Red Flood [Archive] - Page 2

Franconicus

08-29-2006, 16:50

Chapter 22 – To Greece
June 26th-28th, 1940

On the airport Ramcke decides to fly to Greece. He feels that Greece could become important soon. He says goodbye to Otzen and asks him to send his travel data to the RLM.

The plane takes off. First stop is Milano, and then the plane crosses the Alps. Here turbulences shake the plane, and Ramcke is feeling kind of seasick. He can hardly remember the last time he felt seasick. Must have been when he was 17.

He tanks the Lord that they finally touch ground at Munich. He is looking for a hotel, while the pilot refuels the engine and makes the arrangements for the flight on the Balkans. At the hotel Ramcke takes a big cup of coffee and calls Schulz. Schulz tells him the latest news:

“Student received your first report. He said that you better hurry and bring something better soon. He wants to have creative ideas how to spank the Tommies. He said, he expected more from an officer of the Fallschirmjäger than antiquated ideas from the Big War.

Here in the RLM all hells broke loose. Everyone is focused on the operation against the British. The raids against the convoys and the harbors will start soon.

There is a report from the Fallschirmjäger commanders. The units will be refilled, trained and ready for combat in January. The 22.Division (LL) is almost ready for combat. Hitler placed it into the Führer Reserves. It is under his direct order and is at stand-by.

There are currently a lot of rumors about the Balkans. There is no clear picture, but it is obvious that something important is going on.”

Ramcke replies that he is going to find out and breaks off the conversation. Student is not satisfied, his ideas are called antiquated. Ramcke has to find something better soon. Maybe he should write something about Malta; something inventive. Or should he wait until he is at Greece? He recalls the meeting with Forza. He remembers that Ernesto proposed a combined airborne and submarine operation. Or an airborne-submarine operation? He cannot remember the details. That would be something inventive! Damned, this Special Forces commander could drink!

Next morning the flight goes on. They fly via Yugoslavia and touch down at Athens late at night. He takes a hotel, sleeps for a couple of hours, and then he takes a taxi to the embassy. The German embassy is almost empty. He is trying to find someone to help him. Finally he is sitting in the office of Karl Weber, the assistant ambassador. Weber reads the letter of reference:

“I am sorry, Oberstleutnant Ramcke! You should have sent a telegram. We did not know you were coming. It is Friday, you know, hardly anybody is working today. I will try to do the best to help you, but I am afraid that it will not be possible to get in contact with some officials from the Greek administration before Monday. Even then it will be difficult. Do you know what is going on here?”

Ramcke: “What is going on?”

Weber: “What do you know about Greek history?”
Ramcke: “Wasn’t there Aristotle and Plato?”

Weber rolls his eyes: “Excellent! Well, let me start with the latest history. After the Great War the whole Balkans was rearranged. This was difficult, because the different nationalities are mixed very strongly. Therefore, almost all nations have territorial claims against each other. There were two factors that stabilized the system. First, the two strongest nations, Britain and France guaranteed the status quo. They did not want to start any changes of the situation after the Versailles treaty. The other factor was the Balkan Pact. This was a treaty signed by Greece, Turkey, Romania, and Yugoslavia in 1934. The signatories agreed to suspend all disputed territorial claims against each other and their immediate neighbors following the aftermath of the Great War and a rise in various regional ethnic minority tensions. Other nations in the region that had been involved in related diplomacy refused to sign the document, including Italy, Albania, Bulgaria, Hungary, and the Soviet Union. No signatories were mostly those governments with territorial expansion in mind. The Balkan Pact helped to ensure peace between Turkey and the independent countries in southeastern Europe that had been part of the Ottoman Empire, most importantly Greece. The patron of this treaty was once again Britain.”

Ramcke: “So England has a lot of influence here?”

Weber: “It had had. Things started to change when Hitler became Reichskanzler. Germany became an important trade partner for all Balkan countries; although it did not influence the political situation. Now, after the defeat of France and the retreat of England the guarantees from these countries lost their worth. Now everybody is just looking who will make the first step and assert its claim.”

Ramcke: “And who will do this first step?”

Weber: “It has already been done. Two days ago the Soviets presented an ultimatum to Romania demanding the cession of territory in Bess Arabia and Northern Bukovina. Germany reluctantly intervenes to help persuade the Romanians to give in.”

Ramcke: “Why that?”

Weber: “I guess that this was part of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. Bulgaria and Hungary will assert their claims, too. We are talking in total about 30% of the Romanian territory. Do not forget that Romania is not an unimportant country. It controls huge oil fields. It is essential for the German Wehrmacht.”

Ramcke: “How will the Romanians react?”

Weber: “They are trying desperately to get help from the British. The British wouldn’t prefer anything but to get access of the oil fields. However, they are simply not in the position to help Romania. Therefore Romania has to find another patron. They can choose between the USSR and Germany. Regardless how they decide, they will loose their independency. If they hesitate too long, Hungary will invade and the others will follow.”

Ramcke: “That is very interesting. Where is the connection to Greece?”

Weber: “First of all, the Balkans is part of the so called Italian sphere of interest. The Italians will bristle if Germany intervenes. They are afraid that Germany and The Soviet Union make agreements on their costs. Italy claims Greece and Yugoslavia. I guess that they will invade one of these countries, soon. If they are successful, it will strengthen their position at the Balkans and in the Stahlpakt. Then there is Bulgaria. They have claims against Greece, too. They are only waiting for the right moment to invade either Greece or Romania.”

Ramcke: “An explosive situation, in deed! Tell me something about the Greece government.”

Weber: “In 1936 General Metaxa took the power and established an authoritarian regime with fascist leanings. After the Greco-Turkish treaty of 1930 and the Balkan Pact of 1934, the threat from Greece's traditional enemy, Turkey, was reduced. Albania was too weak to be a threat and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia did not seriously press its claims on southern Macedonia. Therefore, during the 1930s, the main threat was perceived to be Bulgaria and her aspirations to reclaim Western Thrace. Thus, when, in 1936, Metaxas came to power, plans had been laid down for the reorganization of the country's armed forces and for a fortified defensive line along the Greco-Bulgarian frontier. The line was constructed under Metaxas' regime and named after the dictator: the "Grammi Metaxa". During the following years, the Army benefited from great investments aiming at its modernization: it was technologically upgraded, enlarged, largely re-equipped and as a whole dramatically improved from its previous deplorable state. The Greek government purchased new arms for the three Armies, and the Navy acquired new ships. However, due to the increasing threat and the eventual outbreak of the war, the most significant purchases from abroad, made during the years 1938–1939, were never or only partially delivered. Also, a massive contingency plan was developed and great amounts of food and utilities were stockpiled by the Army in many parts of Greece for the eventuality of war.”

Ramcke: “How do you rate the strength of the Greece army?”

Weber: “It is good to the standard of the Great War. However, it lacks tanks, anti-tank guns and air defence. The air force is weak.”

Ramcke: “How will this develop?”

Weber: “Metaxa is very pro-German. However, by increasing the pressure, the Italians are pushing him into the arms of the British. The British are still controling the Eastern Mediterranean. They will support Greece. I am sure they have plans to occupy Crete and to send expedition forces to Greece. They have several reasons to support Greece. First of all, by engaging the enemy on the Balkans they win time to improve their position at home. Then, this is an opportunity to show the neutral countries that Britain is willing to fight and willing to support every nation against the Germans. Finally, if they can make a stand here, they can use Greece to bomb the Romanian oilfields.”

Ramcke: “Is there a chance to get Metaxa into the Stahlpakt, let’s say by offering him territory of the Turks?”

Weber: “No chance. The government is not expansionistic at all. Metaxa is trying to stay neutral. Economical the country still depends on England. By the way, the country is full of English agents. They have two goals. They want to form an alliance between Greece, Yugoslavia and Turkey. And they want to convince Metaxa to call for British military help.”

Ramcke: “Will they be successful?”

Weber: “At the moment they have no chance. Neither Greece nor Yugoslavia nor Turkey want to provoke Germany. Hitler made it clear that he would not tolerate an anti German pakt or British soldiers on the Balkans. If the Italians keep on pressing, however …..”

Ramcke: “Let’s assume that Italy will attack Greece and Germany will help.”

Weber: “Italy is in a very strong position. It can attack Greece via Albania, but it can also attack it from the bases on the Dodecanes. They can occupy the Greek islands, including Crete, but they can also land on the mainland. However, Britain will interfere, especially if the Italians operate on sea. Greece territory has a lot of advantages for the defenders. However, there are also some critical points for the defender. If they are blocked, the front can be cut off from the mainland.”

Ramcke: “How?”

Weber points to a map hanging at the wall: “Look here. Let us assume that the Italian army invades Greece coming from Albania. Then Greece will be forced to concentrate most of his army here in the northwestern part. Additionally they will have to deploy some troops along the frontier to Bulgaria. Bulgaria can join the invasion at any time. And the Greece have to occupy the islands, too. If I were an officer of the fabulous Fallschirmjäger, I would take a look at this place, the small strip of land between the Aegaen and the Ionic Sea with the town of Corinth. If you are able to occupy it, you separate the Pelloponese from the rest of the country and you threaten the capitol. There is a channel, connecting the two seas. If you take these bridges I guess the northern front will break down.”

Ramcke: “That is an interesting idea. I have to think about it. What else would you do?”

Weber: “I would occupy Crete, of course. The British will try to get there, so we have to be there first. Once they are there, it will cost a lot to get rid of them, again.”

Ramcke: “Maybe you are right. Err, looks difficult.”

Weber: “You have to act fast. Another blitzkrieg. If this takes too long, Yugoslavia and Turkey may support Greece and the English will be able to send troops to Greece. If they can stop the assault, it will be difficult to getthem out of the mountains, again.”

Ramcke: “Anything else you can tell me?”

Weber: “No, use your own mind! Just one thing: I told you that this country is at the edge of war and that it is full of spies and agents. To be honest, I would rather see you leave today. If you need more information you can send it to me at any time. I do not think that someone important of the Greece government will talk to you and even then I do not think that the Auswärtige Amt or Hitler himself would like you to this.”

Ramcke: “Do not worry. I will leave as soon as possible. I have to decide were to go and then I will leave. Thank you for your help.”

Ramcke leaves the embasy and goes to the hotel.

Tasks for today:

1) Discussion: What are your proposal regarding Greece.
2) Where to turn to now?

Keba

08-29-2006, 21:29

Well, the ambassador is right, no country in the Balkans wants a war ... in fact, most of them are by far too reliant on Germany to be able to do anything. Yugoslavia is one such, Bulgaria, Romania ... Greece perhaps less, but still ...

I see two options ... one, we ensure that the Italians gain their victory in North Africa, that way, the diplomatic pressure from that front will decrease, as the Italian political position is no longer precarious ... two, we do perform a military strike, which is likely to be both costly and time-consuming, and time is not something we can spare. I would be a proponent of option one ... it is the best long-term. As it is, we could only require airbases on Crete, and maybe the use of Greek ports for the operations in the Mediterranean, once Britain has been handed it's head in Africa, the Greeks would likely join the alliance. Before that, it would be difficult ... perhaps the most important thing is to keep the Italians from bothering us too much, and especially keep them away from Yugoslavia, we can't afford to lose an ally there, and the importance of it's position for the transfer of supplies cannot be stressed enough, something that is likely to be lost if the Italians are left on their own. As to Romania, there is little we can do ... from memory, the partitioning did, in fact, drive Romania toward a Fascist goverment, I think, not certain, but it essentially became a puppet of sorts.

While we cannot convince the Greeks to enter the war, at this time, there is no necessity. Also, I see a possibility ... the Greek army is in the process of being modernised ... perhaps German industry could provide them with the weapons they need, even offer investments ... that way, the Greeks' reliance on Britain is lessened, and our influence increases. Nevertheless, it would be a useful addition to the alliance.

The war with Britain will be made or broken in Africa ... I say we go to Lybia, and see the Italian troops there, talk with them a little, and see what is their status ... and just how badly off the Italians are.

For now, we can sate Student with the propsal of the FJ being used to take forward positions during the Italian advance in Africa, and maybe even some early operational plans for the capture of Malta, to test out some new doctrines and tactics for the paratrooper core, and to test out the coordination between the 7. Fallshirmjaeger and the 22. Luftlande divisions during the operation, something that would be vital should we attack Britain. The information about Canaris should be delivered personally, after all, the man is chief of the Abwehr. Also, we might propose the Italian strategy of inserting divers into ports and mining ships for use against the British Royal Navy ... all we would need are schematics of the Italian torpedoes used for that, and some training ... we can rely on the Italians for that ... that way, we reinforce the image of the transfer of experience going both ways, an important morale improvement for the Italians, showing them that Germans are not better in everything and that Italians are needed and respected by the Germans.

King Kurt

08-30-2006, 09:02

Our report on Greece should be:
a) Diplomatic pressure must be put on Italy to back off Greece. We want them to join the Axis, not have to be invaded. Our assesment of the Italian army is that it is not man enough for the job. This would be done by encouraging the Italians to concentrate on taking Suez, threatening to withdraw support for their efforts if they don't. I know our hero is a lowly officer, but he can pass on an honest military assesment to Hitler - who it seems he may see on his return - on the poor state of the Italian armies.
b) We can approach Greece about using bases for an assualt on Crete or Cyprus. This would be in exchange for getting the Italians off their back.
c) We would stress to Hitler that these actions would stabilise the balkans into the side of the Axis and remove that uncertainty
d) We should prepare plans for the taking of the Corinth bridges in case we have to invade Greece in the future.

Our next visit should be Turkey - Turkey is inevitably linked to Greece, so we need to find out the situation on the ground and weither there are any political factions which are favourable to us.

A thread that we must put throughout the report is the poor state of the Italian forces and that we might end up having to constantly bail them out of military disasters if we do not put them on the right track.

As for the use of the FJ, we should draw up a list of possible targets - Gib, Malta, crete, Cyprus, Suez, Corinth bridges etc - and draw up a balance sheet for each target - strategic value, diplomatic problems, military and logistic issues etc. Finaly, we must put a reality check on all these targets - we do not want the FJ to become a one shot weapon. This is what happened in Crete where the FJ achieved its target by taking the island, but it was such a Phyric victory that they were never used as a coup de main force again, ending up as pockets of quality infantry on all fronts.:2thumbsup:

Franconicus

09-04-2006, 08:54

Interlude - In the hotel room
June 28th, 1940

This afternoon Ramcke stays in his hotel room reflecting the results o his tour. He has already visited most of the countries on the European side of the Ocean. What are the conclusions?

He knows a lot about Spain. Assaulting Gibraltar is feasible, however, there is a risk on the strategical level. Ramcke doubts that Hitler wants to have this kind of complication. France could be a substitute. Italy? The ally is much weaker than expected, however, too bullheaded to cooperate. Malta would be the perfect training ground for the Fallschirmjäger. However, there are political hurdles and, to be honest, the assault of Malta would not be decisive. At least everybody seems to think so.

Greece looks much better. It is a difficult territory for tank formations. However, it would be ideal for airborne operations. Corinth or Crete are promising targets, maybe the Fallschirmjäger could take both. However, Greece is not an enemy of the Germans, not even part of the German sphere of interest. Propably, Hitler would not be pelased if Ramcke suggests operations against Greece. Furthermore, Greece is connected with the situation on the Balkans. There seems to be something cooking but Ramcke cannot estimate what is going on there. Maybe he should take some time to visit Bulgaria.

Greece would be a stepping stone to Northern Africa, Syria, even Suez. Germany could enter the Mediterrian Theatre and make war independantly from the Italians. The targets in Africa and Asia would have strategic value.

To conquer Suez the Germans would still have to cross the ocean, still controlled by the Royal Navy. Would the Luftwaffe be able to clear the sea? Wouldn’t it be better to rely on the army and fight the way through Turkey and Syria? The Royal Navy could hardly stop the Germans there.

Russia! Russia plays an important role on the Balkans. It has interests and influence on Turkey and the Middle East. Ramcke has not concerned with Russia so far. He could visit an old friend at Moscow. Maybe he could give him some information.

Time flies. It is June 28th and there is hardly anything he can do over the weekend. He could take a car and drive to Turkey. Or he could hire a ship and sail to Syria. However, the British could catch him. July 15th is when he has to make his report. Obviously he has to talk to Student before, to be sure that he writes the right things in the right form. Maybe he should return to Germany, now. He could get a lot of information there, too. Additionally he could discuss his ideas with some old friends, members of the Fallschirmjäger, the navy and the army.

Ramcke is getting more and more nervous. He knows that he has to make a decision, soon, but stil he does not know what to do.

1) Go to Turkey and get information about the political and military situation.
2) Take a boat and sail to Syria.
3) Go back to Berlin. There you can propably
i. Get data about the armies of Turkey and Bulgaria
ii. Discuss your results with some friends
iii. Talk with Student
iv. Meet Kesselring and talk about the potential of the Luftwaffe to fight ships.
4) Visit France

Keba

09-04-2006, 11:33

Considering that we only have two weeks ... we better hightail it back to Germany, talk to Student. We definitely should talk to Kesselring first, though, it might give us sufficent information for the talk with Student.

Stukas should perform against ships well enough, and nothing can match the Me-109 at this point.

AggonyDuck

09-04-2006, 12:58

We should definately head back to Berlin. It is pretty clear, that until Italy wants us, we will be forced to handle this alone. It is crucial that we can get in a position to influence the OKW. Any entrance to the Mediterranean theater in the near future requires putting diplomatic pressure on Italy or Spain. Our best hope is to get the 7. Flieger Division and the 22.Luftlande-Infanterie-Division moved to the Mediterranean theater for further operations. If we have the option we should also strive to get ourselves a company of the Brandenburg regiment.
So Berlin it is. :2thumbsup:

Kraxis

09-04-2006, 23:48

Berlin and talk with old friends and Student.

Obviously our inexperience with the FJ has impacted our work so far. Perhaps the knowledge of more experienced officers could help us, and Student could direct us in the correct direction as to what he really wants.
And perhaps Student can help us get some diplomatic strength in joining forces with Forza and take Malta.
Not to forget the whole Canaris affair.

Kagemusha

09-05-2006, 20:05

I agree with Duckie and Kraxis.Lets head back to Berlin.

Franconicus

09-07-2006, 15:53

Chapter 23 – Back Home
June 29th – 30th, 1940

Soft rain welcomes Ramcke. He drives straight to the RLM. Although it is Saturday evening the building is like a beehive. Ramcke goes to his office and meets Schulz there. He gives him list with names: “Schulz, please arrange meetings. I have to talk to these men as soon as possible. Furthermore I need detailed maps of Gibraltar, Malta, Corinth and Crete. Additionally I need 3D models, in a scale of, let’s say 1:30. And I need more people to support me, researches, writing reports etc.. Call the Abwehr, ask for General Oster. Tell him that I need information about the armed forces of Turkey and Bulgaria.”

Now that he is back at home Ramcke’s drive is back. He goes to his hotel rooms, empties his baggage, and takes some sleeps. At 6 o’clock he returns to his office. There he looks through the latest news:

28th of June. Marshal Balbo, Italian Governor and Commander in Chief in Libya, is killed by friendly antiaircraft fire while flying over Tobruk during a British air raid. Marshal Graziani is appointed to replace him.
Damned! This will delay the Italian operations!

Force H reaches Gibraltar.

In Romania the situation grows more acute. The Soviet Union is increasing the pressure and Hungary starts to get agitated, too.

Schulz enters the room.
Ramcke: “Schulz, what is the news?”
Schulz: “Did you hear that Hitler promoted Göring? He is Reichsmarschall, now.”
Ramcke: “Reichsmarschall? Isn’t Feldmarschall the highest rank??”
Schulz: “It is a title created for Göring. Guess it suits to his uniform. Well, the Brits managed to bomb some German towns lately. Although they caused more fear than damage I bet they did not increase Göring’s popularity. By the way, Hitler is still on a trip through France and Göring and Student accompany him. Therefore I could not make a meeting with Student. Kesselring is at France too. The operations against England are going to start on July 10th.”
“Which units will be involved?”
“Besides Kesselring’s Luftflotte 2 there will be Sperrle’s Luftflotte against the Western coast and the midlands and Luftflotte 5, Stumpff, attacking North England and Scotland from Norway and Denmark.”
“What about the other meetings?”
“They are already waiting at the meeting room, Major Schulz, III.FSJ Reg.1, Hauptmann Pietzonka, III.FSJ Reg.1, and Oberstleutnant Choltitz III.LLInf.Reg.16 of the Luftlandedivision 22. I could dip the maps up; the models will take a couple of days.”
“Excellent!”

Ramcke goes to the meeting room and welcomes the officers of the Fallschirmjäger and Luftlande unit. They are all medium ranks; they have been in action lately. In fact these are the men that can help Ramcke planning his operation. Ramcke makes a short summary of his mission and what he found out about the Mediterranean theatre. Then he asks his guests about there experience.

Pietzonka: “Well, an airborne operation has three phases. Each phase is critical and has to be well planned and well executed. First phase is how to get the troops to their target. Second phase is how to assault the target. Third phase is how to hold it until the reinforcements arrive.”
Schulz: “You can land your troops via parachute or planes, transporters or gliders. For transporters you must have a ground to land. If you land via planes, the soldiers will be equipped and you can collect them much faster.”
Choltitz: “We also used seaplanes to touch down near bridges. In Norway we simply touched down on the airfields. We could take the enemy by surprise. In the Netherlands we tried the same. However, this time the enemy was prepared and the airfields were will guarded. It was a bad surprise.”
Pietzonka: “Yes, we should find a landing zone without strong defensive fire. If this is impossible the assault has to be prepared by Stuka raids. They have to eliminate the air defense. The airborne forces are very immobile. Do not forget that you have to gather your unit and then march to the target. Therefore, it is ideal to land straight on the target. This guarantees the moment of surprise.”
Ramcke: “What about phase two, the assault?”
Schulz: “You have to make sure that your paras have their weapons. Then they can take the positions. They are excellent trained experts with superior weapons. They should clear the position rapidly. Bunkers are not an issue, we showed that at Belgium.”
Choltiz: “You get into trouble when the surprise is gone and the enemy realizes that he is stronger than you are. Then it is a question of abrasion. You have to land more troops as fast as possible to overwhelm the enemy. And use air support. If you fail you will loose.”
Ramcke: “I see. Phase three?”
Pietzonka: “You have to hold your position. Keep in mind that paratroops have no heavy equipment and only limited supply. If you wait too long, they will have to surrender. By the way, the Allies captured quite a lot of our men. They are now in an English POW camp.”
Ramcke: “Look at these maps. Do you think an airborne operation is promising?”
Choltitz shakes his head: “Gibraltar? Hard nut! You need more information. First of all you have to defeat the ships and the air defense. Then you can attack with an airborne operation. Good thing is that you do not have to fly a long time over the territory of the enemy. Cam we get a clear picture of the fortifications. If we could land straight beneath them, maybe we could blow them up?”
Schulz: “Malta does not seem to be difficult. If it is true that all the defenders are at the northern part we could land in the south and then attack. We could use gliders to get some artillery. Stukas could support us. The island is so close to Italy that we could rapidly land the Luftlande Division.”
Pietzonka: “Corinth is feasible, too. It depends on the strength of the defense, of course and how fast the army could reach us.”
Schulz: “Crete looks promising, too. However, we need to see how many defenders are on the island and we have to get an airport very quickly. Sea transport may be difficult, as the RN controls the sea. Therefore we have to rely on air transport and air supply. If the Greece concentrate their defense on the airports it may be difficult. Then we need a lot of bombers and Stukas to break the defense. I assume that the Greece do not have many anti aircraft guns?”
Ramcke: “You are right. This is not a problem. They do not have fighters, either. Tell me something about the transport planes!”
Pietzonka: “The Ju 52? It carries 12 Fallschirmjäger pls four airdrop container. A squadron can carry 144 Jäger. The DFS 230 glider has a range of about 60 km. Touch down distance is 20m. It can carry 1,000 kg. 4 soldiers, one heavy machine gun with three men and 3,200 bullets, one cart, 3,000 bullets for guns and one box of anti tank ammunition. Or 9 soldiers, one radio, 3,000 bullets. Or one 18cm grenade launcher, two soldiers, a cart.”
The door opens and Schulz comes in. “Ramcke, there is a phone call for you!”
Ramcke leaves the room and picks up the phone. A voice tells him: This is the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces. General Keitel asks you come and give him a status report this morning.

Ramcke hesitates. What is he going to reply?
1) Do not go to Keitel. Göring would not be happy if he hears that Keitel gets the report first.
2) Go to Keitel, but tell him nothing. Maybe he will think you are incompetent, but maybe you can avoid trouble.
3) Go to Keitel and tell him what you know. Maybe he can help you. If you do not go, he may be offended.

Keba

09-07-2006, 16:38

1) Keitel is the incompetent one ... we're best off getting on Goring's good side, he is the more importat to us right now, being in command of the Luftwaffe ... the army doesn't really affect us all that much at this moment, most of our missions are in areas where the army is next to useless.

We'd be best off if we find some excuse for not giving the report to him ... but in the greater scheme, Keitel is not important, and once he goes down, it is better that we are not associated with him. Besides, if his career is destroyed, then the assassination attempt on Hitler might be successful ... :sweatdrop:

Kagemusha

09-07-2006, 16:59

King Kurt

09-08-2006, 09:14

Chief of Staff of OKW wants us to report to him? This cant be good. Order is an order.I cant understand how we could not follow the order without being courtmarshalled.But i think we should be now getting our Superiors to the phone quickly before we have to present ourselves at OKW.If we go to Keitel without informing our Superiors we wont have many friends soon.:sweatdrop:
Kage is right - we can't casualy ignore the Chief of Staff of OKW. We must obey the order, but do so with the full knowledge of our superiors. We must let them know immediately. Our hero seems to be a pawn in a bigger game, so he must closely ally himself to his superiors and keep them fully informed.:2thumbsup:

Franconicus

09-08-2006, 10:51

You both are right. However, do not forget that Göring and Student are somewhere in France, together with Hitler. Keitel wants your report this morning.

SwordsMaster

09-08-2006, 11:56

Telegram Student, and go see Keitel without telling him much just yet, at least until the telegram is replied to. You cannot just refuse to see him, as that would land you in a courtmarshall...

Kraxis

09-08-2006, 14:16

Playing dumb is not going to be good either.

Göring is bound to find out about that, and will likely believe we ARE stupid, which in turn will hurt our chances with him even more.

We simply have to go and be evasive, and puzzled at why Keitl want us to report to him.

AggonyDuck

09-08-2006, 14:35

3) Go to Keitel and tell him what you know. Maybe he can help you. If you do not go, he may be offended.

If the OKW Chief of Staff wants us to report to him, then it is our duty to do so. I think we should tell him what we know (which isn't much), because going there and playing incompetent will definately hurt us in the future.

Kagemusha

09-08-2006, 14:45

I think Kraxis is right.We should go there and tell him what we can.But maybe the Chief of Staff has other things in his mind really. Im sure that the information about us running around and asking questions has reached him and he is curious about our activities lately,maybe Canaris has also tipped him that we are messing up Abwerhs business. In that case we can always hide behind the backs of our superiors. We should remember that in 1940 Keitel was a different man then the wreckage that was left of him in 1945. For example in 1941 he clearly was against Operation Barbarossa and had furious arguments with Hitler about it.It was only later when he gave up and became that apathic figure most remember he was.

Franconicus

09-11-2006, 13:20

Chapter 23 – At the Supreme Command
June 30th, 1940
Half an hour later Ramcke is at the Supreme Command. He wishes that he could have informed Student, but that has not been possible. Never mind! He has to wait a quarter of an hour, and then he is called to Keitel’s bureau.
The commander offers him a chair and calls on him to report. Ramcke hesitates for a moment, but Keitel challenges him: “Oberstleutnant, tell me about your mission. Tell me everything, the facts as well as the conclusions.”
Ramcke starts slowly, but the longer he speaks the more he goes into detail. In the end, he notices that he has spoken for half an hour. Keitel has not interrupted him until he finished.

“Thank you, Oberstleutnant! The way you see the situation of Spain is similar to the report of Cannaris. Your rating of the Italian army is the same that we have. Those frogmen, you talked with, they are nothing but a expensive gadget. By the way, most of the information you have could have been collected without traveling through the Mediterranean Sea. You could have received everything here; without causing a stir. You say that you talked with Pariani about military cooperation, did you? Well, your analysis about Greece is very interesting. Airborne operation at Corinth and Crete are an option.
Maybe I can give you some advices for your report. You should analyze the options for an operation through Turkey to Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia; with or against the Turks. You should also be aware that Hitler will want to know your opinion about the Arabs. Finally you should make a statement about German support for Libya, whether it would be desirable to have troops there, if the ground could be used for tank forces, how many and what composition would suit.
Finally I recommend avoiding one mistake. You know that most commanders thought that it was impossible to invade France. They had good reasons, but they did not take into account the weakness of the enemy. Hitler did, and that is the reason why he is the greatest commander of all times, he anticipated that the French would break down and that the English would run away. Therefore, in your analysis, do not forget to describe the situation of the English, especially their weak points.”
“Thank you, General! I will heed your advice.”
“Oberstleutnant Ramcke, I received a note today. It is from the Italian Supreme Command. They offer us support for our operations against England. They tell me that they can send us several squadrons of fighters and bombers as well as some infantry divisions. What do you know about it?”
“Nothing, General!”
“What would you recommend?”
Ramcke is taken by surprise. What is he supposed to answer?
1) Reject the offer. The Italian forces are worthless; furthermore the Italians will need everything they have in Africa.
2) Recommend an exchange; Italian forces helping against England and in return German forces helping against the English at the Med.
3) Tell him that the proposal has to be analyzed in detail.

Kraxis

09-11-2006, 14:09

Damn... It seems we are being dragged into a powergame here. Keitl wants tanks to play a role, but we are not qualified for such a venture. And his dismissal of the Italian frogmen might get expensive later.

Well... And now the Italians are playing generous with forces they don't really have. However, it might just be the opening we have waited for, so I say we should jump at the chance and go for the exchange.

2!!!

Kagemusha

09-11-2006, 14:49

Agreed option 2 it is. It seems someone isnt telling us everything.The high command and even Hitler has direct expectations towards us.Maybe Student is also reporting straight to OKW or even Hitler bypassign Göring. We need to get Student on the phone soon.

Keba

09-11-2006, 17:02

Option 2 ... the Italians need all the help they can get ... and their troops aren't the help they need.

As to the frogmen ... perhaps we could lobby for an assignment in the Med, so that we can demonstrate the usefulness of such units, it would be beneficial in the long run, I believe.

Kietel is playing a power game, as is essentially everyone else. Remember, this man actually opposed Hitler and still retains his position, which speaks a fair bit of him. He is also a fine strategist, some of the early victories in Barbarossa were of his making.

King Kurt

09-12-2006, 09:57

I think B as well - perhaps we could suggest that the Italians send planes only. In particular, their SM 79 squadrons - torpedo bombers - would be useful in engaging the royal navy. Those and a few fighters to protect them would be useful. Historically, I believe the Italians sent some bombers and fighters in a raid during the battle of Britian and it got quite a savaging - so much so they never came again. The troops would not be much use, except as garrison troops in france.
We ought to stand up for the frogmen - they are a bit of a gimmick, but they are the closest to an elite unit in the Italian forces and they are also politicaly important as well.
Our top priority should be to contact our superiors so they are aware of what is going on.:2thumbsup:

Franconicus

09-12-2006, 16:27

Chapter 24 – Waiting for Student’s return
July 1st, 1940

Ramcke returns to his office. On the way he is wondering if he did everything right or if he spoilt everything. Damned, he is a warrior, not a politician. He wonders what Student will say. He has to get him on the phone as soon as possible.

Back in the ministry he tries reach his commander by phone and telegram. No reply. He must be on the way. At least he talks to Student’s adjutant and gets the information that the general will return tomorrow.

Time to think things over and to prepare the next steps. Ramcke knows that the time of his investigation is almost over. The time of decisions comes.

Ramcke reflex the advices Keitel gave him. He has to admit that the general was right. Ramcke has to make up his mind about an operation through Turkey. Was it a mistake that he did not visit the country? Well, Keitel said that he could have gathered all information at Berlin. But how?

He reads the reports on his table:
In the English Channel... The German forces begin to occupy the Channel Islands.
In Bucharest... The Romanian government concedes to Soviet territorial demands presented the previous day.
In the United States... In the Republican Party convention at Philadelphia Wendell Willkie is selected as the presidential candidate after the sixth ballot by a margin of 654 to 318 over Senator Taft. The convention is overwhelmingly in favor of a policy of nonintervention in the war.
In Vichy France... The French government moves from Bordeaux to Vichy.
In Budapest... The Hungarian government alleges frontier violations by Romanian troops; several civilians are reported dead. Hungarian troops mass at the border with Romania.
In Bucharest... The Romanian government renounces the Anglo-French guarantee of territorial integrity. Romanian troops mass at the border with Hungary.
Over Britain... Hull and Wick, in northeast Scotland, are bombed in daylight by the Luftwaffe. British casualties are reported to be 12 killed and 22 injured.
In the Channel Islands... The German occupation is completed.
Over Germany... During the night (July 1-2), 12 RAF Hampden bombers raid the naval base at Kiel. A 2000 lbs bomb is dropped near the battle cruiser Scharnhorst by Guy Gibson and 2 small bombs strike the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen.
From London... Britain warns that it will not countenance an Axis occupation of Syria.

At this moment someone knocks at the door. It is Schuz, bringing the information he needs:

TURKEY,
Population: 17 100 000 (in 1938). Borders with (during WWII) Bulgaria, Greece, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Soviet Union. It also has access to the Black and Mediterranean Seas.
Area: 767 100 squared kilometers.
Capital City: Ankara
Overview: Shortly before WWII, the internal and external policies of the Turkish government began to diverge from the progressive course undertaken by K. Ataturk; subsequently to Ataturk's death in 1938, under combined pressure from reactionary domestic elements and from imperialistic powers, Turkey halted the realization of social reforms while in foreign policy it adopted an anti-Soviet stance. After the eruption of World War II, it announced a declaration of neutrality, and on 19/10/1939 it signed a mutual assistance pact with Great Britain and France. Influenced by the early war triumphs of Nazi Germany, Turkey decided to initiate cooperation with the Axis

Armed Forces: In 1938 the Turkish standing army had 20 000 officers and 174 000 men. Military service lasted for three years. In 1939 the Turkish army was administrationally divided into three army inspectorates, nine corps, and one military governorship; the country's armed forces were composed of 20 infantry divisions, three brigades of mountain troops, one fortress brigade, and five cavalry divisions (including two reserve cavalry divisions) - altogether 132 regiments (60 infantry, six mountain troops, 21 cavalry, eight reserve cavalry, 20 field artillery, 10 heavy artillery, and seven fortress artillery). The armed forces were poorly equipped; weapons shipments from Germany, Great Britain, and U.S. did little to improve that condition. Just before the onset of hostilities the Turkish navy underwent a program of expansion and modernization; two submarines were ordered for construction in Germany, two submarines and four destroyers were ordered for construction in U.K. Lesser vessels were also constructed in home shipyards. After Germany delivered one submarine in 1939, the Turkish navy contained 19 naval vessels and they included one armoured ship, one line cruiser, two light cruisers, two torpedo-boats, four destroyers, five submarines, and four other lesser ships (most vessels were obsolete); with a total displacement of 55 775 tonnes (the number of naval personnel stood at 9 200). The real combat value of the navy was insignificant. By 1940 the Turkish air force was composed of four air regiments (each regiment contained six air companies), and had in possession a total of 370 aircraft (it had 8 500 personnel).

IRAQ
Population: 3 700 000 (1938). Borders with Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Iran (Persia), and has a narrow access to the Persian Gulf.
Area: 444 442 squared kilometers.
Capital City: Bagdad
Overview: In 1932 U.K. formally recognized Iraq's independence, and a constitutional monarchy was established. However, the British political and economic influence remained paramount; the former League of Nations administrators were permitted lucrative oil extraction concessions as well as the unlimited use of military airfields at Habbaniya and Shuayba.

Armed Forces: In the early 1930's the Iraqi armed forces were established and began to expand steadily thereafter (the first army division was raised in 1932). In June of 1935, the national parliament ratified a compulsory military service for all males capable of bearing arms, for a period of ten years (including 18-24 months of basic service). At the beginning the army was composed of two infantry divisions, one independent cavalry brigade, and one independent frontier guards brigade. In June of 1938 the two army divisions included the following units: three cavalry regiments, nine batteries of field artillery, six batteries of mountain artillery, one mechanized battery, 28 infantry battalions, one motorized machine-gun company, two signal battalions, one armoured car section, one light tank company, one engineer battalion, and a small coastal-river flotilla (one royal yacht and a tug on the Persian Gulf, and four motor patrol boats on Euphrates and Tigris). In 1939 the number of infantry divisions was doubled to four (the total number of army personnel increased to 20 000 soldiers and officers). By 1941 the armoured and motorized units were expanded while the army personnel reached the number of 41 000. The birth of the Iraqi air force took place already in 1931, when under the guidance and leadership of the British the very first Iraqi air force wing was created from equipment supplied by the U.K., a second one followed in 1934. In order to reduce the reliance on Britain, Iraqi government formed a third air wing in 1937 composed of Italian-manufactured aircraft. In 1939 the air force was made up of two army-air cooperation squadrons, one bomber-transport squadron, one fighter squadron, one communications squadron, one flying training school, one apprentices training school, and one aeroplane depot. By 1940 the Iraqi air force contained six air wings (planes were primarily of British and U.S. origin

IRAN (PERSIA), Empire of Iran, Keshwar-e Shahanshahi-ye Iran.
Population: 15 000 000 (1938), ~ 16 800 000 (1945). Borders (during WWII) with British India (present-day Pakistan), Afghanistan, Soviet Union, Turkey and Iraq. It also has access to the Persian Gulf, Gulf of Oman, Caspian Sea, and the Indian Ocean.
Area: 1 648 000 squared kilometers.
Capital City: Tehran
Overview: In the first years of the conflict, despite of self-declared neutrality, Iran fell under a strong influence of Nazi Germany which aimed at transforming it into a powerbase for German penetration of Near and Middle East.

Armed Forces: By 1937 the Iranian standing army numbered 1 507 officers and 30 872 NCOs and men. By 1939 the army was composed of nine mixed divisions and five independent brigades. There was also one independent infantry regiment, as well as one heavy artillery regiment, one anti-aircraft battalion, one independent transportation squadron, and an air force component consisting of three air regiments (200 machines, mostly British-manufactured Hawkers and De Havillands). The Iranian navy possessed two sloops, five patrol vessels, and some thugs and motor patrol boats on the Persian Gulf / Gulf of Oman, in addition to an imperial yacht and some motor patrol boats for service on the Caspian Sea. Aside from the yacht all vessels were of Italian origin. In 1940 an independent mechanized brigade made up of anti-aircraft, tank, and mechanized infantry regiments came into being. The number of active army personnel increased to 120 000. All of the armed forces were dispersed into six military districts. The armed police force fielded seven independent mixed regiments and 15 mixed battalions that formed a corps for internal and frontier security duties.

LEBANON,
Population: 855 000 (1938). Borders (in 1939) with Palestine and Syria. It also has access to the Mediterranean Sea.
Area: 10 450 squared kilometers.
Capital City: Beirut
Overview: Since 23/05/1926, Lebanon was transformed into a constitutional republic under a French protectorate. In 1936 France concluded with Lebanon a pact of friendship and alliance, according to which, the French League of Nations mandate was supposed to expire in 1939. However, France took advantage of the international situation that occurred in that year to illegally nullify this agreement. The French commissioner established martial law, abolished the constitution, and disbanded Lebanese parliament. The French military initiated the formation of Lebanese units that were incorporated into the "Levante" Army. Following the capitulation of France in June of 1940, the local colonial administration became completely subordinated to the puppet French Vichy regime.
Armed Forces: At the start of the war Lebanon created two infantry battalions (Bataillons de Chasseurs Libanois) and one cavalry squadron (these units formed an integral part of the French "Levante" Army that was stationed in Lebanon and Syria); in 1941 these units participated in military operations against British and Free French forces while fighting on behalf of the Vichy army.

SAUDI ARABIA,
Population: 5 750 000 (in 1938). Borders with (during WWII) Kuweit, Iraq, Transjordania, (North) Yemen, Aden-Hadramaut, Muscat and 'Oman, Trucial States, and Qatar. It has also access to the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
Area: ~ 1 600 000 squared kilometers.
Capital City: Riyadh
Overview: Althought Saudi Arabia never actively participated in the conflict, it did sever diplomatic relations with Germany on 11/09/1939.

Armed Forces: At the time of the Second World War, the armed forces of Saudi Arabia had changed little since the time of the First World War. The majority of troops were camel-raiding bedouin tribal levies, called-on in time of war or serious emergency. These troops were very experienced at desert warfare and survival, but their equipment was immensely outdated while their loyalty was also at times questionable. These desert warriors were employed frequently in the Saudi wars of aggression of the 1920's (against Hejaz and Asir) and 1930's (against North Yemen), but they were being increasingly more replaced by western-armed regular troops. In the 1940's, the total number of levies ready to go to war at the king's call was ~ 15 000. At the same time, the regulars numbered only a few thousand personnel and performed mostly policing and other security functions. These regular troops were much better armed than the levies and were garrisoned all over the country at forts and major cities and towns. The air force was in the embryonic phase of development.

SYRIA,
Population: 2 750 000 (in 1938), 3 068 000 (in 1947). Borders with (during WWII) Turkey, Iraq, Transjordania, Palestine, and Lebanon. It also has access to the Mediterranean Sea.
Area: 185 180 squared kilometers.
Capital City: Damascus
Overview: The movement for Syria's total independence grew stronger in the 1930's; consequently, a French - Syrian treaty of friendship and alliance was signed on 09/09/1936. The French government recognized Syrian independence but restrained itself from the ratification of the above-mentioned treaty. Following the French surrender in 1940, Syria was placed under Vichy administration. The Germans began to construct military airfields on Syrian soil with the silent approval from General Dentz (the regional French high commissioner), with the aim of supporting a pro-Axis coup in nearby Iraq. These airfields located at Damascus, Palmira, and Rayak (the latter in Lebanon) were already up-and-running by the first half of 1941.
Armed Forces: In late 1930's Syrian military units numbered around 8 000 personnel; the army was made up of seven battalions of infantry (Bataillons du Levant), two squadrons of line cavalry, 15 squadrons of light cavalry, three light mounted-mechanized desert warfare companies (Compagnies Legeres du Desert), three sapper companies, and a single unit of artillery. After the defeat of France in 1940, all Syrian troops were placed under strict Vichy control and the following year they took part in engagements against British forces that were stationed in the region.

“Schulz, that is wonderful. Exactly what I needed.”
“No problem. The Abwehr did send it this morning.”
Ramcke reads the short reports once again. Then he has to make up his mind. Is it feasible to attack Iraq and Arabia through Turkey? Even if the Turks will not co-operate?

Kagemusha

09-12-2006, 17:12

This is great information indeed.:2thumbsup: Sometimes the moment of clarity just hits poor old Kage´s head. We have problem with Greece and its only matter of time when we have a problem with SU. How about if we create a solution on problem with Creece and tie Soviet Union in the Axis a whole new way by feeding their greed for easy pickings?This solution would also tie us on the Mid eastern Oil.And also a new possible attack route to Egypt or Russia.

The Key is Turkey. We should attack Turkey. The Russians couldnt resist another Poland scenario.Also Creeks would join us also if we promise them land from the Eastern Agean Sea and maybe also on the coast of Turkey. If nothing else they would make great occupation forces. Also im sure we could attract the Bulgarians to join with lot less. This would diminish the grib of British on Creeks and also would give us a pretext to order the Italians not to mess up with Creeks. We could take Bosphorus and that way open up an invasion route on the soft belly of Soviet Union via Black Sea. Also then we could link up with the Vichy´s France areas of Syria and Lebanon. That would drop in our pocket almost automatically. And also create an possibility to take the Iraq oilfields from the British. Turkey would be optimal place to use Fallschirmjäger becouse of its limited road capacity. In cooperation with Gebirgsjäger and Wermacht the Turkish army wouldnt stand a chance,with Russians attacking simultaneously from Caucasus,no chance. I think we should show this idea to our superiors soon.This attack would have large amount of benefits for us.:bow:

Keba

09-12-2006, 17:31

I agree with Kage, an attack on Turkey would work best. The terrain is difficult, yes, but supply lines would be short (at least, for our allies). With air supremacy and the ground troops, the Turks would quickly fall apart.

Greece would most likely be interested, if we throw in guarantees to the deal, and their troops would be useful in occupying the territory, better than German soldiers (whom we need more). The Soviets will, of course, want parts of the territory bordering the Black Sea (which they did want ... but couldn't get), something we can give, as the Axis will nevertheless retain the Bosphorus. Bulgaria, I'm not sure of ... they might be interested, but then again, they might not, there is little for them to gain in the invasion.

Once Turkey has fallen, Iraq will likely rebel against the Brits (historically, it did), Syria and Lebanon will almost certainly join, and we will have free reign on the Mid East and the Eastern Med (especially since we can land paras on Cyprus from Turkey). Considering the anti-Jewish sentiments of Germany and the locals in Palestine, we will get them on our side as well. Persia I am not sure of, but they will likely see who is winning the war and eventually join. Add to that, Barbarossa will be a lot easier ... we will be able to strike from two fronts.

The attack is also likely to draw British troops away from North Africa, as they rush to aid the Turks. The already stretched North Africa force would have to fight on two fronts ... three soon, as Japan will begin advancing into Burma.

King Kurt

09-13-2006, 12:48

While an attack in this area is a good avenue to explore, shouldn't we have a bit of a reality check here. Turkey has a not insignificant army, navy and airforce. No match, it is true for the German armed forces, but we do not have currently a common border from which to launch an invasion. A couple of thousand paratroops will not sucessfully invade turkey. So to invade we must work with allies - allies who are not currently fully paid up members of the Axis. The element of surprise is certainly not with us for such an adventure.
I think something in Syria looks more likely - apparently we have bases developing there, let's put some impetus behind these, garrison them with the paras and then start operations in the area with a view to fermenting unrest.:2thumbsup:

Kagemusha

09-13-2006, 15:39

King.~:) We could use Bulgaria and Creece as concentration areas.We are already allied with Hungary and Romania,so we can transport as many men through their railroads as we wish.

King Kurt

09-13-2006, 16:25

Kage - I take your point - i suppose mine is that an attack on Turkey requires a full on military operation and also requires a significant amount of diplomatic work to enable us to gather a large enough force to complete the task. The use of Greek troops would be highly provcative - they had been at each other's throats for years - and the Turkish army has a reputation for toughness, especialy when defending their homeland. I just wonder if it would be easier to get Turkey on our side through diplomacy or a coup than by military adventure - after all we only want Turkey as a route to the Middle East, we are not interested in the resources of Turkey in particular.:2thumbsup:

Kagemusha

09-13-2006, 16:56

Yes those are good points King. This is a grand plan which needs atleast an Army sized formation to be succesfull .We know that Hitler loves grand plans.So maybe we could actully get this on his table.About Turkey as Ally.I think the fear of Russians would prevent them to allow our troops to move through their country.+ This plan would make Creeks our allies.Which would be very benefitial. :bow:

Franconicus

09-13-2006, 21:20

Kage,

How do you think the Soviets will react?

By the way, if you talk about the Creeks, do you mean that Ameican native tribe? Excellent light cavalry, by the way :laugh4:

Kagemusha

09-13-2006, 21:35

Kage,

How do you think the Soviets will react?

By the way, if you talk about the Creeks, do you mean that Ameican native tribe? Excellent light cavalry, by the way :laugh4:

The best way would be to attack together with the Soviets.Create another "Poland invasion".We are still allied with them arent we.This would also take of some of the Soviet pressure away from Romania there are benefits for both us and them on Invasion like this. Im sorry about the Creeks~:( The english word for them is just too damn hard for poor Kage, maybe i should start using the Finnish word for them : Kreikkalaiset.~:wave:

Franconicus

09-15-2006, 14:36

Student will return tomorrow and Ramcke decides that he and his team will work all night long. He has to make a good impression to cover some mistakes he had made.

Ramcke decides to make a proposal for a raid through Turkey. He thinks Hitler will like that. Maybe Göring will like it too. And Keitel will love it, because this would be an operation with a focus on tanks. Ramcke leaves it to the team to get more data.

However, there is still another open issue. Keitel adviced him to make a statement about the situation from the English. Well, Ramcke knows something about their fleet strength, their army strenght at Gibraltar and Malta, even at Egypt. However, he must have a clear analysis about their strategic problems.

Tasks for the weekend:

1) Find out and discuss the English position in the Mediterranian.
2) The first part of the story is coming to an end. If you have any further proposals, now it is time to talk about them!

AggonyDuck

09-15-2006, 16:12

Well basically England has a rather interesting position. It controls both exits of the Mediterranean Sea, but Italy controls the small straits south of Sicily with airpower.

England only has one small base in the Western Mediterranean, that is Gibraltar. It is a highly strategic naval base, that essentially controls the Strait of Gibraltar and allows for power projection in the Western Mediterranean Sea and Western North Africa.

The real English force is on the eastern side of the Meditteranean, with Egypt, Palestine and Cyprus forming a strong base for operations in the Middle East and North Africa.

In the center of the Mediterranean the British have a small naval base of Malta, that is perfect for interdicting Italian supply lines. Supply is everything in North Africa, so our goal should be to keep our supply lines secure, while trying to cut off the British supply. So we need to eliminate Malta early on, while it's strategic importance is still not evident.

The greatest strategic problem of the Brits is their supply lines. Most of their supplies have to be shipped from Britain and then go around Africa, greatly extending their supply lines. Only heavily escorted high-priority convoys go through the Mediterranean Sea. So we need to do everything in our power to destroy British supply convoys and supply dumbs.

For destroying the British supply we might want to use interdiction from air, small motorized raiding forces (a la LRDG), small scale Fallschirmjäger raids and submarines operating in the Southern Atlantic and the Indian Ocean. For the last one we need naval bases though, which perhaps Portugal or Vichy might be persuaded to offer us. Also the capture of Gibraltar would offer us with a perfect base for submarine operations against convoys for Egypt and India. The real problem is the fact that we don't have enough submarines to both maintain an undersea blockade and cut off the British supply lines.

Keba

09-15-2006, 16:57

During WWII, the British Empire also deployed forces from India to North Africa ... their main problem is supplying reinforcements. The locals are not particularly reliable, esepcially with the troubles in the area immediately before the war. India is loyal, and the troops from there reliable ... but they are in short supply, even moreso with the Japanese advance through China and as their ambitions in Asia become evident.

About the only group they can rely on are the Iraqis, and even they are showing signs of siding with the Axis over the British.

However, British equipment is, at least somewhat, superior to that of the Italians, and their morale is better. They also know the area well, and have experienced commanders. Thus, it is vital that these advantages be taken away. The attack on Turkey will force the British to split their forces in order to prevent a pincer manouver. However, as things stand, they lack the manpower for that.

Such a situation could be of advantage, especially if coupled with the taking of Malta, as the British are likely to attempt to reinforce North Africa ... it is important for the war effort. That means that they will likely risk running through the Med in order to provide the troops and equipment in time, and that means that our forces will be able to rip them apart at their leasure.

The Brits cannot hope to hold their own on two fronts, history has show that they barely managed one front (against a capable commander, and that was later, after the Brits recieved reinforcements).

The British Navy ... now that is a different matter. The Mediterranean fleet is inferior to the Italian one (overall, the Italians have better equipment), however, again, they have the advantage in nerve and skill, despite using out-dated ships. But, the Axis air power, if properly employed (and especially if based on Crete) has a fair chance of taking away their ability to cause trouble. Should Malta fall, it would also cut the fleet off from the Atlantic and the majority of their Navy. The possibility of the forces stationed in India arriving is always a possibility, but those ships are few and even more outdated than the Mediterranean fleet. Additionally, cutting the Med in half would also allow a later use of the French fleet, once the war has moved on from the Med and the Italians have gained some nerve.

Air power ... low to none. They shouldn't be much of a problem in that regard. However, the advance in Turkey will have to be fast, otherwise the Ploesti oil-fields come under risk, and until we hold the Mid-East oil-fields, we must be espeically careful, as they are pretty much our only supplier of oil.

AggonyDuck

09-17-2006, 12:55

Should Malta fall, it would also cut the fleet off from the Atlantic and the majority of their Navy. The possibility of the forces stationed in India arriving is always a possibility, but those ships are few and even more outdated than the Mediterranean fleet. Additionally, cutting the Med in half would also allow a later use of the French fleet, once the war has moved on from the Med and the Italians have gained some nerve.

Taking Malta doesn't cut the Mediterranean in two. Malta is a minor base compared to Sicily, that really only serves a purpose for the British. Sicily allows us to "cut" the Mediterranean Sea in two with airpower, but a strong British taskforce can still force its way through.

Franconicus

09-25-2006, 12:21

Chapter 25 – Student’s return
July 2nd – 4th, 1940

Student is back. However, he seems to be busy all the time. Ramcke is not able to set up a meeting.

His report is finally assuming shape. The proposal for an assault to the oil fields in Middle East is filled with some information. However, the analysis of the weak points of the English is still very thin.

July 4th Student is on a meeting. However, at 2 pm Ramcke’s phone rings and Student adjutant and calls him to Student’s office. With mixed emotions Ramcke sets off.

Student is already waiting. He does not flog a dead horse. Without a welcome he snarls at Ramcke:

“Ramcke, what the hell is going on here? How did you get the idea to go to Keitel?”

“Well, General Keitel asked me to”

“… and you did not have anything better to do than to go to him and give him a report? What did you tell him?”

“Err, we talked about my trip, Sir. However, he had already known everything I told him.”

“Did you talk about the Italians?”

“Yes, Sir, if my memory serves.”

“Did you know that the Italians offered us help for the air war against England?”

“Keitel mentioned it, I guess!”

“Keitel supports the idea and he says that an expert from the Luftwaffe advised him. Göring exploded. Kesselring is furious. He said he would rather call off the operation than playing watchdog for the Italians. Didn’t Keitel ask you about your opinion?”

“Err, now that you mention it, well, yes, Sir, he did.”

“I guess you told him that the idea is bullshit?”

“Well, not exactly. Actually I … , I said that the idea was worth considering.”

“You said what?”

“Well I said that maybe in return we could offer some help to the Italians.”

“Unfortunate! Göring will court-martial you! You better evade Göring or you are going to be executed! You have to leave Berlin. I send you to Stettin. There you can pass your para training. Finish your report and get ready to leave tomorrow!”

Student makes a sign that the meeting is over.

Ramcke goes back to his office. He hardly remembers the last time he received a tingler like that. He orders his team to finish the report and starts to back his bag. After half an hour he receives the marching orders. Well, it will be good to be back in a combat unit.

Late in the afternoon his phone rings and when he takes the earpiece an Oberstleutnant from the supreme command tells him to come immediately.
“Damned! Is this a deja vue?” Ramcke says to himself. He goes to Student’s office, but the secretary tells him that the general is at a meeting with Göring. Although he rather avoids seeing Göring Ramcke goes to his office, too. However, Göring’s adjutant tells him that the Reichsmarschall may not be bothered. Ramcke tries to explain that he has an urgent issue; in vain.

It’s no use! He has an order from the supreme command and he cannot get in contact with his superior. He sighs! He has the feeling that he is doing the same mistake twice, but he sees no alternative. Student always uses to say: “A Fallschirmjäger has to be able to reach the right decision if he cannot get through to his commander.

Half an hour later, Ramcke is at the Supreme Command. A Leutnant tells him to wait. Many high rank officers and generals pass by, but there is no view of Keitel. After 45 minutes of waiting a door opens and Keitel accompanied with other officers leaves the room. Ramcke stands up and goes to him: “General Keitel, good evening, Sir! I have to tell you …”

“Good evening, Oberstleutnant Ramcke! Enter please; he is already waiting for you!”

He pushes Ramcke through the open door. Before he knows what is happening, Ramcke finds himself in a big conference room, alone with another man. The other man turns around; it is Hitler.

“Come closer, Oberstleutnant Ramcke! General Keitel told me that you gathered information for the Mediterranean Theatre.”

Ramcke obeys and soon he finds himself sitting close to Hitler, telling him everything about his trip. Hitler takes time to listen to Ramcke, he interrupts him from time to time to ask some questions. He is especially interested in Gibraltar as well as in any kind of special operations. Then he finally stands up.

“Oberstleutnant Ramcke, your information can be very useful. I received news that the English attacked the French fleet at Oran. We do not have any details, but this can change the whole situation.

If Churchill ordered to sink the French fleet – former allies and now neutral – we have to accept the fact that he is willing to continue the war. Then we have to intensify our operations against the UK. We have to wait how the French react. If the French navy defects, we will have to occupy France completely. Additionally, we have to engage in Northern Africa before the English take over. If the French fight, there may be a chance to get them on our side. This would change the strategic situation in the Med drastically. How do you think the French will react?”

Ramcke curses the fact that he has not cared about France so far. French bases in Northwest Africa and Syria would be very good. However, if they support the British … ?

“Mein Führer, I think that the French are very angry about the English. I think it is the right time to talk to them.”

“You may be right. I think we cannot leave the Mediterranean Sea to the Italians for long. We will have to engage there. What do you think about Libya? How many troops should we send there?” Another weak spot! “Well, we would need enough troops, especially tanks and planes, to beat the English after a short fight. On the other hand there should not be more than we can supply. I guess the army can calculate that better than I can.”
“Right, I will ask Brauchitsch. I tell you what must be done. I will meet with Franco. It is time for him to pay back his bills. Then I will talk to Mussolini. It is also time for the Italians to invest their blood. I will offer him the support of the Fallschirmjäger in case that he will not be put off an invasion of Greece or Yugoslavia. I will order the supreme command to prepare plans for operations on the Balkans and against the Arabian oil fields. However, first of all, I have to take care about the Romania. We cannot allow the Soviets to gain ground there! Oberstleutnant, you can leave now. I assume I will need your service as soon as I arranged things.”

Ramcke returns to the RLM, where he bumped into Student. He tells the general what happened. Student gives a shrug.

“Ramcke, you better leave! I do not know what will happen, but it is definitely better if you leave Berlin!”

An hour later Ramcke sits on the train to Stettin, the training camp of the Fallschirmjäger. There he reports to the commander of the garrison.
“Ah, Ramcke, we are already waiting for you. Here is a telegram from Berlin. It is your promotion. Congratulation, Herr Oberst!”

AggonyDuck

09-25-2006, 16:43

An interesting turn of events and somehow I feel Ramcke has done the planning that well, but I hope that we managed to get some influence with Hitler. Student is definately not pleased with us, so we will have to work to regain his trust in us.

King Kurt

09-26-2006, 12:00

Our hero is in deep water!! The involvement of Hitler probably over rides all other issues. As long as we keep him sweet, then everything else drops into place. He has indicated he will call us again. Kietel's star is obviously in the ascendent, so our hero would be advised to contact Kietel's office - just to let them know where he is. In our spare time, some swotting on France and Romania will be in order.:2thumbsup:

Keba

09-26-2006, 14:52

An interesting development.

On the one hand, Goring absolutely hates us, which could in the long term be damaging. Student, despite being annoyed, still supports us.

On the up side, however, we have scored points with Hitler and Keitel. Big points, I would say. And Hitler is the top, he trumps everyone.

Also, a question ... are we playing the Ramcke? The one who participated in the attack on Crete and later served under Rommel commanding a batallion?

Franconicus

09-26-2006, 14:55

Right! Although his career is developing different

Kraxis

09-28-2006, 23:42

Gah... GAH!

We are creating a rift here. We are antagonizing our immediate superiors for the flimsy and only momentary support of Hitler and Keitel. If we get too much into Hitlers graces at the cost of Göring or Student we might end up Generaloberst but with no command.

We should inform Student that we aren't in this for politics, we will say what we find to be the most prudent military action. So we couldn't care less about Göring feeling he is babysitting the Italians, he should however think on the considerable influence he would gain from a couple of succesfull combatjumps at vital spots in the Med. It should come out favourably.

We should stay clear of Keitel and Hitler. They will ask on things we know nothing of, such as armoured forces, supply, the French and similar things. Besides getting too intimate might antagonize those who were supposed to gain Hitler's favour with this.

Franconicus

11-16-2006, 08:45

Chapter 26 – Training Camp
July 5th – October 30th, 1940

Training is hard and in the beginning Ramcke does not know how to stand it. His fellows are only half as old as he is, even the supervisor could be his sons. Ramcke fights it out and the other soldiers learn to respect that old man with the epaulets of an Oberst. They start calling him “Papa Ramcke”.

Although the training is hard, the discipline is rather loose, much looser than in the army or navy. However, these boys are great guys, like the three Blücher brothers, descendants of the famous Feldmarschall Blücher. They are full of idealism and zest for action. They ache to assault England and show their skills.

Ramcke never joins their daydreams. He recalls the enthusiasm of other young and idealistic great boys. Shattered now in the fields of Flanders … .

Their daily life is rather peaceful. War is far away. The daily reports in the radio indicate that victory is near. There are little effects at home. The English send some bomb raids, but the combat strength is so low, that the disturbances are bigger than the casualties.

In September 1940 radio reports of the Italian invasion in Africa. In the beginning the progress seems to be good; then they stop to rearrange the supply lines. In October the Italians invade Greece. Even the reports on the radio indicate that these operations are not very successful.

End of October the training is finished. Ramcke is a full skilled Fallschirmjäger. He has been thinking about the future for a while. Now it is time to make a decision.

1) Write to Student and ask him for transfer to the Luftlande Division. There you would be a member of the Army again, and would avoid further trouble with Göring.
2) Contact Keitel. He likes you and he could post you at the General Staff.
3) Go the Berlin and face up to the differences you have with Student and Göring. Running away is not your style.

King Kurt

11-16-2006, 10:04

This is a tough decision - after some consideration, I think we should contact Keitel - option b. Our last meeting with Student was not good and he has obviously sent our hero away to appease Goring. Student knows our ability, yet leaves us in this training camp away from where the action is. Better to contact Keitel with an offer of advising on the developing situation in the Med, possibly acting as a mobile military attache. I feel our boats are burned with Student and Goring and it will be better to attach our hero to another rising star.
Finally - good to see our hero back Franc:2thumbsup:

Kagemusha

11-16-2006, 10:13

Id say option 3. We dont know what has happened during our training. If our superiors are fed up with us im sure they will transfer us on another assignment under other superiors.

AggonyDuck

11-16-2006, 18:17

Definately option three. Better that we show some spine now. :yes:

Rodion Romanovich

11-16-2006, 18:36

I'd say option 3 as well!

Good to see this interactive running again ~:)

King Kurt

11-17-2006, 10:02

I definately seem to be swiming against the tide here!!

My reasoning behind ruling out a and c is that, on looking back over the last couple of chapters, Student, presumably under the influence of Goring, wants nothing to do with us. He sent us away from Berlin, he was never available for meetings - which was why we ended up seeing Keitel before he knew what was happening. Our hero has sat in this training camp for several months and has heard nothing from Student - so it is my view he has washed his hands of us. Moreover, on what basis would we travel to berlin to confront Student - our current orders are to be here at the training base - to travel to berlin without permission might give student the excuse to court marshall us and kick us out.
Our hero, in my mind, has ot hitch his star to another waggon - and that is Keitel, especially as he has such close links to Hitler. The growing conflict in the Med give us an excuse to contact him with an offer of making best use of our background knowledge of the area.:2thumbsup:

Keba

11-17-2006, 14:05

Option 2

I'd have to agree with Kurt, we should go for Keitel. Besides, our orders are clear, we are to stay in camp, leaving for Berlin would be even more damaging than so far.

And, being in Keitel's staff would be a great influence. We could improve the status of the FJ through the Army, after all, if the Army request FJ operations, then it would be very useful.

We can't do much about Goring so far, but with time, we could see his fall from grace with the Battle for Britain.

Franconicus

11-17-2006, 17:03

Just one comment: The training course is over. Ramcke is supposed to contact Student for new orders now. Driving to Berlin would not be refusal to obey orders.

Franconicus

11-22-2006, 16:43

Chapter 27– Back on the command bridge
November 4th, 1940

Before he goes back to Berlin, he parties with his buddies the way Fallschirmjäger do. Then he drives to the capitol, with mixed emotions and a heavy head.

At Berlin he goes straight to Student’s office.

“Ah, Ramcke! Where have you been so long?”

Ramcke avoids reminding Student that he disappeared due to his orders.

“There is a new directive of the Führer. Keitel distributed it yesterday. There is a meeting of the branches at the HQ this evening. I want you to come along with me.”

“What does that directive say, General?”

“Well, it analyzes the strategic situation and gives new goals. Here is a copy. Read it! I will pick you up at half past five. And do not forget, it is strictly confidential!”

Ramcke goes back to his office. He is welcomed by Schulz.
“Oh Schulz, I have to join a meeting with the commanders of the branches this evening. I have to read this directive and I have only two and a half hours.”

“Hitler’s new directive? Don’t worry! I will give you a summary.”

Ramcke looks surprised. Schulz laughs.

“That is what adjutants are made for, isn’t it? Well, analysis starts with England. The attacks against the French forces made it clear that they are not willing to accept any peace offer. Therefore, the air and sea strikes against the islands were started. Very successful, so far. The UK will have a hard winter this year. I can give you more details later. The English are more or less neutralized, but our attacks may not be able to make them surrender. Hitler concludes that it is necessary to hit them at another place.

The war in the Mediterranean Sea is not going very well. The performance of the Italian Navy is bad, very bad. The Royal Navy is getting more and more aggressive. The operations in Northern Africa are stopped, although the Italians outnumber the English. And Greece showed that the Italians are not able to defeat a second class army. Now English troops landed at Crete and Hitler has decided to interfere. The English threaten the oil fields at Romania. And Hitler fears that another defeat may cost Mussolini’s head.

The situation on the Balkans is much better than it was some months ago. Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary have agreed on a proposal of Hitler. All three are more or less allies of Germany now. Yugoslavia will have to join, too. Therefore, the boundaries for an operation against Greece are very good. However, the presence of German troops at the Balkans does not improve the relationship to Russia. Molotov will come to Berlin this month. Then we will know their position.

There is a new player in the game. The USA set up a huge armament program. Additionally, their support for England is more and more obviously. They even threaten the neutral countries in case they cooperate with us. Hitler thinks that it will take two years until the US will be able to deploy their full strength. Then Germany has to be ready.”

“Right! What are the conclusions?”

“Hitler already ordered the army to prepare an invasion of Greece and to set up an expedition force to support the Italians in Northern Africa. Additionally he defined new strategic goals and asked the staff to prepare the operation plans.

Goals are:

Offensive protection of the Romanian oil fields
Defeat of the British forces in the Mediterranean
Capture of the Arabian oil fields
Construction of a strong defensive position at Northwestern Africa.
All these objectives have to be achieved by the end of 1941. There may only stay small contingents for defense. The main part of the army has to be ready for new operations in spring 1942.”
“Whow! That is what I call big thinking. How is the situation with Spain and France?”

“Franco agreed to join the war, but he has not decided when. The French are angry against the English. They may join us, too, but they want to have guarantees, that they will profit from this cooperation. Laval is willing to cooperate; Petain’s position is unclear, though. Well, the weakness of the Italians at least makes it easier to negotiate with these two countries.”

“Alright, I think I dig it. Anything else I need to know?”

“No, not now. I think most of the participants of the meeting did not read the directive completely.”

The meeting takes place at Wünsdorf, the HQ of the OKW near Berlin. Keitel moderates, Jodl from the Führungsstab is there as well as Brauchitsch and Raeder. The Luftwaffe is represented by Kesselring and Student.

After an introduction there is a dispute about the appropriate strategy to achieve Hitler’s objectives. Several proposals are made and discussed. Then there is a break.

Student takes Ramcke aside: “Ramcke, what is your opinion. Which strategy would you suggest?”

Ramcke thinks twice.

a) There is the proposal of the Navy. They want to invade Spain and Gibraltar first, then cross the strait to Northern Africa to secure the western flank. Then attack from Libya against Egypt and the Middle East. This would have the benefit, that the war in the Atlantic would be supported and that the English would loose the western entrance of the oceans very soon. However, it would take long to get to the oil fields, and – as an army officer said – you would have to carry everything through the Libyan Desert.

b) Another proposal is to ignore the western area for the moment and to strengthen the position at Libya by taking Malta first. Then an operation against Egypt and the Middle East and finally the operation against Northwest Africa.

c) Brauchitsch made the proposal to concentrate on the Eastern Med. There are the most important objectives, and the army will be at Greece anyway. During the Greece invasion the army could cross the Bosporus, and then assault the English positions in the Middle East. A variation of this plan could be a kind of island hopping, from Greece mainland to Crete, them to Cyprus and finally to Syria.

d) Finally, an idea of Jodl, simultaneous operations against Gibraltar on the western side and Syria / Suez on the other side. This would split the German forces; however, the English would be forced to split their forces, too.

DemonArchangel

11-22-2006, 17:36

My suggestion would be a split attack on Malta and Gibraltar initially, with Fallschirmjaeger (did we get the equipment like the recoilless rifles that I had previous requisitioned?) and local forces. Most of the fighting power will be provided by Spanish and Italian troops in those locations, freeing up the bulk of the Wehrmacht to take Greece. Later, the Fallschirmjaeger can take Crete and the Mediterranean Islands. We can worry about Turkey in a few years.

Also, perhaps we can talk to the Kriegsmarine about forming a marine raiding unit like the Italians are. The more damage done to British ships, especially in Gibraltar and Alexandria, the better.

Right now, we need to prop up Italy, and instill them with some decent equipment and leadership. It's clear that Mussolini cannot handle this war on his own. Make sure to send German advisers, especially to the Italian fleet and army, and try to get the Italians the latest in infantry and mechanized technology.

We need at least a Panzerkorp with added artillery and aerial support, if not more in North Africa, while the British are still weak. Rapidly seizing Alexandria and the Suez from the landward side would deal a crippling blow to the British fleet in the region, thus allowing the Eastern Mediterranean campaign to end far more quickly. But in order to do this, Malta must be seized and converted into a supply base, in order to facilitate the orderly transfer of supplies.

If the argument comes up that Rommel's small expeditionary force would be adequate (from both the AI and my fellow players), just remember this this following quote from Guderian: "Don't tickle, SMASH."

AggonyDuck

11-22-2006, 17:53

I believe that in the end fighting in North Africa is all about supplies. That's why I suggest that we follow the Navy plan. The loss of Gibraltar increases supply distances for the Brits and with the loss of Gibraltar there is no other British naval base in either the Western Mediterranean Sea and no other Atlantic bases in the vicinity. Additionally Spain would serve as an excellent base for submarines, out of reach from British airpower.

Anyway I suggest that we choose optionA., because as I said earlier everything has to be shipped to North Africa, so attacking and severing supply lines should be our main priority. Defeating the British will be a lot easier when they're low on ammunition and equipment.

King Kurt

11-23-2006, 10:03

I believe the best option is b - attack Malta as a prelude to operations in Libya. The Gib option depends on the Spanish - and we know all the problems there coupled with the problems of taking Gib. You then still have to resolve the problem of French North Africa as well before getting to the areas we really want to control Suez etc. The supply arguement is not relevant, as supplies came in through Suez anyway - Gib was only important for supplying Malta.
The other good reason for the malta option is that it ties in the Italians and supports Mussoloini - our key ally in the med.
The other 2 options are non starters - one splits our forces, which will be small to start with and the other annoys turkey and brings Russia down on our necks - when we are not ready for it.:2thumbsup:

Franconicus

11-23-2006, 10:17

“Hitler already ordered the army to prepare an invasion of Greece and to set up an expedition force to support the Italians in Northern Africa. Additionally he defined new strategic goals and asked the staff to prepare the operation plans.

Goals are:

Offensive protection of the Romanian oil fields
Defeat of the British forces in the Mediterranean
Capture of the Arabian oil fields
Construction of a strong defensive position at Northwestern Africa.

All these objectives have to be achieved by the end of 1941. There may only stay small contingents for defense. The main part of the army has to be ready for new operations in spring 1942.”

This is the important part.

Please check if your proposal are supporting these goals. Esp. forming special navy forces may not support the tight time frame.

Additional remark:
The operations to conquer Greece and to support the Italians at Libya are already planned. You only have a minor influence here. For example you can change the Libyan operation from defensive to offensive and make it stronger. Or you can add to the Greek scenario the option: cross the Bosporus and build a bridgehead there.

SwordsMaster

11-23-2006, 14:24

I think D. By increasing the distance supplies need to be carried to the mediterranean you expose the british ships to attrition and several thousand miles of submarine warfare from the spanish bases in Spain and the Canaries. Spanish Africa is also great for subs. This will:

a.- Reduce the british strength in the mediterranean, indirectly letting the italian navy do the dirty work for us.

b.- Strengthen our position in northwest Africa.

There are no major british forces there, and Spain should provide enough hands to dig and fortify the important points. Hence the lack of need for concentrating the forces. Gibraltar is a bottleneck so it will not make a whole lot of difference either.

The majority of our force should be used in the Eastern Med against Greece, and then Syria, Iraq, Suez, and finally Arabia, and then hop across the Red Sea as the italians press from the North to surround and eliminate the brits in Egypt.

If, by closing both Suez and Gibraltar we manage to trap as many RN vessels as possible in the Mediterranean, the easier Sealion will be.

AggonyDuck

11-23-2006, 16:37

The supply arguement is not relevant, as supplies came in through Suez anyway - Gib was only important for supplying Malta.

It it is actually relevant. Taking Gibraltar would remove a base for British ASW forces, while giving us a submarine base for interdicting convoys going around Africa. Most of the British supplies will have to come from Britain, so interdicting these supply convoys will further our cause.

King Kurt

11-24-2006, 10:14

It it is actually relevant. Taking Gibraltar would remove a base for British ASW forces, while giving us a submarine base for interdicting convoys going around Africa. Most of the British supplies will have to come from Britain, so interdicting these supply convoys will further our cause.
In 1940/41 Gib is a relatively minor base - hence the relatively small garrison. It only became important when malta became important. The only advantage in taking Gib is that it would make it slightly easier to get U Boats into the Med. It is obvious that Hitler's focus is on the easten Med - greece, Libya etc so we should go with the flow. The most effective "small" change we can propose is to use the airbourne troops to take malta - it boosts the overall plan and more importantly would be an ideal chance to show the real ability of the airbourne arm. In the real WW2 that opportunity came in Crete, but it was a Phyrric victory and the airbourne spent the rest of the war as high grade infantry. Malta is a better chance to gain creedence and fame for the airbourne. Gib is too fortified and is not a suitable target for our airbourne troops and Suez is too far away from any relief troops.

Franconicus

11-24-2006, 12:07

So we have:

DA: Malta and Gibraltar first

AD: Gibraltar and the Western Area first.

KK: Malta and Libya first

SM: West, Middle and East simultaneously

I think I wait at least for the votes of Kagemusha and Kraxis.

Until then think again about the strategic goals and the schedule.

P.S. You can plan big scale operations in all three directions. Only boundary is that the invasion of Greece and the support of Libya is already planned. You cannot stop this, only slightly modify it.

We can worry about Turkey in a few years.
That is not acceptable to Hitler. You have to get all goals within one year. After this time he will use the troops for other goals. End of 1941 German troops have to control the Mediterranean from the Northwest to Suez including Arabia and Iraq. Nothing less is acceptable. Nothing less would make the Brits give in.

Rodion Romanovich

11-24-2006, 17:56

Difficult choice, but the only thing I can say for sure is that Malta should be taken ASAP. What should be done afterwards is a matter of discussion. Invading Spain seems like a bad idea, but Gibraltar is valuable. I'd suggest taking Malta ASAP, then going for the Jodl plan, however where the western Mediterranean plan should have no other objective than taking Gibraltar and Tangiers (sp?). The eastern Mediterranean plan should initially be directed at island hopping. I don't believe it's good to attack Turkey at this point. I don't believe the island hopping will be able to secure Crete faster than we can secure Gibraltar, so there should be a new evaluation of the plans once Gibraltar has been taken in the western advance, or we've completed the conquest of Crete. Attack on Malta is first target and this should be speeded up as much as possible - there must be no further delays! Attack on Greece should come next, when the British believe we will strike Gibraltar. During the attack on Greece, at the moment when the blitz has crucially broken the English-Greek frontline, the FJs should be transferred to take Gibraltar together with heavy air bombardment. If possible, some smoke shells for artillery should be slightly rebuilt to be used and dropped by the bombers (this should be possible to do in a month - after all we're at war!). Also try to see if smaller smoke shells can be made practical to drop together with the FJs for them to drop with more precision. Smoke shells and explosives is the key to taking the rock, I believe, and if Spain prevents usage of land artillery the FJs and planes will have to bring these things.

Rodion Romanovich

11-24-2006, 18:00

By the way, since it's 4th of November, the RN attacked the French fleet at Mers-el-Kebir yesterday. That means we have an excellent opportunity to force the French to accept a base for "defense together against the British", and allow us to station quite a few bombers in the Tangiers area for a while, making bombing of Gibraltar easier. The French aren't really in a position to refuse such an offer at the moment. If this is achieved, we can probably take Gibraltar sooner than expected. But let's concentrate on Malta first - no more delays if possible!

Kagemusha

11-25-2006, 14:14

Lets see.To choose from the options i would mostly agree with Jodl: d) Finally, an idea of Jodl, simultaneous operations against Gibraltar on the western side and Syria / Suez on the other side. This would split the German forces; however, the English would be forced to split their forces, too. We should use our strengths which means that we should concentrate on land based Operations. But i think we could pull of the Assault on Malta. This would be the Operation which would suit the best to use our Fallschirmjäger troops.Ok lets then go little bit on detail about the three directions:

Western theatre.Now that Franco have accepted to join the War, he will allow the Wermacht to pass into his land and i suggest that the most plausible plan to take Gibraltar would be the plan i posted earlier on this thread.Which is the Historical plan made by OKW.

In the direction of Malta we should carry on an Operation against Malta with a mixed force with Italians.Here we should deploy the Fallschirmjäger troops.After we have taken Malta we should deploy a German force to Libya to support the Italians fighting there. But the weight of our forces should be in the East.This would keep Italians happy.And by deploying to East to enter middle-East,the Italians wouldnt be in our way complicating military affairs with their incompetence which they would do in Libya if we would deploy majority of forces aimed against Suez there.

In the East i think the safest way to Suez and Middle-East is via Turkey. Molotov is soon to arrive in Berlin and we should suggest him an joint attack against Turkey like we did against Poland. I think that the Soviets would be more then willing to grab land from Northern Turkey,becouse they have had their eye in there for some good while now. Also im positive that the Soviet Union is not looking for conflict with us at this point. So this plan would benefit both of us and enhance our relations with the Soviets. We shouldnt fight the Soviets before we have already used all their potential against our other enemies. The island hopping would be dangerous and hazardous.When we can take the safe land route instead by cooperating with our allies. Also the last point to support this plan is that Turkey could yeld to an political pressure against the combined power of us and SU also their army is considered weak at this point so incase we would have to invade they wont posses a significant threat. If we take Turkey the whole middle-east lies ahead open to our armies and the English simply doesnt have enough forces to put up a significant fight,since they are already fighting the Italians in Libya.

DemonArchangel

11-27-2006, 17:43

I still think we should concentrate our forces in Libya and smash through Egypt, with Alexandria and the Suez as our goals. It would make taking the Eastern Mediterranean so much easier with the British Navy largely out of the way, and would make for easier submarine warfare in the Atlantic, as well as being able to trap British forces in a pincer movement if the bulk of the Wehrmacht moves through Turkey and into the Middle East.

By the way, try to realize that the Turkish are a fanatical group of people, so you're going to have problems occupying that place for a LONG time. I suggest motorized Gebirgsjaeger units for the advance across rocky Anatolia.

(Basically, what I'm advocating here is a Deep Operation, multiple, highly coordinated tactical operations at the same time to ensure the collapse of enemy C&C and defenses.)

Keba

11-27-2006, 18:37

A tight schedule has been given for this operation.

I'd have to go for D) simultaneous strike on Gibraltar and Suez/Syria

We don't have the time to stabilize our situation, though the advantage is that we don't have to worry about winter quarters. The Gibraltar will allow us U-boat operations along the coast of Africa deep into the Atlantic as well as eventually getting the Italians Navy out of the Med.

However, Gibraltar alone is not worth the time that would have to be spent on it, therefore, it would be best to open up a second front. The Brits are stretched thin in Africa already, and with the Japanese likely to be advancing on India soon, it will only get worse for them. So, we have to split them up, and take out as many as possible in as short a time as possible.

Greece can be handled easily enough ... should our other operations be successful, then the Greeks will be forced to face the fact that the British are losing in Africa, cutting them off from any help.

Franconicus

12-08-2006, 10:18

Chapter 28– The planning group
November 5th, 1940

The discussion does not come to an end. Therefore Keitel decides to end it and to continue the discussion in a smaller circle, just Jodl, and one agent of each branch. He also asks Ramcke to join the planning group.
Student and Ramcke drive back to the RLM. They report Göring about the meeting and tell him about Keitel’s request. Göring shouts: “One thing I tell, in this planning group the Luftwaffe will not be represented by an ordinary Oberst!”
At home Ramcke wonders if Keitel will insist on his request and how this all would end. This night he dreams about military operations in the Mediaterranean Sea, air attacks against cruisers, tank raids across the desert, mountain infantry at Syria. Hitler’s vision is intriguing. The goals can only be achieved by a new, giant Blitz campaign.
Next morning he is called to the office of Student. “Ramcke, you will join the planning group.”
“Well, I thought Göring did not want to have an ordinary Oberst …”
Student smiles: “You are right. However, Göring decided to promote you last night. Right after a phone call with Keitel. You are Generalleutnant, now. Congratulations! You better hurry! The meeting starts at 11:00; Göring would not want you to wear the uniform of an ordinary Oberst, would he?”
So Ramcke finds himself as a general in the meeting of the planning group.
A general from the army intelligence gives an update of the political and military situation:
“Even though Franco agreed to join the war, he hasn’t decided when. He has some preconditions – food and oil – that are hard to fulfill. I am sure that he will join us once the English left the Mediterranean and we occupied the oilfields in the Middle East. Right now we may have to do it without or even against Franco.
We know that American diplomats are trying to offer Franco economic help in case he does not support Germany. This is an alarming sign. The negotiations with Franco are coordinated directly by the Führer.
Italy: Mussolini asked for logistic help and new equipment. He refused any military support in Africa. This may change if the Italians get into trouble. Hitler decided to set up a support group, but we will only activate it if the Italians have shown that they are finally willing to fight and to fight according to our proposals.
Balkans: The agreements with Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria are signed. Yugoslavia will enter the pact, too. Russia is not pleased by our engagement. The British are still trying to make an alliance with Yugoslavia, Greece and Turkey.
The British: Our intelligence reports tell us that the English are doing everything to reinforce. There were at least three troop convoys arriving at Suez in October. We think that they shipped one division from India, two tank brigades from the UK, one division from Australia as well as some units from South Africa. We also know that the Queen Mary is on the way from Australia, bringing another Australian division. The RAF is still weak.
The English started to occupy Crete. We suppose that there are several air defense batteries as well as one infantry regiment. We think that the English will soon start to land at the Greece mainland.
Near the Peloponnesus there are currently 3 battleships, 2 carriers, 5 cruisers and 15 destroyers. More cruisers are near Crete. There are engagements with Italian forces. Altogether, the Italian navy does not show any fighting spirit at all. On the other side, the Royal Navy is very aggressive.
The British also enforced the garrison of Malta.”
Ramcke tells the rest of the group that he suggests assaulting Malta as soon as possible. Then there should be an army at Libya, attacking the English front from the west, and another army attacking the English positions from Syria.
After this Konteradrmiral Hans-Hubertus von Stosch explains the view of the navy:
“Well, besides some merchant ships we do not have a lot there. The Italian navy is strong in numbers, but for our operations we cannot rely on them. The Royal Navy is stronger and they are very aggressive. As I hear from Ramcke’s ideas, most of the operations have to be done and supplied across an ocean that is controlled by the Royal Navy. I tell you that this is nonsense. Let’s look at Malta and Africa. We will be able to supply the invasion of Malta. We can also transport a maximum of four tank divisions to Africa and supply them with the help of the Italian transport ships. If we want to have more troops in Africa, we have to reduce the Italian forces there. If we want to invade Egypt, we have to cross the desert. There is only one road, well, not exactly what we call a road, definitely no Autobahn! All supply, water, fuel, food, technical equipment, reinforcements etc. have to be shipped that way. Impossible! Therefore we will have to transport everything along the coast. I tell you that the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force will do everything to cut off this line. They do not have to fight us in the desert; they just have to cut off the supply.
Now to the plan to invade Syria via Crete and Cyprus; I assume that the occupation of the islands will be done by airborne operations. However, the supply will have to be carried across the ocean. And if you want to build an army in Syria, we would have to carry everything right under the eyes of the Royal Navy. This is even more impossible than the Libya option. Once more, they do not have to defeat this army, as long as they can interrupt the supply line.”
Ramcke: “Alright! But what can be done?”
Stosch: “Well, there are two possibilities. First of all, if we control Gibraltar, we can send ships to the Med. I am not talking about combat units. Maybe some submarines and some destroyers, but the main forces are busy in the Atlantic. However, I think we could send more transport ships. This would improve the situation, at least a bit. Maybe we could supply four tank divisions and support their advance to Cairo. Middle East is another story. Sending the supply across the Balkans and the Aegis to Syria is unrealistic. However, we could ship it on the Danube and then across the Black Sea. Although we do not have a navy there, there is no hostile navy, too, that we cannot defeat with our air force. I suggest occupying the Bosporus as fast as possible. We could easily send troops and supply across the strait and then invade the Middle East.”
Ramcke: “Is there anything else the navy can do to support us?”
Stosch: “Not a lot. We could coordinate the raids of our big ships and lure some British ships from the Med. to the Atlantic; at least temporarily.”
General Ritter v. Thoma takes a hand in the discussion: “The army agrees with most of the things said here. We are able to defeat the English army wherever we meet them. However, we do not want to send our armies across an ocean controlled by the Royal Navy. This could end in a disaster. Occupying Malta is a job for the Fallschirmjäger. Maybe we support this with our Luftlandedivision. We are also willing to send four tank divisions to Libya. Less than four would be useless, more would be hard to supply in the desert. If necessary we are also able to assault Gibraltar, with or against the Spaniards. However, the main strike should through Turkey!”
General Hans Geisler, commander of the X. Flieger Korps: “I do not understand the worries of the army and the navy. Let the RN attack our ships, we will teach them a lesson. Our bombers have attacked the British ships very successfully at the Channel. I do not see any reason why we cannot do that in the Mediterranean Sea, too.”
Thoma: “Because the army is not willing to play the bait!”
Jodl: “Gentlemen, before we present a plan to Hitler, we must think about the timing. Time is very critical as far as I see it.”
Ramcke: “The Fallschirmjäger are ready for combat in February. I think the bombers will be ready, too. Let’s say four weeks of bombing to prepare the invasion. Then we could invade Malta in April.”
Thoma: “No, you cannot! In April we will invade Greece. We need all transport planes there. Greece is more important than Malta. You can have the planes in May.”
“When are the Africa forces ready to operate?”
Thoma: “This depends on the political situation. Not before March, I guess.”
Jodl: “When could we cross the Bosporus?”
Thoma: “Either at the beginning of the invasion of Greece, or afterwards. My proposal is May. Then we have roughly two months to reach the Suez. Afterwards we turn east and take Arabia and Iraq. While we occupy the oil fields there, Spain will agree to support the assault of Gibraltar. We cross the strait and occupy Northwestern Africa too. That’s it! Not impossible.”
Stosch: “Couldn’t we assault Gibraltar earlier?”
Thoma: “This is not impossible. We can send two Korps in February. I think that the whole operations will take four, maximum eight weeks. If we have to fight the Spaniards, too, we need three or four tank divisions and some infantry divisions. The operations would take longer of course and the British would have more time to react. I guess three months in total is realistic.”

I Where should be the main strike?
1, Put the focus on the right wing. You may need more than four divisions to conquer Egypt. Therefore, you have to take Gibraltar and Malta first. Then you have the transport capacity to support more than four divisions.
2, Attack on both wings. Four tank divisions are more than enough for the invasion of Egypt, if there is a second operation in the Eastern Med.
2a) Do the island hopping. The Fallschirmjäger and the one airborne division are enough to occupy Syria. They can be air supplied.
2b) Take the route through Turkey. It may take longer, but you can deploy a complete army and supply it.
II What about Malta?
3a) Assault Malta in February. This may cause some problems in Greece.
3b) Assault it in May. There is no need to hurry!
3c) Do not assault it at all. You cannot afford casualties; you’ll need your Fallschirmjäger somewhere else. Malta will be unimportant once you have an army at Syria.

King Kurt

12-08-2006, 12:05

Rodion Romanovich

12-08-2006, 12:43

1. Gibraltar is probably not necessary for victory, however Malta is. Taking Malta will give us control over the line Italian peninsula - Sicily - Malta - Tunisia, which is crucial for protecting our convoys to supply Libya etc. If the Italians allow insertion of troops in Libya, we can take the route from the west towards Egypt and Suez, which should be doable. The reasons for taking Gibraltar would be if we need subs to be able to enter the Med, as well as giving some extra cover to our convoys, but I believe the latter is satisfactory after taking Malta, and the former isn't absolutely necessary. So taking Gibraltar is probably best ignored unless we can get cooperation from France (borrowing air base at Tangiers) or Spain (military passage for a strong artillery supported force). Once Malta is taken, the best bet would be to focus on Libya, if the Italians accept that. I think taking of Crete and the other islands should just be ignored, because they are probably not going to be any useful to the British anyway, especially not if we threaten Egypt and the Suez (that would instead result in trapping them, and our Italian friends could send a large fleet of subs to the south of Crete shortly before we take the Suez... :evil: ). Going through Turkey is IMO not a good idea - we don't need any more enemies than we already have.

Keba

12-08-2006, 13:52

I, 1) Concentrate on the right wing, Gibraltar and Malta.
II, 3b) Attack in May (unless we're talking about taking Crete, in which case, I'd go 3a and go in February).

While the attack in May could give the British time to prepare, I doubt that they will expect an offesnive immediately after the conclusion of such a large scale operation.

Once Malta is taken, the British are effectively cut in half, giving us time to take Gibraltar at leisure, and shortening supply lines to Libya. As things stand, I doubt the Italians will be getting far, and dropping reinforcements would be good.

I'd also argue against going through Turkey at this time, maybe afterward when sufficient resources have been made avaible, but not at this time. The terrain is difficult to say the least, nullifying our advantage in tanks, and is almost made for guerilla warfare. Additionally, we'd be facing a determined enemy on his own terrain. They may not be particularly well equipped, but they'd be a major problem.

Perhaps a division of Turkey with the aid of the USSR might be viable, but not until the engagement in Africa is over.

Franconicus

12-08-2006, 14:11

I think all efforts should be focused on Libya - that is the route to suez and if that falls, the english are defeated. So Malta sooner than later and ignore Syria etc. I also remain firmly convinced on the futility of assaulting Gib - even more so with Spain's reluctance.
So my plan is malta, Libya and the FJ landing round Suez when the army is rolling through Libya.
One question Franc - what is the political view of where Turkey stands? - all this talk of taking the Bosphorus doesn't mention the Turkish army - going by what happened with the Dardenalles in WW1 suggests it would not be a cake walk.:2thumbsup:

Politically: There is a small group of Turkish nationalists, that would like to cooperate with the Germans. However, the Turkish government tries to stay out of the war. They know that they can only loose, regardless wheter they ally with the Germans, Russians or English. All of them want to control the Bosporus. Do not forget that they have a military pact with the English!

The Turkish army is not bad on a WW1 scale. Measured after the experience of our France campaign they lack of planes, AAA, tanks and ATGs. The Turkish fleet and air force are no challange at all.

King Kurt

12-08-2006, 15:04

Just goes to show - we should stay clear of Turkey - the army may not be well equipped but there will be loads of them and they would be well suited for guerilla warfare disrupting supplies etc.:2thumbsup:

Kagemusha

12-08-2006, 15:30

2)B and 3)B .By multiple coordinated strikes we will prevail. Like it was sayed in the meeting.Our problem is not that we wouldnt have enough forces to deploy against the English,but rather we lack areas where to fight them. And by limiting our selves in Libya where we cant support a superior force we would be making a mistake. We should attack Malta in May,becouse at that point the British are already heavily engaged on Creece and will not be in position to enforce Malta more likely they will be withdrawing troops from there to enforce their forces in Creece. About Turkey we should do to Turkey just like we did to Poland.Coordinated strike together with the Russians.

Kraxis

12-08-2006, 18:23

I'm with King Kurt... I would have supported his choice last round as well.

Malta cuts the Med in half. Leaving the British troubled to move about and cause trouble for us. Besides Malta would be perfect to protect our supplies. And equally good at intercepting any fast convoys that attempts to run the gauntlet from Gib.

Gib I think we shold let the Spanish take if they ever decide to do something. Their reluctance is dishertening, and I think rattling the saber will only make them balk even more. We do not need to fight the Spanish in the mountains of Spain. Remember Napoleon, we could face the same problem.

Libya is the prime target. Rommel if properly supported (by Malta) can certainly win... And when/if he takes Tobruk we will have an easier time getting to Suez. Perhaps we can even draw the Royal Navy out and get them pasted by the naval bombers then. All this needs done fast, so to hell with Greece, take Malta as fast as possible. In Greece the British are just splitting their limited forces, while ours are not limited to the same extent (we have the entire Heer behind us going into Greece). So the longer the British are trying to defend Greece (this time they need to go into waters we control), the better for our Libyan operations.

DemonArchangel

12-08-2006, 18:46

Malta first. Hell, we should have seized it in the winter of 1940. The way to the Suez is through Libya and 4 Panzer Divisions with extra artillery and air support should be more than enough to crack British resistance, although at a later date, the Wehrmacht might want to create a marine corps for operations in the Nile Delta.

Anyway, we can delay the invasion of Greece for now, let the Heer concentrate adequate supplies, and German industry build up a better force of planes, tanks, halftracks and trucks.

And please, please don't attack the Turks. They're a scary bunch of people who fight hard.

Kraxis

12-08-2006, 19:40

And please, please don't attack the Turks. They're a scary bunch of people who fight hard.
It is not so much the Turks or their equipment I'm scared of, but their land. It is basically an even more mountainous version of Spain. And Spain is decidedly unsuited for mechanised combat.

Hence we will be sitting in the middle of Anatolia when 1943 comes around.

Kagemusha

12-09-2006, 01:45

And Greece isnt a montanuos land?Or Yugoslavia? How about Norway? Maybe i should play the typical cavalry officer this time and start yelling: What has gone in to you fine German officers?! If you dont believe we cant march through Turkey,how are we then supposed to beat the English,if we cant even move through Anatolia? We should remember that the majority of the German Divisions are still infantry and we have great quality Gebirgsjäger Divisions which can protect the flanks of our mechanized spearhead. Many of you guys have been blabbering about the Oil fields all game long and now when there is a possibility to march into those oil fields you want to take the scenic route.Gah!~;)

Keba

12-09-2006, 11:33

And Greece isnt a montanuos land?Or Yugoslavia? How about Norway?

And that is why those countries had a tiny little, insignificant problem called partisans. Yugoslavia alone, in the later stages of the war, required as many as 250,000 soldiers to garrison it. Greece was a similar problem. Turkey is several times the size of those two, has a larger population, and has less people likely to be friendly towards the occupation. Therefore, it would be an even bigger problem than Yugoslavia which cost Germany a lot (with an average of over 1 train destroyed per day for the duration of the war).

Turkey would be a mistake, a big one.

Kagemusha

12-09-2006, 12:51

And that is why those countries had a tiny little, insignificant problem called partisans. Yugoslavia alone, in the later stages of the war, required as many as 250,000 soldiers to garrison it. Greece was a similar problem. Turkey is several times the size of those two, has a larger population, and has less people likely to be friendly towards the occupation. Therefore, it would be an even bigger problem than Yugoslavia which cost Germany a lot (with an average of over 1 train destroyed per day for the duration of the war).

Turkey would be a mistake, a big one.

Yes and Poland is mostly flat plains and it cost lot more casulties for German occupation forces.This is war not some kind of manouvering contest. If we are moving our forces through Turkey.There are enough greedy neighbours to occupy it.We dont have strategig value for Turkey other then that to get Bosphorus and get through to fight the English and get us an open road to Arabian oilfields. Dear sir´s, we have an orders from Hitler and the goals are:

* Offensive protection of the Romanian oil fields
* Defeat of the British forces in the Mediterranean
* Capture of the Arabian oil fields
* Construction of a strong defensive position at Northwestern Africa.

So do you really think that we are able to achieve both second and third goals by only capturing Malta and attacking from Libya in 1941? Or maybe you want to go to island hopping in Eastern Mediterranian virtually without navy? We havent even opened negotiations with SU and Turkey and already you want to limit yourselves in North Africa,where we are not even yet wanted at this time like we were informed in last chapter. We cant get in to Syria by Sea.So our options are limited to land route and only land route is via Turkey.

Kraxis

12-10-2006, 15:58

It is quite limited how much ground the Gebirsjägers can cover. They can beat the Turks, undoubtedly, but they can't take a line across the entire peninsula. They are simply too few. And if we let them get stuck in Turkey, we don't have them elsewhere.

Greece, Yugoslavia and Norway were all relatively small, with the options of strategic flankings. We don't have that option against Turkey, only a full head on assault into Anatolia. Maybe a few airdrops and limited landings on the Black Sea coast, but those woul be tactical options.
Besides the potential for Turkey to defend itself is rather considerable. A large population from which the Turks could call up conscripts. After all it seems highly unlikely that we could have her down in weeks. Remember also that we currently have very little front to attack, so we would need to build up forces for a good while. I doubt the Turks would go unaware. Neither the Czechs nor the Poles were caught with their pants down, both had called up their reserves. The Turks would do the same.

We don't need to get dragged into a sluggingmatch in the mountains when we can avoid it.

Kagemusha

12-10-2006, 20:34

We have 1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th and 6th Gebirgsjäger Divisions and 188th and 99th light infantry divisions which consist of Mountain troops at our disposal. To compare Germans used only 5th,6th Gebirgsjäger Divisions and 2nd Panzer Division to take Greece. We have the forces if we have the will. We have to remember that we are not concentrating our forces on Operation Barbarossa at the moment like Germany was in real life at this point.We have huge pool of units sitting on their hands. Like the Navy and airforce officers told us they can supply 4 Panzer Divisions in North Africa. We have lot more divisions to use against British.Lets atleast open negotiations with SU and Turkey. I think we could negotiate a military acces deal with Turkey. They are not lunatics afterall. Also becouse of Atatürk´s reforms Turkey had a modern railroad system and with that we could ship our troops very fast to Syria. But if we open negotiations we should have already military plan incase the politics fail.:bow:

Franconicus

12-11-2006, 10:46

Gebirgsjägerdivisionen:

1st -> Part of the 12. Army
2nd -> Norway
3rd -> Norway
4th -> currently set up; destination: 12. Army (Bulgarien)
5th -> brand new, will join the 12. Army
6th -> 12. Armee
7th -> actually transformed from 99. leichte Division, ready for combat in May 1941, no final destination now.

12. Army will lead the invasion of Greece!

Kagemusha

12-11-2006, 11:51

Splendid.Then most of them are already in the area and can be easily deployed after Greece has fallen.:2thumbsup:

DemonArchangel

12-12-2006, 05:19

You only have a few Gebirgsjaeger divisions. Not enough to fight the Turks on their home soil. Hell, you maybe have 100,000 Gebirgsjaeger at the most. Kage, your decision to attack Turkey is downright irrational. The German military would get mired down in the mountains of Anatolia with a severely hostile population. We need the Gebirgsjaeger for the Caucasus and the light infantry for North Africa and the Middle East. There will be too many partisans, and you have to realize, Hitler's a ****ing lunatic. He can't and won't get what he wants, so smashing through the British in Libya to capture Alexandria (and the British navy) would be the quickest way to success in the Mediterranean.

In order to deal with the Turks, they would be better as allies, than as enemies. Try to support a coup by the pro-Nazi Turkish nationalists against the current Turkish government. And given how mountainous Turkey is, we're going to be bogged down for a long time, with our panzers tied down and easily ambushed. We need our forces in North Africa, the quickest way to get to the Mid-East.

Kagemusha

12-12-2006, 10:26

Im just trying to think out of the box. Like i have repeatedly sayed. I have no problem on sending those 4 panzer divisions in the Libya. If we would have stronger navy in Mediterranian i wouldnt have anything against using only the Southern desert route. Also i was never thinking of invading Turkey with only Gebirgsjäger divisions.They would be there only as specialists in mountain warfare. We have lot more infantry divisions and Panzer divisions in our disposal, then the few Gebirgsjäger Divisions.
What i read from your post is that you are already "fighting on Caucasus".Guess what?If we take Turkey we are also next to Soviet Unions Southern border with Turkey,in Caucasus. Which would create lot more options incase Barbarossa materializes. Also with these operational goals that Hitler gave us,we wont be attacking SU in 1941.
Why are you completely dismissing the option of coordinated attack with the Soviets? Do you honestly believe that Turkey would start a war with both Germany and SU after what happened to Poland and when they see what will happen to Greece, when we would be just asking for military access via Turkey?Also how are you guys going to transferr the oil in to Germany when even if we take Suez,the British Navy will controll Mediterranian? We are landbased power and that is just the fact we have to live with,for the moment.

DemonArchangel

12-12-2006, 22:43

Kage, the plan is to take Alexandria, to deny the British navy a port to operate out of. And maybe we could negotiate with the Turks, but just remember that it will take a long time and too many forces to defeat the Turks, when we can win in North Africa RIGHT NOW. And we have to act immediately to seize Alexandria, before the British can build up a huge amount of material superiority.

Franconicus

12-13-2006, 11:18

We have very accurate information about Turkey. No need to speculate! It is very unlikely that the British already sent new equipment to the Turkish, so the infomation is upto date.

TURKEY,
Population: 17 100 000 (in 1938). Borders with (during WWII) Bulgaria, Greece, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Soviet Union. It also has access to the Black and Mediterranean Seas.
Area: 767 100 squared kilometers.
Capital City: Ankara
Overview: Shortly before WWII, the internal and external policies of the Turkish government began to diverge from the progressive course undertaken by K. Ataturk; subsequently to Ataturk's death in 1938, under combined pressure from reactionary domestic elements and from imperialistic powers, Turkey halted the realization of social reforms while in foreign policy it adopted an anti-Soviet stance. After the eruption of World War II, it announced a declaration of neutrality, and on 19/10/1939 it signed a mutual assistance pact with Great Britain and France. Influenced by the early war triumphs of Nazi Germany, Turkey decided to initiate cooperation with the Axis
Armed Forces: In 1938 the Turkish standing army had 20 000 officers and 174 000 men. Military service lasted for three years. In 1939 the Turkish army was administrationally divided into three army inspectorates, nine corps, and one military governorship; the country's armed forces were composed of 20 infantry divisions, three brigades of mountain troops, one fortress brigade, and five cavalry divisions (including two reserve cavalry divisions) - altogether 132 regiments (60 infantry, six mountain troops, 21 cavalry, eight reserve cavalry, 20 field artillery, 10 heavy artillery, and seven fortress artillery). The armed forces were poorly equipped; weapons shipments from Germany, Great Britain, and U.S. did little to improve that condition. Just before the onset of hostilities the Turkish navy underwent a program of expansion and modernization; two submarines were ordered for construction in Germany, two submarines and four destroyers were ordered for construction in U.K. Lesser vessels were also constructed in home shipyards. After Germany delivered one submarine in 1939, the Turkish navy contained 19 naval vessels and they included one armoured ship, one line cruiser, two light cruisers, two torpedo-boats, four destroyers, five submarines, and four other lesser ships (most vessels were obsolete); with a total displacement of 55 775 tonnes (the number of naval personnel stood at 9 200). The real combat value of the navy was insignificant. By 1940 the Turkish air force was composed of four air regiments (each regiment contained six air companies), and had in possession a total of 370 aircraft (it had 8 500 personnel).

Note that the population is 17 Million. By far less than today!

Franconicus

12-13-2006, 15:31

Chapter 28– Carinhall
November 11th, 1940

After a long, controversial discussion the planning group finally decides to suggest operating along the line Malta, Libya and Suez. Von Stosch, who still does not agree, is outvoted.

The group presents the proposal to Keitel, who forwards them to Hitler. The Führer approves them and orders to start detail planning. However, he reserves the final release of the operation after consultations with the Duce and the meeting with Molotov.

Göring orders Ramcke to come to Carinhall, the Hunting Seat of Göring. Here, in the pompous residence of the Reichsmarschall, he receives the official promotion. He also meets Kesselring and has the opportunity to discuss the campaign against the British Isles.

“Well, Ramcke, the British had just attacked the French fleet and killed thousands of French sailors. This made it clear that they did not intend to make peace. So the plans against England were executed.
During August we started to attack the shipping traffic in the Channel. The result exceeded all expectations. The Ju 87 and the Ju 88, both able to dive can hit ships with high precision. Within days the English suffered high casualties. They lost so many merchants ships and destroyers that they avoid any passage through the channel during daylight, now. This is an outstanding success, but it was not cheap. The RAF was furious that the Luftwaffe fought the British dominance in the Channel. It has some good fighters and my Luftflotte 2 had to pay the price.
The next phase was a joined operation of the submarines and long range bombers. They attacked the convoys in the Western Approach, with good results. The English introduced the convoy system, which reduces their transport capability significantly. However, they are not able to protect the convoys against U Boot raids. In one week the British lost 110,000 GRT. Our only problem is that we have not enough submarines.
In parallel we increased the mining operations. A lot of ships were sunk and many more were damaged. In fact, the English ship yards are not able to handle all the damaged ships. The harbors are jam-packed.”
Ramcke laughs: “A good target for our bombers, I assume.”
Kesselring: “Yes, in deed. That was the time when Sperrle’s 5th joined the campaign. They started to bomb the harbors in the northwest. Main target was Liverpool. The town was bombed 6 nights in a row. The docks are destroyed, several ships sunk and the town is burning. The British were forced to redirect the convoys to the harbors on the eastern coast. Stumpff’s Luftflotte, based in Norway, started to attack the convoys and harbors, too. However, the air defense was too strong for attacks during daylight. Therefore, Stumpff ordered to attack the harbors. All British harbors are under constant bombardment, from Dover to Scotland. Dover is almost completely destroyed, even Scapa was bombed several times.”
Ramcke: “So the British Islands are cut off.”
Kesselring: “I think so. This will be a hard winter for the English. However, now the days are getting shorter. We will see if this helps us or the English. We have lost 195 fighters and 215 bombers. ”
Ramcke: “Then Göring is happy, isn’t he?”
Kesselring: “No, not at all. You know that we could not stop the English bombing raids over Germany. There is simply no effective defense against night raids. Hitler blames Göring. Rumors say that he called him incompetent. Göring replied that he could stop the British if Hitler would allow him to level London. Up to now Hitler has not allowed any attacks against London. He thinks that this would only arouse the fighting spirit of the English. Now Göring runs around like a wild boar.”
Ramcke has to stay at Carinhall for four days to accompany Göring on the hunt. A silly activity for a general and his commander while the Luftwaffe is attacking the Islands and the army prepares the invasion of the Mediterranean.

Finally, Ramcke can return to Berlin. The planning group and the staffs of the branches have been very busy. The order of battle is almost complete.

The Luftwaffe will deploy two Luftflotten.
Luftflotte 2 (Kesselring) will be based in Italy. It will have the II., IX. and X. Korps as well as an Italian Air Corps and the Luftlandekorps Student. It will attack Malta, support the Axis forces at Africa and protect the German supply convoys.
Luftflotte 4 (Löhr) will support the invasion of Greece and then attack the Royal Navy in the Eastern Mediterranean. It consists of the IV., V. and VIII Korps.
The Army also decided which units will participate at the operations.

Operation Safari (the landing in Libya) will be done by the new formed Panzergruppe 2 with the 39. Army Corps (15. and 21. Panzerdivision) and the 41. Army Corps (3. and 4. Panzerdivision) as well as the Italian XXI.Corps.

Operation Südsee (the seizure of Malta) will be done by the Luftlandekorps Student with the 7.Flieger-Division, the 22.Infanterie-Division and the Bau-Lehr-Regiment z.b.V. with 800 Brandenburgers.

Operation Marita (the invasion of Greece) will be done with the 2.Army, the 12.Army and the Panzergruppe 1.

All those units are currently refilled and receive additional equipment for their missions.

Ramcke talks with Kesselring and receives other news, too. The Russians occupied the southern creek of the Danube mouth and control the mouth completely, now. In Italy the supply situation is getting worse. The Navy does not have enough oil to operate and staple foods have to be rationed.

Kesselring also tells Ramcke that Hitler is looking for the right leader of the Panzergruppe 2. The commander of this group has to have high military skills, good fighting spirit and must be flexible enough to succeed in desert warfare. Additionally he must have diplomatic skills to negotiate with the Italians. There are several skilled persons available:

Generaloberst Guderian
Generaloberst Hoth
Generalfeldmarschall Rundstedt
Generalfeldmarschall Bock
Generalfeldmarschall Kluge.

Rodion Romanovich

12-13-2006, 15:57

Guderian - he has aggressive tactics, is skilled and openminded to the modern war technology, including the armored warfare. His only downside is that he could be an overly aggressive risk taker, but that's the judgement passed on him by the generation of generals that still thinks in terms of ww1 tactics and infantry based combat, so it's questionable whether their criticism of him is justified or just a matter of envy. In short, I think he's the most skilled general available for the task - he is confident with commanding armor, and armor will be second only to planes in importance in the wide open African landscape. Whether it's good or not to put our best armored commander in North Africa is questionable, but supposedly if we win quickly in North Africa we will free him up for somewhere else where he might be needed.

I also think he shouldn't have any worse diplomatical skills than the others mentioned - the very fact that he repeatedly disobeyed orders from his superiors and got away with it shows that he can get things done whether he has support for it or not, and victory in North Africa is more important that keeping a few of the Italian commanders from getting angry out of envy and prestige.

Keba

12-13-2006, 16:02

Heinz Wilhelm Guderian is the commander I'd pick. A professional soldier, practically invented the German tank armies with the Achtung - Panzer! and one of the more skilled and experienced commanders in the war at this time. Veteran of the invasions of Poland and France, and the one who led the attack through the Ardennes (with a panzer group, no less) and was at the forefront of the effort which effectively crippled the allies in France. I'd say flexible and skilled enough for the command.

It seems the Italians are losing, no surprise there, though I do hope that will mean we can use the situtation to our advantage and force some decisions on them.

As for Turkey, ouch, the army could be swept away easily, but 17,000,000 people who support the goverment and with no major groups which could work for the invaders? Again, ouch, that'd hurt.

DemonArchangel

12-13-2006, 18:28

Now where is Erwin Rommel in all of this?

Anyway, my vote goes to Guderian. He seems to be a tactically competent and creative individual. And how on earth have the Russians managed to occupy the mouth of the Danube? Keep a close eye on the Eastern Front.

And as for the British night raids, what's the status of our own radar air defenses? We need to prevent the British from bombing our factories, port facilities etc.

Kagemusha

12-13-2006, 19:40

At this point Rommel didnt have experience from commanding Army sized formations.I wouldnt be suprized if he would be the other of the two Corps commanders of the 2nd Panzergruppe. We want our best Panzer commander on the field ofcourse so i pick Guderian too.:bow:

AggonyDuck

12-13-2006, 20:39

Generaloberst Hoth

I agree that Guderian might be the more brilliant of the two, but somehow I just don't think that he's the right man for this job. Hoth on the other hand seems to fit in the role rather perfectly.

King Kurt

12-14-2006, 10:41

Like Aggony, I wonder if Guderian is too obvious a choice. He ended up in that admin role by the middle of the war and his reputation is based on his theory work - excellent as it is, it is still only on paper - and his sucess early in the war against oppolents not yet used to the new mobile warfare.
War in the desert is about supplies and organisation and I wonder if Guderian's style of rushing on might lead to him outstretching his supplies and getting caught out. Remember the British general is probably Wavell whose campaign against the Italians is still used as an example of classic mobile warfare today. Perhaps Hoth, a talented, tough general who was resolute in adversity and a good organiser would be a better choice.
So I plump for Hoth - anybody who was used to name a planet in Star Wars can't be bad!!!:2thumbsup:

Kraxis

12-14-2006, 15:02

I also want to support Hoth...

He was my obvious choice from the get go. Guderian is brilliant, no doubt, and I beleive he might indeed be the better of the two at the type of warfare. He is is after all the proponent if lighter, faster tanks and the deep penetration tactics. That fits the desert very well.
However he is anything but diplomatic, and like Rommel (who is even less diplomatic) he would likely keep going until he had no more fuel, ammo and infantry nearby. And that would set him near Tobruk or Benghazi at best. Not the best situation I would say.

Hoth on the other hand is a deliberate and aggressive commander. He likes to attack... a lot in fact. And in the desert the attack is stronger generally. So that should be settled.
He is also a keen tactician, but he does not get stuck into the same 'foolish' situations as Rommel or Guderian by running to the most advanced part of the front, leaving the staff bewildered as what to do.
And finally he has a likeable nature. He is no diplomat or smoothtalker, but he generally makes people at ease. That has got to be better than an aggressive and pompous Rommel, or an overconfident and pedantic Guderian.

Besides, Guderian will be at 'home' in Russia, better than in the desert.

DemonArchangel

12-14-2006, 16:16

Ah understood Kraxis, you think Guderian would outrun his supply lines and get cut off by the British. Makes sense I suppose. Guderian would be better on the Eastern Front to lead deep penetrations into the rear of enemy lines. North Africa has tons of bottlenecks, and requires more use of infantry, artillery, engineers (especially when we get to the Nile Delta). So yes, we do need an aggressive commander that can strike hard, but not somebody that will outrun his supply lines and get his precious Panzer assets destroyed.

Change my choice to Hoth Franc.

Rodion Romanovich

12-14-2006, 18:54

Where can I find more info about Hoth? I mostly only find things about which battles he fought and the outcomes, often defeats, but since those were difficult battles it isn't enough material to pass a fair judgement on his military knowledge.

As for Guderian, here are some quotes I found and thought I would share:

"Der Motor des Panzers ist ebenso seine Waffe wie die Kanone". (The engine of the Panzer is a weapon just as the main-gun).

"Fahrkarte bis zur Endstation". (Ticket to the last station) - Shouting to his Panzertroops when they were roaring past him, meaning that they should go as far as they could.

"Man schlägt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern". (You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread) - Meaning that you should concentrate your Panzers for one mighty push in one direction and not distribute them.

"Es gibt keine verzweifelten Lagen, es gibt nur verzweifelte Menschen". (There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people).

(from http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen2.htm)

Keba

12-14-2006, 20:55

Where can I find more info about Hoth?

Not really sure, I found a lot about him, but in tidbits scattered around the books I've read on WWII. As a testament to his skill, he was in the battle of Kursk and managed to make significant inroads against Russian emplacements. Most of his work was on the Eastern Front, and there are precious few books in English about that area ... much more is avaible on Russian or even Polish.

Though I agree that Guderian may not be the best choice, his theories on the emplyment of airforce and armour in combination are exactly what is needed for North Africa. I'd agree that he's not exactly good at being diplomatic, though I'd point out, as was done already, that despite standing up to Hitler and the entire High Command (in the case of the battle of Kursk) he managed to get away without consequences.

As for overextending, that might be a problem, but, with proper support operations in the Med, that shouldn't really be a problem. I'll stick to my vote.

Kagemusha

12-14-2006, 21:37

Here is brief biography on Hoth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Hoth

Hoth is a good Panzer commander,but Guderian is the best commander for Panzer army we have at this point so i will stick with Guderian.

Kraxis

12-14-2006, 23:33

Actually, the forces we are sending (4 Panzer divisions + the loose stuff of inf. and light divisions) is perfectly suited to his commandsizes. They might be just a wee tad large, but he was an individualist, so he should manage that as well.

I think being able to smooth things over with the 'local' Italians will be important. Rommel half failed this, and it wasn't until he got personal command of the Italians that they finally shaped up well (showing that there was nothing wrong with Italian martial ability or will if led well). Remember, the forces we send are not even a quarter of the Italian forces there. If the general is less well with the German panzers (or as a general in all) but can get he Italains to fight like proper troops, then it should be more effective than the best general of all times commanding the Panzers but getting nothing from the Italians.

Well, that is how I see it.

Kagemusha

12-14-2006, 23:57

Its a completely valid point and i agree that Hoth would be lot better with liason affairs with Italians.But my wiew is that the Fighting ability of the Italian troops weights less then the ingeniosity of Commanding General of German troops in Africa.We have to remenber that Hitler didnt ever give lot of aknowledgement on the Desert campaign becouse of Operation Barbarossa.
Now this operation will be the most important for this year in his eyes and it will be crucial to have a commander in Africa who can act independently and wont turn into muppet of Hitler. What we need in Africa is Blitzkrieg at its best. And in my mind Guderian is the best commander to achieve that.He is not as reckless as Rommel. But simply the father of Blitzkrieg.What he achieved with his XIX army Corps at Poland and France was astonishing.And with Panzer gruppe Guderian and second Panzer army in Russia he was instrumental.Also I would blame von Kluge a lot more about Hitlers decision of pushing Guderian aside,since Guderian really didnt do anykind of mistake.Von Kluge was just cautious Army commander that had completely different tactical wiews then Guderian. I think that this kind of Independent role would be perfect for Guderian.:bow:

King Kurt

12-15-2006, 15:53

Well - isn't this a thorny problem. After some debate, I am more in the Hoth camp than ever. My initial thoughts was that Franc - cunning old fox that he is - was offering such an obvious choice that there must be a catch. Guderian feels like a David Beckham choice - flash, quite talented, great PR but can he lead, can he inspire, can he organise??? while Hoth feels more like a Zinadean Zidane choice - talented, dogged, more well rounded, a winner.

You can't doubt Guderian's talent and his theory of armoured warfare shaped so much of warfare, even today. But on the field he did do well in Poland and france - but against WW1 style armies. In the desert, it will be different - I can see him outreaching his supplies, the Italians letting him down when he falls out with them, the lead Pansers running in to a formation of Matildas with no 88s in support because they are far behind or out of fuel. I just feel a little caution and a little planning and a little co-ordination are required.

This does feel like a head/ heart decision - your heart says Guderian, your head says Hoth. In this case, I definately feel that the head should rule the heart.:2thumbsup:

SwordsMaster

12-16-2006, 13:31

How about von Kluge? He is as good a general as Hoth, and his 4th army destroyed Belgium, the Netherlands and walked into France, so he is familiar enough with blitzkrieg. Besides, having had people like Rommel under his command, he might just be the guy who will talk some sense into the italians...

Kagemusha

12-16-2006, 16:53

Von Kluge? The one who ratted Guderian to Hitler during Barbarossa,becouse Guderian executed an tactical withdrawal. :dizzy2: Is it just me or have i turned into one man opposition in this game?Have i gone nuts or has our tactical and Strategig thinking changed completely,gentlemen?:bow:

Kraxis

12-16-2006, 20:33

SwordsMaster

12-17-2006, 14:26

Kluge is a good general, but he is somewhat more traditional.
He is good with infantry and artillery on the attack, yet he is not particularly aggressive. But armour and defensive operations are not within his scope.
I think a man like him would be quite dangerous for us in the desert.

Well, yes and no. He is familiar with blitzkrieg, and might just be the man to organise the italians who are mostly infantry into something useful. Being not as aggressive as Guderian, he'll protect supply routes and will not run out of fuel in the middle of Lybia...

Keba

12-17-2006, 14:47

Well, yes and no. He is familiar with blitzkrieg, and might just be the man to organise the italians who are mostly infantry into something useful. Being not as aggressive as Guderian, he'll protect supply routes and will not run out of fuel in the middle of Lybia...

Actually, the current majority is for Hoth, rather than Guderian.

Though I agree that having the Italians well organized would be good, I'd say that it is more important that the German forces be properly employed first, and Italians kept in good relations second. Remember, the Italians may be numerous, but they are badly equipped. Though they would be invaluable to a victory in North Africa, it is the German forces that will have to play the key role.

And that means Panzers. Kluge operates with more classical forces, and is not overly reliant on tanks. The Italians, while useful, are best not overly relied on. What we need is a good combined forces commander who can convince the Italians to work in concert.

The choice, then, is between Guderian, a rather brilliant commander who can be rather agressive (the charge to the sea in France being proof of his aggressivness), and Hoth, who is also a rather good commander of tank forces who is a fair bit less aggressive, but very skilled (as evidenced by actions at Kursk). Though I'd say that Hoth would be the more diplomatic choice, as Guderian could be rather stubborn (up to the point of standing up to the whole High Command).

Rodion Romanovich

12-17-2006, 15:54

The Italians have:
+ numbers
+ average to good rifles, grenades and standard issue infantry equipment
- rather poor artillery and machineguns
- rather poor troop mobility
- poor tanks, hardly more than moving anti-infantry machinegun platforms
- comparatively low morale

On offense, we could have panzer spearheads consisting of most of the panzers and if needed a few of the fastest Italian tanks coming in as second wave, while Italian infantry and the slower light tanks follow up to garrison, wipe up remaining infantry and cover supplies etc.

On defense we should assign a few of the panzers to the Italian formation to give them the extra strength and morale needed for holding the line, while we would still have enough numbers for our panzer spearheads to carry out counter-offensives, possibly with some of the Italian light tanks employed as a second wave where they can do damage but also avoid taking much damage from the enemy.

Guderian would probably overinterpret the idea of concentrating the power of the spearheads, which would work extremely well on offense, but he would probably leave unsupported Italians to hold the line while attempting own counter-offensive flanking plans etc. and be unwilling to split up the precious panzers (the same thing Rommel did), resulting in the Italians being an easy target for the British to defeat, allowing them to break the line and thus also threaten the panzers. I will perhaps withdraw my vote for Guderian on second thoughts, since it is only possible to have one person commanding at the time. Of course the best would be to use Guderian for the first 1-3 months, then switch to Hoth ~:)

As for supplies, I don't think it's entirely the fault of the general to have problems in such a difficult region as North Africa. Rommel got his worst supply problems in 1942 because of allied convoy attacks, and partisans blowing up trains with supplies in the Balkans at critical times, etc. Rommel's fault wasn't that, but his refusal to retreat and instead attempt to "end the campaign quickly" and continue advancing, hoping that he would have won before the supply problems would come. And he also had a bad health and had to leave his troops shortly before El Alamein... Even without sunk supply convoys and similar, it's damn difficult to get supplies through the desert while having almost no fleet to speak of to bring the supplies eastward. Ideally, things should be navally transported to Tobruk when we get that far, for instance, but that's not going to be easy without naval supremacy in the area. Another important thing is to bring the air bases eastwards with us in the advance, to make sure we get proper air superiority as we reach Tobruk, El Alamein and finally Alexandria and the Suez.

DemonArchangel

12-17-2006, 18:34

Also, one must remember, the British have MASSIVE artillery superiority over us, and they will have even more artillery superiority if we don't act quickly yet deliberately. Also, Legio is right, we must try to move our airfields forward as we advance, so try to bring along adequate engineering units.

By the way, has anybody ever thought of the role of special forces in taking British airfields and interdicting British supplies?

JimBob

12-17-2006, 18:49

+ numbers
Which we need, so we need the Italians happy
+ average to good rifles, grenades and standard issue infantry equipment
We need well equipped infantry, now and latter, so pleasing the Italians is a must.
- rather poor artillery and machineguns
Can be remedied with German equipment and German support
- rather poor troop mobility
Can be fixed
- poor tanks, hardly more than moving anti-infantry machinegun platforms
When German tanks arrive Italian tanks can be moving machine gun platforms
- comparatively low morale
Can be changed by a commander who doesn't treat them like dirt and who can use them and win.

Hoth seems to be the best choice.

Franconicus

12-18-2006, 17:24

:beam: So it is Hoth.

King Kurt

12-19-2006, 10:32

Jim Bob's assesment of the Italians was a little gloomy in places. The tanks - for 1940 - were not disimilar to many other tanks of the period - even the Mk 1 and 2s of the germans - the 45mm gun was good for the time, but it was the lack of radio, unreliability and the tendency to burst into flames which weighed against them.
The artillery had poor equipment, but had high morale with several notable stands in the fighting in 1940.
The heart of the Italian problem was poor command and logistics - perhaps our man Hoth will sort them out.:2thumbsup:

Franconicus

12-19-2006, 14:24

Chapter 29– Dark Clouds
Berlin, November 12th/13th, 1940

Keitel agrees with Ramcke. Hoth would certainly be a good commander for the Panzergruppe. However, he will have to have to skilled commanders for the corps, too. Rudolf Schmidt, Georg-Hans Reinhardt and Erwin Rommel are worth considering.

Keitel tells Ramcke that the Americans are getting more and more involved in this war. They extend their convoy patrols and sooner or later they will get in contact with German submarines. Hitler already reduced the operation zone. This makes the war against the British convoys harder. The material help for the English is increasing too. Roosevelt has plans to give them more and more direct support. Maybe German will have to fight the American threat sooner than expected.

Ramcke hurries to join Student. From the radio he gets the news that Molotov arrived at Berlin. The speaker tells the German Russian friendship assures the defeat of England.

In the RLM there is a lot detail work to do for the seizure of Malta. Now that the target is clear, the scheduling has to be done. The X.Air Corps will arrive at Sicily end of this year. The airborne divisions will be ready in February. In February the first parts of the Panzergruppe 2 will be ferried to Africa, too. Then the fighting will begin. This Christmas, however, will be a peaceful one. At least if the English stay quiet.

Late in the evening, Ramcke drives back home. On the way, there is a black limousine. There is an officer talking at the driver, who is looking into the engine compartment.

Ramcke orders his driver to stop. He gets out of the car and goes to the officer. To his surprise, he sees that the officer is a Russian major. He is even more surprised when the officer turns around.
“Towarish Bernhard! Is that you? I hardly recognize you with all that gold on your shoulders.”

“Nikolai Nabukov! What are you doing here?”

“I am member of the Soviet delegation. And now I have to deliver some documents to Comrade Molotov. However, this idiot is not able to run the engine.” He gives the driver a boot.

“Do not worry. I will land you to Molotov. Afterwards my driver will call a garage. We could have a drink until you will get another car!”

On the way to the centre Ramcke wonders about the strange ways of fate. He met Nabukov when he was fighting with the Freikorps at Latvia. Nabukov was prisoner of war.

He is the son of an ordinary farmer. Like Ramcke he never visited secondary school. However, he has the slyness of the country people.

This night Ramcke and Nabulov make a tour from bar to bar. Of course they talk about the time in the Baltic States and – about the German – Soviet relationship.

“Nikolai, what is the state of our friendship, Nikolai?”

“What friendship? Has there ever been friendship between our countries?”

“Well, didn’t Germany support Russia when it was completely isolated?”

“Yes, because Germany was isolated, too. However, I know very well that the German conservatives will never be our friends. And the fascists? They hate us even more. Despite their promises they would rather kill us.”
“Then why did Stalin make a pact with Hitler?”

Nabukov smiles: “Oh, Stalin is smart. He knows, the capitalists had done everything they could to inflict damage on us. Now they want to be our friends, just because they want our blood for them. No, Bernhard! Russia has only one friend – Russia!”

“Then why did you make this agreement with Hitler?”

“Isn’t that plain to see? It was obvious that the imperialists were going to fight each other, like Marx predicted. Russia could not win anything if it is involved in this war. However, once this war is over, Russia will have to stand a stronger enemy, either the capitalistic Anglo-Americans or the fascistic Germans. Stalin is wise. He prepares our country for this situation. He supports Germany, because he thinks that it will loose anyway. The longer it stands, the better for the USSR!”

“What is Molotov doing here in Berlin?”

“Well, Stalin gave Hitler free hand to invade Poland and France and he even gave him the resources he needed. In return he increased our sphere of power. Now Hitler continues the fight, he needs our support again. We have to negotiate.”
“What do you expect?”
„I assume that Molotov claims the control of Finland, Romania and Bulgaria. Additionally we want to have the air and sea bases at the Bosporus. Russia has to get access to the Mediterranean Sea and to control the entrance of the Black Sea.”

Ramcke laughs: “Nothing more?”

Nabukov: “No, Bernhard, nothing more. Then it is your business to win this war. You get all the support we can give. However, in case you loose, Stalin will be forced to get a better position against any Western aggressor.”

Ramcke: “What do you mean?”

Nabukov: “In case that Germany is defeated – and only in this case – Russia will be forced to occupy Hungary, Yugoslavia, Greece, the rest of the former Poland. Additionally, we would try to get control of the entrance of the Northern Sea. We would also insist on the neutrality of Sweden. The Western capitalists control the seas; we have to be prepared.”

Ramcke: “Do you think, Hitler will accept?”

Nabukov: ”What other option does he have?”

After a couple of drinks Ramcke drives home. There he receives a call from Student:
“The British Mediterranean Fleet attacks the Italian base at Taranto. During the night Swordfish aircrafts attack in two waves and gain three torpedo hits on the brand new battleship Littorio and one each on Caio Duilio and Conte di Cavour. Two other ships are damaged.”

How should the German react on Molotov`s proposals:

1) Appeasement: Give the Russians what they want, as long as they stay quiet and as long as Germany has access to the Romanian oil. Next year Germany will be able to get everything back.

2) Co-operation: Ask the Russians to join the German-Italian pact. Offer them Finland and parts of Turkey. This will get them into conflict with the English.

3) No way. Reject the offer. Do not give them anything at all.

Rodion Romanovich

12-19-2006, 14:33

2) Co-operation: Ask the Russians to join the German-Italian pact. Offer them Finland and parts of Turkey. This will get them into conflict with the English.

1 would be too much - and from the Soviet position they can't offer much valuable in the fight against the English. 3 would severe the relations. 2 keeps relations good, shows that we're not desperate (as 1 would), and could draw the Soviets into the war on our side (but most likely won't, but if it doesn't succeed it won't hurt either).

Kagemusha

12-19-2006, 15:05

Option 2.While this will draw Sweden and Finland in war on allied side. After we took Norway,i believe firmly that Sweden will ally with Finland,since now they dont have anyone else then each other to get support from. This wont be a good thing for our industrys need of Iron Ore. Im bit suprised that SU is enthusiastic about trying to take Finland again on such a short notice.

King Kurt

12-19-2006, 15:22

2 could cut each way - we might get something we want without the Soviets getting too much - for example they might do the slugging it out with Turkey, leaving us free to concentrate on other things. Or on the other hand, with a formal alliance, they will feel free to call for help when they need it - in Finland, in Turkey etc, they will still want roumania - which could lead to the Roumanians turning against us.
I wonder if 2 is a little too formal to contemplate - may be 1 is better - we are less likely to get embroiled into something we don't want with that and we can undo any disadvantage when we have resolved the Med problem. Also with 1 there is likelyhood of Sweden and its iron ore turning against us.
So, after some thought, I think we should go for 1.
On a broader point, will there be a Christmas truce? - I am unlikely to be near a PC from this friday until the New Year!!!!:2thumbsup:

DemonArchangel

12-19-2006, 16:19

Option 1, then after we declare war on the Russians, we can be seen by the Romanians and Bulgarians as liberators from communist oppression.

Also, I might be gone for a very long time starting this Wednesday, so here are my requests for the Fallschirmjaeger:

1.) Try to secure enough aircraft and enough equipment. Logistics are critical to the German war machine.

2.) Institute the shoulder parachute. The single strap at the back parachute makes it too difficult to control the parachute.

3.) Use the 75mm recoilless rifle on the Kubelwagen for anti-tank operations.

As for the rest of the war:

1.) Motorized Artillery: The biggest single weakness of the Germans is that their tube artillery cannot keep up with their tank spearheads. This tends to make hardpoint reduction very difficult. Also, motorized artillery would make initial penetrations easier by allowing our forces to achieve a higher density of artillery relative to the enemy defenses.

2.) Better Radar: Better radar on our airplanes/air defenses will help counter British night raids over our territory.

3.) Tricks of the Trade: Teach our allies German training methods, and orders in the German language, so that they can work better with our forces.

4.) The Holocaust: If nothing else, it's a waste of resources. Don't bother with the whole racism thing altogether if possible.

Kraxis

12-19-2006, 19:00

Losing Romania could be bad to our oilreserves. I don't think that is going to sit well with the top brass, especially not Hitler who is obsessed with oil. But neither would an alliance.

I would have to say 1. 2 is going to be trouble for us, either they reject it and we get a version of 3, or they accept and we have to share the spoils and likely face a Russian army that has learned a lot against the Turks and British. That can only be bad. Heavy losses among their armour will not be to our advantage as the T-34/40 would just get kicked into production, letting us face a whole lot more of them when we attack. No thanks!

1... We can't give them the bases since we can't give what isn't ours. Romania can be liberated, just like Finland, giving us good supplies of people willing to fight (and in case of the Finns with good skills).

AggonyDuck

12-19-2006, 19:11

I'd have to go with option 3. There is no need to appease the Bolsheviks.

Kagemusha

12-19-2006, 19:15

I have an funny feeling that i would not want be in the place of the officer who will suggest giving Romania to SU,when Hitler directed as one of our main goals the defence of Romanian oilfields.:sweatdrop:

Kraxis

12-20-2006, 04:36

Really we shouldn't be giving any advice at all on this matter... this is for the diplomats and politicians.

We only have to set out from a pure military standpoint... And that would be 'no alliance with the Reds'.

Keba

12-20-2006, 09:28

Option 3. No deal with the Bolsheviks.

Option 2 would cost us Finland and get us stuck in Turkey for a temporary alliance. Option 1 is not acceptable, it would just cost too much and make it apparent to everyone that Germany is desperate and losing (which we aren't, yet).

Either way, Hitler is convinced of the necessity of war with the Soviet Union. Plans are already in place, and any action we take to change that is likely to be a bad political move. We cannot afford to be found working with the Soviets too closely.

We'll certainly go to war with the SU ... and Finland would make a good place to open up a second front (dedicated to taking Murmansk), and the Russians getting any more field experience would make the initial invasion that much more difficult.

Kraxis

12-21-2006, 06:31

Yeah... the more I think of it, the more I'm inclined to change my vote to 3.

The Ruskies can't fight us right now. They know that their armed forces aren't ready. The debacle with Finland is barely over, and they have to digest the lessons learned. So the thoguht of fighting a much larger enemy with better weapons isn't appealing to them right now, not given how they fared against Finland.
There will be a lot of bark, but no bite.

Consider the vote changed.

Csargo

12-21-2006, 07:05

Option 3

Warluster

12-21-2006, 07:16

Option 3 please.

Franconicus

12-21-2006, 13:36

There will be no chapter before Christmas. I wish you all a peaceful Christmas and a good new year - 1941 :laugh4:

For those who want to work over the holidays, here is the task:

Find out all information about Northern Africa that can be useful. Esp. any fortifications, strategic objectives, air prots harbors. Where can we unload our supply ships, which airfield do we need to raid the Suez Channel?

Franconicus

12-29-2006, 13:55

Chapter 30– The End of 1940
Berlin, Nov/Dec 1940

The last weeks of the year are busy but peaceful. The British do not dare to raid Germany. However, it is not peaceful everywhere. Ramcke reads the news and he knows that the Italians do not have a peaceful Christmas this year.

14.11. In the Balkans... All the Greek forces have gone over to the offensive against the Italian invaders. British aid to Greece begins to arrive.

15.11. Berlin... Hitler issues Directive 18 giving orders to take Malta, to send a Panzergruppe to Libya, to assault Suez, to take the oilfields in the Middle East, to take Northwest Africa. These operations have highest priority. All goals have to be taken latest by the end of 1941. Then the forces have to prepare other operations.
22.11. In Albania... Greek forces capture Koritsa, a town in the Southeast of Albania. They capture 2000 prisoners and some heavy equipment. Almost all the invading Italian forces have now been driven back to Albania.
Sa, 23.11. In Berlin... Marshal Antonescu, the leader of Romania, agrees to join the Axis powers. There are also talks on preparation for a German attack on Greece by the forces based in Romania. German is putting pressure on all the Balkan states since the Italian invasion of Greece in an attempt to ensure the stability of food and oil supplies.
Tue, 26.11. In the Mediterranean... Aircraft from a British carrier raid Tripoli. In another operation a carrier attacks targets on Rhodes.
Sa, 30.11. In the Balkans... The Greek advance from Macedonia continues. They win an important victory near Pogradec, in southeast Albania, capturing the town after a seven day battle.
Wed, 4.12. In the Balkans... The Greek forces continue their advance and enter Premeti.
Fri, 6.12. From Rome... Marshal Badoglio resigns his post as Italian Commander in Chief. His successor is General Count Cavallero.
Mon, Dec.9 In North Africa... The British begin an offensive in the western desert. General O'Connor leads 2 divisions, 7th Armored and 4th Indian, in the attack. They are supported by 7th Royal Tank Regiment (RTR) against whose Matilda tanks the Italians will have no answer. General Wavell is in Supreme Command in Egypt. The British force has few reserves and therefore the attack has comparatively limited objectives at first. General Graziani is the Italian Commander in Chief and he has deployed the 7 divisions of 10th Army (General Gariboldi) in forward positions in Egypt. O'Connor's men began their advance from Mersa Matruh, 70 miles from the Italian front, three days previously and achieve complete surprise when they make their attack. The Italians have done little since mid-September but build a series of fortified camps in which they now sit. These camps do not give any real support to each other and will very easily be isolated. The British attack is in the form of a left hook around the Italian coastal positions and owes much to the careful training which the troops have received in desert warfare. The Matildas are used to break into first the Nibeiwa camp then the Tummar West camp which both fall the first day.
From Rome... There are command changes and redistribution of ships and squadrons in the Italian navy. Admiral Riccardi replaces Admiral Cavagnari as Undersecretary of State and Head of Supermarina. Admiral Iachino replaces Campioni as Fleet Commander in Chief.
Tue,10.12. In North Africa... Sidi Barrani falls to the British attack. There are 20,000 prisoners already in the offensive. The coast road to the west has been cut by 7th Armored Division at Buq Buq.
OKW issues a directive ordering the transfer of German 10th Fliegerkorps to south Italy and Sicily. Field Marshal Milch has been in Rome during the last few days to discuss the measures to help the Italian navy.
Wed,11.12. In North Africa... Sollum is bombarded by ships from Cunningham's fleet. Wavell's attacks have ruined five of the seven Italian divisions they have met and they are all rapidly retreating from Egypt. Some 14,000 more prisoners are taken, many of whom come from the Catanzaro Division which is expelled from positions near Buq Buq.
Thir, 12.12 In North Africa... Wavell is not able to follow up his success as vigorously as he would have wished because 4th Indian Division is about to be withdrawn for service in the Sudan.
In Belgrade... A treaty of friendship is signed by Yugoslavian and Hungarian representatives.
Fri, 13.12 In North Africa... A small British force has entered Libya and now cuts the road leading west from the important Italian position at Bardia.
In Germany... Hitler issues Directive 20 giving orders for the further preparation of the invasion of Greece, Operation Marita. The German forces in Romania are accordingly increased.
In Vichy France... Petain dismisses and arrests Laval and appoints Flandin as foreign minister in his place
Tue,17.12. In North Africa... The British forces occupy Fort Capuzzo, Sollum and three other Italian positions near the Egypt-Libya border. The Italian garrisons of these places have withdrawn to the Bardia fortress.
In Washington... President Roosevelt gives a press conference outlining a scheme which he plans to introduce to bring further aid to Britain which he will call Lend-Lease. His argument is that if a neighbour’s house is on fire it is only sensible to lend him a hose to stop the fire spreading to your own house, and that it would be stupid to think of asking for payment in such circumstances.
In Vichy France... Laval, the former foreign minister, is released from prison after the German ambassador intervenes.
28.12. In the Balkans... The Greeks bring their offensive to an end for the moment in order to consolidate their gains and improve communications with the front.
29.12. From Washington... In one of his famous "fireside chat" broadcasts President Roosevelt describes how he wishes the United States to become the "arsenal of democracy" and to give full aid to Britain regardless of threats from other countries.
It is time that the Germans interfere. Ramcke, Student and the rest of the planning group discuss the operation against Malta. Everybody agrees that the island shall be taken without the Italians. The Italians will prepare an amphibious operation. This will be delayed, however, until the airfield and town is occupied. Then the Italian infantry can be ferried and liberate the island. However, there are different opinions regarding the deployment of the German forces:
1) Kesselring`s proposal is to cut off the island. The X. Fliegerkorps could attack any supply ships as well as warship that comes close to Malta. After maybe four weeks the garrison and the civilians will suffer from hunger and will have to give up. This can be supported by air strikes against the docks and the stocks on the island.
2) Jodl prefers a more direct attack. He agrees that the supply has to be cut off first. Then there should be massive bombardments on the northern part of the island. Next step would be a massive air raid against the English positions in the North an the landing of the Fallschirmjäger. Finally the Fallschirmjäger will take the airport and the Luftlandedivision will reinforce them and decide the battle.
3) Student prefers a slightly different approach. He also wants air strikes against the British naval forces. However, he thinks that the island should be taken by surprise. Without long bombardment. At X day , in the first light of day, bombers should attack the airport. At the same time Fallschirmjäger should land close to the airport and the Luftlandedivision should send some transport planes to touch ground on the airfield, right among the English defenders. Then, the airborne units will occupy the airfield, get reinforcements and take the island while the airforce bombs the town and harbor.

AggonyDuck

12-29-2006, 14:34

3 is definately the best choice. Surprise is usually the key in airborne operations, especially in targets like Malta. We will not gain any huge advantages from long preparing operations. If we can manage to seize an airfield, the island will be ours. I can easily see us seizing an airfield by surprise with option 3, so 3 it is.:yes:

Rodion Romanovich

12-29-2006, 14:38

Difficult! All choices seem pretty good, but I think it's important to take the island ASAP, as option 2 and 3 allows. 2 and 3 also gives a splendid chance of testing the effectiveness of the FJs in practise. So I think 1 must be ruled out. While 2 seems good in theory, it's likely to create perfect defensive terrain, and cause the British forces to dig in and create strong defenses in the difficult terrain caused by bombed out cities and villages, which are more difficult to attack than normal areas are. Besides, 2 takes time. No. 3 would, if well coordinated, disrupt British fortified positions and create chaos at about the same time the landing takes place, which creates a perfect scenario for the FJs, even if there's a risk of losing plenty of Luftlande forces. So I think no. 3 is the best option.

MALTA
Area: 316 km²
Map of villages/cities: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/malta_pol84.jpg
Map pointing out airfield+harbor: http://www.maltaholidayhome.com/Malta%20map.gif edit: Luqa Airfield was finished in late 1940, and Hal Far was an older airfield. Both of the airfields are possible to use, but Hal Far, the older one, is probably not held by as large garrison.
Map of heights: http://www.maltavista.net/img/photo/maps/3_maltaweb.jpg
Hal far airfield: http://www.hms-vengeance.co.uk/falcn.htm
Image of Valetta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Aerialviewvalletta.jpg
And here are some more recon photos from our scout planes ~:) : http://www.merlinsovermalta.com/worldwar2/
http://www.maltavista.net/

Edit: Looking at the aerial pictures, there doesn't seem to be much forests or other good hiding spots... Mostly open ground and cities, and all cities look like typical Medieval fortresses, with plenty of places for defending soldiers to hide and very difficult to attack... The distance between Valetta and the Luqa airfield is quite small, and it would be difficult to delay enemy reinforcements from moving between the two areas - so the element of surprise is very much necessary if Luqa airfield is to be captured. There seems to be two possible harbors where troops can be landed: the grand harbor in Valetta, and a small harbor in the southeast, close to the two airfields. From what I can see, the key regions the British need to hold to win the battle of Malta lie so close to each other that it'll be difficult to cut them off from each other. However, I still believe it's necessary to, as a plan B if/when the element of surprise disappears and/or our troops get bogged down, have diversionary attacks and forces trying to block the contact between reinforcements from Valetta to the airfield. The question is where to put these diversions. And the second question is whether we should try to seize Hal Far or Luqa airfield to use for our own planes! Hal Far is further away and probably easier to capture, if we have diversionary attacks on Luqa airfield from the west, east and south while our main force captures Hal Far airfield. Small forces could be landed east and south east of Valetta to cut off roads from the western part of the island, and the Italians could land in the southeast harbor to reinforce us, with the Grand Harbor being target to heavy bombing raids in the meantime.

Kagemusha

12-29-2006, 15:25

Option 3.And preferably a night attack.The confusion will be so large,that the superior training of Fallschirmjäger will give us Malta with one deadly blow.:bow:

Keba

12-29-2006, 16:04

Definately option 3, we can't afford to give the Brits any advance warning or time to dig in, they already have ample fortifications there as it is. Surprise served us well so far, and we have to make use of it for as long as possible. The British are still not used to paratroopers, and we have to use every advantage we can get.

I'd also support Kage's proposal, a night attack would cause even more chaos for the British, allowing the FJ to overwhelm them with less effort. Also, by night, they won't be able to tell the difference between our bombers and transports, meaning that it will make it that much more difficult for the defenders to shoot down the right planes.

AggonyDuck

12-29-2006, 16:52

Option 3.And preferably a night attack.The confusion will be so large,that the superior training of Fallschirmjäger will give us Malta with one deadly blow.:bow:

A night attack doesn't suit the doctrine of the FJ. We need to quickly seize the airfields in a coup de main operation and to fly in reinforcements by air. But to do this we need daylight, so the best time for an attack would be at the break of dawn.

A night attack would propably do us more harm than good. Firstly remember the defiencies of FJ equipment; the parachute that was strapped to the back, causing a lack of control and a landing position that stops our men from jumping with any heavier weapons than pistols really. Due to this any heavier equipment is dropped in containers, which have to be located. Good luck finding these containers in the darkness of the night. By the time our men are ready to seize the airfields we will have lost our advantage of surprise and the British have got precious time to take defensive positions around the airfields. Added to this is the danger that our smaller units will be spread out along the island, effectively forcing us to form ad hoc companies. Even if we somehow managed to seize the airfields during the night, we would still have to wait several hours to get the airlanding part of the invasion to land successfully.

Anyway a night attack sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Kagemusha

12-29-2006, 18:50

A night attack doesn't suit the doctrine of the FJ. We need to quickly seize the airfields in a coup de main operation and to fly in reinforcements by air. But to do this we need daylight, so the best time for an attack would be at the break of dawn.

A night attack would propably do us more harm than good. Firstly remember the defiencies of FJ equipment; the parachute that was strapped to the back, causing a lack of control and a landing position that stops our men from jumping with any heavier weapons than pistols really. Due to this any heavier equipment is dropped in containers, which have to be located. Good luck finding these containers in the darkness of the night. By the time our men are ready to seize the airfields we will have lost our advantage of surprise and the British have got precious time to take defensive positions around the airfields. Added to this is the danger that our smaller units will be spread out along the island, effectively forcing us to form ad hoc companies. Even if we somehow managed to seize the airfields during the night, we would still have to wait several hours to get the airlanding part of the invasion to land successfully.

Anyway a night attack sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Duckie you know i respect you very much. But what you say is complete rubbish. In daylight British AA will shoot down many of our plains in the night they wont find many before the troops have parashooted or landed. Also night is pretty intresting condition for infantry engagement.
First at night troops with normal or low training will be cautious just becouse of the reasons you mentioned,becouse of uncertainity.When the first wawe will be in the British will shoot more of their own troops then fallschirm jäger.Also it will eliminate all use of of heavy weapons,becouse machine guns and light guns cant confirm targets.Same goes with artillery.Night is best enviroment for elite troops and anyone with any experience from army knows that.Little force what knows what they are doing can beat lot larger force.If we are going to land almost the size of British garrison to Malta.Our spec ops have cleared the island before morning. Or atleast completely pocketed the enemy.Point being you dont need heavy weapons in night assault since it will be close quarter fighting.Remeber our first move was to train Fallschirmjäger to shute with their personal weapons(rifles,sub machine guns,light machine guns):bow:

AggonyDuck

12-29-2006, 20:41

Duckie you know i respect you very much. But what you say is complete rubbish. In daylight British AA will shoot down many of our plains in the night they wont find many before the troops have parashooted or landed. Also night is pretty intresting condition for infantry engagement.
First at night troops with normal or low training will be cautious just becouse of the reasons you mentioned,becouse of uncertainity.When the first wawe will be in the British will shoot more of their own troops then fallschirm jäger.Also it will eliminate all use of of heavy weapons,becouse machine guns and light guns cant confirm targets.Same goes with artillery.Night is best enviroment for elite troops and anyone with any experience from army knows that.Little force what knows what they are doing can beat lot larger force.If we are going to land almost the size of British garrison to Malta.Our spec ops have cleared the island before morning. Or atleast completely pocketed the enemy.

Okay, lets go into detail. The first phase of a German airborne assault was the suppression of enemy AA. This was done by Stukas and they were generally successful at it too. For example at Crete only 7 JU-52's were lost to AA while in the air. We will have almost uncontested air superiority at Malta, so enemy airpower should not be a problem either.

The only part of our FJ division that is really capable of a night time airborne assault is the Luftlande Sturmregiment, because they are the gliderborne part of our 7.Flieger Division and the only ones to actually land with their combat equipment on them. Even then I'd imagine that without proper pathfinders it would be hard to land the gliders in darkness. But I might be wrong about that.

The rest of the 7th Flieger division simply isn't equipped to jump at night. Firstly the parachute. From what I've read the German parachute was hard to control and there was a serious risk of injury when landing and I can't see darkness making it any easier.

The second problem is the equipment containers. FJ already had enough problem trying to locate these in daylight, so somehow I get the feeling they'd be lucky to locate during the night, especially when there's a risk that the darkness makes the jumps a lot more disorganised, thus causing a risk that the containers might not end there were the FJ land. Excellent soldiers armed with pistols will be at a disadvantage when facing normal soldiers with rifles. No amount of training will change that.

Also I'd recommend that you compare the Normandy and the Market Garden airborne operations and see the differences in effectiveness. A daytime drop means that units will arrive at the drop zone organised and ready to move for their objectives. This ensures a proper coup de main operation.A nighttime drop means that units will likely end up disorganised, possibly far away from their objectives and the men will have to gather in ad hoc units to go for their objectives. Our men will perform a lot better when actually fighting in the platoons and companies that they belong to, close to their objectives. Daytime operations also mean that we will have use of our excellent air support, which will be crucial for our success.

Remeber our first move was to train Fallschirmjäger to shute with their personal weapons(rifles,sub machine guns,light machine guns):bow:

Did we? Check again. ~;)

JimBob

12-29-2006, 20:41

Option three,

As to night/day. I think break of dawn takes the best of those and combines them. The planes will come in the dark, the troops will land in with enough light to find their equipment. If we can find when the guards rotate duty we can drop right before that, one shift is asleep the other will be tired. Then we have time to seize the airfield before light and as soon as the sun rises transports hit the runway. The transports will need to be protected by Stukas hitting anything that looks like AA.

Our goal here is not to create confusion however we can, in that case a night drop would be better because we don't need units to be together and, like at Normandy, chaos helps us. We need to seize locations, like in Market Garden, which as a general rule worked well. Most of the bridges were seized and held, except Arnhem and that was due to seriously flawed intelligence rather than a flaw in the time of the jump

Kagemusha

12-30-2006, 04:29

Did we? Check again. ~;)
Yep.why dont we just move to the chapter where war is over and we have lost.It seems i just should quit this interactive.Becouse so many know so much more then me how special operations work.No pun intended.Lets see how you fair.:bow:

AggonyDuck

12-30-2006, 05:11

Yep.why dont we just move to the chapter where war is over and we have lost.It seems i just should quit this interactive.Becouse so many know so much more then me how special operations work.No pun intended.Lets see how you fair.:bow:

If you re-read the thread you will notice that although all of us agreed that it should be something we should change, but mr. Ramcke never got the option of fixing it due to him being so darn busy with the Mediterranean. So our FJ have pretty much the same strengths and weaknesses as the historical ones.

And Kage, come on. Don't quit on us. The more generals we have, the more interesting and fun this is. :yes:

Kagemusha

12-30-2006, 08:34

Sorry Duckie i was completely drunk.And if someone would do me a favour i should be put out of my misery right now becouse of this world embracing hang over.But i dont still agree with day attack.~:)

King Kurt

01-03-2007, 11:39

Like most, I go with the Student option - a swift stroke would be the best. By neutraliseing the airfield, all plausable resistance to our aircraft would be removed. Flak was not much of a defence at this time of the war and the amount of AA on malta was probably minimal. We will need heavy equipment brought in ASAP, so we need the Italian navy, but our air superiority will help.

I can see Kage's point re a night attack, but feel the technology and training at this time of the war precludes using a night attack. Our principle support weapons will be our dive bombers and other aircraft and they are useless at night. Better to take the few casualties from flak and land in a more co-ordinated way during the day, than risk the mess that a night landing would be. The only exception to that might be the landing of some forward elements before dawn to spread cofusion and interdict any reinforcements which were traveling to the battle.

All major airbourne attacks appear to be precarious affairs - we should give ourselves the best chance by trying to remove as many obsticles as possible from our planned operation.:yes:

AggonyDuck

01-03-2007, 11:55

One problem with the Student option is the fact that ULTRA has cracked the Luftwaffe Enigma codes by now, so the Brits will most likely know about our plans for Malta. Also they have studied German airborne tactics and know that the seizing of airfields is a crucial part of it and thus they will defend them heavily.

But at the same time we're not really supposed to know this, and well Malta isn't as heavily defended as Crete, so we should be able to overcome the defenders. I must say to a degree I like Jodl's cautious approach a bit with hindsight information, but I'll stick to Student's plan, like any true Fallschirmjäger should.

Stig

01-03-2007, 12:41

Not to come bouncing in but:
I think Students plan might work good, Malta can hardly be that well defended that it can survive till even possible reinforcements arrive. A battalion of FJ should easely be able to take the airfield. After that reinforcements can arrive in transport planes and another drop can be done near the main city. By this time the island will be more or less in German hands, the Italians can land and take over, and the FJ can go into reserve again, after another succesfull operation.
We have the luck that we know about other Airborne operations and I think I can savely say that a Night attack should be out of the question. They failed in Sicily and Normandy. It's too hard to find the landing zones and especially here it's vital that the airport is taken by supprise.
It might be good to bombard the enemy positions first, but not like Jodl said. Something like 20 Stuka's will do fine, they can clear the main defensive positions and they will make it even easier for our elites to take the island.
It however will be important to directly find the landing zones. Since Malta is (imo) unsuited for gliders (Malta is too hilly) and thus a coup de main on the airport is impossible it's almost vital that the FJ are dropped almost on top of it.
It takes a good battalion of Paratroopers about 30 minutes to assemble and move out, this is when they have all the time in the world, as here they won't have that it's important to group and assemble as quickly as possible, but still then it will still take about 15 minutes. (being it that a battalion (about 600 men (300 fighting)) is dropped in about 20 planes, and that by the time the first plane is half empty the last only started to drop). In that time even the British can drink their tea and come storming at us, maybe a good reason why the FJ shouldn't be dropped too close to the airport.
Another possibility would be a coup de main with gliders landing on the airport, however this means that it would be impossible to reinforce the island by air as it would be impossible to get the gliders away for the time being (unless the British happen to have some towtruck ready for us).

Rodion Romanovich

01-04-2007, 19:01

Some issues:
- there are 2 airfields, not 1. Taking 1 will allow insertion of heavy equipment, but not put enemy fighters out of action. This is probably ok

- the British will have at least 20-25 fighters on the island, along with AA. I think 30-60 axis fighters is needed to match that, given that we might lose some to AA, lose some to fuel/engine problems and other issues, and that we still want superior numbers of fighters when we arrive. Add to that 30-50 bombers (we need numbers for large formations for those due to their lack of precision) and then regarding divebombers at least 10 would be preferable to cover the FJs on the ground with some precision. Would it at all be possible to acquire such numbers for the battle?

- the enemy will most likely want to concentrate their defenses to Valetta and it's Grand Harbor, and the 2 airfields. If we threaten any of these spots the British will probably try to move a reserve to the area threatened. The problem is that the distance between the airfields and Valetta is very short. Only 6 km between Valetta and Luqa airfield, and 9 km to the other airfield from Valetta. That is probably less than 10 minutes of driving, and therefore if any of these targets come under attack, the British will be able to quickly redistribute forces to respond to the situation faster than the FJs can get ready for battle. So for a landing close to each of these spots to work, either the FJs must learn to get ready for battle in 5-10 minutes, or they must be dropped in the western parts of the island, which means it'll take long until heavy equipment can be inserted to support them

===

A question - do we have any kind of ability to drop heavy equipment without needing to control an airfield? I have an idea that might make lack of precision in the drop a nonissue.

Stig

01-04-2007, 21:44

- the British will have at least 20-25 fighters on the island, along with AA. I think 30-60 axis fighters is needed to match that
Do the Brits still have Gloster Gladiators or have they replaced them by now?
A squadron of ME109 can match Gladiators, but for Hurricanes I would bring 2 squadrons just to be sure.

- the enemy will most likely want to concentrate their defenses to Valetta and it's Grand Harbor, and the 2 airfields. If we threaten any of these spots the British will probably try to move a reserve to the area threatened. The problem is that the distance between the airfields and Valetta is very short. Only 6 km between Valetta and Luqa airfield, and 9 km to the other airfield from Valetta. That is probably less than 10 minutes of driving, and therefore if any of these targets come under attack, the British will be able to quickly redistribute forces to respond to the situation faster than the FJs can get ready for battle. So for a landing close to each of these spots to work, either the FJs must learn to get ready for battle in 5-10 minutes, or they must be dropped in the western parts of the island, which means it'll take long until heavy equipment can be inserted to support them
True, can the Navy bombard the enemy defences without destroying to much of the Airfield and Port?
Also it might be best to drop a company or 2 at the West of the Island as a diversion attack, 15 minutes later or so you can then launch the main assault on 1 or both airfields. I think both small airfields can both take on about 30 Junkers transport planes to transport in extra troops and some equipment.

A question - do we have any kind of ability to drop heavy equipment without needing to control an airfield? I have an idea that might make lack of precision in the drop a nonissue.
afaik not, German gliders couldn't transport guns (or were bad at it) and you can't drop anything by Parachute, the American 82nd did it during Market Garden, but that was when the LZs were fully secured and it was only light artillery .. in pieces.

King Kurt

01-05-2007, 10:37

I think we can overstate the quickness of a response to the initial blow, especially if we do not have a long softening of the defences over several weeks. If the 2 airfields and the grand harbour are subjected to a massive attack at say dawn, followed swiftly by the FJ the defenders will be too shocked to react quickly. Communications will be severely disrupted, infrastructure will be destroyed, we can drop dummy paratroopers all over the island and so on.
We should think of the dive bombers as our heavy weapons and concentrate on how we can best liase with them. Also, I assume that 81mm mortars are air portable and we should aim to get plenty of those in as well.
The one heavy weapon issue is what to do about an AT ability - at Crete a handful of tanks nearly turned the day for the British, so we should have some plans. I'd imagine that the 37mm AT gun could be airported, but it couldn't knock out a Matilda - remember this is early 1941 so no panserfausts etc
The info reported earlier gives the garrison at about 5,000 troops - so we need size our force accoringly. We need to work on how we get troops - probably Italians - on to the island - which means bringing them by sea. We will not take valetta and the Grand harbour without them and we will have to neutralise the Royal Navy to do bring the troops in by sea, so maybe we should concentrate on that as well.:yes:

Warluster

01-05-2007, 10:43

When is Frac' gonna update, why hasnt he updated? Does he usually take this long? I'm getting worried about Red Flood!

Stig

01-05-2007, 12:03

When is Frac' gonna update, why hasnt he updated? Does he usually take this long? I'm getting worried about Red Flood!
Do we need an update every week, no, let him take some time make a good chapter, quality above quantity, not all of us want 20 IHs. Besides we're still discussing.

We need to work on how we get troops - probably Italians - on to the island - which means bringing them by sea. We will not take valetta and the Grand harbour without them and we will have to neutralise the Royal Navy to do bring the troops in by sea, so maybe we should concentrate on that as well.
That's why I suggested bringing troops in transport planes after the airports have been taken. I believe there go 30 men in a Ju52, and that will mean about 1200 men can be flown in on the airports (might take 1 hour tho, but I take it that one Battalion can hold out for so long, British strenght can hardly be more then a division, besides we're elites, they aren't).
Ofcourse this will mostlikely be not enough. But as said the Italians can land,and we can also do a second drop with far more of the division, say about 3000 men.
I doubt the Royal Navy is that strong that they can stop a well escorted fleet without the use of fighterplanes.

Mortars can be brought in by containers I think, so can heavy machineguns.

Rodion Romanovich

01-05-2007, 17:38

Given this new information, my suggestion is the following:

FJs:
- group 1: southwest of the airfields. This should be the main force. They will land east of the main mountain chain, on ground that will be difficult for the British to reach by vehicles. They should receive boxes with MGs and light mortars. Tasks should be: a. seize Hal Far airfield to cover Luftlande insertion, b. launch diversionary and pinning attacks on Luqa airfield, with the task of keeping British forces from advancing past Luqa airfield towards Hal Far airfield by setting up mines, artillery, machineguns and anything else available
- group 2: land north east of the airfields, with the task of securing the free port on the east coast of the island, to support the Italian landings, and in any other way they can support the attacks on the airfields, possibly by advancing on Valetta to cover the other operations and buy them time. They will have a quite high risk of encirclement compared to the other units, so as soon as heavy forces are on the ground, the first offensive will be in their direction
- group 3: land in the western parts of the island, in places where the British are expected to be weakest. Tasks should be to harass, cause confusion, take over cities, fortified positions and any British heavy equipment that can be conquered. If they can, they should advance east and support the operations elsewhere. If they get in trouble they can't handle, they should retreat to the mountains to the south, where the British can't pursue with armor, and go east along the mountain ridge to link up with the southern force.

PLANES:
- bomber force - heavy bombers, torpedo bombers (if that is possible to use against the Grand Harbor), and dive bombers unless we have shortage of them. Targets should include the destruction of the RN ships, and bombing Luqa airfield and roads between Valetta and Luqa airfield.
- anti-aircraft force - fighters. There must be superiority in numbers - preferably 2:1 or better.
- FJ cover force - exclusively consisting of dive bombers, possibly assisted by the fighters after those have completed their objectives. The dive bombers should primarily concentrate on British tanks and other vehicles, and with secondary priority destroy defenses outside Hal Far airfield, and everything at Luqa airfield that needs to be bombed with precision. These dive bombers should preferably be divided in smaller groups that can take turns attacking, so the British will be constantly under fire and can't move from cover to cover

NAVAL INSERTION:
- we need margins so the force of ships sent in here should be much stronger than any force we expect the British to have in the Grand Harbor after our bombardment. As for troops landed, I suggest 10,000 to have vastly superior numbers. Possible landing spots are: the free port on the east coast, the Grand Harbor to the north, and various places on the western part of the island where however smaller landing crafts would be needed to get to the shore

Kagemusha

01-05-2007, 18:24

If we are worried about heavy antitank weapons.I wouldnt,deploy dive bombers,Stukas and they will attack anything on the move.If stationary even better. About the general tactics,now that i have thought more i also think we should abandon the night assault i suggested.Simply becouse it will hamper the air support. We should not give British any warning that we are coming by naval bombardment. What i suggest is to attack and deploy in waves. Preferable time of start would be first light. So we send in the first wave before sunrise so they start to effect the target area at sunrise.

First wave Stuka dive bombers,fighters and naval bombers.

Targets harbours, airfields and AA batteries.

Second wave More attack planes and the the transport planes with the parashooting Fallschirmjäger

target Landing of the Fallschirm and immediate support for their grouping and aswell destroying the remaining British fighters.

Third wave Attack airplanes and transport plains with heavy weapon containers,

The target: The battle ready supporting fallschirmjäger can signal the droppings of heavy weapons with signal smoke.While their assault troops will start the attack of first targets. Naval bombardment of the preplanned targets.

Fourth wave the Landlufte troops once the Fallschirm have taken the airports.The first wave of planes should be already refilled and could attack again with this wave.

Fifth wave the landing of Naval transported troops to areas that Fallschirmjäger have cleared and signaled to be free from enemy.

Warluster

01-05-2007, 23:15

Sorry, I did not mean to be rude, I was just wondering.

Franconicus

01-06-2007, 13:43

Warluster, you were not rude at all. The killing will start soon and I guess it is time to wait for a moment before the murdering begins. That means you have to wait until next week.
I like the discussion very much and I am glad that the community is getting bigger.

Legio: Excellent material about Malta.

Next chapter you`l get more information about the plan for the invasion.
By the way, the Italian big ships are completly knocked out for the moment. There will be no support from the Italian navy besides some submarines.

Keba

01-06-2007, 13:51

By the way, the Italian big ships are completly knocked out for the moment. There will be no support from the Italian navy besides some submarines.

That is not a problem if we have sufficient air support, though it would be nice if they could spare a few destroyers, at least, or even an outdated cruiser or two, since I'm not picky (I know that they still had some WWI-era stuff lying around when the war started).

Though, considering subs, there is a trick I remember hearing about. Now, I think it was in Norway, but can't be sure. The Germans parked a bunch of subs near the shore, during the night of the invasion, infantry teams (saboteours, IIRC) were offloaded, allowing the Germans to cause a lot of confusion when the actual invasion started.

Now, I know Malta is rather small, but having at least some advance units dug in in defensive and tactically important positions once the whole attack starts might be useful in slowing down British responses and even possibly holding up their troops long enough for our heavy hitters to arrive. Granted, that is, if the subs can actually approach the island undetected and get close enough to offload the units.

King Kurt

01-06-2007, 20:04

By the way, the Italian big ships are completly knocked out for the moment. There will be no support from the Italian navy besides some submarines.
Franc
I know the attack on Taranto was good (but I am biased!!) - but heh surely there are a few cruisers and destroyers around - that is what we really need.:2thumbsup:

Franconicus

01-07-2007, 10:49

Right, there are. But the Italian Navy does not have a high fighting spirit, right now. They may promise to support us ...

By the way, there are two issues I am not sure about and I think nobody has mentioned them so far.
The island of Malta is very small. You have maybe 4,000 paras and the Luftlandedivision. Plus 500 Ju52 and a couple of DFS230.
The question 1 is how many paras can you land at a time in a very small area?
Question 2 is the weather. We will operate in winter. The target is a small island. How high is the risk that the German paras end in the sea? Does anybody know about the weather at Malta in February?

Keba

01-07-2007, 11:57

How high is the risk that the German paras end in the sea? Does anybody know about the weather at Malta in February?

A few are bound to end up in the sea. However, though I only have my own climate to judge (I'm from the northern Mediterranean), I'd say that it wouldn't necessarily expose the paras to any real risk. There is a tradition in my town for a swim in the sea on New Year's eve. The water is cold, sure, but not very, usually drifting around 10 degrees celsius.

The real problem is, however, wind. Not snow or rain, but wind, really, it can get nasty. But if it gets that nasty, there's little to worry about, the planes won't be able to fly.:beam:

Stig

01-07-2007, 12:39

The question 1 is how many paras can you land at a time in a very small area?
Loads, all planes start dropping at the same point, not at the same time, that means loads of men can land in small area.

Question 2 is the weather. We will operate in winter. The target is a small island. How high is the risk that the German paras end in the sea? Does anybody know about the weather at Malta in February?
The change is nihil, when doing day-time drops it's easy to drop in the area you want to, almost no overshooting. If the wind is against you, you can see it and turn so the wind favours the para's.

Franconicus

01-08-2007, 16:06

Chapter 31– A New Year
Berlin, 1st – 5th January 1941

Ramcke`s diary:

Another year is over and a new one has begun. 1939 saw the campaign against Poland. 1940 saw our outstanding success against France. Each year there was another blitz with another defeated enemy. This year will see another blitz, bigger than any other before. If it is successful, the Brits will be out of the game. Then there will be peace again!

This time I will be involved!

Christmas was nice. There were no raids from the RAF, only snow falling from the sky. The English gave up attacking Berlin. They concentrate on Italy now.
I celebrated New Years Eve with Student in the RLM. All we were talking about was Malta. The troops are getting ready and the plan is progressing too. The operation is planned for February 5th. If everything goes right.
Since the directive of Hitler we can hardly help ourselves against good advises from all sides. Everybody wants to participate and everyone thinks he is competent. Most say that Malta is not worth the try. Especially Rundstedt keeps on telling everybody that the whole Africa idea is bullshit. We says that we were loosing our tank armies either on the ocean or in the desert sand. He prefers the Turkey route. I pray that these critics will not change Hitler`s decision.

The new year started with a good news. The strength of the German 10th Air Corps in Sicily is now 100 bombers (Ju88 and He111), 60 Ju87 and 20 Bf109 plus some night fighters. 300 additional bombers are on the way. The RAF has only a couple of Hurricanes at Malta

In Berlin... Ribbentrop, the German foreign minister, meets Filov, the Bulgarian prime minister, to discuss arrangements for allowing the passage of German troops across Bulgaria.

Thur, 2.1. In Washington... Roosevelt announces a program to produce 200 7500-ton freighters to standardized designs. They will be known as Liberty ships.

The planning of operation ‘Südsee’ is getting clearer now. Our forces are:
100 bombers (Ju88 and He111), 60 Ju87 and 20 Bf109 plus a number of Me110
500 Ju52 transport planes of the KGzbV1,2,and 3 plus a few tens DFS 230
Luftlande Sturmregiment (4 battalions)
3 FJ-regiments
4 special FJ battalions (pioneer, artillery, machine gun, anti-tank)
the Luftlande Division
Additionally there will be Italian forces (bombers, fighters and two infantry divisions).

The operation `Südsee` takes place on February 5th. 60 bombers, 40 Stukas the transporters and the fighters approach the island of Malta from southern direction with the first light of day. They fly as low as possible.
As a first wave 30 bombers raid Hal Airfield, 30 bombers attack Luqa Airfield. Targets are barracks, communication facilities and air defence batteries. Afterwards the bombers attack Valletta and the Grand Harbor.
At the same time the Fallschirmjäger bail out and the Stukas attack positions around the airfields.

1st Regiment of Oberst Bräuer gets down south of Siggiewi. The 1st Battalion concentrates and seizes Siggiewi, the 2nd Battalion seizes Mqabba, the 3rd Zurrieq.

2nd Regiment, Major Sturm, touches ground near Luqa village. 1st Battalion seizes Luqa village, 2nd Battalion blocks the road between Valletta and Luqa Airfield, and 3rd Battalion seizes Luqa Airfield. 5 transporters, filled with soldiers of the Luftlandedivision, touch ground right on the airfield and support the ground attack.

3rd Regiment, Oberst Heydrich, gets down east, west and north of Hal Airfield, seizes the batteries there and occupies the airfield. Like at Luqa, five transporters with soldiers of the LL Division will support the operation.

The Sturmregiment is kept in reserve.

Once the airfields are seized, the Luftlande Division will reinforce the invasion. The FJ will repel any attack coming from Valletta. 20 Stukas will be continuously over the battleground, 20 more will be in waiting in Sicily in case of emergency. The German and Italian bombers will concentrate their raids on Valletta and Grand Harbor.

As soon as the LL Division arrived, the Germans will seize Velletta. Once the British surrender, the Italians will land an infantry division.
During the whole day 30 bombers will be in waiting to fight any British ship that tries to approach Malta during the invasion.

If everything goes right, Malta will be occupied at the end of the day.

Fri, 3.1. In North Africa... The Allied force, renamed 13th Corps, has been increased. The new force leads the attack on Bardia which now begins. They have considerable tank and artillery support. In addition three battleships of the Mediterranean Fleet also shell the Italian positions. The attack goes in against the west and southwest fortress and progress is very rapid. Around 30,000 prisoners are taken in the first 24 hours.

Sat, 4.1. Albania... The Greeks begin a new offensive. They drive westward toward Valona from their positions in the mountains. The Greeks are, however, outnumbered by the Italians and find it difficult to make significant gains.

Sun. 5.1, North Africa... Bardia is taken along with 40,000 prisoners and large numbers of guns, tanks and other vehicles. General Annibale Bergonzoli is withdrawing toward Tobruk with the still considerable remnants of his force.

Geisler needs orders how to deploy the X. Air Corps:

1, Bomb any British ship that comes in range. This will support the invasion of Malta, help the Italians at Greece and Africa and even support the transport of units of the German Panzergruppe. Maybe we make a lucky punch and sink one of the big ships. This would increase the prestige of the Med. Campaign and give us credits.

2, Bomb Malta! Bomb Grand Harbor and the British ships that are laying there..

3, Transfer planes to Libya to support the Italians there. We have to stop the British invasion before the Italians forces are wiped out completely.

4, Feign death! Do not let the British know that you are there.

Stig

01-08-2007, 16:17

Tough one, but I say option #3 (for now)

We attack Malta because we want to win in North Africa, if we lose there what use does it have in taking Malta?
For option #1: Do the Brits really transport that much in the Med, we should be able to control it with subs, and they know that.
#2: out of the question, it will give our suprise away
#4: might be good, but I'd say #3

SwordsMaster

01-08-2007, 16:19

Number 1 There is no point in having those planes just sitting there. A rapid redeployment is alwas possible if a surprise chance is needed, and operations in the Med are needed anyway. We should concentrate a little more on supporting the italians in Africa, so maybe a redeployment to Malta will be in order once we seize the island.

Franconicus

01-08-2007, 16:31

For option #1: Do the Brits really transport that much in the Med, we should be able to control it with subs, and they know that.

Currently, there are no German subs in the Med. There are a lot of Italian and British though.
The English are very active. Cunningham is supporting the operation of Wavell by shelling the Italians.
Transport go mainly to Malta. We could attack them.

Rodion Romanovich

01-08-2007, 16:45

No. 3, we would be able to take out plenty of British tanks and cripple their advance, as well as make the Italian resistance inflict much heavier losses on the British. If the British continue their advance they'll take huge losses, and if they pull back they'll abandon ground that can be reoccupied by the Italians, including ports important for our advance once we're inserted in Libya.

Taking out British ships is important but is better left until after we've captured Malta, and during the attack on Malta.

Keba

01-08-2007, 19:18

I'd say #3 is the way to go. It will slow down the British advance and give the Italians a chance to hold the line at Tobruk until our own forces disembark.

#1 would be useful, but concentrating on Malta too much might give us away, #2 is out of the question. #4 might even be useful, but it might tip the Brits that something is going down.

I'd say that we send the X. down to Africa and make a big show of it. Make the British think that there are other concerns rather than dropping troops into Africa. Maybe convince the army to start moving units around in France and Normandy, loudly, maybe even the navy to be loud about preparing their surface ships for battle, and, in doing so, convince the Brits that the X. is being sent to keep their forces occupied while Germany prepares for an invasion of the Islands.

Option #1 can be reserved for after Malta. IIRC, the Italians had some rather good torpedo bombers in their airforce, we could even find those useful. But right now, we have to ensure that the situation in North Africa doesn't collapse before we can arrive.

Lord Winter

01-09-2007, 01:04

1. is more of a long-term decision and like leigo I think it would be better to leave it until we split the Mediterranean.
2. Is to loud obviouis like everyone else has said.
3. Sounds promising and the Italians need help, but they have been quick to refuse it in the past.
4. Is out of the question we need to use all our strength if we want to complete the blitz as fast as possible.

So I am going to Vote: 3 for now

Also has hittler given up on the battle of Britten yet? or is that going to occur simultaneously. If it is going as planed the X corps could be put to better use in that operation.

Kagemusha

01-09-2007, 01:15

Im going with option 1.There is always the possibility that the Italians will be completely mauled and i dont want to give our planes to Tommys.

King Kurt

01-09-2007, 11:01

Like Kage, I would go for option 1. The key weapon in the Med is the English fleet, so we must attack it at every opportunity.
I am against option 3. We need the italians - as in real life - to get into real trouble so we can take strategic command over their troops. Wavell will eventually out run his supplies and soon our action in Malta and Greece will distract the English as well. If we put resources into Libya now they will be under Italian control - albeit quite loose control - and will be used up in blunting an offensive which is probably running out of steam. All that will happen will be the loss of some planes to action, accident and poor maintenance so our forces for Malta will be depleted - remember it is only a month away.
Politically we need Italy humiliated so we can dictate to El Duce - so no help until it is on our terms.
Air attacks on the Royal Navy will also discourage them from operating in the central Med which will mean that they will not be so well placed to intervene in the attack on Malta.
Finally - an observation on the proposed plan for the Malta invasion. As a plan it is quite good. As a timetable, it is quite unrealistic. I can not see you taking an island the size of Malta in a day. The garrison may not be great, but it is still 5,000 men - plus anything the locals can gather. Moreover Valetta is a substanial town - medieval in style with significant, but old fortifications. A handful of FJ will not clear that in a few hours. A good comparison would be the defence of Monte cassino (the town, not the actual monastry) where a handful of FJ kept an enormous Allied force at bay for a long time.
Our cause will be served by a bit of a seige with the Royal navy trying to get supplies, troops into Valetta, thus giving our airforce lots of targets under our noses. Remember, the most significant losses inflicted on the Allies during the battle of Crete was on the Royal Navy and was probably the closest they came to having to withdraw from the theatre.:2thumbsup:

Rodion Romanovich

01-09-2007, 11:33

You've persuaded me to change my choice from 3 to 1 ~:)

Franconicus

01-09-2007, 11:35

:book: So it is currently:
4 votes for attacking the RN :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:
3 votes for Libya :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

Warluster

01-09-2007, 11:44

I say option 1

King Kurt

01-09-2007, 17:22

What about our italian frogmen friends - I bet they would like some of the Malta action!!:idea2:

Keba

01-09-2007, 17:50

Politically we need Italy humiliated so we can dictate to El Duce - so no help until it is on our terms.

Though I'd agree with the statement, letting the Italians lose right now is a bad idea. If they lose too much, we'll be in big trouble.

Namely, I'd very much prefer if we retained Tobruk, as it would allow our offensive to reach Alexandria that much sooner. However, the rate the Italians are going, Tobruk will be a goner soon, and I'd prefer not to have Allies in that city when we do land in Africa, since that will stretch our supply lines by a whole lot, and supply lines are vital.

Once we have landed in Africa and have Tobruk as a ressuply base, the RN can be hit with whatever we can spare, but until then, I'd prefer to keep Tobruk in Axis hands.

Franconicus

01-09-2007, 18:08

What about our italian frogmen friends - I bet they would like some of the Malta action!!:idea2:

Right, you can use those frogs. However, the Brits have only some destroyers at Malta. Lately they added some submarines, too. The harbour of Malta is well guarded and it is very likely that it would be a one way trip.

So you can decide if you want a special operation or want to save those guys for a bigger target.

AggonyDuck

01-09-2007, 18:42

Better save the frogmen for Alexandria.

Stig

01-09-2007, 19:17

Better save the frogmen for Alexandria.
If we can get there

Rodion Romanovich

01-09-2007, 19:18

Right, you can use those frogs. However, the Brits have only some destroyers at Malta. Lately they added some submarines, too.

That is good news, then we won't need anything else than transports and a couple of Italian destroyers to carry out a naval landing on Malta when we attack, and keep a few heavy bombers or dive bombers to take out the British surface ships during our attack.

So you can decide if you want a special operation or want to save those guys for a bigger target.
I agree with AggonyDuck here, better save them

It would be great if the Air Corps could manage to sink HMS Ark Royal for us :2thumbsup:

Franconicus

01-10-2007, 09:38

That is good news, then we won't need anything else than transports and a couple of Italian destroyers to carry out a naval landing on Malta when we attack, and keep a few heavy bombers or dive bombers to take out the British surface ships during our attack.
Not so fast, my friend. Of course the British are alert. They have strong positions along the northern coasts with some nice coastal batteries and AAA. If you try to land with transports and destroyers you may have a bad surprise.

Furthermore, the English have big ships in the Med. They have Force H at Gibraltar and Cunningham is somewhere between Alexandria, the Peloponnese and Tobruk. If we are unlucky, there will be a British convoy including an escort just when we assault.

That is the reason why the Italians will only come after the Germans have cleared the beach and harbor.

Kurt, the defense of the Brits is propably focused on Grand Harbor and the northern coast. They do not expect an attack from the south. If you look at the form of the bay, I think it will be hard to make a good line of defense once the Germans attack from the south.

If you look what will happen at Crete (will have had happened??), after the Germans could get reinforcements via the airport the English resistence broke apart. The cities fell quite rapidly. One day is challanging, but not impossible, I guess. And it is cruicial for the plan. As long as the Brits hold Valetta, the can prevent the Italian landing and they can shell the airports!

Franconicus

01-16-2007, 16:55

Chapter 32– Go!
Berlin, 10th January 1941

Ramcke`s diary:

At last, we are in the game! It’s high time. During December the British sent several convoys to supply and reinforce Malta and Greece. Both fleets, the one from Gibraltar and the one from Alexandria were involved.
On Thursday 9th planes of the X. Corps spot a British convoy. First it is attacked by two Italian torpedo boats, one of which is sunk for no loss to the convoy, and then by 40 German Stuka and Ju88 bombers. The carrier Illustrious is hit six times by dive bombers. Warspite dodges several attacks but other ships are also damaged. Illustrious retires to Malta.
This is more than the Italians have achieved. Now we have this damaged carrier within our reach. Propaganda warms up. Hitler gave the order to sink the wounded ship.
Geisler’s Corps does more reconnaissance over the Mediterranean Sea. The Corps has the permission to bomb any ship in range that is not Italian. Additionally, the Corps is training the co-operation with the Italian air force and navy. Geisler also sends his adjutant to Africa to investigate the potential for a deployment there. He has to find out if there is a base for launching a raid against Suez.
Bad news from Africa! Contrary to the promises of the Italian military leaders the British advance without delay. On January 6th the advanced units reach the outer defense of Tobruk after taking El Adem airfield. The Tobruk garrison is 25,000 men with 220 guns and 70 tanks. General Mannella is in command. There are other Italian units still in positions farther west in Libya. On Thursday, 9th, encirclement of Tobruk is completed by the Commonwealth forces.
In Albania the Greek army is gaining ground.
On January 8th the British launch an air raid on Naples by Wellington bombers, the battleship Guilio Cesare is badly hit while moored in the harbor. The Vittorio Veneto is also hit but scarcely damaged. This also affects the German expedition forces as Naples is the embankment harbor. Most likely, the Wellingtons come from Malta.
Intelligence reports, that the British have four infantry battalions on the island. They have poor equipment: 12 wooden tanks, 60 guns from WW1, the transport means are bicycles. Additionally there is the Royal Malta Artillery (RMA) and the King’s own Malta Regiment (KOMR). Most soldiers are placed at the northern shore, where an invasion is expected.

However, 500 new soldiers reached the island lately. In total there may be 6,000 soldiers.

The air defense is weak, but the British increased the number of light guns and search lights.

The coastal batteries are excellent; however, there are only 14. Air defense and coastal batteries are focused around the Valletta area.

The air force consists of maybe a dozen biplanes and some Hurricanes. The last convoy delivered additionally 20 Hurricanes.
The Royal Navy has transferred most ships to Alexandria. There are only few submarines and destroyers.
I will meet Guderian, Hoth, Schmidt and Rommel tomorrow. Before, I have to must reply a new request of Geisler.
According to the order of Hitler, he will attack the carrier at Grand Harbor.
1, The Corps should use this opportunity to attack army facilities at Grand Harbor.
2, The Air Corps should also attack the airports and try to destroy the new British fighters and bombers. They are a threat for the invasion and the Air Corps and have to be eliminated. The British will think that this is a reaction of their latest operations.
3, Attack the carrier and nothing else. Try not to raise dust.

P.S.: Tomorrow will be the meeting with the tank generals. Do you wish to give some input?

Rodion Romanovich

01-16-2007, 17:24

No. 3

SwordsMaster

01-16-2007, 17:31

No 2

Stig

01-16-2007, 17:35

I'm with Legio #3 it is for me

Kagemusha

01-16-2007, 18:10

Its number 3 for me. About the tank commanders,they know their stuff so we shouldnt start telling them how to handle their business.:smash:

King Kurt

01-17-2007, 13:20

Got to be 3 - the aircraft carriers are the lynch pin of the Royal navy and make all the difference. It will not be easy - the Illustrious class were tough cookies with their armoured flight decks - and the AA defences of Valleta will be strong, but the very least that will happen will be to underline the non viability of Malta as a base and hence weaken the resolve of the English to defend it.

SwordsMaster

01-17-2007, 13:47

Well, it will be easier to destroy the surface ships once we take Malta and the brits have one less base and we have one smack in the centre of the sea. Our planes will be able to hunt down and destroy may more vessels and this already damaged carrier will be one of them, specially if we get the italians to block the straits of Gibraltar.

On the other hand, destroying the newly arrived planes will make our invasion easier, might force the brits to send another convoy that we will be able to bomb again, and will be demoralising to the ground troops when they see themselves with no air cover.

Besides, if we take Malta quickly, we might be able to use that airport as a base for hitting the carrier straigh away, before it has a chance to go far from the island, killing two birds with one stone.

Definitely number 2.

Stig

01-17-2007, 14:00

If you start bombing Malta you will give away the suprise, which is essential for a successfull AB operation.

King Kurt

01-17-2007, 14:39

If you start bombing Malta you will give away the suprise, which is essential for a successfull AB operation.
It is nearly a month until the attack - due on the 5th of Feb - so we may give things away by not doing anything. The English will not expect our planes to sit around doing nothing and I am sure that an attack of some sort would be expected the surprize will be the rpecise when and how.
So attacks on the carrier would be expected and we could inflict damage on the fighters by sending the bombers in well protected. Historically Illustrious should leave about the 23 of january - she arrived on time, don't see why shouldn't leave on time!! - so a brief lull then a violent attack early Feb would work well. What about our Italian frogmen friends - aren't they tempted by an aircraft carrier?:smash:

Stig

01-17-2007, 14:48

Aye true, but I'd say stay bombing Malta as we're doing, just to let the Brits get used to this certain routine. And use all other planes to attack anything else (for example a carrier).

Rodion Romanovich

01-17-2007, 15:29

Actually, if we attack Illustrious our bombers will need fighter escorts anyway and if there are bombs left after attacking Illustrious we could probably drop a few on the British planes too, but only as a second priority. If bombing Illustrious doesn't give away the surprise, then destroying a few British fighters in the process won't do so either afaik. However if we attack the British fighters as our first priority and leave Illustrious, we'll give away the surprise for sure. So let's bomb Illustrious first, and destroy British fighters second, only if there's time and ammunition left for it.

JimBob

01-17-2007, 22:00

2) An aircraft carrier is a good enough excuse to bomb a place I think. Then if the pilots happen to drop leftovers on the hangers on the way home, that's just initiative.

And if we can unleash those frogmen on the carrier then we have a completely stationary target to take down. Keep it in port long enough and our FJs can capture the thing.

Franconicus

01-19-2007, 15:05

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/AfricaMap1.jpg

Chapter 33– Sand Table Exercises
Berlin, 11th January 1941

The whole morning Ramcke tries to contact his old friend Roatta of the Italian Special Forces, in vane. Roatta is on an inspection trip.

Ramcke also phones with the X. Corps. Due to the weather there have not been any air raids. Reconnaissance planes found out that two cruisers are in the harbor. Ramcke is worried. First these Hurricanes, now these cruisers! The defense of Malta is getting stronger. There is no need for more bad news.

In the afternoon, Ramcke meets the commanders of the new Panzergruppe, now renamed into ‘Panzergruppe Afrika’: Hoth, commander of the group, Schmidt, commander of the 39. Army Corps (consisting of the 3 PD – Model and the 4.PD - Frh. v. Langermann und Erlencamp), Rommel, commander of the 41. Army Corps (consisting of the 5. leichte Division - Frh. v. Funck, and the 15.PD – Kuhn). Guderian also participates, giving a report about the lessons learned at France:

“Gentlemen, we could gather some information from the France campaign that may be useful for the African operations, too. The British tank forces have several types; most dangerous and most well known one is the Matilda. This so called infantry tank has extraordinary front armour of 90mm, a 2pdr. gun and a machine gun. Its maximum speed is 24 km/h on road and13 km/h off road. Range is 130 km on the road, 95 in the country.

During the Western Campaign we had to learn that nothing, well almost nothing, is able to penetrate the front armour. None of our ATGs or our tank cannons is able to hurt the Matilda’s front area. During the fighting in Northern Africa the Italian tanks were unable to hurt a Matilda. Furthermore, the Matilda could easily destroy every Italian tank. Gentlemen, the Matilda will have to be taken seriously. These will be our most dangerous enemies.”

Ramcke: “Then what has to be done? We finally defeated those Matildas, didn’t we?”

Guderian: “Yes we did. There is a weapon that can destroy the Matilada from the front. Ironically, it is an air defence gun, the 8.8 flak; extremely effective against any kind of tank even at long range. Unfortunately, we will have only few. However, there are other ways to fight the Matilda. Bombs are good; Stukas killed quite a lot. Mines may help, too. But of course the tank regiments have to be able to fight this armoured enemy all by themselves.

If we compare the Matilda with the Panzer III, we see that our tank has a smaller gun, but a higher fire rate; plus a higher accuracy. This compensates these disadvantages. In Belgium some British tank crews gave up because of our bullets permanently hit their tank; despite the fact that they did no harm. Furthermore, the IIIs are faster and more mobile. Our crews have better training, better leadership and last but not least better fighting spirit.

In the past we were able to outmanoeuvre the Matilda and to destroy it from the side or back. Panzer III has a speed of 40 km/h on the road, much faster than the Matildas. Its radius off road is almost 100 km.

I think we learned our lessons. We started up-gunning the Panzer III with a 5 cm gun instead of a 3.7 mm gun. This is a significant improvement, but most of our tanks still have the small gun. We also introduced a new vehicle, a so-called Sturmgeschütz III. It can give close support to the infantry and will also have a potential to fight tanks with its 7.5 cm gun.”

“News about the English tanks?”

“Well, as I said before, the Matilda has now a 2pdr. gun.
Another tank that has not appeared is the Valentine II. It is currently produced in high numbers in Canada and will soon enter the war. We know little about this tank, but it will probably have the same 2pdr. gun as the Matilda.
There is also the Crusader, a tank with a 40 mm gun. Top speed is 40 km/h on the road. He is the only British tank that has the same speed as our Panzer III.
Another vehicle, that may be very valuable for desert war is the Bren Gun Carrier, an armoured personnel carrier.
The reconnaissance units are equipped with a Daimler Scout Car. It has only light weapons.”

Ramcke: “This time we will fight in the desert. What are the consequences for our strategy?”

Guderian: “There are several consequences. In my opinion, it will lead to a very pure form of the Blitzkrieg, with all consequences. First of all, it is almost impossible to install a continuous front in the desert. There will always be gaps and the southern flank will always be open. There will be some fortified positions, forts, fountains, crossings etc.. However, they will stand or fall with supply.

In the desert, there is little covering. The enemies will see each others; engagements will start at long range. Reconnaissance will be most important; our divisions have extra recon units. They are equipped with the Panzerspähwagen 222. With its 2mm gun he should be able to defeat its British counterpart.

The terrain is ideal for the Luftwaffe. The enemy will not be able to hide his movements, there will be almost no covering and the distance is far too big to cover everything with air defence artillery.”

Ramcke: “What are the consequences for our strategy?”

Guderian: “I think our tank divisions should bypass the British positions and operate in the rear of the enemy. There they can destroy the supply and command structure of the enemy. We should leave the fortified positions to our Italian allies. They have infantry and artillery. Our tanks have to advance, as fast as possible. Speed is the best armour. They will need air support;
Stukas will trade off our lack of artillery.”

Ramcke: “What are the threats?”

Guderian: “The desert may become our worst enemy. Supply is the key issue and most important. Although it is obvious, I cannot emphasise that enough. We have to deliver everything from Italy, men, equipment, spare parts, fuel, food, even water. You cannot get anything in the desert. The speed of our advance will depend on the supply. Therefore, supply will be the decisive key in our strategy. There is even the risk of loosing a unit in the desert, just because they run out of water and fuel.”

Ramcke: “What else?”

Guderian: “We do not know how our equipment works in the desert. There will be depletion, we simply do not know how much. We should care about that and have enough spare parts and maintenance.
Another issue is navigating in the desert. Again something we have no experience. This is certainly an advantage.”

“So our strategy should be to break through the British lines and push in their rear. If you were the British general, what would you do?”

Hoth: “I think we all have the same opinion. He should try to slow the advance and weaken our forces by ATG fire and bombs. He should try to cut off the supply and the have mobile tank formations behind the front to stop and destroy our tanks.”

Ramcke: “And what could we do?”

Rommel: “There are two options: We can either attack and destroy these tanks …”

Schmidt: “… or bypass them too. Do not forget that our biggest advantage is our speed!”

Guderian: “Yes! The speed of our tanks, but also the reaction speed of our commanders. You can rely on the fact that they have higher skills and will do the right thinks while their opponents are still waiting for new orders.”

“How will we behave if our tanks meet British tanks?”

Rommel: “Attack them! Destroy them.”

Ramcke: “What is the schedule for the transfer to Africa?”

Hoth: “The 5. Leichte Division will be shipped to Tripolis early February. The 15. PD will follow two months later. Two divisions of the 39. Korps will arrive later. They still get new equipment. Their deployment depends on the transport capacity.”

Ramcke: “When are we ready to attack? And where are we going to deploy our troops?”

Guderian: “My proposal is to wait near Tripoli until at least one corps arrived. We should also stock the supply there. Then we can start our invasion with maximum strength and speed.”

Rommel: ”I disagree! Let’s stop the British as soon as possible. Before they defeat the rest of the Italian army. We should deploy our troops near El Agheila. I doubt that the British have organized their supply after their rapid advance. Maybe there is a chance to throw them back. We must take Benghazi as soon as possible. This is a very important airport; we could use to bomb the channel. Tobruk is even more important. It is the only harbour where we can land our supply for the advance to Egypt.”

Guderian: “No, we should not use our divisions without a proper preparation. Let’s deploy the first two completely. There is little the British can do about it.”

Which strategy would you prefer?
A1. Deploy your troops near Agheila and attack if the British are week.
A2. Deploy your forces without hurry. The stronger will be your attack and the sooner we will be at Alexandria.”

While the discussion is still going on, Ramcke receives a teletype message. It contains the bad news Ramcke has already anticipated. 22. Airborne Division is stranded at Romania. According to a Führer order they have to protect the oil fields until another infantry unit can take their place. With respect of the current transport capacities, it can not be foreseen when this could be.

Ramcke discusses this with Student. There are 4 options:

B1. Postpone the invasion of Malta until the 22. is available.
B2. Try to replace the 22. with a German Infantry Division. Those soldiers will not have the adequate equipment or training, but the delay would only be six weeks.
B3. Try to get support of an Italian Infantry Division. This may complicate things, but the estimated delay would only be two weeks.
B4. Do it without infantry. There is still the Sturmregiment, your reserve, you can use to take the airports and to support the attack. Then there would not be any delay.

Kagemusha

01-19-2007, 15:18

As you can see.We made a mistake by not giving Guderian the command of the army.He outshines Hoth completely,altough im happy he is present.Il give my answers wee bit later.

AggonyDuck

01-19-2007, 15:33

Which strategy would you prefer?

A2. Deploy your forces without hurry. The stronger will be your attack and the sooner we will be at Alexandria.”

Here I prefer no half-arsed measures. Better to be the strong with proper stocks of supplies.

Ramcke discusses this with Student. There are 4 options:

B4. Do it without infantry. There is still the Sturmregiment, your reserve, you can use to take the airports and to support the attack. Then there would not be any delay.

To me B was the more problematic one. It was a decision between B1 and B4. The problem with B1 is that it will allow the British time to reinforce and build up the defences. Better to strike with weaker forces when the Brits themselves are proportionally weaker, than wait for the Luftlande and attack while the British are proportionally stronger. Neither the Italian nor the German replacement division is a proper replacement for the excellent 22.Luftlande-division.

Btw what are the Brandenburgers going to do? Are they going to be sent to North Afrika with the 'Panzergruppe Afrika'?

AggonyDuck

01-19-2007, 15:45

As you can see.We made a mistake by not giving Guderian the command of the army.He outshines Hoth completely,altough im happy he is present.Il give my answers wee bit later.

Hoth is an excellent general. His leadership of the 4th Panzer Army during 1942-43 was by all standards excellent. What this discussion showed was that Guderian is just prone to take a dominant position in a discussion. Guderian is to a degree a brilliant one man propaganda machine, which Hoth simply isn't. As generals I'd say they're actually pretty equal. What worries me about this conversation is the fact that Rommel is his usual self. He is prone to disobey orders and is awfully impetious, so I just hope Hoth can keep him under control.

King Kurt

01-19-2007, 15:59

The first option, I believe, is easy - A2 we should not rush into action until we are ready.
The second decision is more difficult. After some thought, I think we should wait for the 22nd so B1. The reasoning is that this force will be the best suited for the task, so the delay is worth it to get the best troops. Also, during the delay, I can't see the Malta defences being built up too much, especially with the arrival of our troops in North Africa and our planned actions in the balkans - any reserves will be sent there as opposed to Malta. To the english, the value of Malta has not increased, so I can't see them risking valuable naval units to escort convoys to Malta - there will plenty of other things for them to do. The only worry would be an increase in the air defences and I think our airforce could nulify that. The only caveat I would put on that choice is that the delay should not be too long - we would want to invade Malta by say May to keep to Hitler's original timetable of doing this all during 1941 - perhaps we should be working in parallel with a German infantry division as in A2 so that force could substitute in say late April if the 22nd hasn't made it from Roumania. Finally we should be sending small cadres from the FJ with the troops to North Africa to gather info on methods, weapons of the British.:2thumbsup:

Rodion Romanovich

01-19-2007, 18:23

Although A1 is very tempting, A2 is probably best. There is after all a risk that the British will be able to quickly regroup and strike El Agheila faster than we expect. A2 is the safe option, A1 is only slightly more risky IMO, but I prefer starting the campaign safely even if we lose some important positions.

And then I'd like to choose B4. B4 in my opinion means:
- no decreased strength in the Malta operation compared to the other options. The other options means inserting other infantry units, while B4 means committing a reserve unit of land troops. Seeing as we have no other major land operation such as Fall Gelb or Barbarossa going on at the moment, there isn't really any risk in deploying this reserve unit.
- if this plan for capturing Malta won't work, the other plans won't either, since the other plans would involve comparable troop strength to that in B4. More time just means better British defenses, more reinforcements, etc.
- faster completion of the Malta operation than any of the other plans, and the earlier we take Malta, the better the entire rest of our campaign in the Med will go. Holding Malta allows better covering of our convoys, as well as easy blocking of any British emergency convoys through the Med to Alexandria.
- no greater risk than any of the other options would mean

Basically, if B4 doesn't work for capturing Malta, then none of the other options will. Everything now depends on what medium level strategical and tactical plans we use for the operation.

Stig

01-19-2007, 19:15

I'd say A1, for the reason Legio mentioned, it's tempting

Also B4 for reasons mentioned (if B4 doesn't work for capturing Malta, then none of the other options will)

AggonyDuck

01-19-2007, 19:29

- no decreased strength in the Malta operation compared to the other options. The other options means inserting other infantry units, while B4 means committing a reserve unit of land troops. Seeing as we have no other major land operation such as Fall Gelb or Barbarossa going on at the moment, there isn't really any risk in deploying this reserve unit.

The Sturmregiment is actually the gliderborne part of the 7th Flieger Division, not a separate unit. It was originally planned to be in reserve for the operation, so using it really doesn't take it away from other operations. The only bad side with B4 is the lack of any reserves for the operation, but I think the 7th Flieger should just be enough to tackle Malta and its defenders.

DemonArchangel

01-19-2007, 20:10

A2, we can wait a bit for the campaign, there's no rush.

B4, we have to take Malta, we have to take Malta NOW, before the British reinforce the island any more than they're already doing. If possible, try to obtain extra air support.

And have the 75mm recoilless guns I asked for earlier been delivered? Has the parachute and the weapons drop problem been remedied? Do the paratroopers jump with their weapons now at least?

AggonyDuck

01-19-2007, 21:08

And have the 75mm recoilless guns I asked for earlier been delivered? Has the parachute and the weapons drop problem been remedied? Do the paratroopers jump with their weapons now at least?

I don't think Oberst Ramcke has got a chance to say anything about the equipment. I'd figure that earliest possible date for such equipment suggestions would be after the Malta drop.

Kagemusha

01-20-2007, 04:32

A2 and B4

Franconicus

01-23-2007, 10:34

And have the 75mm recoilless guns I asked for earlier been delivered? Has the parachute and the weapons drop problem been remedied? Do the paratroopers jump with their weapons now at least?
They had and still have the 7.5cm gun. They can drop it via para. There are no changes of the paras or the equipment, though.

So the options are

Slow Rommel down until at least one corps is ready.
Attack the island without paras only.

King Kurt

01-23-2007, 10:53

The tide seems to be going with B4, but I still think it would be better to wait. It is still winter - admittedly in the Med, but still prone to high winds and rain - and we have no reserves. if it goes wrong, the FJ is finished for the war - Crete finished the FJ as an airbourne force and they won that one!! so we must ensure that the operation is perfect and well supported. Malta is not likely to be extensively reinforced in the next few months as the English have plenty of other things to resolve before they reinforce a base which is basically untenable - as evidenced by their withdrawal of all major units as soon as war began. So let's not throw away our best asset - and end our hero's career with a rash, hurried, unsupported attack - the FJ are good, but they are not supermen:2thumbsup:

Franconicus

01-23-2007, 10:59

There is another thing I would like you to think about. The English are currently very busy sending support convoys to Malta or Greece. These are guarded by the fleets of Gibraltar and Alexandria. Think what may happen if we land on Malta and there is a convoy nearby. Will the English risk their battleships? Will they tear the paras limb from limb?

Kagemusha

01-23-2007, 11:05

Hmmm...It seems there are hanging clouds of disaster over our plans.Im changing my mind to B 2.

DemonArchangel

01-23-2007, 14:21

I'm changing my mind to B2 as well, but with one variation: We use the planes and XaMAS to hit the British convoys going into Malta and Greece in support of the invasion of Greece, so that Greece, the Balkans etc. can be taken more easily. The quicker the Greece operation is done, the quicker it is we can get more airplanes freed up to invade Malta.

Stig

01-23-2007, 14:40

If I would change I would change to B1.
The Replacement Infantry Division will never be able to parachute in, so most likely they will have to wait till they can be shipped in, and it takes long before that happens.
It's impossible to use more then roughlt said an entire division on Malta, there's no space for it.

The plan is more or less this:
-Drop FJ at all the 4(?) targets.
-Bring in reinforcements in the form of the air in the form of the 22nd.
-Secure the island for a couple of hours till the Italians arrive.

Now that 22nd won't be able to come, but the problem is is that no Infantry division is trained like a Luftlande Division and they will never be able replace them, as they aren't able to act as quickly and on own initiative. Ofcourse this might be an exception but you never know.

If you want replacements, I suggest we try to get a Jaeger Regiment or other, they are used to work in terrains as Malta and are elite

Franconicus

01-23-2007, 14:50

The 22nd LL Div. is more a less a normal infantry division of the army. Only differences is that they are trained for fast air transport and they have no heavy equipment (trucks, artillery etc.)

Of course they can be replaced by any other infantry division. This one will be slower and have to leave the heavy equipment behind.

The plan is that the FJ land and secure the airfields and block the sortie of La Valetta. The LL would support this with landing a smaller groups right at the airfields. Plus, they would come once the airports are taken - via plane.

The alternative plan would be to do it without an extra army division. The Sturmregiment would take the part of landing with the airplane straight on the airfield, then support the FJ and assault the town and harbor. PLAN B4

P.S. The supply for Greece is coming from Alexandria. The convoys split, one part goes to Greece, the other part goes to Malt. There are other fast convoys from Gib to Malta.

Alright, the first option is clear:
A1: 1 vote - A2: 5 votesThe other one ????
B1: 2 votes, B2: 2 votes, B4: 2 votes
Maybe we wait for warluster and Kraxis. They may vote for B3:2thumbsup:

Stig

01-23-2007, 14:57

The 22nd LL Div. is more a less a normal infantry division of the army.
Well yes and no.
Yes, airlanding units come from normal infantry units yes (take the British units in WW2, all the units in the 1st Airlanding Brigade were infantry units till it was formed)
No, they've had atleast 1,5-3 years of training to get them on the level they are on, no normal infantry division can replace that. Some of the soldiers in infantry divisions have never been in a plane.

Stig

01-23-2007, 14:58

A1: 1 vote - A2: 5 votesThe other one ????
B1: 2 votes, B2: 2 votes, B4: 2 votes
no B4 has 3 votes, I haven't changed. I that if I would change I would change to B1, but I didn't

King Kurt

01-23-2007, 15:50

Franc

Could you remind us of relative strengths for the Malta decision - i.e. Malta garrison estimated as.... men, FJ forces if as per B1 .... men, FJ forces as per B4..... men. I think that might help our decision - I know that the info is probably buried in the thread, but I am sure you have the info to hand!!

And Stig - can't I tempt you to the B1 side??? - you know you want to!!!:yes:

Rodion Romanovich

01-23-2007, 20:00

The threat of British convoys to Malta will always be present, both now and later. We need to compensate for them no matter which plan we choose. Best thing would probably be to keep bombers in reserve for a second wave. They should be loaded with ammo and fuel and kept in a state of high readiness to take off to attack the ships.

This means we need to work out a careful schedule for how to insert our formations of planes - that will be the key to success in our operation:
- we will need the initial wave of bombers to carry the FJs. How many bombers will they need? Will it be possible to keep some in reserve for bombing British ships from the beginning of the operation? Or - how fast can our bombers after dropping the FJs get home, rearm, refuel and then be ready to attack British ships? If this goes fast enough, we don't need to assign special planes for an anti-ship formation
- maybe an anti-ship formation, see above
- we need a quite large first wave of fighters and dive bombers to take out British fighters and cover the bombers holding the FJs. This formation could return home to rearm and refuel as soon as enough of the British fighters have been put out of action. How many planes of each type do we need for this formation?
- before they retreat, we need a second wave to already be there. It should have fewer fighters than the first one, since the British will by then have lost many fighters (how many, is something we need to make a proper judgement of, with some safety margins in case things go wrong in the attack of the first wave). It should however have more dive bombers than the previous wave, to support the FJs on the ground.
- we will also need a third wave ready when the second one retreats. Would it be possible to rearm and refuel planes from the first wave for this, or will we need additional planes kept in reserve? IMO we need to have the capability of constant presence of own fighter superiority until all British fighters have been put out of action. Additionally a constant presence of dive bombers (5 or so is probably enough) during the entire first day to prevent the British from moving from cover to cover
- finally, we will need scout planes. A couple of them to check for arriving British ships/convoys. Another couple of scout planes to help the ground troops in spotting once we've inserted our artillery on the ground. The artillery will be inserted during the first hour, so these scout planes should probably arrive about 30 minutes after the first wave of planes. We will probably need a few scout planes in reserve to be able to replace the ship scouts once they need to return home to refuel.

How many planes do we need to solve this, do you think? For how long are our planes capable of staying in the air? And how far away (in travelling time) are the airbases we launch the operations from?

AggonyDuck

01-23-2007, 20:42

Legio, one thing. The Ju-52's are by this time full time transport airplanes and although they were bombers too, using them for that role would be risky.

As to the 22nd Infantrie Division (Luftlande). Manstein held a very high opinion of the division and ranked it among the best German divisions in the Eleventh Army. He seems to often use the word valiant when talking about the division.

Franconicus

01-24-2007, 10:21

Could you remind us of relative strengths for the Malta decision - i.e. Malta garrison estimated as.... men, FJ forces if as per B1 .... men, FJ forces as per B4..... men. I think that might help our decision - I know that the info is probably buried in the thread, but I am sure you have the info to hand!!
Malta Garrison:
Intelligence reports, that the British have four infantry battalions on the island. They have poor equipment: 12 wooden tanks, 60 guns from WW1, the transport means are bicycles. Additionally there is the Royal Malta Artillery (RMA) and the King’s own Malta Regiment (KOMR). Most soldiers are placed at the northern shore, where an invasion is expected.

However, 500 new soldiers reached the island lately. In total there may be 6,000 soldiers.

The air defense is weak, but the British increased the number of light guns and search lights.

The coastal batteries are excellent; however, there are only 14. Air defense and coastal batteries are focused around the Valletta area.

The air force consists of maybe a dozen biplanes and some Hurricanes. The last convoy delivered additionally 20 Hurricanes. They also received Wellington bombers.

German Forces:
The Germans have 17 FJ battalions
(3 regiments with 3 bats each, the Sturmreg with 4 bats, 1 anti tank, 1 art, 1 MG and 1 eng. bat.). Not all have full strength, but in total you have 10,000 Fallschirmjäger.

Stig

01-24-2007, 10:23

That should easely do it

King Kurt

01-24-2007, 12:30

I would suggest that all advocates of diving into malta without reserves have a look at the Wiki article on the Battle of Crete - similar circumstances in that the germans just outnumbered the Allies (when you take the large number of Allied troops not in a position to fight into account) - result significant casualties and Hitler didn't let the FJ do another airbourne operation.

Stig

01-24-2007, 13:20

I know all about it ... but at Cret the Brits had atleast 15,000 men if I'm right.
And we do have reinforcements. The Italians will land after us won't they?

Franconicus

01-24-2007, 13:23

The Italian will come after the battle is over.

Stig

01-24-2007, 13:28

Yes, but the battle should be easely won ... we just have to keep the element of suprise:
-you don't expect a Airborne assault in the winter
-you attack all the strategic positions at once
-they will be stunted by the sight of 10,000 men falling from the sky

Franconicus

01-24-2007, 16:47

You would help me a lot, if you come to a decision!:whip:

Stig

01-24-2007, 17:26

You would help me a lot, if you come to a decision!:whip:
What do you mean?
It's 3 for B4, 2 for B2, 1 for B1

Franconicus

01-25-2007, 08:46

Chapter 35– Illustrious
Naples, 20th January 1941

Now that the fighting has begun, Ramcke cannot stay at Berlin any longer. He flies to Naples and Catania to be close to the events. He also informs the Fallschirmjäger about the changes of the operational plan.

The X. Air Corps starts the attacks against the wounded carrier. These raids go on with increased intensity and grow to a real battle.
On Saturday, 11th, two British cruisers leave Malta for Gibraltar. They are spotted and attacked by the Air Corps. Although the two ships have strong air defense artillery, the German war birds fall from the sky and make their strikes. One cruiser is damaged, the other is sunk.
In reply British aircrafts based on Malta attack Catania airfield on Sicily in an attempt to prevent German and Italian planes from attacking Malta while temporary repairs are carried out on the crippled aircraft carrier Illustrious. 6 planes are destroyed.
On Thursday, 16th there are massive German and Italian attacks on Malta and especially the damaged carrier Illustrious. A force of about 80 Stuka dive-bombers attacks, escorted by several Me110. They are welcomed by strong air defense fire. Obviously the British have concentrated the anti air artillery around the harbor. The sky over whole bay is flecked with the clouds of exploding shells. Although 10 German divers are shot down, they hit the carrier again as well as the cruiser Perth and a freighter. The Italian bombers join the battle. Although they attack from high altitude they suffer bad casualties. Their bombs are very imprecise. The harbor facilities are hit.
Three days later bombs detonating nearby damage the Illustrious again. There is a lot of smoke in the harbour and it is impossible to see how badly the carrier is damaged.
The battle of Malta is flanked by submarine and mine warfare. British submarines sink the Italian ships Palma (2715 BRT), Valdivagna (5400 BRT), and Parthian as well as the Carla Martinolich (4208 BRT) and the steamboat Città di Messina (2472 BRT). The Italian destroyers Vivaldi, Malocello, Da Noli, Tarigo and the T-Boats Vega and Sagittario lay the mine barriers X.2 and X.3, 180 mines each, north of Cap Bon. The Italian submarine Neghelli (Kptlt. Ferracuti) torpedoes the transport ship Clan Cumming (7264 BRT) out of a British convoy bound for Piraeus. Afterwards it is sunk by the British escort.
Rancke finally manages to meet Roatta. His friend tells him that several teams are passing their training programs. One team prepares an operation against the British ships at the Suda bay. The raid will be done with 6 SMS (small motor assault boats) in May. Another operation is planned using three manned torpedoes against Gibraltar in May. There is also the team of Major Tesei. He is preparing to attack Valletta with two manned torpedoes (SLC) and ten MTMs speedboats (Motoscafo da turismo modificato), carrying explosives. Originally, the operation was planned for July. Obviously, this will be too late. Roatta thinks about other targets for this team.
The preparation is anything but finished and the defence of Malta is very strong. However, it is not impossible, that the mission will be successful. The Italian Staff would support any proposal. The navy has the order to support the attacks as good as possible.
Options:
1) Ask for a special operation against the carrier immediately. Although there is a risk that the enterprise will fail, the price is worth it.
2) Safe the special operation team. There will be other objectives easier to attack.

King Kurt

01-25-2007, 10:02

2 - save them for another day - the harbour is obviously at a state of high alert so the chances of a success are slim - better to wait for an opportunity when the English are less on their guard. Also, the carrier has taken a good deal of damage and will need to be moved soon. Their will be better opportunities to attack it and its escorts when they move - witness the attack on the 2 cruisers - so let us wait for that opportunity.

Kagemusha

01-25-2007, 10:03

I agree with Kurt.Option 2.There is no element of suprise there at the moment.

Rodion Romanovich

01-25-2007, 10:12

I agree with King Kurt, no. 2 it is. The Italian frogmen should be saved for Alexandria, as someone (AggonyDuck?) suggested a few chapters ago. They're a good weapon and the first time they act should have the element of surprise, and attack a target that is larger, so that they do some more damage than just sink a single already damaged carrier.

Interesting with the AA at Malta. It seems like the invasion will be a lot tougher than first expected, if our planes will suffer such casualties.

Stig

01-25-2007, 13:03

Yes, 2 it is for me too

DemonArchangel

01-25-2007, 15:20

Option #2 for me, and since we're going to land (Option B4) soon enough, at least we know where the points of resistance are.

Franconicus

01-25-2007, 15:45

Chapter 36– Final Preparations
Naples, 30th January 1941

Ramcke tells Roatta that there is no need for an overhasty operation. He tells him to plan and prepare the special operations independently.

Although the days are filled with work, Ramcke has the feeling as if the time goes slower than normally. He is aching to take a hand in the events.
The news about the activities of the British submarines and bombers is alarming. Ramcke calls the RLM to accelerate the transfer of more fighter planes.

The news from Africa is more than alarming. The Italian retreat turns into a disaster.

The British start to attack Tobruk. Since the 7th Armored Brigade is heading for Martuba and Mechili the town is already isolated. On February 21st ships of the RN shell the Italian positions around the town. Afterwards the 6th Australian Division breaks through the Italian positions and takes Fort Palastrino. General Mannella is captured.

One day later the garrison of Tobruk surrenders. The British make 27,000 prisoners. They loose 500 men. The Italian Navy has done nothing to rescue this important harbour.

The X. Corps receives a report about the situation at Benghazi, the most important airport of the Italians. The Italian organisation is dissolving. Panic spreads among the rear echelons.
In Eritrea the Italian forces are falling back toward Agordat in the face of Platt's attacks. There is also some skirmishing along the border between Kenya and Italian Somaliland.

At January 24th there is a brief tank engagement near Mechili. The British 4th Armored Brigade and the Italian force suffer about equal losses before the Italians retire. The Italian forces in Libya are now split, with one group around Mechili and one on the coast at Derna. These positions do not give each other any support. The 19th Australian Brigade is moving on Derna while Mechili is to be encircled by 4th and 7th Armored Brigades. The blockade of Mechili is carelessly handled and the Italians pull out.

On Thursday 30th, the Australians take Derna.

Ramcke sighs. If this goes on this way, there will be no place left to land the German troops at Africa.

There is a call from Geisler’s office. The Illustrious is gone. First the pilots think she foundered. However, now they received message that she is on the way to Alexandria. Ramcke sighs again. Göring will fume, he thinks.
At least the German Fallschirmjäger arrive at their bases. Soon they will be ready for the most audacious airborne operation in history. The X. Corps already increases the number of reconnaissance flights. The first units of the 5th Leichte Div. arrive at Naples, too. Rommel wants to transfer some air defence and recon detachments first.

Finally there is some good news from the Italians, too. The Italian army starts a counterattack at Albania. It is slightly successful near Klisura.

Then all fortune is gone. Ramcke receives the weather report for the coming week. For the 5th, the weathermen expect closed cloud cover at low altitude, strong wind and occasionally heavy rain. There will be a gap between the clouds, but it is uncertain when it will be over Malta. Some forecasters think that it may be in the morning hours, some say that it will be later.

What to do?

A1) Postpone operation ‘Südsee’ for a week. Then the weather may be better.
A2) Execute the operation now. The weather will be fine enough. By the way, what do weathermen know about weather?

Ramcke also receives a phone call from the Luftflotte 4, which is currently deploying at Romania. The commander, General Sperrle, has planned a special operation. He wants to transfer a couple of bombers temporarily to Rhodes, from where they could reach the Suez Canal and drop mines. It would be some kind of risky, and Sperrle does not plan to do it twice. He asks you for you opinion. If you agree, the operation will take place within a week.

B1) Accept!
B2) Reject!

Stig

01-25-2007, 15:52

Going on the critical situation in Africa I would say: A2, Malta is important if we want to safely land our men in Africa.
But sensibly I would say A1, tho a week might be too much, I would go for the next day, or the day after that.
If it's possible to find the landing zones WITH EASE, I'd say A2, if that's impossible it's A1 for me.

And ofcourse it's B1

Franconicus

01-25-2007, 15:55

Kagemusha

01-25-2007, 15:58

Damned, Franc you are on fire!:2thumbsup: Answers A1 AND B1.:bow:

Stig

01-25-2007, 15:58

:dizzy2:
:bounce:

Rodion Romanovich

01-25-2007, 16:33

With the new weather, operation Südsee sounds like it would become operation Suicide if it isn't postponed... ~:) So: A1 and B1 (we can afford to lose the bombers if there are only 2 of them)

DemonArchangel

01-25-2007, 16:42

A1, B1.

AggonyDuck

01-25-2007, 17:26

Definately A1 for me. We need good weather to ensure both safe landings and air support. Even if we might find a day with good weather, we would need a longer period of fine weather to ensure proper air support.

King Kurt

01-25-2007, 18:03

:2thumbsup: Nice to see that the carrier went when I said!!:2thumbsup:

Has to be A1, B1 - aren't we agreeing a lot at the moment!!:laugh4:

JimBob

01-26-2007, 06:17

A1 and B1. The flak being concentrated could very well be a good thing. At least we know where it is and can avoid it better.

Franconicus

01-26-2007, 11:46

Chapter 37– Waiting for the sun
Naples, 7th February 1941

Days pass by with painful slowness. The weather is rainy and stormy. Ramcke is frustrated that even the KG4, located on the Balkans, enters the war in the Med while he is sentenced to passivity. Seven He 111 of the 2./KG.4 under the command of Hauptmann Kühl drop mines into the Sues Canal. The operation is executed according plan. The planes return to their bases.
Within a week, two freighters sink in the channel. The authorities close it. Three days later British bombers attack the base on Rhodes.

February begins with the report of a German reconnaissance patrol. It spots a British formation with two battleships, one carrier, one cruiser and ten destroyers coming from Gibraltar. On February 2nd, 8 swordfish planes attack the dam of Tirso (Sardinia). Despite of fierce defence they hit it three times. Although damaged, the dam does not break.

Stormy whether prevents any successful operation against the British force. The English ships return to the harbour of Gibraltar on February 4th. Italian submarines, send to stop them, cannot find the enemy.

There are also several English submarines operating between Malta and Libya. Due to the weather, there is no combat operation.

Intelligence reports that the British carrier Formidable with a destroyer escort is in the Indian Ocean heading for Sues.

Ramcke is getting more and more nervous. He does not like these British activities. Do they just want to demonstrate that they rule the waves even since the X. Corps is there or do they know something about the planned operation?

The situation in Africa is getting more and more depressing. The Italians leave the Cyrenaica. They are not retreating, they are running. They are so fast, that the British cannot keep pace. Benghazi is taken by Australian units following the Italian retreat. The Italian forces are streaming back along the coast road to Beda Fomm and during the day they make desperate attacks on the British blocking force there. These attacks are repulsed with heavy loss but the small British force is compelled to give some ground.

On Friday 7th large-scale surrenders begin at Beda Fomm after the Italians have made fruitless attempts to break through to continue their retreat. Eventually about 25,000 more Italians will be taken, along with 200 guns and 120 tanks. Since the start of the campaign two months previously a force of no more than two divisions has destroyed 10 Italian divisions and taken 130,000 prisoners for the loss of 555 dead and 1400 wounded. Many of the British vehicles now desperately need repairs. In the evening Agedabia falls to the British forces.

The 1st convoy of the Panzergruppe Africa will leave Naples on February 8th.
The new weather reports say that between February 8th and February 12th there will be less clouds. Wind will still be strong, sometimes mixed with rain.
Ramcke receives the message from the Italian intelligence. The outpost near Gibraltar sent the message that 2 battleships, one carrier, one cruiser and six destroyers left Gibraltar during the night from February 6th to 7th. They sail west to support guard convoy HG.53.

1) This is an opportunity to start the operation. Give order to assault on February 8th.
2) Wait!