Unit Screenshots [Archive] - Page 4

DemonArchangel

12-19-2004, 01:36

http://www.legionxxiv.org/centurionpage/

That one says that the centurions wore it on the left hip. I know about the bayonet grip draw Aymar.

http://www.westair-reproductions.com/westair/painted_figures/minrfig1.htm

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/185367303X/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-5995549-0323817#reader-link

Greece and Rome at war. I've read it before, and it seems reputable enough, considering the author used historical finds as basis for his drawings.

Yes the Centurion's sword is on the left.

PROMETHEUS

12-19-2004, 02:38

That one says that the centurions wore it on the left hip

You are right the Centurions had the gladius on their left while the legionaries on their right ....

PROMETHEUS

12-19-2004, 12:38

http://img135.exs.cx/img135/6529/a1bt.jpg

What about this variance for the Britons?

PROMETHEUS

12-19-2004, 13:33

and a battle screen...

http://img160.exs.cx/img160/7858/a7yz.jpg

http://img135.exs.cx/img135/6104/a8ju.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-19-2004, 16:53

Top notch work, PROMETHEUS!!! :2thumbsup:

PROMETHEUS

12-19-2004, 19:07

http://img134.exs.cx/img134/7829/a2sn.jpg

Final version , with new pattern for the Briton shield , and torcs added and all cas files made ....

AggonyDuck

12-19-2004, 19:35

I must say that those guys look fearsome ~:eek:

Colovion

12-19-2004, 20:04

Yeah - awesome work Prom, them are some excellent Briton skins.

Those > Originals

Stormy

12-19-2004, 21:55

Awesome looking Belgae, I like both variants.

Ranika

12-19-2004, 22:37

The Belgae look excellent. The skins there, the Gallic skin will actually be the 'rebel' variant, the Gallic variant will lack body paint. Both look excellent though, I am very pleased to see them coming along so well.

And they should look fierce, the Belgae contained some of the most fierce tribes of Celtic warriors, like the Nervii.

PROMETHEUS

12-19-2004, 23:42

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/1733/a1ow.jpg

HERE is a first work in progres on the Helveetii unit....

PSYCHO V

12-20-2004, 00:03

~:eek: ~D stop your making me cry !

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-20-2004, 00:09

Awesome cuirass and helm!!! :stunned: Awesome!!! It looks just like a pic I've seen!!! And this is just a prototype... :pleased:

PROMETHEUS

12-20-2004, 21:21

http://img22.exs.cx/img22/7849/a5ey.jpg

Ok here is a first poreview in game please tell me what to change and what is ok....

http://img22.exs.cx/img22/3739/a1lz.jpg

Ranika

12-20-2004, 21:25

The shield should be more rectangular, I apologize, I was tired and had somehow confused rectangular and square. They should be more rectangular shields, but otherwise it looks fine. Totally my mistake, should've correct you before you did that, sorry.

PROMETHEUS

12-21-2004, 00:18

http://img71.exs.cx/img71/6291/a4dn.jpg

What about this? I will rotate the shield to make it possible to the lances to go past the shield without clippings.....

Barbarian King

12-21-2004, 01:22

Man, i just want to say that your work gets better everytime i see it ~:cheers:

I just cant wait to get this mod :bow:

PROMETHEUS

12-21-2004, 01:47

http://img89.exs.cx/img89/5273/a8br.jpg

Ok I have rotated of 90 degrees the shields at least they have less lances clipping , but the clipping still remains for some , I guess There isn't much else I can do about this , I have tried severall combinations but is always the same....

PSYCHO V

12-21-2004, 03:04

Brilliant work Prom !!

A few suggestions:

* Shield should be this shape

http://www.arms-armor.cz/catalog/files_products/th_sh053.jpg

We're not actually too sure of the design they would have used, but anything from the Southern Halstatt B culture would be fine.

* Needs a torc

* Need thick wrist bands

* Belt needs to be thicker

* The Cheek guards shouldn't really be there. If your set on including them may I suggest smaller rounded triangular ones.

* The checkered pattern needs some work..and I'd reduce it in size a tad, esp around the sleeves.

* I'd give them a cloak in some other colour than the reddish

Lovin this...See History come to life on your screen !

my2bob

PROMETHEUS

12-21-2004, 03:40

http://img135.exs.cx/img135/6044/b6jk.jpg

http://img135.exs.cx/img135/8832/a7oj.jpg

* Shield should be this shape

fixed

Were not actually too shure of the design they would have used, but anything from the Southern Halstatt B culture would be fine.

I used a pattern that Ranika suggested me from a Helvetii leader....

* Needs a torc

they already have

* Need thick wrist bands

added

* Belt needs to be thicker

?

* The Cheek guards shouldn't really be there. If your set on including them may I suggest smaller rounded triangular ones.

removed

* The checkered pattern needs some work..and I'd reduce it in size a tad, esp around the sleeves.

fixed

* I'd give them a cloak in some other colour than the reddish

From discussions with ranika I think this is the better , tenue light reddish tartanlike colour and pattern....

Stormy

12-21-2004, 04:19

:jawdrop: Jawesome!!!! :guitarist:

Stormy

12-21-2004, 04:24

Prom, You are truly impetuous. You are like a fighter that keeps on going and going and a fighter that won't stop! :thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-21-2004, 05:00

Fantastic work, PROMETHEUS!!! :thumbsup:

But there are two details that need fixing.

1.The lower part of the trousers need to be wider (near the shoe).
2.The crest. You can use a rectangular shape and use alpha oclusion in the texture map to draw the shape. You will spare polygons and time with this. Remember the procedure for feathers on helmets?

PSYCHO V

12-21-2004, 15:57

Agree on both accounts.. esp #2

PROMETHEUS

12-21-2004, 19:17

1.The lower part of the trousers need to be wider (near the shoe).

fixed

2.The crest. You can use a rectangular shape and use alpha oclusion in the texture map to draw the shape. You will spare polygons and time with this. Remember the procedure for feathers on helmets?

I know but this don't work if the part in question is not in 2d but on 3d and so is there , anyway if this is still disturbing I could make it only a 2 d variant but then u won't be able to see the point from the frontal view.....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-21-2004, 19:34

fixed
Thanks. ~:)

I know but this don't work if the part in question is not in 2d but on 3d and so is there , anyway if this is still disturbing I could make it only a 2 d variant but then u won't be able to see the point from the frontal view.....
Ok, I understand.

But for that to happen, you must look straight at the face of the soldier, and all of the other soldiers within the unit will have the head slightly tilted. So, the problem will only affect one soldier at a time. Try it and see if it works. Working or not, both solution are fine by me.

Little Legioner

12-21-2004, 21:16

Prom, You are truly impetuous. You are like a fighter that keeps on going and going and a fighter that won't stop! :thumbsup:

He has unique strong passion on RTW. He is my hero :charge:

PSYCHO V

12-22-2004, 01:03

I'd like to be able to see the crest from the front. If it cant be done without it, I'd rather keep what Prom's already done.

my2bob

Zanderpants

12-22-2004, 08:24

Sigh, those are absolutely amazing. I'm starting to check this thread every other day to see if more unit pics have been put up. It's so sad. :embarassed: . Shouldn't the crest bee a bit higher and steeper though? I've seen those types of helmets before in person, and the ones that I have seen tend to be a bit higher. Not an expert, just mentioning it. Can't wait for more! :2thumbsup:

radcan

12-22-2004, 18:08

Why dont u make a fat celt for once im sure there must of been fat/large if i want to be politically correct , celts im sure they wid of been clet or british though i dont thin the germans wood
of.

The Blind King of Bohemia

12-22-2004, 19:20

The Celtic warrior would have been tall muscular individuals and one for one a celt would outmatch a legionary, even roman writers would admit to this. The statue of the celt put much fear into the much smaller roman but they used other techniques in order to solve this problem with better organisation and cohesive tactics to enable victory.

PROMETHEUS

12-22-2004, 19:25

Legends that pass in the mouths of the ones who didn't were testimones in perosns , The celtys were higer yes nut the avarage legionary was a bit more than one meter and 70 cms , the 1.70 was the entry levelk to be in the legion , while the Celts reached even 1.80 but not much more , the germans instead reached higer ranges even 1.85 at the best ....

DemonArchangel

12-23-2004, 01:02

Err... no... 1 Roman foot is shorter than 1 modern foot.

The avg. legionary was apt to be something like 5'3 while your avg. celt was like 6 ft.

PROMETHEUS

12-23-2004, 01:58

No you are wrong the Roman standards to accept people in the legion is that they had not to be shorter than 1.70 cms

anyway here is the Lybian spearmen need to know how it looks now...
:charge:
http://img133.exs.cx/img133/4117/a5ww.jpg

http://img133.exs.cx/img133/5711/a2fc.jpg

DemonArchangel

12-23-2004, 02:51

Palm of the right hand doesn't face outwards.
On normal people anyway.

PROMETHEUS

12-23-2004, 14:29

http://img133.exs.cx/img133/2299/a6aw.jpg

eadingas

12-23-2004, 16:17

Palm of the right hand doesn't face outwards.
On normal people anyway.

It does in RTW. It's the CA bug, I think somebody here got the poor job of correcting it already :)

Meneldil

12-23-2004, 17:51

Are you going to make new animations for the hoplite and phalanx units ?

PSYCHO V

12-24-2004, 00:24

Lovely model Prom !

Aymar de Bois Mauri

12-24-2004, 03:49

Are you going to make new animations for the hoplite and phalanx units ?
Let's wait and see... :wink:

Shigawire

01-01-2005, 22:55

Crests are not supposed to be worn by every single Spartan soldier. Only for officers of each pentekostye, and an transverse crest for the Polemarch..

Crests had the same function as the stars on officers' uniforms these days. As well as the function of quickly identifying friend from foe, similar to the IFF systems in modern fighterjets.

Divinus Arma

01-07-2005, 01:56

From this junior member...

I finally read through this thread (took several hours). There are some incredibly talented individuals working on this project...

My main reason for visiting the Org these days is to check on the progress of this Mod. In fact, Europa Barbarorum inspired me to join and begin posting!

Astonishing work folks, astonishing. I hope you all have resumes submitted to developers. It takes true individual dedication to effectively contribute to this massive and complex undertaking with no monetary compensation.

Europa Barbarorum is stirring up anticipation for higher standards in gaming production from this gamer. I hope CA is paying serious attention to the modding community and the potential modding has for their target markets.

Please continue with your impressive labors. I think I'll begin to look into modding myself (despite a 40+hr work week and full time university study).

Warmest regards,

Divinus Arma

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-07-2005, 03:00

Thank you indeed for your kind words. :bow:

I think I speak in name of the whole team when I say that, although this project has always been approached more as a way to make ourselves happy, when playing RTW, than for any recognition, we always apreciate when people demonstrate such interest for the MOD.

I hope we can make all people's expectations more than fulfilled... :bow:

GeWee

01-08-2005, 21:39

Having read through this entire thread I must say I'm very impressed with the work you guys are doing. Very professional work indeed!
I really only have one thing to question and that is the physical fitness appearance of some of the units with bare chest...
Particularly the abs of some barbarian units look really really big.. Maybe tone the muscles down a bit so they don't all look like they're pumped up on steroids?
Maybe fatten some of those units up just a bit too? I mean, even for present day soldiers it's not very smart to get rid of all your body fat as that will make your body get cold very fast when you're in the field, so imagine how it must be for those Gauls in the winter... :p

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-09-2005, 19:14

Retouched PROMETHEUS's Numidian units and reskinned the Numidian Slinger:

Numidian Cavalry (removed harness on the horse and minor touches in the tunic and shield):

http://img69.exs.cx/img69/8449/forumebmodunitsnumidianumidian.jpg

Numidian Javelinmen (minor touches in the tunic and shield):

http://img147.exs.cx/img147/8449/forumebmodunitsnumidianumidian.jpg

Numidian Slingers (new skin reworked from PROMETHEUS's Numidian Javelinmen skin):

http://img147.exs.cx/img147/7166/forumebmodunitsnumidianumidian1.jpg

DemonArchangel

01-09-2005, 21:55

Aw...
Nice.

Alexander the Pretty Good

01-11-2005, 02:06

Nice, indeed.

I was getting worried that you guys weren't going to post any more screenshots!

Thanks! ~:cheers:

PSYCHO V

01-11-2005, 04:12

In that case ..here's a Belgae unit in progress

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/1belgae.jpg

QwertyMIDX

01-11-2005, 08:02

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/3664/o0ga.jpg

In the meanwhile look the new revamped equites.....

Are you guys ditching the blue shield and going with faction colors?

QwertyMIDX

01-11-2005, 08:13

http://img54.exs.cx/img54/8964/i5ka.jpg

Sacred band infantry with linen cuirass.....

Why do the Sacred band infantry and calvary both have the Greek style meander pattern on thier shield edges? I was unaware that it was ever used in Carathage expect perhaps by hire mercs, which the Sacred Band obviously aren't.

Dead Moroz

01-11-2005, 09:47

QwertyMIDX

01-11-2005, 12:24

Do you plan on naming the units things like Northern Warband, Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry and Iberian Infantry or something closer to what the Guals or Carths would actually have referred to them as? Maybe just 'Heavy Spearman' in whatever lang you're using for Carth (I'd guess Hebrew).

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-11-2005, 15:52

Are you guys ditching the blue shield and going with faction colors?Just for the Romans because of their similar units.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-11-2005, 15:53

Why do the Sacred band infantry and calvary both have the Greek style meander pattern on thier shield edges? I was unaware that it was ever used in Carathage expect perhaps by hire mercs, which the Sacred Band obviously aren't.A lapse by PROMETHEUS. Some details still need to be worked out.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-11-2005, 16:47

I think you should add beard to them (slightly, as on my avatar's pic ~:) ). 'Cause on Numidians coins and on Roman depictions Numidians always have beard.Are you sure? Most of this graphical work was based on this:

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/6866/numidianhorse.jpg

Although you might have a point if we look to this:

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/5164/numidians.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-11-2005, 18:04

QwertyMIDX

01-11-2005, 18:44

Just for the Romans because of their similar units.

I assume that this means EB is keeping the Roman families game system even though it is completely out of whack for the early time period of the game. Is there no better way of dealing this?

khelvan

01-11-2005, 19:26

... in whatever lang you're using for Carth (I'd guess Hebrew).Just out of curiosity, did you know from elsewhere that we were planning on using Hebrew for Phoenician-Punic in names and the voices, or did you guess on your own? If so, what is your background? That was something we weren't planning on until speaking to one of the world's foremost experts in Phoenician-Punic.

I assume that this means EB is keeping the Roman families game system even though it is completely out of whack for the early time period of the game. Is there no better way of dealing this?This hasn't been decided yet. We are at an impasse here, for the moment. We are testing several different options.

QwertyMIDX

01-11-2005, 21:29

Well the language spoken by the Carths would have been of the Canaanite branch of Semitic languages of which Hebrew is a part. I figured it would a lot easier to find someone who could speak Hebrew than someone could be speak say Punic (which as far as I know was pretty much finished as a language by the end of the 5th or 6th century A.D.) and it would probably be just as accurate as any thing that could be scraped together from ancient sources.

I don't really have any background I'm just a 1st year History student at McGill (I'm not even doing ancient history I'm doing English speaking peoples) I just happen to be something of a history nerd.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-11-2005, 21:43

I just happen to be something of a history nerd.What do you think half of the EB guys are?.... :smile:

QwertyMIDX

01-12-2005, 00:01

What do you think half of the EB guys are?.... :smile:

Oh I know, I can tell when I'm among my own ~;). Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Khelvan was hoping for slightly more impressive credentials. I'd be happy to try and help if you'd like though, although I’m pretty sure most of the historical research I could be helpful with has already been completed.

Dead Moroz

01-12-2005, 09:52

Are you sure?
You gotta use primary sources, man. :whip: ~:smoking:

http://img106.exs.cx/img106/8958/numa12yb.jpg
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/4655/numa25uy.jpg
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/2815/numa31ru.jpg
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/4480/numa43ad.jpg
http://img106.exs.cx/img106/9105/numa52fm.jpg

Byzantine Prince

01-12-2005, 16:34

I agree with that. What's the point of posting book illustrations. They don't really represent real life.

Little Legioner

01-12-2005, 16:41

what really represents real life? we are talking about ancient times. not close future or current time period.

it is very hard to reflect ancient times like a mirror. ~:handball:

PSYCHO V

01-12-2005, 16:59

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/1Helvetii.jpg

Mori Gaesum (Helvetii) by Prom.

GeWee

01-12-2005, 17:02

Helvetii? Aren't those rebels? Wow, are you making different skins for all the rebel factions too??

eadingas

01-12-2005, 17:06

Of course. That's one of the main big things of this mod.

GeWee

01-12-2005, 17:34

I did not know that. I thought they would be generic like in the original game. Personally, since I'm lazy probably, I would have thought it to be too much work to redesign every single rebel faction but apparently you don't and for that I thank you. ~:cheers:

eadingas

01-12-2005, 17:37

There will be NOTHING generic about EB :) We're trying to put as much detail as is possible, given certain restrictions CA puts on us (limit on number of units, no new factions, etc.)

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-12-2005, 17:43

You gotta use primary sources, man. :whip: ~:smoking:

http://img106.exs.cx/img106/4655/numa25uy.jpgLOL :grin: Read the text, DM!!! Just read the text... :laugh4:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-12-2005, 17:51

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/1Helvetii.jpg

Mori Gaesum (Helvetii) by Prom.Beautifull rework of texture, PSYCHO!!! :thumbsup:

Crazed Rabbit

01-12-2005, 18:02

I can't wait to play R:TW with actual distinct units instead of having "spear warband" as the main unit for all barbs from Gual to Dacia. Not to mention barbs that can actually fight with the Romans instead of playing Mordor and attacking with endless ork legions.

LOL Read the text, DM!!! Just read the text...

Far be it from me to ponder such things, but if the actual column, built by Romans who actually fought the numidians, is based on heresay, then what is that osprey drawing based on?

Anyways, keep up the good work!

Crazed Rabbit

Ranika

01-12-2005, 18:17

Osprey isn't actually too accurate much of the time. A lot of Osprey can be stylized or simply wrong sometimes, so we only use it as a source if none others can be found. We've been able to make some very good units though, with plenty of primary and reliable secondary sources to base things from. Osprey is a last resort, and Roman accounts aren't always all too accurate either (like 'lazy Gauls' in Carthaginian armies, despite their statements, right beforehand, how hard the Gauls were working for the Carthaginians). We can usually (but not always),find better sources, archaeological as well as textual, for the units and armies.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-12-2005, 18:27

Far be it from me to ponder such things, but if the actual column, built by Romans who actually fought the numidians, is based on heresay, then what is that osprey drawing based on?Like Ranika posted, we use all highly reliable historical sources before consulting other material. Rest assured it will be accurate. In EB, we are ready to recognize when another person, also investigating the issue, has found a more reliable source that contradicts the ones we have. All for the sake of Historical accuracy.

I was just teasing Dead Moroz. :joker:

Anyways, keep up the good work!

Crazed RabbitThanks. We will... ~:)

PROMETHEUS

01-13-2005, 13:44

version 1

http://img139.exs.cx/img139/2059/earlylegion4pk.jpg

Version 2

http://img101.exs.cx/img101/8563/legionary26vy.jpg

Ok I would like to know opinions on the following changes I made and what looks more realistic between version 1 and 2 , apart from the shield that now has the proper form that should have....

Things changed

1 shield

2 mail hauberk

3 face

4 scabbard

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-13-2005, 14:03

Welcome back, PROMETHEUS!!! ~:wave:

Regarding the unit:

-Why change the hauberk pattern?
-Face too blurry.
-On both models (in fact, on all Roman models) the scabard is too thin for the gladius they hold. Thicken the scabard a little.

Nothing else...

PROMETHEUS

01-13-2005, 14:20

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-13-2005, 14:59

Ok but the mail pattern I made has a deeper fitted trama that was used at the time the one of the game instead has rings as large as fingers , also the colour scheme is more realistic to my opinion and the directions of the lines follow more the body in the second version ....OK. After reading your explanation I agree with the mail pattern change.

but of course I need opinions, the shield is better like is now , more close to the originalsIMHO, the shield is perfect now.

also the scabbard is taken by the sword so has the same size of itI opened your models in MAX and it didn't seem so. It seemed rather thin. Maybe that was because of the texture being a bit small.

Besides, the scabard should be larger than the sword to be able to hold it. Or else it wouldn't fit. :wink:

...for the face , yes is more blurry but isn't more realistic this?Nope. I don't agree.

http://img64.exs.cx/img64/9853/1promii7vg.jpg

new version slightly modified by Psicho V....I see no difference except for the face. And the less blurry the face, the better.

PROMETHEUS

01-13-2005, 15:23

I see no difference except for the face. And the less blurry the face, the better

Ok this later version slightly modified by Psicho is a less "rusty" version , personally I think a more rusty version adds realism and should be used for all the other mail textures but I would like to understand if this is just a question of tastes or it would be better to favour a rusty one or a more polished one? Neitherless to say that I still have to add some lighter parts on the abdomen abd backs...

eadingas

01-13-2005, 15:34

I think what Aymar is trying to say is, use your version for the body, and Psycho's version for the face, and then it will be just right...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-13-2005, 16:23

I think what Aymar is trying to say is, use your version for the body, and Psycho's version for the face, and then it will be just right...That is not PSYCHO's face. That is RTW's vannila face. PSYCHO probally reduced the amount of "dirt" in the texture.

I personnaly would go for more dirt but with the standard RTW face. At least until a better one can be made.

Dead Moroz

01-13-2005, 16:27

I like chain mail in version 1. It looks really like chain mail. It's really metallic. In version 2 it looks like strange, very wide felt wear. ~:confused: And legionaries now looks like Chinese warriors. You gotta sell your texture to that Chinese mod, Prom. ~;)

The face in version 2 is too blurry indeed.

Parmenio

01-13-2005, 17:08

I seen reenactors with mail as dark as (2), then again I've seen lighter mail like (1) as well, which additionally tends to be depicted most often in Osprey style illustrations.

PROMETHEUS

01-13-2005, 17:52

Ok here there are 4 version , in order

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/9646/versions9kj.jpg

version not rusty and with highlights

version not rusty less shiny

version rusty , more dark

version of CA

I think the third version looks more realistic...

remember that the mail trama of CA is on my opinion too large since every ring seems to be as large as one finger....

GeWee

01-13-2005, 18:23

http://img64.exs.cx/img64/9853/1promii7vg.jpg

About the shield. It almost looks as if it's been folded in the middle. Is it possible to make the center line a little more 'rounded' maybe?

PROMETHEUS

01-13-2005, 18:35

I repost here this one couse the page changed , about your point on shield you are right I will probably fix it as I have more time.....

Ok here there are 4 version , in order

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/9646/versions9kj.jpg

version not rusty and with highlights

version not rusty less shiny

version rusty , more dark

version of CA

I think the third version looks more realistic...

remember that the mail trama of CA is on my opinion too large since every ring seems to be as large as one finger....

Spino

01-13-2005, 20:25

I think the first version, non-rust w/highlights, looks the best with CA's default textures a close second. The second non-rust textures look good but are too dark. The third rusty, darkened version is way too dark. When zoomed out the darker versions will invariably lose their mail pattern and look more like gray or black leather than mail. I think the details on the third one will simply disappear when viewed from anything beyond 25 yards or so.

AFAIK, chain mail wasn't really know for accumulating much rust or dirt because throughout the course of the day constant movement and friction would prevent rust and other particles from taking hold on the links. Furthermore and perhaps more importantly, no Centurion worth his salt would let his men allow their armor to become so dilapidated, rusted and filthy. These are professional soldiers, not dodgy mercenaries or disillusioned conscripts.

BTW, superb work Prometheus.

Kudos to the EB team on their mod. I'm not going anywhere near RTR but I'm definitely drooling in anticipation of EB's release.

Edit - Oops, my mistake. I just realized these are pre-Marian legionaries (Principes) and therefore not professional soldiers. However my assertion still stands, especially in light of the fact that pre-Marian legionaries bought and maintained their own equipment. I think it's safe to say that the act of letting an expensive suit of chain mail go to pot was only for the rich or apathetic.

Urnamma

01-13-2005, 20:42

Prom, I like the first one, but I have one small gripe. Could you blend it a little more, try to make those quite obvious lines go away?

I LOVE the new shields. They're perfect.

PROMETHEUS

01-13-2005, 21:15

http://img133.exs.cx/img133/3803/a1vm.jpg

Ok New triaria with shield and new mail...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-13-2005, 21:40

Nice!!

Just one detal missing: the helm is pointier (slightly more oval on top).

khelvan

01-13-2005, 21:45

Prometheus, those swords on the Triarii are just for show, right? Or have we solved the non-phalanx spear/sword bug?

PROMETHEUS

01-13-2005, 21:46

Yes show...

blz

01-13-2005, 22:38

very nice :)

PSYCHO V

01-14-2005, 02:07

http://img64.exs.cx/img64/9853/1promii7vg.jpg

new version slightly modified by Psicho V.... - Prom

Actually, that one is the original. Sorry probably confused you becasue I named the original II and the moded one I

This was the one I did no? (left) ..or did you add further highlights? http://img136.exs.cx/img136/9646/versions9kj.jpg

Anyway, the one on the left is the one I like. Though I wouldn't make the mail quite so long / low

my2bob

PSYCHO V

01-14-2005, 02:10

Beautiful Triarii !! great mail and shield

again I'd shorten the mail to about half of what it is currently below the belt.

PROMETHEUS

01-14-2005, 10:53

Actually, that one is the original. Sorry probably confused you becasue I named the original II and the moded one I

No i guess i don't have anymore ur version couse i used urs to increase and play around with saturations and similar stuff to add severall layers of enlighted parts onthe front sides....

Aslo about the longness of the mail shirts I have still to decide looking at the sculptures....

For the moment this makes reference...

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/triarii2.jpg

Catiline

01-14-2005, 11:10

Great work Prometheus.

However, seeing as we're beinmg historically accurate, down to the Augustan period the balteus, (the belt and apron combination) was NOT worn. Earlier legionaries (probably for these purposes any equipped with mail) used two crossed belts, one for dagger and one for gladius.

lorica hamata was pretty much self cleaning if worn regularly, so there shouldn't be any rust unless you're making undead hordes...

Dead Moroz

01-14-2005, 11:37

I like #4. CA's chain mail together with Prometheus' work is the best!

I don't think it should be rusty. Early Roman army consisted of well-to-do citizens. They didn't spent all their life in wars. War for them was "event". I'm sure they could allow themselves to preserve their armour well between wars and to clean it before campaign. Don't forget that in all times military uniform was something like fetish for humans. Every military man wants to looks as "pretty" as it possible in his uniform.

Their chain mails were relatively new. Because every chain mail is fitted for certain figure, so the armour of father could not be suited for his son and son had to buy his own new shiny chain mail.

Now, think about gameplay, guys. Most of time you'll look at battle from the bird's eye view or something quite distant from units line. I'm sure that dark chain mail with small rings will looks very strange and obscure.

Moreover this new chain mail doesn't even looks like chain mail. Imho. It looks something like warm fluffy sweater... At least like lamellar armour (that's why I think it looks Chinese).

FinnN

01-14-2005, 12:51

There's some great stuff going on here and I'm really looking forward to the results. I hope what follows is OK as this is my first post here! ~:cheers:

First of all the chainmail, I think the balance between light and dark is spot on in the first and last pictures of the 4. Chainmail would have been very lightly oiled to protect it from corrosion which would eventually occur even if the mail was constantly in use. This results in a gunmetal type colour (mid-dark metallic grey) with and surfaces exposed to rubbing being lighter. Sometimes you will see re-enactors with very bright (sometimes shiny, sometimes dull) chainmail, this is due to them using galvanised (or stainless in the case of the shiny stuff) wire to make the chainmail with, which is totally inaccurate. The thing I'm a bit uncomfortable with is the bands of pieces of chainmail in the left hand picture. As far as I can remember Roman and Celtic chainmail at least wasn't constructed in that way during the period but I could be wrong as I *think* have seen some a statue with similar patterns but I could be confused on that point. In any case it certainly wasn't the norm. I'll have a dig around and see if I can find any information. I do agree though that the CA has the links looking much too large and it looks like yet another different method of chainmail construction. Oh and chainmail can be quite easily tailored for different people as it's possible to add and remove sections. Several surviving examples have areas where this has occured. That said without the technology to mass-produce thin wire, not to mention the very labour intensive 'knitting' process, these were fantastically expensive items.

Another comment I have is on the Gallic and British troops. One of the main reasons that the Romans did so well is that they were extremely well equipped throughout their armies. Things like helmets (iron especially and also bronze) and chainmail were very high status items and would have only been owned by a small proportion of Celtic warriors. Personally I think it would be much better if they were removed from all the troops and given only to officer, standard bearer and general figures. I don't know much about the Helvetii but I think the same thing would apply to them - to my eyes that looks like a phalanx of kings. Oh and the knotwork Celtic pattern you have on one of the British units is early medieval.

Like I said I hope that doesn't come across as too negative, but I'm guessing that some suggestions are more useful than pages of me going - oo cool!

Have fun
Finn

PROMETHEUS

01-14-2005, 13:18

About the lines that the mail has this is an optical effect that mail suits make to distance is due to the weight and orientation of the small rings...http://www.larp.com/legioxx/jason.jpghttp://img136.exs.cx/img136/9646/versions9kj.jpg

Also comparing a real one with the second the second looks more close , the reflections will be made via gloss files and isn't that shiny the mail on the man in fulldaylight, while the roman samples are in a shadow of a hill...
Moroz
Chineese troops used very large squares of embossed leather for armours as seeableon the replicas of clay of Chinese soldiers in the tomb of the first emperor ...

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/EDSmail1th.jpg
here are
Samples of reproduction mail. Those at top were made by Erik D. Schmid. The finer one on the left can be considered very typical of Roman mail, with rings just under 7 mm in outside diameter. The riveted rings are made from round-section wire but have been slightly flattened. The sample at upper right was graciously donated by Arthur Hendrick. The punched rings are about 7/16" outer diameter and 5/16" inner diameter, and are about 1/16" thick. The riveted rings are made from iron wire of about 1 mm diameter.
Erik points out that the rings are too large to be typical, and their ends overlap right-over-left while all the Roman samples he has seen overlap left-over-right. We will still consider mail of this quality to be very acceptable for our purposes!

here an original one...
http://www.armatura.connectfree.co.uk/arma/mail2.jpg

FinnN

01-14-2005, 13:32

I've seen mail on numerous occasions both up close and at a distance (having been in a reenactment group years ago) and I haven't seen the sectional effect you have in your texture. Here's a link to the Ermine Street Guard (who are a reenactment group at the more historical end of the spectrum) website where you'll see numerous pictures of chainmail:

http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Images.htm

Allowing for the fact that some of their guys could probably lose a pound or two ;-) there's no evidence of a panelled effect at all. The picture you show shows more of a computer moire effect than anything else, the different colours coming from sections of chainmail polished to different degrees and then linked together - again no dark lines delineating horizontal sections.

I have seen pictures of mail with the sectional effect you have but not those made in the Western style.

Have fun
Finn

PROMETHEUS

01-14-2005, 13:46

Sorry may be you didn't saw well couse even in those pics there can be seen lines ... and those are from the site you posted....

http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Archive/images/auxil_jpg.jpg

http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Auxilia2/images/auxiliares%2020_JPG.jpg

http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Auxilia2/images/archer%2002_JPG.gif

frisian28ad

01-14-2005, 13:46

Is it possible to give the feathers from the helmet of the triarii another colour? Acording to Polybius they wear black feathers, it certainly would help to distinct the helmet decoration better.

greetings...

FinnN

01-14-2005, 14:35

To my eyes the pictures you've shown show exactly the difference I'm talking about. Here's one side-by-side with your skin:

http://www.warillustrated.com/misc/mailcompare.jpg

Notice how you have widely spaced dark bands which are missing from the above pics. The lines you see in the reenactors' pics above are from individual rows of links which form a sort of corrugated texture whereas yours seem to indicate something different. I only bring this up as there is another way of making armour which does result in exactly the banding you're drawing in.

Have fun
Finn

PROMETHEUS

01-14-2005, 15:24

I think the image of the units u posted for comparison is too big , tough placing the same texture on a 512 512 texture type would reduce the sensation of the lines and give a better look to the units ... will try to increase the size to have a high res version to use then to rescale to a 256 256 one....

Dux Corvanus

01-15-2005, 22:11

If someone is interested in making an important unit from August's twelve year Cantabrian wars in the north of Hispania, this is how Cantabrian warriors should look like. OK, it's not a Rembrandt, but not bad for a 3 minute picture. BTW, all clothes should be leather and bear fur, long hair was held in a tie in TOP of head, and large round shield was wooden. The motif I've chosen is a popular one in ancient Cantabrian stone estelles. BTW, Cantabrian light horse riding javelinmen -the ones who used Cantabrian circle- should look similar, but w/o shield.

http://premium1.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Cantabrian.jpg

khelvan

01-16-2005, 00:37

I am 99% positive that Aymar and the other Iberian fanatics have this covered in spades. However, I am sure the drawing will be good material for them to draw ideas about coloring and such, though I notice in our forums there are a ton of ideas about the Iberian units such as the Cantabrii already (Aymar went nuts!). :bow:

Just out of curiosity, from what do you draw your inspiration?

Dux Corvanus

01-16-2005, 01:12

Just out of curiosity, from what do you draw your inspiration?

Hairstyle was described by Strabo himself. Garments and weaponry are described by Titus Livius, as quoted by Orosian.

They used javelins, short swords and double axes. One Cantabrian warrior, Larus, was well-known by his skill with double axe. A leader, Corocotta, knowing the romans offered a reward for his capture, went to ask it himself.

We also have warrior depictings based on ancient stone round estelles that are found all over the territory. They marked the proximity of a Cantabrian castrum .

http://www.cantabriajoven.com/arte/fotos/estela_zurita.jpg

Sun symbol motifs of the shields could be inspired by these monuments:

http://www.cantabriajoven.com/corrales/fotos/estela2.jpg

http://www.cantabriajoven.com/arte/fotos/estela.jpg

http://www.cantabriajoven.com/arte/fotos/estela2.jpg

Byzantine Prince

01-16-2005, 02:57

Hey everyone, can you guys change the greek hoplite units? I hate how they all have the horsehair on their helmets. The real hoplites really rarely had horsehair on the helmets. Can you guys change the plain hoplites with this kind of helmet?http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~perlman/history/5war6.jpg

And also can you consider this cuirass? http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_1992.180.3a.jpg

Steppe Merc

01-16-2005, 03:02

No. That helm is totally out of date. No one would have used a Cornithean helm! And that cuirass looks more for show than battle.

khelvan

01-16-2005, 03:16

Well, the Greeks did use muscled bronze cuirasses, and of course the Corinthian helm, but this is at least a century outside of the time frame we're depicting, unfortunately.

I'll look into how long the muscled bronze cuirass was used, but I suspect it had all but disappeared en lieu of linen by our time frame.

Byzantine Prince

01-16-2005, 03:33

Dude I didn't say all of them whould have that kind of helmet. It's not really that out of date. My point was remove the horsehair, I don't care about the style being exactly the same as the picture. That was just an example. Ok here's a perfect example. Forget that one. Look:
http://www.royalathena.com/media/greekcataloguepics/CLG102B.jpg

Big_John

01-16-2005, 03:41

that suit is mid-4th century b.c. not drastically out-of-frame, right? maybe some early greek units could use something similar?

Byzantine Prince

01-16-2005, 03:51

The fact of the matter is you can't find a "real" helmet WITH Horse hair. I know it's on statues and poetry but it does not represent the true history.

Steppe Merc

01-16-2005, 04:16

Horse hair wouldn't survive, me thinks.

Big_John

01-16-2005, 04:24

well, how was the hair attached? b/c if there were some sort of boss to which the haired was tied or something, that should be visible on the helmets. if it was affixed with an adhesive or something, then maybe you wouldn't see it.. although, it's not unheard of for organic material (e.g. fabrics) to survive that long.

chemchok

01-16-2005, 05:22

Muscled curiasses will be in the mod, but they will be the exception rather than the norm.

Horsehair crests were not attached with adhesives. The actual methods used to attach them varied over time, but in most cases, some evidence of the system would survive - whether it's pin holes in the top of the helmet or a large raised platform.

Those responsible for creating the Greek unit list payed close attention to which units should and shouldn't have a crest.

Urnamma

01-16-2005, 05:28

Muscled cuirasses had all but disappeared on infantry by 270 B.C. They were still used by cavalry.

Attic style helmets (like the one you posted, but not the corinthian) were the norm as well.

Byzantine Prince

01-16-2005, 07:46

The thing is there already ARE Corinthian style helmets in the game. Armoured Hoplites have them. I don't reall care about that.

The thing I'm trying to change is the fact that they have horsehair. People always assume all greek soldier's had horse hair on the helmets when in fact almost none of them did, especially in the time period we are talking about.

khelvan

01-16-2005, 08:29

Byzantine Prince:

Those responsible for creating the Greek unit list payed close attention to which units should and shouldn't have a crest.Don't worry, we understand. In addition, what you say about the Corinthian helmets doesn't really matter, since we're completely redoing every single unit in the game, and tossing out 75% of them.

Byzantine Prince

01-16-2005, 17:04

Ok, kewl.... I would apreciate some screenshots of the greek units if it's not too much trouble.

Thanks.

khelvan

01-16-2005, 20:59

I believe this thread already has at least our redone Argyraspidai (silver shield pikemen). Though the Greeks haven't received as much attention as other factions at the moment.

PROMETHEUS

01-16-2005, 21:00

http://img132.exs.cx/img132/925/14bm.jpg

A little update on Caesar Legion , Since I got a new book on the subject the shield has been scaled to reach the exact dimension, also I added the detail of the link of the shoulder pads that also have been reshaped , still need to retouch the helmet and pattern ....

PROMETHEUS

01-16-2005, 21:58

http://img138.exs.cx/img138/5299/19mr.jpg

PROMETHEUS

01-16-2005, 22:46

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-17-2005, 00:21

I like the shield colour better in the last one.

Regarding the crest or mane, I thought that Caesarian Legions did not use one:

http://www.lastsquare.com/PrintCatalog/AeroartPix/004.gif

FinnN

01-17-2005, 00:31

Roman troops wore the crests on parade and during battles, you can see the attachments in your picture. They were put away at other times, presumably to keep them clean and intact.

Have fun
Finn

Kurtisb

01-17-2005, 00:32

http://img137.exs.cx/img137/9258/11re.jpg

Small variation on the intensity of the red hoping this could give more realism to the units so did it work? I also changed the colour of the crest to a black one did it work too?
Holy superb shots batman! (ehm, I mean PROMETHEUS) :bow:

Is this early post marian reforms, late post marian reforms? (Or is it still the levied legions?)

-Kurts

FinnN

01-17-2005, 00:37

Roman troops wore the crests on parade and during battles, you can see the attachments in your picture. They were put away at other times, presumably to keep them clean and intact.

Have fun
Finn

professorspatula

01-17-2005, 01:43

http://img137.exs.cx/img137/9258/11re.jpg

Small variation on the intensity of the red hoping this could give more realism to the units so did it work? I also changed the colour of the crest to a black one did it work too?

They are the best damn Romans I've seen. Brilliant! But you keep making so many minor changes I keep expecting them to end up turning out worse. I especially like the darker hues and tones of the units. Much less cartoony than the CA originals, more authentic looking and easier on the eyes (they don't blind you unlike the vanilla ones).

All the new units are looking fantastic by the way, the mod looks brilliant. And I think Prometheus is trying to get a job at CA with all his attention to detail. :P

The only minor concern about the mod is the reliance on those Osprey images for reference. You'd think they were photos from the era with the number of times they're used to justify the look and appearance of the units. I imagine it's difficult to get a large number of 'reliable' resources for reference though.

(And my apologies - my long name appears to have stretched the forum!)

PROMETHEUS

01-17-2005, 02:43

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/3361/10xk.jpg

Ok Guys here is a semifinal stage of the Caesarian legion , a big step foward from the first version , I advice you that this is inhigh resolution textures and it will be scaled down to the normal one for the game to not cause lag for smaller computers...

PSYCHO V

01-17-2005, 03:02

Looking good !

Parmenio

01-17-2005, 04:04

Looks good Prom. :)

Noticed that there appears to be a lighting glitch on the gladius scabbard, which may need a Reset Xform to fix the vertex ordering.

RedSilver

01-17-2005, 04:07

May I say,

Wow.....

(Wonder Opon Wonder)

MiniKiller

01-17-2005, 04:35

1 word....damn! ok that was 3...now wait...9...no 10...and damn i lost count! ~:cheers:

professorspatula

01-17-2005, 07:14

This sounds a bit trivial, but with all the work going into the Roman units, is there no possibility of the Roman general getting a face lift and possibly a helmet of some kind? Even in the vanilla RTW he looks like one of the stupidest generals. Hardly a mean or noble looking fellow.

Apfel

01-17-2005, 18:59

Well, to put it bluntly, using that symbol will make it illegal in Germany at least to play. I do not care to deal with the legal issues involved, do you?

Unless we can figure out a way to make sure that the texture is not reversed, and the ancient symbol does not get turned into a modern symbol of hate, it has no place in the mod, in my opinion.

That's not quite correct; swastikas are forbidden when used in connection with nazi parties/movements or actions that incite anti-democratic thoughts.

They MAY be shown when used for educational purposes, science reports or when used for other (honest/true) historical functions.

Let's face it; the swastika is NOT a nazi symbol, they just stole and used it for their own ideas and ideals.

I know Germans are sensitive when it comes to this topic but IMO it's not illegal to use it in a HISTORICAL modification based in a time where nazis did not even exist. The swastika is way older than the nazi regime which abused it.

German law text:

http://lawww.de/Library/stgb/86.htm
http://lawww.de/Library/stgb/86a.htm

PROMETHEUS

01-17-2005, 20:54

http://img135.exs.cx/img135/7437/19ac1.jpg

Here is the latest evolution ....

SwordsMaster

01-17-2005, 21:13

Like them a lot. They actually look like fighters and not like people dressed up like romans as in the original one. Can the shadows be a bit darker?

Kurtisb

01-17-2005, 21:30

One thing having to do with stats, they look like they are un/trained judging by their un-tidy formation, I think they should be highly_trained.

Just my 2 cents.

-Kurts

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-17-2005, 21:33

The mail is too dark, PROMETHEUS!! It should have a lot more contrast.

PROMETHEUS

01-17-2005, 22:04

No the Mail is the new one in game is the one that better gives the realism effect on the sun light and on shadows by close u can count the rings actually....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-18-2005, 00:28

No the Mail is the new one in game is the one that better gives the realism effect on the sun light and on shadows by close u can count the rings actually....Then show me a pic in sunlight.

PSYCHO V

01-18-2005, 01:08

Great Shields Prom ! ~:)

soibean

01-18-2005, 04:58

That's not quite correct; swastikas are forbidden when used in connection with nazi parties/movements or actions that incite anti-democratic thoughts.

They MAY be shown when used for educational purposes, science reports or when used for other (honest/true) historical functions.

Let's face it; the swastika is NOT a nazi symbol, they just stole and used it for their own ideas and ideals.

I know Germans are sensitive when it comes to this topic but IMO it's not illegal to use it in a HISTORICAL modification based in a time where nazis did not even exist. The swastika is way older than the nazi regime which abused it.

What was the original meaning behind the swastika?

eadingas

01-18-2005, 06:14

Solar symbol.

GeWee

01-18-2005, 08:14

I think you should add swastikas if they were common at the time. This is a historic mod after all.
So what if EB probably may get banned from Germany? It's not like every German who wants it isn't gonna download it anyway. Besides, while I don't know how rigid the laws in Germany, I doubt that the police there goes knocking on peoples' doors looking for banned mods for computer games.

masp_82

01-18-2005, 09:43

Yes, you can show the swastika here in Germany when you need it for educational purposes in documentarys etc. But computer games dont´t belong to this group of educational things, even if they are so historical as the EB mod.

But like GeWee said, our police has more important things to do as to look if someone has this mod on his computer.

The only problem i can think of is that maybe german gaming magazines are not allowed to put the mod on their magazines dvd for distribution. But thats not really a big thing, because most people will download the mod from the internet.

PROMETHEUS

01-18-2005, 14:06

http://img64.exs.cx/img64/984/10cp.jpg

What about this?

SaFe

01-18-2005, 14:26

http://img64.exs.cx/img64/984/10cp.jpg

What about this?

Veeeryyy nice Prom. :bow:
Great looking celts.
B.t.w. News on the chattii warband we talked about? ~;)

PROMETHEUS

01-18-2005, 15:35

No news still since I have s a lot of work befoure still....

now here is another version with a more realistic human skin and of course the other was too much a conan the barbarian like .....

http://img139.exs.cx/img139/5316/19io.jpg

frisian28ad

01-18-2005, 16:18

amzing the detail on the helmet, the body is indeed much more realistic, it needs some work though (arms)

Greetings

Byzantine Prince

01-18-2005, 18:14

Where can I download any of these skins? TW Center doesn't have of them :help: .

Urnamma

01-18-2005, 18:43

http://img135.exs.cx/img135/7437/19ac1.jpg

Here is the latest evolution ....

Prom, the mail in this pic looks like rough leather. You need to give it a metallic feel. After that, this unit is perfected and done.

Urnamma

01-18-2005, 18:49

Where can I download any of these skins? TW Center doesn't have of them :help: .

None of them will be available until we have release the mod.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-18-2005, 19:04

PROMETHEUS!!! I want to see the Legion in sunshine!!! Post a pic to check the contrast of the mail.

Zanderpants

01-18-2005, 20:12

PROMETHEUS

01-19-2005, 01:13

Ok guys here are both the legions , now I only need to do the Augustean one ....the second type is the Imperial segmentata legion based on a previous model made by Agrippa I made some important variations and severall changes and additions ..... as well as I completely redraw at free hand the textures making them more close to an original one....same thing goes for the shield pattern.....

http://img135.exs.cx/img135/7437/19ac1.jpg

http://img139.exs.cx/img139/4273/17lw.jpg

SwordsMaster

01-19-2005, 02:31

I still think that the standard bearer´s face is really disturbing....

Gangstaman590

01-19-2005, 02:52

Wow is all I can say. That armor on the romans is amazing and their helmets look great. This mod is really turning out to be amazing. One thing though is that I'd like to see more units for the germans and some greek ones.

Well, maybe wow isn't all I can say. ~D

Alexander the Pretty Good

01-19-2005, 04:45

Jeez, I stopped checking this thread for like four days and all these beautiful screens... this just made my week.

Thanks! ~:cheers:

Byzantine Prince

01-19-2005, 05:06

Well what I've noticed is that the swords are a little dirty on one side. You might want to fix that.

Other then that, great, great work on the whole armor.

Dead Moroz

01-19-2005, 09:48

http://img139.exs.cx/img139/5316/19io.jpg
Man, you must return original body to these warriors. The new skin looks unrealistic in fact. It's too blurry. Muscles are too uncultivated. Nipples are too red. Gauls looks like band of queers now.

Prom, you made this skin according to average modern stature of men. But ancient people had much better muscles, 'coz they used to do a lot more physical work than we do. And don't forget that these guys on picture are warriors, they train their body, they just must have good muscles.

eadingas

01-19-2005, 10:09

Their nipples are red because they're cold :) Going about all shirtless and all :)

PROMETHEUS

01-19-2005, 11:27

Prom, you made this skin according to average modern stature of men. But ancient people had much better muscles, 'coz they used to do a lot more physical work than we do. And don't forget that these guys on picture are warriors, they train their body, they just must have good muscles.

Lol no , you watched too many conan the barbarian like movies , instead if you look at all the primitive African or Borneo or Australian or South American tribes , even the tribes that are costantly at war do not have the presence of conan people , the only ones probably at the time were the gladiators that pumped up their muscles on purpouses with machines , infact the main bench to raise weights even has a "roman" adjective... the skins are stll in work but they are thousand times more realistic than a uber muscled barbarian of the fictions of holliwood.....

SwordsMaster

01-19-2005, 12:08

I think you should include a big fat belly. After al, beer is beer....

Dead Moroz

01-19-2005, 12:23

I think you should include a big fat belly. After al, beer is beer....
And name 'em all Obelix. "Obelix Warband".

Dead Moroz

01-19-2005, 12:35

Lol no , you watched too many conan the barbarian like movies , instead if you look at all the primitive African or Borneo or Australian or South American tribes , even the tribes that are costantly at war do not have the presence of conan people , the only ones probably at the time were the gladiators that pumped up their muscles on purpouses with machines , infact the main bench to raise weights even has a "roman" adjective... the skins are stll in work but they are thousand times more realistic than a uber muscled barbarian of the fictions of holliwood.....
Yes, modern primitive tribes are not that Conans from movie. But they are neither that sickly homosexuals like on your pic.

When people do hard physical work every day they just cannot have uncultivated muscles. Don't copy new skin from office workers. Look at soldiers, builders, farmers, etc. - they all are sturdy guys. Many of them are not "conans", but they have good relief muscles.

SwordsMaster

01-19-2005, 12:37

And name 'em all Obelix. "Obelix Warband".

hey.... You might be on a good idea here... ~D

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-19-2005, 15:11

Kurtisb

01-19-2005, 15:48

WHEN WILL YOU POST A PIC OF THE LEGION IN SUNSHINE? IT'S THE 3RD TIME I ASK YOU TO DO IT AND I WILL NOT ASK IT AGAIN!!![/COLOR] ~:pissed:
:help: He's gonna blow! :help: LOL

Stefan the Berserker

01-19-2005, 15:50

Lol no , you watched too many conan the barbarian like movies , instead if you look at all the primitive African or Borneo or Australian or South American tribes , even the tribes that are costantly at war do not have the presence of conan people , the only ones probably at the time were the gladiators that pumped up their muscles on purpouses with machines , infact the main bench to raise weights even has a "roman" adjective... the skins are stll in work but they are thousand times more realistic than a uber muscled barbarian of the fictions of holliwood.....

African Tribes can't be compared with Celts or Germans, they don't have the typical Wargames the northern Europeans had and additionally they don't eat as much Meat as they did. They should have a Sixpack and well trained Arms, not a Conan-Body nor average.

Dux Corvanus

01-19-2005, 15:56

Are you trying to make "Barbarians" look gay?!! They look ridiculous!!!

WHEN WILL YOU POST A PIC OF THE LEGION IN SUNSHINE? IT'S THE 3RD TIME I ASK YOU TO DO IT AND I WILL NOT ASK IT AGAIN!!! ~:pissed:

1) He's trying them to look actual human beings and not Hulk clones. Celtic warriors were supposed to be big and strong, not to be fitness culturists. They shaved their bodies to make hard to be grabbed in a fight, not to show muscles.

2) Chain mails were not made of stainless steel nor polished silver. They were made of iron, and iron gets really dark very fast by contact with air. Now they are realistic. It's more: lorica segmentata -that was used only for two centuries and a half and got again disused fron 3rd century onwards in favour of chain mails again, because of its difficult maintenance- should be less shiny than it is in the pics.

3) It's the 3rd time you unpolitely ask something, and you won't ask again? That's good news. You see: unless you're his boss or his mother, you can't give orders to a guy that's just sharing his talents for free, lad. You can't simulate slavery outside the game.

Big_John

01-19-2005, 15:58

But they are neither that sickly homosexuals like on your pic.

Are you trying to make "Barbarians" look gay?!!wow.. um.. Rome: Total Bigotry? ~:confused:

anyway, i think the new physique looks much more realistic. they could be more muscular, true, but it's a huge improvement over the cartoonish CA skin.

eadingas

01-19-2005, 16:08

I was just going wondering about that... what with all the gay accusations? Especially for this period.. Theban Band were gay men, and nobody would accuse them of not looking like good warriors.. and I won't even mention Alexander..

Dux Corvanus

01-19-2005, 16:44

Besides, it's precisely gay guys who spend all the day in the gym building up balloonish muscles.

BTW, if you're so fond of watching muscled macho men, who's the gay? ~D

Dux Corvanus

01-19-2005, 16:47

One thing, more: Prometheus, son't make gaesatae! They'll whine about the size of their ***cks. And North-western Europe can be cold in winter... ~D

Dead Moroz

01-19-2005, 16:50

You see: unless you're his boss or his mother, you can't give orders to a guy that's just sharing his talents for free, lad.
Actually Aymar is Prom's boss in this project.

You can't simulate slavery outside the game.
Don't provoke us, dude. :devil:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-19-2005, 16:57

1) He's trying them to look actual human beings and not Hulk clones. Celtic warriors were supposed to be big and strong, not to be fitness culturists. They shaved their bodies to make hard to be grabbed in a fight, not to show muscles.No, you're mistaken. It was a matter of Celtic higiene.

2) Chain mails were not made of stainless steel nor polished silver. They were made of iron, and iron gets really dark very fast by contact with air. Now they are realistic. It's more: lorica segmentata -that was used only for two centuries and a half and got again disused fron 3rd century onwards in favour of chain mails again, because of its difficult maintenance- should be less shiny than it is in the pics.No. Mail was made of iron, yes. But the friction that mail rings sustain, makes it far more shinny than you're implying.

3) It's the 3rd time you unpolitely ask something, and you won't ask again? That's good news. You see: unless you're his boss or his mother, you can't give orders to a guy that's just sharing his talents for free, lad. You can't simulate slavery outside the game.Please restrain from ignorant posts, because you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Dead Moroz

01-19-2005, 16:57

wow.. um.. Rome: Total Bigotry? ~:confused:

anyway, i think the new physique looks much more realistic. they could be more muscular, true, but it's a huge improvement over the cartoonish CA skin.
It's not bigotry, it's common sense! Maybe CA's barbarian looks like cartoonish conans (personally I don't think so). But new Prom's Gauls looks like cartoonish gays. He just went from one extreme to another... And that nipples are really too red. :biker:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-19-2005, 17:00

anyway, i think the new physique looks much more realistic. they could be more muscular, true, but it's a huge improvement over the cartoonish CA skin.Too bad that the original skin he posted of the muscular guy, is from PSYCHO, not from CA.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-19-2005, 17:04

Besides, it's precisely gay guys who spend all the day in the gym building up balloonish muscles.

BTW, if you're so fond of watching muscled macho men, who's the gay? ~DSince ignorance is you way of life, I shouldn't even bother replying, but I feel like I have to.

Celts were trained from birth to be warriors and they thrained extensivelly to be the best individual warriors possible. They were phisically much larger (because of genetics) and stulkier than Roman/Greeks and therefore the unit must reflect that.

Too bad you have no idea of what we're talking about: Historical reality...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-19-2005, 17:07

One thing, more: Prometheus, son't make gaesatae! They'll whine about the size of their ***cks. And North-western Europe can be cold in winter... ~DNo. In fact, I believe you're the only one that thought of that!!... ...for obvious reasons... :biker:

GeWee

01-19-2005, 17:12

The new skin is much more realistic. The shoulders could be broader though.
The muscles should definately not be as developed as in the first model. It just looks stupid to have a sixpack where every "pack" is about the same size as a biceps muscle...
Besides, I very much doubt that ancient barbarian soldiers was very much into doing crunches and the like. They probably practiced weapon skills more than they did physical excercises. Not even the professional soldiers like the Romans should have that little fat on their bodies, for the same reasons I stated in a previous post in this thread (half-naked barbarian with 4% body-fat standing in snow = hypothermia).

aw89

01-19-2005, 17:16

Just one question: Didn't they use clothes in battles? (the celts)

PROMETHEUS

01-19-2005, 17:20

Actually Aymar is Prom's boss in this project.

Atually this is a modding community not a few person's work, I am not hired by anyone and instead I am modding here for free decision as all of us , so there is no a Boss just coordinators , I don't take Orders by Aymar or anyone , I cooperate with others , there is not one or two minds that accept and decide on what is good and what is not good , there are votations and proposals....If the thing is not as I tought it was then please tell me that I will resign from the community couse I don't stand autorities of any kinds....

Then is time to say that the skin is a work in progress so I don't understand all this discussion about the muscled guys ... Moroz is right that as are now the guys look less "trained" but I think he didn't want to mean something like the gladiators or conan but just more defined , wich is ok , the actual texture is very defined in the photoshop , but the game for some reason keeps to blurry it so I will have to increase the contrast level for it....

the Gauls also where not bulkier or more muscled than romans , just more tall since the everyday training of a legionary was really really heavy task...and are really used to fatigue and sustained work , while the gauls on the other hand while where very skilled individual warriors where less used to continual training and fatigue , that is why they routed more easily on the long continuated fights , just becouse they where less used to and tired faster....

The germans where even taller than the gauls and probably since they aborred every luxury , wich instead the gauls liked a lot , probably couold have more "marked" or "signed" bodies in the sence of training warfare and definition , they where described as terrific in aspect that even made fear the legionaries and the gauls , so their aspect should be very worked on....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-19-2005, 17:23

Besides, I very much doubt that ancient barbarian soldiers was very much into doing crunches and the like. They probably practiced weapon skills more than they did physical excercises. The muscular tonus of people of that era cannot be compared to the muscular tonus of people today. We spent everyday in a desk!!! Even farmers today use machines!!! In those days they used their hands. And they spent everyday in outdoor activities like hunting, farming, war trainning, etc...

The most fit persons today (except bodybuilders) are what they should look like...

Not even the professional soldiers like the Romans should have that little fat on their bodies, for the same reasons I stated in a previous post in this thread (half-naked barbarian with 4% body-fat standing in snow = hypothermia)They used warm clothes and wool covers before they started the battle. They were only naked while fighting. Not while travelling and organizing the formations before battle.

Besides, only some of them fought bare-chested. By 270BC, most fought clothed.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-19-2005, 17:33

the Gauls also where not bulkier or more muscled than romans , just more tall since the everyday training of a legionary was really really heavy task...and are really used to fatigue and sustained work , while the gauls on the other hand while where very skilled individual warriors where less used to continual training and fatigue , that is why they routed more easily on the long continuated fights , just becouse they where less used to and tired faster....

The germans where even taller than the gauls and probably since they aborred every luxury , wich instead the gauls liked a lot , probably couold have more "marked" or "signed" bodies in the sence of training warfare and definition , they where described as terrific in aspect that even made fear the legionaries and the gauls , so their aspect should be very worked on....Why don't you ask that to Ranika and PSYCHO? They will explain it to you better than me. After all they are the Historical experts in the Celtic (Britons and Gauls) Group.

GeWee

01-19-2005, 17:41

The most fit persons today (except bodybuilders) are what they should look like...

And that would be what? Gymnasts?
I dunno.. I have a hard time imagining a barbarian soldier spending that much time doing excercises that didn't involve weapons.

I think they looked more or less like present-day soldiers. Some more fit than others... But to have an entire warband consisting of people that have bulkier muscles than Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime is just wrong.

Big_John

01-19-2005, 17:44

Too bad that the original skin he posted of the muscular guy, is from PSYCHO, not from CA.yeah, and it's a huge improvement over that one too.
gj PROM, keep up the great work.
:cheers:

PROMETHEUS

01-19-2005, 17:46

They used warm clothes and wool covers before they started the battle. They were only naked while fighting. Not while travelling and organizing the formations before battle.
True...

Besides, only some of them fought bare-chested. By 270BC, most fought clothed.

Germans not but always many fought still barechested as many gauls , but since the gaul campaigns had even winter battles , most probably they wouldn't fight at all barechested in winter , as well as the romans weared full throusers in that time with black leather stribes around theyr legs to protect from cold....

Why don't you ask that to Ranika and PSYCHO? They will explain it to you better than me. After all they are the Historical experts in the Celtic (Britons and Gauls) Group.

Becouse I know history as well ... may be not with the same deepness on gauls as I know the romans but the physical attributes are well depicted on statues and reproductions of the period and none was a conan like man , while instead when you look at the gladiator's paintings you will see that those guys really look like conan and the like , really impressive.....

Too bad that the original skin he posted of the muscular guy, is from PSYCHO, not from CA.

And the original texture is by me from the Gladiator one , and is not even very good....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-19-2005, 18:02

Becouse I know history as well ... may be not with the same deepness on gauls as I know the romans but the physical attributes are well depicted on statues and reproductions of the period and none was a conan like manBut they were bigger and larger than Romans.

while instead when you look at the gladiator's paintings you will see that those guys really look like conan and the like , really impressive...Because they ONLY trained for the arena. Nothing else. And most of them weren't from the Italian peninsula.

And the original texture is by me from the Gladiator one , and is not even very good....Better than CA's...

I WANT TO SEE THE ROMAN EARLY LEGION ON SUNSHINE!!!

eadingas

01-19-2005, 18:15

Thought about muscles and workout:
Muscles - protruding, visible muscles - don't come from physical effort. You could be throwing bags of stones all your life, and not get muscular. Muscular figure comes from particular fitness training. There are machines and equipment that help you build your muscles, why do you think is that? If it were that easy, then it'd be enough to just do a sport, or lift weights.
Look at weightlifters. They are strong and fit, but are they really that muscular?
GeWee is right comparing warriors to soldiers: soldiers certainly don't spend all day at the desk, and yet they don't look like bodybuilders. Pre-industrial farmers - not muscular at all, despite all their hard work. Miners, luggage carriers, policemen - all these people train or work to be strong and fit, but not to have nice, round, shiny muscles.

Dux Corvanus

01-19-2005, 19:10

No, you're mistaken. It was a matter of Celtic higiene.

Yes, I think you may be true.

No. Mail was made of iron, yes. But the friction that mail rings sustain, makes it far more shinny than you're implying.

And since that friction was mainly below arm and axilla, and in the inner part of mail the darker sides should be precisely the more visible.

Celts were trained from birth to be warriors and they thrained extensivelly to be the best individual warriors possible..

Yeah, unlike Spartans, Sarmatians or Sacred Band Carthaginians... :dizzy2:

They were phisically much larger (because of genetics) and stulkier than Roman/Greeks and therefore the unit must reflect that.

Larger, yes. Stulkier, not. Same exercises and good feeding make same muscles independently of size body, and war exercises don't make the same bound-to-spectacular-volume-instead-of-tone muscle aspect than fitness.

Too bad you have no idea of what we're talking about: Historical reality...

Too bad for you I have a degree in Ancient History. Where have you learnt all that self-boasting jerk? Osprey Press? Marvel comics? Ridley Scott's 'Historical reality' movies?

Since ignorance is you way of life, I shouldn't even bother replying, but I feel like I have to. (...) Please restrain from ignorant posts, because you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Since rudeness and brating is your way of life, I'll restrain from YOUR ignorant posts, just because I have an idea of what I'm talking about. I'm talking about making your childish mamma's-boy requests to Prometheus thru private messaging instead of venting your idle claims for all to see, and I'm talking about politeness and mature behavior instead of whining about every little thing you know or imagine this mod should be.

Good bye, Aymar-the-kid-with-a-pedant-nick. I don't need to read your posts to enjoy the mod, so I'm leaving the forum.

Have a nice day a balloon to play with.

:balloon2:

khelvan

01-19-2005, 19:31

Alright, if you guys can't talk civilly here (and you know who I am talking to) I may have to lock this. No one wants that.

Also, let's please refrain from all the gay-bashing? I don't particularly want to read it.

Thanks.

eadingas

01-19-2005, 19:55

Hear, hear.
We may some day have to release a new mod: RTW MODDING: TOTAL WAR :)

AmbrosiusAurelianus

01-19-2005, 20:00

Prometheus, in spite of all the comments you've had thrown at you, I'd like to say that your Celtic swordsmen look fantastic. That's the best looking Celtic shield design I've seen yet, well done. Did you use the Battersea one as a model? If so you'll probably be aware that it was probably more for show than for actual use, but who cares it's only a game?
I like the helmets but the cheek guards are a little bright. The skins also look fine to me. The only slight problem seems to be that the arms and chest textures look slightly off in terms of contrast. I mean that one looks darker than the other. Otherwise very good. ~:)

Aymar de Bois Mauri

01-19-2005, 20:10

And since that friction was mainly below arm and axilla, and in the inner part of mail the darker sides should be precisely the more visible.Ring friction occurs in all the mail. Not specifically "below arm and axilla".

Yeah, unlike Spartans, Sarmatians or Sacred Band Carthaginians... :dizzy2:

Larger, yes. Stulkier, not. Same exercises and good feeding make same muscles independently of size body, and war exercises don't make the same bound-to-spectacular-volume-instead-of-tone muscle aspect than fitness.But "non-barbarian" fight dressed. You can't see their muscles.

Too bad for you I have a degree in Ancient History.In the internet EVERYBODY has degrees in EVERYTHING... :rolleyes:

Where have you learnt all that self-boasting jerk? Osprey Press? Marvel comics? Ridley Scott's 'Historical reality' movies?I actually read Historical sources. It seems you don't...

Since rudeness and brating is your way of life, I'll restrain from YOUR ignorant posts, just because I have an idea of what I'm talking about. You have an idea? Sure. A very blurred and foggy idea of something...

I'm talking about making your childish mamma's-boy requests to Prometheus thru private messaging instead of venting your idle claims for all to see, and I'm talking about politeness and mature behavior instead of whining about every little thing you know or imagine this mod should be. PROMETHEUS doesn't reply to PMs or mails, you jerk! That is why I have to use other methods like posting in this thread.

This was what I was refering when I said "...you have no idea of what you're talking about."

As for politeness, neither you or PROM have anything to teach me about it...

Good bye, Aymar-the-kid-with-a-pedant-nick. I don't need to read your posts to enjoy the mod, so I'm leaving the forum.Good. I'm glad that you have enough IQ (although surelly less than the regular chimp) to understand that your ludicrous comments are not welcomed here.

Have a nice day a balloon to play with.

:balloon2:Thanks, but I wouldn't want to play with your toys... ~:wave:

Zanderpants

01-19-2005, 20:18

Aymar: Don't reply. It's not worth it.
(I don't have a degree. Yet. ~D)

Dux Corvanus: Have you looked in any of the other threads? Aymar is not PROMETHEUS' boss, but he is organizing everything and trying to keep things on schedule. He asked twice before this, and he was not being rude to PROMETHEUS. "Then show me a pic in sunlight." was his first request. Not rude. Prom never replied. Why is this? When I first started looking around on this forum, it seemed like these guys are nitpicking, but they're doing that for a good reason. They're trying to get the best historical representation they can. Oh, and guess what? Aymar has been one of the LEAST critical in the last four pages of this thread. I don't know where Aymar comes from, but his English is pretty darn good, but something to remember, oh mighty history lord (I'm so glad you showed up, because nobody in our mod knows anything about history. I don't know how we managed without you!), is that English is not the first language of many of the people working here, so things get confused sometimes.

Please leave for real. I dunno where you came from, but please just go away. There's enough friction without you.

The Wizard

01-19-2005, 20:30

I think it's time for me to propose the famous Dutch 'poldermodel'...

You see, while I think Prom's model looks bloody amazing (where did that shield motive come from? I've never seen such a Celtic shield before...), I also think the men in the formation looks like they got a steroid supplement from their chieftain. ~;p

Still, I doubt that the Celts looked so... well, terribly out of shape. I myself, if I was a modeller with the skill of Prometheus (yeah right ^^), would've made them look like men somewhere half between Arnie and what they are now according to the screenshot on the last pic. Not super-super buff, but not like the skin that Prom has provided.

You see, if you ask me, Celts wouldn't have had a really pronounced six-pack and biceps etc... still, they had a better disposition to develop muscles than the smaller, less impressive Romans. Still, in perfect shape they would have looked pretty buff, in the way that it is seen as attractive nowadays... not Chippendale/Arnie, but not weak nerd either.

~Wiz

Vercingetorix

01-19-2005, 20:38

I agree more muscle definition. Hell even I have a 6-pack, how much more a soldier or sturdy farmer? Guys I know that worked in construction over the summer would get pretty buff, I'm sure working all day in the fields or training would produce similar results. CA's maybe were a bit exaggerated but not 'conan'.

This is conan:

http://www.victoryvillage.com/Arnold/conan_the_barbarian.jpg

This Is not:

http://img145.exs.cx/img145/3671/belgae5ic.jpg

Ranika

01-19-2005, 20:50

I agree with Vercingetorix on muscle definition. As for the shield; it's a peculiar shaped one, with a bronze face plate, and wood back. It's not necessarily ceremonial, Celtic arms and armor weren't always practical, they used a number of things because they looked impressive or frightening, so it could be proper for a unit. Just not a shirtless one. A unit using one would have to be either aristocracy, or a champion who was provided one my his king or chieftan. The type of a shield is a Briton design; not appropriate on Gauls or Belgae, but wouldn't be too bad, theoretically, for an 'elite' Briton unit, or Briton generals (for an elite unit, I'd use the same shape, but with a bronze, decorate boss on the shield, not a full bronze plate).

Celtic warriors worked out a great deal. They played a lot of very rough games, they trained a lot, boxed, wrestled, amid other things, to increase their physicality, all in addition to working on farms, or in a smith, or a mill, etc. They wouldn't be 'Arnold' buff, but they would have definitely had defined muscles; not necessarily bulging out (with some exceptions, like Gaesatae, who did pretty much nothing but work out and fight), but you would able to see them, I'm sure.