared the the boar standerd for the gauls ?

[PROMETHEUS]

I dunno the Boar Vercingetorix did , the avarage high policount on faces is 400 I think we can reach even 500 for the high cas files but no more....

[Lord Adherbal]

my model has:
453 vertices
734 faces

to compare, a greek hoplite has:
471 vertices
711 faces

doesn't seem to bad to me considering that banner takes a lot more polies then a simple hoplite spear :P

[Steppe Merc]

Yes, Greeks and Romans did use muscualr metal cuirasses, just like these:
Those were what I had a problem with. I have no problem at all with normal metal cuirasses, just the muscled ones. The Muscled ones were the ones that were uncomfortable, and those are the ones I have problems with for the cavalry.

[Urnamma]

Steppe Merc: The muscled cuirass was used with padding, it wasn't just strapped on. It's just a design on the armor, it wouldn't hurt. Perhaps the reason why the steppe horsemen didn't like it is that they forgot to put the padding in it. ~;)

HanBaal: I think prom is right, there should be a sword instead of the shield... No one would degrade a unit standard by using it as a weapon, not to mention how unbalanced and heavy the things are.

If we're dead set on the shield, a sign of tanit would be nice. We haven't had one of those yet, and it's in no way incorrect.

[Steppe Merc]

That's probably it, mainly because they would have stole it off of the dead Greeks. But there was a muscled cuirass found with a funerary thing or something, and the author of the book commented on how it was somewhat odd.
Thanks for explaining the whole thing to me, and sorry for objecting to it. I didn't quite realize exactly how they were used. Thanks. ~D

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Adherbal']carthaginian officer with battle standard (body skin only half-done)
HanBaal asked me to do a battle standard for carthage a while ago, is this one any good ?

http://users.skynet.be/Carthaginian/bannercavalry.gif http://users.skynet.be/Carthaginian/bannercavalry2.gif
It looks good for an Alpha, yes. And the standard looks really good. But I have to tell you that the helm should be metal and have cheeck guards.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Adherbal']I made an iberian light infantry model and skin. If you guys think it's good enough and/or want it just ask :)

http://users.skynet.be/Carthaginian/Iberian.gif
I'm already doing the Iberian faction units and the Iberian units for Carthage. Consult the units list (sticky) at the restricted thread and focus on the Carthaginian units.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

But are these cuirasses iron? It all looks bronze to me...
Metal. Not specifically iron or bronze.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar: it depends on the hellenic kingdom... Ptolemaic elite units wouldn't wear muscle cuirass, except for Hetairoi.
Did I said anything specific about Ptolemaic units? No.


Armored hoplites stopped using muscle cuirass during the Iphikratean reforms and afterward.
Isn't 300BC late enough? Those two Athenian Hoplites are from that era - 300BC.


Their armor was moslty changed to mail after the Galatian invasion. Hypastistai would wear muscle cuirass, and possibly Spartan hoplites (though they had a tendency to wear linen in the third century).
Then why isn't there any representation of hoplites with mail?


Units like Thorakitai Argyraspidai (the most elite hellenic unit aside from Hetairoi) clearly wore heavy chain mail.
As I said before I was only specific to Hypastistai and Athenian Hoplites (330BC).


Don't make blanket statements ~;)
Re-read my post... :wink:

[Lord Adherbal]

HanBaal: I think prom is right, there should be a sword instead of the shield... No one would degrade a unit standard by using it as a weapon, not to mention how unbalanced and heavy the things are.

then there won't be mounted banner carriers I guess :) not one that uses a spear as primary weapon anyway - a spear in one hand and a banner in the other would look rather stupid.

Master HanBaal told me to create the punic citizen cavalry, so i'll start on that as soon as I finished those damn low LOD models for my Chivalry mod beta.

talking about low LOD models, are you guys working on those already ? We at Chivalry TW have ignored them for a while, creating only highest deatil models. And now we've end up - or better - I've end up creating them all at once, which is rather annoying - not to mension boring. Best way of working is to create a unit model + it's lower LOD versions before moving on to the next unit model.

[Steppe Merc]

Their should deffinetly be mounted flag carries... just give them a sword. Probably a bannerman would use a sword anyway.

[Urnamma]

Did I said anything specific about Ptolemaic units? No.

I thought you said something about elite hellenic units in general.


Isn't 300BC late enough? Those two Athenian Hoplites are from that era - 300BC.

Are you sure? They have the wrong shield for 300 B.C. for one. They should also be wearing Attic style helmets with cheek guards, not a Phrygian cap, and his spear should be longer. There was an ongoing reform movement in Greek warfare. By about 250 B.C. most hoplites wore linen armor, had attic helmets, theuros shields, and longer spears. Armored hoplites were armored in either bronze cuirass (for the more anachronistic Greek states), or mail (for the more forward thinking ones).


Then why isn't there any representation of hoplites with mail?

Good question, except that there are relief sculptures of hoplites from ~200 B.C. with mail armor on Rhodes, embedded in the walls of the castle at Lindos. This was a crusader fort, that used material from older structures on the island. It's really up to you. Athenians and Spartans might have still used the bronze armor, but Rhodians, Aetolians, and Corinthians probably used mail. It's your call, because both were used. Unless you want two types of armored hoplites...


As I said before I was only specific to Hypastistai and Athenian Hoplites (330BC).

Sorry, I misinterpreted. Remember though, Athens was under the control of Macedon for most of this period.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


then there won't be mounted banner carriers I guess :) not one that uses a spear as primary weapon anyway - a spear in one hand and a banner in the other would look rather stupid.

Nah, they should have a sword for the banner carrier, not a spear. Sword in right hand, banner in left.

You're doing the citizen cavalry? Check out the hidden forum's carthage unit descriptions. If you have any questions about their equipment, PM me.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Adherbal']Master HanBaal told me to create the punic citizen cavalry, so i'll start on that as soon as I finished those damn low LOD models for my Chivalry mod beta.
I'll will write that you're working with that unit in the unit worklist.


Adherbal']talking about low LOD models, are you guys working on those already ? We at Chivalry TW have ignored them for a while, creating only highest deatil models. And now we've end up - or better - I've end up creating them all at once, which is rather annoying - not to mension boring. Best way of working is to create a unit model + it's lower LOD versions before moving on to the next unit model.
I'm doing all different mesh resolutions before going on another unit. Some other guys don't do like I'm doing, prefering to concentratre on high poly.

[[cF]HanBaal]

Nah, they should have a sword for the banner carrier, not a spear. Sword in right hand, banner in left.

Wouldn't that still look rather... strange? I mean, when you're riding a horse you need a free hand to hold on to, especially when the horse speeds up or down or turns quickly. I get this comic picture of the rider trying to balance himself in these 3 situations :grin:

With the shield in his left arm, he would have his left hand to balance himself while riding since shields were usually strapped around the neck to leave the hand free and the arm with less weight.

OTOH if, as you suggest, he uses his left hand to carry the banner and his right hand to carry the sword....I get another comic picture: when the horse accelerates/brakes or suddenly turns the rider quickly uses his right hand (with a sword) to grab the horse and ":oops: I think I just stabbed my horse in the neck" :grin:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I thought you said something about elite hellenic units in general.
I said:


BTW, elite hellenic kingdoms units like the Hypaspistai and late Athenian Hoplites used muscled metal cuirasses. But for Romans, only the Legatus used one.
That was a specific statement, although I understand that it could be taken as general, because I let the idea that other units, that I did not know of, could use it too. But I did not mentioned that ANY Elite Successor Kingdom unit would use it. And I didn't refered Ptolemaic units. It's more of a probability statement due to my lack of specific knowledge on the matter.


Are you sure?
Yes. That is the date the Osprey book mentions. 300BC.


They have the wrong shield for 300 B.C. for one. They should also be wearing Attic style helmets with cheek guards, not a Phrygian cap, and his spear should be longer. There was an ongoing reform movement in Greek warfare. By about 250 B.C. most hoplites wore linen armor, had attic helmets, theuros shields, and longer spears. Armored hoplites were armored in either bronze cuirass (for the more anachronistic Greek states), or mail (for the more forward thinking ones).
That is not up to me to comment. Try mailing the author. He's the one claiming it... :wink:


Good question, except that there are relief sculptures of hoplites from ~200 B.C. with mail armor on Rhodes, embedded in the walls of the castle at Lindos. This was a crusader fort, that used material from older structures on the island. It's really up to you. Athenians and Spartans might have still used the bronze armor, but Rhodians, Aetolians, and Corinthians probably used mail. It's your call, because both were used. Unless you want two types of armored hoplites...
OK. I believe you. But in that book (I don't have it BTW) I clearly remember that there is no image of ANY mail-clad hoplite. The text might refer it though. As for if it is up to me, it isn't. It's up to all of us and specially to the Greek experts like you... ~:)


Sorry, I misinterpreted. Remember though, Athens was under the control of Macedon for most of this period.
No problem. But Macedonian control means what?

[Steppe Merc]

@ [cF]HanBaal: You have to rember these guys were extremely well trained. The standard bearer espically would have been a very good rider out of the rest of the well trained horsemen. The steppe warriors could somehow juggle two or three bows, a sword, a spear and a lasso. Of course the more boring nations like Rome would never had been able to do this, but certaintaly the Carthagians, and the Successors wouldn't have needed reigns. Their spears used two hands to begin with. So it wouldn't have been a problem having a standard in one hand, and a sword with another. They would have had to use their legs to control the horse to begin with.

[[cF]HanBaal]

I hear you Steppe Merc, but when making sudden turns or suddenly stopping/accelerating I believe even the VERY skilled steppes/numidian horsemen would manage to get a free hand at least to balance themselves (by pressuring the horse's body/neck with that hand for balance, if no reigns were available, like in the case of the numidians). I know it was somewhat feasible but it would be EXTREMELY difficult and tiring controling permanently your balance and the horse's mobility with no hands in any situation. And I don't think the standard bearer needs to have a weapon at hand coz he wasn't destined to fight, or even to be in the 'fighting zone', in order to always be alive and thus inspire till the very end his troops by waiving the nations' banner.


Here's my idea:
http://img45.exs.cx/img45/6716/Liby-PhoenicianHeavyInfantryman-CarthaginianStandard-BearerSacredBand.jpg

[Lord Adherbal]

it might be possible to create a skeleton without attack animation. This might disable the ability for banner carriers to fight (removing the horses' jump animation stopped them from jumping over pikes, or atleast that's what I heard). Then that could be used for the mounted banner carriers.

[Meneldil]

Aymar, the plate you're showing is the last one of the Ancient Greek osprey book. As you said, the scene takes place between 330BC-300BC.

There's no other plate in this book from a later era, though there is a paragraph about "The end of the Athenian army", which deals with the reforms in athenian military organisation, and the battle fought by athene and the aetolians against the galatians in 278BC, but unhappilly, there's nothing about their equipment.

[PROMETHEUS]

Originally Posted by Urnamma
Good question, except that there are relief sculptures of hoplites from ~200 B.C. with mail armor on Rhodes
Forgive my will to believe this , but I need a picture of it to be convinced ....

Also about greeks using still iron cuirass I doubd as well probably linen was on the most.......

and 60 years of distance is a enough time difference to make shift fromone armour to another.....also later in the game may be advanced hoplites may come in mail shirts especially if greeks expand and get close to rome and celts as seen by romand adopting those armours .....

[PROMETHEUS]

http://img21.exs.cx/img21/2571/a4hj.jpg

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar, the plate you're showing is the last one of the Ancient Greek osprey book. As you said, the scene takes place between 330BC-300BC.

There's no other plate in this book from a later era, though there is a paragraph about "The end of the Athenian army", which deals with the reforms in athenian military organisation, and the battle fought by athene and the aetolians against the galatians in 278BC, but unhappilly, there's nothing about their equipment.
Thanks for confirming it. :thumbsup:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

EDIT: This thread has been renamed Unit Screenshots because all other info regarding unit implementation has been moved to the restricted thread. As such, only screenshots will be posted here. Exchange of ideas, between EB members, about unit implementation and such will be discussed in the restricted thread. Other people can still suggest improvements or alterations in this thread or in other thread in the EB forum.

[Odysseus]

What? Dang, now I can't give my ideas. ~:mecry:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

What? Dang, now I can't give my ideas. ~:mecry:
Yes, you can. I was refering to EB members. I'll edit the post.

[hellenes]

Aymar Ive found this site on armies http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_31b_figure_1.htm
this is a carthagenian army list i think its VERY helpful...
A small side note I hope that you preserve the roundness and reflection of the CA's skins, I didnt like the RTR skins because they were flat and paperlooking,Prometheus' skins LOOK FANTASTIC!!!
I hope that you preserve 100% historical accuracy as far as the LOOKS of the units is concerned because its has NOTHING to do with gameplay...

Hellenes

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar Ive found this site on armies http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_31b_figure_1.htm
this is a carthagenian army list i think its VERY helpful...
Thanks for the link, but we already use it quite often as a last resort reference. It contains some errors, so we prefer to use historical excerpts helped with some artistic renderings by Osprey and similar.


A small side note I hope that you preserve the roundness and reflection of the CA's skins, I didnt like the RTR skins because they were flat and paperlooking,Prometheus' skins LOOK FANTASTIC!!!
Yeah. I've seen them. Our work won't be like that, hopefully. Most of the current work by PROMETHEUS, reconspy, Vercingetorix, PSYCHO V, The Samnite and others, is very, very good.


I hope that you preserve 100% historical accuracy as far as the LOOKS of the units is concerned because its has NOTHING to do with gameplay...
Rest assured. The "coolness" factor will be a slave serving the accurate historical depictions.

[PSYCHO V]

A few skin adjustments (GAULS):

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/NWpic.jpg

NORTHERN WARBAND

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/SWpic.jpg

SOUTHERN WARBAND

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/AApic.jpg

ARVERNI ARGOS

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/SB1.jpg

STANDARD BEARER


Team members are currently finishing exams for the year so more units on the way later this / next week.

[chemchok]

A few skin adjustments (GAULS):

NORTHERN WARBAND

SOUTHERN WARBAND

ARVERNI ARGOS

STANDARD BEARER

Team members are currently finishing exams for the year so more units on the way later this / next week.
Good luck on your exams and nice work!

:2thumbsup:

[Steppe Merc]

PSYCHO, as a long haired person, I'm hurting that none of the gauls have any long hair! Come on, they need some hair man! ~D

[PSYCHO V]

don't worry mate, plenty of units with long hair from Gallica Commata (Long Hair Gaul). The Militia will have long hair, the warband have long hair, albeit in plats, etc etc...with many more to come.

How do I get to the special area again? I assume that's where the Gaul unit list thread went?

[Ranika]

The northern warbands have long hair! They're just wearing a bowl helmet, and have it braided. And the Britons should have a number of long haired units (pretty much every midlands unit with an exposed head), so you'll be able to get a long hair fix with them too.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

How do I get to the special area again?
I've sent you a PM.


I assume that's where the Gaul unit list thread went?
Yes. I explain why in the PM.

[Stormy]

Oh My!, These Gauls look GREAT!! :2thumbsup:

I see long hair on the NORTHERN WARBAND unit.

[thrashaholic]

Sorry to complain, but the Northern and Sothern Warbands' sword hands are the wrong way around, no-one holds a sword like that, the way they are depicted at present the thumb is at the bottom whereas it should be on the top, the knuckles are also facing inwards when, if one were holding a sword quite naturally, they should face outwards. Likewise with the standard bearer, the hand holding the standard suffers the same problem of an inverted hand. Please correct these little niggles, I wouldn't want such a wonderful project be spoiled by one or two anatomical details.

Please keep up the good work though ~:cheers:

[PROMETHEUS]

Why I haven't received the password....>:-((

[Lord Adherbal]

Sorry to complain, but the Northern and Sothern Warbands' sword hands are the wrong way around,

It problably just looks like that on the screenshots. They didn't change the animation, and probably didn't change the hand textures either - so it must've looked like that in RTW too.
Slightly editing the hand model or moving the weapon downward (closer to the fingers) might fix this effect.

[PSYCHO V]

Adherbal']It problably just looks like that on the screenshots. They didn't change the animation, and probably didn't change the hand textures either - so it must've looked like that in RTW too.
Slightly editing the hand model or moving the weapon downward (closer to the fingers) might fix this effect.


Yup, it's a Vanilla RTW thing, but we really appreciate the feedback and will see what we can do.

[Steppe Merc]

I meant like long, unbraided hair, that the so called uncivlized peoples were famous for... to me it's a mark of uncivilizedness to have short hair, but that's just me. ~D


don't worry mate, plenty of units with long hair from Gallica Commata (Long Hair Gaul).
Sounds like my kinda place! ~D

[PROMETHEUS]

http://img76.exs.cx/img76/8289/a9hj.jpg

Work on progress....

[Stormy]

Wow! Prom. The standard bearer looks good :2thumbsup:

[Colovion]

I have no problem with Southern/Warmer Climate "barbarians" are shirtless but Northern Warbands being shirtless is a total oxymoron.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I have no problem with Southern/Warmer Climate "barbarians" are shirtless but Northern Warbands being shirtless is a total oxymoron.
I agree. I have mentioned it to PSYCHO V a couple of times.

They should look like the guy closest to us in this pic:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt2.jpg

Although we can't see his shirt or it's pattern very well, we can see that he is in no way bare-chested. Also, notice the loose hair.

[PSYCHO V]

Ok a two things:

1) That pic is one of many many different depictions of Gauls, according to history at least, there is no right and wrong here.

2) There is great difficulty in depicting units when we have only one generic warband for all of Transalpine Gaul, some 50 major and 200 minor tribes and through a period of roughly 300 years.


Having said that, I myself have wrestled with this. I left them shirtless because initially I thought it would contrast (for the uninitiated) the difference in equipment with some of the more elite units. I have no problem with putting a shirt on them.

If the rest of EB thinks we should give em a shirt, then a shirt they shall have. Just let me know. Poll ?


..and re the hair, the plats should stay for this unit. It's a generic Gallic feature for a generic Gallic unit. There'll be plenty of other units with variation that'll keep Stepe happy. ~;)

[Ranika]

I'd opt for the shirt as well. Numerous younger, poorer warriors fought bare chested, but in winter, they would, in all reason, don a shirt. The southern warriors could at least wrap themselves in their cloaks if for whatever reason it grew too cold. I think they'd look good with a long, possibly a little loose looking shirt.

And, correctly so, that one picture isn't going to depict the vast differences capable of appearance. Pyscho V's having to work off of some basic guidelines. It is difficult to represent a vast number of tribes (hence why the Briton list had to be pruned heavily, to represent only the most major 'over' cultures in the region, southern tribes, midland tribes, Caledonians, and the Milesians/very very early Gaels). Same problem here, you have to depict a 'catch all' for all those tribes, which had distinct appearances (such as hair colors, eye colors, clothing and colors they may have favored, etc.). I like the warriors as they are, appearance wise, they look good, but reason states that they should probably wear a shirt just for the fact that, realistically, they would during winter.

[PROMETHEUS]

If the rest of EB thinks we should give em a shirt
Lets not start to make guesses on history , if they were said to be shirtless so they should be ...I don't want inventions there ... otherwise why I shouln't place fur capes to romans throusers and so on.???

[eadingas]

Do legionnaires differ in clothes depending on where they fight - the deserts or the winter north? (I'm asking, I just don't know)

[Dead Moroz]

http://img76.exs.cx/img76/8289/a9hj.jpg
Work on progress....
Very good!!! :thumbsup:

But does this guy suppose to act his standard as club? :clown:

[PROMETHEUS]

Do legionnaires differ in clothes depending on where they fight - the deserts or the winter north?

Of course they did , U think that walking in the snow with a skirt and sandals would be good? O r that walking in the desert with furs? The reconstructions are made from the standarized image of the legionaries and foes but of course they did differ in dress according to the seasons , but since we can't implement this we should suppose they all dress their normal spring time dress this means naked barbarians and skirt legions....

[eadingas]

Actually, we could give the north-recruited legions some furs (and low resistance to heat) and south-recruited legions some lighter clothes (and low resistance to snow)...if we'd have some unit space left... it would give some variety to Roman units...
And as for Northern Warband and summer clothes - well, I suppose if we make Britons fight shirtless (do we?) which are further north and live in even colder climate, then it's okay for the Gauls to fight shirtless too.
But the guy in the picture, with the mountains on background - can I request them to be used for the 'Eastern Warband' rebel unit, for Central Europe Celts? Here the climate is harsher, and there's much more mountains and highlands to fight in, so I think shirted warriors would be more prevalent than in France, Spain or Britain.

[PROMETHEUS]

Actually, we could give the north-recruited legions some furs (and low resistance to heat) and south-recruited legions some lighter clothes (and low resistance to snow)...if we'd have some unit space left... it would give some variety to Roman units...

Sorry but this is not a good idea , since what will happen if i want to move my north legions to conquer the siria and palestina or vice versa?
No the best is to keep them all in spring dress and just leave the norhteners the bonus on snow and the southeners the bonus on desert , the romans no bonuses.....

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I agree with PROMETHEUS. Besides, Romans already get a penalty in hot climates and barbarians a bonus in cold ones.

[eadingas]

Yeah, but it all assumes we're talking only about units recruited in their historical regions... what about legionnaires recruited in Sahara or Siberia? Although it probably won't happen if we get the Regional recruitment system working. Anyway, it was just an idea...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Lets not start to make guesses on history , if they were said to be shirtless so they should be ...I don't want inventions there ... otherwise why I shouln't place fur capes to romans throusers and so on.???
PROMETHEUS, the Osprey picture is not an invention. Gauls fought naked in 600BC-500BC, not later on. So, there is no reason for them not to have a shirt.

[PROMETHEUS]

in 600BC-500BC, not later on. So, there is no reason for them not to have a shirt.

no Some wear some did not , some were even completely naked , this was a prove of valour , also the mail and armours were more for who could afford them since there wasn't a central unified government that provided mail suits to all ...the celts had more an eterogeneal army not an army made of unified style troops....anyway if u look to the Galatian statue depicts a naked barbarian celt and this is not from 600 BC, Celts keept their costumes till the end and Caesar too described naked warbands....so lets stay close to what is fact not make guesses were is not needed....

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

no Some wear some did not , some were even completely naked , this was a prove of valour , also the mail and armours were more for who could afford them since there wasn't a central unified government that provided mail suits to all ...the celts had more an eterogeneal army not an army made of unified style troops....
I never said they weren't heterogeneal. But in different times, they fought differently and dressed diferently.


anyway if u look to the Galatian statue depicts a naked barbarian celt and this is not from 600 BC, Celts keept their costumes till the end and Caesar too described naked warbands....so lets stay close to what is fact not make guesses were is not needed....
Sorry, PROMETHEUS! The only naked warbands that Romans encountered were Gaesatee.

Besides, Galatians were isolated from Celtic incluence after their migratory/raider effort in to Greece in 274 BC.

[Ranika]

The northern tribes in this period would've worn shirts, it's not an 'invention', it's common sense. It got very cold in the north, and during winter, they would have to have some type of clothing to keep them warm. As stated, southern warbands have their cloaks to wrap in if for whatever reason it grows too cold (and so did Gaesatae, for that matter, who often wore a cloak to a battle, and sometimes discarded it before the fight). A warrior with no source of warmth at all in the north of Gaul, during winter, would most likely freeze to death. They may have been like the Belgae, who did fight bare chested, but wore a heavy cloak in winter and discarded it right before battle, and thus were not too chilled yet by the cold, but the Belgae are getting their own unit.

[PROMETHEUS]

http://home.uchicago.edu/~hejacobs/gaul.jpg http://www.republiquelibre.org/cousture/images7/GAUL09.GIF

The first is a statue from Pergamon in modern Turkey may be a Roman copy of a third-century BC bronze statue that was part of a group commemorating a Hellenistic victory over the Galatians, who were Celtic settlers in Asia Minor. Or it may be the original.


The second is Statue of a Gaulish warrior discovered in denmark of 2nd cent BC

distant enough and the second is enough north !!!


Sorry, PROMETHEUS! The only naked warbands that Romans encountered were Gaesatee.

Besides, Galatians were isolated from Celtic incluence after their migratory/raider effort in to Greece in 274 BC.

The bravery of the Celts in battle is legendary. They often spurned body armour, going naked into battle. Celtic society was typically more equal in terms of gender roles. Women were on more or less equal footing as men, being accomplished warriors, merchants and rulers. Other Roman historians tell us more of the Celts. Diodorus notes that:

Their aspect is terrifying...They are very tall in stature, with rippling muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not naturally so: they bleach it, to this day, artificially, washing it in lime and combing it back from their foreheads. They look like wood-demons, their hair thick and shaggy like a horse's mane. Some of them are clean-shaven, but others - especially those of high rank, shave their cheeks but leave a moustache that covers the whole mouth and, when they eat and drink, acts like a sieve, trapping particles of food...The way they dress is astonishing: they wear brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the separate checks close together and in various colours.



[The Celts] wear bronze helmets with figures picked out on them, even horns, which made them look even taller than they already are...while others cover themselves with breast-armour made out of chains. But most content themselves with the weapons nature gave them: they go naked into battle...Weird, discordant horns were sounded, [they shouted in chorus with their] deep and harsh voices, they beat their swords rhythmically against their shields.


Ordinary Celtic soldiers, often naked except for golden neck torcs, worked themselves into a fury before entering into battle and then fought wildly like beasts. After battle a victorious Celt would ride off with the heads of slain enemies dangling from the neck of his horse. Later, the heads would be nailed to the doors of their homes or embalmed with cedar oil in order to be publicly displayed. Typically, this preservation treatment of heads was reserved for distinguished, high-ranking enemies. Diodorus also describes how the Celts cut off their enemies' heads and nailed them over the doors of their huts, as Diodorus states:

In exactly the same way as hunters do with their skulls of the animals they have slain...they preserved the heads of their most high-ranking victims in cedar oil,
keeping them carefully in wooden boxes.

Diodorus Siculus, History.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The first is a statue from Pergamon in modern Turkey may be a Roman copy of a third-century BC bronze statue that was part of a group commemorating a Hellenistic victory over the Galatians, who were Celtic settlers in Asia Minor. Or it may be the original.

The second is Statue of a Gaulish warrior discovered in denmark of 2nd cent BC

distant enough and the second is enough north !!!
LOL :grin:

Most Greek statues are naked and a lot of the Roman ones are too. Does that mean that Greeks and Romans fought naked? No. It's just an artistic depiction. Classical sculpting.

Do not make irreflected remarks without other evidence. This ones aren't evidence...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The bravery of the Celts in battle is legendary. They often spurned body armour, going naked into battle. Celtic society was typically more equal in terms of gender roles. Women were on more or less equal footing as men, being accomplished warriors, merchants and rulers. Other Roman historians tell us more of the Celts. Diodorus notes that:

Their aspect is terrifying...They are very tall in stature, with rippling muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not naturally so: they bleach it, to this day, artificially, washing it in lime and combing it back from their foreheads. They look like wood-demons, their hair thick and shaggy like a horse's mane. Some of them are clean-shaven, but others - especially those of high rank, shave their cheeks but leave a moustache that covers the whole mouth and, when they eat and drink, acts like a sieve, trapping particles of food...The way they dress is astonishing: they wear brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the separate checks close together and in various colours.

[The Celts] wear bronze helmets with figures picked out on them, even horns, which made them look even taller than they already are...while others cover themselves with breast-armour made out of chains. But most content themselves with the weapons nature gave them: they go naked into battle...Weird, discordant horns were sounded, [they shouted in chorus with their] deep and harsh voices, they beat their swords rhythmically against their shields.

Ordinary Celtic soldiers, often naked except for golden neck torcs, worked themselves into a fury before entering into battle and then fought wildly like beasts. After battle a victorious Celt would ride off with the heads of slain enemies dangling from the neck of his horse. Later, the heads would be nailed to the doors of their homes or embalmed with cedar oil in order to be publicly displayed. Typically, this preservation treatment of heads was reserved for distinguished, high-ranking enemies. Diodorus also describes how the Celts cut off their enemies' heads and nailed them over the doors of their huts, as Diodorus states:

In exactly the same way as hunters do with their skulls of the animals they have slain...they preserved the heads of their most high-ranking victims in cedar oil,
keeping them carefully in wooden boxes.

Diodorus Siculus, History.
From what era is that? What era is he talking about? 500BC? 100BC?

As I've said previously, but you failed to listen, it depends on the era!!! It makes all the difference in the world.

Roman military equipment and habits evolved, so did the Celtic and others, albeit less...

[eadingas]

Actually, IIRC Diodorus writes about Ceasar's wars in Gaul, so it's quite relevant. However, both the statues (the second one doesn't look Roman/Greek, so it might be the real thing) and Diodorus' account point to Gaesetae, naked fanatics, not regular warriors of the warbands. We already have the Gaesetae unit, right?

[Ranika]

Gaesatae are going to be mercenaries available in Gaul, so the 'naked Gauls' are going to have a presence.

[PROMETHEUS]

As I've said previously, but you failed to listen, it depends on the era!!! It makes all the difference in the world.

No I didn't failed to read,look to the following threads before this....
and is not really a matter of time period but of cultural habits , some of (not all) to prove their valour fought naked even if they could have adopted mail or other armours.....


Do not make irreflected remarks without other evidence. This ones aren't evidence...

And sorry but Archeological finds are evidence! all the other things are iphothesys....

[khelvan]

No I didn't failed to read,look to the following threads before this....
and is not really a matter of time period but of cultural habits , some of (not all) to prove their valour fought naked even if they could have adopted mail or other armours.....

And sorry but Archeological finds are evidence! all the other things are iphothesys....

One must also use logic with regards to archaeology. You cannot simply dismiss what eadingas and others are saying because it does not fit with your idea.

Otherwise, every find is open to not only interpretation, but wild speculation.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

No I didn't failed to read, look to the following threads before this....
and is not really a matter of time period but of cultural habits , some of (not all) to prove their valour fought naked even if they could have adopted mail or other armours.....
Some? Not most? OK. Then we agree. For me some are: Gaesatee and Southern Warband. Period.


And sorry but Archeological finds are evidence! all the other things are iphothesys....
Really? So I can say that all Greeks and some Romans fought naked. I have Archeological finds to prove it too. Just look at all the Greeek and Roman statues spread all over the place...

[chemchok]

The Roman copy of the Dying Gallatian Trumpeter from Pergamon is a Hellenistic heroic nude, it does not mean that Gallatian's fought naked, end of story. It is a useful reference for the facial features of a Gallatian, but that's about it.

[PROMETHEUS]

Gallatian's fought naked, end of story. It is a useful reference for the facial features of a Gallatian, but that's about it.

completely wrong .... if it was an artistical vision then they would have made him with the heroic helm , may be a sword and a greek style shield , not spiked hair , mustaches , nakes and torque with as is known is been described right like this by many authors ....



Quote:

Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS
And sorry but Archeological finds are evidence! all the other things are iphothesys....

Really? So I can say that all Greeks and some Romans fought naked. I have Archeological finds to prove it too. Just look at all the Greeek and Roman statues spread all over the place...

Lol should I even comment this? ~:handball:

[chemchok]

No, it's a Hellenistic heroic nude, not a Classical heroic nude. He's naked to show the superior physical quality of the enemy that Pergamum had recently defeated. The torc, the details of the face, and the hair are used to make him recongnizable as a Gallatian.

Plus, the Gaul is lying upon his sword, his shield, and his trumpet (though these are partially restored, so they should not be relied upon as historical) - these items were included in the scuplture.

[PROMETHEUS]

This is a Roman copy of a Hellenistic bronze original. Marble. 3rd Century B.C. (c. 240 - 220 B.C.) It is not an heroic nude but a a victory monument, the Dying Gaul is dramatically depicted in mute resignation as he momentarily rests upon his oval shield (Celtic), his trumpet nearby. He manages to keep his body upright by the temporary support of his hand. (The sword is speculated to be a copyist's addition.) The original is sometimes ascribed to the sculptor Epigonos.
The cropped hair, the mustache, the shaven face (probably denoting the Dying Gaul as a chieftain) and the gold tourque or ring around the neck were distinctive characteristics of the "barbaric" Gauls.

[eadingas]

Look, guys, Prometheus especially, it doesn't really matter. Whether it's a real depiction or an allegory, the fact is that both sculptures show NAKED GALLIC WARRIOR. Not a SHIRTLESS gallic warrior with pants. So even if it's a real warrior, it's a Gaeseta, who's already listed in the unit list! And it has nothing to do with whether the northern gauls wore shirts or not!

[chemchok]

From the Grove Dicitonairy of Art:

"The most original and openly sensual Hellenistic nude is perhaps the crouching Aphrodite at her Bath (c. 250 bc; Roman copy, Paris, Louvre). Male nudes were often shown in violent poses, and Pergamese sculptors particularly favoured dramatic subjects, with a strong emotional impact, such as the Dying Gaul (c. 230–220 bc; Rome, Mus. Capitolino), or the superhuman, exaggeratedly contorted Laokoon (Rome, Vatican, Mus. Pio-Clementino)."

and

..."Epigonos, whom Pliny credits with a Trumpeter and a Weeping Child ‘pitifully caressing its murdered mother’ (XXXIV.xix.88), and who also signed eight bases for bronze statues on the Pergamene acropolis, two celebrating victories over the Gauls. No originals by Epigonos survive, but the famous Dying Gaul (Rome, Mus. Capitolino; see Greece, ancient, §IV, 2(iv)(b) and fig. 67) may reproduce his Trumpeter and be copied from one of the signed monuments of c. 223 bc. The warrior wears a Celtic torc and is bleeding from a chest wound, his broken trumpet and sword by his side. The realism of the statue emphasizes its pathos and, by stressing the dignity of the conquered, the statue exalts the achievement of the conquerors."

I have never come across any literature that suggests the "nakedness" of the statues must be taken literally.

EDIT : eadingas is right - this is a useless argument on both sides. Plus, whatever skins we use for the units will look awesome anyway, thanks to Prom, Psycho, and everyone else.

[PROMETHEUS]

I have never come across any literature that suggests the "nakedness" of the statues must be taken literally.

And who said that?

The Celt described is clearly what Eadingas said so is useless u try to say that is just a hellenistic artist vision conformistic to the usual way of making statues....


About shirtless warriors many didn't wear shirts in combat some others did some others had even armours , but the army compositions were etereogeneal and many didn't wore shirts at all...

[chemchok]

Prom, I give up.

IMO, the Capitoline Gaul does not represent a Gaeseta.

Let's agree to disagree.

~:cheers:

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Really? So I can say that all Greeks and some Romans fought naked. I have Archeological finds to prove it too. Just look at all the Greeek and Roman statues spread all over the place...
Lol should I even comment this? ~:handball:
Yes, because you're using exactly the same type of evidence to prove your point.

[PROMETHEUS]

Ok then


The roman art usually , at difference with the greeks made more realistic traits on their statues and less idealistic , even if used the same style , the nudity wasn't a shame to those culture as well as for many others at the time so nudity was also a part of the art system , tough many historical characters are depicted all but nude , so is the same for important foes that were depicted exactly how they were described to the authors , to show the public who was beaten .... in the case of the statue that is a copy of an original greek one , and even if Greeks appreciated to make nude rapresentations of heroes and gods , this is not the case since is not a hero and not a God , is a defeated enemy , plus this statue copy was in the Garden of a Roman historian so probably not just for eye candy ....

[PROMETHEUS]

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/3091/a0cs.jpg

Later Standard bearer....

[Steppe Merc]

I'm very much for putting shirts on them. I hate shirtless warriors... in my opinoin the only ones that shouldn't have the shirt are the Gaestae, who should be naked, and the younger warriors, aka the slingers and javileners.
I think its really dumb to have no shirt on, especially up north. Though in Osprey, they did mention an interesting thing that having no clothes on would help reduce infection, since the clothes couldn't get pushed into the wound. But I'm really against any shirtless units, save the ones that we know a hundred percent did fight naked, or shirtless.

[Stormy]

I guess some shirtless units is ok. I seen a few shirtless units in Osprey books from the falxmen to others.

[khelvan]

Quite frankly, it doesn't seem like there is enough evidence one way or the other to say IF, for certain, the warriors we are depicting (aside from a Gaeseta) would have a shirt on or not. In this case we must go with common sense. Common sense says that a warrior from a cold climate would wear a shirt.

[PSYCHO V]

~D

If I may, I’d like to add a bit:

Your all right. Ever heard the story about a group of blind men describing an Elephant ? Each grabbed a piece of the beast and came to very different conclusions…well that’s what’s happening here imo. We need to look at the big picture.

Some things to note:

* The units in this mod should be depicted as they entered battle. Very little has to do with weather or climate.
* That there were 60 major and 200 minor tribes who dressed differently.
* That there are geographical and period differences in dress.
* That ancient sources are often referring to a different subject matter for the aforementioned reasons.
* Scholars state that it’s important to take Diodorus Siculus in context. The bit about contenting themselves with being naked was, according to sources I’ve read, in relation to the immediate previous comments about breast armour. ie. He’s suggesting that they fought without body armour and probably shirtless.
* The ‘Pergamon Dying Gaul’ is a copy. The original was erected only a few years before the battle of Telamon, in which the Insubres and Boii fought with cloak and pants, the Gaesatae naked. A few scholars suggest that it’s depicting Gaesatae (prominent in this period), but I’m not convinced given that the central part of the monument had a warrior and his slain women together. A possible depiction of a mercenary and his tag along woman, but imo it tends to suggest more of a tribal / family feeling. Most scholars seem to think that it’s artistically archetypal. I tend to agree, either that or the later copy was changed. The sword for one appears a-historical for these people in this period and has caused great debate in ‘scholarly’ circles. The same goes for other parts of the monument.
* Naked warriors are mentioned / referred to / depicted a lot by Greco-Roman sources due their bizaar appearance. Not because they were the most common troops. If you read through the descriptions of Diodorus, Strabo, Polybius, Ammianus Marcellinus, Livy and Caesar, you’ll see that the (full) nakedness (Gaesatae) was the exception rather than the rule.


There are a number of tribes that fought bare chested, including the Boii, Insubres, Volcae, Branovices, Nervii, Menapii, Morini, Bellovaci, Aduatuci, Tolosates, Pictones etc etc but there just as many, if not more that fought fully clothed.
If we are introducing Belgae, then we can probably depict the NW with a more central Gallic feel and thus give them shirts. The Belgae, as Ranika stated, tended to fight bare chested.

[Ranika]

We should put a shirt on the NW, the Belgae are going to be in for a trainable 'Briton' unit, and would like to see them as shared with Gauls, too. The Britons need them so they get sappers remotely early (Laoch also can sap), and maybe a second 'merc' Belgae. However, I think it bares to reasons, Gauls or Britons in control of Belgae territories would probably draw some warriors from them, in the Belgae fashion. Anyway, they would be shirtless, as the average Belgae did, definitely, fight barechested. This way, the NW has a shirt, and the Belgae would help represent the northern tribes of Gaul who fought without shirts. That seems a fair compromise to me. Besides that, the Belgae need a bit of a presence, and this would do that as well.

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah. A few units should be shirtless, but they should be the exception rather than the rule. Besides, I don't really trust the Roman historians, as often they were writing about things that a lot afterwards as well as being far away. But then, other than actual things we pulled from the ground, their really all we have...

[Parmenio]

Seleucid Silver Shields Beta:

http://img51.exs.cx/img51/4150/seleucidbeta27kf.jpg

[SwordsMaster]

Impressive, Parmenio. I like the new shields. I hated those useless tea-pot-sized shields in the vanilla.

[PROMETHEUS]

Very good , just a couple of observations...

the shoulders seem too flat on the top

the shield texture seems too dark on the bottom half part is it an effect of illumination?

the feathers seems to extrude too much on the side and look a bit too big .... about the accuracy of the reconstruction I don't know but I guess you followed the right fonts....

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Lovelly, Parmenio!!! Lovelly!!! :pleased:

[*Ringo*]

Good stuff guys, this has become the only thread i now check regularly. Keep up the good work. Very inspiring, if only i had more time...

*scrambles about trying to find copy of 3dsmax*


*Ringo*

[PROMETHEUS]

http://img139.exs.cx/img139/2059/earlylegion4pk.jpg

Early legion , some small touch up made....

http://img139.exs.cx/img139/5280/samnite2wv.jpg

Samnite Gladiator final version


http://img139.exs.cx/img139/1218/centurionearly3kv.jpg

Centurion early

http://img139.exs.cx/img139/6687/centurionlate9cx.jpg

Centurion late....

[Parmenio]

Looks lush Prometheus :)

The red trim on the Late Centurion scale maybe could use some shading to make it stand out against the red tunic. I don't know if you want to give the Centurions their rods of office?

Btw, what are fonts?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Some image in action of new units.....




http://img66.exs.cx/img66/6709/a7ix.jpg

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/341/b1fq.jpg

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/7541/c1cv.jpg

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/310/d6ip.jpg

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/7612/e0vs.jpg

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/1217/f5jc.jpg
...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Unfortunatelly, the colour of the Liby-Phoenician Infantry's tunic is wrong. And the shield should not have the Greek pattern.

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/6709/a7ix.jpg


Having linen or leather shoulder pads on a metal cuirass is like having cycle tires on a M1 Abrahams. And the Roman helm should have a different angle for the neck guard.

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/341/b1fq.jpg


On the back of cuirass near the neck, between the shoulder pads it is dark. Why?

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/7541/c1cv.jpg


Hastati do not have shield patterns?

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/310/d6ip.jpg
http://img66.exs.cx/img66/7612/e0vs.jpg


Unfortunatelly, the shield of the Celtiberian is wrong. They didn't use this shield. It was one of Celtic design, quite a lot more oval and straight.
http://img66.exs.cx/img66/1217/f5jc.jpg

[Steppe Merc]

What's with all the Roman units? I mean I know some people might think that they're important, but their the most historically correct faction in the game to begin with! Can't we focus on fixing the mockeries before tweaking the boring Romans? Their has been no work done on the Parthians or Scythians, so why are people making changes to the Romans?
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I just don't get it. Their are far more pressing and interesting units to be fixed than the Romans.

[Vercingetorix]

True, but in the end they'll all get done ~:)

[Ranika]

The Romans may be the most accurate, but still need corrections, and the corrections should be relatively quick and easy to do. And some one needs to do them eventually anyway, and if that's what Prom feels like doing, then all the better, gets them out of the way, and then we can focus on the other factions.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

What's with all the Roman units? I mean I know some people might think that they're important, but their the most historically correct faction in the game to begin with! Can't we focus on fixing the mockeries before tweaking the boring Romans? Their has been no work done on the Parthians or Scythians, so why are people making changes to the Romans?
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I just don't get it. Their are far more pressing and interesting units to be fixed than the Romans.
Because PROMETHEUS is Roman...

[Little Legioner]

Guys dont be so harsh critisize Prometheus. You have correct opinions on screens. Works are really good and very close to osprey prints as a reference.

Aymar can you be a roman centurion reincarnate ~:)

[DemonArchangel]

Alriteee....
The early centurion should have mail shoulder guards.
Also, don't centurions have the scabbards on the left?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Guys dont be so harsh critisize Prometheus. You have correct opinions on screens. Works are really good and very close to osprey prints as a reference.
But when Osprey prints conflict with Historical excerpts, they are wrong. Some of the Osprey plates have a bit of artistic licence. That is so in this case and according to what I mentioned in the pictures.


Aymar can you be a roman centurion reincarnate ~:)
I wasn't being sarcastic. PROMETHEUS IS form the city of ROME.

[PSYCHO V]

I understand where Steps coming from but having played with Proms Roman units, they really are a great addition. They look more accurate and are much much better than the originals. Stunning stuff

Prom pretty much finished them so there's not much of a problem imho.
The only minor things that concern me are:

1) The silver bits all over the late centurions lower tunic. What are these?
2) The mask for the standard bearer. IMO, there should be three skins for the Roman standard bearer. Republican, Early Legionary and Imperial / Late Legionary. This can be done without using additional unit spots right? Also, the mask, if used should only be for the Imperial (and the eyes need to be closer set..seems distorted).

my2bob

[PSYCHO V]

Alriteee....
The early centurion should have mail shoulder guards.

No, I believe this is correct

[khelvan]

Keep this in mind if you seem concerned at how screenshots are being replied to:

First, many of our skinners are posting their alpha/beta shots here in this forum, both to get the type of criticism that is being supplied and to tease people with the sort of units we are working on. Constructive criticism is a necessary part of the process of building an EB unit, so that everyone has a chance to comment on what should be changed and, especially, -why-. It is ok to state that a unit is not depicted correctly, though where disputes arise quoting sources is necessary.

Second, we have a lot of people from a lot of different cultures here. North Americans expect someone to give constructive criticism in this sort of manner: "Well, the unit looks great! I would just suggest one or two things..." However, I have seen one of our members from Russia both give responses and expect them this way: "The unit is completely wrong, it needs to be this way!" I assume from our interaction that evaluation of other people's work is handled -very- differently in Russia - what we in America would consider brutally honest without an American sense of courtesy. (I hope you don't mind me using you as an example, DM!)

So just keep these in mind when reading or writing responses. We have people from all over the world, just give each other the benefit of the doubt and assume everyone is trying to help each other before assuming anything else.

Cheers!

[PROMETHEUS]

First , I posted some action pics just for fun not to show them to be criticized since most of them are already aknowledge by Urnamma and me so We know what is to change and what is not .....this was just a show.... when i post instead here pics is for new units that I completed and so those should be criticized


but since some critics comed anyway i will answer here....


Unfortunatelly, the colour of the Liby-Phoenician Infantry's tunic is wrong. And the shield should not have the Greek pattern.

Accordinf to Urnamma discussions the color is fine , the pattern is wrong ...




Having linen or leather shoulder pads on a metal cuirass is like having cycle tires on a M1 Abrahams. And the Roman helm should have a different angle for the neck guard.

that is still your personal opinion on wich Urnamma doesn't agree , I personally know that shoulder pads were used and posted some pics too for thi but I will leave the decision to Urnamma here since is his unit...




On the back of cuirass near the neck, between the shoulder pads it is dark. Why?

? What? Oh if u refer to the back of the Sacred Band phalanx is the hairs long and dark and linked by a little strap of leather but since the sun is on the otherside it looks darker....




Hastati do not have shield patterns?

that is an experiment , to make them look more close to original sculptures where no patterns are visible , I tought I could leave the patterns for the richer and more heavy dressed units....still to be decided tough...





Unfortunatelly, the shield of the Celtiberian is wrong. They didn't use this shield. It was one of Celtic design, quite a lot more oval and straight.

I followed always the same pattern of Osprey , I haven't seen any other plate even from other sources than osprey were other shields are used by this particular unit and all the scutarii or heavy inf seemed to use this one ,I'll ask urnammba about it tough.... about the roundness I think u are right.... and also the used a javelin and not a spear no?
__________________



The early centurion should have mail shoulder guards.
Also, don't centurions have the scabbards on the left?

I made like this since in some representations the triarii do have this pattern onthe mail shoulder so I assumed the centurion to distinguish himself could use it as well My idea could be that since little is known about early and later triarii we could give the later the shield pattern , the 3 feathers and the patternon shoulder , differently from the earlier ones or a compromise between them .... few would have changed instead for the others but the shield pattern may be .....

Also I think you are right about the centurions to keep their scabbard tothe left , but were the pugio then?

-------------------------


1) The silver bits all over the late centurions lower tunic. What are these?

? I don't understand what u refer to , probably the scale mail?


2) The mask for the standard bearer. IMO, there should be three skins for the Roman standard bearer. Republican, Early Legionary and Imperial / Late Legionary. This can be done without using additional unit spots right?

I think so but the early legionary and the republica would differ few and I already made ingame , just not depicted well by any pic....


Also, the mask, if used should only be for the Imperial (and the eyes need to be closer set..seems distorted).
early imperial time like the segmentata units and the scale suit centurions... will fix the eye thing....


What's with all the Roman units? I mean I know some people might think that they're important, but their the most historically correct faction in the game to begin with! Can't we focus on fixing the mockeries before tweaking the boring Romans? Their has been no work done on the Parthians or Scythians, so why are people making changes to the Romans?
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I just don't get it. Their are far more pressing and interesting units to be fixed than the Romans.

Becouse I wanted to make a movie of the carthaginian battle of Cannae , so I needed romans too....


Because PROMETHEUS is Roman...

U accusing me of Factionism...???
This has nothing to do from were I am from infact If you remember I made and completed the full Scythian faction befoure making the romans , but I discarded since was judged not appropiate to the mod and not too realistically close to originals.....


But when Osprey prints conflict with Historical excerpts, they are wrong. Some of the Osprey plates have a bit of artistic licence. That is so in this case and according to what I mentioned in the pictures.

Often the Osprey writere are historical experts who have spent lot of time studiing thos things and so I thrust them in many ways , an example is ... the praetorian guards , there are descriptions of them sculpted in marble dressing metal cuirass like CA did , but the Osprey books describe them with segmentata or other armours couse of deeper historical sources , so is not a free artist license at all , it is a work made in conjunction between the writers historical and the artist.....

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I followed always the same pattern of Osprey , I haven't seen any other plate even from other sources than osprey were other shields are used by this particular unit and all the scutarii or heavy inf seemed to use this one ,I'll ask urnammba about it tough.... about the roundness I think u are right.... and also the used a javelin and not a spear no?

I have seen this shield pattern in other books as well. I have a number of books by a writer called Tim Newark working for blandford publishing, a particular plate showing a iberian celts attacking a roman fort. A light infantry man was armed with a shield identical to this armed with javelins.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

First , I posted some action pics just for fun not to show them to be criticized since most of them are already aknowledge by Urnamma and me so We know what is to change and what is not .....this was just a show.... when i post instead here pics is for new units that I completed and so those should be criticized
This is the Unit Sceeenshots thread. Lets us not spread to thin...


According to Urnamma discussions the color is fine , the pattern is wrong ...
That is not what he told me.


that is still your personal opinion on wich Urnamma doesn't agree , I personally know that shoulder pads were used and posted some pics too for thi but I will leave the decision to Urnamma here since is his unit...
It is not my personal oppinion. I've shown you several depictions of Roman and Greek sources, and it was quite obvious that Metal Cuirasses hadn't Leather or Linen shoulder pads. They didn't had shoulder pads at all, or, at the most, they had Imitation shoulder pads made of METAL. I said a couple of times: "If you want to make shoulder guards to the cuirass, at least make them in METAL!!!"


? What? Oh if u refer to the back of the Sacred Band phalanx is the hairs long and dark and linked by a little strap of leather but since the sun is on the otherside it looks darker....
OK. I couldn't distiguish the hair...


that is an experiment , to make them look more close to original sculptures where no patterns are visible , I tought I could leave the patterns for the richer and more heavy dressed units....still to be decided tough...
Ok. Fair enough.


I followed always the same pattern of Osprey , I haven't seen any other plate even from other sources than osprey were other shields are used by this particular unit and all the scutarii or heavy inf seemed to use this one ,I'll ask urnammba about it tough.... about the roundness I think u are right.... and also the used a javelin and not a spear no?
It's not the pattern!!! It's the shape I'm talking about!!! The Celtiberian shields are not Roman shields!!!

Here are some pics:

http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_i_osuna_01.jpg
http://www.historialago.com/leg_cartago_soldadosesp_03.jpg
http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_i_guerrero_01.jpg
http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_i_vasoguerreros_01.jpg
http://www.historialago.com/leg_cartago_soldadosesp_01.jpg
http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_i_guerreros_01.jpg
http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_i_numancia_sitio_01.jpg

Are these enough for you???



U accusing me of Factionism...???
This has nothing to do from were I am from infact If you remember I made and completed the full Scythian faction befoure making the romans , but I discarded since was judged not appropiate to the mod and not too realistically close to originals.....
Why do people think I'm accusing anyone of anything???!!!! I was stating that, since you're from Rome, you would prefer to do the Romans before the others. I'm doing the same!!! I'll do the Iberians first because I feel the need to make them before the other units that I will eventually work upon. It has nothing to do with Factionism, it has to do with personal taste.

Don't misinterpret what I say...


Often the Osprey writere are historical experts who have spent lot of time studiing thos things and so I thrust them in many ways , an example is ... the praetorian guards , there are descriptions of them sculpted in marble dressing metal cuirass like CA did , but the Osprey books describe them with segmentata or other armours couse of deeper historical sources , so is not a free artist license at all , it is a work made in conjunction between the writers historical and the artist.....
Yes. But you have Urnamma (who is an Academic Schoolar specialized in North African and Eastern Ancient History) to comment Osprey's Historical accuracy. It is good but it has flaws too. Urnamma (and a lot of others) have refered that: "If it conflicts with historical excerpts, then it's wrong. Period." And do you know what? They are right.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I have seen this shield pattern in other books as well. I have a number of books by a writer called Tim Newark working for blandford publishing, a particular plate showing a iberian celts attacking a roman fort. A light infantry man was armed with a shield identical to this armed with javelins.
Are we all speaking English or not? Where did I say that the pattern was wrong? The shield's shape is wrong!!! Not the pattern!!!

Read carefully before you post.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Alright geezer calm down, i know what you said, to be honest i just said i'd seen the pattern before, i didn't say anything about your post or say you were wrong in anyway so go easy mate, no need to blow your stack. Jesus

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Alright geezer calm down, i know what you said, to be honest i just said i'd seen the pattern before, i didn't say anything about your post or say you were wrong in anyway so go easy mate, no need to blow your stack. Jesus
Sorry. I got irritated for no reason. I apologize. I'm a bit stressed... :embarassed:

[PROMETHEUS]

Are we all speaking English or not? Where did I say that the pattern was wrong? The shield's shape is wrong!!! Not the pattern!!!

Read carefully before you post.

Yes and may be you need a couple of glasses tooo?
look here is my previously quoted by u sentence....

.... about the roundness I think u are right....

can u read it now?

Here is instead the Belgae warband asked me by Psicho V , steel needing some work tough ...

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/311/a1xy.jpg

[khelvan]

Ahh, I see things are back to normal. I am playing peacekeeper and Aymar is blowing his lid over nothing! ~D

Aymar, this is getting -far- too involved for the screenshot thread anyways, let's move this to the threads for the appropriate factions. Besides, that way you can let your temper loose on people who are used to it already, not the unsuspecting public! ~;)

You too, Prometheus. Let's try to keep this as uncluttered as possible so people don't have to wade through all sorts of discussion to get to the screenshots, which is what they're here for :)

(And yes, I am aware of why you're responding, I just ask the responses get moved to the appropriate faction threads)

[Ranika]

The Belgae look good, but their shields are too rounded, they carried more angular shields, and one skin of them would have dark blue body paint (Briton Belgae, Gallic Belgae should lack the paint). Pyscho V posted a picture of a model of a Belgae warrior, the Briton should have similar paint designs.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Yes and may be you need a couple of glasses tooo?
look here is my previously quoted by u sentence....

can u read it now?
I read it before pretty well. I was replying to Blind King of Bohemia, not to you.

BTW, the Belgae looks good, but shouldn't the hair and moustache be a bit blonder?

[PROMETHEUS]

Ok what about this?

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/8871/a5re.jpg

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

That fast? :stunned: Great work!!!

[Ranika]

Good, but darken the paint more. The Belgae added a copper solution to their woad, which darkened it to a deep, dark blue, but the designs are very good. The only other request is a variation in tartan colors for the pants between the Gauls and Britons, but that can wait (I imagine it must take longer).

[PROMETHEUS]

The only other request is a variation in tartan colors for the pants between the Gauls and Britons, but that can wait (I imagine it must take longer).

What you mean ? isn't the tartan good?

[Ranika]

The tartan is great, but the Gallic Belgae and Briton Belgae would probably have a variation of colors. I'd suggest blue in place of the yellow, since the southern Britons and the associated Belgic tribes used more blue dyes. However, not the 'Briton' blue from vanilla, they would use a darker blue, almost purple color.

That and the Belgae are for both Gauls and Britons, and Belgic peoples in each one would look a bit different, due to the dyes available (and British Belgic tribes would paint themselves but Gallic Belgic tribes would not).

[PROMETHEUS]

retattooes...
http://img27.exs.cx/img27/5555/a6lw.jpg