Interactive History V: The Duel of the Sea

[Uesugi Kenshin]

1) A, she'll be well-armed and should work well if we have an opportunity to spread disinformation. Can we also try to get our hands on some excellent english speakers for the crew so she'll be of even more use? Just a few officers should be enough if the crew is very well-trained. Also is there any other way that we could give the Destroyer greater than usual combat capabilities (especially at close range)?

2) A, send them out and have a case of schnapps waiting for them when they get back. The risk isn't too great and if they don't find anything they'll still see that we appreciate their dedicated and vital service.

3) B, give them their guns, tell them they'll keep the bogeymen away and hope that if they end up having to use them they work well. We can't afford to do anything else.

4) I'm thinking of a mix between B and C. Unfortunately the Irish revolt has already taken place and been stomped iirc, so I don't think we'll be able to play on that fear anymore, but I'm sure we'll find something to keep the Tommies peeking under their beds. We should definately focus on clearing the British force blockading us, if we go on the defensive we will make the same mistake that the Germans made in reality and allow our fleet to become demoralized and directionless yet again.

[DemonArchangel]

Ok, NO 77mm guns. If 20mm guns fail, I can't even imagine what a 77mm flak gun is going to do. And recoil doesn't increase linearly with size, it increases exponentially. Any firing of that thing on a zepplin would rip it out of its cupola mounting in a heartbeat.

[discovery1]

1) A arm the destroyer. Imagine the panic it would cause among the British fleet.....

2) Let them go. They think they can do it.

3) Hmmm. Surely you can do a ground test on a mockup zep? That would tell us if its safe. If it is, go for it. We could get lucky and take out the carriers aircraft while they are still on deck, maybe.....

4) Some combo of B and C would be nice. Convoy raids could spread them out, and then we strike at the key point.

[Lord Winter]

1) b we need to be creative in the battle as kraxis says this would make an excellent decoy, What if we loaded it up with explosives of some kind let them sail towards us and then blow it up somehow (zeppelin maybe?). So its not worth the waste in guns.

2) let them go, same arguments.

3) not really sure about this one will comment latter

4) b We should get them really annoyed with us by convoy raiding, landing forces on the beach could deal a blow to British morale. (nothing huge probably just a raid. Then by that time they should be howling for our blood, so it shouldn't be a problem to lure them in big numbers at a location of our choosing. If you want to win a battle you have to have the initiative and that means choosing the time and place to fight.

[Ludens]

We have lost the blight! How did this happen?

I think the strategic question is most important and all the other question should be taken with regards to that one, so I am going to answer it first. The British haven't sailed towards our harbours, so I don't think they have the guts or the ability required for offensive action. I also expect the British to be reinforced by the repaired ships and the aircraft carrier (I assume the strange ship is the HMS Furious, based on Kagemusha's comment). If we just wait until the British do something, the war will be lost on land anyway. That rules out A. Option B may lead the British to spread their forces, but again I think time is not on our side. Still, it might be a good idea to launch a few annoying attacks against targets of opportunity before launching a large attack. Option C is comes with the most risk and the most gain. Because time is running out, I vote this one, but not until we have done some proper reconnaissance.

4C: But do not rule out some special ops attacks as well.
1B: I want to have a solid plan about how to use the destroyer before I spend valuable guns to an unimportant ship.
2A: Why are so many people against it? If we want to go on the offense we have to know what is waiting for us. The zepeliners can be expected to know their jobs and they think it is possible. Even if we lose them, we may get to know the British better.
3A: putting a 77mm gun on a zepelin sounds like a recipe for disaster. If something lighter was available I'd say yes, but this is too much. Remember that it is mainly meant against British zeps: no matter how many guns we add we can never expect to drive off fighter planes.

[Flavius Clemens]

1)
A: Arm the British destroyer with the guns of Augsburg. She will be very hevily armed.
Ideal for getting to places the rest of our forces can't, for recon or special ops.

2) Scouting Scapa Flow
B: Keep them back. It is too risky for little to no gain. Their loss could be costly.
A was tempting, but I don't think it's worth the risk at this stage. Maybe in the near future.

3) Arming the zeppeliners
Sounds risky, so fit one for testing - preferably done whilst tethered at base rather than flying, so there isn't a full crew on board if it is a disaster. If it does look safe then roll out to some others, as we need to keep an edge over the British airships.

4) Strategy. This impacts the options of the next few chapters.

We can't risk any major operations anywhere else while there are 11 high quality battleships on our own doorstep - even if we get past them on the way out we won't make it back easily. On the other hand all they need to do to win is keep us bottled up, so one way or another we have to bring them to battle. However, convoy raiding or luring them into an attack on us on our terms (maybe let them think the Kaiser's back at sea!) could be a means to that end - so my vote is C, but tactically open to some of the ideas in a and b to achieve the decisive battle.

Don't forget to comment on the ships the Kaiser has offered to help you with.

I stand by my earlier thoughts - concentrate on getting another battlecruiser.

[Flavius Clemens]

A further thought. If the British airships are being more aggressive and better armed, can we use some influence to get an air sweep against them? Even if they're too far from land for fighters to reach, our Gotha and Giant bombers should have the range to reach them, and being smaller and more maneouverable than the airships, and well armed, I think they could perform well.

[Lord Winter]

I think we should aim at landing some special ops forces in britten, could you imagine the impact on morale that would have?

[Ludens]

I think we should aim at landing some special ops forces in britten, could you imagine the impact on morale that would have?
But how would that helps us sever the channel-link? We have limited time and limited resources to overcome Royal Navy so we have to keep our objectives in sight.

Incidentally, I have changed my mind about the 77mm. If it is possible to do a test with an old blimp in (relatively) safe conditions, I am prepared to take the risk. But I want a proof of principle before employing it in combat situations.

[AggonyDuck]

1)
A: Arm the British destroyer with the guns of Augsburg. She will be very hevily armed.

She will be very useful for us later on. :2thumbsup:

2) Scouting Scapa Flow
A. Lets go with A and hope that they get lucky.
Although it might be smarter to check out what the English are currently doing around the Heligoland Bight.

3) Arming the zeppeliners
B: This might very well be the edge the zeppeliners need to be brave again. It might even scare fighters away.

Although as stated it should be tested with some kind of mock-up zeppelin.

4) Strategy.
B: Special operations. Convoy hunting, portstrikes, short sallies, perhaps even landing some special formations of infantry on the British coast.
C: Offensive. Actively seek out the British forces with strong forces. Retake the Bight for operations in the near future.

A combination of B and C might be worthwhile. Especially the refitted destroyer might come in handy for special operations. A possible operation might be to use the destroyer to sneak in to the Firth of Forth and blow up the Forth Rail Bridge. If we're lucky the destruction of the bridge might end up blocking the access to the Rosyth dockyards and might allow us to decrease the amount of available drydocks for the Brits. But any success at this would require great luck, stealth and surprise.

Also we need to start being offensive soon. I'll remind you that if the Brits are doing a close blockade at the moment, then we're in for a treat. It means that the British have to keep cycling their heavy forces around the Bight to keep refuel them. Although I doubt that they've started a close blockade.
Anyways we have about a week left to launch our offensive operations, so we should brainstorm a bit now.

[Kraxis]

Guys, option 4 is a more general direction, not a choice per se. It is meant to be a direction of options.
B means I will give you a range of special operations to chose from, C means offensive actions of various kinds.

[AggonyDuck]

Hmmmmm, okay. Then I'd say that we should go for C, although I'd love to mix in some of B.

[Lord Winter]

But how would that helps us sever the channel-link? We have limited time and limited resources to overcome Royal Navy so we have to keep our objectives in sight.
The main effect of that would be morale and not a military objective. Mainly effecting the credibility and reputation of admiral, (much in the same way as if when we had when taking the Kaiser into battle. It may also make them reckless.

[Ludens]

The main effect of that would be morale and not a military objective. Mainly effecting the credibility and reputation of admiral, (much in the same way as if when we had when taking the Kaiser into battle. It may also make them reckless.
Sorry, I overlooked your earlier post. I was trying to make the point that we should keep focused on the main objective, which is to sever the link between England and France, and not get side-tracked with individual actions. Your plan has merrit, but once we have infuriated the British and they are out to get us, what are we going to do?

[Lord Winter]

Sorry, I overlooked your earlier post. I was trying to make the point that we should keep focused on the main objective, which is to sever the link between England and France, and not get side-tracked with individual actions. Your plan has merrit, but once we have infuriated the British and they are out to get us, what are we going to do?
No offence taken,
As for what to do after i think it we should aim at drawing them into an ambush, ethier by our captured destroyer or by feigned retreat, this may be were we could use the old fleet to split there forces. As for the ambush we could have better recon. We could always use mine feilds and sunken ships to control there movement somewhat.

[discovery1]

No offence taken,
As for what to do after i think it we should aim at drawing them into an ambush, ethier by our captured destroyer or by feigned retreat, this may be were we could use the old fleet to split there forces. As for the ambush we could have better recon. We could always use mine feilds and sunken ships to control there movement somewhat.

Sunken ships? Won't the water have to be fairly shallow already for that to work? And if the water is shallow isn't there some water to shallow for our ships very close?

[Lord Winter]

I pulled out that idea from this post:


So are these the conclusions:

- get the main fleet ready within the next days
- let the Zeps rest until then
- let us make a plan for a strategic strike with our complete fleet
- then start the operation with Zep recon
- Then strike with the whole fleet, tactical elements of our plan could be Zep recon, razzle-dazzle with our old ship fleet, the captured destroyer, sink own ships to block ports, ... and the raiders?

Kraxis, now that the Kaiser is our 'brother in arms' we could ask for more Zeps. Additionally the subs could do some recon for us. I know they are occupied, but recon for a week or two would not distract them too much from their main task.
Right now i am just brain storming, trying to get an idea together that will give us a big enough advantage to take on the RN.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Kraxis you never answered my questions about the Destroyer, though that may have been intentional, I'll post them again just in case you overlooked them.

Can we also try to get our hands on some excellent english speakers for the crew so she'll be of even more use? Just a few officers should be enough if the crew is very well-trained. Also is there any other way that we could give the Destroyer greater than usual combat capabilities (especially at close range)?

[AntiochusIII]

4) C: Offensive actions.

Defensive is the death of the Germans, for our objective is to severe the link between Great Britain and France. On the other hand, specific operations will never work with the British practically owning the Bight. The loss of 11 excellent battleships could be crippling to the Royal Navy, if we succeed. Though we still have to be very careful, since the 11 battleships might as well be placed there to force us on offensive.

And therefore, due to the general strategy of offensive actions, my other choices are:

1) I'm very torn, but decided for B based on the knowledge that the British knows that it is in our hands. Therefore the surprise score the ship might've got is virtually neutralized. We can still use it in other ways, say, crashing into Calais loaded with explosives. Those guns can be kept in for reserves and perhaps, even, bolster our new light forces.

2) A: Let them. Though I think scouting the Bight would be better, to prevent nasty surprises; at nighttime, of course. The Zeppeliners want to do it, after all. It's not that often that such scouts would like to risk their lives for the nation on their own initiatives. Therefore, convince them to the Bight instead if you could, but if not, still let them go.

3) B: BUT TESTING FIRST. If the test works well -- and I mean at very low risk or less, no half-hearted implementation -- implement them. The Brits would come for a nasty surprise to have their airships shot down by Zeppelin scouts. And a basic defense against the fighters is needed. If it's too risky, then it's too risky.

As for the ships, our light forces are in immediate need of replenishing and bolstering. The Coln (with the two dots I cannot type in) class ships would make our light forces much, much stronger than they were. As much as I'd love to have the [/I]Mackensen[I] battlecruisers in service, the light forces are of a more important priority.

If we could sneak in a battlecruiser or two in the list, though, do it. Our heavy forces could very well be heavily damaged in future operations with such an aggressive RN, especially if it would cost only a small amount of influence.

[discovery1]

and why shouldn't the Tommies think that the destroyer was sunk rather than captured?

[Lord Winter]

I think if the destroyer is to have an value as a decoy we have to move out immediately with it, or else the Brits are going to suspect it more,

[Franconicus]

So what will it be?

1) How can we use the destr.?
- it could do some recon - he could get close to the RN, might be valuable; but he would not need guns for that; could even have bad impact
- it could get close to a battle ship and fire torpedoes; guns would not help, though
- it could break into a convoy and sink ships, maybe during night; here guns would help!
- it could be sunk to block a port or river. Would not need guns for that.

so after all take:
B: The guns will be better off in reserve for any other damage suffered to other light cruisers.

2) Scouting Scapa Flow
The crew knows it is risky and will be careful. So:A, let them out.

3) Arming the zeppeliners
pro's: raises moral, they could attack transport ships
con: has no real effect, so moral would decrease again after the first battle; makes them heavier and may damage the structure!
So:
A: Don't dabble with gun and zeppeliners. Too much can go wrong. Stability, structural strength, explosions.
Add as many machine guns as possible.

4) Strategy. This impacts the options of the next few chapters.

A: Defensive. The Grand Fleet is actively trying to attack you. Let them, and strike at them in exposed positions, such as if they sneak in once more. Focus will be on the Bight, both inside and outside the minefields.

We do not have time to play anymore. We have to takle the gloves off!

B: Special operations. Convoy hunting, portstrikes, short sallies, perhaps even landing some special formations of infantry on the British coast.

We do not have time to play anymore. We have to takle the gloves off! This is no longer a marathon, it is a sprint :2thumbsup:

C: Offensive. Actively seek out the British forces with strong forces. Retake the Bight for operations in the near future.
Attack. We must win and we must win now. We are at the same situation as our commrades in France. If we do not win now, Germany is lost!!!
So option C

Don't forget to comment on the ships the Kaiser has offered to help you with.
And be sure to combine your options as some obviously don't mix well.
The Cöln (Köln?) class would be great!

[AggonyDuck]

Well the advantage of the destroyer is that it looks like a British ship and even if the Brits would know that we had captured it, they would still have a hard time in seeing the difference between it and a destroyer of their own. That essentially means that it will be quite hard to find out that it actually is a German ship from a distance. Usually even putting a British flag and a mock chimney would be enough to trick the Brits from a distance. :2thumbsup:

So do equip the destroyer, it might be handy in recon and stealthy port strikes etc.

Also the Cöln's will come in handy due to our lack of light forces.

[Kagemusha]

I have been thinking my head off how to use that captured British ship.Here is the plan:If the British are actually making some kind of rotation in that battlegroup thats sitting in the Blige and watching our movements.If thats a case we could start making a hole to the minefield in the Western part then sail towards the British as if we were the replacement force the captured British vessel as the first ship.I think in order to pull the suprise attack off,we need some extraordinary weather like a heavy fog(Which is by the way not very unusual in the North Sea).If the British battle group will bye the first ship as one of their own we can creep right next to them before opening fire at them.To support the plan we should start moving also very agressively inside the mine field,so the British battle group focus on that movement.Also that would allow us to support the suprise attack very rapidly from inside the minefields.So if we would succeed in that suprise, the 11 British Battleships would be between hammer and the anvil and that could lead in a Strategig victory.:bow:

[King Kurt]

I go away for a few days and everybody goes post crazy!!
My views - Arm the destroyer and save it for the attack on the channel port.
Don't recon Scapa Flow - doesn't give us a lot and might tip off the English we are planning something.
Arm the Zep - we lost the Zep in the previous battle as it had to take on the English airship, so let's give em an edge.
Strategy - gather everything together and and strike at the 11 battleships in the Bight. We can't do anything else while they are there. We back the fleet up with all our Zeps and we aim to attack them in the afternoon - this gives us enough daylight to make a decisive attack, but any force from Scapa etc would arrive after dark. Also the setting sun will silouette the English in the evening. we need to strike soon as the big box carrier with its fighters will threaten the edge our zeps give will be here soon.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Finally some sparetime to skim through the last few posts :2thumbsup:



Don't recon Scapa Flow - doesn't give us a lot and might tip off the English we are planning something.
Arm the Zep - we lost the Zep in the previous battle as it had to take on the English airship, so let's give em an edge.
Strategy - gather everything together and and strike at the 11 battleships in the Bight. We can't do anything else while they are there. We back the fleet up with all our Zeps and we aim to attack them in the afternoon - this gives us enough daylight to make a decisive attack, but any force from Scapa etc would arrive after dark. Also the setting sun will silouette the English in the evening. we need to strike soon as the big box carrier with its fighters will threaten the edge our zeps give will be here soon.

I agree, this sounds like the best way to go at this time.

As for the destroyer, at the moment I don't think we should use it ATM. The enemy most likely knows it was captured and probably expects use to use it for deception manouvers very soon. We should save that finesse until later IMO. Let's be patient and make them think we're not clever enough to take advantage of this potentially very powerful weapon, and then use it when they least expect it :2thumbsup:

[Kommodus]

Strategy - gather everything together and and strike at the 11 battleships in the Bight. We can't do anything else while they are there. We back the fleet up with all our Zeps and we aim to attack them in the afternoon - this gives us enough daylight to make a decisive attack, but any force from Scapa etc would arrive after dark. Also the setting sun will silouette the English in the evening. we need to strike soon as the big box carrier with its fighters will threaten the edge our zeps give will be here soon.

I agree! The British may think that 11 battleships plus support is enough to keep us bottled up in the Bight. In this they are utterly wrong. If we strike hard with all (or at least most) of our fleet, we can deal them a crippling blow that will bring us much closer to our goal of severing the channel.

Nevertheless, the obvious question that arises is: where is the rest of the British fleet? Elements of it may be escorting convoys, moored at Scapa Flow, or simply patrolling the waters in unknown locations. That's why I want to recon Scapa Flow - it'll give us a clear idea of how much of the British fleet is out on the water. If significant portions of it remain at home, we can attack immediately with confidence.

[Kagemusha]

Gentlemen by hitting the 11 Battleships in the Bligh without any edge of tactics can turnout to be a massacre for us.The English are waiting us to do that and are prepared.Lets not get blind becouse of our own achievements so far.Becouse we have won the battles so far doesnt make us immortal or unbeatable.:no:

[Lord Winter]

Gentlemen by hitting the 11 Battleships in the Bligh without any edge of tactics can turnout to be a massacre for us.The English are waiting us to do that and are prepared.Lets not get blind becouse of our own achievements so far.Becouse we have won the battles so far doesnt make us immortal or unbeatable.:no:
agreed caution is the way to aproach these ships, we shouldn't fight them on there own ground.

[Franconicus]

It looks like most agree that we have to sink the blocking force first. Here's my plan:

First we must sure that there will be no British Changing of the Guard while we attack. So we must place some recon west (I'd prefer some subs, they have to pass this sea anyway). Then we should get all our ships alert (maybe we can masquerate this, and do as if some ships are still n the docks.) Then form Force A (new ships+ light divisions) and Force B (old ones) again. Let both make some exercise out ther. Then, when it is dark, let Force B bypass the RN blocking force. The RN will try to catch them. Then Force A can get into their rear. If the battle is at night we should be able to get close. Of course Force B has to keep radio silence until they are spotted.
By the way, can we decode the British radio?
If the RN does not attack our Force B (unlikely) they will attack Force A and B has to return.

Timing is everything.

I think the plan could work; at least if it was a land battle. To be honest, I do not have a clue about naval warfare.

[AggonyDuck]

Well I think Kraxis will supply us with decent plans. :2thumbsup:

[King Kurt]

Franc - we should avoid night actions and not split our forces. We will be taking them on our terms and close to our bases. Ship for ship we are at least equal, if not better, so this should be an opportunity to overwhelm a smaller force. Let us remember that a damaged ship is as good as a sunk ship for our purposes. Also, a concentrated effort by our zeps will give us all the recon we need. So let us take them on in the afternoon, give them a bit of beating then withdraw back to base under cover of darkness. We must achieve a german controled Bight if we are to slip out to attack the Channel.

The one area to consider is the problem of getting through the minefield gap where we might get our T crossed - solution a new gap, as per the recent post from kraxis and maybe putting an older ship up front to take the flak.

Kraxis - when do the new ships arrive? we would need to plan to see if we could incorporate them in our current plans. Also, is it resolved what we are getting?

[Flavius Clemens]

My own set of thoughts:

In timing the battle, depending on exactly where the British are at the time, our most direct line of approach is likely to be from the south east, which would make dawn the best time for our attack - the rising sun behind us should both make it easier for us to see them and dazzle their lookouts. This does however raise the question of how easy it would be to get our fleet through the minefield gap in the night, especially as there are usually skirmishes going on there then.

Given that the RN's ships are built to patrol the empire, and therefore have greater operating range than ours, I doubt they will need to rotate their guard in the next few days, but we do need good reconnaissance anyway so we can make our maneouvers with confidence that there's no trap just over the horizon.

Looking back to the very first post, we had 17 dreadnoughts (plus the two we brought back from Finland) and 5 battlecruisers, so when we're back at full strength have the potential to outnumber the British force, but achieving that will need careful deployment, and if these really are their best forces the odds won't in practice be 2-1. Splitting the forces into A and B might let the British punch through force B before A can catch up, and then defeat each in turn, or defeat B and run for home and reinforcements. We might need two minefield gaps to get our forces out safely, but would need to concentrate them by the time we get to battle, probably not in one single line but certainly all able to strike at once.

But anyway, as others have said, I'm sure Kraxis will have an interesting set of firm options for us soon enough.

[Kraxis]

Nothing is settled until I post the chapter. Anyone and everyone can post or change their choices at any time. The only time they can't is while I'm posting the chapter. Sorry but that is how it is going to be.

The big ships are quite ready. Not finished of course, but they have all been launched. In practical terms they lack their guns, some rangefinding equipment and to an extent lesser equipment. They won't take much time obviously, but they will demand heavy repaircrews (well, they do both jobs, but can't do both at the same time) and new crews as well. These new crews will be quite untrained, but the plan is to mix them out among the more experienced crews and then use the slack to crew any new ships so you will get a homogenous force.

The light ships are in differing states of completion. One (Dresden II) is practically ready with minor issues to solve, the other five are in various levels of progress with the last Frauenlob II needing some work on her superstructure, her weaponry and boilers. Given the smaller size of these ship they can fairly fast be finished, but it is not certain enough to give timetables. You could be lucky they will be out within a week, or unlucky that only one will be out in that week the rest needing a month or more.

Remember, that while the offensive is going off soon it is estimated that it will run for at least one and a half months before any victory can be considered in reach.

[discovery1]

I would like the change be choice to focus on the light crusiers, provided you aren't posting now.

[Flavius Clemens]

The light ships are in differing states of completion. One (Dresden II) is practically ready with minor issues to solve, the other five are in various levels of progress with the last Frauenlob II needing some work on her superstructure, her weaponry and boilers. Given the smaller size of these ship they can fairly fast be finished, but it is not certain enough to give timetables. You could be lucky they will be out within a week, or unlucky that only one will be out in that week the rest needing a month or more.

Remember, that while the offensive is going off soon it is estimated that it will run for at least one and a half months before any victory can be considered in reach.

Given that we have more time than I expected before we have to make the Channel strike, and the timescale that the ships can be ready, I'll change my vote to go for a cruiser first, battlecruiser second.

[Kraxis]

Roll of the Die

It is an eventful time, and it forces you to make many choices each day. Fighting the urge to run away screaming you merely put the paper out of the way again. It is after all just a mindless rambling of propaganda. But the blatant selfpromoting article of the Kaiser's exploits reminded you of his promiss once more, and this time you haev made up your mind. You grab the phone and order a line with him.

A few minutes pass as the request goes through the appropriate channels and people, but finally the Kaiser answers in a gravelly voice. When he hears it is you, his voice lifts in mood. He rambles on about how he liked the taste of battle and other equally unlikely 'truths'. Eventually you manage to cut through his blabbering and deliver your request. He responds solemnly.
"Yes... I see Admiral. I had hoped you would ask for battleships, in fact I have been preparing for that, but fair enough. You deem light cruisers important, then that is what you re going to get. My generals are going to be happy with all the big 15 inch guns I can now hand over to them."
You hear a not insignificant amount of irony in his voice, and it seems your star is already fading with the man. While you caught a clear urge from him to continue the conversation before, now he is not so willing, and you prepare to finish the call, but just as you are about to do it he speaks up. "Admiral, I'm not going to lie; a lot of this war is in the mind of the public. Revolutionaries here, protests and strikes in France and revolution in Russia. See what is lacking here?"
"Britain..."
"Yes! It is simply too stable to be true. They musn't feel the war as we do. Make them! I want a landing in England, show my cousin that he is not safe in his own country!"
"My Lord, I can't do that. I have neither the troops nor the ability to do that."
"Not to worry, I have already sent to Bremerhaven three regiments of infantry. No artillery but with more cavalry. A quick raid would be enough. Perhaps plunder one of my cousin's estates..." You hear the man almost snicker with the last comment.
"But My Lord, the British are out in force, I'm not certain we can beat them and then also protect the landingforce."
"Then LEAVE them! Just get some troops to England!" The Kaiser is almost yelling at you, and you get a feeling that this might be the future for your country.
"I can't do that. But I will think it over."
"Do that! If you can manage to do it, any way possible, you will have my gratitude and I will do my best to help you. Good luck Admiral." Then he hangs up.

You lean back in your chair and stare at the cieling. No no no no no... This can't be happening! But you have to admit that the plan has a bit of flair you like, and it would certainly make the British more cautious, maybe even bring troops home. Well, in any case that is not to decide now, now it is the British destroyer, aptly renamed Betruger (Deceptor) from Cyclone. The guns of Augsburg could really help it if it is going to do deceptions. Yes, Betruger should get the guns, after all she can only carry six of the eight guns if she is also going to get two racks of three torpedoes. In any case she will be armed as heavily as possible.
You quickly scribble down the order and your aide brings it to the responseable parties.

But what now? The talk with the Kaiser confused you a bit, but after a few seconds you remember the crew of the zeppeliner, and of course Colonel von Brasch and his plans. You pick up the phone once again an calls the zeppeliner base. When you get hold of the Colonel you don't wait for him to small talk like he normally does, so it is with nobility. Instead you quickly order him to give the green light for the long range scouting, as well as do some testing with the 77mm guns. The Colonel clearly taken aback never even manages to thank you before you hang up again.

With that finished you can finally dabble with what you really wanted to do, decide on the strategy ahead. For a few hours you sit and think the last few weeks events over. In the end your own conversation with the Kaiser decides the point for you. While you just wanted him to give up his little operation, the truth is that you are currently bottled up inside the minefields. The British are firmly in control of the waters. You can't let that happen. Not now, in fact this is very much a bad time for them to get up close and personal. Of all days, it has to be just before the great offensive.
But you must remove them, and you are certain a strong show of force will either persuade them to retreat long and far enough, or give you the chance to beat them up. Yes, offensive action is what is needed.

The rest of the day you work vigourously to get ready once more for large scale maneuvers and possibly action.
Very early the next morning you get up, ready to read the first reports from the scouts. They left during darkness and fairly strong winds, but now the winds have died down, and while you aren't certain what the weather is up there you think it is likely to be the same broken overcast as here.
The time slowly creeps ahead, and the first rays of light streak across the horizon, still no news. You pace the room with uncovered anxiousness. You look at the big watch more and more. They should have reported in by now, in fact they should be returning home! Not good.
Then finally, more than an hour after daybreak a message beeps in.
"24 big ships apparently ready, about 12 with smoke. Another six and a medium is in the docks, several with very clear and heavy levels of repair, but one heavy seems finished. Pictures taken."
A few minutes later a new report comes in.
"Small taskforce to the south, moving southerly direction. Center of formation is boxy ship of unknown configuration. Estimated speed of 12 knots."
More time passes before a final report arrives.
"Haven't been spotted yet but moving out.
Many gunnery targets in the big harbour, clear signs of usage. Several patrols of destroyers inside and outside the harbour. Mission accomplished."
Nice information, and it will likely boost the confidence of the other crews to know that they had snuck unseen into Scapa Flow.

When you get back to your office to make us of the info Colonel von Brasch calls. He declares that the guns can safely be installed. You are surprised by his speed, and ask him how he did it. He simply states that he had anticipated your order and done all the preliminary work. During yesterday he had the first gun installed and tested with 100 shots, the metal girders inside the zeppeliner proved capable of withstanding the stress. It turned out though, that an internal setup was impossible due to falling hot shells, but an outer construction on a swirvelmount on a platform with a gunshield proved most impressive, both in cover and in stability. But the weight added out front proved too much and the airship would get up properly, nosing down. Then a local peasant coming with some milk suggested mounting another gun aft which proved most excellent. With this there is no need for external ballast.
This is almost too good to be true.
Von Brasch also notes that two airships have now been outfitted with guns, but it will take longer for more as he didn't have any more premade platforms. You order them to chase the British airships from the Bight, and once more von Brasch seems to have read your intentions, and already one of them is patroling the skies out there. You thank him and look out at the trainstation. A large train had just arrived when you got back and you see now that it carried not just 5.9 inch guns, but armour plating and the first troops, including cavalry. The Kaiser's little toys to be thrown away. But before you can mill on that you begin to think of the offensive actions you should be taking with the British force.

So what will it be?

1) The breakout

I (Hasty maneuvers to catch the British without the reinforcements coming down)
A: Make a copy of The Great Run. Move out from the Gap in the east and lure the British to your waiting line of all available battleships with battlecruisers.
B: The British-made opening has been found. In their hurry to escape their minesweepers failed to pick up the markers. So make a northwestern variant of A. Risk is that the light will make you more visible to the British. But on the other hand you will be pinning them on the minefields and keeping their homebase behind you.
C: Make a bullcharge. Rush out from the east and try to scare him away. Should be successful and free of cost, but the British will then be able to reform with possible forces coming from the north.
D: If possible to sail out unnoticed, have Betruger decieve the enemy that you are in fact a reliefforce. Since you captured the codebooks for the next few days for the lights, it could pay off and you would get a massive first volley off against an unsuspecting enemy.

II (Deliberate maneuvers to get all available ships out and meet the British force, will happen tomorrow)
A: As in I.
B: As in I.
C: As in I.
D: Sneak out during the night and engage the enemy in a nightbattle. A zeppeliner on station at night should be able to report the position accurately. Risk is as always during night, confusion. Betruger leading a party of torpedoboats should decieve the enemy and then launch torpedoes at short range.

2) The Kaiser. While he is prepared to throw the troops lives away, you are not, so you will stay and protect them if you so chose. And I promis you get the option to reinforce the ships protecting them (if possible of course).
A: Indulge him. Load the troops that arrived today, a mere 500, onto topedoboats lead by Derfflinger and Hindenburg, then sail to the English coast in Kent or near Hartlepool. The two battlecruisers won't be in II but will sail with the force after initial engagements if ready. If damaged other battlecruisers stand by.
B: Indulge him. Wait until tomorrow when another 700 troops arrive, load onto the big fast commerce raiders in port. Then escort heavily with topedoboats and a taskforce of battleships and battlecruisers (4 and 3).
C: Wait until all the troops are ready (4500 soldiers and 700 cavalry). Prepare with fast transports and commerce raiders. Escort heavily.
D: Play the waiting game. Do not commit yourself to anything, but be prepared for an opening. But the Kaiser is obviously an impatient man.
E: Boot the troops out again. They are obviously soon to be needed at the front. Consequences can be costly.

3) Betruger (can't be chosen in case it is being used in 1)
A: She will begin a campaign of misinformation, spreading rumors and similar in British ports. This will undermine British morale.
B: She will play innocent at day, but at night she will attack channel ports and/or convoys in the channel.
C: Will lead a few heavy ships on a nightly portraid. (can be chosen ven if she is used in 1)

[discovery1]

When will we see that picture Kraxis?

Just send 500 or so men in the raid. Realtively low risk, and will cause panic among the tommies.

Try 1 D.

Also 3C should be given some serious consideration.

Comments?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

For the breakout I D, we need to smash them before the reinforcements arrive, and with Bertruger's help and the encircling motion it will hopefully give us an advantage. Plus I love the thought of lining the ocean bed with the pride of the British Fleet while preventing any escape.

2) Definately the first, fewer casualties, and 500 men should still be enough to raise all kinds of hell.

3) C, we only have this ace in our sleave for so long, eventually it will be revealed and useless, we must use it to its fullest.

[Csargo]

For 1I we should do probably do D because hopefully we can catch the British out guard and encircle them and trap them where there is no escape.

For 2 I agree with disco and Kenshin 500 should be enough to cause panic with the British.

For 3 I think we should do C

Well thats all I got

[AntiochusIII]

Okay, first of all, Franconicus, you are right. Herr Kaiser is a bloodthirsty nutjob. Here's :2cents: for ya. :sweatdrop:

Now, finally things are heating up. Whatever the other forum is doing, they must be really in the mood to fight...

The choices, while really hard, comes out as risky-or-conventional choices. Of course, being me, risky is a much more attractive proposition, hence the theme of the choices:

1) *see later post*

2) A. Ah, the Kaiser's will cannot be denied. In You He Trust, so we sadly have to do something, somehow. This is the smallest choice and, if fails, costs the least; and if succeeded, five hundred "Huns" on the Tommies' home island is like drawing a Nazi caricature of King George--before the German Nazis were even established. If it's me in a single player game, with saves, and can replay, though, I would've tried to storm London. But it is not, and this is not Viking invasion, nor is it MTW France. :viking:

3) C, in full agreement with Uesugi Kenshin et al, I think we should use the toy while it lasts. After that it'll only be just another warship in the fleet, or, if unlucky, just another warship beneath the waves. :skull:

[Rodion Romanovich]

1D. B is too risky if their reinforcements come too early. A and C are also possible, but C could make too many of them escape. By the way, make sure to protect our beloved little British destroyer and get it out of harms way as soon as possible after it has pulled off the deception plan. We'll need it for the raid later, see 2. How about adding some further flavor to our breakout by sending a small force of some of our oldest ships up towards the gap while our main force slips out unnoticed somewhere else? That'll perhaps make them think our main force is luring further inside the gap, maybe they'll even try to go in through the gap. It'll keep them concentrated on what's inside the gap when the "relief force" lines up and sends it's first shells towards them! In conclusion - I think we need at least SOME diversion manouvre in order to keep their attention away from our main force sneaking out elsewhere. And as usual, use the zeppeliners for scouting and a few attached to the main force. If the enemy has noticed that we've lately kept zeppeliners attached to our main force, it'll further strengthen the deception if we attach one or two to the diversion force too.

2C. Wait for the troops to be ready. Hopefully we'll have cleared the bight by then. If not, he'll understand we can't succeed in carrying out a raid. If we do pull off the breakout this larger raid would have greater effect than a small raid now. Plus we want everything we can get for the upcoming engagement in the bight. I suggest conducting the raid with the help of the destroyer for deception. Also we first need to make plans for what the raid should target, not just rush in there headlessly. Edit: for example they could blow up some railway rails, some bridge, some ammo depot or whatever so it gets the desired demoralizing effect.

3 - already used in 1

[Kagemusha]

1) The breakout

I:D (Hasty maneuvers to catch the British without the reinforcements coming down)

D: If possible to sail out unnoticed, have Betruger decieve the enemy that you are in fact a reliefforce. Since you captured the codebooks for the next few days for the lights, it could pay off and you would get a massive first volley off against an unsuspecting enemy.

I like this idea very much.Its bold and sneaky.



2)
A: Indulge him. Load the troops that arrived today, a mere 500, onto topedoboats lead by Derfflinger and Hindenburg, then sail to the English coast in Kent or near Hartlepool. The two battlecruisers won't be in II but will sail with the force after initial engagements if ready. If damaged other battlecruisers stand by.

We have to obey him but this plan wastes as little lives as possible.

[Ludens]

1) ID: I am not entirely sure what the difference is between I and II, apart from the presence or absence of British reinforcements. Are we going to have less ships available if we strike early? If so, how many?

2) D: if we are going to hit British, we should concentrate our forces. Not in a drizzle, but in a downpour, as Guderian would say. First we need to clear the bright (this is pretty much the same LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix is saying), and then we can please the Emperor.

3) C (provided we can use her)

About the zepelins: I think the flak guns will slow them down considerably so would should not arm them all. Just have a few armed for dangerous duties, and kept the rest light and fast. How many zeps do we have available?

[Kraxis]

1) ID: I am not entirely sure what the difference is between I and II, apart from the presence or absence of British reinforcements. Are we going to have less ships available if we strike early? If so, how many?

About the zepelins: I think the flak guns will slow them down considerably so would should not arm them all. Just have a few armed for dangerous duties, and kept the rest light and fast. How many zeps do we have available?
It is not ccertain, but at least a few heavy ships can't join you right away, for various reasons, for instance the crew of Kaiser are not at station. The engines of Westfalen is still making trouble, so she can't just start up as you want her to. And Seydlitz has been cleaning out her ammobunks, thus she is unarmed and will take some time to load up. There might be other ships as well.

Also, going out fast might be somewhat confusing.

You have 11 zeps ready, though they can't all fly at the same time. At best 7-8 can be in the air at the same time. This is due to the mooringmast is just that, singular.

[Kagemusha]

It is not ccertain, but at least a few heavy ships can't join you right away, for various reasons, for instance the crew of Kaiser are not at station. The engines of Westfalen is still making trouble, so she can't just start up as you want her to. And Seydlitz has been cleaning out her ammobunks, thus she is unarmed and will take some time to load up. There might be other ships as well.

Also, going out fast might be somewhat confusing.

You have 11 zeps ready, though they can't all fly at the same time. At best 7-8 can be in the air at the same time. This is due to the mooringmast is just that, singular.

In that case i change my answer to II d.We need a concentrated effort.It wont be a picnic against those battleships.~:)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Yes Kagemusha that is true, but the enemy will also have more ships. We need to crush them decisively now, or we will be left waiting for the best opportunity to arrive until Ludendorf's Spring Offensive falters and becomes mired. We must act now.

My vote stays with ID.

[Kagemusha]

Good point Kenshin.:bow: So this is little confusing now.We know that if we move fast against those ships there are 11 battleships against us.How many and what kind of ships we can muster against them and how many more for the night attack?That is crucial information.

[Ludens]

Thanks Kraxis. I'd like to add the following questions to Kagemusha's request: hasn't the zeppelin spotted the number of light and heavy ships in the taskforce leaving Scapa Flow? How big is a "small" task force anyway? And what information is available about the British battlegroup outside the minefield? Eleven battleships, yes, but how many supporting (battle) cruisers and destroyers?

[Kraxis]

Battlecruisers and battleships are intelligeble from each other. So 11 battleships means 11 big ships.
The light forces count somewhere around 10 light cruisers and perhaps 20 destroyers, but the zeppeliners have kept their distance for this period, just keepign an eye on the group and the number of big ships.

The small squadron heading south was quite far away from the scout. They couldn't tell what kind of ships were there, but the boxy ship stood out because of it's shape, on the backdrop of a morning's light on the horizon.

You can be sure that all ships (minus those in dock, and they have been named earlier) will be ready if you chose options from II. If you chose I the three I mentioned migth or might not be able to join you.

[AggonyDuck]

1) The breakout

I (Hasty maneuvers to catch the British without the reinforcements coming down)
This is a tricky one, because sailing out undetected might be quite a hard feat, but if we can do it then D is good.

But I've been also thinking about B might be an option, because I especially like the part of being between the enemy and their ports. Also I believe the Brits won't expect us to make use of that gap.

So personally I'd like to do option D with a twist and try to slip behind the enemy using the western gap and then do the deception with the destroyer. I believe especially the fact that we're coming from the northwest should help us deceive them initially. Although the problem here is trying to slip through the minefields undetected.

Another option would be to slip out during the next night through the western gap and then during dawn try to deceive that you're the relief force coming towards the enemy with a south-eastern course. Only bad thing is that the sun would be in our eyes in this scenario, but on the other hand it should give us the advantage of surprise, press the enemy against the minefields and if we time it right during sunrise the British ships will be illuminated against the sun, while we are coming out from the darkness.

So my vote might actually be a Nr. II with a mix of B and D...:dizzy2:

But if such a combination isn't feasible, then option D should do fine. :2thumbsup:


2)

B: Indulge him. Wait until tomorrow when another 700 troops arrive, load onto the big fast commerce raiders in port. Then escort heavily with topedoboats and a taskforce of battleships and battlecruisers (4 and 3).

I chose this one, because if there's heavy sea on the North Sea, then those torpedoboats might get severe probs in high waves. Better be safe than sorry. But would be cool if you could delay the operation with one more day, so that we could prepare it a bit more.

3) Betruger (can't be chosen in case it is being used in 1)

C: Will lead a few heavy ships on a nightly portraid. (can be chosen ven if she is used in 1)

Propably we won't be able to use her, but if we do then a proper portraid is the best thing for her. But that can be worried about later on.

[Ludens]

Thanks Kraxis. I have reevaluated my choices and I now think ID is too much of a risk. It only takes one British lookout that focuses on the Betruger's guns (or the ships behind it) and our deception will go awry. Instead, I prefer IID. The British will be reinforced, but we will be in full force as well and the Furious's planes will be useless at night. A confused night battle fought at our terms, with a zep hovering near by (but not too close as not to attract Furious' planes), may well give us the victory we want.

[Flavius Clemens]

A few questions for clarification

If options in 1 I happen in daylight today, and most of 1 II in daylight tomorrow, is 1 II D tonight or tomorrow night? This potentially makes a difference in whether the British have received reinforcements.
Also am I right in thinking 1 II D is a full fleet attack begun by a torpedo run, not just Betruger and the torpedo boats?

And my current thoughts

1)
Final decision depends on the above questions, but
I a) - Will they fall for the same trick twice? I suspect not.
b) - Can we time this as an afternoon attack so the sun is behind us?
c) - Definitely not, this just means that when we do have to face them they will have reinforcements.
d) - Betruger may be convincing, but just how close can our main force get before it's obvious they're German? High risk.
Is it feasible to include b or d with a move out of the eastern gap by some pre-dreadnaughts, to con the British into thinking that's the real attack?

2)
I'm not sure we should feel too guilty about sending troops over to Britain. If you were given the choice of i) landing in Britain, engaging in a fast raid against specific targets and then getting out or surrendering or ii) going to the Western Front and charging across no man's land, which would you pick?

We have to do something to keep the Kaiser happy, but I really don't want to risk the Battlecruisers - we need them more elsewhere, and they could easily run into British reinforcements on the way back. A large scale landing would be logistically difficult, and the troops probably will be of more use at the front.
So, I want to opt for A but without the battlecruisers - just torpedo boats. Go for Hartlepool area as the target (I suspect Kent will be too full of tommies en route to France). Besides the port of Hartlepool, the Redcar steelworks just south is very close to the coast (and a quick check has just revealed it opened in 1917, so is presumably one of the most modern the British have). We could land troops to attack one, shell the other, take some propaganda photos of our brave soldiers blowing up British blast furnaces or dockyard cranes and get out. If the RN turn up get our ships out quickly - we need to preserve our light forces - and let the troops surrender with honour.
Whatever we do, radio silence is of course essential on this mission.

3
Depends on what I finally decide for 1, but if she is available I'd go for option B. Don't want to risk the bigger ships too at this stage, and they could compomise her deception. And sinking ships is of itself also bad for British morale, whereas option a) just lowers morale without material impact.

[Kraxis]

IID means an attack this coming night. It gives you enough time to colelct your forces so don't worry, but at the same time you have to expect the British squadron will have arrived, and you only know that it is small and contains a boxy ship.

[Kagemusha]

Ok.I will stick with 2)d.We wanted a big battle and this is pretty much it.I urge you guys to go with that option.We need our full force in that battle.About the British reinforcements.Lets remember that with option 2)d we will have all of our available forces in the battle.Reinforcements or not we will outnumber them,and if our plot succees we will also suprise and cripple them.:bow:

[AggonyDuck]

Is it possible to in IID to do the breakout at night and then initiate the Torpedoboat attack just before dawn? If we could time it right, then I believe that we could get daylight once we're engaged close to them and we would propably be able to avoid some of the chaos of the nightbattle, while still having the advantage of visibility that the night offers us?

So I'm sticking with a IID and using the western gap sounds good. Also Flavius idea of sending the pre-dreadnoughts through the eastern gap sounds good. If so we might manage to sandwich them between our forces and the minefields. :2thumbsup:

[Kagemusha]

I completely agree. This is what we have been waiting for lets now do it.:2thumbsup:

[Kraxis]

Also Flavius idea of sending the pre-dreadnoughts through the eastern gap sounds good. If so we might manage to sandwich them between our forces and the minefields. :2thumbsup:
If you remember it was decided not to activate them. Such actions takes time. So they can't come to your aid now.

[AggonyDuck]

Oh yeah good point...:wall: But is it possible to send some forces to do that?

[Flavius Clemens]

If you remember it was decided not to activate them. Such actions takes time. So they can't come to your aid now.
Damn, I now realise I even voted for this option... :wall: I think at times we've confused references to our older dreadnaughts and the pre-dreadnaughts.

I do think we should take steps to bring them back into operations, as we recently said, if nothing else they can act as a diversionary force - from a distance their smoke trail should show they are large ships that might be our main force - and whilst they won't be of much use against more modern RN forces, when we do go for the Channel they can attack merchant shipping and shore targets while our main fleet takes on the RN.

Can we send out attack boats (whatever you described as the equivalent of WW2 e-boats) through the eastern gap instead of the pre-dreadnaughts?

Having done a little more reading on HMS Furious I am worried by the idea of waiting for battle tomorrow, if that means the 'small taskforce' will have re-inforced the British battleships. This will give the British air superiority, at least during the day, keeping our Zeps at bay and allowing British recon which will hamper our chances for subterfuge and surprise. Also in real life one of the first things Furious did was launch a bombing raid on a Zeppelin base, so we may find our 'eyes' are left with nowhere to operate from.

So, I think we need to strike today with the available forces, and then follow up with action against the Furious taskforce as soon as we can (maybe using Betruger), and doing whatever we can to stack the odds in our favour. So I vote for 1-I-B, but if at all possible a) timed to afternoon so the light is to some extent with us rather than against us and b) with some kind of diversion first via the eastern gap if at all possible. If the majority view is still to wait for tomorrow, then I vote for the night attack.

For the other choices I'll go with:
2 - a if we can do this without the battlecruisers, otherwise d (maybe a big victory today will help us change the Kaiser's mind).
3 - b if we are in a position to use her.

[Kommodus]

Now this is an interesting set of choices. I'm extremely pleased with the results of our previous decisions - particularly the decision to scout Scapa Flow. Here's why: we have accounted for most of the British fleet. The 24 heavy ships at Scapa Flow and 11 on the edge of the Bight account for most of the British heavy forces.

What of the small task force heading south and accompanied by what appears to be an aircraft carrier? I myself hold it in little regard. Carriers had not reached maturity at this stage, and were not the dominant force they were to become in later years. This lightly-escorted experiment by the British will be little more than a tasty morsel for our great battleships.

So here are my conclusions:

1) The Breakout

I vote II D, and agree with AggonyDuck's suggestion to mix in a bit of B by using the western gap. We'll also have to watch our backs for the arrival of the British task force.

2) The Kaiser

Let's go with B. I want the Hindenburg and Derfflinger for our vastly more important operation, but let's not waste any more troops than necessary.

3) The Bretruger

This is a little tricky, because if we use it in 1) we will definitely tip of the British that we have it. A and B are right out, because we'll be using it already. The question therefore is: to C or not to C? Once we've used it to psyche the British out in a major fleet confrontation, they'll be on guard against it; thus, a port raid will probably not succeed, and at worst could waste some of our heavy ships. I say we're already getting our money's worth out of it with II D - let's keep it back for a while after that, and not push our luck.

[Kraxis]

Ok, there seems to be a bit of confusion about the battlecruisers on possible escort.

If you go for 1) II choices and then 2A then you will lack these ships as they are on escort (they leave the day before you do).
Unfortunately you can't refuse the escort. The torpedoboats will be heavily laden, and won't be much good if they meet British destroyers or even worse light cruisers. And since both types of ships are stationed in fair numbers along the eastern coast (the target), there is far too little chance the torpedoboats can make it alone, and since the light cruisers are severely depleted you can't afford to send a strong escort of them. You will need heavier units.

Should British battleships pop up the escort will take up the fight against a single enemy battleship, guage the situation with two, run at three. British battlecruisers are confirmed in Scapa Flow and as such can't be expected to arrive in time (also they would more likely be sent to force you back home rather than deal with unimportant landings). Should they do the escort will engage up to two battlecruisers, and guage the situation with three.
The two battlecruisers in 2A will be quite safe on this assignment.

The attackboats don't have the stamina to sail that far. They can in theory do it, but they are as yet still rather primitive and don't handle heavy seas well at all. They are only practical in shallow home waters where they can strike from hidden locations.

[Franconicus]

I (Hasty maneuvers to catch the British without the reinforcements coming down)

B: The British-made opening has been found. In their hurry to escape their minesweepers failed to pick up the markers. So make a northwestern variant of A. Risk is that the light will make you more visible to the British. But on the other hand you will be pinning them on the minefields and keeping their homebase behind you.

If we erase the whole fleet this will have a big impact on the British morla and the coming operations. And hell - do this Tommies really think they can capture us in our own harbors. Time to teach them a lesson!

2) The Kaiser. While he is prepared to throw the troops lives away, you are not, so you will stay and protect them if you so chose. And I promis you get the option to reinforce the ships protecting them (if possible of course).

D: Play the waiting game. Do not commit yourself to anything, but be prepared for an opening. But the Kaiser is obviously an impatient man.
Wait. If we do a landing, it can only be part of the big operation. So let's first clear the bay, then start an operation.

3) Betruger (can't be chosen in case it is being used in 1)
B: She will play innocent at day, but at night she will attack channel ports and/or convoys in the channel.
Best thing to fritter the RN forces!

Kraxis,
I do not think that you describe the role of the Kaiser how it was. First of all I doubt tha´t an ordinary admiral could talk directly to him. Then I also doubt that he had the power to decide any operation goals. So if there is really the order to make a landing, then it comes from the General Staff and the Kaiser is only a straw dog, who will have the blame, if it fails. In the last years of the war Germany was de facto a military dictatorship.

[King Kurt]

Hardly a post all week then you all go crazy over the weekend.
I believe we should strike before the Furious arrives as her planes will give the english a recon advantage. We however must not risk a night action - our light forces are weak while our heavy forces will outnumber the English locally, so it should be a Hasty daytime action. As we are going for a knockout punch we should try and catch the English against the minefields - so 1: I B.

We should carryout a quick raid - it will put the English off guard. I would go for northen East Anglia, near King's Lynn. King's Lynn is a reasonably important port, but would probably be not that well defended. More importantly Sandringham, one of the Royal palaces is nearby and could be raided by a swift force, preferably cavalry - Kraxis, I see we have some horse - so a few Ulhans on the Royal estate will please the Kaiser greatly and cause a disproportant level of furore with the English. Sandringham is a summer palace, so the King is unlikely to be there which also means less likelehood of a large garrison . Also, this area is the nearest to our bases and the coast is quite open and hence easy for landings. Hartlepool was raided earlier in the war I believe - shelled by battlecruisers - so it may be more heavilly defended. When all the other troops arrive, we can use them for a port raid.

Betruger - our new toy - we must not waste this valuable asset - so let us hold it back until the raid on the port.:2thumbsup:

[Kraxis]

Kraxis,
I do not think that you describe the role of the Kaiser how it was. First of all I doubt tha´t an ordinary admiral could talk directly to him. Then I also doubt that he had the power to decide any operation goals. So if there is really the order to make a landing, then it comes from the General Staff and the Kaiser is only a straw dog, who will have the blame, if it fails. In the last years of the war Germany was de facto a military dictatorship.
You can talk to him, or at least could. He was very impressed with you and the High Seas Fleet. And while he has no real operational capability he is being placated by the generals (and who says that it is the Kaiser's own idea? People liked to whisper in his ears).

[Franconicus]

You can talk to him, or at least could. He was very impressed with you and the High Seas Fleet.
Even then there would have been o lot of people (staffs, servants, politicians, ...) who would have prevented it. And now, I bet the admirality is very upset about our fault pas.:oops:

[Lord Winter]

I think we should attack at night, our zeps should give us a significant advantage and spotting. IMHO the Betruger would be of the most use in a night battle were the brits have less of a chance to identify it as one our ships before it opens fire. Secondly i think we should not divide our forces if we already outnumber them why use our advantage? It seems to me that the British could smash one force while fighting a delaying action with the other then smash that one. So I say II D


2) b lets attack when the bight is cleared.

3) see 1

[Ludens]

Hardly a post all week then you all go crazy over the weekend.
I believe we should strike before the Furious arrives as her planes will give the english a recon advantage. We however must not risk a night action - our light forces are weak while our heavy forces will outnumber the English locally, so it should be a Hasty daytime action. As we are going for a knockout punch we should try and catch the English against the minefields - so 1: I B.
Exactly why are you against a night action? It will give us the chance to escape the minefield unnoticed and I don't think WWI aircraft carriers were sophisticated enough for night missions (they weren't really important anyway), so that cancels out the Furious. Also, we have a zeppelin spotting, and because we are better trained and have the initiative the chaos should hurt the English more.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Exactly why are you against a night action? It will give us the chance to escape the minefield unnoticed and I don't think WWI aircraft carriers were sophisticated enough for night missions (they weren't really important anyway), so that cancels out the Furious. Also, we have a zeppelin spotting, and because we are better trained and have the initiative the chaos should hurt the English more.

Yes, and combine that with the Betruger and a few torpedo boats sneaking close for another direction right before the bigger ships start shelling, or the other way around - the Betruger and a few torpedo boats sneaking close from the other direction AFTER the ships start shelling - they'll look like reinforcements for a while.

[Flavius Clemens]

Can't speak for King Kurt, but my own preference for going today is not that the Furious can present any threat at night, but what it's aircraft might do during the day tomorrow before our night attack. Sopwith Camels will be far more of a threat to our Zeps than their airships have been, so we would have to keep them out of harms way, and on past form I'd put money on the British launching a bombing raid against the hangers. Hence I'd rather attack with what we can today before Furious arrives, which will still allow us a good superiority in capital ships. If we have a win against the battleships it might make the Brits withdraw the Furious taskforce before it arrives, and if not we can send the battlecruisers against it.

There is a separate question of whether our relative lack of light forces is more of a disadvantage in daytime or night combat. I'm not sure about this, but as a night combat is likely to be at closer range there must be some risk the British destroyers could make an effective torpedo counterattack.

[Ludens]

Those are good points. I may change my vote again, but I am uncertain. I'd like to know of each option exactly what the risk is that the British will pin us while we are trying to leave the minefield. In other words: how close are they and how likely are they to find out?

[Kraxis]

Ok, again...

The night attack will be the first night, the options of II will be tomorrow. I obviously is as soon as possible.

[King Kurt]

Exactly why are you against a night action? It will give us the chance to escape the minefield unnoticed and I don't think WWI aircraft carriers were sophisticated enough for night missions (they weren't really important anyway), so that cancels out the Furious. Also, we have a zeppelin spotting, and because we are better trained and have the initiative the chaos should hurt the English more.
The relative weakness of our light forces is my major concern about a night action - our capital ships would be susceptable to a torpedo attack in the general melee. We did well in the last night action purely due to the fortunate coincidence of taking the Kaiser for a trip around the bay. The presence of our heavies meant we quickly overwhelmed the English force.
During a day action we are, ship for ship, at least the equal, if not the superior of the English - but they have significantly more ships than we do. However, we know there are about 11 heavies in the Bight so we can get a local superiority over them. Also, by catching them against the minefields, they can't get away. So, why risk the lottery of a night action, when we have all the advantages in a day action.
Finaly, the concern about the Furious is as a threat to our Zepplins. They give us an edge in any day battle by their recon and spotting activities. If Furious's planes drive them off, the English will have that advantage. As a seperate point, I am not convinced that a Zep adds much to a night action - they would struggle to tell who was who.:2thumbsup:

[Lord Winter]

IMHO i cant see a WWI plane trying to fly in night while shells and aa are raining all over. Our zeps will be much safer as in they will be less vissable and with the zeps we have the serious advantage of spoting, which the brits won't have. In the day, the zeps will be out in the open, the british planes can do recon, and they will also have better visibility (ours at night is made up for by the zeps)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I'd just like to say that I predict a night battle will be the end of us. I don't see us going into it with any real advantage but suprise, and I see us coming out of it on the wrong side of the slaughter.

With quick strike to pin them against the mines we have a number of advantages, and will not even have to worry about Furious because it will be a ways off. We will also not run the risk of having our capital ships torpedoed and our Zeppelins will lend us a decisive advantage.

Please don't send us into a night battle, it will be the end of us even if we win.

[Ludens]

Okay, you convinced me. I change my vote to IB, provided Kraxis hasn't written the next episode yet. Let's hope the British won't catch us in the minefield.

[AntiochusIII]

Okay, you convinced me. I change my vote to IB, provided Kraxis hasn't written the next episode yet. Let's hope the British won't catch us in the minefield.But, Ludens, choice I will most likely result in either an evening battle or a night one; so what's the difference when considering Uesugi Kenshin's concerns?

Me, on the other hand, believe that we have a slight advantage to choose the night. The possible British airplanes will be paralyzed in the night--our Zeppelins might have lower scouting capability, but at least they will be safe from the vicious fighters during the night, and they would still help, anyway, against a blind enemy. Also, tomorrow our forces will be a little weaker if choice 1 is to be concluded as the answer for question 2, while the British could possibly receive reinforcements that are currently on their way. I see no real advantage to go strike later in the daylight except for a few less risk factors. Torpedo is a major risk, but it would seem choice B helps with less chance for the British to launch torpedoes.

Tomorrow would only make the discrepancy of the light forces' strengths even larger.

However, I've changed my mind about choice 1: 1B--which I presume will be at night, or evening, tpday; just as soon as possible--seems to me a better choice if to be used in conjunction with 3C. 1D might be too risky a maneuver even in the cover of night (how could such a large force slip by unnoticed, through a usual gap, if the British are specifically watching the Bight?), and, if the pinning succeeds, the battleships are finished.

I also voice my support to choose Sandringham as a possible location for a quick raid, but would rather hear concrete information first, before fully endorsing it.

[Flavius Clemens]

Ok, again...

The night attack will be the first night, the options of II will be tomorrow. I obviously is as soon as possible.
Ah, sorry I had misinterpreted 'coming night' as tomorrow night, as you mentioned that the reinforecement British squadron would probably have arrived by then.

However, I stick with my original choice of 1-I-B ahead of 1-II-D. I'm sure we'll take some damage either way, but I think the risk in the night battle is higher as the engagement will have to be at closer range, helping the enemy destroyers to get in among us with torpedoes. Also more chance of at least some of the British getting away in the dark, and any damaged ships of ours might struggle to get back through the minefield gap during the night.

On the raid on the UK - Sandringham looks very close to the coast, but I think The Wash is relatively shallow and with treacherous tides (open to correction on this!) which might make getting our task force in risky.

[Kagemusha]

Guys so we are sailing out with not full fleet.At evening. I must express my worries but if we are spotted on the minefilds we will be slaughtered.Il stick with II D.Altough it doesnt matter becouse the majority thinks otherwise.:sweatdrop:

[GoreBag]

1 D, 2 A and 3 C.

[Ludens]

But, Ludens, choice I will most likely result in either an evening battle or a night one; so what's the difference when considering Uesugi Kenshin's concerns?
Is it? I have no idea of time, so I naturally assumed that there would be plenty.


Me, on the other hand, believe that we have a slight advantage to choose the night. The possible British airplanes will be paralyzed in the night--our Zeppelins might have lower scouting capability, but at least they will be safe from the vicious fighters during the night, and they would still help, anyway, against a blind enemy. Also, tomorrow our forces will be a little weaker if choice 1 is to be concluded as the answer for question 2, while the British could possibly receive reinforcements that are currently on their way. I see no real advantage to go strike later in the daylight except for a few less risk factors. Torpedo is a major risk, but it would seem choice B helps with less chance for the British to launch torpedoes.
IIRC British destroyers were considered the biggest threat at Jutland, so I don't fancy facing them at night with insufficient light ships to protect us. Day, or evening at least, will allow us to see them coming. Also, the night will cripple our advantage in scouting: the zeps may be able to discern the ships, but they won't see how far off our shots are, so they are little use for guiding the fire. I also fear that the Furious may do what she did historically: raid the zeppelin base.

I concur about the risk of Furious showing up at an inopportune moment, so I suggest we keep a sizeable reserve or position a detachment of ships in such a way they will be able to intercept her (I don't know how these things are done in naval battles).


Tomorrow would only make the discrepancy of the light forces' strengths even larger.
All the more reason to fight early.


However, I've changed my mind about choice 1: 1B--which I presume will be at night, or evening, tpday; just as soon as possible--seems to me a better choice if to be used in conjunction with 3C. 1D might be too risky a maneuver even in the cover of night (how could such a large force slip by unnoticed, through a usual gap, if the British are specifically watching the Bight?), and, if the pinning succeeds, the battleships are finished.
That is my choice also, so what are we arguing about?

[Kraxis]

It won't take that long to prepare and sail out in option I. There will be enough time for full scale battle in light, though it might get interrupted by the darkness.

[Franconicus]

Enough talk! Let's play "Battleships"!

[Kraxis]

Ok... We have a tie between IB and IID. 5 each and with 3 votes for ID. Seeing there are two people who have voted 1D I'm not too sure what that means. If it means ID then we have a threeway tie, but IID could mean a splitup.

So GoreBag and discovery, could you please state specifically what you want?

But besides those it is alsmost a walkover for 2A and 3C.

Also, guys when you cahnge your choices please say what you change it from. It can be a pain to go back and forth to find previous posts and not get confused at the same time.

[AggonyDuck]

Well Kurt's hunches have pulled us through so far, so I suppose I can change to I B. My biggest fear here is that the british ships manage to retreat before we can pin them against the minefields. That's why I preffered the night action, because I want to close them in, but I suppose I B might with good luck also do that.

So Kraxis I'll switch from IID to IB to break the tie.:2thumbsup:

One thing that has started to worry me is what are 11 battleships doing so close to the Bight, without the support of the Grand Fleet? :no:
That might not be an mistake and perhaps they're infact trying to lure us with those battleships straight into the Grand Fleet? Oh well, we'll just have to and see. :2thumbsup:

Btw, Kraxis could we send one Zeppelin north of the Bight to keep an eye open for British reinforcements or even the Grand Fleet?

[Kraxis]

Sure... After all the zeppeliners are already sweeping the British airships from the area. One of them could go north, just don't expect it to be very helpful in the fight as it is simply not there. And a single zeppeliner can only help so many ships.

[Kagemusha]

This is no flaming,but Kurts hunch did fail pretty bad on on Officers honour.But Alea Jacta Est.I hope our good luck wont end now.:sweatdrop:

[AggonyDuck]

Well to be honest I B is the low risk choice. It doesn't really take any serious risks and it's up to the Brits if we fight or not. Unless we can miraculously outmaneuver them that is. It's propably the safer choice, but I just can't see it bringing in the decisive victory for us either.

But for the sake of continuity of the story I'll hold on to my decision to switch to I B.

Also Kraxis, ignore my request about the Zeppelin. You pointed out the stupidity of it. :oops:

[discovery1]

Errr, yes I meant ID above....

[Kagemusha]

I could have been also more specific too.:bow: What i mean that if we choose option 1.B.We sail out with only parts of the fleet.And also there is no element of suprise in our attack.No matter what the battle against 11 British battleships wont be over in a hour. How Are we going to be able to get the rest of our ships in the battle through the minefields after the engagemnt have begun.The British are present there then and it can be us that are cut off.Why shouldnt we use the captured British vessel to get a tactical edge?

[King Kurt]

I am honoured - I didn't realise my thoughts were so well recieved!!! I feel a weight on my shoulders. We have done OK so far, but now is the critical time when we move from defense to attack. We are helped by the fact that the English seem to keep attacking piece meal and seem fascinated with gimmick weapons - the Glorius "heavy light cruisers" and the Furious aircraftcarrier.

And Kagemusha - you were probably right about Officer's Honour - I must admit I did think we were rushing into a possible trap, but thought that if we struck fast we would keep the Germans off balance. I also think we were all swept along by Franc's excellent story telling which created the apparent euphoria of "we are nearly there, one last push etc" My only defence - I was not alone in my thoughts!

Finally - I vote for Franc's view - let's play Battleships:2thumbsup:

[Rodion Romanovich]

It might have sounded like I changed my opinion to night battle above, but I'm still standing by the option I mentioned first (day battle very soon). Just for clarification I'm supporting the idea of a day battle very soon. I guess the tie was already broken before though but this probably settles it... ~:)

:charge:

[Kagemusha]

Finally - I vote for Franc's view - let's play Battleships

Seconded!:2thumbsup:

[Franconicus]

And Kagemusha - you were probably right about Officer's Honour - I must admit I did think we were rushing into a possible trap, but thought that if we struck fast we would keep the Germans off balance. I also think we were all swept along by Franc's excellent story telling which created the apparent euphoria of "we are nearly there, one last push etc"
:fainting: You make me turn pink!:flowers:

[King Kurt]

:fainting: You make me turn pink!:flowers:
Not a bad achievement for a Friday!!:2thumbsup:

[Kraxis]

Within Reach

This is it you think. There can be no doubt about it, it is the Furious sailing in the center of that squadron, but the distance it has to cover at said speed will have it arrive late in the night. At the same time you don't know what kind of other ships are in the squadron, the zeppeliner couldn't provide any info on that.
Given that Furious' planes can not only easily shoot down your zeppeliners and bomb their base, but also spot for the force it is attached to much easier than zeppeliners going to and from bases, you have to deal the forward force a blow now. It is time to attack!
You call for your aide and give him a range of orders, in essence to prepare all ships in fighting order, but those that can't be prepared for battle today will simply be left at home.

As you organize this hurried preperation you notice the arrived soldiers milling about in confusion. Obviously they don't know what is going on, and don't have a place to stay. 478 soldiers and officers and 57 Uhlans with their horses. They are lightly equipped with rifles, grenades, motars, some heavy machineguns and a few aircooled machineguns, but no artillery. While confused now they look like a capable lot. You smile to yourself, it would be a waste to not use them, and not get the gratitude of the Kaiser. And perhaps this will be distraction enough to make the British falter a bit and send some troops home to protect against landings in the future.
You detach 7 torpedoboats to carry the troops and two fast coaltenders to carry the cavalry. You plan for them to leave port this evening, then connect with Derfflinger and Hindenburg after they have dealt with the British force. The target will be Hartlepool port. You would have loved to attack on a beach, but given the tidals and the moving banks of sand you don't dare it. All your maps of the area are from prior to the war, which will by now be woefully out of date. You will have to be satisfied with the destruction of the port facilities and docks as well as what else the troops can destroy. While it doesn't sound very impressive, you know that Hartlepool is the principal port for the Scandianvian convoys.

At the same time you plan on using the Betruger in a raid on Dover. She and a small force of Prinzregent Luitpold and Fredrich der Grosse and their escort will trick their way in, then blast all ships and buildings they can hit, then retreat once more before the British can respond.

Within the hour the seven torpedoboats are all piled up in the bottom of the port, removing unneeded equipment and making upgrades to make them more fitting for the job they are about to embark on. The two coilers are emtied and flushed, quickly made ready for the embarking of the horses.
Of course this shift of torpedoboats will leave your battleforce somewhat low on both light cruisers and torpedoboats.

As the clock ticks towards noon the preperations are finishing. But besides the damaged ships, Von der Tann and Kaiserin, Seydlitz isn't ready for action just yet, her cleaning of the ammobunks have left her in an impossible situation. Kaiser's crew is spread out on portleave and can't be assembled in time to join you and finally Westfalen isstill having trouble with her boilers after the grounding. So in all you have three battlecruisers and 17 battleships ready, and with an escort of 8 light cruisers and 18 torpedoboats it is a force best for long range fighting. You wait a little while longer in the hope that Kaiser's crew might show up in sufficient number to let her sail, but at 12:15 you order the fleet to sail out.
On the bridge of Baden, just as you are being pulled from the berthing by tugs, you get a message from Colonel von Brasch. There aren't any British airships on the Bight, but the British force have moved closer to the general area of the Gap. It is as if they are anticipating something coming out there. You nod at this, the farther they move east the move chance you have of actually catching them surprised.

As the fleet files out of the long narrow bay you notice a light cruiser hurrying to catch up. It matches the looks of Cöln and you are about to send a reprimand for the slow response to the preperations, but then you notice Cöln only a short distance away herding a pack of torpedoboats into a line. The lookout on the bridgewing looks at you and smiles as he speaks. "It's the Dresden Herr Admiral!" The first of the new light cruisers is already finished, but then again she was almost finished anyhow. But if any time was good for her to be finished, this is it.
By now you recieve the reports from the two zeppeliners directly, and they report that the British force is 'casually' sailing about near the Gap, apparently trying to look innocent.
Finally at 13:09 the fleet has edged it's way out of the narrows and onto open water, here you order the speed to be raised to 20 knots, gunning directly at the British opening. Ahead the three battlecruisers speed on.

You edge the fleet through the opening, it is obviously not made for forces like this and is very much too narrow, and at 13:42 the inevitable happens. Helgoland strikes a mine. The damage is insignificant and she can carry on, but the explosion sent her out of course, and when trying to get back into formation she strikes another mine. This time her driveshafts are damaged, and she can't keep up. She is forced to return home.

At 14:27 Derfflinger reports the sight of the British smoke to the southeast. The battlecruisers are preparing their run atthe British force. Only a few minutes later the open fire, the British force had turned to meet them head on more or less. But despite their superior range their didn't open up, for some reason they must have thought your battlecruisers were friendly. Taking advantge that all three battlecruisers can fire on a single ship they wait a while with their turning away, in the hopes of striking a few hits. Then they move back the way they came, but to your horror the British don't follow, instead they move westerly, directly at the opening, where the landingforces should begin to near by now. And because they lack wireless radios, there is no way you can inform them in time.
You order your fleet to abandon the old plan and instead files right at the British. Hopefully you will intercept them before they can get into position. You head almost directly south to cross the British 'T'.

At 14:53 you see the smoke. A nice long line of it. You order the two zeppeliners to move closer to prepare for spotting. By now the time seems to have stopped, the smoke doesn't move, but it gets bigger all the time. Then you see it, the first flashes in the distance and 30 seconds later the water towers up a few hundred meters short. For a few second more there is silence as yet another set of flashes blink. Then the rangefinder officer yells out, "Range: 22,000 meters!" "Open fire!". Now the game is on as both sides begin firing, and because the two forces are now closing on each other on a 90 degree angle you hold no advantage as each ship in line slowly begin to join the firing. But the distance is rapidly decreasing and the firing is becoming more andm ore accurate. At 15:22 you are straddled, but because the zeppeliners are spotting for you, you are already up on your seventh hit on the leading enemy ship. Range is now 16,000 meters.

In the next few minutes the British score their first hits and your ships suffer dreadfully under it, but their returnfire is equally destructive. It has become a sluggingmatch.
At 15:30, when the range is down to 11,000 meters, the British finally begin to realize they can't win and begin a sluggish starboard tack. But instead of following their battleships in a protective screen the British light cruisers and destroyers surge ahead, traling massive smoke to cover the turn, clearly intent on making a massive torpedorun.
You quickly order your own light forces to intercept, and almost at once the two forces rip into each other with their guns, and confusion is added by the secondary guns of the battleships on the both sides.

As the light forces do their deadly dance, you notice that the British battleships aren't doing too well. Several seem to be trailing a lot more smoke than they should be, the damage is showing. But your own Baden has by now also been hit a number of times. Seeing that the captain is doing well directing the fight you slip out back to see for yourself how much damage you have suffered. You begin to climb up into the observationpost a few decks above the bridge.
Looking back at the fleet you see the ships belch fire and smoke in the direction of the enemy, but you also see several impacts, the dull deep flares of penetrations and luckily more often, the sharp fast flashes of shells exploding on the outside. The carnage is not visible, but you can feel it in your soul, men fighting and dying, others fighting fires or tending to wounded. You squint your eyes, then look out at the British ships. The ship beginning it's turn is on fire and listing, but still she fights like a lion, then an impact near the fire, for a few seconds nothing happens. But with a massive flash a great jet of flames lick upwards at the sky, directly from below the fire. The ship seems to carry the flame for an eternity, then she slowly settles the center of her hull, and finally she breaks in half entirely.
Standing up here you get the true feeling of the battle, and as you watch the great enemy ship sink, while the next in line suffers a long succession of hits, a claxon blurts. The alarm for torpedoes! You quickly look towards the light forces and notice barely visible streaks heading for you and other ships. Turn! Turn you old dog! your thoughts are centered on the torpedoes but as they pass without harm you get an odd feeling, you look up. And there! There you see the small dark shape moving across the sky, then it gets bigger... and bigger and witha flash it is past you. A tremendous explosion! You are almost thrown from the platform along with the three spotters, but a strong arm catch your arm and haul you back up. As you say your thanks you smell the heavy smoke of a non-fire hit. You lean over the edge...

The bridge is gone!!! Or rather it has been ripped open and you can't see if anyone are alive in there.
You rush back down and as you enter a damage control team enters and begin to pull out what remains of the dead. The entire bridge is knocked out and all on it are dead. With a grim satisfaction you notice a British light cruiser blow up. But you know you have to transfer to another ship while the crew of Baden get her under control again.

The time it takes you to transfer to Bayern sees the British get away, or rather what is left. Besides the battleship that broke in half, another slowly sank beneath the waves as she tried to get away and a third was reduced to a burning wreck. The light forces however could obviously not contain the British light forces and the result was the sinking of Oldenburg as she was hit by four torpedoes. Her crew was mostly saved, but along with the disabled Baden you feel you have suffered heavy losses.

But now at 17:03 the British are running for all they are worth and you are chasing them, but only the battlecruisers are engaged, and the light is fading.
You go over the losses:
Baden isn't hit too hard, but her command and control is knocked out making her sluggish.
Bayern has suffered a torpedohit, but it hit the torpedoprotection bulge. Gundamage is 12 hits, but of comparably light extention.
König is heavily hit, but still very much able to fight.
Markgraf is hit the most, 18 hits, and has two turrets knocked out.
Prinzregent Luitpold has suffered a hit to her casemate that has caused serious damage below the rear superstructure, even now fires are still gutting it.
Both Grosser Kurfürst and Kaiser has suffered some rather extensive structural damage, but they are still in working order.
Because your line was longer the weaker older ships didn't get much attention and besides a few hits and the sinking of Oldenburg they are in good shape.
The battlecruisers have been quite fortunate, but still Moltke has had two turrets knocked out by a fire in the rear turret that spread to the next.
Other losses amount to two torpedoboats sunk and a light cruiser knocked out. British losses are two light cruisers and an undetermined number of destroyers. Their attention to their torpedorun gave your outnumbered forces a chance to hit them easily.

Now what will happen?

1: Chase the British with all you have got. They are currently running north-northeast, outside your range. This might delay the other operations. Could be risky as the landingforce is at sea and unprotected.
2: Chase the British without the forces needed for the other operations. If the British bring more ships to the fight it could get risky for soem of the more damaged ships.
3: Chase them without the ships delegated to other tasks, but at night perform a torpedorun with the torpedoboats. The British have shown to be fairly bad at spotting at night, but they are still superior in light forces.
4: Scrap the portraid for the moment, and use the Betruger to sneak around and come from the north, pretending to be a lost destroyer (with company of course) from the Furious squadron, then she and a couple torpedoboats will fire their torpedoes and escape.
5A: Let them run. They must be heavily damaged after the attention you gave them. Quite a few of them didn't return fire at the battlecruisers in the end.
5B: Let them run, but shadow them with your fastest light crusiers and torpedoboats.

[Kagemusha]

Ok.It seems our luck havent run out yet.We got the slugfest and the blight is ours. 5B Lets not chase them but Monitor them if they are just trying to lead us against bigger force.

[discovery1]

Hmph. I'm inclinded to scrap the raid and send everything after the Tommies, although.....

What do we have for recon in the direction that the Tommies are fleeing, and what can we get there for recon?

Edit: Most unfortunate about the two out of action BBs.

[Rodion Romanovich]

All these knocked out turrets at first made me worried, and made me think it might be best to retreat now. But then I realize this is perhaps the best chance we've gotten so far at causing really, really bad destruction for the British. Only the Furious-force is close enough to get to their aid today. This means if we catch up with the enemy force there'll be another battle where we'll have the better odds. Also in the pursuit we might catch some damaged battleships lagging behind the others, and further improve the odds before there's another battle. Also, if we found that more enemies are close and we need to retreat west, a pursuing enemy would have the sun in their face, giving us the upper hand, making us able to escape without too much trouble. If night falls and they're still engaging in a pursuit, I'd suggest sending the Betruger around the enemy force and attack it from the rear with torpedo boats. The enemy lost plenty of light forces in the battle we just fought so we should have the upper hand in a night battle with them if they pursue us now, unless they get heavily reinforced by light forces, which is IMO unlikely.

In order for the pursuit to be effective enough, we'll need everything we can get to support it, so I don't think we can afford to send too much to cover the port raiding force. So I think 1 is the way to go. IMO the port raid isn't that important, morale and popularity with the Kaiser is good, but a significant kill-loss ratio improvement is much better! Plus we didn't think we'd be able to evacuate the raiders after the raid anyway. I suppose the enemy will keep their major ships away from the ports after the battle we just fought, trying to reinforce their damaged force. It'll keep the coastline fairly clear, while being too late to be able to join the fight before evening, when we retreat. Because no matter what happens in our pursuit of the enemy, I think we should retreat by approximately 20:00 hours or so (King Kurt can probably do more exact calculations on when it's too dangerous to continue the pursuit) because the hours after that it's likely the enemy might receive more reinforcements than the Furious-force.

[discovery1]

While I think we should persue, I don't like the idea of leaving our raiding force on its own. We can't afford to loose those light ships carrying them. That's why I think it should be scrapped for now.

[Kommodus]

Wait a second - was that option 1B that we chose? Whatever it was, I can't say I'm satisfied with the results of that at all. It's not yet a disaster, but we didn't get the knockout punch we wanted.

We also got our first taste of the Furious, and it's bitter. Our flagship's bridge is knocked out. I clearly underestimated the damage those old WWI planes could do.

It is my judgement that we should focus on the goal of doing as much damage to the retreating British as possible. The whole port-raid thing is only a distraction to us. We must use the little time and resources we have to wear down the actual British fleet in order to give ourselves a chance at achieving our true objective.

My hope is that most of the British fleet is still far away. Surely they are scrambling to help their beleaguered flotilla, but they were at Scapa Flow yesterday and will hopefully take some time to reach the battle.

I would like to do a combination of 2 and 4. The only ships to be spared from the pursuit should be those responsible for escorting the landing force - I wouldn't want to get on the Kaiser's bad side by fouling up the raid. Nevertheless, the port raid should be scrapped, especially if it gives us a chance to launch a surprise attack on the Furious. Such a quick surprise attack may also confuse and slow the British long enough for us to catch up.

[Kraxis]

Ehm... look back a few chapters to a certain dream and you will see why you have an 'odd feeling' prior to the destruction of the bridge.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Ugh, they had to flee didn't they. Why can't the Tommies fight it out like men!!!:wall:

Could we do 1 and 4? Set up the torpedo runs and all of that while continuing to chase them with our main force? If so that's my vote.

[discovery1]

I say 1, hopefully with 4 as well. We need every ship available to pursue the Tommies. Also cancel the landings. We can't risk those torpedo boats.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

A couple of general ideas as to what we should do in the future, things I think we can learn from this.

1) We should not become involved in indecisive slugging matches such as this! Suprise and local superiority will probably often be on our side, but we still need to make sure that the battles we commit to will be decisive. We cannot afford to lose 1 Battleship for minimal gains.

2) The pinning manuever that we attempted was good, it didn't work quite as well as hoped, but it was not wrong in theory. However we could have done better by taking more advantage of suprise. In this battle we lost this edge far too quickly and did not make much of it. I think that the massive opening volley that seemed very likely with option D would have gone very far to accomplishing this, and could have helped to shatter the British fleet before the battle had even begun. This would have greatly decreased the damage to our ships and increased the damage to theirs. Overall we did not play this part badly, but I think it could have been done better.

3) We need to remember our weaknesses, the 5v5 tie that occurred here is a perfect example of us overestimating ourselves. The fact that a night battle strategy won about a third of the votes when we were dangerously low on light forces is quite alarming. The losses we took to the enemy light forces in this battle just prove to underline how lucky we are that the night battle did not win. If it had we would have likely faced an even more devestating torpedo attack.

[Lord Winter]

I think we have to be cautious in two regards. First we should make sure this isn't just a feigned retreat that will lead us into a trap. On the other side of the table there is the fact that to win this war we have to be aggressive. If you look at the battle of Chancellorsville in the US civil war, Hookers chief mistake was stopping his advance on a out numbered, out maneuvered army. If this is a genuine retreat we cant afford to miss this chance. So like every one else i say postpone the landing until tomorrow. Bring our captured destroyer around form the north to disrupt any potential ambushes or at the very least give us a warning. So 1 and 4.

[Peasant Phill]

Hi, I've been following this thread for a long time but it's my first comment.

Firstly I was wondering how much damage those WWI planes can do. Was this a lucky hit or are they this accurate? The only way a bombing could be so accurate at that time was when the 'divebombing' technique was used and I'm not sure this was implemented yet. If it is the case some AA guns should be able to fend those light planes off.
If this was just a lucky hit how much damage can a bomb dropped by a plane do when it hits our decks? It couldn't have been a bomber (correct me if I'm wrong) so the bomb couldn't be really heavy. So a hit couldn't be more disastrous than a hit from an English cannon. In fact the bomb struck the worst possible place on the ship (Turrets are replaceable,good captains not).
All in all the planes from the furious are a menace (not in the least because they make it really hard for us to use our zeppelins) and need to be taken care of in some way.

Secondly, the English have been warned enough (their 'nose' has been 'bloodened' a few times now). This time we have to make the other forum pay for the bad use of their fleet. It'll only take time before they get lucky or we get overconfident and lose our chance at winning the war at sea (one defeat could enough to cripple us for good). No more winning and then retreating just because we're cautious. We won't be able to cut off France if we destroy the RN ship by ship. The raid can wait.

Thirdly I agree with Kenshin. We to be effective while minimising the risk we should use surprise and local superiority as much as possible. Lets hope that the other forum doesn't have a surprise for us to.

[Kagemusha]

Why i voted 5B,was that we now have the bligh and our light forces can monitor the moves of the English.Our Mainforce should stay put except maybe the most baddly hurted ships,meanwhile we get our reinforcements to join the fleet and give English a challenge to come to us on our terms.

[Flavius Clemens]

From the initial British reaction to our battlecruisers, evidently they were expecting reinforcements. Was this just the Furious task force, or something heavier? This morning the Zeppelin sighted 24 large ships in Scapa Flow, which added to the forces we have faced today, we think accounts for most if not all of the enemy's capital ships. Having done a quick check here http://www.export911.com/convert/distaCaIc.htm, the distance from Scapa Flow to the Bight is in the order of 500 nautical miles. By my reckoning that means even fast battlecruisers can't have got from there to be in fighting range of us within the next couple of hours, so if the British are trying to lure us into a trap it seems it isn't against a significant capital force. Maybe they do have one or two large ships out there that we haven't accounted for.

So, we still outnumber them, some of our ships - admittedly the older ones - are still relatively fresh, and we have faced down the main torpedo attack from the light forces.

Given this, I think we need to press the fight while there's still daylight. Three enemy ships sunk is good, but to gain enough long term advantage we need to sink more. And I fear if we don't take out more, then because of our correct caution in earlier battles, our reputation will be of never seeing battles through to a conclusion and we will loose influence.

I don't want to risk the loss of the torpedoboats designated to attack Hartlepool, as you have said that with their load they will be sluggish, and we can't afford to lose more light forces, so I'd say send a couple of ships to protect them (I guess it would be better for this to be a couple of battleships while the battlecruisers use their speed to keep chasing the RN forces). Forget the Dover attack and use those forces in the chase. So this is I think half way between 1 and 2. (Whether or not we go through with the Hartlepool raid is another matter, depending on how well the rest of the battle pans out.) Then at night try option 4 - we need to use Betruger sooner rather than later or it won't have the up to date codes.

And based on the problems we had getting out of the gap, it seems that when it is all over we should aim to return to base through our own eastern gap for safety rather than risk the route through the nearer opening.

[Flavius Clemens]

Also, a quote from the dream Kraxis mentions above,

"...As you look up you notice a tiny shape moving... It streaks across the sky, slowing down and getting larger, around it you see several other shapes, all moving in unison... Moving right at you! You gasp as you realize what they are, GUNSHELLS!" (posted on 20/02/06)

so I think he's hinting that the hit on the bridge was a poetic way of describing an incoming shell rather than an air attack.

PS Welcome to the fleet, Peasant Phil!

[Kraxis]

Also, a quote from the dream Kraxis mentions above,

"...As you look up you notice a tiny shape moving... It streaks across the sky, slowing down and getting larger, around it you see several other shapes, all moving in unison... Moving right at you! You gasp as you realize what they are, GUNSHELLS!" (posted on 20/02/06)

so I think he's hinting that the hit on the bridge was a poetic way of describing an incoming shell rather than an air attack.
Bravo!

[Ludens]

I agree with Flavius Clemens: we cannot afford to waste this opportunity to sink more British ships. On the other hand, if we send in the Hartlepool raid in unsupported they will be butchered by the light cruisers stationed along the British coast.

The battlecruisers are essential for the chase, do not send them away. Instead, is it possible to detach some of our damaged ships or perhaps the ships we had to leave behind to the Hartlepool force? Otherwise, it should be cancelled or at least postphoned until we have caught the British. To be honest, I'd rather cancel it entirely until we can give it optimal support. Also, I would cancel the Dover raid (I was somehow under the impression that the choices at C would not detract from our forces, obviously I was wrong or I would have argued that we should do nothing).

[Rodion Romanovich]

Could we really call the raiding force back (didn't they lack wireless etc.)? If so, I fully support withdrawal of the landing force, and if possible send the torpedo boats to join the main battle, maybe even joining the force coming from another direction with the Betruger :evil:

[Kraxis]

True, they don't have wireless, but they have also been instructed not to go forth without escort. They are currently sitting near the opening in the minefield (remember where the British were going until you forced them back).

If you want I offer you to send Kaiser and König.

[discovery1]

Those are ships still in port right? Send them instead, please.

[Kraxis]

No... They are two of the more damaged but still capable ships. As per Ludens' request.

The three ships that couldn't join you right away will arrive during the night, hopefully.

I have made a few maps of the battle.
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1481/initial8de.th.jpg (https://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=initial8de.jpg)
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3407/turning4jn.th.jpg (https://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turning4jn.jpg)
https://img352.imageshack.us/img352/1094/escape6zr.th.jpg (https://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=escape6zr.jpg)

I hope they make it clear how it looks. Of course the sizes and ranges are not to scale. The British are still out of range andthe battlecruisers were only just in range.

[AntiochusIII]

First of all, it is not Furious' planes that hit us, but a lucky gunshot from one of the enemy's bigger ships. Hence, we have no assessment of the danger it possess, yet.

In fact, I am not so much concerned about WWI planes sinking AA-armed ships as much as them slaughtering our vital Zeppelins, hence the caution wherever Furious goes.

Now...

1 and 4 combined, if impossible, just 1B. Enough of this half-hearted damages on enemy ships. We have the burden of proof--in debate terms--to wipe the RN off the Channel. Hunt them with all you've got, while striking from the other direction to both slow them down and cause extra damage. The port raid means nothing compare to a chance to sink the entire flotilla.

Also, let the Zeppelins on full operation to make sure no surprises will get us while we hunt. Avoid entering Furious' range, however.

About the Hartlepool raid...well, I'd like to cancel them if possible. If not, let Kaiser and König go. Of course, with orders to disengage at the first sign of serious resistance, as per the old orders Kraxis had outlined. Who cares what the Kaiser thinks, if what we do would cost precious vital ships? Besides, the Admirality's gripe would be over if we get some real damage done, and we'd have some excuses for the Kaiser for sinking real battleships instead of a useless, prestige-hunting raid. We can do that later and make an even bigger bang.

[Kommodus]

Well, I see I was mistaken about the thing that hit the Baden's bridge. For some reason I thought it was a plane on a bombing run, but it turns out it was just shells. That's actually a bit of a relief to me.

It seems most of us are in general agreement on this choice. Pursue them hard, and call off the port raid in favor of doing a surprise attack on the retreating British.

The only thing I differ on is that I think we can spare a couple of ships to escort the landing force to Hartelpool (sp). Granted, this is more of a political decision than a tactical one - the Kaiser would love to hear that we not only won a naval battle, but simultaneously landed troops in Britain. Tactically, I would much rather postpone the landing raid and use all our ships in the pursuit. That's why I picked 2 and 4 instead of the popular 1 and 4 - although both seem good. If 1 and 4 is the ultimate choice, we should at least postpone the landing until we can give it a proper escort (which is what you guys probably intend).

The truth is, the fact that we tried to rush the landing raid was (in part) our downfall in the last episode. We were forced to scrap the original plan, and instead sailed due south to prevent the British from destroying our troop-carrying ships. As a result, we failed to trap the British against the minefields.

One thing still puzzles me - I don't understand why the British sailed straight for the gap when we attacked. Did they really mean to go inside the minefields? If so, what would they have done once inside - attack the base itself? Or perhaps they somehow knew about our landing raid?

Anyway, I'm glad most of us understand the necessity of being aggressive here. We have won back the Bight - who cares, that won't help us cut the channel. We need to keep our eyes on the goal.

[King Kurt]

First we should reckon up - we have several damaged ships, but currently none which are terminal. The English have a lot of severely damaged ships - to quote Kraxis the battlecruisers were hardly being fired at. Also we have sunk 2 - that leaves 9 - possibly all severly damaged. We gain nothing by sinking a few more, but risk furthur damage to our forces if we pursue, especially as it is near to dark - 1 lucky torpedo could wipe out our gains. we must remember that for our purposes, a badly damaged ship is as good as sinking it - better in some ways, their dockyards must be full of ships being repaired. I believe we should shadow with some light forces and make the Betruger attack by looping round. Keep some pressure on and it would take attention away from the raid. But the main fleet should return to port for repair.
I think we should continue with the Hartlepool raid as planned - i.e. supported by the battle cruisers. They will cross the North sea undercover of darkness and strike near dawn. Our ships should look to withdraw as soon as possible - possibly leaving the fast colliers as an escape route for the troops - the English eyes will be on the fleet action so we will have an element of surprise.
Finally - Furious - I believe this force has no capital ships with it - 11 capital ships in the bight, 20 in Scarpa ( but some were making smoke, possibly to follow behind the force) and a few in dry dock - so the numbers suggest no capital ships. With luck our retreating battlecruisers and torpedo boats might intercept that force and inflict some damage.:2thumbsup:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hm, are you suggesting that the force containing the Furious would be south or southwest of our current position? I got the impression that it was north, northwest or northeast of the retreating enemy force, which means we won't intercept it by retreating.

[AggonyDuck]

I suggest we chase them with all we got. I believe we can seriously disrupt the balance of force between us and the Brits in this engagement. We need to capitalize on this chance. We're facing several damaged ships that are a long distance from friendly ports and that still have an arduous journey of crossing the North Sea. We still have a chance of catching more ships and sending them to the bottom off the sea. Especially some might be taking in water and losing speed thanks to this, which will make them good targets to our heavy forces. So I think we can continue chasing until our Zeppelins spot their reinforcements, that is those battleships coming down from Scapa. Then we should pull back.

Also I'd delay the Hartlepool/Dover raids with a day to finish capitalising on this victory. So I'll go with an all out nr. 1, although I'd feel like pulling back some of the heavily damaged ships back to port. Also it is of high importance that we don't bumb into their reinforcements.

[Ludens]

First we should reckon up - we have several damaged ships, but currently none which are terminal. The English have a lot of severely damaged ships - to quote Kraxis the battlecruisers were hardly being fired at. Also we have sunk 2 - that leaves 9 - possibly all severly damaged. We gain nothing by sinking a few more, but risk furthur damage to our forces if we pursue, especially as it is near to dark - 1 lucky torpedo could wipe out our gains. we must remember that for our purposes, a badly damaged ship is as good as sinking it - better in some ways, their dockyards must be full of ships being repaired.
I disagree. We gain political prestige for each ship sunk as opposed to damaged, and also certainty that it is wiped out. Just because the last ships of their line are unable to return much fire does not mean that every British ship is heavily damaged.

That said, perhaps you are right that we should not risk a night fight. Perhaps we should pursue until sunset and then implement option four. There are more important things to do than raiding Dover anyway, and the force would be much more useful with us.


One thing still puzzles me - I don't understand why the British sailed straight for the gap when we attacked. Did they really mean to go inside the minefields? If so, what would they have done once inside - attack the base itself? Or perhaps they somehow knew about our landing raid?
Quite possible: they do have superior intelligence and the presence of regular forces in a marine basis can hardly have gone unnoticed.

Sending Köning and Kaiser with the Hartlepool force sounds viable, though I wonder if they won't slow it down. That said, I think that Wilhelm will like it if his force is guarded by a ship named after him ~D .

[Kommodus]

I disagree. We gain political prestige for each ship sunk as opposed to damaged, and also certainty that it is wiped out. Just because the last ships of their line are unable to return much fire does not mean that every British ship is heavily damaged.

I'm with Ludens on this one. In the first major battle we severely damaged several capital ships, but from what we can gather, they are all either fully repaired or close to it. It takes more time and resources to build an all-new ship than to repair a damaged one. If we let the British force escape this time, those "out of action" ships might come storming down on us at a critical moment when our fleet is in the channel months from now. Besides the two sunk BBs and one that's been reduced to a flaming wreck, we don't really have any idea how much damage we've done.

I just hope we have the speed to catch them quickly. It's true that we can't pursue indefinitely - once our recon gets wind of heavy reinforcements from Scapa Flow, we will have to turn back.

[Flavius Clemens]

I'll firm up my vote for the modified option 1, which sends the two battleships to rendezvous with the Hartlepool force and keeps the rest in the pursuit of the British. (At this stage I'm not so much concerned with making sure the Hartlepool attack goes ahead as not leaving the heavily loaded torpedoboats alone and relatively vulnerable. In their own way the light forces are proving as essential to the battles now as the capital ships.)

I want to push the persuit while we still have light, and then review next steps, but with an expectation we try option 4 after nightfall.

My main concern is that looking at the third map, the chase will take us past the light forces engagement. If the British still have torpedoes left this is a risk. If we have enough ammo and aren't risking friendly fire hits on our own ships, using our main armament to rough up the British destroyers from long range as we pass would be sensible.

Kraxis, which way are the 3 reinforcing ships coming? Having had one ship mined in daylight I'm not too keen on them trying to come through the same gap at night.

[Franconicus]

Let me sumarize:

We hit the Tommies hard and they are retreating. The main goal is achieved, the bay is ours again. However, we had casualties, too and most of the RN could retreat. Furthermore the Furious is coming.

Shall we chase the Brits? They have a lot of damaged ships and we could make the victory complete. However, war is almost over and a damaged ship may be as good as a sunken ship. If we sink more ships, there would be a propaganda effect. However, this would distract us from our main goal, our big strike. So far I agree with Kurt.

But there is still the Furious. No idea how good she really is; I think we have a chance to catch that boat. If we keep on pressing on the damaged battleships the RN will probably send the Furious to help them. Even then we should be superior in nimbers and able to defeat the Furious and her support. Then the sea would be open for our strike.

So I vote for chasing the RN with all we 've got.

My questions is: If we do so can we do the big strike right afterwards or do we ahve to return to our home base first? If we can go on, all sidestream operations should go on. The Brits will soon have more fronts than ships. :laugh4: If the big ships have to return, we should stop all sidestream activities at once. Timing is most important!!


1: Chase the British with all you have got. They are currently running north-northeast, outside your range. This might delay the other operations. Could be risky as the landingforce is at sea and unprotected.

[King Kurt]

To restate my case - the critical time is over the next few weeks, not months, so a badly damaged ship is as good as a sunk one. The only reason to pursue and sink is political - but the Hartlepool raid will give us all the political capital we need. If we pursue, we risk furthur damage, especially from the light forces.Also we are out of range and I doubt our damaged ships could close the gap quick enough before dark.
We should not send the battleships to support the Hartlepool raid - they are damaged and are too slow. We must use the battlecruisers - virtually undamaged and a lot quicker. The raid will also make the British spread their forces more to cover their ports due to the political fall out.
I believe the Furious is escorted by a few light forces - it was coming to join the ships in the Bight probably to spot for them, drive off our Zeps and possibly bomb our single Zep mast. I think our Battle cruisers and torpedo boats could intercept on the return from Hartlepool and do some damage.:2thumbsup:

[King Kurt]

I have just been through the thread since the begining - helps kill a boring lunch time! - we began the campaign with 24 capital ships to the English's 42.
I make the current score for us to be about 18 - possibly 20 depending on when ships will be back - Kraxis an accurate picture would be nice. The English is more guesswork, but we know we have sunk 5 and I reckon we have seriously damaged 14 (I guessed 6 seriously damaged in the last action) Our recon says 1 is back soon at Scarpa - so that makes them at about24 to 26 capital ships.

This shows 2 things -
1) Our hit and retreat attritional policy is working well - we are getting close to parity.
2) I am now convinced that Furious has no capital ships with her - it would be great to hunt her down - the English like their gimmicks and to sink their lynchpin would be great.

One other thing - there seems to be an undercurrent of the English trying to get inside the minefields - do we need to think of a strategm for this? My idea would be using a pre-drednaught as a guard ship - her guns would deter any light forces and she would act as advance warning of any attack. We saw the advantage a big ship adds to light forces engaging with the sinking of the Glorious - just a thought:2thumbsup:

[Kraxis]

The latecomers will go out the British hole, but they are not risking too much since they are few and can spread out nicely. That was impossible for your battlefleet.

The British light forces are guarding the retreat, just like they should in a situation like this. They will move along with their big boats and you don't really risk sailing into the light forces' battle, as it too will move.

The two battleships aren't going to slow down the landingforce very much. They can sail 22 knots on a good day, while the torpedoboats can manage 28 knots. But remember if the sea is a bit choppy the torpedoboats might not be able to sail that fast. And just liek the British destroyers the torpedoboats are not totally reliable, so running at flank speed is quite unhealthy for them unless it is imperative. Not to forget that they have soldiers onboard who would soon get quite seasick (and thus not good for much when they land) at high speeds and the two colliers can't manage more than 16 knots anyway.

King Kurt, good going. But intelligence can be wrong, and the British also make good use of their dockyards, much like you do. Of course it is no surprise that they in general suffered more damage in the first battle, but in this last one you are not certain about how much it is really, their best ships managed to turn early and thus might not have been beaten to a pulp. These ships were some of the strongest out there, and you did notice a whole lot of sharp flashes from the British line, indicating non-penetrative hits.

[King Kurt]

The latecomers will go out the British hole, but they are not risking too much since they are few and can spread out nicely. That was impossible for your battlefleet.

The British light forces are guarding the retreat, just like they should in a situation like this. They will move along with their big boats and you don't really risk sailing into the light forces' battle, as it too will move.

The two battleships aren't going to slow down the landingforce very much. They can sail 22 knots on a good day, while the torpedoboats can manage 28 knots. But remember if the sea is a bit choppy the torpedoboats might not be able to sail that fast. And just liek the British destroyers the torpedoboats are not totally reliable, so running at flank speed is quite unhealthy for them unless it is imperative. Not to forget that they have soldiers onboard who would soon get quite seasick (and thus not good for much when they land) at high speeds and the two colliers can't manage more than 16 knots anyway.

King Kurt, good going. But intelligence can be wrong, and the British also make good use of their dockyards, much like you do. Of course it is no surprise that they in general suffered more damage in the first battle, but in this last one you are not certain about how much it is really, their best ships managed to turn early and thus might not have been beaten to a pulp. These ships were some of the strongest out there, and you did notice a whole lot of sharp flashes from the British line, indicating non-penetrative hits.
I still prefere to use the battlecruisers as they are more suited for catching Furious or escaping capital ships - 12 battleships making steam at Scarpa when we reconed.
Your guarded comments about non penertrative hits suggest that these may be the elusive QE class battleships or possible the R class. Hopefully when this is all over we can have a full story of what actually happened!!:2thumbsup:

[AggonyDuck]

I make the current score for us to be about 18 - possibly 20 depending on when ships will be back - Kraxis an accurate picture would be nice. The English is more guesswork, but we know we have sunk 5 and I reckon we have seriously damaged 14 (I guessed 6 seriously damaged in the last action) Our recon says 1 is back soon at Scarpa - so that makes them at about24 to 26 capital ships.



While we may have damaged those ships, they will still be coming back. So within a couple of months the parity will again be in big favour for the brits. We want to sink as many capital ships as we can, because the Grand Fleet is Britain. I don't believe these following weeks are critical for us directly, simply because we've already taken damage with several ships, which signicantly reduce our fighting numbers for continued sorties.

On the other hand this sort of damging attritional policy would work if we could mix with it strikes to reduce the drydock capabilities, which we hardly can. :no:

Also catching Furious might be harder than we think. Remember that Furious is originally a light battlecruiser with quite decent speed.

[Ludens]

I am feeling argumentative today.


But there is still the Furious. No idea how good she really is; I think we have a chance to catch that boat. If we keep on pressing on the damaged battleships the RN will probably send the Furious to help them. Even then we should be superior in nimbers and able to defeat the Furious and her support. Then the sea would be open for our strike.

So I vote for chasing the RN with all we 've got.

My questions is: If we do so can we do the big strike right afterwards or do we ahve to return to our home base first? If we can go on, all sidestream operations should go on. The Brits will soon have more fronts than ships. If the big ships have to return, we should stop all sidestream activities at once. Timing is most important!!


1: Chase the British with all you have got. They are currently running north-northeast, outside your range. This might delay the other operations. Could be risky as the landingforce is at sea and unprotected.
Interesting points. Still, option 1 isn't the way to go. Don't be fooled by Kraxis' wording: the heavily-laden torpedoboats of the Hartlepool force will be butched by light cruisers stationed along the British coast. We have to send some support or call off the operation.

However, Furious is indeed a good target, so let's hope the British admiralty indeed is stupid enough to send it to the aid of Evan-Thomas. However, this may be too much to hope for. Kraxis, do we have any idea where the Furious is now? What are our zeppelins doing?

On a related note, given that the Furious should have arrived at the minefield somewhere at dusk, and given that the British are moving towards her they may rendez-vous before the night falls. In that case, the deception in option 4 will go awry because the captain of the Furious will realize that Betruger is not one of theirs. Perhaps we should leave the deception-part and just make it a straight-forward night-attack. We can always use the Betruger later.


To restate my case - the critical time is over the next few weeks, not months, so a badly damaged ship is as good as a sunk one. The only reason to pursue and sink is political - but the Hartlepool raid will give us all the political capital we need. If we pursue, we risk furthur damage, especially from the light forces.Also we are out of range and I doubt our damaged ships could close the gap quick enough before dark.
We should not send the battleships to support the Hartlepool raid - they are damaged and are too slow. We must use the battlecruisers - virtually undamaged and a lot quicker. The raid will also make the British spread their forces more to cover their ports due to the political fall out.
I believe the Furious is escorted by a few light forces - it was coming to join the ships in the Bight probably to spot for them, drive off our Zeps and possibly bomb our single Zep mast. I think our Battle cruisers and torpedo boats could intercept on the return from Hartlepool and do some damage.
King Kurt, no disrespect meant but I think you are way overoptimistic. I can't believe that we have damaged all British ships while suffering so little ourselves. If you ask me, and Kraxis' comment supports this, we've only hit one side of their battleline, and even then it is questionable if these ships are really as severly damaged as you conclude. Ergo, sinking them is still worthwile. I also don't think that our battlecruisers can hop to Hartlepool and then catch Furious on their way back.

[Kraxis]

They followed you closely to spot for you. Given how close you are still to an engagement they have not left. Besides, while they can still help out at night, they will have a very hard time spotting enemy ships during night. They have to practically fly right over them.

I never said the Furious would arrive at dusk, I said "late night". And not exactly at the minefield, but rather at the British forward force, which wasn't nestled up against the mines, but rather in a 'secure' position some way out.

[King Kurt]

It seems to me that our principle strategic aim is to create a short term advantage for us to undertake support operations for the Spring offensive which is due any day now. The feedback from intellegence and our recon is that many of the English damaged ships are still some way away from being servicable. The damage we have taken in the last battle is significant, but currently many of those ships could be used soon. Of the 11 English ships we engaged we sunk 3 and we have obviously damaged several more quite badly - Kraxis talks of their inability to return fire. that is the basis of my tot up on numbers. I believe that the numbers are now more even as we can always keep our fleet together whereas there are pressures on the english to have ships in several places - a raid on Hartlepool will assist that.
In the end to pursue or not pursue is a risk analysis. I believe that if we pursue we may sink a couple of more ships - but the ones we will catch are already badly damaged and would not be a factor for several months anyway. weighed against that is an other attack by their light forces causing furthur damage to us.
As for the Furious, I think the only ships likely to catch her are our battlecruisers returning from Hartlepool - but that would depend on the task force continuing south - I would expect the english to recall her to scarpa after the battle which has occured - mind you with their gung-ho attitude they may continue sailing south!!:2thumbsup:

[Franconicus]

As always I agree with the King.:thrasher:

We should never forget that the strategic goaol is neither to sink as many ships as possible nor to defeat the Royal Navy. The goal is to support the spring operations in France.

I think we are very good prepared. After the note of Kurt I think it is clear that it is unlikely that we will catch the Furious and that it is not improtant. In the Channel the Brits will not need a carrier. So lets us concentrate on our main goal.

My question is: can we start right now or do we have to repair some ships? If possible I would strike right now. Now we have some advantage over the RN, we will loose it if we wait. Moreover I am sure that the Tommies will be upset to see us attack. :laugh4:

[Rodion Romanovich]

That's why I think we should break off after a few hours, but still attempt to catch a few of them if we can, before retreating. Sunk is better than damaged, even if damaged is usually enough we could have underestimated the damage done. Remember that almost all of our own ships will soon be back in action from what I've understood - the same could be the case for most of their damaged ships.

[Flavius Clemens]

their best ships managed to turn early and thus might not have been beaten to a pulp. These ships were some of the strongest out there, and you did notice a whole lot of sharp flashes from the British line, indicating non-penetrative hits.

This does put a slightly different perspective on the chase, especially as Baden, one of the ships that equals the British best, is 'sluggish'. However, if the best British ships aren't heavily damaged, they'll be back all too soon with reinforcements to bottle us up again, so I think it's still in our interests to press the persuit and therefore I stick with my vote for the modified option 1. However, it does make me think that rather than following with option 4 after nightfall it would be better to apply the option 3 mass torpedo run, as there may well be more targets still afloat than I first hoped.

Depending on how things pan out, we might be able to send the battlecruisers on a hunt for Furious

[discovery1]

We will almost certainly need to interfere with the front for longer than a week. I would suspect that the Allies currently have enough supplies on the continent to allow them to keep fighting at peak effeciency long enough for the hurt British ships to come back into the fight. And then we will be thown back on land and the sea. No, we must line the North Sea with these ships now, so that they will not cost us victory in a month.

[Ludens]

In the end to pursue or not pursue is a risk analysis. I believe that if we pursue we may sink a couple of more ships - but the ones we will catch are already badly damaged and would not be a factor for several months anyway. weighed against that is an other attack by their light forces causing furthur damage to us.
I agree insofar that I want to keep pursuing until dusk and then execute option 3, but I don't see a reason to let the British of the hook until then. Also, I think our best chance to catch Furious will be with our battlecruisers at sea, not off to Hartlepool, so we should detach a few other ships to do that particular job. Since mobility is less of an issue here, Kaiser and König assisted by a few light cruisers might do just as well.

Still, I think the port raid ought to be canceled: we already are short on light ships so lets not spread them out on secondary objectives.

Kraxis, sorry: because the Furious would join the British fleet before our night-attack I assumed it would arrive early night. All I wanted to make clear is that the deception at option four might go wrong if the Furious linked up with the fleet before Betruger went in.

[Kraxis]

Nightly Attention

As the darkness falls finally the battlecruisers give up the attacks. Even they can't see where they are hitting now. They turn back towards you with Hindenburg and Derfflinger breaking formation to meet up with the landingforce. As they approach you quickly think it over. No, they shold join you instead and help hunt down the British forces. At once the order is carried out.

While the bridgecrew of Bayern isn't too experienced with having admirals along for the ride, they are welltrained and disciplined. But their lack of experience with this kind of command sometimes leaves them slightly confused, and their normal rutines are also somewhat interrupted by your presence. It didn't take long before you felt you were in the way.
Now that risks are low you walk out onto the bridgewing to let the crew handle their jobs.

In the dim light you make out Karlsruhe and Nürnberg speeding to catch up with you after they dealt with the crippled British battleship. They report that at first it fired at them with it's secondary guns, but soon it gave up and the crew loaded onto it's boats. It was sunk by a salvo of four torpedoes. The two light cruisers picked up 228 men from the sea, but left the boats after providing them with water and food, and requesting a pickup from any available ships in the area. A squadron of minesweepers has answered the call.
The prisoners have been locked up securely, and it has been learned from a British spotter which ships were sunk today. This last ship was the Canada, the one that broke in half was the impossible Agincourt with it's 14 12 inch guns and the one that slowly ran itself under the waves was the Erin. All three ships, you know, were actually ordered for other countries but kept when the war broke out. In general their armour was lighter (not even comparable to your own battlecruisers) but their speed was higher, perhpas this was the reason that it was them that got sunk.

You press your ships to give their all. While the QE class can easily outrun your ships the R class ships are more similar to your own, and with damage to most of them if not all, the speed can't be the best. Finally Baden manages to set up a secondary bridge and a semblance of control returns to her. But her command and control is still restricted as the new bridgecrew is made up of sailors unknown to this position. The acting captain is the senior rangefinder officer.
You order her to fall into line behind Posen. Perhaps her strength will help to keep that end of the line secure. Meanwhile Prinzregent Luitpold can't keep up and withdraws from the line, seeking back towards the landingforce.

As the hours pass you feel it is time to do something. Betruger has so far been hidden behind your line, but if you want to have a chance at hitting the British line with deception it has to be now before any reinforcements meet up with them. You order her and three torpedoboats to race north and then come down towards the British line acting as British reinforcements., when in position they will unload their torpedoes, hopefully hitting the British battleships. After sending them off the pickets report that the British have turned onto a northwesterly direction, clearly seeking to throw you off and escape home. This gives the Betruger a chance to meet up with the British faster, expected to now meet up with them at around 2100.
At 2117 spotters notice gunflashes to your north. It is impossible to determine the reason or the direction of the fire, but the range is fairly close. Within a handful of hours you should be able to engage the British force once more, even if the torpedoatack has failed.

Soon after those flashes, a spotter reports similar gunflashes to the southwest, but they soon subside. You wonder what that could be. Prinzregent Luitpold reports seeing it too, and she is herding the landingforce away from the hole. Seydlitz alone to your south is speedign at flank speed to catch up. She reports seeing two destinct sets of heavy guns, but she is in mood to check it out alone. Westfalen can't make it out as her driveshafts suffered damage when she attempted to rev up. She will need a more extensive workover. And Kaiser obviously managed to catch up with the battlefleet prior to the first battle.
Within the hour the Betruger comes back, but she has only got one torpedoboat with her. She quickly reports that they managed to sneak in and fool the British pickets. The first battleship was however quite inquisitive and the torpedoes were launched prior to perfect setup, yet hits were seen on three battleships and a light cruisers that got in the way. By the time the first hits were recorded they were already on their way out, but the last two torpedoboats got bathed in the lights of the pickets and the British battleships quickly crushed them.
The captain of the Betruger does not expect any sinkings either than the light cruiser perhaps, but since some of the hits were scored in the aft sections a lower speed should be expected.

At 2335 your pickets begin to be able to make out the British ships, and the zeppeliners are ready to spot for you. Once more you let the battlecruisers, now numbering four, speed ahead and try to engage from the other side, forcing the British to select one of two potential targets.
At 2343 Bayern's forward turrets opens up. The British respond by turning to present a line of broadsides. This very same minute Prinzregent Luitpold reports being engaged by two enemy heavies. The landingforce is being attacked by a number of lights and is fighting back, but the British secondary guns are also firing at them.

You can't help them now, but order them to scatter in the hope they might escape. Meanwhile you and the British are once more trading shots. Because of the night accuracy is low, but you can see with your naked eye that three of the British ships are listing to port, supposedly the results of Betruger's attack. You concentrate on these ships, and you begin your own turn of the line. For minutes the two lines are engaged but in a less than perfect position to deal out damage, but you do notice a single very heavy gun firing once in a while off to the side of the British line.
Prinzregent Luitpold reports the she is being overpowered and will not win this engagement. She has noticed that several of her shells simply bounce off the enemy, of course the same is happeneing back to her, but with such a superior amount of fire she is getting pounded to death. At least the torpedoboats are getting away. The enemy destroyers are chasing a single undamaged one while three others are reduced to a crawl.

You fume at the report. You feel wholly impotent at this. Finally you express your displeasure at this reverse. "GIVE THEM ALL YOU HAVE!!!" "Herr Admiral, we are already firing everything." "No! Fire the torpedoes of our battleships!"
With every battleship you have, equipped with torpedoes it should be quite a launch, and with the range relatively low you might get some results from this. But in general battleship torpedoes are considered useless, thus your order is clearly taken as a measure of desperation and anger.
The torpedoes are released and you redouble the effort to take down the British ships, but such battles are lengthy and orders take time to give effect. Finally both lines are parallel and the battle erupts into it's full fury. At 0050 Prinzregent Luitpold sends her final message.
"Taking on water uncontrolled. Serious fire in the rear. All turrets out. Secondary guns still firing. Heavy losses. Bridge knocked out. Engines out. Three torpedoboats sunk, last boat to be captured. Says she will counterboard with infantry. Enemy ships both damaged.
For Kaiser Wilhelm and Germany!"
That was the end of a proud battleship, one of the strong Kaiser class. But you are at least happy that the infantry are willing to fight even impossible battles. You only wish to know what happened with them; did they win? Or were they cut down as they tried to board the British destroyers.

You are brought out of your thoughts as a spotter yells down the line. "DESTROYER CHARGE!!!" You look out, and yes, you can just make out the small dark shapes coming at you. You turn around and give out the orders for the light forces to intercept, but once more they are outnumbered and the British forces manages to get into range. You are forced to evade. But during the turn you remember that these ships have already used their torpedoes in the first attack and order the line back into position. But too late. The British have already turned away from the battle, but you can clearly see two ships lagging behind. This is you best chance and you concentrate on them, then at 0147 one of them begin to pour out smoke, so that her consort becoems obscured, while coming over into a heavy starboardside turn. This gives her a chance to let all her guns fire at you while you can't respond with more than your forward turrets of Bayern, but with the distance closing fast you will be past her and be able to give her a piece of attention from each ship in line.
But it doesn't come to that. Your forward turrets are enough and her heavy list becomes too much for her own guns and they can't track you anymore.

You keep pounding the defenceless ship as you near it, but finally with lights she communicates her surrender and requests that you pick up her survivors. You are compelled to comply, sending over Posen and Nassau.
When you pass her you can't make out her consort, whil it is clear that the British line has once more gotten enough distance to you, to keep out of effective range, and with deminishing stocks of ammo you can't just fire at them. You keep following their exhaust showing small red embers in the air. Perhaps you can catch them in the morning.
Meanwhile Posen and Nassau has completed their rescue of the British sailors, in all 738. They have learned it was the QE class battleship Barham.
As the battle is winding down again you take stock as to what has happened.
Prinzregent Luitpold has been sunk by two enemy battleships, strong ones too, near the hole. And the landingforce has lost four torpedoboats. But luckily not the two coaltenders with the cavalry. That is an estimated 270 soldiers lost.
Bayern got a lot of attention in the battle, but her armour held up nicely. Of the 10 hits only 4 penetrated her armour for limited damage save the destruction of the aft rangefinder.
Markgraf has luckily been spared the many hits of the evening, but still she has lost a turret.
Similar damage to Grosser Kurfürst.
Kaiser suffered only a single hit this night, but she still has some extensive structural damage.
König has also suffered slight damage this time, save the torpedo she took in the last attack.
Kronprinz Wilhelm on the other hand was unlucky in that she was hit by a full broadside from a British battleship, 8 hits in one go. Toppled both her funnels, knocked out her 'Q' (central) turret and set a nasty fire in the casemate of the secondary armament below the 'Q' turret. Link to her. (http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/battleship/konig-line.gif)
The rest of the battleships have suffered negliable damage.
Moltke was unlucky once more and she took a another damaging hit that took out another turret, leaving her with her two offset centerline turrets.
Hindenburg, leading the battlecrusiers got a substantial amount of attention and got hit not less than 12 times, with four important hits. One knocking out her superfiring rear turret. And three hits to her central casemate, collapsing both the rear funnel and the crane.
The other two battlecruisers were only hit by light guns and shrapnell.
Besides the battleships you have lost another light cruiser, the Graudenz and a torpedoboat. And since the light cruiser Strassburg is knocked out and under tow back to Cuxhaven (she just barely managed to evade the two British heavies ravaging your rear), you are down to seven light cruisers and 15 torpedoboats.
And you have also learned that the first gunflashes from the two British heavies was because they found the minesweepers that had collected the British survivors of Canada. The British heavies accidentally killed most of the survivors and sank seven of the ten minesweepers before collecting the remaining survivors.

What will happen now?

1) The battleforces
A: Continue to pursue the British. When first light breaks you should get enough accuracy to finish them off. When/if substantial British reinforcements arrive you will break off.
B: Stop pursuing the British. You have sunk four good batleships, that is a good tally, but your own ships are damaged and weakened. It wouldn't be good to risk getting involved in a running battle with fresh British forces.
C: Break off the chase and begin to search for the two heavies that mangled your rear.
D: The same but hunt down the single battleship that broke off during the night.

2) The zeppeliners
A: Keep them attached to your forces. Trust that your and their AA guns will be enough to protect them from seaplane attacks.
B: Return them home, Furious is bound to make her presence felt soon.
C: Send them off to find the rogue British ships. Perhaps it will also keep them clear of any intervention from Furious.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Wow! Seems like we did comparatively well for a night engagement. I remember wanting to break off before nightfall but all in all I think the way it turned out was probably for the best. Apart from the casualty ratios, the British should be quite shocked - in less than 24 hours their forwardly positioned force of 11 battleships is driven back after a disastrous battle, then much of the retreating force is intercepted and broken. If only we make it back home so we can repair the lighter damages, and safely put our heavily damaged ships away in dry docks, this operation will be a success.

1B - if the ships or the zeppeliners run into some of the enemies to the rear mentioned in C and D, possibly divert a part of the force to engage them/it, otherwise just retreat full speed. Afaik the time is around 2 AM, so we should probably get back far enough before sunrise.

2A and C combined - keep one or two near our ships in order to get a forewarning when/if enemies are coming, but send the rest to look after the British ships mentioned in 2C and 2D. If we see any British fighters, try to get most zeppeliners to retreat, we can't afford to lose them.

By the way, Kraxis, were those accidentally sunk minesweepers German or British?

[AggonyDuck]

1C and 2C...although I'd avoid going too far away from the Bight in the search of those ships. I'd actually settle for a limited search of them, while at the same time pulling back a bit. 1D might be lucrative, but I have a feeling that it is heading north towards the British mainforces. So we better stay away from it.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

1)C
2)C

We need to destroy more of the British fleet for the losses we have sustained. By catching those two Battleships alone and far from help we can make up for our losses and turn ths from a tactical victory which will likely be Pyrrhic to something that aproaches a strategic victory.

[Kraxis]

The minesweepers were German. Remember it was your light cruisers that asked for help with he survivors and the sweepers answered that call.

[Ludens]

I think we've just won a Phyrric victory as well. We had three operations planned: the Hartlepool raid with the Emperor's forces, the Dover raid with Betruger and the attack on the British fleet at the minefields with our main force. The first is a dismal failure, the second was cancelled when we realized we overstretched ourselves and the third is a success, albeit not as big as it could have been. We have lost one lesser and one stronger battleship; the British lost three lesser and one stronger battleship; losses in light forces are about equal: not bad in itself, but the British got twice as many ships as we do. In addition, most of our fleet is damaged while the British still got an unharmed fleet at Scapa Flow. Also, the Emperor is not going to be pleased at all with the failure of his little plan. Victory? Yes, but another such one and we are undone.

Bearing this in mind, I am all for going home, but I'd like to have a go at those two battleships that sunk Prinzregent Luitpold if they are not to far away. We are too close to Scapa Flow for comfort and searching for the missing ship (I assume this is Barham's consort) will lead us that way also. So I guess my votes are:

1C But don't pursue them too far
2C: Much as I would like to know what is going on nearer to Scapa Flow, neither the zeps' AA guns nor their speed will be sufficient to protect them from the Furious' planes

Also, I think we should be more carefull about sending out light forces during important operations: if things go wrong it is hard to send out support because everyone is focused on the main objective (and I realize I am 100% guilty here :embarassed: ).

[AggonyDuck]

Hmmmmm, only 15 Torpedoboats and 7 Light Cruisers left. I have a feeling that we can't afford to disperse or waste any more of our light forces. We also better make sure that we keep them close to our capital ships to ensure the safety of both.

I think our only possible strategy now is to do raids down the channel with our undamaged ships, but due to low numbers of our light forces we should stick to rather small raids.

Anyways lets see if we can catch those two battleships before heading to harbor to think things forward.

[King Kurt]

I am severly tempted to say I told you so. The night action has been disastorious. We have managed to sink 1 more battleship while loosing 1 of ours and having severe damage to at least 1 more. If we had broken off and just attacked with the Betruger and a few torpedo boats, we would have damaged 3 battleships at the cost of a couple of torpedo boats - a far better balance sheet than the current one. If we had supported the landing force it could have landed, done a bit of damage but created a political storm. With luck the battlecruisers might have caught the Furious as well. We have missed a great opportunity here.:no:

[Franconicus]

:coffeenews:
Sad news, in deed. We should learn the lesson and concentrate our forces.

1) The battleforces
C: Break off the chase and begin to search for the two heavies that mangled your rear.
:skull: revenge:skull:

2) The zeppeliners
C: Send them off to find the rogue British ships. Perhaps it will also keep them clear of any intervention from Furious.

[Kagemusha]

I agree with the majority: 1c and 2c.It makes me really sad to see how well Betruger managed to decieve the British. We really should have used it on the original confrontration in the Bligh.I think that the results could have been devastating.

[King Kurt]

In my dispondancy, I forgot to put up my options. I think I would go for 1C and 2C. The 2 english ships I assume are damaged from the battle and we may be able to overwhelm them. It might just make the tally sheet look a little better.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I agree with the majority: 1c and 2c.It makes me really sad to see how well Betruger managed to decieve the British. We really should have used it on the original confrontration in the Bligh.I think that the results could have been devastating.

Yes, but would the Betruger have fooled them as much if they hadn't been pursued and under mental pressure? Although a night battle was against tactical principles I don't think this one was a huge disaster. It wasn't good, but not a huge disaster either. In the worst case raid and landing would have lost us all of the escorting light cruisers but in return dealt no damage at all to the British... So I think the biggest mistake in the last two chapters probably was our decision to not trap the British more aggressively against the minefield in the first engagement. And one more thing we must learn from the last four chapters - no more night battles!

[Ludens]

Yes, but would the Betruger have fooled them as much if they hadn't been pursued and under mental pressure? Although a night battle was against tactical principles I don't think this one was a huge disaster. It wasn't good, but not a huge disaster either. In the worst case raid and landing would have lost us all of the escorting light cruisers but in return dealt no damage at all to the British... So I think the biggest mistake in the last two chapters probably was our decision to not trap the British more aggressively against the minefield in the first engagement. And one more thing we must learn from the last four chapters - no more night battles!
I don't think our decision to pursue was that bad: no doubt we dealt a lot of damage to the British as well and we managed to take out a QE-class. What really went wrong in my opinion was the loss of Prinzregent Luitpold and the Emperor's force.

Kraxis, I do take it that option 1C means that the slow and heavily damaged ships will be send home? I don't fancy chasing QE battleships with a slow force; especially as we might bump into British reinforcements.

[AggonyDuck]

So I think the biggest mistake in the last two chapters probably was our decision to not trap the British more aggressively against the minefield in the first engagement. And one more thing we must learn from the last four chapters - no more night battles!

Actually the biggest mistake with hindsight was the fact that we decided to send out the landing force. Without them being out the battle on the Bight might had been decisive and it would had allowed us to keep more torpedoboats out on the field.

But to be honest I wouldn't call this night action disastrous. We did well and even managed to sink Barham, which means they're down to 4 QE-class battleships. Also the surviving 7 battleships will propably be found on a drydock. While the damage our fleet has taken will stop it from sallying forth in strength in the next few months, it won't stop us from doing limited raids with our undamaged battlecruisers and battleships. We have actually decent amount of fully battleworthy ships left. :2thumbsup:

So I'd say things are not that bad really. Actually it just dawned to me that Oldenburg wasn't a light cruiser, but a dreadnaught....that makes the ratio a lot worse...

[Kommodus]

I also vote 1C and 2C. Those two British heavies might be QEs and we may still have a chance to sink them.

I also think that while we suffered more than I'd have liked, we still have hope. Many of our ships are damaged, but for the most part the damage isn't that serious and should be repaired soon. The Prinzregent Leopold is the hardest loss to swallow. If only we hadn't sent out the landing force so soon, but waited till the battle for the Bight was over. That decision just keeps coming back to bite us.

[Lord Winter]

1c 2c
I don't think the battle went to badly but it could have gone better of course. This is war and there are going to be casualties.

[Flavius Clemens]

Much as I would love to continue the main chase, I think the best risk - reward balance is 1C. They are damaged from the earlier combat, and we heavily outnumber them. This gives us the chance to go from 4 sunk from 11 engaged to 6 from 13 engaged. If we continue the current chase we may find ourselves facing reinforcements before we have chance to react, and these two battleships will still be in our rear.

For the zeppelins, maybe keep one to help hunt down these two battleships, but otherwise they need to be got out of the way. And as we haven't found Furious, we need to warn the Zeppelin base to be on alert for possible air attack after dawn.

[Flavius Clemens]

And whichever direction we go for, we should pass on the last known location and course of all the enemy forces to the U-boats, in case they can make a lucky strike as they did last time.

[Lord Winter]

I think we should lobby to the Kaiser the importance of placing the U boats under our command. They could be important in our attempt to cut the channel link.

[AntiochusIII]

And whichever direction we go for, we should pass on the last known location and course of all the enemy forces to the U-boats, in case they can make a lucky strike as they did last time.That I support. And 1C so that we could crush the two supposedly damaged British battleships before they could join the main forces and add to the weight of the British forces. Hunting the main fleet is over; the reinforcements would soon arrive in droves for the British.

If nightfall brings no result from the hunt, however, turn home. Or if engaged by the Scapa Flow force, then turn home, too.

Moaning and crying over the losses do us no good; what really went wrong was us spreading our forces. More united we could've dealt stronger damage. It is not so much "I told you so" as much as "we should just do one thing at a time."

Also, the Light Forces will be recovering if the ships we've ordered some time ago join us--or, is it just my misunderstanding and all the newer ships are already in our forces?

2C. Without this choice the hunt for the two British battleships would be much harder and slower. We cannot afford that.

Also, prepare the Zeppelins base for a possible air raid.

[Franconicus]

Some actions would be nice:

1) Tell the subs that some damaged RN ships are on their way home. (I doubt that we can get control over the subs.)
2) Let's make a new passage through the mine field. We might need it. And I guess right now the sweepers can work without interceptions.
3) Get the airbases allert. Can we get any cover from our airforce?

P.S.: Do not worry too much about the Furious. This is WW1!!

[King Kurt]

I think we should get those Zeps with the AA guns on flying patrol over the base from dawn. We should start thinking about these - Kraxis, could the guns engage surface targets? - might help even up the light forces miss-match.

[AggonyDuck]

I think those 77mm guns would barely scratch their light forces..

[King Kurt]

I think those 77mm guns would barely scratch their light forces..
I am not so sure, in WW2 heavy guns were mounted in planes and were effective against shipping. The Mosquito had a 57mm fitted and the B25 had a 75mm fitted - both had success against shipping. I am only thinking about attacking destroyers - in WW1 these were small fragile ships and any armour would be on the sides, not horizontally, so the plunging fire from the air could be very effective. The only question mark would be if the 77mm guns had suitable ammo - or did they only have someform of airburst AA round.

[Franconicus]

If we expect an air raid, our Zeps should leave the bases, maybe.

[Ludens]

I am actually wondering how the two battleships could get into our rear. Haven't our zeppelins fanned out over the North Sea? For some reason I presumed that they would automatically cover our base (and thus give ample warning of any aireal attack originating from Furious).

[King Kurt]

I am actually wondering how the two battleships could get into our rear. Haven't our zeppelins fanned out over the North Sea? For some reason I presumed that they would automatically cover our base (and thus give ample warning of any aireal attack originating from Furious).
Re-reading the account of Kraxis's last installment, I think the 2 heavies were part of the force of 11 we originally engaged. During the night, the English changed direction and probably they split off 2 ships to help cover this move. our weaker ships are at the end of the line, so an attack on where our rear might be made sense - they were lucky to bump into the landing force.
One thing comes to mind was that these forces were at the hole in the minefield - I wonder if the english challenge is to get inside and actually attack our base - they have shown some signs of this in the past. The tactic seems a bit hairbrained - why throw away 2 of your best ships on a one way mission? - but our oppolents have not shown a great deal of tactical sense in the past. The previous night action seemed to be getting the 2 super light cruisers through our defences to possibly attack our base.
Has anybody else got any thoughts on this idea?:2thumbsup:

[Kommodus]

I suspect that the main British objective is to either:

A) Cripple our fleet so that it's not a threat for the rest of the war, or
B) Keep us bottled up inside our home base.

Perhaps they believe that a direct strike on our shipyards will help them accomplish A. In this they may be right; I really haven't thought of the implications of a possible attack on the base itself. Still, I wouldn't want this consideration to put us on the defensive - I maintain that we must be aggressive in order to have a chance of success.

[King Kurt]

Our stance has been defensive in that we are outnumbered - perhaps they think that by attacking us we will sortie out to retaliate or that by destroying our port facilities they will remove our naval forces as a threat. It is obvious that we must be aggressive to put the English on the back foot (sorry - cricketing metaphore!) - so let us plan a strike at a Channel port or the Hartlepool raid so we gain the initative. I assume that the English will put some forces to sea to come to the aid of the fleet we attacked - our recon indicated about half the fleet in Scarpa as steaming up ready to go to sea.. Once they withdraw, we should strike soon. If they put another force in the Bight, we should strike at that - we must have control of the Bight to take the offensive.
Ideally, the whole fleet should sortie under cover of darkness and strike at a Channel Port really hard - I think we could get to Calais, level it and get back in port before the English can get down from Scarpa.:2thumbsup:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ideally, the whole fleet should sortie under cover of darkness and strike at a Channel Port really hard - I think we could get to Calais, level it and get back in port before the English can get down from Scarpa.:2thumbsup:

Yes, I agree with that. I'm wondering - weren't a few of our landing forces infantry possibly captured in the night battle? Then the enemy would expect us to hit Hartlepool next. If that's the case, a raid on some other target, like Calais, with our full fleet, would be very good IMO :2thumbsup:

[Ludens]

Ideally, the whole fleet should sortie under cover of darkness and strike at a Channel Port really hard - I think we could get to Calais, level it and get back in port before the English can get down from Scarpa.:2thumbsup:
I agree. The captives of the Hartlepool raid will tell the British of the Emperor's plan, which may induce them to scatter their fleet further. This may help us, especially if we hit Calais instead of Britain. Despite this, I fear that the Emperor may withdraw his troops once he learns what a botch we made of our first attempt. Perhaps it would help to send him a suitably edited version of events first thing when we reach port.

Still, I think we should read too much in the British night attack. IIRC the former crew of the Betruger indicated it was just a raid on our minesweepers; carried out with a poor selection of ships.

Kraxis, does option 1C include sending our damaged and slowed ships home? I don't see much point in chasing QE class battleships with slow ships; and I certainly don't want to be caught in the open by British reinforcements with a slow fleet!

[Kraxis]

The damaged ships (as in slowed or less than ready for battle) will form their own little force and sneak home. They should be strong enough to defeat any small force of British heavies, but if any larger selection of heavies find them, it can get nasty (since your more fresh units will be running around looking for the two sneaky ones).
Your remaining units will split up into groups strong enough to defeat any two damaged British battleships. In terms of speed you will never have a chance of actually catching a QE if it is fresh and ready. They can sail 24 knots while most of yours can't reach 22. But there is indication the two ships were damaged in the battle with Prinzregent Luitpold.

[AggonyDuck]

Where exactly are we now and how far away are we from Wilhelmshaven?

[Flavius Clemens]

I've been pondering this line from Kraxis' description of the night battle
"For minutes the two lines are engaged but in a less than perfect position to deal out damage, but you do notice a single very heavy gun firing once in a while off to the side of the British line."
Unless this is a heavily damaged ship with only one gun operating, the only thing I can think of that would match this is the Furious on its early configuration of flying deck forward and single 18" aft.
http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/light-cruiser/hms-Furious.html
Perhaps the other team have not opted to make the modifications that were done historically (I think they have brought Furious into operation a week or so before the conversion to two flight decks was completed in real life.)

On the subject of defending the zep base, I suspect attempting to engage attacking fighters using Zeppelin mounted AA guns would be risky - the fighters will be a far smaller more manoeverable target than the blimps we installed the guns to attack.

And on future attacks on Britain, the fact that their intelligence will now be aware of the planned Hartlepool landing can to some extent contribute to our objective. The British high command now has to weigh the risk of future landing attempts, and might choose to keep more troops at home to face them. So switching our tactics to port raiding might wrong foot them, but it is now a game of bluff and double-bluff.
Also there is perhaps a risk that the British will get their equivalent of the Betruger from the torpedo boat they attacked and possibly boarded.

[Kraxis]

So Flavius, did you get that page from the picture I provided or have you been using it all along?

You are not certain of how far out you are, but during the chase you have moved at least 120 nautical miles north (when I say miles it is assumed to be nautical) of the minefields. So the damaged ships won't be safe until around 8 in the morning, and not in port until about half past 9. And that assumes they get home without incident.

[Ludens]

The damaged ships (as in slowed or less than ready for battle) will form their own little force and sneak home. They should be strong enough to defeat any small force of British heavies, but if any larger selection of heavies find them, it can get nasty (since your more fresh units will be running around looking for the two sneaky ones).
Thanks for the information, Kraxis. Is it really necessary that the fleet becomes split up in this way? I'd say that with the zeps scouting we should be able to locate and intercept the British ships without scattering our forces too much. I cannot help but feel that a big British fleet is bearing down on us from Scapa Flow. Together with the possibility of Furious having joined the British battlegroup I'd rather choose B if that means our damaged ships won't be left vulnerable.

Good catch Flavius!

[Franconicus]

If the RN is sending another big fleet we may miss our main target, the Channel.:no:

However, you may be right. What are the British doing with the Furious? Is their mission an air raid against our Zep bases. I do not know. The fighters will not do so much damage there, esp. if the Zeps are in hangars. Would the Brits risk to loose the Furious for that.

Best mission for the Furious would be a big fleet operation. Then it could screen the fleet, lead the fire and intercept the Zeps. This would be a severe disadvantage for us.

So what can we do? We have to sink the two big fishes in our rear. We should use the Zep to do this quick. Also the Zeps should screen the Northern part of the sea. Maybe even another Scapa recon mission.

Further more we now need some help from the Uboot Kommando. One torpedo into the Furious and the world would be much brighter.:2thumbsup:

We also should try to make get some cover from the airforce and we should clear another path through the minefield. Maybe even close the old one.

And then: Strike. I agree that the British will increase their garrisons at the costal cities (good news for the front!). So we should attack a French harbor. I guess there will not be many garrison troops.

I guess if troops come from the UK to France. they march to the English harbor and wait there for the transport. So there will be many troops al the times.
Once they are in France they will go straight to the front. So there will be less troops at the French side. Further more I guess that the harbors are not so important to the French. Thier focus is the front. So garrisons should be small. Probably the big costal batteries are already tranfered to Verdun. So we could attack an harbor, level it, send some cavalry in there. This would create a lot of confusion behind the French lines and certainly help our soldiers at the front.

What do you say?

[King Kurt]

I certainly think we should be back inside the minefields by daybreak. Our recon showed about a dozen ships under steam in Scarpa Flow. I would estimate that they could be down from Scarpa by morning so it would be best to withdraw to lick our wounds. If we find the 2 battleships in our rear, we should engage them, but too much of a search could leave us a little exposed.
I would also echo Ludens comments on Flavius@s catch. I had interpreted the single gun as a badly damaged ship, but the Furious is a strong possibility. The force was sighted early morning to the south of Scarpa, so, in hindsight, if they had steamed hard they could have joined with the forces in the Bight during the early evening.:2thumbsup:

[Flavius Clemens]

So Flavius, did you get that page from the picture I provided or have you been using it all along?

I had browsed that site before, but I had taken for granted that the British had replaced the aft turret with the second flight deck as they did in real life. It was only the line about the single gun in the battle description that rang a bell and made me recheck the details.

[Kraxis]

I had browsed that site before, but I had taken for granted that the British had replaced the aft turret with the second flight deck as they did in real life. It was only the line about the single gun in the battle description that rang a bell and made me recheck the details.
Yes, but notice that that didn't happen until 1922...

[Franconicus]

Kraxis,

You could do me a favour! I assume the Kaiser is still our friend. Let's try to get some of these:

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/tgenth/gotha/GothaGIVe.htm

They are much better than our Zeps. They should operate between England and Norway and do recon and attack the convois. I am sure that the Brits will use their carrier to protect their convoys.

The bombers could also support any landing operation.

They are faster than the Zeps and hard to intercept. I doubt that any interceptor from a carrier or from the coast will get them. Although the damage will be low, the confusion will be good.

[King Kurt]

Kraxis,

You could do me a favour! I assume the Kaiser is still our friend. Let's try to get some of these:

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/tgenth/gotha/GothaGIVe.htm

They are much better than our Zeps. They should operate between England and Norway and do recon and attack the convois. I am sure that the Brits will use their carrier to protect their convoys.

The bombers could also support any landing operation.

They are faster than the Zeps and hard to intercept. I doubt that any interceptor from a carrier or from the coast will get them. Although the damage will be low, the confusion will be good.
Franc - Ignoring the fact that I expect Kraxis wouldn't let us have them any way, I am not so sure that these are so useful as they look. I read the whole article and their 1 drawback is they do not have a radio - but they do have pigeons! - so our vital recon information will only arrive a few days late or end up as the supper for a hawk or some farmer with a good aim!!
I remain a fan of the Zeps - they are stable, have great endurance - some Gothas had to refuel as they left france to remain over England for an extra 20 minutes - and they carried radios. The gothas could follow up our raid, bombing the fires we raise in the attack, but they must have been vunrable to fighters, operating so close to the front line as they did.
On a more pressing note - Kraxis - when do we play Battleships again? - I don't like these long tense waits!!:2thumbsup:

[Franconicus]

KK, read this "The high flying Gothas were initially able to bomb by daylight without much threat from fighters." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotha_G )
I doubt that they could be picked off by British fighters like the Zeps. They are much faster and operate high. So while the Brits are still climbing the Gothas are already gone:laugh4:

No radio? That is sad :no: But I guess the operation time is maybe 8 hours. Lets say two hours to the operational area, four on recon and two hours back. Then we should have the message at least 6 hours after they spotted a British ship. Not so bad.

But the main purpose is to create confusion. I think this could work.
By the way, the Kaiser is our brother-in-arms. He will do us this favour. And isn't Kraxis a bia too?

[Ludens]

By the way, the Kaiser is our brother-in-arms. He will do us this favour.
You mean before or after he hears that we managed to get his invasion force sunk? :inquisitive:

I exaggerate, but the fact that the RN stopped an "invasion" (that's how they will call it) will be a major allied propaganda coup as well. I won't expect any support from the Emperor until we can present him with some successes, preferably employing his own troops. I think we should make this our next priority after returning to port (providing the RN leaves us alone off course).

[Flavius Clemens]

Yes, but notice that that didn't happen until 1922...
I was basing this on a Wikipedia article, which said that the aft turret was replaced by a second flight deck, being recommissioned 15th March 1918. Further amendments were made in 1922 when the superstructure was removed to make a single flight deck.
But presumably in the game they were too busy repairing battleships to refit Furious~:)

If we can get our hands on some bombers perhaps they could be used against Furious - one or two hits on the flight deck could ground the aircraft and give us room for Zeppelin manoevers again.

[Lord Winter]

If the RN is sending another big fleet we may miss our main target, the Channel.:no:

However, you may be right. What are the British doing with the Furious? Is their mission an air raid against our Zep bases. I do not know. The fighters will not do so much damage there, esp. if the Zeps are in hangars. Would the Brits risk to loose the Furious for that.

Best mission for the Furious would be a big fleet operation. Then it could screen the fleet, lead the fire and intercept the Zeps. This would be a severe disadvantage for us.

So what can we do? We have to sink the two big fishes in our rear. We should use the Zep to do this quick. Also the Zeps should screen the Northern part of the sea. Maybe even another Scapa recon mission.

Further more we now need some help from the Uboot Kommando. One torpedo into the Furious and the world would be much brighter.:2thumbsup:

We also should try to make get some cover from the airforce and we should clear another path through the minefield. Maybe even close the old one.

And then: Strike. I agree that the British will increase their garrisons at the costal cities (good news for the front!). So we should attack a French harbor. I guess there will not be many garrison troops.

I guess if troops come from the UK to France. they march to the English harbor and wait there for the transport. So there will be many troops al the times.
Once they are in France they will go straight to the front. So there will be less troops at the French side. Further more I guess that the harbors are not so important to the French. Thier focus is the front. So garrisons should be small. Probably the big costal batteries are already tranfered to Verdun. So we could attack an harbor, level it, send some cavalry in there. This would create a lot of confusion behind the French lines and certainly help our soldiers at the front.

What do you say?
Agreed, this could be a good opportunity to get back into the Kaiser's favor, but we have to be careful. First of all we have to know were the rest of the royal navy is so they we don't have to fight them on our own terms, second we don't need to level the city to be effective, the raid alone will draw quite a bit of soldiers from the front and lastly we should not underestimate the garrison. They will still be be in a tactical stronger position and have much better access to supplies, so we cant make this turn into a siege.

I don't think the planes will help in the long run. They may give us better recon and possibly a small edge in battle, but other then that they're not not worth it. Or more, U boats will be better in our goal of cutting the channel. Like Fredrick the great said "The main objective of war is to force a favorable peace, and this can best be done by cutting supplies to France.

[Franconicus]

I don't think the planes will help in the long run. They may give us better recon and possibly a small edge in battle, but other then that they're not not worth it.
Agreed. But recon is an isuue. If the RN uses the Furious as carrier, then it will be hard to control the sea and esp. the battle fiel with our Zeps. They simply have no chance against fighter, with their big guns or without. The bombers are different. They are much faster. Before the Brits will gain their altidute the bombers are gone already. And bombing some convoys in the Northern sea will not interupt the British supply. However. it will probably force the Brits to withdraw the carrier and to cover the convoys.

The Furious has only two tasks: Doing recon and fighting our recon. The british planes are much too weak to fight our ships our to attack our bases. With the bombers we could regain the balance.

[AggonyDuck]

To be honest any attempt to cut off the channel in our current state is throwing away our ships. I'm quite positive that the British have the advantage of listening to our wireless and any attempt to attack the channel shipping will result in the British fleet cutting those ships off.

[Franconicus]

We have to do it even if we through away the ships. Do we need wireless? Can we use wireless to give them a false hind?:inquisitive:

[AggonyDuck]

How about luring the Grand Fleet away from the channel, while our battlecruisers sail down it with the raiding force? :idea2:

EDIT: I will also change my vote to 1B and 2B, although it shouldn't matter. I just doubt that we will find the two battleships, especially if they're QE-class.

[Franconicus]

Maybe we could send our fastest big ship to the shore of Norway. It would threaten the convoys and the Brits would chase it. Like they did with the Bismarck some years later. Maybe then the rest of our fleet could attack the Channel withou interception?

[King Kurt]

The English must either sit outside our base with most of their ships - not very effective as we would just have to wait until they needed refueling etc - or keep a close blockade with a resonable strength squadron, hoping to get more ships down from Scarpa if we attack - the problem with this is we can sortie and overwhelm the blockading squadron - as we have just done. So hopefully they will keep watch with light forces and call the fleet from scarpa when we sortie.
So - if we can sortie as night falls - for example make it look like training - we can be off calais within a few hours - level it and land the troops - then push back to base before the English fleet can get steam up and get down from Scarpa - we could even move the landing fleet to a base nearer such as Ostend or Zeebruge so we would not be tied to their speed. There may even be a case of just using battlecruisers and our best battleships.
But first things first - when do we play battleships again???:2thumbsup:

[King Kurt]

By the way - I have just come across a Profile I had about HMS Furious. She did have fore and aft decks by now - but we could assume they may have had the choice for which flavour - with or without big gun - they wanted. The interesting thing was that even with the aft deck, it was found that is was virtually impossible to land planes due to the turbulance caused by the superstructure of the ship - so it was assumed that planes were single shot weapons. The fighters had some sucess against Zeps, but the most notable event was a raid by about a dozen Camels in about July 1918 on the Zep base. With only 50 kg bombs they had complete surprise and burned a hanger with 2 Zeps in to the ground - this was the first carrier strike in history.:2thumbsup:

[Kraxis]

Fog of War

As the big bridgeclock ticks past 2:15 you order the fleet to turn around. You are certain you can catch the British once more in the early morning, but you are not too thrilled about perhaps meeting a responseforce of fresh battleships. That could turn the entire battle around. This is the time to turn around and see what you can catch to the south, there are after all still two British battleships out there unsupported. Yes... You would be able to hunt them down on your way home. That would add a lot to the score. But a free chase like this one over hundreds of nautical miles would not likely grant you much. You need eyes in the skies and there is only one possible scout for that, the zeppeliners. While normally they should have been going home for refueling now, the fact that you have had tehm attached to the fleet has let them conserve a lot of fuel, now that can be used for finding the British battleships. You give the order and listen to the sounds of engines quickly getting drowned by the sounds of the sea and massive ships plowing through it. The hunt is on...

It doesn't take long before you realize that the fleet must be broken up if you are to have a chance at catching the British battleships. The damaged and slowed ships are to head home with their own force. Going over the damage you send Moltke, Kaiser, König and Markgrafalong with four light cruisers and 6 torpedoboats home.
The remaining ships you break up into three ship units. One of battlecruisers, one lead by your own Bayern with Posen and Friedrich der Grosse, another with Grosser Kurfürst, Baden and Ostfriesland, a third containing Kronprinz Wilhelm, König Albert and Thüringen, the remaining Nassau class ships will follow the damaged ships home. Each of the three battlegroups will also contain a light cruiser and three torpedoboats.

The groups split up in groups and head off in the various directions while the main group head south at 18 knots. You spread out and speed ahead at 20 knots, nearly forcing Posen to fall back, but by a miracle she manages to keep up. You own force takes the most likely direction that should catch the British. Due west.
For hours you push on with no intel on the whereabouts of the enemy, and at half past four a heavy fog settles on you. You order the other ships to keep their heading. The sea has also calmed down and now it is blank. And after a while you turn south a bit giving the order by lights, but there is no response.
The time slowly passes by, but by half past five the darkness finally begins to release it's grip. Now you can see that you are alone. The other ships nowhere in sight.
Alone you can't do much and you order a stronger course towards south, heading home. Hoping that the British won't intercept you out here.

The fog lifts quickly as soon as the sun comes up, and at 200 degrees you notice a ship heading almost right for you. You can't make it out yet, but it is clearly a heavy battlewagon. And it is likely a British ship. At 06:35 you finally recognize the ship as an enemy and one of the better spotters identify it as a QE or R class ship. Around you there aren't anything that can indicate other ships. The two of you are alone, you might be in for a duel. Range is now 35000 meters, the extreme edge of your guns. You send off a wireless message that you have indeed met an enemy ship.
You are pretty even in this fight. If it is a QE then he will hold the edge in speed, but you will have the edge in armour, and a minor advantage in guns. If he is an R class you are even in armour and you have a minor advantages in speed and guns.

What will you do?

1) The range of your guns is your strength. You hit harder and better at range compared to the British ships, also your shells are less likely to not explode, or explode prematurely when striking at odd angles. Turn in a few minutes and begin the duel.

2) Your armour is strong in the belt, but the deck is woefully thin. It doesn't matter that your guns are a bit stronger. In this case a lucky shot will be enough for both sides. Get closer and use your superior accuracy to defeat him at conventional ranges.

3) Your ship is called 'fat' by some, but it is in fact merely the visible result of a superior design, it can soak up much more damage than the sleeker British ships. Also there is a good cahnce that your armour is superior along with the guns. At short range these minor advantages can easily become vital. Charge in at close range and pund the British ship to pieces.

4) Attempt to evade him. But he is in your way, you don't know if you can get past him before reinforcements arrive.

[Kagemusha]

1) Lets start bombarding the British Ship.The sound of our Guns will also tell our other Ships the exact location,so they will get in the fight sooner.:2thumbsup:

[Kommodus]

Hm, a short one. Let's take a look at the options:

1) I'm not comfortable with a long-range battle, which may last too long and give the British time to bring reinforcements. The obvious question is: where is the other British BB? It probably got separated from its companion in the fog, as we did, so we shouldn't worry about it appearing immediately. Nevertheless, we're asking for trouble if we give it too long to catch up.

2) This is a solid option which strikes a good balance between playing to our advantages and making good use of time. However, it gives the British ship a chance to escape if it's losing the battle.

3) This probably gives us the best chance of sinking the enemy outright, and brings a quick, decisive end to the battle - one way or the other. However, the Bayern will probably suffer extreme damage, and that would be hard cheese to swallow.

4) Not likely, with the British ship holding the advantage in speed. I'd rather get this duel over with as quickly as possible with a minimum of risk, so we can get our ships and zeps home.

Thus I'll go with 2. This isn't a battle I particularly want to fight anyway (we have no numerical advantage), so I'd like to just get it over with without risking too much. We probably won't sink the enemy this way but hopefully we'll damage it severely enough to keep it out of the coming fight.

[DemonArchangel]

Option 2 seems to be the best option. However, it would be wise to radio for escorts.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Hmmm, not totally certain yet, but for now I'll go with two. It sounds like this gives us the best chance to hurt them, and despite their speed advantage we will hopefully be able to damage them badly enough that they will not escape.

I think one gives us a slim chance of sinking them, and gives them an excellent chance to run, while three seems suicidal, and four is just unacceptable, we are here to sink them not run!

[Rodion Romanovich]

I choose option 2

[Peasant Phill]

I vote for 2 like everybody else.

1) seems to depend on luck and will take to long

3) a heavily damaged Bayern is a disaster for us so the risks are to high

4) not very likely and we waste an opportunity to damage or sink a British ship.

[Ludens]

This is a hard decision. Each choice comes with its own risks:
1) Resolves combat quickly, but risks that British escape or worse, that one lucky hit will take us out
2) Will result in a long slogging match in which reinforcements (for either side) may turn up
3) Risks the Bayern being heavily damaged
4) Risks little, but gains little either.

For some reason I am paranoid about option 2: it just seems too obvious to me. Option 3 is out: the whole point of this action is to destroy the British with minimal damage to ourselves. We cannot afford to trade hit for hit. The British will be damaged from their encounter with Prinzregent Luitpold, but we don't how much so I am not ready to suppose they are limping on their last legs. Option 4 is the least risky, but would be wasting an opportunity to take revenge on the British.

We have an edge in guns and I wan't this resolved speedily, so I prefer 1. Did we bring light forces or zeppelins with us, BTW? And how many British destroyers were spotted by Prinzregent Luitpold?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Ludens, he said we were all alone, so I believe we have no light forces or zeppelins within sight.

I was feeling a bit paranoid about two as well, but if you really think about it what are the odds that he'll give us a lucky hit on the British ship?

Kraxis if it isn't a trade secret how do you decide that sort of thing? Flip of a coin? Roll of a die? Or have you already decided?

[Kraxis]

I have a general feeling of what I want, but given as to there are two decisions going on, I can't allow myself to be too set. I have to adapt to surprising events.

That is partly why it takes quite some time to get updates as most often it doesn't play out as I imagine it will. So I need some time to think it over.

Of course this little chapter was something I decided I wanted to happen, it wasn't really a result of your previous choices (other than you actually deciding to set out for battle of course), though the choice to chase the two British ships made it much easier to do (I doubt I would have done it otherwise).

[Flavius Clemens]

If they're true to past form the British will probably be aggressive (especially if they can recognise Bayern as one of our most modern battleships and therefore possibly our flagship) and try to narrow the range themselves. In general I have nothing against starting the battle at long range while we move to conventional range, but I wonder what our ammunition supply is like as we have been through two hectic engagements already. Given that we may face reinforcements before getting home it may be wise to make every shot count, so I vote for 2.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Yeah, I think so long as we don't get too close we'll be good.

Kraxis any ETA on our reinforcements?
Do we have a good idea of where we are or are we just in the North Sea as far as we know?

[Franconicus]

Where is the other ship? This could be an ambush! Let`s run!!

[AggonyDuck]

Option nr. 1 is my guess. I believe at long ranges our supposedly superior gunnery should show quite clearly. :2thumbsup:

[King Kurt]

2 is the best - especially if the English try to close - we would have 8 guns to his 4. Long range - plunging fire is too risky - as is short range, bloodbath - so let us go for conventional engagement - it is what our ships are designed for. I get the feeling that we will not see forces from either side as this is a Kraxis engineered event. However, we should attempt to keep our general direction as towards base - ie any turns - choose that which takes us closer to home - also, if he breaks off - don't pursue.

[Ludens]

However, we should attempt to keep our general direction as towards base - ie any turns - choose that which takes us closer to home - also, if he breaks off - don't pursue.
I agree 100% with this. Still, I think that we need to resolve this quickly, so my choice remains option 1.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Let's not make all of our turns head towards home...That is a bit too predictable in my opinion. Maybe keep the majority of them in that direction, or ensure that we always end up heading more that way then away from the base. (2 steps towards the base for every one away, or something like that).

I don't know how much you can lead a target with a Battleship's big guns, but it doesn't feel like a good idea to be so predictable.

[King Kurt]

I don't know how much you can lead a target with a Battleship's big guns, but it doesn't feel like a good idea to be so predictable.
Basically, we have 2 choices - keep a resonably steady course to ensure our best chance of hitting - and being hit - or take lots of evasive action which has the reverse effect. In a ship on ship action, our best course of action is to choose a range to engage at where we have the best advantage. I believe that this is at a medium to long range where fire will not be plunging - risking the chance of a hit on our deck armour - and our superior shooting due to our equipment and broad beam will give us an edge. If we close the range, we limit the guns we can use - possibly 4 to their 8 - and at short range our advantage is negated by the fact that most shots hit. Finally, we could assume that this ship has some damage with it's clash with our forces earlier, so some long range damage may cause her to pull away. Even better, she may decide to charge us - they seem Gung ho and can afford to loose more ships than us - so we pick her off as she attempts to close.:2thumbsup:

[Franconicus]

KK,

I agree with everything you say. However, what do you think about the 2nd ship. Did I miss something or is ther still another big one out there?

[King Kurt]

Franc

I believe that Kraxis has given us this as a diversion and after it has been resolved, we will return to the main story line, so the 2nd ship is a likely to turn up as our supports:2thumbsup:

[Kommodus]

I agree 100% with this. Still, I think that we need to resolve this quickly, so my choice remains option 1.

Ludens, out of curiosity, what makes you think option 1 resolves the battle quickly? Remember, that's the choice to engage at long range, meaning many more shots will miss or bounce off the armor. I think it's a safe bet that of the fighting options (excluding 4), number 3 is the quickest, number 2 is in the middle, and number 1 takes the longest.

You might be thinking of the time required to close the distance, but I suspect that amount of time to be negligible in comparison to the time of the actual engagement.

[Franconicus]

Franc

I believe that Kraxis has given us this as a diversion and after it has been resolved, we will return to the main story line, so the 2nd ship is a likely to turn up as our supports:2thumbsup:
I agree that Kraxis made the set up as kind of theoretical situation. However, are you sure that the topic of investigation is not "How to lure the Huns in a trap build by two battleships"?

[King Kurt]

I agree that Kraxis made the set up as kind of theoretical situation. However, are you sure that the topic of investigation is not "How to lure the Huns in a trap build by two battleships"?
Franc - I think this is just an exercise in one on one tactics - who knows, it might even turn out to be a "Bobby in the shower in Dallas" situation where our estimed Admiral wakes up and it is all just a dream!!!
In WW1 I don't think a battleship on battleship encounter ever happened. The late war ships - QEs/R class/ Bayerns were, in some ways, nearer to WW2 ships than WW1 and were certainly better suited for one on one actions. However, as in all WW1 battleships, they had little or no horizontal armour to keep out plunging shells or bombs - that is why I do not like the idea of a long range encounter, prefering a battle where the shells hit our belts not our decks.:2thumbsup:

[Franconicus]

Then I agree. Option 2. Kill him!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

King Kurt what I meant was that I do not know how much you can lead a target with a battleships guns. By leading I mean aiming ahead of it (where it will be when the round arrives). If you can lead a worthwhile amount than it is not a good idea for all of our evasive manuevers to go in the same directions as one of their gunnery control officers or whatnot could figure it out and place their shells accordingly.

[Ludens]

Ludens, out of curiosity, what makes you think option 1 resolves the battle quickly? Remember, that's the choice to engage at long range, meaning many more shots will miss or bounce off the armor. I think it's a safe bet that of the fighting options (excluding 4), number 3 is the quickest, number 2 is in the middle, and number 1 takes the longest.
At this distance we will use plunging fire, so we hit to top and not the armour. This way a few hits can take out a ship. We have slightly better range, slightly better accuracy and better shells, so we have an edge, albeit a small one.

I agree this option is risky, but so are the others and I still am suspicious about option 2. Why did Kraxis ask us if it it so obvious? So I'd rather keep my distance. This will also make it easier to disengage should other British ships appear.

[Kraxis]

The Duel of the Sea

At once you order the captain to speed up to battlespeed after the slowing down at first contact. The enemy ship has also done so and you close hard on each other. You get ready to rumble.
The gunnery officer calls for your attention. "Herr Admiral, we are low on AP ammo. We have a mere 176 AP shells left. We can't get itno a lenghty duel here."
"22 full broadsides. Yes that is not nearly enough to be certain. Secondary guns and HE ammo?"
"Our secondary guns haven't been much engaged, they are not likely to run out anytime soon. We have 96 HE shells ready."
"I see, the guns are loaded with AP?"
"Yes, and elevated for extreme range firing."
"Very well. We will have to sacrifice the first hit I think. After first volley load up the guns with HE, minimum delay. Their greater splashes should make them better for spotters to make out, helping our gunnery in these critical minutes. When begin to near straddles load with AP. Remember to compensate for the difference in weight."
"Yes Herr Admiral."
You have barely finished turned back to look out before a spotter screams down that the enemy is turning to starboard, presenting her port side. At the speed she makes even you can see her lean over to her port, as she struggles to finish the turn. She prepares to keep the distance high.
"Very well... so you want to play... Captain! Keep this heading. If he keeps his course for long enough and we don't turn we will get as close as we need, eventually also forcing him to turn to not suffer our broadside to his rear guns. That will play into our hand. If we run right at him he will have the advantage of the broadside for longer as well as not having to calculate a more complex rangedecrease for each volley."
As you finish a spotter yells down. "TURN FINSHED!" And at once flashes can be seen. The range is down to 28,000.
The gunnery officer looks to you and you answer the unsaid question. "Not yet..."

The British ship continues to fire off broadsides at you, but in the first five volleys they never get nearer than 300 meters, though they are edging closer and closer. You are nearing the range you want.
"Open fire!" And at once the guns spew out great flames as their shells are propelled towards the British ship, but only the forwards four guns can fire. And at the same second the British ship fires its sixth broadside.
With your second volley you see massive splashes quite close to the British ship. Your plan is working. But the British seventh and eighth broadsides are close to you, soon hits should be scored. Even more reason to close the range fast.

Range is now 20000, and you order the turn to starboard, presenting the undamaged port side, finally letting the rear turrets join in. But the ninth British broadside straddles you. They have found your range, and it will be hard to get our of again.
You urge the guncrews to work harder, the British are winning, and finally you get off the first broadside. But only five seconds later the tenth British broadside comes crashing down around you, and to your dismay one of the shells carves up your deck behind the rear turrets, leaving a long furrow, but at least it doesn't enter and explode.

By the time of your third broadside the British have hit you three times more, but each time their shells have been negated by the strong beltarmour. Meanwhile you have straddled the British ship. With no damage done and the fight being carried out at your favoured range, you feel confident. And for several broadsides the two ships have a nice go at it, and despite you scoring no hits, neither does the British. But then the enemy ship begin to turn and slow down, getting out from under the next volley, then speeding up again and turning back, once more evading the volley. By then you catch on, and order the gunnery officer to not compensate for misses. And you are rewarded right after with a mass of hits on the British ship. You don't know how many but at least four shells struck home. But the success is marred by the British hitting you as well, with one hit ripping off the top of the superstructure throwing the spottingstation into the sea. After this the British ship gives up her fancy tactics and settles in for a proper sluggingmatch.

The battle continues with a furious pace. Both ships scoring hits repeatedly. But while your hits generally penetrate the British armour, Bayern manages to throw off most hits. But at 7:24 the two of you have nearly swapped places, with you to the south and the British ship to the north. It has been a destructive and deadly game. You have observed 19 hits on your enemy, but you have suffered 22 hits yourself. Of these only 9 have penetrated the armour or hit weakspots. The results of these hits was the destruction of turret Caesar in a very unspectacular explosion that could better be termed a slow fire after a penetration of the deck and barbette, exploding the shell in the turretbasket. But te fire is still out of control and is billowing a lot of fire. Another hit caused a backfire in turret Dora. Apparently the shell had hit the guntube denting it enough to cause the explosion. Luckily the other tube and its crew survived to continue the fight. Another hit toppled the rear funnel and the slim tower that was built onto it's back. A non-penetrative hit struck the bridge and basically killed everyone over there by the shockwave, but the rest of the bridge survived. Finally a shell managed to penetrate the strong beltarmour and explode in the the generators, knocking one out, leaving you unable to sail faster than 16 knots.

Despite the fact that the British ship is settling by the nose very slowly, she fights on like a cornered rat. Perhaps she has bought it, and thus have no other option but to fight until the end, or perhaps the damage isn't so bad after all. But at least you have noticed a severely weakened broadside, with at least one turret out of action, and a serious fire is blazing just in front of their C turret.
Just as you are about to order the ship closer, the gunnery officer speaks up. "Herr Admiral, we are nearly out of AP ammunition. I suggest we break off before we have to rely on HE shells."
You stamp hard into the deckplating below you. No torpedoes and no AP ammo. This battle is over.
"Fine... Captain, withdraw homewards." Only a few minutes later the battle is over with you taking the parting shot with your very last AP shells. Meanwhile the British ship is also moving away from the confrontation, clearly satisfied with the battle.

As you move south you get messages from the battlecruisers coming in from the west and the group led by Grosser Kurfürst. GK's group met a single British battleship and destroyer sneaking westwards, but since they were under order to come to your rescue they didn't have the time for more than a short, ranged battle, from which the British ship could withdraw from after a few hits.

At 7:58 the line of ships turn and greet you at range, meanwhile from behind the three battlecruisers push in for all their have got to link up too. You begin to wonder what to do now.
The captain of Bayern suggests that you transfer to Derfflinger and turn around to hunt down the now heavily damaged british battleship before she links up with the suspected main force. You aren't too sure about the validity of it, and think about just collecting your forces and sneak home before more damage is suffered. Then he suggest that the battlecruisers should hunt down the other battleship as it seems to be alone, while you head home with the main force of battleships.
Sadly the zeppeliners finally had to return home and can't help you. Perhaps good now that Furious is getting closer.

So what will it be?

1) The tactical considerations
A: Follow the captain of Bayern's first suggestion. Transfer to Derfflinger and while the remaining ships retreat home you hunt down the wounded British battleship.
B: Don't risk any more damage, sail home.
C: Follow his second advise, that you order the battlecruisers to hunt down the ship GK's force met, while you manage the retreat home.

2) How to retreat home
A: Order all unassigned ships into a single force. Easy to spot, but hard to defeat, chances of stragglers might get picked off if spotted.
B: Continue as it is now, with the fresh ships in small groups and the damaged ships in a dense force.
C: Order a compelte spread of the heavy units.
D: Order an avoidance of the openings for now and sneak down towards the Dutch coast, while the British fumble about. Then at night sneak in. The force will be collected, but will not have to wait for each other as in A.

[Peasant Phill]

That's kind of an anti-climax but at least we didn't run in an ambush.

1) C: get the most of our battered fleet home. Let the battlecruisers hunt the ship down but make sure they turn home before they get to far and risk an encounter they can't win.

2) no opinion just yet. I'll give my choice after others named the pros and cons.

[discovery1]

How long does anyone think that British BB will be out of action?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Hmmmm not sure about the options you gave us, but on the side can we tell the U-Boats about that damaged battleship, perhaps they could sneak a torpedo or two into it and finish it off....

[Rodion Romanovich]

1C but don't stay too long.
2 I'm split between A and D. Without the zeppeliners it's a very difficult choice, maybe I need a dice ~:)

[Kagemusha]

1b and 2a. Time to go home and lick the wounds the battlecruisers should be very cautious.If the two other British ships gang up with the lone one they should retreat immediately.

[Ludens]

1c and 2a. Time to go home and lick the wounds the battlecruisers should be very cautious.If the two other British ships gang up with the lone one they should retreat immediately.
I agree. Though I'd like to take the battleship out, the British are probably too close for us to get away with that. As for going home, the Furious will give them an edge in scouting so lets not get spread up. I would prefer D as it is less predictable, but the Furious' planes will spot this maneauvre and they'll cut us off from home.

1C and 2A it is.

[AggonyDuck]

Actually I need to look over at the things again.

[Flavius Clemens]

What's the ammunition situation on the battlecruisers? If OK then 1 C, but if they don't have enough to face the battleship and have a safe reserve to make a fighting retreat if reinforcements turn up, then 1B.
2 A - safety in numbers. Too much could happen during the day to make D safe, time to get home repair and re-equip.

[AggonyDuck]

My guess is that the two battleships that we're hunting now are of the Revenge-class. So lets analyze the relative strengths of one Revenge-class battleship vs our battlecruisers. Please correct me if I've misunderstood something. Also with belt armour, I refer to the maximum width of it.

We have Derfflinger, Hindenburg and Von Der Tann left, while Seydlitz and Moltke are out of the fight.

Von Der Tann has a belt armour of 250mm and eight 11.

Derfflinger has a belt armour of 300mm and eight 12 inch guns.

Hindenburg also has 300mm belt armour and eight 12 inch guns, but one turret is knocked out at the moment leaving us with six 12 inch guns.

So we have a total of eight 11 inch and fourteen 12 inch guns.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets see what the alone British battleship presented in option C has. My guess is that it's one of the Revenge class. The ship propably hasn't lost a turret and isn't heavily damaged.

The Revenge-class is armed with eight 15 inch guns in four turrets. It has a belt armour of about 330mm.

So as you can see while armour wise we're pretty equal, but when it comes to guns we're inferior. Although we outnumber his primary guns by 22 to 8, we need to remember that our guns are a lot smaller and thus have shorter range. Also our shells are smaller and have less penetration too. What this means is that we might see our shells bouncing from their belt armour, while theirs will do considerable damage if they hit and that the Brits can start shooting earlier and get the first critical hits.

While we may actually have a chance and potential to sink a Revenge-class battleship, it would be done with considerable risk. For example imagine what a hit on Von Der Tann would do?:

-------------------

Anyways there would really be only two options to really sink that ship. Either we go for plunging fire from a long range to hit the weaker deck armour or we close in the distance so that we can actually penetrate their armour.
The first option involves a lot of luck and prolly will still have trouble to sink the ship, while the other is almost suicidal.

So I say lets keep our battlecruisers intact and save them to fight for a better day. We've already lost a lot of turrets and I have no wish to see us lose more. Also at the moment our battlecruisers are one of our few remaining weapons available to disrupt the flow of supplies running through the English Channel.

So my votes are 1B and 2A.

[Kagemusha]

Very good post AggonyDuck.Im convinced.I will edit my answer on the original post to 1b.:bow:

[Kraxis]

Nice analysis...

But remember this.
Said battleship appears to have been the one to have borne the brunt of the damage suffered against Prinzregent Luitpold. That Warspite had nearly been sunk by 15 hits of these guns at Jutland, and her armour is comparable. Meanwhile your battlecruisers, including Von der Tann, managed to soak up 15 inch hits to a great extent.
That Lion had a hard time firing at Dogger Bank because three German battlecruisers ganged up on her, obscuring her vision.

It isn't that bleak if it comes to a fight (if they can find it).

[Kommodus]

I'm confidant that three of our battlecruisers could take out one heavily damaged British battleship - quite easily, too. But that's not the issue here. This battle has gone on for a long time, and without our zeppelins to scout, risky moves such as this are no longer wise. We don't know where the British reinforcements are, but it is likely they are not far off, and they'll be numerous, fresh, and hopping mad. It's time to go home. So 1B seems the obvious choice.

The second one is harder, and this is where I wish I knew more about naval warfare from this era. I sort of assumed that at this point we'd be able to return home unopposed, unless there were British ships in hot pursuit, which there aren't. The openings through the minefield should be clear, right? Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Thus, the choices seem to be a trade-off between concentrating our forces and hiding from the British. If we spread out we're less likely to be spotted, but a concentrated force is better able to defend itself if attacked. So what's more important at this point - staying concentrated or staying out of sight? To complicate matters we have option D, a sneaky and risky course of action. It delays our return to port, which is a problem if the British do spot us, but it's a chance to do something the British don't expect.

At this point I'd rather not be all spread out. So it's down to A or D. With A I'm worried that if the British simply sail straight on in the direction we were retreating, they'll crash right into us and wreak havoc. With D I'm worried the planes from the Furious will spot us and we'll be pinned against the Dutch coast.

So I'll very tentatively pick 2D. I think it's worth it to try a little deception - I'd hate to be too predictable.

[AggonyDuck]

Well I might be pessimistic in my analysis, because the German battlecruisers are actually something of a mix between a battlecruiser and battleship. We could perhaps sink it, but I don't think it would be an easy prey. It's really a question about if we want to damage our battlecruisers to sink a battleship.

[Franconicus]

:2thumbsup: Excellent chapter, Kraxis. Although a landlubber like me does not understand everything of this cock and bull story
1) The tactical considerations
B: Don't risk any more damage, sail home.
Hate it, but I guess it is the best option. Both enemies are wounded and this has to be enough for the moment. Let's prepare the final battle!
P.S.: I am sure our subs know that there are wounded Brits out there, aren't they?

2) How to retreat home
B: Continue as it is now, with the fresh ships in small groups and the damaged ships in a dense force.
This should give us flexibility and fire power.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I want to change 1C, 2neutral to:
1B, 2A

[Uesugi Kenshin]

1) C, but don't let them stay out too long, they need to return home.
2) B

[Ludens]

1C and 2A it is.
Sorry, I misvoted. I meant 1B. We don't know how close the British are, but they won't have been sitting still and with us fanning out they will have gained a lot of distance. Also, their battlecruisers are faster than ours and I do not fancy to become the hunted myself.

My vote for 2A still stands. Our damaged ships are too sluggish to get far from our previous course before the Furious' planes will catch up with us, so 2D is too risky. Let's keep thight and concentrated.

[Lord Winter]

1B 2B

Didn't Napoleon say: March divided and fight concentrated?
To me 2A seems like we're putting all our eggs in one basket. If the British were to rally, they could still deal a fair amount of damage to our fleet, D seems a little extreme and C poses too much of a chance of the two British battleships damaging some of heavies.

[Franconicus]

:laugh4: Quoting Napoleon as an expert for naval warfar. That's a good one :2thumbsup:
However I agree. We must keep flexibility and fire power.

By the way, is the furious really scary? The planes are WW1 ones. Can they do any damage to our ships at all? Or are we running away from a shadow?

[Flavius Clemens]

:
By the way, is the furious really scary? The planes are WW1 ones. Can they do any damage to our ships at all? Or are we running away from a shadow?
I doubt their bombs would do much to any of our armoured ships, but the scouting range they give makes it easier for the RN to find us. So as far as I'm concerned we're not running from the Furious but from the fleet it could bring down on us. (I'm assuming that significant reinforcements have sailed down from Scapa Flow by now to replace the sunk and damaged battleships.)

[King Kurt]

Why does everything happen when I go away!

We should head for home - the BB is badly damaged, so no need to sink it and risk more damage to ourselves.
As for the retreat, I would go for 2B - the quickest and the safest altough I am attracted to 2D, but it seems to complicated.:2thumbsup:

[AggonyDuck]

Hmmmmm, I definately need my fix. I keep checking the forums every two hours or so in hope of a new story. Argh, I'm hooked on these interactive histories, really brings out the armchair general/admiral in me. :oops:

[Kraxis]

I'm here... I'm just building up my strength... It is harder than you think to develop two independant but intertwined stories at the same time, and also remembering options not to forget making it plausible.

I'm just a bit tired. In general it takes 4-5 hours to write the two chapters, so I'm sure you can understand if I'm not going to jump headlong into writing them.

I would rather slow down than burn out and leave this unfinished.

[Flavius Clemens]

I'm just a bit tired. In general it takes 4-5 hours to write the two chapters, so I'm sure you can understand if I'm not going to jump headlong into writing them.

I would rather slow down than burn out and leave this unfinished.

Keep up the good work. As you say, better to change pace than burn out!:bow:

[AggonyDuck]

I'm here... I'm just building up my strength... It is harder than you think to develop two independant but intertwined stories at the same time, and also remembering options not to forget making it plausible.

I'm just a bit tired. In general it takes 4-5 hours to write the two chapters, so I'm sure you can understand if I'm not going to jump headlong into writing them.

I would rather slow down than burn out and leave this unfinished.

I know, my comment was actually more about the fact that I can't wait to get my hands on the next installment. I truly love the work you've done with this interactive history and it's certainly one of the best things at the .org at the moment.

Anyways sorry if I might have appeared demanding, it's just that this is truly great fun for me and I've started to read a lot about 20th century naval warfare. Keep up with the wonderful work.

:2thumbsup:

[Kraxis]

You didn't appear that way, I just considred it timely to mention what was going on, or rather what wa not going on.

[Kraxis]

Finding a Way

The three battlecruisers soon join you and all of you head towards home. Fearful of the British main force you decided to return home and now all your ships are going at their best speed south. But you own ship is 'limping' a bit because of the damage she suffered in the fight with the British battleship.
You wonder what happened to it, if it made it or perhaps if it floundered short after the battle? You don't know, but you do know that it likely suffered more damage than you did despite the more hits.

Below decks the crew fight to control both fires and some smaller leaks. While this effort will take many hours yet, and not even likely to end before getting to harbour, the ship is fairly safe.
But you don't feel safe with the Bayern only doing 16 knots, out of ammo and quite damaged.
At 9:01 you finally see the plumes of smoke from your previous group as they come rushing at you from the west. A quick order later they turn south. You don't want to risk them in case the British catch up with you.

As the clock ticks past 10:00 and you are still lumbering south, with plnty of distance to cover before you are relatively safe, a couple of little specks are noticed from the northwest. For minutes they don't sem to close, but then they rise up. They are planes, and they are rising up to get a better view of the force. Furious...

For a while the planes move back and forth, as if trying to make out other groups in the area, but finally they settle on following you. Clearly noticing the lower speed you can make.
Knowing that Furious will be traveling with the main force you can deduct the range to them by estimating the flighttime of these planes, and when they finally leave you the results are depressing. The British should catch up with you before you reach safety, but not long before.
To anticipate this you rearange the ships so that Grosser Kurfürst and Baden in the rear with Ostfriesland ready to take up a position guading them while the battlecruisers and light cruisers stand ready to rush to the aid of the battleships, and with you and Bayern in front. A very defensive formation that is meant to refuse the British in case they might try to fight you. But if push comes to shove you can't stop them.

As the hours pass you can not only see the planes on almost permanent station to your rear, but soon the telltale sig of ships is there too. Large plumes of smoke from hard pressed engines. The British are coming.
At this point you become glad that you hadn't directed the fleet to sneak down to the Dutch coast. There the entire fleet could have been trapped and possibly even destroyed. It would have been a disaster, and if you didn't get killed there, you would likely have been urged to commit suicide when you got home. You shudder at the thought of what you had been about to do. But the immediate concern is equally troublesome as the British are clearly gaining on you at a rapid pace.

Some time around half past noon a British airship pops up to your rear and latches on to you. Meanwhile you have ordered your own zeppelienrs away, becasue of the risks from the British planes. You feel a bit cornered.
And finally at 13:34 the first British ship opens up after changing its course slightly so that the next ship in line can also fire at you as they gain the range.
Baden returns the fire as best it can but Grosser Kurfürst is simply outranged for a while yet. You do not want this to go on, so you order a general smokescreen. This seems to confuse the British spotters, and they don't even come close to hitting your ships. Meanwhile Baden has the first British ship bracketed in her ladder, this quickly leads to a straddle and then a hit, for a while she keeps this up and manges to get another three hits in, but then, just as she is about to fire her first volley, Grosser Kurfürst is struck and soon three other British ships open up. Five versus two, you are in trouble.

You pace the bridge as you try to make out what is going on back there. You contemplate turning away to starboard, but it would only lead you away from safety. You are forced to play your only tactical card at this range, the battlecruisers.
You order them to fly to the port going across the British line and forcing the first ship to obscure the next ships. This they do to your utmost satisfaction. The entire reason for this hinges on the British being slightly skittish, and unwilling to accept the losses suffered from such a crossing of their 'T'. And for what seems like ages the British just plow on, disregarding the batlecruisers asif they were torpedoboats. The splashes around the first British ship almost blankets it out. But meanwhile Grosser Kurfürst an Baden are both struck a number of times. You are running out of time. The little plan has failed, and you are about to recall the battlecruisers to form a line of battle, an go down in a blaze of glory, when finally the first battleship in the line turns to starboard. Becasue they now present larger targets that don't move as much the first two British ship are struck repeatedly, but their rear turrets coming into action punishes your battlecruisers for their insolence of taking battleships on in an uneven fight. You see Hindenburg soak up at least four hits and Derfflinger three. You let them linger a bit, forcing the British to continue the turn withhe next ships, then you order them to speed with all haste to the south and rejoin you.
The British, having been in close proximity to each other are thus forced to sail on he new coure for a while to not risk collisions as they turn once more. This buys you precious time to increase the distance. Almost an hour after the first British turn they are back in range but once more they need to find the range. This time you let Ostfriesland fall back and line up with the other two battleships, and together the three of them let the British pay dearly. With a few volleys the leading British ship is forced to fall out of line, no longer returning fire, apparently a few hits knocked out her turrets, though she retains her forward position offset from the line. The British line then reforms slightly, letting the two next ships in the line for up in line next to each other. Together they center their effort of Ostfriesland and the direction they got from the flying spotters pays off hugely as your poor ship get a nasty pasting.

For another half an hour this keeps up, the two British ships getting a punishment fitting for their position, but their concentrated and effective fire on Ostfriesland eventually brings results. Suddenly she veers sharply after a hit to her rear. Quickly she communicates that her rudders don't respond any more and fears that this might be the end. Her unfortunate turn brings her forward turets into the game and their accurate fire strikes home on the second British ship with spectacular results as her upperforward turret blows up. You can even see debris flying from this range. At once she breaks off.
As you continue to flee, you send a message to Ostfriesland: "All Germany will know Your sacrifice and gallantry. We will never forget You."
The response is clear, "For the Fatherland!"

From a distance you see the uneven battle as Ostfriesland continues to sail in circles, fires spreading across her hull. As you watch the British moving in for the kill she blows up in a brilliant orange fireball... Clearly the fires reached her ammobunks and she died a military death for ships. This unfortunate event proves to have positive results in that the British are forced to call off their chase for the risk of running into sunken debris. You are finally free of them, but at a tremendous cost.

Early night you return to the harbour with your spent force. Waiting for you are the rest of the fleet neatly tucked into their positions. Around you the large ships look beaten, not mentally but physically. Practically every ship has been damaged to an extent. You won't be able to sally out with any significant force for some time. So you need to go over other possible options.

What will you do?

1) Operations
A: The battlecruisers did fairly well in terms of damage and should be ready soon again. Launch them through the Kiel-channel and attack the British convoys north of Denmark.
B: Load up Betruger and a few ligh cruisers and torpedoboats with mines and mine the entrance to Hartlepool and the Thames.
C: Do nothing at all. The crews are tired after os many battles and tense moments since you took control of the fleet. They have deserved a break.

2) The secondary units.
A: Reactivate them. You are runnign low on ships. These might not be worth much in a battle, but they might have other active uses.
B: Reactivate only a portion of them. Specifically the light cruisers and some armoured cruisers.
C: Don't activate any ships. They are after all sailing coffins in case they should mee the British.

3) The invasion plans
A: You have lost part of a battalion of infantry, but that is hardly anything given the numbers that will eventually arrive. Plan new invasions.
B: Plan raiderattacks (shorter attacks with only infantry and on smaller scale).
C: Send the infantry away to the front. Your invasionplans are bust anyway.

[AggonyDuck]

Thank you for the new chapter! Albeit it was a grim one for us. ~:(
I have a feeling that the Kaiser and the Admiralty won't be pleased with the results. So we better deliver something good to them soon.

1) Operations
A: The battlecruisers did fairly well in terms of damage and should be ready soon again. Launch them through the Kiel-channel and attack the British convoys north of Denmark.

I feel that we need to stay active and continue with the offensives, so A is my choice, because we can't afford to lose more light forces. Although from what I remember the convoys running through Jutland were usually escorted by heavy units after 1917. So we need to only pick fights we know we can win and use the speed of the battlecruisers to our best advantage. Speed is definately our most potent weapon at the moment and we need to use it to the fullest.

2) The secondary units.
A: Reactivate them. You are runnign low on ships. These might not be worth much in a battle, but they might have other active uses.

It's time to do this and especially the Deutschland and Braunschweig-class pre-dreadnaughts are armed with rather big guns, that will have their uses. They should be useful in operations close to the Bight, were their speed isn't such a liability. Although we should propably put them on rigorous training to improve gunnery and overall morale of the crews.

3) The invasion plans
Can't say really, will leave it to the others to decide what to do with this.

Strange that the British battlecruisers didn't really make a clear appearance in this fight.

Also I think we should do something about Furious. We definately need to eliminate it somehow or otherwise our fleet actions are quite positively doomed to fail.

[discovery1]

Wow. That was terrible. We are down how many BBs now? At least two from this operation alone.... We could be dead though....


What to do....

1) attack with the well off BCs. They are fast and should be able to run in and run out if they get into trouble, right? Also I wouldn't be surprised if they British have their guard down in the light of our mauling.

2)Reactivate the old ships, at least the light cruisers if we are short on manpower.

3)B, maybe. Keep the raids small, very small. I'm more worried about loosing light ships then loosing the men.

[Kagemusha]

Auch!We took some beating it seems so.~:( The British got us in the run. Hmmm.. How possible is that they dont follow us right in the end and try to finish us off?Attack our harbour and bomb our Zeppelin hangars?To options:

1) Operations
A: The battlecruisers did fairly well in terms of damage and should be ready soon again. Launch them through the Kiel-channel and attack the British convoys north of Denmark.

We need to continue our Operations or the morale of the men will go down the toilet.But very cautiously.If the British planes see us we have to turn away ASAP.

2) The secondary units.
B: Reactivate only a portion of them. Specifically the light cruisers and some armoured cruisers.

We need light forces from where we can get them as soon as possible.

3) The invasion plans
A: You have lost part of a battalion of infantry, but that is hardly anything given the numbers that will eventually arrive. Plan new invasions.

Keep the troops to keep the Kaiser happy.We can plan as much we want but we dont have to execute the plans if we see that its stupid waste/impossible.

Now this is getting very exiting.Thanks for the fix Kraxis!:bow:

[Flavius Clemens]

1) A. Can't afford to risk the light forces, but keeping up pressure on the Brits from another angle will be good. However as others have said, these have to be raids where the odds are well stacked in our favour, so back to base if planes show up.

2) A. Any help we can get. As the main forces will be taken up with repairs for quite a while we should be free to concentrate some time on gunnery practice etc for the older ships. However if the modern fleet needs any replacement crews (once those rescued from the lost vessels have been allocated to the surviving ships) they take priority over keeping the older vessels crewed.

3) I was about to opt for B, but I can see Kagemusha's point for A. So I'll chew this over for a while before committing.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

1) A, let's sink some convoys to distract their heavy units from the fight.

2) B, we are really low on light cruisers, so let's go for it!

3) B, small raids will be less expensive, and harder to guard against than one massive raid.