Interactive History V: The Duel of the Sea

[Lord Winter]

1) A Lets try to support the coming offensive by straining there supply lines a bit.

2) A They could be useful to divide the Brits forces

3) A,B If we get a chance lets pull off any attacks we can if we get an chance to stage a large scale range, thats good, but small raids will also help to divert troops and ships from the main fight.

[Rodion Romanovich]

1A - They probably think we're headed for the British mainland for a raid, and we need to stay active.
2A - We need light forces, so the ships in B must under any circumstances be activated. As for heavies, I think it might be worth it to have some of the old ones reactivated at least in the meantime while most of our primary battleships are damaged, but when the damaged ships are repaired we might as well deactivate them again.
3A - Sending them to the front is to admit defeat. Smaller scale raids will probably achieve nothing for a great risk of losing both ships and the ground forces. We need to stay calm and then get a real raid going once we're ready.

[King Kurt]

Why so glum - I think we did OK - we have sunk several BBs and damaged a lot more. True we have taken some licks and have lost a couple of ships, but that is inevitable.
1 - Send the battlecruisers on some convoy raiding with an emphasis on keeping out of trouble - hopefully this will attaract attention from our real target - the Channel.
2- Reactivate all the other boats - the light forces will be useful and the old pre drednaughts could be used as block ships in our large Channel raid

3- Start planning raider attacks - this can be part of channel raid.

Finaly Kraxis, can we have a breakdown of what we have available and when.

Any chance of an intellegence operation to find out how bad the English are hurt? - a repeat of the early morning Zep to scarpa would be good.:2thumbsup:

[Ludens]

1B: I hardly dare say this in the face of so much opposition, but the BC have done more than their share of fighting and no doubt this will repeat itself during our next actions. They need a rest. I wouldn't do to exhaust our most important units.
2B: Like Kraxis said, these units are seriously underarmoured so I am rather doubtfull of their combat effectiveness. Still, the light units would come in usefull. However, I would like to know whether they can join us should the British chose to guard the gap in the minefield again?
3A: the British will be aware of both the presence and the purpose of the Emperor's force after they interrogated the captured men, so no doubt they will increase coastal security. I therefor prefer sending in one big attack than many small ones, but this debatable. Still, I think we have to use them fast (and well supported this time) before the Emperor runs out of patience.

I second King Kurt's enquiry into the availability of our ships and the possibility of advanced recon.

[Kraxis]

I was in a hurry when I finished the chapter (was late for a movie). So I never got to put op the specifics of damages.

Ludens, the secondary forces are placed around your harbours and coastline. A few are outside the minefields, but should easily be able to sneak in, some are in the Baltic, but they have the Kiel-channel, while most are pretty nearby.

I will of course offer some options to scout. No doubt.

[Franconicus]

... Around you the large ships look beaten, not mentally but physically. Practically every ship has been damaged to an extent. You won't be able to sally out with any significant force for some time.
That does not sound good.
All right! We sunk and damaged a lot of RN ships. However, we did not stop the transfer from the Islands to France, not even close to this. We would not be able to make an attack with our big ships within the next days.

Moral is propably low. The men are tired and scared. They propably see no good in fighting again. They might revolt!!!!:skull:

1) Operations
A: The battlecruisers did fairly well in terms of damage and should be ready soon again. Launch them through the Kiel-channel and attack the British convoys north of Denmark. That is no good. Just another gambing operation where we will gain little and risk another battle with superior forces.
B: Load up Betruger and a few ligh cruisers and torpedoboats with mines and mine the entrance to Hartlepool and the Thames.
All we can do right now. This will interupt the Channel for a couple of days, do some damage and attract some of the big ships to guard the Channel. So option B. Although the crews may refise to go. However, these are only the small ships and we risk little.
C: Do nothing at all. The crews are tired after os many battles and tense moments since you took control of the fleet. They have deserved a break.
Another option; but we do not have time to do nothing. I guess the Brits are currently fixing their wounds too. Let's take the chance and attack!

2) The secondary units.
A: Reactivate them. You are runnign low on ships. These might not be worth much in a battle, but they might have other active uses.
They could help us defending the passage through the mines!


3) The invasion plans
A: You have lost part of a battalion of infantry, but that is hardly anything given the numbers that will eventually arrive. Plan new invasions.
Don't plan them, do them. Some raids against the French coast. Should be enough to support our army. We lost part of a battalion; that is nothing! The army looses more before breakfast!

[King Kurt]

I agree we have taken a bit of a pasting, but that is the nature of what we are trying to do - we are outnumbered by the order of 2 to 1 - but we must keep our eyes on the strategic long term aim - disruption of the Channel ports in support of the Spring offensive.

I believe we should now plan towards a critical strike on a Channel port. I believe that port should be Calais, the attack should be with everything we have that can float, a force led by the Betruger will land troops in the port and we will use several of the old pre-drednaughts as block ships to sink in the main channel. The approach and attack should, as much as possible, be under the cover of darkness to aid our deception and to cover our approach.

The preparations for this will take a little time, hence the battlecruiser raid on the convoys as a diversion. I would also suggest fleet manoevers near the mines as a potential diversion for the launch of the raid - i.e. when we launch the raid, it is from the apparent end of our regular manoevers.

The Spring Offensive must start soon - if it hasn't started already - so it is time for the Navy to make its contribution.:2thumbsup:

[Kommodus]

At this point you become glad that you hadn't directed the fleet to sneak down to the Dutch coast. There the entire fleet could have been trapped and possibly even destroyed. It would have been a disaster, and if you didn't get killed there, you would likely have been urged to commit suicide when you got home. You shudder at the thought of what you had been about to do.

:oops:

Ha ha, I'm retarted. I think I'm the only one who voted for that option. Nobody listen to me. :dizzy2:

Well, obviously this entire operation had rather mixed results - I think we sank four battleships in all and lost three, one of which was old. In addition, we severely damaged a lot of British ships and and suffered some pretty severe damage ourselves. Nevertheless, I think we can have most of the damage repaired in time for the main operation in the channel.

1) A

I'm tempted to pick C, since I'd rather not risk the battlecruisers, but we should do something to keep the British on their toes. I agree that this choice may keep them distracted from the channel, our real target.

2) B

The light cruisers may indeed have some use, especially since we're low on light forces, but I don't think the big ships will be of enough use to make reactivating them worthwhile.

3) Hm...

As others have said, the British are no doubt aware of our plans, or will be soon. They'll probably send some ships to patrol the coast. A small raiding force would likely be stopped cold by these. So I'd like to pick C, since we're unlikely to sneak in unnoticed. But if we spread them out a bit (using 1A) and send a single relatively large, well-escorted force, we may be able to break through their patrols, so A might work. However, this risks a lot of ships that could be trapped by British reinforcements.

I'm gonna go with C. The Kaiser won't be happy, but his hair-brained scheme has cost us enough already.

[Kraxis]

The losses and damages:

You are now in port and estimates on time for repairs can be made.

Oldenburg has been sunk (crew saved), 'old' Helgoland class ship
Prinzregent Luitpold has been sunk, fairly modern
Ostfriesland has been sunk, similar to Oldenburg
The light cruiser Graudenz got sunk with all hands
On top of that you lost 8 topedoboats and 7 minesweepers.

Baden suffered relatively few hits, 14, and her damages are fairly low as well. She will be ready as soon as the bridge can be rebuilt. Two weeks at most.
Bayern has been hit the most, an increadible 44 times, many of which were 15 inchers as well as a torpedo. Luckily many struck the belt or exploded prematurely. Her damages are surprisingly light compared to the amount of hits. Aside from the destroyed turret the replacement of armourplates is what will take most of the time. She will be out for at least four weeks, but expect more. Will be in drydock.
Markgraf has lost three turrets and has significant damages to her structure. More than a month out. Drydock.
Kaiser has substantial structural damage, but should be able to sail out if you really need it. Out for three weeks.
König was hit quite a lot and has damages that need four weeks of repairs.
Grosser Kurfürst took a lot of punishment initially, then lost a turret before finally suffering a number of hits in the last engagement. Will need three weeks of repairs. Drydock.
Kronprinz Wilhelm took relatively few hits, but they all hit in one go, knocking out her central turret and suffering a fire in her casemate. Will be out three weeks. Drydock.
Westfalen suffered a lot of damages to her driveshafts when she tried to set out. She will need more than a month of repairs. Drydock.
Helgoland suffered more damage than first appreciated. The two mines have buckled many of the watertight compartments and sent a number of hairline fractures through various supportsections. She is out for almost two months as she will need a complete overhaul. Drydock.
The remaining battleships took superficial damages and need no downtime.

Hindenburg got a nasty pasting. She took at 17 hits that knocked out one turret and destroyed a lot of superficial structures (the funnel and crane being among them). She needs at least three weeks, but she can be repaired at her berth.
Moltke lost three of her five turrets. She needs repairs for more than four weeks. Drydock.
Derfflinger suffered fairly light damage and can sail at once, but she can certainly need some time to repaint and unbend plates.
Seydlitz has suffered no direct hits from heavy guns and is ready to fight.

Both Von der Tann and Kaiserin still need some time to be finished, but should soon be ready for operations.

The light cruiser Strassburg is damaged and is out a number of weeks as her engines got seriously damaged.

Losses among the crews (of the surviving ships) have been fairly light, but even with the crew of Oldenburg being spread out to the needed positions, you still lack 889 crewmen. You have no choice but to find them among fishermen, trainees and the few remaining old veterans.
At least you took some 1500 prisoners from sunk enemy ships.

Certain enemy losses amount to:
4 quite modern battleships (including one QE class), with 1 a possible
4 light cruisers, with 1-2 possibles
5 destroyers, with another three likely and an uncertain number more possible.

[AggonyDuck]

Moral is propably low. The men are tired and scared. They propably see no good in fighting again. They might revolt!!!!:skull:


I'm not that sure if the morale is actually that low, we didn't lose that battle, but rather it was a tie. Also I believe what would actually cause a drop in morale would be inactivity.

The problem with option 1B is the fact that our destroyers are not really good sea-ships, from what I've read and a heavy sea could cause some significant damage on them, not to even speak of the Harwich destroyer flotillas. Also as it is we're extremely low on destroyers/light cruisers and if we're planning to successfully attack the channel later on with our fleet we need a lot of screens or otherwise their light forces will just maul our fleet.
That's why I'd like to avoid any risk to our lights.

[Kommodus]

Ah, so the Ostfriesland was one of the older battleships. Still, it hurts to lose 'er.

Wow, that's some pretty extensive damage we've suffered to a lot of big ships. I think I know where this operation went wrong - back on page 12 or 13, when we decided to pursue the British in the first place, a decision that, I'm ashamed to admit, I voted for. :shame: A few wiser voices, notably King Kurt and Kage, suggested returning to port, something we'd probably have been better off doing.

Well, we'll just have to make the best of what we've got now.

[AggonyDuck]

Well the initial pursuit itself wasn't too bad and it gave us our biggest success yet, but the decision to pursue the two battleships was the bad one in my opinion. It seems to have drawn us off course and the reducement of Bayern's speed to 16 knots was essential in allowing them to catch up with us.

Also what really ruined our success was the fact that we failed to trap the Brits properly at the start of the operation.

Lets just be happy that we didn't send our battlecruisers to try to finish off that one battleship, because I'm quite positive that they would had ran into the British Fleet at some point and in the worst case the British fleet would had been between the battlecruisers and the Bight.

Hmmmmm, but we need to somehow find a way to destroy Furious. The lack of aerial reconnaisance truly hurt us at the end. Atleast now it became clear that we need our Zeppelins, if we are going to have any success in our operations.

[Kagemusha]

I think now that so many of our fleet are under repairs and we cant pull of anything very big at the moment.It could be a good time to start making some devious plans to take out the Furious.:furious3: Its presence hampers our plans greatly. We need to find a way to lure it into somekind of trap.Any ideas?

[Flavius Clemens]

Going back to the chapter Nightly Attention we had the following

Prinzregent Luitpold reports ... At least the torpedoboats are getting away. The enemy destroyers are chasing a single undamaged one while three others are reduced to a crawl.

... At 0050 Prinzregent Luitpold sends her final message.
"Taking on water uncontrolled. Serious fire in the rear. All turrets out. Secondary guns still firing. Heavy losses. Bridge knocked out. Engines out. Three torpedoboats sunk, last boat to be captured. Says she will counterboard with infantry. Enemy ships both damaged.
For Kaiser Wilhelm and Germany!"
That was the end of a proud battleship, one of the strong Kaiser class. But you are at least happy that the infantry are willing to fight even impossible battles. You only wish to know what happened with them; did they win? Or were they cut down as they tried to board the British destroyers.

What if anything do we know about the results of this? Is there a chance the British have captured one of our torpedoboats in useable condition? Perhaps we could alert any of our u boats or any other vessels out in the North Sea to look out for a torpedoboat heading towards Britain, maybe in the company of RN ships so we're forwarned if they'll be in a position to try Betruger tactics on us.

As for Furious I guess it won't take much damage to leave the flight deck unusable, at least for the short term. One risky idea, on a day when there's full cloud cover try a Zep bombing raid using its gondola for targetting so it can stay above the clouds for protection. Ideally we'd time this late in the day, so that the British can't risk flying off fighters in pursuit as they wouldn't be able to land (I assume a night landing on a carrier isn't feasible at this stage of technology.) However this would probably be relying on luck to get a bomb on target. Or maybe we can try and use influence for a heavy bomber attack by the airforce.

[AggonyDuck]

Well I decided to try an count the overall losses suffered by both sides during this whole naval campaign of Spring 1918. Btw Kraxis please do correct anything I've counted wrong,

Originally we had:
-19 Battleships
-5 Battlecruisers
-17 Light Cruisers
-about 70 torpedoboats

During the campaign we've lost 3 battleships (15% of our force), 6 Light Cruisers (35% of our light cruisers) and 13 or more torpedoboats (20% or more). We've also lost several minesweepers, but can't be bothered to count them.

The british had:
-34 Battleships
-8 Battlecruisers
-47 Light Cruisers
-over 100 Destroyers

During the campaign they've lost 5 battleships (14% of their force), about 11-13 of their light cruisers + HMS Glorious (about 25-30% of their light cruisers) and 16 destroyers (~15% of their destroyers).

So as you can see percentage wise we're quite close to them, albeit we've lost more by the percentage. Also I bet they're also starting to feel a lack of light forces, especially because they need destroyers for convoy escorts too.

[King Kurt]

It would seem from the damage report that a major operation will not be possible for 4 weeks, so we should plan and train for our Channel operation then. By our damage report the English will be hurt at the very least as bad as this, but most likely worst - after all they lost 4 - probably 5 modern ships to our 3 - 2 of which were older boats - in the last operation.

During the next 4 weeks, I think we should do the following:
1) Train and prepare for the Channel attack. Especially as we have some new recruits.
2) I think we should do the battlecruiser convoy raid - it will keep the Admiralty and the Kaiser happy by being active and will shift attention from our real objective the Channel - it will also make the English commit forces to protecting the convoys.
3) We should carry out as much recon and intellegence as possible to find out where the English are and how badly they are hurt.
4) We should hunt the Furious with our Zepplins. A cunning plan would be to attack the Furious with our gun armed Zeps - they will be able to hold off the fighters and do some damage. We will hold a second force of Zeps off just over the horizon. When the fighters have to land - my info on the fighters were that they were single shot as landing was virtually impossible - we attack with the second force with bombs etc - we don't have to do much damage to put her out of action.


Finally a note on the Ostfriesland - she was the first battleship to be sunk by bombing when the US used her as a target ship in 1921. Billy Mitchell used her as PR exercise to show the value of air power. Despite just sitting there it took a great effort over 2 days to sink her. So her role in history is quite important.:2thumbsup:

[King Kurt]

Kraxis - I have been through the posts and have redone my tally. Can you confirm my totals - where possible - are right.
German BBs - 11 ready for sea, 5 more in 4 weeks,4 more after that
German BC's - 2 ready for sea, 3 in 4 weeks
That gives us 16 BBs, 5 BCs in 4 weeks time

English - 9 - possibly 10 BBs sunk.
Difficult to estimate the number of English damaged - especially after the confusing night action - but it must reasonable to assume at least a dozen - that would put the English at about 20 - 25 capital ships.
Thanks :2thumbsup:

[Kraxis]

KK, you forgot the three sunk BBs, and that the remaining ships are for the most part old ships. In fact a large percentage of them are of the first Dreadnought class Germany had, the Nassau class.
You only have 6 BBs ready with no need to repair, of those 3 are of the Nassau class. Kaiser can, if pressed, put out but I wouldn't say that would be wise.

You are not certain how many British ship have been sunk, you have 4 confirmed sinkings, and only another that you can imagine has gone down.

[Flavius Clemens]

At least you took some 1500 prisoners from sunk enemy ships.
QUOTE]
Any captains among them? If so it would be interesting to speak to them before they're shipped off to POW camp to try and gauge our enemy and pick up any intelligence we can(as we did when we captured a Russian general in history IV). Proper respect for fellow officers and gentlemen and tribute to their courage of course.

[QUOTE=King Kurt]4) We should hunt the Furious with our Zepplins. A cunning plan would be to attack the Furious with our gun armed Zeps - they will be able to hold off the fighters and do some damage. We will hold a second force of Zeps off just over the horizon. When the fighters have to land - my info on the fighters were that they were single shot as landing was virtually impossible - we attack with the second force with bombs etc - we don't have to do much damage to put her out of action.


I really doubt the gun zeps ability to hold off fighters, and if we're close enough to shoot at Furious we'll be in range of the british flak. I'd far prefer a stealth attack.

What I would suggest is doing all we can to improve AA defences at the Zep base, in case of bombing raid.

[King Kurt]

KK, you forgot the three sunk BBs, and that the remaining ships are for the most part old ships. In fact a large percentage of them are of the first Dreadnought class Germany had, the Nassau class.
You only have 6 BBs ready with no need to repair, of those 3 are of the Nassau class. Kaiser can, if pressed, put out but I wouldn't say that would be wise.

You are not certain how many British ship have been sunk, you have 4 confirmed sinkings, and only another that you can imagine has gone down.
I went on the original count of 24 BBs - which must be where I went wrong - what would our BB count be in 4 weeks - will more than 5 be ready? I thought we had lost 4 BBs since the begining of the campaign - have I missed some?:2thumbsup:

[AggonyDuck]

English - 9 - possibly 10 BBs sunk.
Difficult to estimate the number of English damaged - especially after the confusing night action - but it must reasonable to assume at least a dozen - that would put the English at about 20 - 25 capital ships.
Thanks :2thumbsup:

They have at best lost 6 battleships during our campaign, but I guess the correct number is five. To assume that we have sunk anything else that is not confirmed is just folly.

Also Kurt the mistake you did was this 19 BB's+5 BC's= 24 BB's ;)

Edit: Kraxis could you check if my count of unit losses is correct? I'm sure that atleast the assessment of light cruiser and torpedoboat losses is not completely correct.

[AggonyDuck]

Here is a list of the current amount of battleships on both sides, made it to help myself get a proper assessment of the situation, but figured it could help everyone get an idea of relative strength.


British Battleships:

Bellerophon class: 21 knots
1. HMS Bellerophon
2. HMS Superb
3. HMS Téméraire

St Vincent class: 21 knots
4. HMS St Vincent
5. HMS Collingwood

Neptune class: 21 knots
6. HMS Neptune

Colossus class: 21 knots
7. HMS Colossus
8. HMS Hercules

Orion class: 21 knots
9. HMS Orion
10. HMS Monarch
11. HMS Conqueror
12. HMS Thunderer

King George V class: 21 knots
13. HMS King George V
14. HMS Centurion
15. HMS Ajax

Iron Duke class: 21 knots
16. HMS Iron Duke
17. HMS Marlborough
18. HMS Benbow
19. HMS Emperor of India

Queen Elizabeth class: 24 knots
20. HMS Queen Elizabeth
21. HMS Warspite
22. HMS Valiant
23. HMS Malaya

R-class: 21 knots
24. HMS Royal Oak
25. HMS Revenge
26. HMS Royal Sovereign
27. HMS Resolution
28. HMS Ramillies


German Battleships:

Nassau class: 20 knots
1. Nassau
2. Westfalen
3. Posen
4. Rheinland

Helgoland class: 21 knots
5. Helgoland
6. Thüringen

Kaiser class: 22 knots
7. Kaiser
8. Friedrich der Grosse
9. Kaiserin
10. König Albert

König class: 21 knots
11. König
12. Grosser Kurfürst
13. Markgraf
14. Kronprinz Wilhelm

Bayern class: 22 knots
15. Bayern
16. Baden

[Ludens]

Gentlemen,

As I will be gone from the Org for a couple of days and cannot participate in the discussion, I have to withdraw my votes. Still, I'd like to add a few comments:

I am favour of some quick action against easy targets, but I think we should rest our battlecruisers for now. They have been invaluable in the previous battles and should be allowed some time to recuperate.

Though I agree destroying or disabling the Furious is an important secondary objective, I doubt the zeppelin attack is going to succeed. It depends on the British spending all their plans to ward off the first attack, but if they don't our second attack is going to fail as well (provided the flak doesn't get them first). Guns or not, zepelins are big, easy targets and no match for fighter planes. I am willing to sacrifice one or two to get rid of Furious, but not more. Do not forget the Brits have zeps as well.

Also keep in mind that if we pull crew from the secondary ships, morale and efficiency on those will be low. Not that I am against it, but we should remember this if we plan to use them in offensive action.

[AggonyDuck]

To be honest damaging the flight deck of Furious with Zeppelins is darn risky and can cause considerable losses to them and even then a flight deck can be repaired quite quickly. What would be better is to find some way to sink that darn thing with submarines, mines or surface ships.

[Kagemusha]

We need a bate and suprise attack. So we need to put a bate(Zeppelins) somewhere near the coast.To draw the Furios near the coast so we can possibly attack furious from land aswell,also then we can use AA fire and our own planes against its planes.So we need to start some minor business somewhere far from British coast.Draw their intrest in there.:listen:

[Flavius Clemens]

Orion class: 21 knots
9. HMS Orion
10. HMS Monarch
11. HMS Conqueror
12. HMS Thunderer



Although it wasn't named, reading between the lines I thought Orion was the ship a U boat sank after our first battle?

[Rodion Romanovich]

A small attempt at guessing possible actions from the British now:

1. full scale attack - they might know we're badly damaged and overestimate our losses. They might thus try to get a huge fleet together and sail through the gap and raid our harbors etc., to finish off our damaged ships. That attack could well be supported by Furious.
2. small groups ready to intercept smaller raids from our forces and unite quickly if there's a chance of a new large scale engagement with our forces, maybe they'll also carry out limited raids, for example against the zeppelin base.
3. they know about our raiding plans and are defending the British coast. Keeping some ships in hidden positions and others in positions ready to cut us off when we get close to the British coast.
4. something else - what?

In all of these cases I think the best idea for an offensive action is to raid a Baltic convoy. We need to work hard with recon to be prepared for a British attempt to get through the gap or an attempt to raid the zeppeliner base, the most likely actions IMO if they decide to carry out any offensive actions at all. We probably need to keep our available BBs ready a bit inside the gap to be prepared to defend it, or if necessary go and try to engage Furious if it tries a raid against the zeppeliner base (but in the worst case the British send Furious to raid the zeppeliner base as a diversion and then charge through the gap...). I think our best chances of destroying Furious lie in either a submarine conveniently happening to pass by (unlikely ~:) ), influence allowing us to get some bombers, or simply patiently wait until we find a good chance of isolating her.

[Kraxis]

Although it wasn't named, reading between the lines I thought Orion was the ship a U boat sank after our first battle?
Of course I can't tell you which ship it was, I can tell you this much: It was certainly one of that class.

[Lord Winter]

I think any raid must be aimed at the Baltic for a couple reasons:
1. It will be unexpected if we are right and they know that we were trying to raid the channel then like Leigio said they might have forces waiting to cut off our retreat.
2. The Baltic will be less protected because of the reasons stated above,
3. If we make it appear like we are trying to sever the link with Russia they might be forced to move part of there fleet to protect it taking preasure off any fueture operations in the channel.
4. Making an effort to cut of supplies in the north might make the allies move more troops north.

[AggonyDuck]

Although it wasn't named, reading between the lines I thought Orion was the ship a U boat sank after our first battle?

Oh, I seem to have missed that sinking. Thanks for correcting me. Even puts us at a 6-3 dreadnought sink ratio. :2thumbsup:

[discovery1]

3. If we make it appear like we are trying to sever the link with Russia they might be forced to move part of there fleet to protect it taking preasure off any fueture operations in the channel.

Minor point but Russia is out of the war and we have mined the straits of Denmark. The convoys are coming from scandinavia.

How far is the minefield from the zep bases at its closests approach? And what is the range on the Tommie planes? Can they make it to the zep base without crossing thru the gap?


but in the worst case the British send Furious to raid the zeppeliner base as a diversion and then charge through the gap...)

Am I thick, or is this not going to happen because the zep base and the gap would be defended with completely different assets?

[AggonyDuck]

How about using their own impetiousness against them and luring the Grand Fleet in to a freshly laid minefield?

I think we do have the minelaying capabilities for this and the only real trouble is placing the minefield in the proper location. It has the potential to be quite devastating in my opinion and a very cheap way to hurt the british fleet.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Am I thick, or is this not going to happen because the zep base and the gap would be defended with completely different assets?

I thought this would be dangerous if we're tempted to withdraw our defense of the gap to intercept a raid on the zep base, and they then get through the gap.

@AggonyDuck: That sounds like a great idea. Could we make a U-shaped minefield inside the gap? We could defend the gap with 3 to 6 BBs, then no reinforcements close enough to make them possible to reinforce until in a few hours. This could make the enemy think they can successfully charge through the gap and defeat the small force we've put to guard it, but once inside past the gap when they start turning to present their broadsides to us, they'll run into the mines. The U shaped minefield should cause real confusion, as they'll run into new mines if they turn back to the course they had when passing the gap, and then if they turn into the other direction to present their other broadside, they'll also run into mines. Every attempt to turn around 180 degress will hopefully also make them run into at least one of the edges of the minefield. What do you think? A U-shaped minefield a bit inside the gap, and a bait consisting of some of our own ships just inside the own new minefield? How close to the gap can we get our minelayers for a successful minelaying operation? Ideally it should be just a few kilometers inside the gap. Something like this:

******------********
------------------------
------------------------
-----*----------*-------
-----*----------*-------
-----*----------*-------
-----**********------
------------------------

[Kagemusha]

I think AggonyDuck has an idea.Maybe that could be part of our grandcheme.Can somebody provide a map of the North Sea with the location of our base and possibly some of the convoy routes?:book:

[AggonyDuck]

I don't think we'll see the Brits charging through the gap anytime soon. What I'm talking about is using our fleet as a lure and draw the Brits straight in to a minefield in the North Sea. But of course it would be best to do it where we know the Brits will come. I think perhaps the best location might be west of Dogger Bank, although the problem with it is actually getting the minefield there.

Also I've been playing with the idea of mines a bit more. Seeing that we're reactivating the older light forces atleast, how about equipping them with some sort of mine-laying capabilities? This way when we're being pursued by the Brits as normal we can get our lights to drop drifting mines in our wake. It's a win/win situation really. Either the Brits sail straight towards our mines or they change course buying us distance and time.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I just remade my calculation for distance to horizon depending on altitude over the sea. It turned out that I overestimated the recon ability of Furious last time I made the calculation. First of all it was mentioned above that Furious' planes can't land on the deck after operations, meaning they only have limited ability of keeping planes in the air. Secondly, the distance to the horizon only increases by a few kilometers if you reach the altitudes the ww1 planes can reach, which means little when the distance to horizon is of the order of some thousand kilometers. So it's only by patrolling the planes to cover great distances that Furious can be more effective at recon than ordinary surface ships. In fact, the zeppeliners are in most cases more versatile recon tools. The Furious' planes can only do short distance reconing for a short time. The zeppeliners and airships can however do long time reconing over large distances. The only problem with Furious then, is that it's fighters are a threat to our zeppeliners' scouting and spotting abilities. But in all other roles it's a pretty harmless and unimportant ship IMO.

[Kagemusha]

But combined with British Zeppelins its very dangerous.The British Zeppelins can spot as far as ours and can call furios to drive away our Zeps with its planes.:bow:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, that's of course a good point, but so far they haven't taken advantage of that possibility ~:). One of the things I've been thinking is that if the British can't land planes on Furious after a sortie, then they will probably only launch the planes of Furious if they're close enough to a friendly landing spot, and in emergency cases land launch their planes if they're close to enemy or neutral territory where the fighters can make emergency landings if they were needed to be launched in order to defend Furious. Also, if Furious is too far away from any landing spot at all, they'll only be able to carry out very short sorties before having to fly away home to land again. The question is - if Furious in order to reach a target has to sail over a piece of Ocean where she for a moment will be too far away to be able to reach land with the fighters, would she still launch the fighters to defend herself in the case of a zeppeliner attack? What is the range of their fighters - how close to land do they need to be to be able to use their fighters before having to turn them home? Just brainstorming a bit...

The other possibility is to try and make them launch all their planes and then turn them home, then when all fighters are gone we can attack with the zeppeliners. But for regular usage I guess their strategy will be to keep the main reserve at the deck while sending only a few up for scouting and other operations. How could we get the main reserve to launch? Afaik they haven't seemed overly impetuous and eager to launch their planes for taking part in the battles, but then we only have a single retreat battle to judge from. Also, I got the impression that they only sent part of their plane reserve away for scouting and were calm enough to keep some planes on the deck. Also there was this hint about Furious with it's single turret taking part in that night battle a bit back - it seemed like Furious was still disciplined enough to keep the fighters left on the deck even there. So our enemy seems clever enough to understand the value of at all times keeping an emergency reserve of fighters on Furious even when they start operating with their fighters.

Those methods - either forcing all Furious' planes to take off, or finding a situation where they won't launch their planes, are as I see it the two possible ways of creating a scenario where our zeppeliners could be able to approach and damage them...

Edit: a third way of countering Furious would be a strategical level one. Due to the impossibility of landing on Furious, they'll be forced to go home each time they've used all their planes. That's interesting, and means we can, by trying to count the planes they send after us and compare with the capacity of Furious, predict every time Furious will probably be turning home, or if it doesn't turn home immediately, we can know that if we meet her she'll not have any (or at least not many) planes available on her deck, which would mean a zeppeliner attack would be possible.

[Kagemusha]

Those are good points Legio. Somekind of plan is starting to develop in my brains.~;) First i like Duckies idea of giving mine laying ability to some of our ships.That way we could make a minefield undetected while sailing towards a target lets say a merchant convoy.
So what do you think of plan like this:
phase 1:
We send our AA gun armed Zeppelins to scout for good convoy.If British send their own Zeppelins to check what our Zeppelins are wondering around,we use the suprise and destroy the British Zeppelins we encounter which should be easy with those AA guns.By that we enforce the British to send Furious to drive away our Zeps.We prepare an fleet in the range of the Mine field so we can finish them up if they sail into that.Our Convoy raiding party attacks the convoy spotted by our Zeps before.That way they will create a distraction and the British should deploy majority of their naval vessels to drive them away.
Phase:2
Becouse our Superior spotting range our Zeps should be able to see Furious from distance.Then we start retreating the Zeps into direction where our Convoy raiding party has made a mine field.And if we are lucky Furious and her escorts drive straight to it.Then our main fleet comes in and makes sure Furios and her escorts will go down in the bottom of Sea.
Phase:3
If lucky by now Furious is destroyed and our main fleet can cover the retreat of our convoy raiding party.Also with Destruction of Furious we control the Air and can spot any attempts of British to entrap us.

What we need for the plan to be succesfull is to have enough capacity of mine laying and find a spot where the rough Sea wont tear our minefield a part.That spot should be also be near of a merchant convoy route.:bow:

[AggonyDuck]

It is possible to land on the Furious, because the ship has two decks. One for launching and one for recovery. Also that could not have been Furious shooting from it's single turret, because it was removed in the refitting started in late 1917 and finished in march 1918.

[Kraxis]

It is possible to land on the Furious, because the ship has two decks. One for launching and one for recovery. Also that could not have been Furious shooting from it's single turret, because it was removed in the refitting started in late 1917 and finished in march 1918.
Actually no... The initial carrier work was started in late 1917, but the rear turret was only removed around the time we have reached... Obviously the need for an operational Furious has forced the Brits to use her now.

[AggonyDuck]

From the Royal Navy's home page:


Her large size and excellent speed made Furious an obvious choice to operate aircraft. In February 1917 her forward gun was replaced with a flying off deck. In a remarkable event on 2 August 1917 Squadron Commander E.H. Dunning landed his Sopwith Pup on Furious' flying off deck, the first aircraft to land on a ship. A few days later Dunning tried again but was killed when his aircraft went over the side.

As a result of Dunning's accident a landing on deck was built on the stern in late 1917. This was not entirely successful because of the unpredictable wind currents caused by the superstructure amidships.


Furious was recommisioned with two operational flight decks in 15 March 1918 and she went back to dockyard for this already in late 1917, so by the time of March 1918 it would propably not have that aft turret left. But anyways doesn't really matter, the lack of a flight deck should work to our advantage.

Also what is the current date?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok damn then most of my thoughts were useless... Kagemusha at least has a good plan, if we can only manage to lay those mines.

Edit: ok new posts were made while I was writing this... with the new info I'm very confused about which of my thoughts are useable and which aren't...

[Kagemusha]

So Kraxis can we build mine laying abilitys to our older light forces.We could carry out the first raid via Kiev canal to irritate British.That would only make them think that the second one is only more bold raid on the North Sea and they will fall in our trap more easily.~;)

[Kraxis]

Many of the ships are already attached to minelaying efforts as floating depots and such. Some are already minelayers.

[Kagemusha]

Ok thanks for the info m8!~:) Now we have to wait if the others like this little plan.~;)

[Flavius Clemens]

On Furious' aircraft:

This http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ships/FURIOUS.html refers to her commisioning as a seaplane carrier. It may therefore be the recon units are seaplanes, and can land at sea an be winched back on board.

Have also found this account of Furious's raid against a Zeppelin base using Sopwith Camels http://www.casey.tgis.co.uk/web/dfc/tonder.htm. (also see its link to the operational orders for the mission) It does sound like the returning aircraft were expected to ditch and be picked up rather than land on Furious. What isn't 100% clear to me is whether the 7 Camels were the total complement Furious could carry, or whether there were others available for the pilots to use on return to the ship.

As a rough guide to operational range, based on the map on the site, taking off near Havrvig to bomb at Tonder must be approaching 200 miles round trip (based on the not exactly naval source of AutoRoute giving the road distance between the two as 83 miles).

[Rodion Romanovich]

Damn I made a mistake when calculating distance to horizon this time too. The distance to horizon increases dramatically with the altitude over the sea. The sopwith camels with an flying altitude of up to 4000 m can, assuming clear weather, see up to 200 km, while the bridge on a ship (assuming it's 70 m up) can see only 30 km. But anyway the flying height of the zeppeliners should still be comparable to or better than the camels for scouting range.

[Kommodus]

Regarding a zeppelin attack on the Furious: I really don't think we should try this. All we'll manage to do is lose a lot of zeps. Their newly-mounted AA guns will not give them the ability to take on enemy fighters, only enemy airships. They'll simply be big, slow targets for the British planes. Even if one gets lucky and hits the Furious with a bomb, it'll probably only do minor damage which will quickly be repaired.

Regarding luring the British into a minefield: the idea of luring them into a U-shaped minefield just inside the gap might have merit, if the British are still trying to get in there. But we have to make sure it doesn't compromise our ability to get out. Remember that minefields will drift with the movement of the sea; we wouldn't want to lose track of mines we've layed in our own water. IMO we should only try this as a last-ditch effort.

For the same reason, we would be unlikely to have much success simply dropping mines in the wakes of our "retreating" ships. Don't you think that if this tactic had any chance of success, it would've been used? The reality is that the odds of a British ship actually striking one of the dropped mines is probably very slim: it's not like dropping an oil slick in a racing game. The mine would drift and the pursuing British probably wouldn't be exactly in our wake anyway. There's a reason that minefields were layed - it took a lot of mines, fairly concentrated, to have any chance of stopping a ship. So we may try this tactic, but once again, only as a last-ditch, desperate gamble.

IMO, we should try to get some land-based planes stationed near our zep bases to defend against possible raids by the Furious planes. If our planes are stationed close enough to the coast, they may be able to support us in sea battles close to Heligoland Bight. Of course, this only matters if the British keep the Furious close by.

[AggonyDuck]

Well basically I got my idea from Jellicoe. He was personally very much aware that Germans could drop mines in his path and even viewed them as a risk towards his ships. I wouldn't definately call it a last-ditch desperate gamble, because there simply isn't that much of a risk to us in that. It really doesn't hurt us at all to drop some mines in our wake, it might not cause damage, but if we're lucky it might. But generally we'd like to lure them into a minefield we recently laid somewhere closer to the British coasts, not inside the Bight...

Also mines could be quite deadly weapons at times, like the sinking of the HMS Audacious shows.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think bombers, subs or our surface ships are the safest ways of dealing with Furious. However subs weren't under our control, and bombers require influence - do we have enough of that? And the surface ships aren't ready for a larger-scale sortie yet.

[Kommodus]

Well basically I got my idea from Jellicoe. He was personally very much aware that Germans could drop mines in his path and even viewed them as a risk towards his ships.

Really? Well then, I stand corrected. I knew that it wouldn't risk our ships to drop mines in their wake, but I didn't think it had much chance of hurting the British either.

Let's get some mines on our ships then! They might've helped us in that last desperate escape.

[Franconicus]

Some notes to the Furious:

- The fighters it carries are Sopwith Camels. Their max. altidute is 6.400m. Max. raising speed is 5,5 m/s. If I am right then it takes at least half an hour to reach max. altidute. Maybe more.

Some notes to our Zeps:

- In March 1917 the army stopped all flights of Zeps. We should ask to get them with the crews.

- The navy had a special version (R-class), extra long, with higher operational altidute. They could raise upto 7.600 m, although it was very could there and it was hard to control the flight.

- The Zeps could be equipped with a pulpit. Therfore it could operate above the clouds and still see what is going on below.

Based on these datas we could try and start an attack. We have to wait until the sky is clouded. Best time to attack is dawn and of course we have to know where the enemy is.

Approach over the clouds, with some of our R class zeps, without guns. They can attack the Furious before the Camels started. Then, when the camels attack, let them raise and get altidute. I think it should be possible to escape, raising so high they cannot follow. If I understood Kraxis right, then the Camles are not able to land again. The Furious and the escorts will be busy to save the pilots. Then our second wave should attack. The rest of our Zeps, attacking with bombs and guns. With a little luck we will be able to damage the Furious, destroy some fighters with little casualties. We just have to make sure that we are above the clouds.

Another thought: Could we use the Zeps to lay mines? A night mission over the Channel could be very effective.

However, I do not think that this is enough. The goal is the traffic in the Channel. Although our big ships are not able to do anything now I still vote for a raid of our smaller ships. Aren't the Brits weakened too? I guess their big ships are at their homebase preparing for the next strike, too. So let's use this opportunity, start a group of our small ships with the Betrueger and a small alnding force and let's start to gamble. The target could be some of the Franch ports.

Please do not let us waste time chasing some convoys from the Scandinavian.

To the mine game: We should open another path for our ships first. This would give us some nice opportunities in case the Brits will try to penetrate. We could block the old one with mines and our old ships while the new ships bypass them and get into their rear. We could also bomb them. Getting bombed in the middle of a mine field :dizzy2:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Interesting find on the rising speed of the camels. As for raiding the channel now, I think we need to do more scouting there before trying anything. I think the RN will have good readiness in the channel, and they might succeed in trapping our force between the channel targets and our home ports. That's why we shouldn't venture into the channel until we've got some of our damaged ships back in action and have some kind of diversion. Hopefully the convoy attack will be sufficient diversion - a few zeppeliners scouting the channel from high altitude a cloudy day could tell us if that assumption is correct, and then we could launch a small raid into the channel. But not without neither scouting nor diversion, it's too risky and a good way of losing ships and men for no gain.

[King Kurt]

We must be careful not to get diverted with Furious and mines - they are sideshows in comparison to the Channel attack. My view is to go for 1 massive attack - I believe we can reach Calais under the cover of dark if we leave at dusk and, with luck be back at base before the main fleet can get down from Scarpa.
We must get as many ships back as possible, we must train and we must recon. The convoy raid will distract. A raid on Calasis with our whole fleet with block ships and troops we stand a good chance of leveling it - making a substanial impact on supply to the western front.
So - no dilution of force and let us keep our strategic aim clearly in focus.:2thumbsup:

[Rodion Romanovich]

I agree, it could be one of the first things to do after the convoy attack. But right now it feels like an attack there is the first thing the enemy will expect. And we also have had extremely little recon the last few chapters - we need a good overview of things so we don't need to guess so much about enemy strength and distribution!

[Franconicus]

I agree with KK. Let's not waste time and resources for anything else than an operation against the Channel. Let the convoy be!

Recon is o.k.. We need that for the big bang! However, nothing more. The Brits have to guard the convoy anyway, what good will it be to attack it?

[Rodion Romanovich]

The idea I had behind a convoy attack was to destroy some enemy escorts. If we destroy them, the RN will have to move a few from the main reserve there. The convoy attack might also act as a diversion. But IMO the diversion effect is not worth the loss of our cruisers so we should make a careful convoy raid and make sure we get out of there alive as main objective, even if it means we deal no damage at all to the British.

[King Kurt]

Yes we do need to be cautious with the attack on the convoy - its purpose is to distract attention from our real target - the Channel. The battlecruisers would over power or out run anything they come up against and it would pull resources to the Baltic and hopefully their attention. Also, I think we need to keep the pot boiling while we lick our wounds and get some BBs back in about a month's time - also it would keep the Admiralty and the Kaiser happy while we prepare for the main event.:2thumbsup:

[Kagemusha]

How are we diverting our forces when we cant launch any big Operations in four weeks?If one sits on the place of the British side.What is the most propable action for us to take? Ofcourse a major attack to Channel.Do you guys think that the "one big blow" is the only thing to do.Couple points here.First we are outnumbered.Second the Channell is British home water.Third with Furious they have an edge we dont have, also In the channel the Allies will attack us on land.What is so great about the attack on enemy territory where and when enemy exactly expects us to do just that. Do we have somekind of magig trick that will prevent the British to lock us in the Channel and destroy our fleet.If we raid the Scandinavian convoys we get the enemy to atleast diverse his forces to protect the convoys.Those who keep talking about the one great attack in a Channel port please explain how we are supposed to achieve that without loosing our entire fleet?

[Flavius Clemens]

The idea of luring the fighter defence away from Furious is interesting and might be our best chance to neutralise it. If we try the bombing we need to do it with the best cover we can get, and need to bear in mind the comments on bombing accuracy in this post https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=63423&page=2
- actually scoring a hit will be as much a matter of luck as skill.

But we are dependent on some recon in advance to know where it is, or we risk the Zeps blundering around without success.

Whilst the Channel is our overall objective, we need to do whatever we can to stack the odds in our favour when we do throw the decisive punch. So, there is benefit in wearing down the British forces on the convoys, and getting Furious out of our way. Recon superiority will be very important to us.

[Franconicus]

What do you think about our moral. We had some problems in the beginning. We solved them and had some success. However, recently we had some severe losses without a strategic success. Don't you think the sailors could refuse to go into combat? Should we give them a break to recover? Or is this exactly the wrong thing. Keep them busy and they will be quiet??

Kraxis, can we get a report from the military police?

Kage: The Channel is our only strategic goal. Everything we did so far was just preparation for that. We made some strikes, however, the situation has not improved much and after all we have lost the time. Another diversion to to fight the convoy will mean more losses and more time lost. It could also decrease our moral if we have more losses or if we have to retreat because we see that the convoy has a strong escort and we want to avoid casualties.

What is the best case scenario: we attack the convoy, we sink some light escort ships and the enemy is forced to send some cruisers to screen the convoys in the future. What is the worst case scenario? We meet a strong escort, loose more ships, loose moral.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes but I think the worst case scenario is unlikely. We should of course do some scouting with the zeppeliners first if we can. Only move in if it's clear.

As for bombing inaccuracy, it now strikes me that zeppeliners have got to be a lot more accurate than bombers, actually. The bombers have to take into account a fast speed when approaching the target, the own angle of approaching the target, the movement of the target, and how the bombs leave the bomb hatches (or what they are called). In all cases, the bombs will have a horizontal drift apart from the simple movement downwards by gravity. However the zeppeliners can hover almost completely still and in a controlled manner eject the bombs without causing any horizontal drift. It should be much easier to calculate where they land, and much more time for them to do so (the bombers haven't got time to calculate precisely when they're moving in towards the target with their extreme speed).

But IMO the bombers still have a very interesting role. If I'm correct, the British will be more scared of bombers than of zeppeliners bombing Furious. The bombers would be an excellent way of drawing fighters off Furious's deck, the zeppeliners would be an excellent way of dropping the actual bombs that do the damage. So I suggest a plan with two waves of attack - one with bombers, then one with zeppeliners. We should choose a cloudy day, flying in the zeppeliners over the target with high altitude somewhere above the clouds. If the first wave is the quick bombers mentioned earlier in this thread (by Franconius?), then they can get away without being threatened by the camels. So this way we save the bait zeppeliners that would otherwise be lost if the first wave was zeppeliners. What do you think?

Some extra details for the plan: assuming the British don't pursue the bombers, we can still bomb from a high altitude where the zeppeliners are safe, or choose to withdraw so the trap isn't revealed. We could also send in the bombers a second time if that happens. Assuming the British do pursue the bombers (letting one or two bombers feign damage by flying more slowly for some time could be interesting...), everything is clear for our zeppeliners to move in. If the camels get wind of that and turn back, our zeppeliners just climb to safety at high altitudes. We can also then perhaps send the bombers back on a second raid.

[Kagemusha]

Kage: The Channel is our only strategic goal. Everything we did so far was just preparation for that. We made some strikes, however, the situation has not improved much and after all we have lost the time. Another diversion to to fight the convoy will mean more losses and more time lost. It could also decrease our moral if we have more losses or if we have to retreat because we see that the convoy has a strong escort and we want to avoid casualties.

What is the best case scenario: we attack the convoy, we sink some light escort ships and the enemy is forced to send some cruisers to screen the convoys in the future. What is the worst case scenario? We meet a strong escort, loose more ships, loose moral.

Ofcourse the Channel is our Strategig goal Franconicus San.:bow: But what i fail to see is why we have to fight the decisive battle with British Navy there.Where the ods are strongly against us.We have already seen that British divide their forces very easily.And that offers us the change to cripple their navy by picking them on in several battles rather then in one huge effort where we can fail miserably too. How i see it our Strategic Goal is to stop the troop movements in the channel.But our tactical goal should be the destruction or crippling of the British fleet,what would allow us to fullfill our strategig goal.And that my friend we can create also elsewhere then in the Channel.~;) The reason i suggested trying to destroy Furious with a minefield is that if we succeed in that.We also succeed in putting the opposite team out of balance.That would be a psycholigical victory.After that they either become Furious of loosing Furious.Or become unsure becouse they can never be sure when is the next time their ships sail into a minefield. I dont see that in the Scenario i proposed there are many risks at all.So why wouldnt we use all our options before we can continue with the big plan.If necessary we could use the Zeppelin bombing of Furious as secondary plan if we fail to lure it on the supposed minefield.:2thumbsup:

[King Kurt]

Kage

Our strategic aim has always to strike at the Channel ports in support of the Spring Offensive. Historically, the offensive nearly succeeded as the germans broke through but were halted by reserves - and allegedly by the troops surprise at the level of supplies the Allies had behind the lines in comparison to what they had due to the effectivness of the Allied blockade. But on all accounts it was a close run thing. On this basis, my view is that a major attack on Calais will cause a substanial hiccup to the Allies supply situation.

So why Calais? - mainly because it is the nearest Channel port to the front line - an attack on English ports would be farther to travel - the main docks in London would require us to travel up the Thames - and the supplies could be routed through other ports in England. Take calais out and the supplies and men will have farther to travel and there are not so many ports on the French side.
Also, as it is the nearest, we stand a better chance to slip out of our base late in the day - possibly under the cover of a routine training exercise - sail swiftly to Calais under the cover of the night, strike and return to Kiel before the English fleet can get down from Scarpa. You are right that the channel was home waters, but it only was guarded by light forces based at Portsmouth and Harwich. I don't share your thoughts that the English will assume that we will strike at the Channel - we have not moved in that direction during the campaign, we have only reacted to their presence in the Bight. In fact the Baltic convoy raid will also distract attention. I realise that there is a substanial risk in my strategy - we may loose a significant number of ships - but at the moment I can not see an alternative that will make a significant impact in support of the spring offensive. I believe we should build our strength, so go in a about a month's time - but it must be a decisive strike.
Finaly franc, I believe we have hurt the English fleet quite badly - they still out number us, but we have had the best of most, if not all of the engagements so their damage list must be more than ours - we have sunk more than they have, so the damage score must be similar - I look forward to finding out what happened in Kraxis's "after campaign" report.:2thumbsup:

Kage - I spent so long writing the above you had posted about your strategic thoughts - such a nusance when work gets in the way!! - To a certain extent I agree about the attrition of the english fleet, especially as they seem to split their forces - that was certainly my aim in the campaign so far - but now we must strike at our real aim - we can not defeat the English fleet to such an extent that we rule the waves - the numbers rule against it - in our last action, we outnumbered the english, we did a good deal of damage, but they damaged us - they can afford to loose - through sinking or severe damage - 2 ships to our 1. So the alternative is a swift strike and home - I don't want to fight the main fleet in the Channel - hence my choice of Calais, as it gives us the best chance of getting back to base before the main English fleet can interfere. we must plan carefully and recon as much as possible to support this approach.

[Kagemusha]

So King basicly we have the same set of Strategic approach but different wiew on the tacticall approach.~;) Why i think it would be good to exercise this secondary scenario is that we have four weeks before we are able to launch the main offensive.I think by launching these other operations we remain active the whole time.Also if we stay put too long and remain inactive the British will no doubt turn suspicious and start thinking we are planning something big.Also i believe it would have negative effect on our own grews morale.What do you guys think about these points?

[King Kurt]

Kage

When Kraxis first posted the options, my inclination was to do nothing. however, when i thought about it, the northern convoy raid has much to recomend it - it diverts attention away from our main target, it helps keep the initative with us - and keeps the Admiralty and Kaiser off our back - it may pull English forces towards the Baltic and it helps morale. Our battlecruisers have been very efficient, so this could be a furthur boost to their reputation. The most important thing is that they suffer little or no damage - so strict rules of engagement should be issued - perhaps our admiral should go with them.:2thumbsup:

[Kagemusha]

That is good to hear.I also believe that our Admiral should go with them.Now i cant wait the next episode of this wonderfull game.Lets play some Battleships~:cheers:

[Franconicus]

Why i think it would be good to exercise this secondary scenario is that we have four weeks before we are able to launch the main offensive.I think by launching these other operations we remain active the whole time.
Remaining active is not a goal itself. We were passive for a long time and had our success. I still do not see the benefit of this action.

Also if we stay put too long and remain inactive the British will no doubt turn suspicious and start thinking we are planning something big.
Or they think we are defeated. They know we had casualties and may think that we lost our will to fight.

Also i believe it would have negative effect on our own grews morale.
Moral is an issue. I think that we fought enough and that the crews need some time to relax Furthermore we had sever casualties and the crews may think they get sacrificed in senseless battles. Let them rest and then let them sail to the desicive battle. Once again, we cannot loose more ships. If we send a small group to the convoy and they are taken by surprise the damage is too high. Do not forget that the air dominance is British!

Another thought. Our Zeps may not be the best bombers, but I guess they can carry some load. Could they be used for a mining operation. This would open a bunch of opportunities. We could through some mines into the Channel in an night operation. This would cause some chaos. The Brits would stop the traffic for some days they would search for the mine layers etc. We also coud try to block Scapa during our Channel raid. Additionally we could lure the RN into the minefield and then seal the exit.

If we could recruit the Zeps of the army, they are off duty anyway, for such an operation :2thumbsup:

[Rodion Romanovich]

The army zeppeliners sounds like a great idea Franconius. Do you know how many there are of them?

Also, are you sure the zeppeliners are worse bombers than planes? From what I can understand, they would be easier to aim with. But I'm basing that conclusion only on my own reasoning, and I might have forgotten to take some factor into account...

[Lord Winter]

IMHO we can not afford to engage the British fleet in a war of aeration. For the British to win they really just need to keep the supply lines open between France and England. For us to win we need to support the spring offensive in anyway possible, and I agree that raiding calisis would be our best chance to deal a blow to supplies and morale.

As for the zeppelins if we are to try an aerial strike we need to make sure the zeppelins can handle a bomb and still achieve the altitude we need to guarantee there safety. So lets arm one with a bomb and do a couple of practice runs.

[Kagemusha]

Im sorry to say this.But are we fighting against imbesils?Do you guys really think that they dont think supporting spring offensive as important us?If we are playing against humans,which i have had some doubts that we actully do.Do you think that we are playing against people that know nothing about history?The time is about right for our offensive and you guys really think it will come unexpected?Please Gentlemen,have some respect towards for the opposition.:shame:

[Peasant Phill]

Some info on zeppelin bombing

From http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWzeppelinraids.htm


Zeppelins could deliver successful long-range bombing attacks, but were extremely vulnerable to attack and bad weather. British fighter pilots and anti-aircraft gunners became very good at bringing down Zeppelins. A total of 115 Zeppelins were used by the German military, of which, 77 were either destroyed or so damaged they could not be used again. In June 1917 the German military stopped used Zeppelins for bombing raids over Britain.

from http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers_zeppelins.htm. Mind you they are talking about city bombing in the year 1915, later on navigation may have improved but ships are a lot smaller.


Navigation was very primitive, and as the war progressed the British use of blackouts made it even harder. Bomb aiming was far from accurate. It is estimated that only 10% of the bombs dropped from Zeppelins actually hit their target.

There are lots more sources but they all say the same thing. Zeppelins were able to bomb cities (found nothing about ships) but had more impact psychologically than physically due to low accuracy (and cities aren't a small target now are they). So I have my doubts if they are able to hit a ship or even a fleet without decending to an altiyude that makes them risk being hit by AA guns.

furthermore I'm not covinced that our zeps would be safe from HMS Furious' planes:

from http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers_zeppelins.htm


Towards mid 1916 the British planes were armed with a mixture of explosive and incendiary bullets. This mixture would prove to be deadly to the airships: the explosive bullets could pierce the Zeppelin's tough outer skin and cause leaks on the inner gas bags. The incendiary bullets could set those leaks on fire, and once on fire a Zeppelin was doomed.

besides new planes were able to climb to the operational height of zeppelins. For example the sopwith camel "comic" nightfighter was used as a defence against zeppelin attacks on Britain. And isn't this a variant of the planes used by Furious? I couldn't find modifications to the original model that would allow better performance so I assume the planes on Furious are as able. Even if the zeps can reach a higher altitude it is unlikely that they could bomb successfully from that height.

All in all I don't believe in a zeppelin bombing of Furious or any other ship for that matter. They are just to inaccurate and still vulnerable to planes.
Let them drop mines but don't expect miracles and certainly don't expect them to be accurate at all.

[AggonyDuck]

Also, as it is the nearest, we stand a better chance to slip out of our base late in the day - possibly under the cover of a routine training exercise - sail swiftly to Calais under the cover of the night, strike and return to Kiel before the English fleet can get down from Scarpa.

Lets actually look at what you're suggesting at the moment. There is a good chance that the the English will be aware of the departure of the Hochseeflotte, when we go past the minefields. The second thing is that it will be expected eventually, they just won't know when, meaning that the only advantage of surprise we have is the ability to choose when we do it. There will hardly be a doubt about this, especially if the whole fleet sails west. Although we have the advantage of being closer to the target than the enemy, the problem is that they can nicely be there to intercept us. Especially when the Brits have a distinct advantage in speed. The Nassau's have 20 knots in top speed and I can hardly imagine the blockships going faster than 15 knots at best.

But on the other hand we can use it to an advantage that the Brits will be racing fast to the south and lay a minefield on the western side of the Dogger Bank.

Actually I have a plan, how about this:

We divide our fleet to two taskforces, 1. The Raiding Force and 2. The Minelaying force.

The first one should consist of our battlecruisers, the Bayern's and the Kaiser's. This force should have a speed of about 22 knots, which allows us some advantage in speed and thus time. It should also include our most modern and fastest ships. We could eventually attach blockships to this force, but they should generally be quite fast blockships.
It should race down to Calais, make the place a mess and then run for it.

The Minelaying force consisting of the Nassau's, the Helgoland's and the König's and various minelaying vessels head for the western side of the Dogger Bank, where they drop as many mines as possible in the waters around there. The Dogger Bank and England make a natural bottleneck for seafaring over there. After dropping their mines it gets the hell away from the area and starts pulling back towards the Helgoland Bight, but stays somewhere close to the coast of the Netherlands to support the fleeing Raiding force.

The faster Raiding Force should have a small advantage of speed over the Grand Fleet, which effectively leaves it to face the enemy battlecruisers and the QE's to face them. If the QE's and the battlecruisers actually manage to pursue us, then we can lead them straight in the arms of the fresh minelaying force, which should be able to overwhelm that section of the enemy.

The only problems I can see with my plan is that if the Grand Fleet gets to know it in before hand and already is on the way towards the Channel when we sail off or if they decide to head straight for the Helgoland Bight while we're going towards the Channel. In that case they can easily stop us from reaching our port, but it is not the logical choice to do when an enemy is down in the English Channel.

Also if need the extra punch we can attach the Königs' to the Raiding Force, but this reduces the speed to 21 knots and weakens our minelaying force. We could perhaps have the König's bombard Harwich port, to help reduce the destroyer flotillas there.

[Peasant Phill]

For what my opinion is worth I really like this plan. As you said the only problem is that they are waiting for us but should be able to avoid with some scouting and keeping our plan as secret as possible.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I also like the plan very much. Maybe we could succeed in getting a zeppeliner to scout Scarpa again to be sure to counter the one weakness in the plan? To be absolutely sure, let's send two or three zeppeliners to approach Scarpa from different directions to be absolutely sure no problems that a lonely zeppeliner could run into would venture the entire operation...

Here's some further suggestions on a whole battery of deception and diversionary operations we could carry out on the actual day of the action, for a minimum cost in numbers of own resources drawn away from the main action:
- Could it be possible to send a few zeppeliners to drop bombs over Scarpa, from high altitude? Even if it wouldn't hit anything, it could scare and confuse the British a bit... It could also make our enemies think that we made a miscalculation and that we actually thought it would have a physical effect, causing some overconfidence...
- If it's cloudy, we could send a couple of zeppeliners over a British convoy the same morning we raid Calais, to drop a few bombs over the convoy. If the bombs hit the water near the convoy it might look like straddling shots from our ships, and might draw the attention of part of RN.
- Sending a few fake radio messages

This would account for drawing away only 5 zeppeliners or so while it could theoretically achieve some good results... Together with the plan suggested above, it would be a real mess to the British. First of all they get a dilemma on whether to go out to help the convoys, then some chaos in Scarpa, making them both confused and angry, maybe making them divert a force (Furious perhaps?) to pursue the zeppeliners at Scarpa. Then they get wind of a Hochseeflotte sailing out through the minefield, or - in the best case - that Calais just got levelled :2thumbsup: ... When they finally make up their mind on going south, they'll hardly expect any more tricks, but in fact we have an ace up our sleeve in the most powerful trick of the entire operation - the minefield. Assuming the worst, RN will somehow know of the minefield, and be able to circumvent it. If so, our diversions and advantage of sneaking out during the night may delay them enough to arrive not until our two forces (minelaying and raiding force) have joined, in which case we'll have a great chance of escaping without taking too much damage. But hopefully RN will sail into the minefield, and we can shell them while they're captured among the mines. If we get the 38 (115-77 = 38 ~:) ) army zeppeliners (I would like to save most of the R class navy zeppeliners for scouting to get a good coverage) and some bombers for the operation, we could drop zeppeliner and plane bombs over them while they're inside the minefield to add to the destruction and confusion... As usual when the opponent tries to approach us, we'll cross their T for a while. But thanks to the minefield, we'll put them in a situation where they can either turn around to get out of the minefield (thus we cross their T for a very long time), or present their broadsides for a normal engagement but run into more mines because they're still left in the minefield...

[Franconicus]

Peasant, excellent information about Zeps.:bow:

Aggony: excellent plan!

I agree that it may be foolish to bomb ships with our Zeps. However, what about a mine raid?

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine
Drifting contact mines
Drifting mines were occasionally used during World War I and World War II. However, they were more feared than effective. A drifting mine is simply a floating mine without any mooring. Sometimes floating mines rip their moorings and become drifting mines, but modern mines should be constructed to deactivate themselves if this happens. However, after several years at sea, the deactivation mechanism might not function as intended and the mines may remain active. Admiral Jellicoe's British fleet did not pursue and destroy the outnumbered German High Seas Fleet when it turned away at the Battle of Jutland because he thought they were leading him into a trap. He believed that the Germans either were leaving floating mines in their wake, or were drawing him towards submarines. Both dangers were imaginary - the German fleet did not carry any mines.
These mines usually weighed 120 kg, including 80 kg of explosives (TNT)

If we could get the 38 army zeps and equip them with 16 mines each we had in total 600 mines. If we started them at France or Belgium during night and lay the mines in the Channel, near Dover or the Thames river, the problems with navigation, accuracy and air defense should not be big hurdles.

Drifting mines have the effect that they are soon everywhere. And the Brits had some bad experience with driting mines at Gallipoli, if memory serves.

This operation would have
no risk for us
slow the supply down
bring chaos
make the Brits withdraw big ships from the Channel
attracts their attention from our ships (maybe they will think we gave up and try it another way)

We could repeat this operation for about a week, before the Brits realize where the mines come from and when their counter measures start.

Then our big ships are ready and we can proceed as Aggony planned.:2thumbsup:

[Rodion Romanovich]

That's a good idea, it's one of the best things we can do during this expected period of inactivity for our main surface forces. I think we should launch the operation as soon as possible.

Just one thing though: from some data I just found, 16 mines might be a bit pessimistic. The army zeppeliners apparently could carry around 9 tonnes, which means 75 mines per zeppeliner, and the R class navy zeppeliners could carry 40-50 tonnes, which means 333 mines per zeppeliner. Assuming we use the 38 army zeps we would then get not 16*38, but 75*38 = 2850 mines, which is *really* good :2thumbsup:

Edit: many typos ~:(

Edit2: btw one thing I'm wondering about is that if the mines are dropped, they might detonate when they hit the water surface... Maybe we need to descend almost to the surface to be able to drop them...

[Kagemusha]

I really like Aggony´s plan.About the divertion.Maybe afterall we should arm and men the old dreadnoughts and create a third force out of them and deploy them as an fake attacking force for somewhere else.Some English port maybe between Scapa and Calais.Im pretty sure they would be lost but that would give us lot more time to move and Operate around the main target.And also lay the minefield to protect our flank.

[Flavius Clemens]

Interesting ideas. One key question is whether the British continue to keep a strong force aggresively patrolling the Bight as they have been doing. If so trying to slip past them at night en route to Calais will be a risk. If we run into them even if we outrun or fight our way past them they will be able to alert the rest of the fleet. So recon of the Blight will be important.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Indeed, but if they repeat the keeping of a force of 11 BBs or less in the Bight, we can just repeat what we did last time, but this time do it right - press them harder towards the minefield, then not pursue them. The main operation might then be postponed a bit, but probably not more than 1 day at the most. Maybe it can even be launched that same day...

[Ludens]

There some great ideas in here, but we should avoid making the same mistake as last time: trying to do too many things at once and ending up unable to support each group. Also, we really should not try to use the zeps offensively: against the convoy it will only call in Furious' planes and at Scapa Flow it will alert the British to the fact that we can see their base. So my votes are:

1C Yes, I know a diversion is part of the plan, but this should happen shortly before the attack, so I propose to wait and let our crews get some R&R until the situation is known and our plans are made. I also don't want to have our attacking force bump into the British should chose to guard the gap.
2B For reasons mentioned above
3A

[AggonyDuck]

Just one thing though: from some data I just found, 16 mines might be a bit pessimistic. The army zeppeliners apparently could carry around 9 tonnes, which means 75 mines per zeppeliner, and the R class navy zeppeliners could carry 40-50 tonnes, which means 333 mines per zeppeliner. Assuming we use the 38 army zeps we would then get not 16*38, but 75*38 = 2850 mines, which is *really* good :2thumbsup:


You forget that weight is not the only factor in carrying capacity, but size is a very important factor in limiting the carrying capacity.

[Rodion Romanovich]

That's a good point... How much space is there in the gondola of a zeppeliner? Also maybe it's possible to consider hanging a few mines below the zeppeliner in a long, sturdy rope, with good distance intervals between them. So I think we can take advantage of quite a lot of the carrying capacity anyway.

[Peasant Phill]

What zeppelins do we have and what will the army give us?

This is a complete list of all the German zeppelins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Zeppelins

[Rodion Romanovich]

We have all the R class zeppeliners minus a few (2-3 I think) that have been shot down. The army has 38 zeppeliners that we don't know at all whether we can get or not, Kraxis has yet to give his permission, but considering that the army stopped using them after their heavy losses in the bombing raids, we could maybe convince the army to give them to us.

[DemonArchangel]

Wait... about Calais... couldn't shore batteries from both sides of the Channel hit us?

[AggonyDuck]

Yes, that'a true.

[Franconicus]

Wait... about Calais... couldn't shore batteries from both sides of the Channel hit us?
Do not worry. A German squadron passed the Channel during WW2 and had no severe casualties. What worries me more are mines. The Entende laid a lot of mones in the Channel to prevent sub attacks.

However, the Channel is our goal and we will not hesitate to risk our ships and the lifes of our sailors to cut off the supply lines and help our army to achieve final victory.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg/500px-Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg.png

[King Kurt]

I like agony's proposal - I am worried about splitting our forces too much, but the idea of a fast raiding force for Calais is a good one. However, I think this will follow the next episode - so Kraxis - any chance of playing battleships a bit more??
Also - let us not get too obsessed with Furious and Zeps etc - disruption of the supply lines is key, not elaborate plans to attack Furious.:2thumbsup:

[Kraxis]

R&R

You feel significantly more tired than previously after battle, but then again, this latest battle was also much longer. The night you spend deep asleep in your quarters in Wilhelmshaven. And when you get up the next day you body still tell you that it is tired, but you put it off. You need to coordinate the efforts here.
At first to give the order that you drew up back in january, recomission the old ships. This will give you 8 pre-dreadnoughts, 3 armoured cruisers and 8 light cruisers, of which 2 are already able to carry respectively 80 and 100 mines (though Brummer was built to carry 400 mines from the start).
With a fury you begin to coordinate the repairs of the ships. Basically all the facilities are filled with damaged ships needing repairs and you are forced to use all your knowledge ofthe ships to assign them the best positions and repairs. But in the end you manage to get repairs for all ships that need them.

Standing atop the cleaned open bridge of Baden you look out at the remains of the ready fleet. It is a depressing sight... The harbour feels almost empty with so few ships. But at least the light cruisers are surprisingly prominent, and in the late afternoon the new Wiesbaden sailed out on a short shakedown patrol. Now you have three ships of the powerful Cöln class light cruisers. They can become vital later on.

Patrols from the island of Heligoland confirms that the British have vacated the Bight as well. Likely they are also heavily damaged. But you can't take advantage of that now, with your lack of battleships. Chances are that the British can beat whatever you send to sea with their battlecruisers alone. Not a pleasant thought. No, you need to wait until you can fight properly again. But at the same time you really don't want the British to rest on their laurels, you want something to keep them on their toes, to keep up the stresslevels in their high command.
At the moment there is hardly any options to du damage to the Brits, but one. That is to raid their convoys from Scandinavia. They are likely to be well guarded, but also rather big as they want to get as many ships over in one go as possible.
So you begin to form up a plan to raid a convoy.

A simple plan quickly forms, three battlecruisers strike out through the Kiel-canal, up the Danish straits, lie in wait off Norway waiting for a convoy, then strike and head home. No escort and no zeppeliners. Quick in and quick out.

As you wait for a third battlecruiser to be ready you sit down and think about the landings. The small fast landing towards Hartlepool got discovered and almost wiped out, but you are firm, you want to carry on, and by now all three entire regiments have arrived. In fact Kaiser Wilhelm called you to make sure you remember his wishes. You can't help but wonder why he is so determined to get landings, but then again you have heard he is being sidelined by the generals. So obviously anything he might influence he will do his best to control. You fear this powerstruggle will hamper your efforts to sever the Anglo-French connection.
One plan that the commanding officer, Oberst Carl von Brackenau, has proposed is simple and pointed. Load up the entire force in the commerce raiders and gun directly for East Anglia. One regiment going for Hartlepool, one for the central areas and one taking out the small ports and coastal batteries along the Thames coast.
You don't really like such operations and have considered a landing in Kent by a single regiment carried on battlecruisers. There they will avoid the fortified southern coast but hit the many storehouses along the southern shore of the Thames.
There are other operations possible too, but you decide to not work more on them until you get back from the raid.

On the morning of the 17th of March Von der Tann is finally ready for another strike. While she is not finished you have directed the efforts to made on her vital areas, leaving the less vital areas to be fixed onboard while she is operational. As such there are 46 technicians onboard when she, Derfflinger and Seydlitz enter the canal during the morning.
Leading the strikeforce from Derfflinger you head towards battle once more.
But just before you left port you sent a request for the Army zeppeliners to be transferred to your control. You foresee heavy losses among your own zeppeliners, so the Army zeppeliners can become vital. You could have requested this transfer previously directly to the Admiralty, but you simply haven't got the strength to deal with them and their relentless attacks and questions right now.

During the day your force sail up through the Danish waters, through the minefields laid out, and just as you pass the island of Anholt, you are approached by a Danish patrolboat.
It demands to know what is going on. And for an hour you do your best to get it to not send a message to the Danish authorities, as that would uncover your intentions to the British.
To your luck the Danish commander is a reasonable fellow, and he is willing to come aboard Derfflinger to discuss this over dinner. Meanwhile you are forced to remain in place.

The young Lieutenant-Commander is transfered from the small Danish vessel, and hequickly and deftly crawls up the net provided to the crew of the boat sent to get him. He waves away any helping hands and basically jumps over the railing standing right in front of you. His smiling face gives off his awe of the great battlecruiser, but as he notices you he comes to attention and salutes you, both you and the small honourguard respond in kind, then you offer him your hand, which he heartily shakes.
As you walk to your cabin for the dinner the Dane surprises you being fluent in German.
"So... what is your real intentions in Danish waters?"
"Heh... This is international waters dear Kapitän-Leutnant."
"Ah, true enough, but Denmark is forced to keep control with these waters, given the little war you people are engaged in."
"Yes, and that is why you are here right now. Tell me, why didn't you report us?"
"Well, I have never seen a battlecruiser close up, save three, I got a little interested. I don't really believe you want war with Denmark right now as we would be a pain to your Baltic connections. Besides the ministry knows about you. The coastal spotters sent their report almost as soon as you left German waters. But fear not, all messages have been sent along cable."
So that as why he was being so cooperative.
"Aha... Then I expect that this is mainly to satisfy your curiosity?"
"Yes, I thought it would be nice."
"Then let me indulge you for a while, but you will have to excuse me if I cut it a bit short, our schedule is pretty tight."
"Fair enough Herr Admiral."

You spend the dinner munching on a nice stew of potatoes and unintelligble pieces of meat in a dark brown porridge. Despite the looks of something that is excreted from a large herbivore's hindquarters, the taste is actually rather nice, though you would prefer to not know what is in it.
The young Danish officer keeps asking about the recent battles and the capabilities of Derfflinger, and you indulge him, at least as far as it is not dangerous. Simple facts keep him satisfied, and in the end you manage to kcik him off the ship in a hurry without making it look that way.
In total you have spent less than two and half hours being still. At once you speed up to flank speed to get to Norway by daybrake.

As you pass the dark stormy waters between Jutland and Norway you feel anxious. This is a critical phase, discovery could mean destruction in case heavy forces linger in the area. So you go a flank speed with no evasive maneuvers to keep submarines off target.
Finally you reach the designated position where your spotters can see smoke from convoys passing by from Gothenburg.
This is the morning you expect the great offensive to commence, so anything and everything must be done.

Silent hours pass as your little group sit still, making sure no visible smoke is emitted. You feel impatient... You have risked some very valuable assets, it would be a serious pain if they found nothing worthwhile their effort. But the wait is long, and as the clock ticks past noon you go to your cabin to lie down and rest. You settle in and close your eyes, make a concerted effort not to see the explosions of dying ships, not hear the screams of sailors with their bodies broken and mangled, and for once you win. Everything is silent and serene for you, and you are just about to fall asleep.
Suddenly a loud noise wakes you up again... A rapping on the door.
"Enter!" You are not particularly happy at being interupted at this point.
An old weatherbitten sailor enters. "Herr Admiral, we have spotted smoke on the horizon, everything indicates a significant number of ships."
"Very well, tell the captain I will be on the bridge in a few minutes."
The sailor nods and leaves, closing the door again.

You think to yourself that you shouldn't try to await things anymore. If you want something to happen you should just make yourself comfortable, then the irony of life will do the rest. Oh well... Off to war again.

When you enter the bridge, even you can see the smoke out of the windows. The bridge is buzzing with activity, reports going back and forth. The captain atthe center of it.
"Captain, what can you tell me?"
"Initially we didn't think it was anything, but the spotters just kept adding numbers to the contact. Currently they believe it is a convoy of at least 20 ships. Speed is estimated to 6 knots."
"Are out engines ready?"
"They need a few more minutes before the boilers are warm enough again."
"Very well, when possible lets move out at best speed."

An hour later you can se that it is indeed a large convoy, 20 merchants at least and a rather strong escort. Making 24 knots towards it, there is no doubt that you will get it. And already the escort is forming up to meet you.
Surprisingly the spotters have identified three armoured cruisers and two light cruisers. That seems to be an unusual setup, strong but not strong enough considering the recent events and the results of earlier battles where armoured cruisers proved to be outdated.

The merchants of the convoy begin to scatter, while the escorts form up around the three armoured cruisers. None of the ships can damage your ships in any proper way besides torpedoes, but still Von der Tann can suffer at the heavier guns of the cruisers, so you order her to split off and chase the nearest merchants while you and Seydlitz deal with the escort.
The three armoured cruisers finally charge you, flanked by the two light cruisers, of which one is quite small. Clearly they seek to get close where they might have a hope at damaging your ships, but you simply turn to present the broadside. At 14:21 Derfflinger opens up, followed shortly by Seydlitz, and at a distance Von der Tann helps with her guns as well.
The British ships braves straddles and keep closing in as your ships get their range. The first hit is achieved before they can return fire, and suddenly everything happens fast. Von der Tann hits the smaller light cruiser and she develops a list right away, and several hits on one of the armoured cruisers sets her on fire, though obviously of no important consequences.
When the armoured cruisers finally manage to fire their guns they prove to be highly accurate, and their heavy guns quickly close on you, but you know well that their calibre is too small to seriously threaten you.

The uneven fight continues and your two battlecruisers damage one of the enemy ships enough to halt her within half an hour, meanwhile Von der Tann hunt down merchants, striking at them with her heavy guns, quickly crippling them.
The first 9.2 inch shells strike Seydlitz in her central section but they do no damage. And she continues to rip her target to pieces, until it is nothing but a flaming wreck from fore to stern. In the same time the secondary guns have engaged the larger light cruiser as she tries to make a torpedorun, and enough hits cause her to veer off her intended course for long enough to let a barrage from the heavy guns to sink her.
The remaining two armoured cruisers continue their impossible fight, and it doesn't take long before their riddled hulks are making great speed to the bottom.

You leave Seydlitz to pick up survivors while you also try to hunt down merchants.
The day ends very well, with the escorts sunk along with 11 merchants. All for the cost of 13 hits on your ships, causing no damage other than the breaking of a mast on Derfflinger. In the evening you break off the search and speed down through the Danish waters once more. But towards the end of the day the crew of Derfflinger is clearly tired, their actions are slow and they are less than happy, both with each other and their leaders. They are the end of their strength. They have simply been driven too hard for too long.
You know very well that the conditions onboard are disliked so you order the ships to keep up at flank speed to get home as fast as possible. But before you even reach the Kiel-canal several scuffles have already broken out. You suppress these harshly as you really need to keep the ships viable, at least until they get to port.

You manage to get home around noon on the 19th, only to find out that the offensive have not started just yet. But it will instead start on the 21st. Also you are informed that you have been turned for the Army zeppeliners, the generals believe that they might yet have a purpose to the army.

What will you do?

1) The battlecruisers
A: Give them a week of leave so they can visit their homes and families. Of course watchcrews will remain.
B: Give them extra rations of good food and some money so they can have fun in the town.
C: Just let them rest. This way the battlecruisers will be ready at all times shold they be needed.

2) Landings (these will not go in unsupported at all)
A: Do the East Anglia landing to get the British to look inwards rather than at the channel.
B: Land the single regiment in Kent to spread confusion and fear.
C: Load two regiments up on battleships and strike at Dunkerque and/or Boulogne, if/when the fleet finally manages to sail on the channel.
D: Prepare for a strike at the Orkneys.

3) The zeppliners
A: Begin to use them for nightly minelaying of series of chained floating mines (pairs of mines connected by chain) off the main harbours. Nightly scouting possible too.
B: Try to scout the English coast.
C: Try a repeat of the Scapa Flow scouting with two zeppeliners.

[DemonArchangel]

1.) C.) Let them rest a bit

2.) A) Hit East Anglia hard, sink a few hulks in and/or mine the near harbor(s), disrupt supplies and do a classic Viking style raid, complete with massacres.

3.) C.) The Zepplins have to scout, that's what they do, not lay mines down. Give them the pulpits and move in by the cover of darkness.

[discovery1]

Splended. When have done much damage to a convoy and sunk some of their light forces for no loss. Hmmm. That they are using armored cruisers for convoy escort even though they are more or less useless may indicate that they are stretched thin.

Hmmm

1A) We aren't going to do anything for a while, and the strike on the convoy wil pull off some of their strong forces I think. We will be safe for the week.

2A) The British are hurting now. Strike fast and hard, but NO massacres.

3A) Nightly minelaying. It may cause chaos among the British, with almost no chance of being caught.

Why scout Scapa with two zeps? Wouldn't one be enough to see what's there?

[Kraxis]

Oops... forgot to add a choice.

4) Raid?
A: Repeat your convoy raid with three battleships instead.
B: Repeat in a weeks time the raid with battlecruisers (if any other BC is repaired they will be used).
C: Light forces raid.
D: No raid.

Yes, it would be enough with a single zeppeliner, but it wouldn't be good if it got shot down before it saw anything. This choice was a response to the request for two scouts. If you want a single zeppeliner for this choice, just say so.

[discovery1]

Seems like a good way to loose two zeps to me....

4A) BB raid NOW, before they try to organize a better defense. If it can't be done within 3 days, scratch it.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

1)B, let them have fun, but keep them close enough to be mobilized in a fairly short time.

2)A, but no massacres! This is a civilized war, and we don't need to mobilize popular opinion against us. It would be better for us to hit them hard and show them that the UK is not safe from this war, that may help get them to agree to a cease-fire or at least better terms later on if all goes well. Massacres will give them yet another reason to continue fighting.

3)Not sure yet, I'll get back to this later.

4)A, if the Brits send more ships out on escort duty we need to be ready to smash them, and we need to raid them again.

[Kraxis]

Seems like a good way to loose two zeps to me....
Well, it is after all only an option.~:)


4A) BB raid NOW, before they try to organize a better defense. If it can't be done within 3 days, scratch it.
Considering the British have begun to combine their merchants into larger convoys, there is little chance they will have collected enough ships for another convoy in three days. And they will especially not set up with inadequate escort in several small convoys with potentially three battlecruisers bumbling about.

[AggonyDuck]

Hmmmmm, hehehe was almost afraid for a while that we would have a "what if" Troubridge vs Souchon situation there, but on second thought there was a huge difference here. :sweatdrop:

Anyways here's my answers:


1) The battlecruisers
A: Give them a week of leave so they can visit their homes and families. Of course watchcrews will remain.
To be honest I think these fellas deserve it. They are our elite and the guys who will be our best weapon in the coming conflict. Although having them away for a week does suck in operational sense, I'd still like to send them home. Would the definately be great for morale and being remembered of the effects of the blockade would restore the fighting spirit to break the blockade.
Would it be possible to send them home for about 5 days or so instead?

Also the fact is that we are not in condition to initiate a larger operation within this week speaks for the option of sending our fellas home.


2) Landings (these will not go in unsupported at all)
B: Land the single regiment in Kent to spread confusion and fear.

Although the fact that I'm personally sending the battlecruiser crew's away we might need another escort.


3) The zeppeliners
A: Begin to use them for nightly minelaying of series of chained floating mines (pairs of mines connected by chain) off the main harbours. Nightly scouting possible too.

Well the mining is good, but from what I gather the English were rather good at keeping lights off during wartime, which might make both scouting and minelaying harder than we think. But hey it can't hurt. :2thumbsup:

4) Raid?
D: No raid.

To be honest although there is a chance that we might stumble upon the inexperienced American battleships, I'd still avoid doing another raid in the fear of stumbling upon some of the more modern battleships from the RN. Also we can't afford considerable damage at the moment. The fact that the convoy escort duty is drawing away battleships from the channel is enough.

Although one thought crosses my mind, how about raiding with both BB's and BC's, this way we could lure the enemy BB's away with ours while allowing the BC's to hunt the convoy at will?

But still the best option is to lay low for now.

[Kagemusha]

That went very well.Now give the boys a vecation!:2thumbsup:

1.A) Give them a weeks leave.They have earned it.
2.D) Prepare for Strike at Orkneys.The only answer that only prepares.I think at this point we can might aswell plan a strike to Honolulu.I dont want to land anything yet.
3.A) The main laying ability can come in handy.
4.B) Lets continue harassing the British,maybe they make a stupid error

[Kraxis]

Just to be sure... A raid will be on the Scandinavian convoys, in about the same area (this is of course not the exact same area but you get the drift).

[discovery1]

Considering the British have begun to combine their merchants into larger convoys, there is little chance they will have collected enough ships for another convoy in three days. And they will especially not set up with inadequate escort in several small convoys with potentially three battlecruisers bumbling about.

Hmmm. Good point. I guess that will ensure that their escort is much stronger anyway. Still, send in teh BBs, but give them a zep or two in support if possible.


To be honest although there is a chance that we might stumble upon the inexperienced American battleships, I'd still avoid doing another raid in the fear.....

While your point about the British BBs may be valid, after all the brits have reason to think that we are mauled thus will be unable to mount a major operation any time soon thus they will feel safe sparing a few BBs for a while, I doubt we have to worry about the Americans.

From the end of Manstein's woes:



Ok will need to make some early comments on why it will not be a player in the North Sea. Thanks for the heads up, I would have felt rather embarassed if I had started the story but not mentioned the USN and then somebody did...


So no USN right Kraxis?

[Kraxis]

Yup... no USN, they are busy escorting convoys across the Atlantic.

[discovery1]

Yup... no USN, they are busy escorting convoys across the Atlantic.

Wow. That was fast. thanks.

Anyone care to guess how long it will take for the Tommies to put together anothe convoy? I think they could have escorts in position within two days, but the merchants I don't know. Kenshin thinks a week at most.

[Kommodus]

1. B

While I'd like to send the BC crews home for a bit, we're in a desperate fight and don't have many weapons at our disposal. We may not be planning a major operation within the next week, but that doesn't mean the British aren't. If we're attacked we may need the BCs. This option strikes a balance between giving our crews a reward and some time off, and keeping them close enough to join a battle if needed.

2. A

We only get one shot at a landing: may as well make it a decent attempt. I'd pick B but I'd rather not overwork the battlecruisers. C is out because we shouldn't be distracted during our channel operation, and D seems unlikely to succeed. Granted, a raid on the British naval base might succeed through sheer audacity, but they've kept enough ships near their base that it probably wouldn't work.

3. A

I must say C is tempting, since what I'd like most right now is information on the RN itself, especially how many of their ships are damaged, and how badly. However, I think we got a bit lucky last time and I'd rather not push it. We can drop a few mines and do a bit of less risky scouting.

4. D

I don't think it's time for another raid yet. The British will probably try to escort their convoys more heavily: I say we let them waste their ships on that. Maybe later, after we've carried out the landing and pulled their attention elsewhere, it'll be time to raid the convoys again.

[Franconicus]

God save the Kaiser!

Another great episode! Thank you, Kraxis! We made ourscores and we even repelled those nasty Danish :inquisitive:

1) The battlecruisers
A: Give them a week of leave so they can visit their homes and families. Of course watchcrews will remain.
Send them home. I think we have a risk of a rebellion. Maybe sending them home is better than to keep them at our harbors. Although - maybe not! :inquisitive:

2) Landings (these will not go in unsupported at all)
C: Load two regiments up on battleships and strike at Dunkerque and/or Boulogne, if/when the fleet finally manages to sail on the channel.
Landing should be part of our big bang operation, not a side stream operation!

3) The zeppliners
A: Begin to use them for nightly minelaying of series of chained floating mines (pairs of mines connected by chain) off the main harbours. Nightly scouting possible too.
We can do the scouting later. Make some damage there. Which ports are we going to attack?

4) Raid?
D: No raid.
We were lucky with our last operation but we should not overstretch our luck. The Brits will increase their escorts; that is what we wanted; we did not want to engage them!

By the way, this time we had a pure victory. We should rest now and use this fact for propaganda. Another operation could fail and people would forget our victory then.

So give the whole fleet a break, I guess they can use it. This and the good news from the convoy battle will raise the moral they will be willing to follow us into the big strike.

By the way, Kraxis, what we really need are more commanders and admirals. Why does our man have to do everything alone? I mean repairing ships and attacking the convoy ?

And we should try once more to get extra zeps. Tell the Kaiser that we can do landings only if we get more air support. And in the light of our latest operation the army may see that we are not completly useless.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Finally a nice non-pyrrhic victory! Feels good :2thumbsup:

1 B&C I vote to give them rest and some extra rations. That'll keep them drunk and unavailable for a day or two in the town but after that they'll be available as we need. Maybe we could give them some kind of medals or honor award? Allow all crews from those ships to wear some extra stuff on their uniform or something...

2B - Land the single regiment in Kent to spread confusion and fear. Sail during the night, and make sure to use a tricky and unexpected path to avoid any British surface forces. I think an unescorted small force of very fast low-profile ships should carry them in. We haven't got the strength to fight our way to the raid, our chance lies in not being detected and being able to escape if hunted.

3 new option D - I think a combination of these two should be done with the zeppeliners. 1. find out if they've reinforced their Scandinavian convoys. Send ONE zeppeliner to scout out the Gothenburg area. The straits there are so narrow that a single zeppeliner can cover the entire sailable path, which means we only need one zeppeliner to find out how strong the convoy escorts are now. This info could be valuable if it turns out we could get another easy loss-free strike later. But if we decide to make such a strike, we also need to scout out the sea to the west more extensively to see that they haven't got any hidden ambush force too, but for now I think it suffices to find info on convoy escort strength with a single zeppeliner. But we don't want to make the Danish authorities angry, so make the zeppeliner cruise there over international waters, no shortcuts over Danish ground or water IMO. Edit: one more idea - what if we send that scouting over Gothenburg the day before the night when we raid Kent? Could divert attention from Kent and make them think we've got a convoy raid coming...? 2. send the rest of the zeppeliners to mine laying raids. It seems like a both safe and useful operation - the British anti-aircraft strength is over the British ground, but can't cover the channel afaik.

4D No raid yet. The single zeppeliner suggested in 3 will find out if it's worth raiding a convoy next chapter. Then, I think a raid with BBs and BCs going together will be a pretty good option, but I don't know yet.

[King Kurt]

Good - that has worked well - it should pull their focus off the Channel - note they are not in the Bight and a weak escort of the convoy, so they have been hurt and are a bit stretched.
As to options;-
1 - B - I did think about letting them home - but seeing how bad things are at home due to the blockade might mean some might not come back. So let them have some r&r where we can keep a check on them.

2 - C - we must keep our focus on the main target - but I would not send them in the BBs - light forces would be better. I was tempted to send a raid to England as a diversion, but that might pull forces down the North sea - not what we want.

3 - A - let us keep the English on the back foot (sorry - a cricket metaphore!) We need a Scarpa recon but nearer the time of our raid, so the mining will be a contribution to disruption of the supplies etc.Also, we might stike lucky and damage some fighting units.

4 - D - The raid has done it's purpose. we will not meet such a soft target again as they will have to escort them with stronger forces - just what we wanted. And in no circumstances should we send battleships - that is not their tactical use. Also I think that nosey Dane was a spy, so let us not give him another opportunity.
All our efforts should focus on the big raid on Calais - let us get the men rested, the ships repaired and do some specialised training - like getting troops on and off ships.:2thumbsup:

[Franconicus]

KK is right. The Danes obviously scan the sea. If they send this information to the Brits and they set up a trap, we can loose our operation forces. I do not trust the Danes even if they bring gifts.:embarassed:

Kraxis, can we get reports of our military police at home about the moral and the communistic activities? There should also be a report of our - err - scouts in Britain about the state of the British fleet.

[Ludens]

1A) If scuffles break out after a victory the situation is clearly quite bad, so radical measures are called for. These people need some time seperate from each other. They are our foremost units, so they should be fit and eager for the next battle.

2B) I am split between 2B and 2C. 2A means that we will land in the same area as our previous attack, so the British are alerted to our intentions, while D means sailing past the main British naval base. Both B and C helps us towards our goal (C by disrupting their harbours, B their supplies). However, B will make the Allies even more wary of these raids. However, they should already know this by now. I therefor vote 2B, as it will give us some experience for the big one.

3B) I don't believe in the mine-laying capacity of the zeps, and scouting Scapa Flow is too risky. I'd rather have information about the area we are going to raid. However, I am not quite sure how well air-defences are in this area.

4D) No raid, for the reasons mentioned by the four previous posters.

[discovery1]

1 - B - I did think about letting them home - but seeing how bad things are at home due to the blockade might mean some might not come back. So let them have some r&r where we can keep a check on them.

Nonsense. If the crews go home they will see the impact of the blockaid. And staying home afterward is no way to help that situation. Rather, the best way would be to go back and fight the British. Seeing ones malnurished children I suspect would fill one with rightous anger no?

Hmmm. How long do you think it would have taken for word of us to reach the Tommies from that 'spy'? Surely they would have delayed the convoy if they knew about us.

[Franconicus]

Nonsense. If the crews go home they will see the impact of the blockaid. And staying home afterward is no way to help that situation. Rather, the best way would be to go back and fight the British. Seeing ones malnurished children I suspect would fill one with rightous anger no?
No, not this year. They fought the British for so many years, the Germans even defeated the Russians, but the situation was getting worse. Most people thought that it was better to end the war. And most of those thought that the war would be ended if only the Kaiser, kings and counts would disappear.


Hmmm. How long do you think it would have taken for word of us to reach the Tommies from that 'spy'? Surely they would have delayed the convoy if they knew about us.
Do not trust anybody. Do not trust the Danish. I bet that the Brits are currently trying to make them work for them. If they place a small group of BBs somewhere near and then sent a convoy - this could become a deadly trap.

When I read Kraxis story about the battle with the weak escort and the hunting of the commercial ships I always had the bad feeling that something was behind my back, something big, something bad. It was only waiting for a chance to attack us from behind.

Well, so far we had been lucky. Do not try it again. Next time they could get us. We could not replace the casualties.

[Kraxis]

Kraxis, can we get reports of our military police at home about the moral and the communistic activities? There should also be a report of our - err - scouts in Britain about the state of the British fleet.
The MPs and covert operatives ect ect, have determined that your initial work on the revolutionaries have removed any chance of a red mutiny. But a lot of the grumbling hasn't abated.
Initially the crews were happy to do something, and even more so by the capture of the small convoy in the beginning.
But the heavy losses of manpower has left them wondering if their sacrifice is actually worth it. Have their deaths mean any chance of lifting the blockade, or more importantly has it meant greater chances for their families and themselves getting proper/enough food on the table? But they are also aware that they have done good, and most of them are professionals by now, so they have a professional pride. That has kept them going.
Fatigue and fear has recently made them a bit more edgy, but that should wind down with rest.

No reports on the crews of the battlecruisers though as they have not been home to keep an eye on.

The spies in Britain aer not a certain asset. They a few and they hunted. They don't get many chances to send you intelligence. In fact you have been extremely well supplied so far... Perhaps the British have made more of an effort to root them out?

A zeppeliner going to Gothenburg has two choices, going the long way; up Jutland and then east, or going over Denmark, which will of course violate their aerospace. But a violation of Danish aerospace might not be too bad really as the sovereignty of the air has yet to be developed much. The Danish government might in fact let the zeppeliner fly, but not land (internment), but it might also make a big fuss about it.

[Kagemusha]

Im no expert of Naval warfare,but doesnt the Sun Tzu say that when the enemy is attacking withdraw,when he is still, haras him and when he is withdrawing attack him. Now if we give the sailors week of(btw which is a great idea.Seeing your loved ones back home is the best motivator for a soldier to keep fighting).After that we still have two weeks to sit on our hands before we are fully operational.What good that passivity will bring to us?

[Franconicus]

Do not start activities only for activity sake!

If we can launch the big strike while the Brits are tired - fine. However, I think most agree that we are not able to do a big operation right now. We should concentrate all of our forces right and attack as soon as possible. Every combat before would only weaken us even if we win. The Brits can replace cassualties much easier.

Now there is no time to play around. Let's take the gloves off and fight!!:boxing:

[Rodion Romanovich]

A zeppeliner going to Gothenburg has two choices, going the long way; up Jutland and then east, or going over Denmark, which will of course violate their aerospace. But a violation of Danish aerospace might not be too bad really as the sovereignty of the air has yet to be developed much. The Danish government might in fact let the zeppeliner fly, but not land (internment), but it might also make a big fuss about it.

I think it's worth trying the long route :2thumbsup: I hope the others agree it's a good thing as it only requires a single one of the zeppeliners and can still bring home much valuable information :book:

[discovery1]

The Brits can replace cassualties much easier.

They can't actually. They just have a larger pool of ships to draw from, although that is a minor point I suppose.


Do not trust anybody. Do not trust the Danish. I bet that the Brits are currently trying to make them work for them. If they place a small group of BBs somewhere near and then sent a convoy - this could become a deadly trap.

When I read Kraxis story about the battle with the weak escort and the hunting of the commercial ships I always had the bad feeling that something was behind my back, something big, something bad. It was only waiting for a chance to attack us from behind.

Hmm. Lets see. If this was a spy, if they had wireless, then the Admiralty would know about it almost instantly. Then what would they do? If they had no strong ships in the area, then the convoy would surely be delayed while stronger ships come. This evidently did not happen. So I suppose it is possible that there were ships waiting for us, but their reaction time was too slow which would indicate bad intelligence. So I would image the range of their blimps is rather limited, or they are tired.

Summary: Either he was not a spy, or if he was there were strong ships but their efforts were poorly coordinated(good news, and something we should take advantage of NOW) OR there was no wireless available to the spy. Course, if the latter was the case then he wouldn't have stopped. And I doubt that the Danish government would act as the eyes and ears of the British, it is too risky although they would I imagine cheer for the British.



Well, so far we had been lucky. Do not try it again. Next time they could get us. We could not replace the casualties.

They could get us, if we are as blind as we were this time. That is why we would bring a zep to watch out for us, well a reason.


Hmmm...

No matter what, make the raid soon, but not too soon. A week or so. Enough for the British to deploy forces to protect the convoys. And then after the raid, send another convoy raid with the BBs, provided we arent ready for the Channel strike.
OOOO! How soon will those Siegfrieds be ready? We could have them steam up in the direction of Gotland, but turn stop short and then turn back. If Franc is right, then the Danes will report another raid and if the Brits will wait, maybe even send more ships to intercept if the raid looks strong enough. Leaving them more vaulnerable to our real action against England.....



Oh, and send the zep the long way. Not only will the Danes not say anything, but it may also see something of use out there.

[Flavius Clemens]

1) I was on the verge of opting for A, but the given the views that they might not come back I'll go for B.

2) C. This matches our strategic objective, and will directly tie up troops that could otherwise be on the western front. The if/when caveat is important though - there's no point in sending battleships on a suicide mission. (A is difficult - trying to land in East Anglia and spread as far as Hartlepool is stratching too far, and D would be a disaster - trying to run an amphibious campaign on the enemies doorstep would leave us exposed and outnumbered.) Certainly no atrocities though. The British media made enough play on invented German atrocities, no point in handing them any propaganda victories on a plate.

3) A. When the land offensive starts it would be suspicious if we didn't do something to help break the supply chain, and this looks like the low risk option.

4) D. We've achieved our aim, done some damage to the British and almost certainly made them deploy some heavy forces to convoy duty. No need for further risk / tiring out our crews. However, the Kiel Canal is a bottleneck, and the sensible British response would be to lay mines or deploy submarines. We might need the canal at some point, so we should keep an eye on it with minesweepers.

[AggonyDuck]

1) I was on the verge of opting for A, but the given the views that they might not come back I'll go for B.


From what I gather we shouldn't be afraid of this. Firstly there is absolutely nothing for them to occupy themselves with at home for longer periods at the moment. Secondly the fact is that I doubt these fellas would actually risk getting shot for escaping from service, because there is definately a huge chance that you will get shot if you try to escape.

[discovery1]

We could give their families extra food, most of which would be after the one week leave. And requires them to come home, of course.

[AntiochusIII]

From what I gather we shouldn't be afraid of this. Firstly there is absolutely nothing for them to occupy themselves with at home for longer periods at the moment. Secondly the fact is that I doubt these fellas would actually risk getting shot for escaping from service, because there is definately a huge chance that you will get shot if you try to escape.Hehe...I once read a passage in All Quiet On The Western Front on how Paul Baumer (with the signs I don't have on my keyboard) experiences home and how that drives his morale down a tatch to see how disconnected the world is from his plight.

May be Kraxis got an inspiration from that? :inquisitive:

Anyway, I've been gone far too long, though you guys are doing an excellent job indeed. What a Pyrrhus-free victory! Good debate going on here:

1) The battlecruisers
B: Give them extra rations of good food and some money so they can have fun in the town.

I personally prefer adding medals of honor (Kraxis talks about professional pride, after all) to the list of gifts above. And I'd like to see if anyone likes it. Votes? It would, I think, forge into them a pride of their status, hardened heroes of the German Empire, if nothing else. Why, they deserve it more than just a lousy break back to see a broken home!

2) Landings (these will not go in unsupported at all)
B: Land the single regiment in Kent to spread confusion and fear.

D. Is too far away--our forces might got caught by the RN along the way. A is too big--our operation has not been a serious invasion threat anyway, and the survival of the fleet matters much more than a damaged English port or two. While C is too obvious--the result might be an unpleasant increase in British awareness of our ultimate target, and by the Prussians Kings of old I doubt we could take on the whole might of the Royal Navy head on. So B. Finish the job and get over with. Indeed, if we try to do C with the operation, I fear that the friendly fire from the capital ships on the troops could be a serious issue. Aren't we planning on leveling down the ports to fields of smoldering rubble anyway?

3) The zeppliners
A: Begin to use them for nightly minelaying of series of chained floating mines (pairs of mines connected by chain) off the main harbours. Nightly scouting possible too.

Little to lose, a lot to gain, even if by chance. Why not?

By the way, I support Legio's idea to send the Zep to scout the convoy route, the long way. There's little to lose (as long as the Danish aren't "violated"--even if they spy on us, what harm could they do?) and lots to gain. If the British don't notice we gain intelligence; if the British are vulnerable it's a free strike; and if the British notice us, then they'll suspect a more routine and large-scale raiding, meaning more forces being forcibly drawn away from other sectors of the Game. And if we gain nothing at all out of this, we lose nothing at all.

How about explicit votes on this?

[Kagemusha]

Im almost ready to pull my self out of this. We are fixated to an suprise attack that will be no suprise to our enemy.We started this well.But the innnovativenes is getting less and less in our tactics.I have one question for you guys.Did the Germans pull of their channell raid in real life?Becouse from chapter to chapter we are making more restrictions to ourselves.

[discovery1]

There was a channel raid made by the German navy around this time? I thought that in OTL the High Seas Fleet sat around till the crews revolted out of boredom. All I can find is that the birtish raided a German port in belgium in April 1918. I vaguely remeber a vague reference to a muntany, which I knwo happened, becuase the Admiralty wanted a deathride. Not sure if that's true.

Kraxis, what have we done about the possibitly of the english reading our messages?

[Kommodus]

The Germans never tried a channel raid in real life. The High Seas Fleet mostly stayed in port after Jutland, and wasn't much of a factor for the rest of the war. The British retained control of the sea.

[AggonyDuck]

Im almost ready to pull my self out of this. We are fixated to an suprise attack that will be no suprise to our enemy.We started this well.But the innnovativenes is getting less and less in our tactics.I have one question for you guys.Did the Germans pull of their channell raid in real life?Becouse from chapter to chapter we are making more restrictions to ourselves.

The problem isn't that we would be fixated on a surprise attack, but that we're forced to try sever the supplies between England and France. That's the only way we can ultimately influence a win for Germany.

To be honest the English will know that it is our ultimate goal, but we have the advantage of choosing when and how, especially if we keep the wireless down we truly might have some advantage in surprise. ´

But to be honest raiding the channel is easier said than done.

Anyways Kage, do you have any other suggestions on our course of action?

[Franconicus]

Did the Germans pull of their channell raid in real life?
No they did not, but they wanted to. There was the order from October 24th 1918. The fleet should make an desicive operation against the Grand Fleet.

One of the reasons was that the Germans had stopped the submarine war against merchant ships. Therfor the subs and some escort ships were released and could operate against other targets.

This was the plan:
The big ships would penetrate the Channel during night and attack the coast of Flanders and the mouth of the Thames. The Grand Fleet would come from the Scottish ports. They would have had to travel two days to reach the Channel. On the way they would be attacked by subs, zeps and mines. Finally, in the Channel there would have been the decision. Although the RN was stronger in numbers the German admirals saw some advantages:
- the British had to identiofy the ships in the Channel first, while the Germans could shoot at everything
- the German fleet was stronger than during the Skagerak battle
- the British were not prepared or allert for such a battle.

The Germans hoped that if they won the blockade would break down and the position of Germany for peace negotiations would be much better. If the German lost, it would make no difference.

Even the admiralty did not think that the chances were good. However, they did not want to sit in the harbors with their big and expensive fleet and wait for peace.

The marine was not under the command of the army or the parliament. It was directly reporting to the Kaiser. However, they jist sent him the plan and started the operation. Obviously they thought they could do whatever they liked to (like in our game :laugh4: )

The plans were not realized because of a rebellion of the sailors. In the end this caused the revolution in Germany.

Our game is similar, only with some changes:
1) we do nt have support of the subs
2) the war is not completly lost, or at least the Germans have still hopes and a strong army
3) The target is not the destruction of the Grand Fleet. So we could try a hit and run strategy.

Here are some maps for our next operations:
https://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1277/englandsearoutes26cp.jpg

https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6529/europeenglandsearoutes20di.jpg

[King Kurt]

Kage

I will not cover the real lfe situation - Franc and the others have done that.

Personally, I don't think that the English are so on to our plan as you think. if they were they could take very effective measures to stop it - they could put a blockading fleet in the Bight, possibly slightly weaker than our overall strength, but they have enough ships to rotor them about to keep the strength strong enough to contain us and inflict enough damage on us to make furthur offensive action not an option for a few weeks. They could have done that from day 1 - but they haven't. They have made several small probes which we have tended to overwhelm - it is as if they are trying to embroil us in a fight and then overwhelm us with ships coming down from Scarpa - something which nearly happened in the last large fleet action. They seem to attracted to gimmicks - Glorius and Furious - and often things seem to be in penny packets.
Up to now we have reacted to his operations - I am sure he will be stung by the convoy attack and will reinforce that route to try and catch us - that is why we should not do it again. I am sure the Channel raid will be difficult and might fail - but it is difficult to see an alternative that will truely make a difference. So let's give it a go - it will be a glorius success or a complete failure - but at least we would have tried to make a difference as opposed to what happened historically where the grand Fleet sat on their hands for too long and mutined when called upon to make an admittingly suicidal attack - at least our odds are a bit better.:2thumbsup:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hehe...I once read a passage in All Quiet On The Western Front on how Paul Baumer (with the signs I don't have on my keyboard) experiences home and how that drives his morale down a tatch to see how disconnected the world is from his plight.


Cool, I was also thinking about Paul Baumer when I read the "send home" option :book:


Im almost ready to pull my self out of this. We are fixated to an suprise attack that will be no suprise to our enemy.We started this well.But the innnovativenes is getting less and less in our tactics.I have one question for you guys.Did the Germans pull of their channell raid in real life?Becouse from chapter to chapter we are making more restrictions to ourselves.

What exactly is it that you are disliking in our plan? The strategical goal - a raid on Calais? Or are you disagreeing with the choices made in the current chapter? Personally if there's one change I'd like to see in our strategy, it is that we should try to get a few quick kill-loss ratio improving engagements before the big operation, as it's quite far to Calais and if we are discovered too early we'll have trouble getting back before RN comes down from Scapa Flow. Edit: Judging from Franconius's maps, it seems like the distance from Scapa Flow to the best place of intercepting us is 1.5 times the distance from our home port to Calais one way. The differences in speed are quite small so this means that if only we get halfway or two thirds of the way to Calais or so (could someone tell how long time the actual port raid will take and properly calculate how far we must get before not having to retreat if RN starts moving?) before getting discovered we'll most likely make it out of there without much trouble at all. I think one thing we should keep in mind when doing the raid is to immediately call it off and retreat if RN starts making steam before we've gotten far enough - maybe we then even skip the Calais raid and instead put out a nice little minefield only and then retreat out of their sight. If they run into the minefield (our zeppeliners could check that), we turn back and engage the force they sent down while it's inside the minefield. Hopefully that'll destroy enough of them and few enough of our ships to allow us to continue the raid plan immediately and indeed reach Calais as originally planned. With such a plan B I think our chances of succeeding are very good actually. One more good idea was the suggestion of splitting our force in two - one fast force for the actual raid on Calais, and another which covers their backs, both forces then joining on the way back. That could confuse the RN when we're on our way to Calais, and make them think our raiding force is small (by seeing only one of the two forces we have they could get that false impression), and that could fool them to send down an underdimensioned force to deal with us, which we could then destroy easily or at least easily escape from. So what events must go wrong for the operation to go wrong? The RN must discover us quite EARLY, make a proper judgement of our STRENGTH by seeing both forces, send a BIG enough fleet after us, DISCOVER the minefield and evade it (if they discover it quite late they'll have to make a deroute buying us valuable time for the escape), and NOT have too many ships diverted to convoy escorting and any other diversionary moves we might be carrying out at the time. They need a lot of both luck and skills to defeat our plan, I'd say. I think our chances of pulling it off without losing more than 3 BBs and 5 BCs at the most - which are acceptable losses for the operation IMO (especially as we have great chances of at the same time destroying the same number of or more RN ships in the process) - are about 99%.

To improve our chances of succeeding in that operation as much as possible, we should try to get a few battles where we scout+strike a much smaller enemy force than our own to improve kill-loss ratio in the meantime while we're preparing the big operation (but remember that it's more important to keep down own losses than keeping up enemy losses). If we're lucky we can even carry out one more convoy raid in a coming chapter before convoy raids are out of the question, but striking a convoy again now, and without proper scouting of possible traps etc., seems like suicide. If we're lucky the Kent raid will draw back RN ships to the English coast and give us yet another easy convoy battle, which in turn will result in even more RN resources being drawn to convoy escort after that. I think that with luck and innovation we'll be able to destroy quite a few more RN cruisers and maybe one or two BBs in the coming weeks, unless RN realizes the most sensible thing they could do would be to block us from doing anything by aggressively patrolling the gap with several BBs and Furious scouting heavily to prevent us from sneaking out undetected like we did last time.

[Ludens]

Kraxis' and AntiochusIII's representations have made me change my mind about the first option. I now vote 1B, and I second AntiochusIII's proposal for awarding medals. In fact, I think the entire fleet should receive a big pat on the shoulders. I also support the idea of sending a single zep to scout the convoy route.

Kagemusha, exactly what do you plan to do? We've skirmished with the British to weaken them, but this is what we have been working up to: an attempt to sever connections with France. Have you any alternative way to do that? We cannot keep going as we did before: time is running out and so is our supply of ships. Trying to destroy the Royal Navy in one big battle is not feasable and doing it ship by ship will take to much time. Time's our main weakness here. The British are aware of that, so let's just hope we can distract them enough.

However, I am worried about the disappearance of the British. Why did they leave? I would at least have left some forward scouts to keep an eye on our movements. Perhaps there are some British subs in the area. Kraxis, does the British admiral control the English subs or our they a seperate command as well?

[Kraxis]

The British subs are a seperate command, just like yours. But because they don't have to dabble much with striking at merchants they are more uncertain.
The horrible K-class wa however part of the Grand Fleet, and still are, but they have been sidelined after their almost complete destruction in an accident.

[DemonArchangel]

Is there any way we can get the submariners to work with us? They would be dead useful in combination with the navy's zeppliners and surface units in taking out British, as well as launching flank attacks during any full on battles with them.

The submarines are a major german asset and I can't believe that we haven't used them at all yet.

[AntiochusIII]

Is there any way we can get the submariners to work with us? They would be dead useful in combination with the navy's zeppliners and surface units in taking out British, as well as launching flank attacks during any full on battles with them.

The submarines are a major german asset and I can't believe that we haven't used them at all yet.That depends on how much influence we have left with the Admirality (and I predict we won't have enough, anyway) to actually put them as part of the plan in an operation, in which only Kraxis can tell us if it is possible or not. But if we got a wounded British BB's, or better yet, a routing flotilla at hand then of course, I doubt the Admirality would hesitate. We've used them once even though the sub was forced to surrender.

Now, don't take my Baumer reference too seriously--I am just speculating as much as everyone else. But in the end, even if we are to presume that such a Baumeresque event where the soldier would come to share the public's disillusionment with war (even if from an entirely different perspective), the benefits of option 1 still won't outweight the possible risks: British early action, our early action, desertion, accidents along the way ( :sweatdrop: ), and all that could happen with the sailors scattered and far away. I'd still prefer option 2 with the medals. With the entire Fleet or just the Battlecruisers I don't really care... :2thumbsup:

___________________________________________

BTW, Kage, your disillusionment with what I assume is our obsession with the Calais raid is understandable, as it clearly seems to limit our actions at hand. But the Calais plan is an attempt by the players of our side (I sadly did not participate in that period, being an on-and-off player) to formulate a plan out of those early days where we had no real objectives except to win day-to-day victories on an attrition war that really had no future. The result was the decision to support the Spring offensive by storming the port Calais--and if we are lucky we might even get a shot at Dunkerque along the way. And if we are thrice fortunate then the Royal Navy might suffer a catastrophic defeat farther from their Scottish bases than in the North Sea, driven hopefully by the rage and haste of that we provoke on them.

Of course, the expected success is not more than a successful raid on Calais. Any damages we could do on the RN during the operation would be added as bonus rather than goals.

I think it is a right decision to limit our strategic vision to one single focus. The German surface Navy is not capable of more, not since Jutland; our last debacle, barely saved with dear costs like the sinking of Prinzregent Luitpold, demonstrates that.

If we succeed on that plan I'm sure the strategic flexibility that we enjoyed before the plan was agreed..."by the Council" would be restored and, if the game is not over by then, it would be free game for the brave. :balloon2:

By the way, guys, what about Legio's idea of the Zep in the North? We should cast our votes.

[Franconicus]

Just two comments:

1) In reality the English espionage was so good that the RN left Scapa some hours before the German fleet left their harbor. They had received the message that the German ships were made ready to leave!:oops:
However, maybe we can use this. Some feint attacks to tire the RN.
2) One focus of the German high command is still the blockade of England. The main weapon is the submarines. Their job is even more important now that the spring operation will take place and that the US boys are coming. I doubt that we can get the subs, maybe a couple for a week, but not more. Furthermore not having the subs is part of the rules of our game.

And one more my urgent request:

Our armies are going to start the desicive operation. Our job is to cut off France from the rest of the world. This goal is worth fighting and dying. Please, no more sidesstream operation that have no direct effect on the bog bang! No more 'let's improve the ratio'. Ratio will not matter if we loose the spring operation! So let's penetrate the Channel, sink and destroy everything in sight and then wonder how we can get back!

Right now I have a crazy idea: Let's penetrate the Channel and massacre everything. The RN will come down from Scapa and try to block our way back. However, we will not return this way but sail right through the Channel, from one end to the other leaving a trail of blood. The RN will be forced to follow. Once we reached the western end of the Channel we turn north and pass Ireland either on the eastern or on the western side. We can sink every convoy and ruin every port we meet there. Then we pass Scotland and fight our way back.
I know the plan is stupid, chances are low that any ship will ever return, however it would do much damage to the British supply, engage the RN for weeks and if we succeed the propaganda effect will be huge. Maybe we can get peace then. The clue is that we do something unexpected and that we can get a head start.

[AntiochusIII]

Right now I have a crazy idea: Let's penetrate the Channel and massacre everything. The RN will come down from Scapa and try to block our way back. However, we will not return this way but sail right through the Channel, from one end to the other leaving a trail of blood. The RN will be forced to follow. Once we reached the western end of the Channel we turn north and pass Ireland either on the eastern or on the western side. We can sink every convoy and ruin every port we meet there. Then we pass Scotland and fight our way back.It won't work because no seamen will go out on a battle to surely die but not surely win.

And the British has as their defensive layers much more than just the Fleet at Scapa in the control of the other team: if we go on a rampage it will, to use a game term, trigger the AI on "Hunt The Bismarch" mode, otherwise known as throwing everything at us. Even if somehow the crewmen agree to die for their nation and such a plan succeeds magnificently in its initial stages the raiding fleet will still be worn down and destroyed, and just imagine how the carnage would enrage the bloody Brits and Americans to even more warlike attitudes...

I was toying with the idea of carrying out the annoying Wilhelm's Raid of Britain operation on Scapa instead of anywhere else and hack 'n slash to ruin the drydocks and the damaged ships within, but realized such a plan is suicide from start to finish. How can we even land?

Now, I don't know what the British views our ultimate goal as. Let's speculate together: if they're sure it's Calais, then it's gonna be an uphill fight to distract the Royal Navy; if they're not, the sidestream operations will be useful in forming a pattern that will convince the British that our goal is elsewhere, like, say, continuous efforts around the North Sea to convince the British that we plan on cutting off the Scandinavian convoy completely, or the landing attempts being frequent and random that we'd seem to be trying to raid Britain's ports or something, or some other crazy objectives that these sidestream operations will give the impression of...

Nonetheless, that's not important. What's more important is this: let's debate on what the Royal Navy's goal right now is. Remember, behind the other side are humans playing too. Certainly, with such a superiority in numbers and forces, the Royal Navy's not sitting around in total defence mode? What do you think they're trying to achieve, based on evidence we have and the "If I am the British Admiral" logic?

[Franconicus]

It won't work because no seamen will go out on a battle to surely die but not surely win.
They won't know until they have no choice. We will start for an operation against British supply. Once we are in the Channel we tell them we have to avoid contact with the big fleet ad find another way home. They will follow, because there is no other choice.


And the British has as their defensive layers much more than just the Fleet at Scapa in the control of the other team: if we go on a rampage it will, to use a game term, trigger the AI on "Hunt The Bismarch" mode, otherwise known as throwing everything at us.
Do they? I do not think that the Brits have many big ships at the other side. There are surely some cruisers in the western approaches for convoy duties and some in the northeast to do the blockade. However, I think they are far too weak to fight our complete fleet. It will be a hunt, no doubt, but if the plan works the Scapa fleet will wait at the eastern exit and we can get a head start. Maybe they will never get us. All the other ships and fleets are too weak to stop us. The British do not have the time to gather them. They can just send them one by one into the battle to slow us down. The main porblem may be that every damaged ship will be a lost ship and that we may run low with ammo. I know it is a death ride. However, every Channel mission is, so why not playing to hit the jack-pot?


Now, I don't know what the British views our ultimate goal as. Let's speculate together: if they're sure it's Calais, then it's gonna be an uphill fight to distract the Royal Navy; if they're not, the sidestream operations will be useful in forming a pattern that will convince the British that our goal is elsewhere, like, say, continuous efforts around the North Sea to convince the British that we plan on cutting off the Scandinavian convoy completely, or the landing attempts being frequent and random that we'd seem to be trying to raid Britain's ports or something, or some other crazy objectives that these sidestream operations will give the impression of...

Nonetheless, that's not important. What's more important is this: let's debate on what the Royal Navy's goal right now is. Remember, behind the other side are humans playing too. Certainly, with such a superiority in numbers and forces, the Royal Navy's not sitting around in total defence mode? What do you think they're trying to achieve, based on evidence we have and the "If I am the British Admiral" logic?

I assume that their goal is to secure the supply. They could do it by defeating our fleet, by blocking the entry of our port or by guarding the convoys.

We learned that they tried to do the first one (engaging us in a decisive battle) and the second one, too. Although they could not defeat us the supply was more or less secure. Only our last operation did damage.

What are they going to do? They cannot cover every convoy. So I guess they will either try to block our harbor again or they will try to have a strong, mobile central force and a lot of recon so they can react on any threat of our side.

Propably they will send small boats and Zeps to screen the Northers Sea. It will be hard to do something they do not see. So we have to do something smart to avoud the fight with the RN. Either we devide our forces to slow them down, or we do something unexpected.

[King Kurt]

The "let's guess what the English are doing" is a good exercise.
Let us not forget that technically they do not know that the Spring offensive is coming - in reality it came as a surprise to the allies as the germans had not shelled their lines for weeks like the begining of every allied offensive.
So I believe their main goal is to engage and defeat our fleet - which they seem to have tried to do by dangling argets in front of us and then trying to catch us once we get engaged. This has not worked as we have generally struck swiftly then withdrawn. They have suffered some ship losses and a lot of damage, so resources must be getting a bit thin - especially as they have a range of activities to cover - the lack of support to the baltic convoy shows this, as does the lack of a close squadron covering the Bight. I believe they must be getting frustrated - we have blooded their noses and the convoy raid must rankle. this will hopefully the right set of circumstances for our Channel raid.:2thumbsup:

[Peasant Phill]

I think I have a solution to the British intel problem if we're going on our Calais raid( I think it was Legio who already mentioned it but I want to bring it back under the attention). As what Franc said also happens in this game, that the RN was already on their way before the Germans even embarked, then we're screwed. So we have to fool them.

I do however not agree with Franc on the point that feint departures are the answer as they will only alert the Brits that something is about to happen.

An other, possible better, way is this one:
On the day before our raid we go on some manoeuvres ( just some excercises so our crews maintain their skills). We've done this before so the Brits won't be that suspicious. But instead of returning home when it's dark we steam on to our goal and at least the fleet in Scapa will be surprised.

The only challenge with this deception is to make the Brits believe we are on an excercise and nothing more. Let them think that we are planning something big as long as they expect it to happen in the next couple of weeks instead of the next day. We could even fool them in thinking we are planning an entire other operation.

[AggonyDuck]

The "let's guess what the English are doing" is a good exercise.
Let us not forget that technically they do not know that the Spring offensive is coming - in reality it came as a surprise to the allies as the germans had not shelled their lines for weeks like the begining of every allied offensive.
So I believe their main goal is to engage and defeat our fleet - which they seem to have tried to do by dangling argets in front of us and then trying to catch us once we get engaged. This has not worked as we have generally struck swiftly then withdrawn. They have suffered some ship losses and a lot of damage, so resources must be getting a bit thin - especially as they have a range of activities to cover - the lack of support to the baltic convoy shows this, as does the lack of a close squadron covering the Bight. I believe they must be getting frustrated - we have blooded their noses and the convoy raid must rankle. this will hopefully the right set of circumstances for our Channel raid.:2thumbsup:

Technically doesn't really matter in this story, the fact remains that they know that the spring offensive is coming and that we need to support it if we want to have any hope for success. Also their main goal propably isn't to actually engage and defeat our fleet, but just to keep us in the port.
Also trust me, our resources are a lot thinner than the English ones at the moment.

[King Kurt]

Do they necessarily know about the offensive? - it all depends on how Kraxis has been building their side of the story. If they just needed to keep us in port then why be so aggressive. They had enough ships to rotate around a resonable size force in the Bight to maintain a close blockade - but they haven't done that, they have always sort to provoke and engage us.
As for our resources - yes we are stretched, but we only have 1 activity to do - the raid - while the English have to cover a range of areas - including Scandanavian convoys - so they have to think about the allocation of their resources..:2thumbsup:

[Rodion Romanovich]

1) In reality the English espionage was so good that the RN left Scapa some hours before the German fleet left their harbor. They had received the message that the German ships were made ready to leave!:oops:
However, maybe we can use this. Some feint attacks to tire the RN.


Thanks, that is very important for us to keep in mind. I support Peasant Phill's suggestion, and any other further diversionary ideas that might come up.



Our armies are going to start the desicive operation. Our job is to cut off France from the rest of the world. This goal is worth fighting and dying. Please, no more sidesstream operation that have no direct effect on the bog bang! No more 'let's improve the ratio'. Ratio will not matter if we loose the spring operation! So let's penetrate the Channel, sink and destroy everything in sight and then wonder how we can get back!

Right now I have a crazy idea: Let's penetrate the Channel and massacre everything. The RN will come down from Scapa and try to block our way back. However, we will not return this way but sail right through the Channel, from one end to the other leaving a trail of blood. The RN will be forced to follow. Once we reached the western end of the Channel we turn north and pass Ireland either on the eastern or on the western side. We can sink every convoy and ruin every port we meet there. Then we pass Scotland and fight our way back.
I know the plan is stupid, chances are low that any ship will ever return, however it would do much damage to the British supply, engage the RN for weeks and if we succeed the propaganda effect will be huge. Maybe we can get peace then. The clue is that we do something unexpected and that we can get a head start.

I don't agree with this. First of all any kill-loss ratio improvement is to our gain, unless it weakens morale and gives us losses. We've seen with the convoy raid that our opponents aren't distributing forces to cover everything well and if we get more chances of doing something similar we'll stretch them even thinner. Any British ship we can remove from the list of ships they could possibly send south when we raid Calais is to our benefit, unless we lose many ships. Also, if we fail the Calais raid but our ships return to port alive, we haven't necessarily lost. We'll have a few chances to think up something - hopefully an isolation and destruction of an important part of RN followed by a new raid on Calais or something else. However if we lose the entire fleet in the Calais operation we have lost for sure. Also if it turns out the Calais operation causes so little damage it can be repaired quickly, we also lose. We need our ships, and keeping a good kill-loss ratio. The Calais raid is our formal objective, but the kill-loss ratio is our duty and our best tool of enabling us to move freely and carry out such missions successfully. Putting all eggs in one basket and being too obsessed with succeeding in the Calais raid, at the cost of our entire fleet being lost, is not a good idea. What if our shells strike in a way that makes it look like we damaged them much, but it turns out they can get the port repaired in a few weeks? If the Calais raid seems to go wrong and/or we can't get much of the way before getting detected we have to have a plan B that includes being able to get out fleet safely back in port. If we succeed in the Calais raid in a way that successfully damage the task force that RN sends south to intercept our raid, then we'll most likely manage to destroy such a large portion of RN that after that we'll be able to move almost freely and raid anything we like in the channel, provide naval supportive bombing for the land offensive, and raid Dunquerque, block the Thames, and carry out a landing in Britain. If we do this the right way we don't put all eggs in one basket but instead open up a huge number of possibilities.

[King Kurt]

Let us think again on why we are targeting Calais. I believe it is better to target an entry port into France as opposed to an English port. During WW1 London was the biggest port in the world, but realistically we could not attack it - access is up a long channel which would be virtually impossible to penertrate. Also the English have a lot of ports, so goods could be diverted. Calais has an easier approach - it is on the sea and is the nearest port to the front line - so it is more of a choke point than say London.
So assuming that Calais is the best target what next - well I think we will get one shot at this, so let us go with ample force to achieve what we want and stand a fighting chance of getting through any force it meets. Also, let us remember that these raids only cause a temporary disruption to supply, but the disruption we cause will be at a critical time as the offensive gets going.
To sum up - the raid will be risky, but if we do it with enough force it could swing the balance in the wider strategic situation. If our navy is a spent force , but we have disrupted supply significantly at a critical time then we have done our job.:2thumbsup:

[AggonyDuck]

Right now I have a crazy idea: Let's penetrate the Channel and massacre everything. The RN will come down from Scapa and try to block our way back. However, we will not return this way but sail right through the Channel, from one end to the other leaving a trail of blood. The RN will be forced to follow. Once we reached the western end of the Channel we turn north and pass Ireland either on the eastern or on the western side. We can sink every convoy and ruin every port we meet there. Then we pass Scotland and fight our way back.
I know the plan is stupid, chances are low that any ship will ever return, however it would do much damage to the British supply, engage the RN for weeks and if we succeed the propaganda effect will be huge. Maybe we can get peace then. The clue is that we do something unexpected and that we can get a head start.

There's a vast difference between unexpected and something quite insane.
That plan has two problems, coal and ammunition. Even the bombardment of a single port tends to exhaust the ammunition relatively quickly, so there is no way we will be able to massacre everything in the channel. We simply can't carry enough ammo in our ships to do that. The second problem is coal or the lack of it. We simply don't have enough coal with us to go around England and even try to return to Germany, especially if we're planning to do it at full speed. So what we will end up with is a fleet without ammo and or fuel, just waiting to either be scuttled or captured by the Brits somewhere on the coast of Scotland. Talk about a propaganda victory.~D

Also when the crews will definately start a mutiny if we turn west instead of heading back home.


Do they? I do not think that the Brits have many big ships at the other side.

Not the British, the Americans. The USN prolly has some of it's battleships on escort duty in the Atlantic to handle the potential German battlecruiser threat. Atleast historically there were four of them in reserve for a situation where a battlecruisers would break out. Also considering the fact that Kraxis sent the four that were with the Grand Fleet to convoy escort duty there might be up to 8 USN battleships at the coast of Ireland.


Nonetheless, that's not important. What's more important is this: let's debate on what the Royal Navy's goal right now is. Remember, behind the other side are humans playing too. Certainly, with such a superiority in numbers and forces, the Royal Navy's not sitting around in total defence mode? What do you think they're trying to achieve, based on evidence we have and the "If I am the British Admiral" logic?

Well their ultimate goal is keeping the naval superiority and the blockade up and running, but they prolly entertain themselves with minor raids etc. that are offered by Kraxis at times. But ultimately they're forced to react to us and thus we hold the initiative and trust me initiative is a wonderful thing when used correctly.

Also as long as we stay off the wireless we should have a decent chance

[Rodion Romanovich]

Let us think again on why we are targeting Calais. I believe it is better to target an entry port into France as opposed to an English port. During WW1 London was the biggest port in the world, but realistically we could not attack it - access is up a long channel which would be virtually impossible to penertrate. Also the English have a lot of ports, so goods could be diverted. Calais has an easier approach - it is on the sea and is the nearest port to the front line - so it is more of a choke point than say London.
So assuming that Calais is the best target what next - well I think we will get one shot at this, so let us go with ample force to achieve what we want and stand a fighting chance of getting through any force it meets. Also, let us remember that these raids only cause a temporary disruption to supply, but the disruption we cause will be at a critical time as the offensive gets going.
To sum up - the raid will be risky, but if we do it with enough force it could swing the balance in the wider strategic situation. If our navy is a spent force , but we have disrupted supply significantly at a critical time then we have done our job.:2thumbsup:

But if we disrupt RN so much that we can move around freely we have a chance of winning the entire war and land troops in Britain. If there's a serious threat that we can both insert and supply a landing in Britain, the Tommies will maybe even more men from the front to Britain and be provoked to leave the war, thus making the land offensive against France much more likely to succeed. We really have two objectives: 1. keeping up the threat of a landing in Britain, AND 2. being able to disrupt enemy supply routes to France. The Calais raid will be a very good first step towards fulfilling objective 2, but if our fleet is spent in the process, the land offensive is likely to halt in half a month at most, and more than that is needed for victory. We must be able to repeat the raid and maybe also insert and supply a large force in Britain eventually. I don't think two weeks or so of disrupted logistics will be enough to win the land war, rather 2 or 3 months is a necessity. So I think we can afford to lose a few BBs and BCs in the raid, but no get the entire fleet shot to pieces. I'd like to know about if we have any more mine laying forces than our soon to be mine-equipped BBs. How fast are our smaller minelaying ships and how many mines can they carry? And how many mines are needed for a good minefield? I think a few thousand at the very least to get our retreat properly covered on the way back home from Calais. Remember that the earlier RN discovers us, the more likely they are to run into the minefield we lay, so their readiness might even be possible to turn into an advantage. But as I said I think Calais+death of entire fleet isn't an option. Calais and destruction of part of RN while suffering a few sunk and damaged ships is however fully acceptable. Calais and a crushing victory against the RN response force is the scenario we must strive for, and continue to improve the plan until it gets good enough to have very good chances of succeeding in that!

Btw I didn't mean raiding London, but blocking the entrance by mines or a scuttled pre-dreadnought or similar... But that was just a few examples of what we can do if we succeed. Calais is, I agree, the best objective if we can only hit one, and also the best option to start with if we can hit many. But if we open the path for more we have an ability to lift their blockade and disrupt their supplies heavily enough to be able to win the land offensive.

[Kraxis]

I won't comment on the Brits knowing about the Spring offensive, they might. After all it is a pretty wellknown battle. But I have not mentioned anything to them as realistically they would know nothing.

What is up to you really is to guage if they have solved the equation of looking at the date, the acticity and the strategic situation, and thus concluding it must be to a/the offensive.

Your ships have a range of about 5000km, enough to do the job Franc proposes, but not at top speed.
Each BB and BC carries around 700 shells. AP only works against ships and HE more or less only work against weak ships and land. A destroyers would suffer more damage from a HE than an AP because it is small and has no armour. A BB would hardly feel the effect in comparison to the AP.

The real goal of the Kaiserslchacht was to capture the three important channelports of Dunkerque, Calais and Boulogne. That would also create a situation for the British BEF similar to that in 1940.
With the BEF gone the French would fall very rapidly (in WWI terms).

The disruption only needs to be fairly temporary, a week should be sufficient given how close to victory the offensive really was.

[King Kurt]

Full marks to "Vice Admiral Kraxis" - obviously in tune with my master plan!!! - on to Calais and the war will be over before the leaves fall!!!!!:2thumbsup:

[Peasant Phill]

Before anybody starts having doubts whether or not we should realize our operation to support the offensive, remember that we have no choice but to support it. A victory in a war is only measured by annexed or defended land, not by how freely we can roam the seas. Sea superiority in itself will not bring the end of the war, it's only a mean to cut of the supply lines so the British troops in France and Belgium will be forced to surrender.

The plan that is forming seems a solid one and we only have to damage Calais enough to disrupt supplies for one week. As long as the Brits aren't waiting for us we should be able to pull it off ( I have no idea on casualties). We should however not forget to scout Calais and its surroundings discretely so we could be alarmed if they expect us whiteout giving ourselves away.

I know I'm saying what's obvious but it's important to keep the big picture in mind and not to lose ourselves in details or overlook vital things.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Damn if we can afford to lose all ships at the Calais raid and still win the war, then it's almost too easy! Because if we can afford to lose every single ship at Calais, splitting our force into two and making sure the cover and minelaying force will be between the raiding force and the RN will make it possible for us to delay the Brits several hours even if the cover force loses badly, giving plenty of time for our BCs to level the port in the meantime before getting trapped. Unless the RN from start keeps more ships at Calais than our BCs can handle (but scouting can reveal that), we'll pull it off with 100% chance of success... Let's unleash Operation King Kurt!

Edit: well there's actually one thing that could still threaten the raid, and that would be if they have mined the channel heavily... That's probably the only real threat we have left to find a way of circumventing.

[AggonyDuck]

Well there is atleast some minefields to stop the German submarines, but I'm not quite sure how substantial these actually are.

By the way I insist on sending our Kaiser-class battleships with the battlecruisers atleast. Should give us some extra punch, while still keeping us relatively fast. (the Kaiser class had a top speed close to 23 knots)

Also could we name it something else than Operation King Kurt?
Kinda destroy's the immersion to be honest. (and I'm relatively jealous too):embarassed:

So have we actually decided on an operational plan now? Also Kraxis if we prepare a plan, would you be prepared to use it in this Interactive History?

[discovery1]

Hey, why don't we take a fast transport or convoy raider with us to Calais? The catch is that it would be filled explosives. Course, we'd have to keep it from being hit on the way, but still, could be interesting. And I don't like the idea of loosing EVERY ship in the navy. It we do something that is blatently suicidal, I doubt that the crew would remain loyal. Nor do I think our persona is out to kill himself....

[Kraxis]

Wait a moment... I never said anything about any plans or some such.

Kicking Calais out would not be enough. The British would 'just' increase the flow to the other two ports. At best it would weaken the supplies with some percentage for a few days. So it isn't as if you just have a single bulleye target and merely need to get a single hit on it.

This will need some effort.

Argh... the more I say the more I get involved in your planning.

[discovery1]

It looks like we will have to beat the royal navy any way.

Hmmmm....

Any bright ideas? I still think we should send a dummy raid in a weeks time, while the real operation will be a raid on england. And make sure the brits have a vague idea about the fake raid.

The problem is that even if we do manage to spread the Tommies out, once we start interdicting the Channel then all of their ships in the North Sea will converge on us, and I'm pretty sure they will take less then a week to make the trip across the North Sea, plus the time it would take for the fleet to form up. Course, if you could get them to blunder into a minefield......

Edit: or get them to come at us a bit at a time. That would be perfect, if unlikely. Hey, if we fight our battle close to the shore, might we get land based air cover?

Edit2: Are there any convoys coming from nothern Norway? If we raid up there then the Tommies would have to spread themselves out even more and farther from the Channel. It's a long way for us though.....

[AntiochusIII]

Wait a moment... I never said anything about any plans or some such.

Kicking Calais out would not be enough. The British would 'just' increase the flow to the other two ports. At best it would weaken the supplies with some percentage for a few days. So it isn't as if you just have a single bulleye target and merely need to get a single hit on it.

This will need some effort.

Argh... the more I say the more I get involved in your planning.Pfft. You might be the Master but we the students learn fast. :2thumbsup:

...actually, I don't think you revealed any "confidential information" or opinions in this post: it's only a correction of a mistake in the understanding of "statistics."

Anyway, I am not a proponent of completely exhausting our resources away to achieve destruction at Calais, but only to completely focus our resources on this operation so we will have, at least if we are lucky, local superiorities during the attack. By the way, isn't Dunkerque closer to Wilhelmshaven than Calais? Wouldn't that be a nice second target and all?

Once the next chapter's up, we should review our plan and all. After the next chapter's up, though, right now anything can still happen.

Kraxis, what kind of espionage/scouting assets do we have access to around the area of our target?

[Flavius Clemens]

[QUOTE=Peasant Phill]We should however not forget to scout Calais and its surroundings discretely so we could be alarmed if they expect us whiteout giving ourselves away.
QUOTE]
If we're sending out Zeps to mine ports they might pick up a little info as a side benefit, but as they'll be working at night I guess they won't see much. I imagine it would be difficult to scout Calais etc without risk of the Zep being intercepted by fighters on the way there or back. On the other hand if U boats are operating in the area they must have some idea of the situation which they can feed back to us on return to port.

[AggonyDuck]

Wait a moment... I never said anything about any plans or some such.


I was just curious to know how much the planning we're doing now will actually influence our options in the coming chapters and how much influence do we actually have when it comes to planning operations.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Also could we name it something else than Operation King Kurt?
Kinda destroy's the immersion to be honest. (and I'm relatively jealous too)


I know it ruins the immersion. Jealous, yes, but I thought of Operation King Duck or Operation Aggony Kurt but it sounded even worse ~:( Actually I couldn't think of any good real name but I'm open for better suggestions for renaming of it :book: ~:)


Wait a moment... I never said anything about any plans or some such.

Kicking Calais out would not be enough. The British would 'just' increase the flow to the other two ports. At best it would weaken the supplies with some percentage for a few days. So it isn't as if you just have a single bulleye target and merely need to get a single hit on it.

This will need some effort.

Argh... the more I say the more I get involved in your planning.

Nice, then we can go back to the extensive and complex plan we had, including a detailed campaign of zeppeliner movements, minelaying and decisions made conditionally depending on what our zeppeliners find out, and start fixing the few flaws that still remain in the plan. :2thumbsup: Looking at the maps I actually realize that Calais alone won't change much - we need to try to destroy Boulogne and Dunquerque too to complete the encirclement and supply cutoff for BEF. How many ships and of which type do we need per port raid to keep the damage strong enough, and how much time does it take per port destruction? This is a crucial logistical question! If a port raid is fast enough we can send around the port raid force to raid all before returning home. If the ship force must be large enough and a port raid takes time, we might have to increase the port raid force to be able to split them between the harbors. In any case, if things get problematic, it's necessary that these split up port raid forces have a main target, so that if we run out of time they'll at least completely destroy one of the targets. We could give destruction of Calais ports highest priority as before, but also be open-minded to the possibility of destroying the other ports in the same raid, and make the judgement on what to do when we actually get there. If we manage to level all three ports in the raid and keep them out of action for two weeks or so, I'd say the BEF could be forced to surrender within three weeks or so. If we damage Calais only, we'll give our land troops enough room to reach the coast in the Amiens drive, but the BEF can still be supplied for a while and whether they win or not depends on whether they have high enough morale to stand an encirclement for a few weeks. Remember that if the encirclement and blockade of BEF isn't threatening enough, BEF might even manage to hold their positions while supplied over sea until the Americans and plenty of tanks can reestablish the link between BEF and the French.



It looks like we will have to beat the royal navy any way.


I think the proposed plan for the Calais raid has enough traps with minefields etc. for us to be able to also destroy a large portion of the RN, so I don't think that means we should still cancel the operation. Hopefully - even likely I'd say - RN will withdraw the moment they run into our minefield and 3 ships or so start listing, while we have joined our two task forces and they close in and start to shelling them in the minefield, while our zeppeliners spot and maybe even drop some bombs.



Edit2: Are there any convoys coming from nothern Norway? If we raid up there then the Tommies would have to spread themselves out even more and farther from the Channel. It's a long way for us though.....


I think that's a bit too risky, they can start and intercepting movement the moment the convoy reports it's being sunk. ~:(



Hey, why don't we take a fast transport or convoy raider with us to Calais? The catch is that it would be filled explosives. Course, we'd have to keep it from being hit on the way, but still, could be interesting.


I like that idea. If we have some transport that is clearly expendable and fast enough, that one ship has a potential of putting an entire port out of action for a week at the very least. But we need to have only a skeleton crew on it and some good method for the crew to get off and out of the way before it detonates, and cover the ship enough from shore weapons so it can get to the target position safely without being destroyed on the way by shore positions. We could send it in towards the port of the three that seems least defended at the time.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Operation Kaiser - operational plan
Summary or the suggestions for the plan...

Requirements before we start:
- the bight must be clear, so if RN puts a force outside the bight again, our first task must be to break out. If our breakout is successful enough in kill-loss ratio we can probably launch Operation Kaiser without many of the risks below existing at all.
- most of RN should preferably be at convoy escort duty and/or in Scapa Flow.

Phase 1: Choice of day
- preferably a cloudy day, but not necessary. The more clouds, the better the chances of our zeppeliners to carry out their important job.
- the first cloudy day after our damaged ships are repaired seems like a good choice.

Phase 2: Deception and Scouting
One of these two could be chosen:
- sneak out during the night
- do "training" in the afternoon, then by night instead of returning home go west during the night
All of these should be carried out:
- two or three zeppeliners to Scapa Flow, at least one should reach the port but the other(s) need only cover the path south in case anything goes wrong with the zeppeliner who reached Scapa Flow the others could just cover the route south by patrolling a fairly short distance south of Scapa Flow. They should all three be equipped with wireless to report what they see, but we need codewords for most possible things that could happen in order to not jeopardize the operation by the British intercepting their messages. The only messages we need is one for "British leave port with a significant force", and another for "zeppeliners must pull out and can't report correctly from now on" and one for "we've reached Scapa flow and the British have already left port with a force larger than 10 BBs".
- the rest of the zeppeliners to the Dogger Bank and some to the ports we will raid. If the weather is cloudy they can porbably reach the ports and scout them with pulpits. Otherwise they can mostly be kept at the Dogger Bank. They should be loaded with mines and also a few bombs.

Phase 3: Splitting of the main force
- The main surface force should be splitted up pretty early to make it more likely that the British only spot one of them and think our total strength is weaker than it is. The faster force of BCs and port raid forces should proceed to the ports while the others mine the Dogger Bank.

Phase 4a: Mining of the Dogger Bank
- The ships first move in and lay out a minefield. The zeppeliners then move in a drop their load of mines too. Together all forces could drop a total of perhaps 3000 mines or so. The minelaying force now moves a bit south of the minefield and waits. The zeppeliners stay over the minefield and a bit north of it too, and at the flank of the minefield, to see if any British surface forces are incoming.
- if the British come too early and with too many ships (zeppeliners north of the minefield will tell us), we might consider withdrawing. But if the deception works properly they'll either come with too few ships, too late, or both. If they come both too early and too strong, retreat is an option, but otherwise we can either battle them at this stage with the minelaying and cover force while RN is inside the minefield and our zeppeliners could drop some bombs and/or mines to surround them even more. Or in phase 6.
- save a few (1/5th should do) mines inside the BBs and zeppeliners for phase 6.

Phase 4b: Raiding of the ports
- One fast and expendable transport ship loaded with explosives is sent into the least defended port. It should be kept far from all other ships in the raiding force at all times, and only be loaded with a skeleton crew! If we can only find a fairly slow expendable ship, then Dunquerque could be it's target as Dunquerque is the closest port.
- The raiding force direct their main attack on Calais, but if it turns out possible they can split up and damage the other ports - Boulogne and Dunquerque - too. In case only one can be destroyed, Calais has the top priority. In the best case, we aim to destroy all three ports if it's logistically feasible. The exact decision should be made at the time of the operation, judging from the scouting data we obtain.
- Send a small force of mine sweeper ships with the raiding force. British mines in the channel could be devastating and jeopardize the entire operation. It's the only risk we can't avoid by just clever planning and acting according to the scouting reports
- The raiding force could perhaps insert some troops too.
- The raiding force, after completing it's objectives, goes east to join up with the minelaying force.

Phase 5: Choose battle or retreat
- if it turns out our force can battle the RN task force sent south to intercept us, or RN has a stronger force but is likely to run into the minefield, the two forces (minelaying and raid force) should join up rather than putting priority on minelaying force escaping.
- if it turns out we can't make it, the minelaying force should try to escape, even if the raid force is thus trapped.

Phase 6: the battle (if we chose battle in Phase 5)
- shelling them while in the minefield is a good idea. We can also zeppeliner bomb them, and maybe even drop mines around them from the zeppeliners. If this situation happens, we will win for sure.
- if we could, we should get some bombers from the army to bomb the RN even more while they're inside the minefield.
- if they avoid the minefield and start a movement to circumvent it, we can probably cover our retreat enough with mines dropped in our wake, and cruiser action similar to that of the last battle.
- if they know of the minefield the moment the sail from Scapa Flow, they'll choose another course to the east, meaning we won't gain that much time for retreat, but it's IMO still possible for us to retreat in that case if RN started sailing late enough or with too small force.
- in the worst case they manage to block us from returning AND miss the minefield AND bring a large enough force AND start from Scapa Flow early enough. What do we do then? I think that's a case that we could discover early and a case that we could make sure never took place by making a correct decision in phase 4b or earlier.
- if we sneak out during night as planned, the sun should be to the southeast or south by the time this battle takes place. The first part of the battle will have good sight for both sides, but the later phase will have the sun shining in their eyes meaning a small advantage to us.

Plan B:
- if we had to retreat in phase 4b or earlier due to discovering a too large RN force too early, we lay the minefield rotated a bit so it goes in southwest to northeast direction instead of west to east direction. Then we can safely lure southeast of it and still have a battle where RN is in a minefield, or a chance to withdraw safely if they don't run into our minefield. Hopefully we can damage them enough in that battle to be able to immediately resend the port raid force and continue the operation the same day. In the worst case we have to go back to port and can't launch the operation until a day or a few days later.
- plan B can fail in one case, and that is if RN doesn't get that much damage at all in the battle in the minefield, and successfully manage to pull back or reinforce their force. If the damage is large enough we can do a few raids and similar in the coming week to fix the odds and enable us to attempt the raid again. If the damage is almost zero, then us retreating to port puts us in a very difficult situation, but it's possible for us to make it even then, although the chances are small. For this, we must prepare a plan D.

Plan C:
- if we get into the worst case scenario in phase 6 by having not chosen plan B when we should have, we should ideally have a good plan C ready for that battle. Any tricks we can come up with for that situation are worth a lot! One advantage we have is that if they move around the minefield they must come at us from the east, and will then have the sun in their face during the entire battle.

Plan D:
- here we must plan an extensive campaign of smaller battles to fix the odds.

[discovery1]

I like that idea. If we have some transport that is clearly expendable and fast enough, that one ship has a potential of putting an entire port out of action for a week at the very least. But we need to have only a skeleton crew on it and some good method for the crew to get off and out of the way before it detonates, and cover the ship enough from shore weapons so it can get to the target position safely without being destroyed on the way by shore positions. We could send it in towards the port of the three that seems least defended at the time.

I figured it would be covered by our main raiding force, so it shouldn't be too hard to surpress shore positions. What was that Canadian port that had a ship blow up in it? And how extensive was the damage?

Would it be worth notifying the locals that we are going to blow up a ship filled with explosives? Killing them would be a propoganda coup for the Allies, but if they get away unscathed then it might make rebuilding easier. Or should I not mention this?

Woah, huge post. I need to sleep though :(

[Ludens]

The plan sounds good, LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, though I think we should keep it as simple as possible. My main question whether it is actually possible to lay a minefield that is large enough and dense enough to significantly hinder the RN in such a very short time. Even if we know their location and course (and we have no GPS or sattelites), we still need to cover a very large surface of water, and I don't think more than one mine in twenty will actually do some damage.

Also, I think there should be contengency plans for when our fleet is spotted early, or accidentally runs into a patrol or convoy.

Lastly, I think a few more codewords for our Scapa Flow scouts would be in order. A good plan takes into account that unexpected things may happen.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I figured it would be covered by our main raiding force, so it shouldn't be too hard to surpress shore positions. What was that Canadian port that had a ship blow up in it? And how extensive was the damage?

The damage is certainly enough to keep the port out of action for a week or more. During ww2 there were incidents of ammo ships exploding in ports which put them out of action for a very long time. Besides, the good thing about these ports is that they're on the French coast and not the British coast, meaning any reparations will have to be done with equipment that BEF has in their encirclement. I can imagine they can't repair a damaged port as quickly as the guys in Dover or any other place in Britain could do.



Would it be worth notifying the locals that we are going to blow up a ship filled with explosives? Killing them would be a propoganda coup for the Allies, but if they get away unscathed then it might make rebuilding easier. Or should I not mention this?

The best way of alerting the locals would be if we used this ship technique against Dunquerque, as it's the closest port. While the raiding force moves west, they make sure the transport ship gets to the port and can be scuttled at the entrace. Then the skeleton crew is unloaded while the locals are alerted about the explosion that is about to come. In the meantime the BCs and main raiding force sail on to Calais, wasting no time caused by the alerting of the locals in Dunquerque. The locals would get enough time that way before our BCs come back from Calais/Boulogne. When they come back from Calais/Boulogne, they fire some shells at the scuttled and by then empty ship, so that it explodes. Should make it possible to both alert the locals and avoid wasting any time or revealing our plans too early.


Also, I think there should be contengency plans for when our fleet is spotted early, or accidentally runs into a patrol or convoy.

Lastly, I think a few more codewords for our Scapa Flow scouts would be in order. A good plan takes into account that unexpected things may happen.

I agree to both. Any suggestions on how to do this? The main problem we could run into would be if the raiding force, that moves ahead of the cover force, runs into too heavy opposition, a convoy, or a patrol or similar. As for the scouts, which codewords do you think are missing?

[SwordsMaster]

Originally Posted by Ludens
Also, I think there should be contengency plans for when our fleet is spotted early, or accidentally runs into a patrol or convoy.

Lastly, I think a few more codewords for our Scapa Flow scouts would be in order. A good plan takes into account that unexpected things may happen.


I have a suggestion here:

Assign simply numbers as codes: say if you receive '1': "Superior British force leaving"

'10': "Zeppeliner not in position"
'11': "Zeppeliner shot, interrupting transmission"


etc. The ones to do with the brits should be simply 1-digit numbers, and the ones to do with the zeps, should be 2 digit numbers. Or something. This allows you to assign '0' to "Other unexpected situation, potentially dangerous".

As of patrols or convoys: Depends on which force runs into it. If it is the raiding force, destroy the convoy and return home. If it is the minelaying force, continue with the raid to the nearest port (or Calais) - we will only be able to hit one, probably - , destroy the convoy, and layout the mines in such a way they facilitate retreat.

[AggonyDuck]

The minefield should be placed west of the Dogger Bank, not at the Dogger Bank. Here's a picture where I'd personally like to place the minefield at:
https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7330/doggerbank2eu.th.jpg (https://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doggerbank2eu.jpg)

The red line is the Dogger Bank and the Yellow line is the minefield.

Btw how about naming the operation König instead of Kaiser. Might even confuse the Brits if the name leaks out.

Also the plan with the ammunition ship is rather nasty really, but it would be devastating if it actually reached the Calais port. Just look at what an ammunition ship did at: Halifax Explosion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Explosion),Port Chicago Disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Chicago_disaster) and Bombay Explosion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Explosion_%281944%29)

If we actually could pull off something even close to the size of Halifax explosion in Calais, then we could propably level the city and the explosion would be heard to the front atleast. So it would definately have a massive demoralizing effect. But to be honest the idea has one problem. I'm not sure if we are able to scrounge up enough ammo in this short time and getting the ship to the Port is easier said than done.

[Ludens]

I have a suggestion here:

Assign simply numbers as codes: say if you receive '1': "Superior British force leaving"

'10': "Zeppeliner not in position"
'11': "Zeppeliner shot, interrupting transmission"


etc. The ones to do with the brits should be simply 1-digit numbers, and the ones to do with the zeps, should be 2 digit numbers. Or something. This allows you to assign '0' to "Other unexpected situation, potentially dangerous".
Sounds good, but I do think the zeps should be able to accuratly describe the British at Scapa: how many of what are going in which direction, how many of what are staying, how many are in drydock and some miscalleneous things like how fast/how much steam they are producing (going at full steam or making a leisurly pace: the first ships to leave Scapa may not have been assigned to hunt us).


As of patrols or convoys: Depends on which force runs into it. If it is the raiding force, destroy the convoy and return home. If it is the minelaying force, continue with the raid to the nearest port (or Calais) - we will only be able to hit one, probably - , destroy the convoy, and layout the mines in such a way they facilitate retreat.
I think that if the raiding force runs into a convoy it should be strong enough to destroy it. Then it should turn to home, but as soons as they are out of sight they should double back and hit the nearest port. Hopefully the British will think it was just a convoy raid or something and don't bother to pursue. We'll lose a lot of time this way, but I hope to make up for that by just raiding the nearest port.

[Peasant Phill]

Sounds good, but I do think the zeps should be able to accuratly describe the British at Scapa: how many of what are going in which direction, how many of what are staying, how many are in drydock and some miscalleneous things like how fast/how much steam they are producing (going at full steam or making a leisurly pace: the first ships to leave Scapa may not have been assigned to hunt us).

We are commanding the fleet, we don't have to burry ourselves in every little detail. Let us just constrain ourselves to the outlines of the code and let some trusted en competent subordinate make it for us while we try to refine operation Kaizer/Kö.

The outlines:
- a number code
- it should be able to sketch the zep situation
- it should be able to sketch the RN situation concerning
how many of what are going in which direction, how many of what are staying, how many are in drydock and some miscalleneous things like how fast/how much steam they are producing

[Flavius Clemens]

Whilst I agree with the importance of coordinating scouting, port attacks and dealing with the RN, this does does sound like a very complicated plan.

My biggest concern is whether the size of minefield we can realistically create in the time will be a big enough trap, given the size of sea the RN can approach from and will be able to manoeuver within. It may be the equivalent of putting one mousetrap in the middle of a room, (as opposed to the minefield around out bases, which is a set of mousetraps around the mousehold) and if our own forces are sitting in one fixed position waiting as bait this looks v. suspicious.

Conversely, as we have highlighted Channel minefields as a risk to our forces, do our minesweepers have the speed to keep up with our main force?

If we are able to use an explosive packed ship to take out one of the ports I think leaving it in situ while giving a warning and then hoping to detonate it by shellfire on our return leaves us a hostage to events. If we're shelling the port the locals will have taken whatever cover they can anyway - so I don't think there's much increased risk of civilian casualties if we just put it in place with a time fuse set just long enough to allow the crew to get away.

Perhaps we could split to take out Calais, Boulogne and Dunkerque as follows

small force with 'bomb ship' (with Betruger?) sneaks to Boulogne
main force to bombard Calais (biggest target, medium distance)
predednaughts land troops at Dunkerque (closest target, given that the older ships will be slower).

And in an effort to fool the British how about occasional radio communications etc implying we're gearing up to land in force in the Newcastle area with the aim of drawing British troops as far away from France as possible, a couple of weeks after our real operation is planned. Then if their spies see us performing landing drills with troops they're thrown off the scent of our real target and timing.

[Kraxis]

There are some problems with the 'bomb ship' approach.

First of all, you do not have much in terms of explosives. You have cordite, but that has to be packed pretty densely to give an explosion. If a lot of specific sicumstances aren't fulfilled it will either explode lightly or simply burn.
Part of the reason the big ships exploded so violently was because their ammo bunks were closed off to a great extent, protected by a lot of armour and had the entire ship on top. The expanding gasses had nowhere to go, so *boom*.

But you have expended a whole lot of cordite lately, and to be honest the factories are running low in supplying you, and making stocks for the offensive. You have of course been given a lower priority.

At best you would have enough for a single 'bomb ship'.
But that leaves the problem, what will be used?
There are a lot of fairly large merchants in the ports near you. But generally they can't sail more than 10-12 knots. There are of course the few commerce raiders that have managed to survive this long, they can go around 16 knots. But they might be too big and their refit has seen a lot of restructuring, they might not be able to cause a major explosion with cordite.
Then there is the possibility of a warship, but it is fairly limited how much you can stuff into a torpedoboat or destroyer, and they might not cause an explosion as well. A light cruiser might be a better choice, or for that matter a pre-dreadnought. But the PD is not very fast (though not slower than the commerce raiders) and hardly nimble.

[discovery1]

Bummer. Still, those ports are rather busy are they not? Might we get lucky and find an allied ammo ships just waiting for us to blow it up? Ohh, during the raid we should be care what ships we shoot at. Wouldn't want to set off a small nuke while we are close.....

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, hopefully we'll find one in the port ~:)

@Flavius Clemens: As for the complexness of the plan, it's really only a simple plan of one cover+mine force and one raiding force, but the thing that makes it look complex is additions of details on how to react to most enemy actions we could think could happen during the plan.

Also I think if we are to land troops, Boulogne is probably the best place to do so, because the offensive is aimed at Amiens and the coast west of Amiens, then followed by a drive north towards first Boulogne, then Calais and Dunquerque. A force landed in Boulogne could certainly help the offensive a lot and they stand a great chance of being able to link up with the rest of the land forces rather than being forced to surrender after a few hours like a force in the other ports would probably be.

That means:
- Betruger moves in to Boulogne first (Betruger is very fast and so can deal with this far away target), and launches torpedoes into any ships that are in the harbor. If we're lucky an ammo ship or similar will detonate. Then a few torpedo boats move in to quickly unload the landing force, and the ships then quickly move east to join the Calais shelling. However if Boulogne turns out to be crowded by a heavy British convoy escort Betruger will have to go back to Calais and land the troops there instead.
- Main force bombards Calais heavily. 2 BCs is probably minumum for this, and they'll be joined by the returning Betruger and torpedo boats.
- Pre-dreadnoughts shell Dunkerque and are ready to help Calais or Boulogne force in an emergency case. 2-3 pre-dreadnoughts would probably do.

1-2 of our fastest BBs could also join the raiding forces, and be kept at Calais in reserve to join up with either of the raiding forces that would need help. We could expect the British to have a strength of at least a normal or twice a normal convoy escort force in the channel area, so we must have enough forces to be able to deal with that. The good thing about having our fastest forces for the raid is that they can undoubtedly get back and join the cover force so quickly that we don't need to worry too much about sending away a large force for the raid because we'll still get almost our full strength for the battle that might take place at the minefield - our zeppeliners will also be able to forewarn us so early that if needed we can send those BBs back. So it would theoretically be even possible to send all 4 of our Nassau class BBs with the raiding force, although I think 2 would be enough.


The size of the minefield is a problem, but if we put the minefield in any of the two spots marked on this map it would maximize the chances of the RN running into it:

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/map.jpg

Our minesweepers for the channel raid force is the other big problem, which I so far haven't found any solution to. But we have an entire month, so would it be impossible to upgrade the engines of a few of our minesweepers in the coming month?

[AggonyDuck]

1-2 of our fastest BBs could also join the raiding forces, and be kept at Calais in reserve to join up with either of the raiding forces that would need help. We could expect the British to have a strength of at least a normal or twice a normal convoy escort force in the channel area, so we must have enough forces to be able to deal with that. The good thing about having our fastest forces for the raid is that they can undoubtedly get back and join the cover force so quickly that we don't need to worry too much about sending away a large force for the raid because we'll still get almost our full strength for the battle that might take place at the minefield - our zeppeliners will also be able to forewarn us so early that if needed we can send those BBs back. So it would theoretically be even possible to send all 4 of our Nassau class BBs with the raiding force, although I think 2 would be enough.



I still insist that the our remaining Kaiser-class BB's go with the raid. They have good speed for a battleship (about 23 knots) and can definately add a good punch to the BC's.

The problem with your minefield positioning it assumes that the RN will follow us down into the channel. More likely is that they will take an intercepting position to cut off our escape routes.
Also if the RN arrives late and we're already out of the channel, then the minefield will have been for naught.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I still insist that the our remaining Kaiser-class BB's go with the raid. They have good speed for a battleship (about 23 knots) and can definately add a good punch to the BC's.


Hm, I might have gotten it wrong - which was the fastest of Kaiser-class and Nassau-class? I suppose you know it better than I do so I guess it was Kaiser-class I meant above...



The problem with your minefield positioning it assumes that the RN will follow us down into the channel. More likely is that they will take an intercepting position to cut off our escape routes.
Also if the RN arrives late and we're already out of the channel, then the minefield will have been for naught.

Yes, it depends on how early they start moving south. Maybe we could add another part of the plan, so depending on when they leave, we lay the mines to cover the intercepting course or the channel course? But I guess the others will complain if the plan gets even more complicated :oops:

[AggonyDuck]

There is another aspect which we seem to have forgotten in our planning and it's time. Do we actually have a month to finish the repairs?

We currently have three battlecruisers (Von Der Tann, Seydlitz and Derfflinger) with Hindenburg added if we wait the three weeks needed for its repairs. Moltke will take a long while.

Battleships:

Now ready:
Nassau, Rheinland and Posen (Nassau class)
Thüringen (Helgoland class)
Friedrich der Grosse, Kaiserin and König Albert (Kaiser class)

In two weeks:
Baden (Bayern class)

In three weeks:
Kaiser (Kaiser class)
Grosser Kurfürst and Kronprinz Wilhelm (König class)

In four weeks hopefully:
Bayern (Bayern class)
König (König class)

Of course about half a week has already passed since Kraxis gave the estimates, so I should have prolly reduced -½ week from every estimate.

[Rodion Romanovich]

That sounds ok, IMO we will have enough if we wait the three weeks, which would then by now be two and a half weeks.

[Flavius Clemens]

Also I think if we are to land troops, Boulogne is probably the best place to do so, because the offensive is aimed at Amiens and the coast west of Amiens, then followed by a drive north towards first Boulogne, then Calais and Dunquerque. A force landed in Boulogne could certainly help the offensive a lot and they stand a great chance of being able to link up with the rest of the land forces rather than being forced to surrender after a few hours like a force in the other ports would probably be.


That makes sense. Question is how big a naval force do we need to transport the troops we need. The Hartlepool raid was going to use several torpedo boats, and we now have a larger infantry force to transport.

And on the minelaying operations, I agree that the areas you have marked are the obvious target areas, but they are many miles wide. So what I'm still not sure of is how large a field we can lay with the time and ships available. If we lay say 3,000 mines (a figure someone suggested earlier) at 50 metre intervals that's a 150 kilometres line, but how many lines would we lay? If say 10 parallel lines would be normal then our minefield would be 15 km wide (less if we make a U shape) and is that enough to have reasonable confidence the British will run into it rather than just passing it without even knowing it's there? I've been digging around on google to try and find info on what would be normal minelaying tactics, but haven't found much to shed light on this, so I'm still open to clarification on how feasible the mine trap is.

I did however find this interesting article on combined air, surface and submarine actions by the German navy http://www.gwpda.org/naval/igncompf.htm This backs up the general strategy and implies Zeps were used to identify minefields, so this would be of use in helping us know what defences the ports have. (I'm sure they will have defensive minfields to keep us out.)

Also, fleshing out my earlier thoughts, how about this as our deception strategy to mislead the British as to our real plans:
Operation Schloss (German for castle)
The Hartlepool raid, which they now know about from POWs, was a rehearsal for a major attack on the Newcastle area.
Purpose of the Newcastle attack is
a) to take out the Tyneside shipbuilding and repair facilities
b) to take out the coal supply from the many mines in the area
c) to draw the British army north to counterattack, thereby reducing their ability to reinforce France.
The planned D-day is one week after our real plan to attack the French ports and we think the RN has been sufficiently weakened to be defeated by our fleet and the many U boats we will be deploying to ambush them en route to our battleships.

[Kagemusha]

Thank you all for your very good relplies to my post my friends.:2thumbsup: Lets move from simple to not so simple.First question: Who is the attacker and who is the defender?
My answer:We are. In a normal situation the attacker should have Numerical or value superiority over the defender.We dont have either.

Why is this so?
My answer: Becouse we are only supporting in the end our land forces.

So we are supporting a deciseve raid to channel to support our land offensive?
My answer: Counter question: Is it worthy to loose our entire fleet?

Maybe im here in the wrong page becouse in my opinion we are here to fight against the British fleet.And our tactical goal is to cripple or destroy it.Have Kraxis even given us a preparing order to support our grand offensive on the ground?No.We are looking through the history how it happened and thinking,becouse it happened in reality this way,it has to happen this way also in this interactive history too?Can i ask why?We havent even got an order from admiralty to hit Calais,or have we not.Also another thing,lets go into British shoes.First rule when you are deploying your troops in defence. Go to the direction where you are waiting for your enemy to come and look like you were the enemy and find the weak points from that defensive deployment.Have we done this thing when we are looking for our offensive?If we have a smart enemy.They let us in the Calais and cut us off.Allright we have severaly disrupted enemys troop movements for a moment.
Also we have lost our fighting capacity.And for example by doing that allow British to make landings behind our lines.Once again like i sayed earlier.Our tactical goal is to destroy/cripple British fleet and that will allow us to gain our strategig goal to restrict the troop movements between British Isles and France.
And if we are even trying to fullfill those goals as the smaller opponent.We should be unpredictable,innovative and tiring enemy.We should be always doing something that irritates the enemy.Every boat we sink sink makes the odds slightly better for us.:bow:

[Lord Winter]

Our two objectives as i see them are:
1. cut the channel link
2. break the blockade

I think we can only do one and we have to decide which will be more decisive. So the effects of breaking the blockade would be:
1. More supplies for the army
2. Naval supremacy (presuming that we will have too destroy the British fleet to accomplish this.
3. Better bargaining position
4. Inability to influence the offensive.

Cutting the channel link:
1. Massive casualties to our fleet.
2. Good chance that the offensive will break through.

Historically the germans lost the war because they couldn't compete with the superior supplies of the allies. So IMHO if we are to effect the course of the war it must be by breaking the channel link.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think we can actually achieve both. Maybe Kage is right that we should stuff in another battle operation before the channel raid, but we haven't got too much time and for any operation we carry out before then it's essential that losses are kept VERY low.

Also, we have no risk of losing our entire fleet in the operation, that's why we have such a thorough plan for our zeppeliner scouting, to be able to abort if we run into problems. The decision on whether to turn back or proceed to the channel ports is made when we've gone far enough to be able to hit the ports and return home before an RN force can intercept us. If it turns out it's all clear then, we proceed, otherwise we turn home. The good thing about this operation is therefore that we stand a great chance of doing either of these or both of them:
1. luring down an underdimensioned RN force to intercept us, but we join our two forces and destroy them, hopefully even getting them to run into our minefield
2. completely cut off BEF or, if we fail at one or two of the ports, at least severely weaken their supply lines at least enough to allow the land offensive to reach the coast, thus completing the first of the two objectives of the offensive (i. cut of BEF from French forces, ii. cut off BEF from supplies to force BEF's surrender)

Whether it becomes a risky operation or not is decided at the time of the actual operation, depending on what the zeppeliners report! Going out of port with a massive fleet and sending it in the direction of the channel while RN remains in port isn't risky at all, it's when we pass the lattitude of East Anglia and go deeper into the channel that it starts getting risky, unless we can confirm that enough of RN remains in port.

[AggonyDuck]

Our tactical goal is to destroy/cripple British fleet and that will allow us to gain our strategic goal to restrict the troop movements between British Isles and France.


The problem here is that we can't defeat them in a massive decisive battle, but at the same time we lack the time needed to actually slowly sink the Grand Fleet ship by ship. This is the dilemma that we actually have at the moment.

Also if we do an extensive zep recon we will have ample time to escape if the Grand Fleet is somewhere where it threatens to cut us off. None of us is actually thinking of a allowing our fleet be cut off in the Channel. Even getting in such a position would mean a severe failure of our recon.


It seems that our forces will consist of 11 Battleships and 4 Battlecruisers, which is a pretty nice size fleet for the operation we are planning.

[Franconicus]

Now that we decided to intercept the supply in the Channel, there are still some open issues:

How are the targets protected. Do we get informations about forts, batteries and minefields?

Where to lay our minefields? I do not agree with the proposals that have been made so far. The minefields would be too thin and there would be a chance that the RN would bypass them. If we have good recon then we could decide where we meet the RN. If we lay our field for example near the coast of the Netherlands we could lure the RN into it. Then we could make the field smaller and more dense.


Maybe like this:


RN

mm ------------------------- mm
mmm ---------------------- mmm
mmm ---------------------- mmm
mmmm --------------------mmmm
mmmmmmm--------mmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
------------------------mmmmmmmm
Imperial Fleet-----------------mmmm
-------------------mmmm
cccccccccccccccccccccccccc
B B B B B B B B

(RN= Royal Navy, m= mines, c=coast line, B= coastal batteries)


The name of the operation: Why Kaiser? The reputation of the Kaiser is not so good, the army does not care about him anymore. We need something else. The name of the spring operation will be Michel. We could use something unsuspicious like that (Westwind for example) or something patriotic (like Siegfried, Nibelungen or Donnerschlag).

The timing. When will we leave the harbor. Day or night? When will we penetrate the Channel and attack the harbors? Day or night? I remember that the German fleet crossed the Channel during WW2 at daytime!! This was a big surprise to the Brits and therefore successful!


kage, please imagine we fight the RN and we win. The blockade will be broken, however we will have high casualties too. There will be more supply for the army but still the Entende will have more. And after a short time the Brits bring more ships from the Med, from the Pacific, from the US etc. . So that would not bring victory.

But maybe we could combine our goals. First attack the harbors (priority 1) then fight the RN when we retreat. If they got cought inside a mine field ????

[King Kurt]

A few days holidays - 2 pages of posts!!

I won't answer specific points - just pass a few comments

Personally I would not get too excited about some form of minefield trap - I just don't think it would work and we don not have the resources to build a minefield of sufficent density and size to be effective. They were always laid at pinch points or defending a port, not on the high seas - there may even be a question of weither it is technically possible to do it in the depth of water.

I think the points about raiding all 3 ports are well made - we should consider raiding 2 or possibly all 3 - Breuteger plus a few supports to 1, Main force to Calais, Pre drednaughts plus troops to nearest.

I personally the explosive ship will not work - traditionally such raids used a block ship and we have the perfect ship type in the predrednaughtts.

I don't think we will loose the majority of the fleet in the action - we take a lot of damage, but it has been difficult to sink our BBs - they have to be overwhelmed 2 or 3 to 1. We might take a mauling but as long as we put a lot of effort into diversion I think we can pull it off.

Kraxis - perhaps you should post with a series of option of what we could plan - otherwise we will all be debating options till the cows come home!! - Are the English as arguementative as us??:2thumbsup:

[Franconicus]

Personally I would not get too excited about some form of minefield trap - I just don't think it would work and we don not have the resources to build a minefield of sufficent density and size to be effective. They were always laid at pinch points or defending a port, not on the high seas - there may even be a question of weither it is technically possible to do it in the depth of water.
Well, if we do the minefield close to the coast of the Netherlands we could start to do it right now. We could do it with night operations. Even if the Tommies find out they may think we are doing this to protect the coast from seaborne attacks. So we would have two or three weeks to build that field.

From what I have red: a British admiral does not care about the size of the enemies, he does not care of he has to fight against superority, he does not even care if hemight get sunk. That is wha he is a British admiral. However, he does not like mines. Sailing a big ship on mines does not give you honor. The Brits lost some ships through mines during the Galapoli operation. The Brits stopped chasing the German fleet after Jutland just because they feared thatthe Germans might use mines. (That also indecates that you can use mines in open waters).

So I assume that the Brits will retreat as soon as they realize that the Germans use mines.

[Peasant Phill]

I have an idea on the name of the operation. I know it's only a detail but because I'm no expert on naval warfare (even my grasp on history is leaves much to be desired) I really can't contribute more to the plan than giving some vague comment on suggestions.

1° suggestion: operation swordfish ( I wanted to translate it in German but my electronic dictionary abandoned me, but Franc could possibly help with that). I liked it because a swordfish, or orca, is known to launch itself on a shore to swipe seals back to sea.

2° suggestion: operation zephyrus.
I liked the west wind suggested by Franc and I remembered a painting made by Botticelli (Allegory, I think) where you could see, amongst other mythological figures, Zephyrus (the personification of the west wind) and he was prodding the spring to come. it's a nice reference to the spring offensive

I like them both as both give a hint to its content but will be of little use to the RN if they come to hear the name. Our own little inside joke as a good operation name should be.

[Franconicus]

1° suggestion: operation swordfish ( I wanted to translate it in German but my electronic dictionary abandoned me, but Franc could possibly help with that). I liked it because a swordfish, or orca, is known to launch itself on a shore to swipe seals back to sea..
Schwertfisch

2° suggestion: operation zephyrus.
I liked the west wind suggested by Franc and I remembered a painting made by Botticelli (Allegory, I think) where you could see, amongst other mythological figures, Zephyrus (the personification of the west wind) and he was prodding the spring to come. it's a nice reference to the spring offensive
[/QUOTE]
Maybe Zephyr, that is the German name for smooth westwind.

Both names sound very professional, don't they?:2thumbsup:

[Lord Winter]

The mindfeild probably wont work, theres too big of a chance of them missing it.


Also, fleshing out my earlier thoughts, how about this as our deception strategy to mislead the British as to our real plans:
Operation Schloss (German for castle)
The Hartlepool raid, which they now know about from POWs, was a rehearsal for a major attack on the Newcastle area.
Purpose of the Newcastle attack is
a) to take out the Tyneside shipbuilding and repair facilities
b) to take out the coal supply from the many mines in the area
c) to draw the British army north to counterattack, thereby reducing their ability to reinforce France.
The planned D-day is one week after our real plan to attack the French ports and we think the RN has been sufficiently weakened to be defeated by our fleet and the many U boats we will be deploying to ambush them en route to our battleships.
I think we should try it, it might help if we send a zepline to scout out new castle. Also we need another scappa recon mission.

[Ludens]

The more I hear about the minefield, the more sceptic I become. Is it even possible to lay that many mines in such a short time? And will the British even notice? If we make it too think the British will miss it if we make it too thin they may sail through it without suffering significant damage. I don't think we can stop the RN should they chose to enter the channel, but that is exactly what we have to avoid. Our best hope is that they won't do so in force, but they will only do that if they believe that we still have significant force back home. Given their superior intelligence, they will know that we are out there in force as well.

I am rather pessimistic about our chances of success.

BTW, the swordfish and the orca are two distinct species: the former is a fish, the latter a mammal. Your are probably thinking of the term swordwhale. Not that it has any relevance to our discussion, though :smug: .

[AggonyDuck]

To be honest the skepticism against the minefield is quite accurate. I initially suggested it because I lived in the belief that the RN wouldn't sail through the Dogger Bank, which seems to have been a mistake by me. (well I don't have naval charts to check that though)

A minefield won't stop the Brits and they can certainly go around it, but the fact is that a minefield of drifting mines laid somewhere close to the English coast is relatively inexpensive, can cause a lot of annoyance and definately takes a lot of effort to sweep. We don't really lose anything in laying these mines and thus the biggest question is where do we place it so that it can cause the most harm.

Personally though I'm not really sure on the optimal location of the minefield though.

[Flavius Clemens]

We should distinguish between laying a minefield and dropping free floating mines behind us. I believe it was the latter (and torpedoes) which the British were afraid of during the German retreat after Jutland. This must be a pretty easy tactic, and feasible whatever the depth of the water, but sheer luck whether or not they hit the pursuers. Also if the mines are stored on deck for laying they must be a real risk of a major explosion if a shell hits us.

So we're back to the question is it feasible for us to lay a minefield dense enough and big enough to be of use in a battle in open sea, and I suspect Kraxis will be researching this at the moment.

In our plans we should also remember that our reconnaissance will not be 100% perfect. It's highly unlikely we would get ideal weather conditions right across the North Sea and even if we do the spotters will make mistakes. For instance, in the reference I posted earlier about German combined tactics, it cited a Zeppelin identifying light forces from Harwich as battleships.

The general plan of scout as well as possible, confuse and distract the British, hit our targets as hard as possible and only fight their fleet on our terms holds true, but the fog of war will mess up the details for both sides.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I agree to the scouting issues. But if we can only get Scapa Flow scouted we get pretty decent info. The ships that aren't in Scapa Flow must be somewhere on the sea. We can assume that about 80-90% of all ships that aren't at Scapa are likely to be headed for us (the rest being at convoys etc). As long as our zeps get to Scapa properly the most important part of the scouting can be completed.

[Franconicus]

The more I hear about the minefield, the more sceptic I become. Is it even possible to lay that many mines in such a short time? And will the British even notice?
We should lay the field close to the coast were we have access and start right now, even before the operation. Then we have three weeks, should be enough. Maybe we leave a channel open. Our fleet could pass and and throw some more mines to block the passage.:bomb2: :bomb2: :bomb2:

Given their superior intelligence, they will know that we are out there in force as well.
Maybe we can use this. We should leave our harbor during day, with 'guns and drums', a big parade, etc. We could invite the Kaiser to make a speech. :cheerleader: :cheerleader: Let's pretend we are trying to show that we are still alive after all those casualties. Maybe we pretend to do a manoeuvre or to raid along Denmark coast with our entire fleet. Or we pretend to set sail towards Finland.
:captain: Then, when night falls, we change our course and sail to the Channel. Maybe we can enter it during daylight, too. Then let's vaporise our targets and run. If we are lucky, we can use night to escape.
I know my timing may sound silly. I do not have much experience with navies and their speed.

[Franconicus]

I have an idea how to fool British intelligence.

We do as if the last battles broke our ability and will to fight. We pretend that we have enough and that we are going to transfer our heavies to the Baltic sea. We transfer some training units as well as supply units to Rostock and prepare the docks there to take our ships.

Then, when our force is ready, we mascarate them so that they look as if they are wrecks. Then the Kaiser will come, he will make a speach that the surface ships made a good performance during the last weeks, they caused high casualties to the enemy, but now the job is done. The age of the big vessels is over and now the submarines will play the major role in this game. Then, in the afternoon, our ships set sail and leave the harbor with flowers, music and everything.

As soon as night falls we change our course and raid the Channel.:2thumbsup:

By the way, we have to talk about some preparations:
It might be that we will be chased by the whole RN and that some of our ships will bedamaged.
Therefor we should prepare one or two 'rescue ports', maybe in the Netherlands, which iare secured by mines and where the damaged ships can find shelter.
We have also to e aware that the RN will be waiting for us at the mine belt at the entrance of our home base. I think it would be a good idea if we open a second passage through this barrier so that we will have a backdoor where we can slip in without a fight. Both actions can be started immediatelly.

What do you think?

[King Kurt]

Franc you are right we need some form of deception to mask our attack - yours sounds elaborate and may not work by being too obvious - maybe some more subtler means such as ordering cold weather gear, preparations at Baltic ports may work.
The bolt hole ports are a good idea - I would think Zeebruge would be an option - ironically the target of a British raid - with a blockship - as it was an important U-Boat base and Antwerp. Antwerp would be a good bolt hole for our larger ships.
A back door in the minefield again is a good idea, but would be difficult to do without the English finding out - we must recon the Bight reguarly to find where they are.:2thumbsup:

[AggonyDuck]

Franc your idea of building a minefield somewhere closer to the coast of Netherlands and then luring the enemy there is definately a sound one, except for the fact that we definately risk a chance of running into it ourself.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I like the idea. Remember, AggonyDuck, that a minefield we make near the coast now, as opposed to making a minefield during the raid, means mines won't be of the same freely floating type, so our risks of running into it are very small. I like the idea, and it's a good way of keeping ourselves occupied in the time between now and the raid which can take place in two and a half weeks. Actually, if we manage to lay it rather unnoticed, we could maybe lay the other minefield during the raid. If we're planning carefully we could make the British find out about one of the two minefields, and place the other so that if they adjust course to avoid one of them they run into the other. I still think laying mines during the raid is a good idea even if we lay mines now.

[Avicenna]

Crazy nut that's been isolated from the world in his own dark hole comes out:

"OH MY GOD WE'RE AT WAR!! PRAISE THE LORD!!"

[Ludens]

Crazy nut that's been isolated from the world in his own dark hole comes out:

"OH MY GOD WE'RE AT WAR!! PRAISE THE LORD!!"
Although the war seems to have come to a standstill lately. I do hope Kraxis is not unwell.

[AggonyDuck]

Maybe we just went a bit too far with the planning.:oops:

[Rodion Romanovich]

I haven't seen Kraxis around at all in a while, I hope he's ok :sad:

[Kommodus]

Maybe we just went a bit too far with the planning.:oops:

Well, plans can be debated back and forth endlessly, spawning ever-more-numerous and complicated variations. However, I'm sure Kraxis knows he's under no obligation to conform to our plans, or even to take them into account. In the end, we choose from the options he gives us, and those options are up to him.

I know that if I wrote an alternate history, I wouldn't try to incorporate every hair-brained idea suggested. That would make the whole thing completely intractable.

[discovery1]

Hmmm....

He's probably very busy with finals, like I should be.

[Flavius Clemens]

I think if there's one fact that has come out of the Chapter House as a whole it's that running an Interactive History is a huge amount of effort and takes a lot of attention. So all respect to Kraxis, and if he needs a break for a while, so be it however keen we are to go on. I'm sure we'd all rather see this go on at a sustainable pace than wear him out.

[AntiochusIII]

Hmmm....

He's probably very busy with finals, like I should be.The problem is: Kraxis, I believe, is Danish and is an adult beyond college as far as I've heard.

Nonetheless, while you should be concerned with Finals I should be concerned with a ten pages story which is due tomorrow and I did not even start. That, of course, does not take into account seven other classes and an interview with a book author Thursday.

But really, who cares. :2thumbsup: Interactive History is way more fun.

[Franconicus]

[QUOTE=AntiochusIII]The problem is: Kraxis, I believe, is Danish and is an adult beyond college as far as I've heard.
[QUOTE]
Maybe it is fishing season in Denmark :dizzy2:
Hope he did not hit one of our mines :shame:

By the way: do you remember that Alfred Hitchcock always played a small and unimportant role in his movies.
I am still wondering about that Danish officer, who visited our ship. Maybe Kraxis has the same spleen as Hitchcock?

[Peasant Phill]

Kraxis hasn't been on the .org since the 5th of may. I hope nothing happened to him or someone near him.

[Franconicus]

I see that nothing is going on here. I hope this does not mean that the story is stopped for ever. So I will try to use the time for a new idea.

I think we agreed to attack some Channel harbors. Well, the problem is to get there and get back before the RN reacts. A big naval battle is not our goal. So the main issue is: How can we slow down the reaction of the Brits?

During my holidays I heard the story of a German commander. When WW1 started he was at a harbor at southern Italy. The Italians demanded him to leave and the Admirality ordered him to sail to an Austrian harbor. However, he decided not to do it. He had other plans. He wanted to reach Turkey and pull them into war.

His problem was that he had to cross the Eastern Med, that was controlled by a superior British fleet. Anyway, he set sail. His idea was to interupt the British communication. He sented radio messages all the time on the British frequency. It seemed to work. The Brits could not coordinate their efforts and he made it!

So here is my proposal for operation Morse Fire:

I guess the Brits will have some small spy ships at the Bay. Lets send our cruisers and let them sail north along the Danish coast. At night they will turn and meet our big ships that left our harbor aduring night too. As soon as our big ships get out, all our broadcast stations at the coast (all along the coasts of Germany. Netherlands and Belgium) will start to send signals on the RN frequency. Maybe we can send some Zeps to the sea, where they can send too.

So the British admirals will first get the info that our cruisers march northwards, then they do not get any news at all, just noise. Propably they will send out their zeps to look for the cruisers. They will look at the Danish coast, but will not find anything. When they return the admirals should have a first information of a German attack at the coastal cities. I guess they will allert the Home Fleet and send out the zeps for recon once more. These will surely find us but cannot send a message back home. So they have to return to England to give the news to the admirals.

I bet we could make it home before the Brits really know what is going on.

What do you think?

[Rodion Romanovich]

That's a very good idea!

[Peasant Phill]

Interesting, even more so as it worked in real life. Did the (real) ship spam the British frequency all on its own?

It is of great importance that we don't cause the Brits to send their home fleet out to early. So we should be careful not to alert the RN that we're up to something, at least not until it's to late.

[King Kurt]

It is of great importance that we don't cause the Brits to send their home fleet out to early. So we should be careful not to alert the RN that we're up to something, at least not until it's to late.
Perhaps the way to do this is to do it several times in association with something else - like a sweep towards the danish coast with some light forces - then when we go for the big raid, they may be decieved into thinking it is another Danish sweep - especially if we dummy that way with a few light cruisers.

[Kagemusha]

I like Francs idea too.It sounds like a good innovative tactics.Exactly what the Doctor ordered to us.~;)

[Flavius Clemens]

Only danger I can see is that once we've used it on them, they can use it on us. But with luck it will be too late by then.

[Ludens]

It sounds like a good plan. However, it is going to be a lot harder to hide fleet than it is to hide a single ship. The British have to send only one blimp to the Dutch coast (and they know we intented to strike their coastline) and the game's up. I am all for deception, but we must be sure that the British won't looking were we are going. Also, they may guess something is up when nothing happens along the Danish coast, especially if we start jamming their radio.

[Kraxis]

The problem is: Kraxis, I believe, is Danish and is an adult beyond college as far as I've heard.
Not at all... I'm 26 and I'm still studying History (great wonder eh?).
I shoul haev been getting ready for exams, but something prevented the exams in their entirety (part of the reason for my absence).

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Sweet, I get to be the first to welcome you back twice!

Welcome back! I hope your exams are now out of the way and that everything else is well.

[Kraxis]

Heh... They have been out of the way since... well they have never been there it seems. I just didn't know that, in fact I thought I was going to do other exams because they were connected to my courses.

What I'm saying is that I was sent to the wrong courses which in turn didn't allow me to go to exam in those I could actually use, and the courses I had taken would not grant me anything (really nothing!).

But besides that I and everybody I know are fine.

[discovery1]

My sympathies Kraxis. Not as bad as I feared, but still pretty bad. Does this mean that you have basically done nothing toward your degree this semister?

On the Duel:

Is the raid still on? If it is, it might be a good idea to simply leave them there and order them to surrender when the British Army shows up. That way we don't have to loiter around waiting for them to get done recking havoc.

[AntiochusIII]

He's back! Whoa.

Hello. ~:wave:

Bad news about the college mistake. That must've been quite a terrible waste of time.

[Kraxis]

Nothing has changed with the story... In fact I have had time, as you can guess, to think up a little twist, though it has to some extent been mentioned here (not as an option though).

Yup, I lost the semester in it's entirety. Frustrating business...

[Peasant Phill]

Glad your back.

That semester lost really sucks. Isn't there anything you can do about it? Some commission or board that deals with such problems?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Ah, that really sucks.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Let's play battleships :2thumbsup:

[King Kurt]

Kraxis - can I add to the welcome and the commiserations.

My suggestions for college - just bind a couple of interactives and submit them - the quality of those is top notch and worthy of a degree at least!!

Welcome back - quite a few of your friends on these boards were worried about you.:2thumbsup:

[Peasant Phill]

Kraxis, I don't want to press you in any way but we (meaning others and I just went along for the ride) were planning a very important offensive action for months now and I would love to see it happening.

[Kraxis]

Today is the day... I have finally been able to find the time to continue this.

[AntiochusIII]

Let me predict: the brave offensive will be the last blazing glory of the Kaiserliche Marine as it goes down into the storms of grey and a heaven of fire, and the end of Germany at it, so that the great expanse of the North Sea would forever remains a grave testament to the folly of the Admirals of the Fatherland. :grin:

[Franconicus]

Today is the day... I have finally been able to find the time to continue this.
:jumping: :flowers: :elephant: :cheerleader: :cheerleader: :dancing: :bounce: :knuddel:

[AggonyDuck]

Wooohhoooo! Time to take down some British battleships. :2thumbsup:

[King Kurt]

Time to start argueing about mines, planes, Calais etc, etc,etc again - spot on.

Is there some form of punishment for franc for excessive use of smilies?????

Kraxis - welcome back - I trust you have resolved your college problems OK - are you going to recap or are you going to dive right in??:2thumbsup:

[Franconicus]

Is there some form of punishment for franc for excessive use of smilies?????
:eeeek:
:shame:
I aplogize. However, sometimes a smily says more than thousand words.

[King Kurt]

:eeeek:
:shame:
I aplogize. However, sometimes a smily says more than thousand words.

Franc

Apology :balloon2: :dizzy2: :help: :idea2: :inquisitive: :oops::wall: :sweatdrop: :2thumbsup: accepted!!

:shame:

[Kraxis]

New Developments

The tired crews of the three battlecruisers clean down their ships as you and the staffofficers leave Derfflinger, or Derfi as the enlisted call her. It seems the mere fact that they are back home in port have cooled them down, but their emotions and bodies have been stressed to the limit.
As you walk back to your office you decide they must be rewarded. Your Chief of Staff, Kommodore von Stossburg, a man that has been little more than a secretary and handyman for you, suddenly speaks up with his eyes almost dreamingly looking ahead.
"Herr Admiral, I think these ships deserve the Iron Cross."
You sigh, fatigue keeps your thoughts wild and uncoordinated. "Yes, I think that is a good idea you have there. Kaiser Wilhelm would love a little public spectacle with his 'private' navy, and more to the point, these men and ships have fought like lions, doing a lot of damage to the British.
I just wonder how long it will take to happen... It seems fate might remove the ships before they can get the honour."
Von Stossburg turns his head and smiles. "I have already done the preliminary work. You only need to send the official commendation, and I think it could be carried the day after tomorrow, no later than the 22nd."
You almost drop your jaw. The elderly kommodore has always been a sticker for protocol, and if not lazy then at least without initiative. You quickly compose yourself and smile broadly to the man.
"Thank you... Gerhard." You use his first name to emphasize how much you appreciate his sudden use of initiative. "I will send it off right away when I get to the office." Von Stossburg simply responds with a small smile and a nod, silent again.

At the office you quickly write up the commendations for the three battlecruisers, Derfflinger, Seydlitz and Von der Tann, and after you finish them you squint your eyes a bit, watching the three ships at their moorings across the harbour. It won't help right away, something needs to be done her and now to get them eased off. You nod to yourself. You haev only a few options. You can send them home for a week, but you fear that might not be too good, especially if their services might be required before the leave is up. The other option is to let them haev a more free run of Wilhelmshaven city for a while, and giving them good rations, perhaps even a great common dinner for all ranks. You don't think that is enough, but at least they are close to their ships should they be needed.
You ponder this for a few minutes but in the end the neccesity of keeping the capable ships ready force you to let them have the lesser of the two options. They will stay in Wilhelmshaven.

Feeling the night coming on heavily you shake your head, you have to look at the damaged ships and the building of new ones.
Both Magdeburg and Leipzig are days from completion, and then you will have five of the powerful light cruisers. Their eight 150mm guns are significantly superior to the five 6in guns most modern British light cruisers have, and in a class of their own when compared to the 5.5in and 4in guns the older British cruisers are armed with.
After them the Rostock should be finished within a few weeks, while the Frauenlob is at least a month away, the last three units with temporary names are even longer in the working, but work is progressing quite well.
The damages to Baden are slight, and you wonder why it shouldn't just have the holes patched up and get a new bridge instead of all this buzzing over her.
You get the dockmaster on watch on the phone and tell him to give priority to Baden, Bayern and Hindenburg. You don't know why, but you feel that these ships will become important very soon. Besides they are the strongest while also some of the least damaged.

Finally you can go to sleep, you don't even know what time it is, only that it is late, and once more you have to fight the demons of your own mind and memory. Despite doing their best to keep you awake you quickly slip into the warming embrace of deep and satisfying sleep.

You have barely closed your eyes before you are awoken by your servant, and you lash out at him. "Verdammt! I have just laid myself down to sleep!"
The poor young boy takes a few steps back. "Sorry Herr Admiral, but it is 9 in the morning. You have told me to always check up on you at this time so you don't oversleep."
9 in the morning... You realize that you have indeed been sleeping for many hours.
"Yes... I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had in fact been sleeping for a good while. Well, get me some breakfast will you."
You get up from your office cot and wash yourself with the water from the pan the boy had left, then you put on your uniform, freshly cleaned and pressed.

You walk out into the harbour itself, pleased to hear a lot more work being done from the direction of Bayern and Baden. As you inhale the fresh air sharply you hear a muffled explosion from the direction of the open sea. You look out towards the thin waterway leading to sea, just like everybody else in the port. Then you march back with haste to your office, and as you enter the building you hear another muffled explosion. This time you run.
You grab the phone and call the portmaster, who promptly informs you that a small convoy of five merchants and three torpedoboats were sceduled to arrive this morning, their cargo a mix of food from Poland and explosives from Silecia.
Explosives... Oh no... You barely finish the throught before a larger less muffled explosion rip through the air, and this time you can even see a massive fireball rising in the distance.

The convoy was almost entirely wrecked, only a single ship was still afloat when larger ships arrived to help. That last ship was however blinking warnings to keep others way. Apparently it believed it had hit a minefield. But since no known minefields were supposed to at the mouth of bay a single tug moved in, unfortunately there was indeed a minefield and the tug got blown in half.
In time the merchant was rescued along with any survivors that the little attackboats could pick up since they were without risk of hitting mines.

As you look on the merchant being brought in you know that it carries food and not the vital explosives. This ends any notion of using a big bombship. Ironic that it did indeed end up blowing up a ship and sinking several others. Since you can do little to help with the direct efforts, you thrown yourself at the reason, a minefield.
It doesn't take long for you and your staff to find that the garrison on Heligoland had noticed quite a few zeppeliner engines in the night, but since that was a common event they thought nothing of it. Along with all the other pieces of info, you conclude that the British have used their few airships to mine the port.
This is good news, as it means the British minelayers haven't been able to penetrate the inner Bight and sneak out again, also the airships could hardly carry many mines and as such the minefield must be very small, 30-50, but obviously placed very well. The minesweepers should be able to clean it up in a few hours.

Funny that the British have thought up much the same idea you have, only they got to you first. You send the other to the zeppeliners to mine Hartlepool, Dover and Rosyth, about 120 mines at each place.
Meanwhile you get to the job of finishing the plannings of the landing in England. Oberst von Brackenau is however quite sullen that his 'grand' plan was not chosen, but still he is a Prussian and a professional, and he shall certainly lead the regiment that you plan on landing in Kent.
The limited intel you have, indicates that only a few training units are within range to harass the landing forces. If you are lucky they will just have gotten a new batch of recruits and as such essentially unable to fight a strong and welltrained regiment.
The landingforces' infantry, including 700 cavalrymen, will be loaded onto the former commerce raider Vineta and the famous and heroic Wolf II, while the horses will be stocked onto two coilers and the equipment onto two more merchants.
The escort will be provided by Kaiser class battleships. Since Grosser Kurfürst has been repaired enough to sail, if not fight at 100%, she will join her sisters, Friedrich der Grosse, Kaiserin and König Albert. Along with them all three Cöln class light cruisers, along with another four, of which two are from the outdated secondary forces, as well as 13 torpedoboats. You would have loved to send a couple battlecruisers with the force, to scout and intercept, but in their current state you wouldn't dare it.
You estimate that within four days the force should be ready to leave since much of the preliminary work has already been done.
You opt to call the landing Operation Klapperschlange (Rattlesnake).

The 20th pass with little event as you and your staff push for the repairs to be finished as well as scounge for sailors to get your depleted fleet up to strength. You leave organizing the strike to the recently promoted Kommodore Loesch of the Kaiser.
But it appears the British are determined to harass you, as today another torpdoboat struck a mine, this time outside Cuxhaven. It did, however, not sink, but was severely damaged.
Interestingly several of the secondary forces are already ready for operations. Their commanders claim to have expected such an order and have kept their ships in fighting condition, if not ready directly.
Also you get a message from the Admiralty that your commendations have been accepted and that the Kaiser himself will arrive tomorrow to issue the Iron Crosses to the ships. And this time he doesn't want any pomp, just a clean pier and an honour guard. This you quickly order, but you also a small stand for him to deliver a speech to the three ships' compliments. Of course the sailors will not be allowed to go out drinking on this night, but you suspect that they don't mind now that they will get the Iron Cross, the supreme wartime decoration of Germany at this time (though the Pour le Merite is in fact harder to get, it can't get gotten collectively).

Your trust in the sailors' vanity is wellfounded and the night is silent, at least among the crew of the three battlecruisers. And when morning breaks the pier at which they are ties is ready to recieve Kaiser Wilhelm. It is clean, there is no traffic to and fro, and the infantry of Oberst von Brackenau, royal troops themselves, are lined up ready to recieve the sovereign.
Suddenly, and in fact five minutes early the train arrives. Instead of the Kaiser using hown own train as usual, a royal cart has just been added to the regular freighttrain, and a he leaves the cart he is the only one who doesn't look for the usual motorcar waiting, instead he heads right for you.
You come to attention and salute the Kaiser. He answers by bringing his walkingstick up to the brow of his white admiral's cap and smiles.
"Herr Admiral, I'm so pleased to meet you again. What you have done is impressive, there might be a Pour le Merite in this for you."
"Thank you, sovereign." The comment at his 'power' makes the Kaiser straighten up a bit more and glow like a little star. "But I would prefer victory to a medal."
"Don't we all... Admiral, when will you land troops?"
"Soon. Oh, we are here now." You step back and thus avoid the question forming on his lips. With a great questionmark over his head, the Kaiser steps up the little stand and looks over the three ships' crews.
His voice booming out over the pier. "Men, most able sailors, You have time and again proved what German steel can do. The perfidious Brits fear You, especially my timid cousin." That last comment brought laughter from the crowd. "YOU are what the Royal Navy trembles at. They will do everything they can to destroy You, but I know that You won't allow that." Wilhelm then stops and turns to an aide, takes three small boxes. "This is but a small token of Our gratitude, of Germany's gratitude, for Your service.
It is my pleasure to give You all, the Iron Cross. You have deserved it!" Then the Kaiser opens the three boxes, each containing a single Iron Cross. From behind him the three captains walk up to him and recieve the medals on behalf of their crews, each shaking hands with him. The entire host of sailors coming to attention and saluting, and the Kaiser leaving after acknowledging the salute has the short ceremony come to an end.

You walk the Kaiser back to the train waiting for him, and he continues to profess his greatest trust in you. In fact you get the feeling that he might be trying to find allies here. You quickly deflect him, as you can't afford to get on the bad side of the powerful generals. He seems a little deflated at that, but as he enter the train he shakes you hand once more and smiles.
You watch the train roll out, then you return to your office while workers remove the stand and the sailors return to their barracks, bouyant and happy, clearly satisfied with the new commendation. In a few days they will recieve their own personal Iron Cross. Sadly Germany has been stocking up on them, for a lot are issued poshumous...

In the afternoon a report lies waiting for you, it tells the story of how far and how much the offensive has manage to capture so far. The figures are impressive, especially compared to previous offensives, especially the Allied attacks for the last four years. You begin to wonder if your actions are even needed.
As if responding to that thought you get a call from the Admiralty, and they go right for the juicy stuff.
"The generals ask when the supposed naval help is coming."
"Excuse me? I have sent no promisses for assistance. In fact I have hardly known what was about to happen." That was strictly not true as Kaiser Wilhelm let you in on it, but they don't need to know that.
"Of little point. They have requested help, and you will provide it." And that was that, now you would be sailing for the generals, as everybody else.
"Of course, we are after all fighting for Germany."
"Indeed. So have you got any plans?"
"Well, I have been planning a landing in Kent with a single regiment, a no-return attack."
"That is hardly what they have thought was helpful."
"So what? I can't just conjure up a magic fleet." You are getting just a little annoyed.
"Calm down, we know your limitations. Use your current plan to harass the Tommies, but you will also have to plan an attack that can disrupt their fightingeffort on the front."
"You are asking a lot for no time really. My forces have suffered horrendous losses, you know that, I sent you the lists."
Clearly getting angry, the Admiral at the other end responds "And how many do you think the Army loses each day? Today alone they have lost more than you have lost since taking over! A single verdammt day! Do your job and help the Army. NOW! The army can't keep on doing this, if you attack too late it will have spent it's bolt and can't take advantage of your disruption." Then he hangs up.
So now you are forced to do something you have long feared you must do, attack the Channel. To buy time you order the strike at Kent to be launched this very evening. Essentially the force is ready.
Given your lack of involvement and current fatigue, you give Kommodore Loesch the command of the force.
A few hours before the sun sets the little fleet sails out, begins maneuvers of refueling alongside the coilers and transports, then the warships go through wartime maneuvers until the sun sets. During the darkness the fleet slips out through a gap made all the way down towards Holland. Slinking along the Dutch coast at night is dangerous, but it is secure from prowling eyes.
During the daylight maneuvers, some messages were intercepted, weak and short, they seem to be contactreports, and their coding is clearly British. Since German codebreakers haven't managed to break their codes you can't know what the reports say, but you are certain that it involves the fleet. To keep up appearances you order the Naussaus and Thüringen to sail out and do maneuvers and gunnerypractice. Hopefully that will convince the British that you are only ranging the ships through maneuvers.

What will you do now?

1) Infantry
A: Quickly load the rest of the infantry up on merchants and transports.
B: Likewise but on the warships.
C: Slowly and deleberately prepared for landings with the remaining infantry.
D: Preparing for the infantry takes time, send them to the front.

2) Pre-Dreadnoughts
A: Plan for them to Bombard Dunkerque, the nearest but most defended port, at least concerning ships. Believed that two French Pre-Dreadnoughts are stationed there along with destroyers.
B: Bombard Calais, the secondclosest with the most formidable landdefences.
C: Bombard Bolougne, the farthest and weakest port of the three.
D: Try to hit all the places.
E: In case you want to use the Pre-Dreadnoughts as blockships, just add this option, but it will weaken the bombardment quite a lot (the crew will not be full).

3) The Betruger
A: Use her to lure out the French from Dunkerque. Since they are French and she supposedly British some confusion is to be expected, and thus the normal security might not check her as hard. Then on the way out she and her consorts will torpedo the French ships.
B: Have her and four torpedoboats sneak into Bolougne and go nuts with guns and torpedoes before scuttling the Betruger in the entrance.
C: Load her up with explosives in the nose, then have her attack Calais' most vital area, the big storehouses. Her consorts will support her on the way in, then try to extract her crew on the way out.

4) Landings, only if 1D isn't chosen.
A: Rush the troops to Dunkerque, where they will land after the ships have given a heavy if fairly short bombardment.
B: Use the infantry to attack the forts guarding Calais prior to attacking the port itself.
C: Since Bolougne is relatively weakly defended, and the least likely to be a place where Allied troops are unloaded, the infantry could just end up being able to take the port themselves.

5) The Fleet, it will support the other as need be, and in case a port is left out by the other options the fleet will bombard that one without support.
A: Attack as soon as you can (meaning until the strikefleet has returned).
B: Wait until the three important ships are repaired.
C: Slow and deliberate preperation will be best.
D: Use the battleships to draw the British away from France, while the battlecruisers support the Pre-Dreadnoughts. Good chances of heavy casualties as your forces can be destroyed in detail.

Remember that this is only the planning, the attack will not happen right away as the Kent-strike needs to happen first.

[Kraxis]

Bloody hell... I'm tired... I began right after I wrote the last post. This takes time.:coffeenews:

[Kagemusha]

Great the story continues!:2thumbsup: Great to have you back Kraxis!:bow: I hope you have had a great summer.~:cheers:

Ok.So its time for our Amok Run to the channel.:oops: I think if we have to do this,i support attacking Calais all out.:knight: Options:

About infantry i think we should land them to support the Calais offensive.
1) Infantry
C: Slowly and deleberately prepared for landings with the remaining infantry.


2) Pre-Dreadnoughts
A: Plan for them to Bombard Dunkerque, the nearest but most defended port, at least concerning ships. Believed that two French Pre-Dreadnoughts are stationed there along with destroyers.

Lets use Pre-Dreadnoughts as smoke screen and attack with them on Dunkerque while the main body of our forces attacks Calais.

3) The Betruger
C: Load her up with explosives in the nose, then have her attack Calais' most vital area, the big storehouses. Her consorts will support her on the way in, then try to extract her crew on the way out.

The suprise element is everything if we are to wreck Calais.

4) Landings, only if 1D isn't chosen.
B: Use the infantry to attack the forts guarding Calais prior to attacking the port itself.


5) The Fleet, it will support the other as need be, and in case a port is left out by the other options the fleet will bombard that one without support.

B: Wait until the three important ships are repaired.

[Rodion Romanovich]

This is wonderful news indeed! The duel continues! :jumping:

1) Infantry
C: Slowly and deleberately prepared for landings with the remaining infantry.
...mini raids are just risks of losing ships with limited gains IMO. No more mini-raids now, concentrate on the main raid.

2) Pre-Dreadnoughts
D: Try to hit all the places.
...but I think we should have a schedule of priorities, use radio communication to decide exact plan when getting close to Dunquerque, judging from intel on British warship locations and strengths. Priority could be: 1. all, 2. Calais only, 3. successfully land troops in Boulogne and hurt Dunquerque, 4. anything else that damages any of the ports.

3) The Betruger
C: Load her up with explosives in the nose, then have her attack Calais' most vital area, the big storehouses. Her consorts will support her on the way in, then try to extract her crew on the way out.
...seems like the greatest chance of successfully destroying Calais. Actually, one interesting idea would be to first send a huge fleet towards the channel, then as British ships come south for us (zeppeliners will provide info when larger fleet formations leave Scapa flow), the main fleet could just turn around in a very visible manouvre outside East Anglia, while the Betruger, which breaks off from the fleet much earlier, continues alone. While the main fleet then returns, Betruger sneaks into Calais and carries out plan no. C. The weak point of that plan is that it would demand a lot of the crew, which might not be happy about the idea.

4) Landings, only if 1D isn't chosen.
C: ideally we should try to capture Boulogne with the infantry, but that might not be possible. I'd prefer deciding that when approaching Dunquerque, having 3 different plans made for the infantry commanders - one for each port, then choosing the most appropriate depending on the situation. If we can't land them in Boulogne, attacking Calais or Dunquerque will still have an impact, so I think that's the best idea, rather than just going home if we find that Boulogne is impossible to reach when the time actually comes.

5) The Fleet, it will support the other as need be, and in case a port is left out by the other options the fleet will bombard that one without support.
B: Wait until the three important ships are repaired.
...and even then, depending on the situation then, it might be necessary to wait even longer before the main operation, while carrying out a few other operations in support of and preparation for the main operation.

[AggonyDuck]

For this to have any big effect we need to cripple all three major ports, concentrating on just one or two won't work. All three need to be crippled to stop the flow of supplies.

I'm suggest using the Pre-Dreadnoughts for bombarding Dunkerque, the Fleet against Calais, using the Betruger and landing the infantry in Boulogne. This way we should be able to destroy all the channel ports for a couple of weeks atleast.

1) Infantry
C: Slowly and deleberately prepared for landings with the remaining infantry. (how long will this take? We don't have an eternity to prepare.)


2) Pre-Dreadnoughts

A: Plan for them to Bombard Dunkerque, the nearest but most defended port, at least concerning ships. Believed that two French Pre-Dreadnoughts are stationed there along with destroyers.

and E: Use three of the pre-dreadnoughts as blockships.


3) The Betruger

B: Have her and four torpedoboats sneak into Bolougne and go nuts with guns and torpedoes before scuttling the Betruger in the entrance. (C is a good option too though)

4) Landings, only if 1D isn't chosen.

C: Since Bolougne is relatively weakly defended, and the least likely to be a place where Allied troops are unloaded, the infantry could just end up being able to take the port themselves.

5) The Fleet, it will support the other as need be, and in case a port is left out by the other options the fleet will bombard that one without support. I say the fleet concentrates on bombarding Calais.

B: Wait until the three important ships are repaired.
I want the battlecruisers back before we strike atleast.

EDIT: Aerial reconaissance of the British East Coast and Channel ports is propably required to see what kind of enemy forces are able to intercept our forces in the channel.

[discovery1]

1) Infantry
C: Slowly and deleberately prepared for landings with the remaining infantry.
Don't want to risk failure with sloppy preperation, and them landing and taking out a port for even a day would probably do more good then sending them to the front

2) Pre-Dreadnoughts
A. Close so they don't have to worry about sprinting, plus the defenses shouldn't pose much of a problem. About ten Siegfrieds would be sent abounts Dunquerk yes?


3) The Betruger
C Blow up the warehouses.



4) Landings, only if 1D isn't chosen.
C. Weak target so the inf has the best chance of landing. It is a bit far though so I suspect they will be vulnerable in transit, although for mos


5)
B: Wait until the three important ships are repaired.
Don't want to rush, nor wait, nor run all over and die.


What do we know about the size and/or traffic of the ports at each location?

Smashing update Kraxis. Pity about the bombship, although maybe we will capture a ready made one. What are you doing about your academic difficulties?

[Franconicus]

1) Infantry

C: Slowly and deleberately prepared for landings with the remaining infantry.


2) Pre-Dreadnoughts
D: Try to hit all the places.
E: In case you want to use the Pre-Dreadnoughts as blockships, just add this option, but it will weaken the bombardment quite a lot (the crew will not be full).

3) The Betruger
C: Load her up with explosives in the nose, then have her attack Calais' most vital area, the big storehouses. Her consorts will support her on the way in, then try to extract her crew on the way out.

4) Landings, only if 1D isn't chosen.
C: Since Bolougne is relatively weakly defended, and the least likely to be a place where Allied troops are unloaded, the infantry could just end up being able to take the port themselves.
Boulogne is best. The army already broke through, there is a lot of confusion among the French. Now there is an amphibious operation in their rear - this will create chaos and decrease the moral.

5) The Fleet, it will support the other as need be, and in case a port is left out by the other options the fleet will bombard that one without support.

B: Wait until the three important ships are repaired.[/QUOTE]

Kraxis, great that you are back. You still know how to do it! What about our proposal, esp. the measures to camouflage our operations?

[AntiochusIII]

1) Infantry
C: Slowly and deleberately prepared for landings with the remaining infantry.

The Royal Navy's hungry for blood. Send the infantry piecemeal and they will be annihilated one by one. Extensive scouting campaigns and preparations will be needed.

2) Pre-Dreadnoughts
A: Plan for them to Bombard Dunkerque, the nearest but most defended port, at least concerning ships. Believed that two French Pre-Dreadnoughts are stationed there along with destroyers.

They are among the slowest of the ships, I assume? Since this entire operation depends on the swiftness of the execution as much as anything else, we can't let the old ships slow the fleet down. Dunkerque is closest, and their firepower will be put to good use tearing this city apart.

3) The Betruger
C: Load her up with explosives in the nose, then have her attack Calais' most vital area, the big storehouses. Her consorts will support her on the way in, then try to extract her crew on the way out.

It's probably our only real hope for a swift destruction of Calais, the Allies' principal port. I suspect it will be well-guarded, and will need the surprise to succeed.

There is great risk in this operation, including the British seeing through the cover. But it's worth the risk.

4) Landings, only if 1D isn't chosen.
C: Since Bolougne is relatively weakly defended, and the least likely to be a place where Allied troops are unloaded, the infantry could just end up being able to take the port themselves.

We can affect the Western Front the most if an entirely new front is open from behind. Besides, the balance of force should be well-organized lest one of the ports remain intact. Should Bolougne falls, and Calais and Dunkerque wrecked for but a few crucial weeks, France will fall as well.

5) The Fleet, it will support the other as need be, and in case a port is left out by the other options the fleet will bombard that one without support.
B: Wait until the three important ships are repaired.

Neither a rush-job nor a late operation is desired. The firepower of the battlecruisers, and their veteran crews, will be crucial to victory. I'd like to have all the ships I could, but waiting forever is not an option; not when the offensive has begun.

A longer wait might be necessary, though, if the Kent raid turns sour.

[Kraxis]

The British learned from the Goeben incident. They now use several frequencies for their wireless. You can't just jam the frequency anymore. Besides, your situation is very much different from that of the Goeben. It was known to be breaking out, so the British were more or less ready (less in this case). You on the other hand are not known to be breaking out, so if you rush out and try to jam all the frequencies the British will know something very very important is under way, and then you can't hide either (triangulation, remember).

Trying to jam should be more or less the last option, in which case it could actually help confuse the British, but initially it would more likely hurt your cause.

[AggonyDuck]

Which of our pre-dreadnoughts are we taking with us?

[Kraxis]

Any and all of the 8 ships that get ready in time...

They are of the Braunschweig and Deutchland classes, the two most modern classes, if you can call Pre-Dreadnought modern.
Since three of the ships have until now been barracks- or depotships, they might not make it in time as considerable amounts of equipment needs to be replaced.

Of course these three a still able to fire and sail, and would logically be the best for use as blockships. Though all of them are expendable.

This is how they look. And I must admit I really like this picture.
https://img486.imageshack.us/img486/6109/hessenak3.th.jpg (https://img486.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hessenak3.jpg)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

1)c

2)a

3)c

4)c

5)b

[AggonyDuck]

Hmmmmm, then I think we might be better off using those three pre-dreadnoughts as blockships. So I'm changing my vote to also use them as blockships.

[Kommodus]

With our relatively limited resources, I think we should pick one target and hit it hard. I choose Calais.

1. A

I hate to rush things, but the infantry are needed quickly. I'd rather not have them on warships, which should focus on fighting and not landing troops.

2. B

I consider stationary land defenses somewhat less dangerous than mobile ships. If the infantry can take the forts at Calais, the pre-dreadnoughts should have a reasonable chance when it comes to attacking it.

3. C

Going along with the plan to hit Calais hard, we may as well hit the big storehouses with the Betruger.

4. B

This relates to my choice if 2(B); the whole plan will go much smoother if the infantry can take the forts.

5. B

The admiral is right - we can't wait too long to help the army, but we aren't quite ready yet (and that's putting it mildly).

[Flavius Clemens]

Good to have the fun back Kraxis.

1)
My inclination is to go for C as amphibious landings are not a trivial thing to attempt for the soldiers, so plenty of planning and drilling is necessary. However, there is clearly pressure for quick action, and if we delay too long we may find we are overcome by politics and the generals press the Admiralty to remove us from command. So, just to be sure - how long is 'slowly and deliberately' expected to take?

2) A
Given their relatively slow speed and the need for surprise best to use them on the closest target. Also as the RN clearly have good intel even if the home fleet is in Scapa our forces may face interception by subs or destroyers, which the older ships will be most vulnerable against. If we have most of the 8 available on the day then include a couple in option E.

3) B
Given the distance a small destroyer force has the best chance of reaching Bolougne with surprise.

4) B
Land based guns can be a threat to our attacking fleet, best to do whatever we can to neutralise them and maximise the impact of our bombardment.

5) B I think
(Same caveat as 1 - need to balance this against how things are going for the army so we aren't perceived to be dragging our feet too long. I guess The Kaiser can only keep them off our backs for so long)

Also need to keep up anything we can to confuse the RN on our real intentions. Perhaps we can be overheard requesting weather reports and coastal reconnaisance from U boats near Britain to give the impression that we're planning a second larger landing after the Kent attacks (not that there need to be any U boats there to reply of course if they're really needed elsewhere)

[Kraxis]

Since the troops go in without any heavy weapons whatsoever, it shouldn't take more than 3-5 days.

The fast options meant piling the troops onboard as soon as the strikeforce came back (and in the case of the BB option they would meet up with the strikeforce warships out at sea instead) and then head out right away. Meaning the attack could go off 'tomorrow'.

I might be able to compile a collection of ruses you can select from. But then it will be more classical Interactive History, in that one will be good, one will be bad and one or two so-so. If you pick the bad one I will downright have the British admiral see through you, the so-so will have me leave them a few subtle pointers (I hope I can replicate real intelligencereports in that one). I would of course try to see if I could make it possible to figure out which were good and bad (of course not easy).

[Flavius Clemens]

OK, I'll firm up on 1 C and 5 B.

[AggonyDuck]

I might be able to compile a collection of ruses you can select from. But then it will be more classical Interactive History, in that one will be good, one will be bad and one or two so-so. If you pick the bad one I will downright have the British admiral see through you, the so-so will have me leave them a few subtle pointers (I hope I can replicate real intelligencereports in that one). I would of course try to see if I could make it possible to figure out which were good and bad (of course not easy).

I think in this situation ruses will only hurt us. The Brits know where we will hit, they just do not know when we'll do it. Any attempt at a ruse will propably just alert the Brits that we're going to strike now or relatively soon.

To a degree I think the best solution is to try to give as little information as possible to the British prior and during the initiation of the raid. Simple things like departuring at night and radio silence tend to go a long way in keeping things secret.

Kraxis, in what kind of weather conditions do you think we can launch our operation?

[Kraxis]

I think in this situation ruses will only hurt us. The Brits know where we will hit, they just do not know when we'll do it. Any attempt at a ruse will propably just alert the Brits that we're going to strike now or relatively soon.

To a degree I think the best solution is to try to give as little information as possible to the British prior and during the initiation of the raid. Simple things like departuring at night and radio silence tend to go a long way in keeping things secret.

Kraxis, in what kind of weather conditions do you think we can launch our operation?
Pretty much what I thought. Ruses are quite tough in stories like this. For you, the players, need options to see through a ruse (it would be unfair to let either team just pour out false info and run rampant), thus in effect the ruse is in most cases already wasted... Hence my only real option would be to make it an arbitrary option, no direct involvement from the other team.

Basically you can launch the operation in any kind of weather. In fact it would serve you to have very bad weather, as it would make the fleet basically invisible if it is simply silent. Though it would be tough on the infantry. But then again, their landings would be quite hard to spot as well.

We are in the late half of March, weather in the North Sea and the Channel can be pretty bad, but it also tends to change fast with the strong spring winds. So the weathermen have a hard time expecting anything.

[AggonyDuck]

What about the high and low tides then?

[Kraxis]

Forthe fleet that is of no real consequence, they will not sail through dangerous waters very much. They know better.
For the infantry it is interestingly not much of a deal either, as if they are met by any resistance of meaning while disembarking, they will get seriously mauled, high tide or not. Remember they will be landing in small wooden boats.

[discovery1]

Kraixs, can we get a weather report of the channel? Maybe even a forecast? Please?

[Kraxis]

U-boats have reported that bad weather might come up the channel into the North Sea, but that is conflicting with the more general north-western winds which propel the ever-present overcast to your ports.

The weather can become anything for all you know (though thunderstorms and heavy rain seem unlikely at the moment), but currently you have fairly good vision below the overcast. This is excellent for airrecon, and it leaves out the problems of facing the sun (which is both a benefit and a pain for you).

[discovery1]

Thanks Kraxis.

What do we know about ports? Specifically do we know where we can get all the ship's manifests quickly?

[Kraxis]

The Final Preperations

At first light on the 22nd the four outdated Drednoughts steam out onto the Bight where they go through numerous maneuver. Sadly their gunnerypractice is severely limited, and takes on a general training in faster reloading. Already the low stocks of ammunition is hurting you greatly.
And while the ships bumble about on the Bight, Operation Klapperschlange is underway. You have heard nothing from the task force so far, but that is only good. For while you are uncertain about British abilities in reading your coded messages, you are certain they would understand, through triangulation, that something was amiss and investigate. And while the forces is sufficiently protected by four capable battleships, it doesn't take much to ruin it all. That is why Wolf II retained her little floatplane Wölfchen, which you suppose is currently scouting ahead and to the sides for any notion of ships.
Now you just hope that the Dutch have remained silent too and not sent their own ships too far out, contact could spell disaster if they reported it in a wireless message.

In the hours before noon you begin to make the preperations for the infantry, as well as the fleet for the upcoming Operation Mamba, as you have opted to call it. You kind of like to make up names for operations, and that is your prerogative as the operational and organizational commander.
It quickly becomes clear that while all eight Pre-Dreadnoughts are capable of both sailing and shooting, they are not up for combat, and three of them have even suffered several structural changes for their convertion to depots and barracks. The best you can say about them is that they can all sail 18 knots for days, something the Nassau class battleships could have trouble with if it went on for too long (a problem of their overworked triple expansion engines). Currently four ships are ready, with one soonto be ready and the three oddies ready sail if not fight. Even at this strength they should be more than a match for the two elderly French Pre-Dreadnoughts stationed at Dunkerque, and as such you choose Dunkerque as their target. You work with great care and deliberation, not a single, even minute, detail is missed or done incorrectly. This is a vital operation and everything must be perfect for it to work. Besides, you don't plan on setting out until you have at least gotten Baden, Bayern and Hindenburg back into operational service.

As you work you listen for a short while on the radio, where the German Army's heroically valiant progress are bleeted out every second... non stop! "The heroes of *some place in France* are currently chasing the perfidious British towards *some other place in France*, inflicting huge losses on them! The German population rejoices at their supernatural strength, blah blah blah..." The incessant thrilled voice annoy you and you continue your work in silence. Clearly the propaganda people are working overtime, and here you thought they had been over the top with your own achievements, but now they have gone downright insane.
You turn to the Betruger, the little captured destroyer that has already successfully decieved the British at sea. It is clear to you that she has outlived her usefulness as a novelty, and likely won't decieve the British again. However, the French are not intimately part of the British plans and rosters of ships, and since the Betruger used to be a destroyer-leader it isn't unlikely that they will accept that her fellow ships are smaller. Also destroyer-leaders are much more likely to be known by the French, making deception a good possibility. Calais, being the largest and most used port of the three targets, is by far the best target for a deception. You also know that the poor ships making the sneakattack won't likely get back. And if that can't be helped, then better make a bonus out of it.
You order her crew to make room for several tons of explosives in the nose. She is to be sacrificed in an explosion that will hopefully set on fire, blow up, riddle the Calais warehourses. The large piers and port facilities make it impossible to actually sail into the warehouses, but getting close should be enough to cause serious damage.
You just don't feel right about stuffing the little ship with vital explosives. Currently the stores can almost outfit your regular ships fully, but the Pre-Drednoughts will not carry much, though bombarding ports don't really demand huge amounts of ammo. But when the three repaired ships return to duty there will be a significant lack of ammunition. The loss of the convoy from Poland has cost you more than the loss of two Kaisers it would seem.

But you will prevail against all odds... you hope.
Meanwhile you have decided that Boulogne is the best target for the infantry. Chances are they will arrive at night, giving the battleships time to get into position to bombard their targets. This time is also vital for the infantry as they can then land unseen some way up the coast at th little village by the name Ambleteuse, some 5 km to th north. Unfortunately large reefs makes it impossible to land closer without going past the port.

You quickly sketch up the plans and present them to your most senior officers present. The captains of the battlecruisers are uniformly overjoyed at this. The audacity and impossible odd appeal greatly to them. Kapitän zur See von Schlick of the Derfflinger manages to say it all in one sentence. "We are to support an impossible offensive, with a weakened fleet against an impossible enemy, by attacking three impossible targets on land? It's perfect!"
Obviously certain things are changed when the most visible faults come to light, such as the battlecruisers helping the Pre-Drednoughts reducing Dunkerque, or the allocation of rather significant amounts of AP ammo for the Pre-Dreadnoughts, and not least the rather stiff escort cordon of torpedoboats around the 'fat' ships.
In the end your little cousil agrees to the plan, generally liking it. Though they fear Calais might be a problem.

Soon again it is dark and the forces maneuvering in the Bight return with interesting info. Several crewmembers on Thüringen thought they saw a plane or something sitting on the water, observing the maneuvers, but the bad visibility in the hours around noon made the captain believe it was nothing. But later when crewmembers on Thüringen and Nassau both, noticed a little speck flying around, did the officers understand that a British plane was keeping an eye on them. And that can only mean one thing, the Furious is on station on the Bight.
This revelation is obviously not something you like a whole lot, but at least you feel somewhat secure in that Operation Klapperschlange managed to get underway without her noticing. But getting out during Operation Mamba could pose a problem if the fleet is supposed to arrive during night.

You ask your counsil for their advice. Once more the battlecruiser captains are in agreement, though the captain of Von der Tann, Kapitän zur See Mommsen is reluctant. Their plan is to send out two light cruisers on a northerly course, as if sneaking out to intercept a small convoy or some such. This should get Furious to follow and soon she would be outside her planes' range and the main fleet could sneak out. Mommsen, while agreeing it is a good choice is more direct. His option is a direct attack on Furious by Derfflinger or any other battlecruiser that suits you and two of the fastest light cruisers to deal with any escort, as well as perhaps chasing down Furious if that becomes neccesary.
Kapitän zur See Siemens of Grosser Kurfürst is however of a very different opinion. He doesn't see how either of the first two proposals gives much advantage as the British might in fact have other forces nearby that you don't know of, and if they aren't there they might send them as soon as they see you move out of the Bight. In short he doesn't want to risk forces in ruses or chases, so he proposes to simply sneak out as soon as it is dark enough for the British to not launch any more planes. These proposals leave you with something to think over and you tell them that you will not make up your mind just yet. For once you have the luxury of a little time.

Despite the day is barely past 9 in the evening, you almost collapse onto your cot in the office. Weeks of stress and overworking yourself is finally telling. Despite being a relatively fit man, you are middleaged and food have not been terribly great, even for an Admiral, as of late. The sweet darkness of sleep quickly roll over you.
Your sleep is undisturbed by past horrors, in fact it is undisturbed by anything, you simply sleep, not dreaming or moving. And when you are awoken in the morning at 7, you lie in the exact same position as you remember lying in at night. Despite sleeping ten hours you feel like you have not slept at all.
You have barely gotten into uniform when an aide raps the door. He delivers to you a report from Z-29, one of the zeppeliners on minelaying patrols this night. It is on the way home but has been spotted by a plane, that is now giving chase. The plane is rather slow and isn't catching up to the zeppeliner very fast, but eventually it will. The captain ofthe vessel ask for permission to engage the plane at the farthest range possible with his rear 77mm gun. You roll your eyes... Of course he is allowed to engage the plane, that was why the guns were installed in the first place. You send the aide back with that message.
You quickly freshen up a bit, before heading over to the wireless office yourself. There the messages are ticking in, most have nothing to do with you, but finally one come in from Z-29, at extreme range it has opened up with the rear gun, and the plane, shocked to see flak bursts in front of it, has broken off the chase.
For a while it attempts to chase the zeppeliner again, but a few pops from the gun makes it pull back, an finally it breaks off. The first encounter between a plane and a gun-zeppeliner has been an unqualified success.
Just minutes later a similar situation unfolds with V-19, and again the enemy planes retreats after a while.

You return to the office and look at the map, plotting in the two zeppeliners and their movements. To your surprise they appear to have been quite a distance to the north of the Bight, attempting to reach the Danish coast, then sneaking down to their base at Töndern. You have some good estimates of the range the planes Furious carries, and it is clear that they are further north and west than you had expected. That can only mean Furious herself is not stuck to the minefields, but instead she ranges about at a distance. You wonder if this is good or bad news, you can't seem to figure that out yet.
At a quater past noon another report makes the sweet taste of being right go sour in your mouth. Z-29 has landed at the base. Unfortunately the groundcrews are made aware of small cracks in the pointed girders at the rear bythe crew. The zeppeliner rigid body has mainly been made to take inside pressures, especially at the very ends, and have as such suffered from outside pressures. Clearly the gun-zeppeliners aren't strengthened enough yet, and this means that two vital zeppeliners are out until they can be repaired. But at least the guns saved two zeppeliners from untimely destruction, even if they damaged their structural integrity.

You have barely dropped the report when the phone rings. At once your heart jumps and you feel a twisting knot in your stomach. The phone doesn't ring unless something important is up.
As you answer, a friendly operator's voice ask who you are before responding "The Kaiser is at the other end. Be brief if possible..." You never get the chance to defend yourself with the fact that he has called you, before the royal voice booms.
"Herr Admiral?" Curtly you aknowledge the question. "Ah good... The operators sent me to General Ludendorff first... Let's just say he wasn't pleased by the prospect of a royal conversation. Silly people."
You know attempts at getting people to show their colours, and this is one. You make sure to stay neutral.
"I'm certain he under a great deal of pressure with the great offensive going on. I hear that it is being called Kaiserslacht by some?
The vain man at teh other end jumps at this.
"Yes, that should be the name. It is final, it is great and it is strong beyond all else, a fitting name indeed!"
"I fear it might become final in more than one way..."
"Hmmm... Well, that is not for now. The reason I have taken contact to you again is Operation Klapperschlange. Your forces will soon land in Kent, or perhaps they have already landed?" You grit your teeth, the Kaiser was only supposed to know the slightest about the operation. But then again you informed him about an operation only a few days ago, perhaps he is just bright enough to combine the info? In any case this might not be terribly good.
"I'm not going to discuss any specifics, I hope you understand liege. But what is it I can help with?"
"Of course... Ehm... I have knowledge that my cousin has a small lodge for various huntingtrophees not terribly far to the northeast of Canterbury. It isn't that he hunts in that region, but his more regal places should not be 'marred' by such trophees, so they are specifically hidden there. I would be happy to see the place plundered. The troops would love the cognac, sherry and wine he keeps there."
"So I should try to have soneone capture the place?"
"Preferably with pictures and all."
"My liege, You do know that this isn't exactly on the most logical route if you were to land there. So I wonder why any commander would risk his troops like that."
"Ahh... Herr Admiral, as you know the Army took control of the guns for several ships, including the Mackensen class battlecruisers and the unfinished Bayerns, as well as quite a few 11 and 12 inch guns the factories have constructed. I know that you lack a certain degree of ammunition, thanks to British intervention as well as the Army's insatiable hunger for guns and ammunition. But I still hold a slight influence in logistics, I might be able to secure you a rather substantial shipment of ammunition for your big guns."
"I see... That certainly changes things, but I have to weigh it out."
"Of course my friend, you needn't tell me, the event will tell me soon enough."
With that the conversation is over.
So the Kaiser is trying to humiliate king George once more, and get some influence back at the same time. Clearly it is an uneven deal for him... That ammo can become absolutely vital, but there are some risks involved beyond getting tied to the Kaiser. You have to do some serious thinking on this.

Shortly after the conversation you are interrupted by the dockmaster who personally delivers you a note from Howaldswerke Kiel, that Magdeburg II has been comissioned, and would hopefully arrive some time tomorrow. And a message from A. G. Weser in Bremen that Leipzig II is going to be comissioned tomorrow. Especially the last is an impressive feat of engineering with her having only been laid down quite recently.

Late in the afternoon you are informed that three British battleships have shelled the German lines in Belgium and the nearby ports. So far no reports on their composition or class.
As darkness falls Operation Klapperschlange is supposed to snap it's mouth shut on Kent, landing the troops. You don't know if they have begun, or even arrived, but their silence gives you hope.
As the last light snakes over the horizon a report ticks in. The zeppeliner V-15 sent to mine Hartlepool reports seeing a collection of stationary ships on the Dogger Bank, in the middle of several smaller ships nuged against it's flanks and with a barge or something similar off to one side, lies what the crew believes is a battleship. Stossburg indicates that this might be the Queen Elizabeth or Valiant, the two battleships that you have no information on from the last battle (Barham sacrificed itself to let Valiant slink away in the darkness, and Queen Elizabeth was certainly not doing great when you saw her last), involved in some recoveryeffort.

In the gloomly lit office on the night of the 23rd of March, you have several choices to make.

What will you do?

1) Breakout sideoperation...
A: Follow the advise of the battlecruiser captains, and make a decoy of two fast light cruisers (Cöln class ships would be the best for this) during the early morning (perhaps even late night), and when Furious is expected to have sailed far enough to follow them, you break out with the main fleet.
B: Mommsen makes a good argument that the Furious might not choose to follow the decoy, but needs to be chased away, sunk if possible.
C: Siemens however is wary to split the forces at all in a chanse that can end up as an ambush. Instead he prefers to sail out after dark. While relatively secure from prying eyes, the result will be a movement down the Channel in daylight and the landing at Boulogne could be at risk.
D: The two zeppeliners' positions during their attacks seems to indicate that Furious might not stay in one spot, and thus it is far from certain it will even spot the fleet. So just ignore it and sail when the time is fitting.

2) The Kaiser's Offer
A: Break the silence when the forces are supposed to have landed, and urge the cavalry element to send some forces on the Kaiser's little mission. The ammunition can be just what you need, and it is after all only a diversionary attack alltogher.
B: Keep silent and let the good Oberst do his job of sowing confusion and burning warehouses in Kent. The ammunition would be great, but not worth the risk of getting found out too soon, or a possible ambush of the forces requered for the capture.
C: Stage the capture... You are certain you can find a suitable lodge with all the neccesary trophees.

3) The British bombardment force
A: Order the escorting battleships of the task force to intercept the weaker British force. The position of the two forces relative to logical British ports for the British force, makes it almost certain you can catch them.
B: Don't do anything. It is risky so far out, and who knows what the British are hiding beyond the horizon of the coast?
C: Rather than risking batleships send 7 of the escorting torpedoboats (leaving 6 to defend the main force) and have them mascerade as French destroyers. They could possibly ambush the battleships, hopefully causing serious damage. Unfortunately they are likely to suffer serious losses.

4) The Unknown Operation*
A: Order the strike force to detach a small balanced force (a battleship, a couple light cruisers and some torpedoboats) to investigate the odd sighting of V-15.
B: Order two fast light cruisers to investigate. Fast in and fast out.
C: Let the British play what they want as long as they stay clear of the strike force.

* (Wölfchen of Wolf II doesn't have enoguh range to check it out, and certainly not enough firepower to damage anything.)