Red Flood

[JimBob]

re you guys living in some alternative universum,or is it just me? I wonder how many of you guys have ever served in military? If OKW has decided that war with Soviet Union will commense and has also given you direct order to get on the arabian oilfields on certain date,how can you abandon Turkey?When first it can give you access to the oilfileds without so much as firing a shot and second offers the shortest route to the Soviet oilfields? Do you want to wage war in Egypt just for the heck of it,when Syria gives you roads and terrain to use your superior numbers? Franc how is Sweden reacting now that Finland happily gave away its freedom to Soviet Union,as if Winter War never happened? I hope you are aware that Sweden send a volunteer army to northern Finland during winter war.
1) We already have a breakthrough in Egypt. We don't need another front
2) We don't need another front, the Wehrmacht was stretched enough when the front was from the Baltic to the Black. Taking it to the Caspian might be too much.
3) Turkey would require massive redeployments, which we don't have time for.
4) The Soviets will get tied down in Turkey. The terrain is favorable for partisans and will tie down Soviet divisions.
5) Those same divisions could be destroyed later in a massive encirclement from the south, if we reach the Mid East, then we have a short route to Soviet oil as well as being able to then dig into the Caucuses and effectively trap whole Soviet armies in Turkey. We can make Kiev look down right useless.
6)Why don't we let the USSR be the bad guys. They invade Turkey we can come in as liberators give them a sovereign state (unswervingly loyal to the Reich but hey) and have a strategically important area loyal to us. This might also drive the west away and decrease Lend-Lease in the future.

[discovery1]

And you back that opinon with what?:fishing: Have you ever thought that SU could be able to to win in Turkey with its Armenian troops.You are underastimating the Soviets.There is no way that Turkey would side with us when we are the only ones in continental Europe that can help them?~:confused: Are we really so naive that we think that Western allies would declare war over Turkey to Soviet Union.Look what happened in reality in Eastern Europe. As i sayed before i think we are acting according to manifest destiny.Just like we were in our Soviet campaing.


That Turkey was neutral for pretty much the entire war, even when it looked like GER would win? And there is no way that Turkey will side with us, at least openly, while there is the chance that the UK can hurt them plus if they did join with us then the Soviets would invade beyond any shadow of a doubt. I'm surprised the SOV aren't freaking out over what we are doing now. Then again, we only just broke thru. And now that I think about it, this isn't an occupation of Turkey they are after, not wholesale anyway. 'Just' military bases on the northern coast and control of the straits.

[Franconicus]

More than 1,000 posts! Well done!:book:

[Franconicus]

Chapter 63 – Ahead! To Alexandria!
Egypt, August 8th – August 10th

“Ahead!” That is the order from Ramcke to the 39. Corps. Now Alexandria, one strategic goal, is in reach. Without any rest the tanks of the 15. and 21. Panzerdivision hurry along the dusty coastal road. From time to time the pass wrecks, left behind by the fleeing British troops. One of them emerges as the command vehicle of the XIII. Corps. Inside, the German find confidential material, including the deployment of the British forces in Middle East and Africa.

8. ARMY (Gen. Auchinleck)
XIII. Corps: Gen. Freyberg at Alexandria
Rests of the 4th Indian Division
Rest of the 6th Australian Division (Gen. Mackay)
Parts of the 2nd New Zealand Division (Gen. Freyberg)
4th Armored Brigade
Carpathian Rifle Brigade
The Buffs (bat of the Royal East Kent reg.)

XV. Corps: General Sir Alan Gordon Cunningham at Cairo
1st Armored Division (General Lumsden)
The 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division (Gen. Martel)
1st Canadian Infantry Division (Gen. Simonds)
2nd Infantry Division (South Africa) Gen. Klopper

British HQ Troops Cyprus:
7th Indian Brigade

British HQ East Africa:
1st Infantry Division (South Africa) (Gen. Pienaar)
11th Infantry Division (Africa)
12th Infantry Division (Africa)

British HQ Sudan:
5th Indian Division

British HQ Syria:
1st Armoured Brigade
11th Czech Infantry Bat.
Australian 17th Brigade
two Free French brigades
one French Foreign Legion regiment
Palmach
Arab Legion (Gen. Glubb)
Schmidt thinks that Ramcke would like tto have this information and sends it straight to the HQ. Then he continues the advance. However, things are getting difficult now. The Royal Desert Air Force interferes like she hadn’t for months. The German tanks and supply units are under constant attacks by bombers and ground attack planes. The Germans are easy targets. There is little air defense and the Luftwaffe is not able to drive the British away. The British do have local superiority in numbers, and they have replaced their biplanes by modern Spitfires. During night, raids of the British air force go on, supported by artillery fire from Royal Navy ships.

At the next morning, Schmidt’s Corps pushes ahead. Casualties among the tanks are not too serious, but the supply is getting low. In the afternoon, the German forward units arrive at the suburb of Alexandria only short time after the last fleeing British entered town. In the evening the Germans occupy the first suburbs and entrench there for the night. At the next morning, the British are gone – Alexandria is in the hands of the Axis.

Late this evening President Roosevelt addresses a radio speechs to the American people. He declares that he sent out units of the US Army and the US Navy as well as units of the USAAF to secure the oilfields of Iraq for the free world. 2nd Armored and 3rd Infantry Divisions under the command of General Patton landed at the shores of Iraq and occupied Basra.

At Ankara the Government of Turkey announces that it closed a contract of mutual assistance as well as a trade agreement with the Soviet Union. Both nations agreed upon having joined patrols to control the strait of Bosporus. The strait is closed for warships of any nation besides Turkey and the USSR. Turkey also leases bases on both sides of the strait to the USSR.

Choices for Ramcke:
A) Order the 39. Coprs to chase the British and to cross the Suez Channel as soon as possible.
B) Order the 39. Corps to wait until the Italian divisions close ranks.
C) Any other plan?

[DemonArchangel]

Franc: It would be good if you could show us the river crossings at the Nile, and any British units within range. Also, try to get some reconnaissance information on where the remnants of the 8th Army evacuated to.

In the meantime, we need to orchestra the capture of Gibraltar and base some of our surface ships there, so the British can't get back into the Mediterranean, and so the Americans can't perform the Torch landings.

And maybe our intelligence services should fund neo-Ottoman/Islamist movements in Turkey, so that the Kemalists in power would suffer for their decision to side with the Soviets (unless of course, we can talk them into betraying the Soviets when we invade).

[King Kurt]

Got to be A. Press on, full steam ahead before any body can get reorganised. The quicker we get over the canal and into Palestine the better. We have Alex now as a supply base. A melting pot has been created and everything is up for grabs - we are in position and must push on before others can react. The Yanks are on their way towards Iran/ Iraq - so we need to exert pressure there. And one last thing - forget Gib - we are still not in a position to take it easily and it is strategically unimportant. Even if the Americans land in Morroco - and how can they if they are trying to secure Iraq - where is the oil there or within several thousand miles? Hell we could even let them take Libya and hold them at El Alamein. This is August 1941 - the american army is relatively small, poorly equiped and poorly trained and with the benefit of historical hindsight Pearl Harbour is only 4 months away (but who knows what twist Franc will introduce!!)
The key to all this is to knock the Brits off balance and grab the oil - everything else is not important. More worrying is the Soviet/ Turks situation - I didn't expect them to roll over and let the Russians in. It makes the route to the oil via ourselves even more important. We need to get the Russians embroiled in something to distract them until we have to fight them next year. Perhaps an internal revolt against the powers to be in Turkey.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I doubt the situation in Turkey is settled with this. The Soviet control is very limited, and if it increases there will most likely be a reaction from the Turkish people. The British document suggests the British are still quite strong here, but it could be a deliberately dropped document with false information. My guess is that the British will try to pull back across the Suez and regroup, and defend the Suez crossings until they get reinforcements or coordinate their operations with the Americans, after which they'll try to cross again, and using the control over East Africa to launch a simultaneous flanking operation.

In that case, continuing the pursuit might be the best option: A.

[DemonArchangel]

Yes, let's go. Option A.

And no, I really don't believe allowing the British to keep Gibraltar is a good decision. We have to take it before March 1942, so it's good to start making plans right now. Just plans, and an attempt to talk the Spanish into letting us use their territory, so we can set up the requisite airfields and heavy artillery batteries.

[SwordsMaster]

Would it be possible to use the italian divers? Make them infiltrate the place during the nights, set up explosives somewhere in vulnerable spots (AA guns, shore batteries, barracks, HQ, radio stations, fuel deposits, ammo depots, you know what i mean...) and get out.

This would force the british to resupply the place, at which time the divers can be used again to sink ships, and the luftwaffe's raids from Morocco will be more effective...

EDIT: Ah, I'm A, BTW, but i think it should be our strongest tank force that goes across the channel, and the Italians, and the weaker tank force should be resupplied and set up to advance to Cairo. Give them a bit of a break in Alexandria though. They should fortify the city in case of counterattacks...

[Franconicus]

Chapter 64 – Delta blues
Alexandria, August 25th

Ramcke transfers his HQ to Alexandria. Alexandria is unlike all other quarters. It is a shady oasis at the edge of the desert. Desert war is over. Now war comes to the Nile delta, the heart of the British Africa position.

The capture of Alexandria was a big step for Ramcke’s JCAM. The Axis captured big dumps of food and fuel. This will make the war a lot easier. However, supply with troops and spare parts is still a pain. The seizure of Alexandria is also a sign that the British are exhausted, not able to stand the assaults of the Axis any longer. Ramcke is determined to end this war before the British can reinforce again.

The German tank divisions have been chasing the British. Unfortunately, the advance has been more difficult than expected. One reason has been the nature of the delta. There have been many river arms, becks and channels to cross. More than one tank stuck in the mud of the Nile. Additionally, the strains of the passed months demand their toll. The equipment is at the limit and replacement is hard to get. The combat strength of the divisions is melting away. Hopefully the logistical situation will improve as soon as Crete and Cyprus are occupied by the Axis.
There is another reason for the slow progress. The RAF is getting stronger and stronger every day. Almost daily the British raids become more effective. Obviously the RAF receives continuously new planes and crews. Also the types of the planes have changed. In the beginning of the African war, many fighters were biplanes. These have been substituted by Hurricanes. Today, there are no more biplanes, but a huge number of Spitfires, Beaufighters, Warhawks and Aircobras. Hurricanes are mainly used as ground attack planes, now. In reply, the Germans speed up the introduction of the Me 109 model F. This plane is currently the best fighter in Africa. However, there are not enough and maintenance is very difficult.


The German tanks chase the British across the delta area. They take Damanhur and Kafr ash Shaykh. After a difficult and exhausting advance the German advanced tanks finally reach the right arm of the Nile 20 miles south of Damietta. They are able to build and secure a bridgehead on the other side, and then the momentum is gone. They have to wait for supply and enforcements. German bombers lay mines and block the Channel. Port Said and Suez are bombed. Patrol planes report that the XV. Corps finished its deployment near Cairo.

On August 14th, 12. Army landed at the north-western part of Crete. There was a short but furious fight against Greek soldiers. However, as soon as the Germans could conquer a harbour, the Greek command withdrew the Greek soldiers into the mountains.

Since then the Germans advance along the coast of the northern shore. Resistance is weak, and the speed of the advance is only limited by logistics. The lack of transport planes makes the operation difficulties, but the complete dominance in the air and the superiority of land forces set the seal on the Greek defeat. On August 18th German soldiers assault Heraklion. The Germans are supplied and reinforced by an armada of small and big transport ships. There haven’t been any signs of the British Army or the RAF. The Royal Navy has not a lot to oppose. However, one big transport ship is sunk by a British submarine. British submarines also operate in the area of Naples. Here, two German freight ships have been their victims.
August 21st, 13 British bombers raid the Romanian oil fields. Damage is low, but the fact that the British are able to attack the essential oil fields is alarming.

Ramcke receives a confidential report about the situation of the Soviet Union. The Soviets are still sending more divisions to their southern borders. Obviously, they are ready to invade Turkey in case of any anti-Soviet revolts there. Intelligence also reports that the Soviets started to transfer divisions from Siberia to the western military districts. They will arrive about the end of the year and will significantly increase the western Soviet armies.
There is also news about a new tank that the Soviets start to produce in numbers. It is called T34, but engineers think that it is no challenge for the German Mark III.

The Soviet ambassador met Ribbentrop and suggested to rearrange the German-Soviet affairs. He thinks that there could be a lasting peace if all open issues are solved. His proposal is that Bulgaria and Sweden should be a kind of neutral buffer between the two blocks. He also told Ribbentrop that the Soviet fleet wants to have access to the Northern Sea.
The Spanish dictator Franco still refuses to decrease his preconditions for a war entry. Intelligence reports that Spain has received large deliveries of oil and food by American companies. Probably Franco made a deal with Roosevelt.

In Iraq, the American troops secured their base at Basra. Then they started to advance towards Baghdad. At the same time British columns from Syria crossed the border to Iraq. Additionally the British landed infantry at an air field near Baghdad. The Iraqis fight without passion and success. It is foreseen that the Americans and British will soon conquer Baghdad and control the entire country.

About mid-August several convoys reach Alexandria. They are sufficient to refill the divisions of the Axis. For the first time both German tank corps have full combat strength. The Italians have gained their full strength, too and hopefully their moral is getting better too. Ramcke has deployed them near Alexandria to secure this important base. 1. Fallschirmjägerdivision has arrived too and is ready for combat.

The JCAM is ready to start the decisive operation. Ramcke disposes of the 39. Panzerkorps, the 41. Panzerkorps, the Italian 21. Army Corps, the Italian 20. Motorized Corps and the 1. Fallschirmjägerdivision. The British have the XIII. Corps on the eastern side of the Channel and the XV. Corps around Cairo.

The Germans have about 600 tanks, the Italians 180. The British forces near Cairo have about 400 tanks; at the Channel they have about 150, mainly infantry tanks. In the air the British have an advantage of 3:2 regarding fighters. The German fighters are slightly better than the Allied, but the Italian fighters are of low quality. Regarding bombers both sides have about equal numbers, but the British have a significant better load capacity.

Options:
1-Cross the Channel and the Sinai as soon as possible. Go on to Jerusalem and Damascus.
2- Attack Suez. This is the base for the XV.Corps. Occupying Suez would also bypass the XIII. Corps.
3. Attack the XIII. Corps and afterwards the XV. Corps.
4. Wait until the 12. Army has seized Cyprus.

https://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4952/prsentation1rw9.jpg

[SwordsMaster]

Great stuff. FJ finally!

Anyway, here's the plan I propose: Deploy the FJ to seize the major british airfields trying to disable as many planes as possible.

This should be done in combination with a full attack by the 41 and 29 PC againsth the XIII corps and a push across the strait.

The italian motorised will protect the southern flank and plunge into the gap between the XIII and XV, while the 20 will advance directly south along the river.

The second FJ division should be shipped ASAP, and as soon as any of the FJ divs become available, they should be dropped behind enemy lines around Jerusalem to interdict the allied retreat and cause confusion while our tanks move along the coast.

Targets for this phase of the operation are Cairo, Amman, Jerusalem and Damascus.

After the conquest of the islands is complete, the 12 army should land near Beirut and secure the North of Syria and get as close as possible to the southern turkish border. While preparing to strike either into Turkey or Iraq.

[Lord Winter]

What dose every one think about trying an encirlement of XIII corps. We could anchor the line on the Suez giving us protection from the west. Something like:

The FJ will hold XIII in place as the PD strike out for the crossings. 20 Motto will make an holding attack on the brits XV. 21st division stays in reserve. Thoughts?

[Franconicus]

If you would like to use the Fallschirmjäger in an airborne operation, please consider that the deployment, timing and cooperation with the ground forces is very important. A more detailed planning and precise description of the operation plan is required.

The units on the maps have Corps size, except the FJ (=division). I think you all know the combat strength of the corps now!

[SwordsMaster]

If you would like to use the Fallschirmjäger in an airborne operation, please consider that the deployment, timing and cooperation with the ground forces is very important. A more detailed planning and precise description of the operation plan is required.

The units on the maps have Corps size, except the FJ (=division). I think you all know the combat strength of the corps now!

In that case, in my plan, the FJ should be deployed to hit the airfields the noght before the main attack, in the direction of the Suez channel. The attack should begin at daybreak (5:00 am), so that the FJ positions are reached during the first day of the offensive.

Once this is done, the FJ would receive a day to recover and reorganise and then be parachuted the next night behind the retreating allies so as to mine and assault depots, and main roads, so that next day's offensive catches up with the retreating survivors.

This time they will not wait for the PCs to catch up, and will advance towards Jerusalem, occupying airfields and artillery positions that should not be strongly defended as this is a few km behind enemy lines.

They should provide intelligence on the defences of Jerusalem, and take the city if possible. Otherwise, await the main forces and impede british supply and retreat.

[DemonArchangel]

This doesn't quite seem like a good idea, our transports are going to get savaged by the superior British fighters if we try an airborne operation.

And Franc I thought the Italians had some excellent planes during WWII.

Anyway, I suggest attacking the Suez canal with 41 and 39 PzK, while our FSJ attempt to infiltrate behind the British lines to take out the airfields. The FSJ commander will be asked about methods that he feels are feasible for such an operation.

The Italians will prevent XV Corps from breaking through while we finish our attack on Suez.

Our own airfields will have to be moved forward in order to better come to grips with the RAF.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

The Italians have 180 tanks and the British 400. I am not sure whether they can hold them. The 41st should cross the channel and attack the XIII. The FJ should occupy Suez (depending on whether this operation is possible due to RAF) while the 39th and the Italians will hold a potential counterattack against Suez.

[Franconicus]

:dizzy2:

Options:
1-Cross the Channel and the Sinai as soon as possible. Go on to Jerusalem and Damascus.
2- Attack Suez. This is the base for the XV.Corps. Occupying Suez would also bypass the XIII. Corps.
3. Attack the XIII. Corps and afterwards the XV. Corps.
4. Wait until the 12. Army has seized Cyprus.


So what?
Or would you like to
5. Wait for more information from recon?

[SwordsMaster]

I think it's 1 and 2. Hit the Suez with the two german PCs and then race to Jerusalem and Damascus.

[King Kurt]

In some ways this is a strange strategic position - we have fought our way along a corridor and have come into a big room - we want to head straight on as that is where our objectice lies, but we risk leaving strong forces to our flank/ rear. If we attack them, they can retreat southwards, pulling us furthur away from the direction we want to go. We could attack them and end up fighting them in the Horn of Africa which is not where we are meant to be.
So my inclination is to press on over the canal and on to Damascus - i.e. 1. It doesn't look like there will be match to oppose us and we can use the italians to guard or flank and rear. We can bring supplies into Alex and we need to bring our aircraft up nearer to give us more support. Also the aircraft could attack Suez. Speed is of the essence and there is the prospect of the US moving troops over into the Syria/ Palastine area to defend the oil - am I right in assuming that we are not at war with the US yet? - we would not want to give them a cause for war.

[Franconicus]

In some ways this is a strange strategic position - we have fought our way along a corridor and have come into a big room - we want to head straight on as that is where our objectice lies, but we risk leaving strong forces to our flank/ rear. If we attack them, they can retreat southwards, pulling us furthur away from the direction we want to go. We could attack them and end up fighting them in the Horn of Africa which is not where we are meant to be....
:no: Bad bad British!


...am I right in assuming that we are not at war with the US yet?...
Right, although the line between peace and war is getting more and more vague.

[SwordsMaster]

By the way, refortifying Alamein, Alexandria and the Suez accesses (once we take the channel, obviously) with extensive ATs, artillery, AAs and minefields against the southern british divisions is a priority, since they will have to hold their ground with mostly infantry against tank and infantry forces as well as the RAF. So using Alexandria as a good supply spot, these should be reinforced. Strip the Maginot line if necessary.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 65 – Towards Jerusalem
Alexandria, August 26th

Ramcke meets with the officers responsible for supply and intelligence.
Quartermaster Graf Klinkowström reports: “The fall of Alexandria made the supply situation a lot easier. However, there are still many problems.
The distance from Tobruk is too long to carry a significant amount of supply along the road. Therefore, most of the demand has to be satisfied by sea transports. There are two main streams. One stream is the direct transports from Naples to Alexandria via Crete. The other one is the transport with small motor boats along the coast of North Africa. These small ships are very valuable, because they increase the transport capacity and they can be disembarked at smaller harbours.

The Axis has about 120 transport ships with a total capacity of 120,000 tons per month. The demand of the Panzergruppe without the Italian divisions is about 100,000 tons per month. The Luftwaffe currently needs 16,000 ton per month plus 8,000 tons for the paratroops. At the moment there is plenty of fuel, food and medicine at the dumps of Alexandria. However, there is still a lack of spare parts and the lead-time is huge.

The navy looses an increasing number of ships due to submarine assaults and air raids. There are three British submarine flotillas operating in the Mediterranean. British bombers based at Cyprus, Egypt and Palestine increase their raids against the Axis’ transports. Last week they sunk the ‘Preußen’. We lost 200 soldiers, 6,000 tons ammo, 1,000 tons gasoline, 1,000 tons food, 320 vehicles and 3,000 post bags. Currently we are loosing about one big ship per week. There are not enough Axis fighters to screen the whole sea.”
The intelligence officer reports that the British are constantly receiving reinforcements. About 500 short and medium range bombers left India two weeks ago. There are mainly Baltimore bombers, but also Blenheim, Boston, Halifax. There is also a significant number of a new fighter called Tomahawk coming. This may be an improved version of the lately introduced Kittyhawk.
The British also disembarked about 50 new tanks. Their destination is unknown.

The British have several dumps near Cairo, Suez and Al Aqabeh. Obviously they have enough storage for a big invasion.

The total strength of the British 8. Army is about 100,000 soldiers, 600 tanks and 1,300 planes. JCAM has about 120,000 soldiers, 780 tanks (including 180 Italian), as well as 500 German planes and 300 Italian. Not counted are the transport planes of the paratroops division.

This information reverifies Ramcke to start a new operation immediately. Although the Panzergruppe has some problems, the situation won’t become any better. His orders go to the commanders of the corps. 41. Panzerkoprs will cross the Nile, then advance to the Channel and cross is near Ismailie. Afterwards it will push further eastwards. 39. Panzerkorps will advance towards Suez and take this important British base. Here it will cross the Channel, too and cross the Sinai. The Italian 20. Mobile Corps will march to Shibin al Kawro. It will stop any advance of the British XV. Corps. The 21. Italian Corps will deploy around Alexandria and secure the base of the Axis.
The Luftwaffe also receives her orders. The German planes will be deployed as close to the front as possible. German bombers will bomb the Channel and Suez. Once the operations starts, the Luftwaffe will support the ground forces.

Ramcke is still uncertain about the deployment of the Fallschirmjägerdivision. There is plan Viking, where the Fallschirmjäger are supposed to seize Al Arish and Beersheba. The fallback of the British XIII. Corps would be cut off. The deployment would be about three hundred miles behind the lines, in an area without many allied forces. There is a small airfield at Al Arish that could be used for supply. Once the ground forces arrive, it would only be a short step to Jerusalem. However, the tanks would need some time to reach the Fallschirmjäger. Those would have to hold the fort for three to four days.
Another option would be the seizure of Al Aqabeh. There is an important base at the end of the Gulf of Aqabeh. However, this place is as far from the front as the other. Once the target is seized, it would be difficult to transport the division to another place.

Third option is a landing on the eastern side of Suez. Here, the troopers could take airfields and support the operation of 39. Panzerkorps. However, close to Suez the air defence is very strong and there are probably many British forces.

Option 1, 2 or three?

[SwordsMaster]

1! Hold the fort for 4 days? Been there, done that. Let's hit'em. Besides, it's not just the physical effect, it's the moral hit that it will cause that is most important.

[DemonArchangel]

1. Drop plenty of mines, anti-tank grenades, RRs and light AT guns with them though.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 66 – ‘Pharao’ and ‘Viking’
Egypt, August 26th – 30th

Ramcke has made up his mind. He will pursue an agreesive approach. Palistine has to fall. It is a good sign that he receives a radio message telling him that Rommel is already on the way back to the front. Rommel is probably exactly the right one to secure the victory. Ramcke gives the codeword to start operation ‘Pharao’, the invasion of Palestine, and ‘Viking’, the airborne landing to support this operation.

Long before the ground forces beging the operation, the war in the sky breaks out with full strength and furiousness. The German bombers once more lay mines into the Channel. They also bomb Suez and Port Said. There are also raids against the British fleet at the Red Sea. The Italian planes concentrate on the British airfields that are close to the front. Withing three days 60 Allied planes are destroyed. Additionally, German bombers stationed at Crete start to bombard the British bases at Cyprus.

The British are quick to reply. About 300 bombers attack Alexandria in a night raid. Additionally the British bomb the German dumps and rear positions. The German supply ships are constantly under fire. German fighters try to intercept the British bombers, but they are too few to stop them.

In the night from August 28th and 29th - the day when ‘Pharao’ is supposed to start – the British execute several command operations. The targets are the headquarter of the JCAM and several communication centers. One group consisting of three English and 5 Arabian murderer penetrates Ramcke’s headquarter. They manage to kill some guards. They place some bombs before they are discovered. In a short gun fight the garrison kills the intruders. However, the bombs explode. One of the victims is General Hoth, who was just leaving a meeting with Ramcke.

In the morning of August 29th, the RAF starts a massive raid against the German air fields close to the front. The damage is huge.

August 29th the German tank corps leave their starting positions and cross the right arm of the Nile. They do it under heavy artillery bombardment of the New Zealand Division. The air corps sends Stukas to eliminate the artillery. At noon pioneers build two bridges and the mass of the German divisions cross the river. The British retreat to the Suez line. In the afternoon the 41. reaches Suez Channel near Ismailie, where the resistance of the British becomes stiffer. In the evening 39. reaches the suburbs of Suez.

That night the battle reaches a first climax. Never before has there been such an intensive bombardment. German and Italian bombers attack Suez and Ismailie. German artillery bombs the towns, too. The British blow up the last bridges over the Channel. The RAF bombs the German tank forces. The British battle ship force in the Red Sea shells the Germans near Suez.

During night operation ‘Viking’ starts. German transport planes fly approach their targets across the ocean. They enter Palestinian skies close to Gaza. Then they split up. One group goes for Al Arish from the north, the other one heads for Beersheba.
There is no reaction from the British air defense. Unnoticed the German planes reach their targets.
At three o’clock parachutes open and the first companies touch down. Still, there is no defense fire from below. The operation seems to be surprising to the British.
1st Regiment of Oberst Bräuer gets down at Al Arish. 1st Battalion deploys south of the town and 2nd Battalion north of the town.
2nd Regiment, Oberst Sturm, touches ground Beersheba.
Quickly, the German Fallschirmjäger secure the landing zones. They collect the containers with the equipment. Then they interrupt the railways to their targets. Both Al Arish and Beersheba are connected to the British Palestine Military Railways.

When morning breaks the Germans start to assault the crossing of the Suez Channel. 41. Panzerkorps, after the death of Hoth without commander, assaults the ruins of Isamilie. The 104 Rifle Regiment and the 5 Tank Regiment cross the Channel and penetrate the town in the evening. However, they can only advance slowly through the ruins. A battalion of the Royal East Kent regiment derfends the expanse of ruins as if they were the crown jewels. The Germans have to clear every street.

At Suez resistance is even tougher. Suez is the most important base after the fall of Alexandria and the British do not intend to give it up. The British defenders are supported by artillery, tanks, bombers and shells from the British battle ships. In reply, the German air corps does everything to support the assault. At noon, two British battleships are seriously damaged and the British commander tells the fleet to leave the battlefield. However, the British fucused their air defense around Suez and the Germans pay the price for their raids.

At the end of the day the Germans break up their efforts to take Suez. However, at Ismailie, the 41. successfully occupies the town. In the evening General Rommel arrives at the front. As soon as he gets the news, he orders to follow the retreating British through the night. 21. PD takes lead and advances along the road to Beersheba. 15. PD turns northwards. During night they reach the coast and turn right to follow the road to Al Arish.
What happened to the Fallschirmjäger?

At Al Arish the Fallschirmjäger had just reached the northern railroad, when a approached the town. The Fallschirmjäger sent a signal to stop. The conductor attended the order and the Germans captured about 200 British soldiers. Oberst Bräuer deployed 300 of his men inside the wagons and forced the conductor to continue his trip. The coup de main succeeded and at 7:30 the Germans entered the railroad station and occupied the railroad facilities. They were hours ahead of the schedule. This caused a problem, because there was already a bomber group on the way to support the assault. At 8:15, at schedule, the German bombs hit Al Arish, with the focus on the railroad station. The Fallschirmjäger had to run for cover to escape the friendly bombs.

At the same time a pulk of transporters came to send reinforcements and ATGs. However, this time the air defense worked. Several British fighters attacked the unescorted German planes. About a douzend German planes were picked off. A lot of valuable equipment was lost.

Now British artillery began to shell the German positions. The Germans started to assault the town. Facing Germans coming from south and north and getting fire from the middle of the town, the British garrison soon gave way and left the town. However, there was still fire from artillery and snipers, causing more casualties. The fire was quite accurate. Bräuer decided to assault the ruins of the castle. Here, most of the British snipers were located. After a short close combat the Germans took possession of this place. Now the British fire ended and the Germans began to prepare the town for defense. They had to face the threat from British troops coming from the north as well as British troops coming from the south. Especially from the south, due to the fact that Al Arish was straight on the way for the retreating XIII. Corps. A massive attack with tanks would be an immense problem for the parachuters, but hopefully relief would come in time.
While they were still digging trenches, there was a second air raid against Al Arish. This time it was executed by 60 British bombers. The Fallschirmjäger had little to counter the air strike and the damage was quite high.
What happened to the German operation at Beersheba? The town was right in the middle of the desert. The Germans would have to take the town to supply themselves with water.

So in the morning of August 30, little groups German soldiers tired to infiltrate the town. They could almost reach the center of the town, before they found resistance. There were only few combat units at Beersheba, but a lot of supply troops. The invasion of the Fallschirmjäger caused chaos. There were on clear fronts and everyone shot at everything. However, about noon, the better training and equipment of the Germans gave them the upperhand and the British left the town. Beersheba was in the hands of the Axis.

Everything is going according plan except the seizure of Suez.

A-Order the 21. Panzerdivision to return and to attack Suez from the eastern side.
B-Order the 3. amd 4. Panzerdivision to keep on attacking Suez. Give them more air support.
C-Leave Suez aside. Make the 3. and 4. Panzerdivision bypass Suez in the north and support the advance of the 21. and 16. Panzerdivision.

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5104/prsentation1he0.jpg

[Rodion Romanovich]

C, we will still have more than enough troops to hold the area west of the Suez if we do this, and we need to relieve the FJs. The troops to the west of the Suez should reinforce their defenses with mines and ATGs in the meantime, and the last FJ div should be readied for insertion to assist in the defense there as regular infantry if things get worse than expected, or later for paradrops elsewhere. Trieste should occupy the ground captured by 3rd and 4th PD so it isn't lost again.

[DemonArchangel]

We have to keep attacking south. Otherwise the 15 and 21 PzD will get cut off by the British coming out of Cairo. Give the 3 and 4 more air support, and then attack south towards the southern end of the Suez Canal.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Actually, change my vote from C to A on second thoughts. Order Ariete and Brescia to carefully advance south as well, to keep pressure along the southern line and to divert elements from the XV Corps. from Suez. Have Trieste join the attack as well, in a mostly passive role behind the 3. PD and 4. PD. If Suez doesn't fall within 1 day with full artillery and air support, proceed with either of the following plans:
1. if Suez is close to falling, leave Trieste and 3. PD to continue the assault, while sending the rest according to the plan I suggested before
2. if Suez isn't close to falling, send 3. PD as well, and follow the plan I suggested before

[King Kurt]

Is it me or do things look a bit grim? If we can't break through in Sinai then the FJ are toast. If we concentrate our forces to break through then the English forces could push through the Italians to retake Alexandria and our armoured forces are trapped in a pocket. If all goes wrong here, our hero looses 4 Panser Divisions - not a recomended event on his career path.

As for my choice - sacrifice the FJ and stabilise the southern front, so A recall the 21st to attack Suez.

A thought - are we creating the German equivalent of Arnhem here - the FJ version of a Bridge too far?:no:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Actually I looked at a few maps now, and on second (third?) thought, the situation for the British is probably much worse than for us. We've captured two of their major supply bases for the forces in the Middle East and Sinai - Bersheeba and Al Arish. Additionally, we have cut off two other major supply centers: Damascus and Jerusalem - from contact with the forces in the Sinai. The naval supply is also problematic for them: the Suez canal is blocked, and the route past Malta is too dangerous for massive transports. Eventually, Damascus and Jerusalem too will thus be low on supplies. Apart from Al Arish, the rest of the Sinai is desert with few possibilities for water supply, shelter or fortification.

The other major supply route of theirs is naval supply via Suez, but that requires long and dangerous transportation through the desert, and the 21. PD is also in position to threaten this already dangerous land route, meaning they may have to use a much longer and more dangerous supply route through miles after miles of desert in the Sinai, maybe landing in Al Aqabah:
http://www.world-maps.co.uk/maps/600-middle_east.jpg
But in order to supply from Al Aqabah, they probably need to pull back their armed forces to a line further east in order to avoid dangerous transportation through open desert, or their forces along the Mediterranean coast will be threatened, but then they risk losing the coast, and let us link up with the FJs and push east from Jerusalem, essentially trapping them completely because the desert to the east of their position is more or less impossible to penetrate.

In Africa, their supply situation is slightly better, but they've lost their most important air bases and supply centers: Alexandria, Cairo and Port Said. The link via Suez is also almost cut off, meaning any significant troop transports must be made by sea, but there are few good harbors, and a vast desert landscape for the troops to cross - which is incredibly difficult if not impossible without good supply of water and fuel.

So in short I think we've essentially disrupted their entire supply and trapped their Middle East force in the Sinai desert almost completely without water, fuel, shelter or fortifications.

The British have essentially three options:
1. try to wipe out the FJs quickly to get a decent supply situation again, but this is impossible for them to do if they are pressured by as little as 2 German PDs in the rear, because they'll need numeral superiority to retake the fortified positions captured by the FJs. So they would need to transport forces from East Africa to the Sinai to succeed in this. But will they do this, when they already face a supply crisis there and also face the threat of encirclement?
2. try to extract the Sinai forces and send them to East Africa together with the forces south of Cairo. The Syria force escapes to Iraq or surrenders. This would be the most sensible option for them at this time, as it would prevent total disaster and give them a good starting point for a campaign of naval raids of a type that suits them better than the current war, which suits us better.
3. try to flee north with the Sinai force, circumventing the FJ positions, and escaping to Damascus with at least part of their forces. From there, they could prepare renewed resistance, or flee to Iraq without having to cross quite as dangerous desert as they would if they're trapped between Suez and Jerusalem and have to move east from there. This is however risky for them, in case Turkey joins the war.

I think we'll win this if we manage to 1. just threaten the supply going via Suez to the Sinai, 2. keep pressure on the British Sinai force for a few more days. I think we will win a major victory if we additionally succeed in: 1. capturing Suez, 2. linking up with the FJs.

I think we are capable of capturing Suez if the 21. attacks them from the right. In the meantime we can maintain a moderate pressure along the Mediterranean coast of the Sinai and link up with the southern FJs almost immediately with elements of 15. PD. Only 2. FJ are in any potential danger, but their ground is well fortified, and our pressure will hopefully draw enough British forces away from them.

[SwordsMaster]

I think we should hit Suez with every artillery we have. Level it to the ground, and then keep bombing. Move in Bologna to reinforce the assault, and keep the tanks moving north.

3 & 4 PD and Bologna should bomb Suez with support from our airforce and take it no matter what. Then the italians should entrench and point their artillery at the channel and the southern approaches, while 4 PD will bridge the gap between Bologna and the other italians, and 3PD will continue and follow the 21st North towards Jerusalem.

The FJ should mine the roads and accesses to and the roads leading further north in case the british bypass their position. They should also try and get heavy weapons from british supply dumps should they fina any to use to fortify their positions.

Generally we should keep the brits in the desert and out of supply for as long as possible.

[AggonyDuck]

I vote C with a small modification; only 4.PD will move east, while 3. PD will cease any action against Suez and just protect the flank of the advance through the Sinai.

The reason for this decision is the fact that we will lose 1.FJ if we do not move quickly to save them. The 1. FJ doesn't have the equipment to defend itself properly from an armoured assault by 4th Armoured, so we need to make such an assault an impossibility. The real mistake here was dropping the paras 200km behind the enemy lines in a desert in the close vicinity of an armoured division. We owe it to our comrades to save them from this danger that we put them in, even if it might disrupt our campaign. Suez isn't worth losing a division for.

[Franconicus]

A comment to avoid misinterpretations: the units in squares are divisions (at least at their nominal strength) the round ones are either battalions or regiments. There are no unknown units, you should know them all very well.

The Germans have one FJ-division. One regiment is at Al Arish, another one at Beersheba. The rest is still at Alexandria. It is planned to bring reinforcements to the landing zones, esp. ATG to Al Arish during the next night. You may comment that!
Current state:
B: III
A: II

Is this correct?

[AggonyDuck]

I voted C.

[Franconicus]

I voted C.
oh!

Then we have A:2, B:2 and C:1
:dizzy2:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hope someone breaks the tie soon, so we get another chapter! :charge:

[AggonyDuck]

Meh! I don't like it, but I'll go with A. Better to concentrate forces than divide them, and this way we will be able to turn east in force when the time comes.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 67 – Battle of ‘Shibin al Kawro’
Egypt, August 31st
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https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2068/panzeriiikz5.jpg
Looking at the map, Ramcke realizes that decision is near; maybe not only for the battle, but also for the complete campaign and even the war.
Both sides have problems with supply. Both sides have units that are cut off. However, there is a complete British corps cut off and it is foreseeable that the British are going to throw all reserves into the battle to liberate it.
The battle will be won if the Germans can keep the XII. British corps isolated for another day. Therefore, the Fallschirmjäger have to hold their forts until the tanks arrive. Plus, Suez has to be assaulted or at least cut off completely.
Ramcke sends orders to the divisions. The 1. Fj.Reg. will be reinforced this night. Rommel has to advance as fast as possible. He shall not care about defeating units hanging behind.

Schmidt has to take Suez. This base is worth a high price. Therefore Ramcke calls back the 21st.

What happens at the combat zones of the Fallschirmjäger this night?

At Al Arish the troopers hear the trucks and tractors all through the night. The British haul in troops and heavy equipment from the north. Bräuer can do nothing but wait. Around 2:00 German transport planes approach the town. Even before they reach the air field, some of them catch fire and drop down – night fighters! The German planes hurry to touch ground, but only half of them make it. As soon as they are on the ground, British artillery opens fire and shells the airfield. Confusion and casualties increase. Most of the needed equipment, especially the ATGs, is destroyed. The few soldiers that arrive unwounded are integrated into the defensive position. In the morning hours, British bombers raid the town. They know that the Germans have no air defence and fly a low level attack. The town is plugged and the Fallschirmjäger have high casualties. Shortly after this, British field artillery begins to shell the German positions. Bräuer has to watch his combat strength melting away.

At Beersheba it is quiet. Shortly after dawn, 74 British soldiers come out of the desert led by a colonel. They had decided to end the fighting and to give up. Now, Oberst Sturm has 134 prisoners of war. During night several Germans several German soldiers were found dead in the streets. Sturm increases the numbers of patrols. At midnight, an officer alarms Sturm. He reports that about 40 soldiers are sick. After some investigations the Germans find out that three of the seven wells of Beersheba are poisoned. Sturm knows that he has hardly enough water to feed his men. He sends a message to the headquarter to call for water. At 3:20 15 Ju88 arrive above the desert town and drop containers with water. Most of them miss their target and land outside of the desert. Sturm sends patrols to retrieve them. Two patrols do not return, however. At dawn British bombers bomb Beersheba. Casualties are low, but another tow wells are destroyed. As well as the radio station. Now, the water situation is alarming. Sturm decides to set the British prisoners free. The colonel protests. Sturm insures him, that he will be shot if he stays inside the German positions. Under protests the British leave the town. However, if with this reduced numbers, the Fallschirmjäger will not be able to hold the fort much longer.

Early morning, the operations of the tank divisions restart. Rommel protests against the decision to call one of his divisions back. Instead of this he asks for more supply and more air support. Nevertheless, 21st, almost half between the Channel and Beersheba, returns and advances towards Suez. 3. and 4. PD makes another attempt to assault the British base. The Italian 20. Mot. Corps supports the struggle by slowly advancing towards Cairo.
At 11:00 Ramcke reviews the reports from the battle field. In the east 15. Panzerdivision is fighting through the defence of the New Zealanders. The advance is slow, but steady. From Al Arish the Fallschirmjäger report of non-stop artillery bombardment from north and continuous infantry assaults from the south. They started to retreat to the centre of the town. The German Luftwaffe supported them by bombing the British batteries. Latest news is that there are British tanks gathering southeast of the German positions.
There is no news from Beersheba.

21. Panzerdivision is marching back. At 10:00 it is blocked by the defence of a Polish battalion. General Thoma gives the order to assault the Polish position at once.

At Suez, the German assault troops start penetrating the suburbs. Schmidt sends tanks to support the infantry. Slowly but steady the Germans advance towards the centre of the town.

At the western end of the front, the Italian divisions Brescia, Ariete and Trieste advance according plan. At 10 o’clock there is a British counterattack. About forty British tanks try to g round the columns of Ariete. The tanks are small and are very fast – maybe 60 or 70 km/h.
In the beginning, they managed to bypass some columns and caused some confusion among the Italian troops. Then, some M13/40 took them on and soon four British tanks were burning. The rest retreated. The Italian commander seized the chance and issued the command to chase the British.
An officer of the Luftwaffe gave Ramcke the report, that there is a convoy in the Gulf of Suez. It consists of 5 transport ships, including one tanker, escorted by three destroyers and one cruiser. The commander of the air corps already issued the order to concentrate the air force to raid this convoy.

Finally there is a message from the 2nd Fallschirmjägerregiment. Oberst Sturm, knowing that he had not enough water to supply all of his men, decided to leave Beersheba and to try to get in contact with the advanced detachment of the 21. Panzerdivision. He only left two companies and the wounded behind. The rest moved south, using the vehicles they had found in the British base. He is moving along the road to Ismailie. They have not met any British resistance, but they are thirsty and exhausted. He asks for instant supply with water.

Ramcke confirms that the Luftwaffe has to bomb the British ships, but he also urges the Luftwaffe to supply the Fallschrimjäger with water.
In the afternoon, the battle continues at all fronts. It is hot, very hot and every movement turns into torture. On both sides troops are exhausted, esp. those that have to cross open plain.

In the east, the Italians continue their advance. At 0:30, the Italian reconnaissance spotts another British tank formation, about 75 tanks. The Italian division, encouraged by the success in the morning, attacks immediately. They deploy 120 tanks, so numbers are on their side. The British tanks, still the new and fast ones, retreat, chased by the Italians. They move to a second group of 60 tanks. When the two British tank groups meet, the first one turns eastwards, while the second one attacks the Italians. The British tank force consists mainly of two tanks types, the already well known Crusader as well as another new one. When the Italian tanks approach, the units with the new tanks turn left, turning their vulnerable side to the enemy. While the Italian commanders still wonder about this manoeuvre, the see something even more surprising. These tanks have additional cannons at their side, big ones. The tanks start firing at the Italians and very soon 8 Italians knocked out. The Italian commander decides to retreat and to ask for reinforcements and air support. At this moment, the other British tanks appear at the flank of the Italians and attack the Italian tanks from the side. Within minutes 9 more tanks are disabled. The Italian commander sends an urgent message to Cambarra, the commander of the corps. Cambarra realizes that his main tank force is in trouble. Additionally, he receives the report that there are increasing activities of the RAF in the Italian sector. Cambarra tells Brescia to attack the flanks of the British formation and to bail out Ariete.
Therefore, the two infantry regiments of Brescia, 19 and 20, advance, supported by Art. Rgt. 55. However, they are intercepted Canadian forces. Within an hour The Royal Canadian Rgt., The Hastings and Prince Edwards Rgt. and 48th Highlanders of Canada join the battle and push Brescia into defence. The Germans send some Me 109 and a group of Stukas. However, the British air force is so strong, that they intercept the Germans, before they reach their targets. In the air battle, most of the Ju 87 are picked off. However, the British have to pay the price. They have high casualties too. One single German fighter, his name is Hans-Joachim Marseille, picks off 8 P-40 fighters within 10 minutes.

Meanwhile, Ariete is fighting for her life. The commander has no choice but to throw all his reserves into the battle. Both tank regiments are now in combat, the Bersiglieri build a defence line between the tanks and the artillery regiment. However, the British receive reinforcements, too. In total, there are about 200 British tanks vs. 150 Italian.

The situation of the Italians is getting worse and worse. Cambarra calls for air support. Then he activates his last reserves, Trieste. However, when the Infantry Rgt. 65 and 66 enter the battle field, they can only cover the retreat of the Italian tanks. The new allied tank – the British call it “Grant” – has proved that it is superior to the Italians. The other tank, called “Honey”, is maybe weaker than the Italians, but much faster.
The Italian infantry, supported by artillery and a couple of Semovente 75/18 stops the advance of the British tanks, while the Italian tanks retreat. 80 tanks stay on the battle ground.
On the eastern edge of the battle field, the allied increase their efforts. Three more Canadian regiments join the assault, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, The Seaforth Highlanders, and The Loyal Edmonton. They are supported by about 150 tanks. The 24 antitank guns of Brescia are rapidly knocked out. The demoralized Italian infantry flees from the battlefield. When night falls the British advanced detachments take Tanta and block the road from Alexandria to Ismailie.

In the meantime, the fighting around Suez continues with increased power. Two German tanks divisions attack on a very small area. At noon they enter downtown. However, here they stop, as they receive the message, that there is a massive British counter strike at the right flank of 3. Panzerdivision. Model’s “Berliner Bären” – the nickname of the 3. PD – are confronted with an assault of the 2. Infantry Division of South Africa. The South African easily overrun the weak defence. The bulk of this division, infantry as well as tanks, is engaged in the town. Model calls back his tanks. They drive straight into the enemy, as the Italians are overrunning the German artillery. Schmidt decides to use the complete 3. PD to shield the assault of Suez. 4. Panzerdivision keeps on fighting inside the town, while Model manages to repel the assaults of the South African division.
In the evening, General Thoma’s 21. Panzerdivision arrives from the east. Immediately, the British are pushed back and the German tanks occupy Suez downtown. Only the quarter of the harbour is still controlled by the British.
Luftwaffe executes the orders of Ramcke. The bombers and divers attack the British convoy. Although screened by air defence and interceptors, the German raiders sink 4 transport ships and three destroyers. One transport ship and a crippled cruiser flee southwards.

While the British tried to regain initiative in the west, the German advance in the east continues. At Al Arish the Fallschirmjäger have to repel attacks of the 4. Indian Division and the British 4. Armoured Brigade. They are under constant bombardment and ammo is getting tight. They do have almost no means to stop the British tanks. Oberst Bräuer’s regiment soon is accumulated in the area around the harbour. Here, they hold the fort and repel all assaults of the British army. In the evening, when 8. Panzerregiment finally enters town, they find that about 80% of the Fallschirmjäger are either dead or wounded. They had not succeeded in blocking the road completely. However, they inflicted high casualties to the British and slowed down their retreat.

General Kuhn, commander of the 15. PD, reports Bräuer, that 2. NZ Division is wiped out and that 4. Indian is reduced to the strength of one battalion.
What happened to the 2. Fallschirmregiment? Almost dead of thirst, the regiment was finally found by the German bombers. Transport planes brought water and fuel and could even pick up some of the most exhausted. When Oberst Sturm learns that the 21. Panzerdivision would not come, he decided to march northwards across the desert. He received a message from Beersheba. The commander of the troops that had been left behind, reports that the town is surrounded by superior forces. Considering the high number of wounded he suggests surrendering. Oberst Sturm agrees.

In the evening Ramcke receives the status reports. 15. PD has still 98 tanks ready for combat, 21. has a combat strength of 132 tanks. 39. Tank Corps with 3. and 4. Division, has 142 tanks in total. The Italians have 68 tanks. Therefore, JCAM commands 440 tanks. All division report that they run out of ammo and fuel. The Luftwaffe reports that the combat strength has decreased to 238 planes. The Italians have another 130. The Italian Mobile Corps is in disorder. Cambarra will use the night to regroup it.
British XIII. Corps has probably about 100 tanks, the XV. Corps about 350. This day the British Desert Air Force has clearly dominated the skies. The bomb raids continue even after the fall of the night.

The overall supply situation has worsened, as British bombers sank another three ships on the way to Alexandria.

Make your proposal!:egypt:
https://img258.imageshack.us/img258/5461/prsentation1rk0.jpg
https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4695/m3grantlq9.jpg
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[King Kurt]

So, to sum up - all our armour has no fuel or ammo, the FJ division has been destroyed, the English have air superiority and have approximately the same number of tanks as us, except theirs have fuel and ammo and are technically superior to most of our tanks - oh, and we are nearly surrounded.
My proposal - surrender before Hitler finds out - for Suez read Stalingrad, for Ramke read Von Paulus, for Italians read Romanians (a la Stalingrad) and for Beersheba read Arnhem:oops:

[SwordsMaster]

Damn! that was quite something....

Can we get reinforcements? Another division?

Tell Cambara to get all the italians together. Specially the Tank forces should be organised into one single powerful task force. Since we can destroy the two tank forces separately, this is what we should do. Concntrate the italians on one side, and the germans on the other, and attmpt a pincer with previouis heavy artillery bombardment and also air support. Get italian battleships into the Suez to help us with the firepower.

Let 15 PD and the FJ to keep pressing the british retreat, isolate the enemy and free the prisoners at Bersheeba, and generally keep the pressure on the region. Target british supplies to resuply themselves.

Attempt to get a Grant shipped to Germany so that countermeasures can be designed, and examine the tank carefuly for weaknesses and specific target areas.

Concentrate the artillery on the plains to hit the advancing british tanks. Use mongol tactics, feign retreat eith the italians, then hit them with the artillery and german tanks in the side or rear. We must crush them in one decisive blow. if the XV is left with no tanks, they will have to surrender.

[DemonArchangel]

Ok, we need to gather ourselves up.

1.) Where the hell is the RAF coming from?
2.) Where are our airfields?
3.) How can we get supplies to our troops?

If any of those questions can't be properly answered, we need to pull back and regroup.

[AggonyDuck]

Although the situation is rather grim, there is great potential in this situation too. What has caused our problems is a lack of a proper schwerpunkt. We tried pursuing too many things at the same time, which led to a lack of concentration at the critical points. By launching a paradrop to Palestine, while at the same time trying to capture Suez is a prime example of such divisiveness. In the end we neither had sufficient strength to capture Suez quickly or to actually breakthrough the British at Sinai fast enough in force to take advantage of the initial success of the FJ. Anyway we need to stop dividing our forces and concentrate our forces at the point of our main effort.

This is how we will salvage the situation:

1) Tell Gambara to move up Trento and Bologna to support the rest of the Italians. Two relatively fresh divisions should improve the situation considerably.

2) Secure Suez immediately, after which the 4th and 21st Panzer divisions will attack towards the west against the rear of the British forces near Cairo. The goal of the attack is to defeat and destroy the British forces currently operating against the Italians. The secondary goal is the capture of Cairo. The 3. Panzer will defend the flank of the two divisions against attacks from the south.

3) Give Kuhn orders that his priority should be to preserve the strength of the 15. PD and to act according to it.

4) Tell the Luftwaffe to concentrate its effort to protect and support our Panzer divisions. Hopefully if we can manage to protect them for a while we will be able to overrun British airfields near Cairo, which might help our situation in the air.

[Rodion Romanovich]

We made a mistake in crossing the Suez so soon, with FJs and all. The rest of the disaster was caused by our desperate scattering of forces to save the FJs while avoiding to get the road between the canal and Alexandria cut off. We can't win anything as long as the RAF has massive superiority in both planes and, apparently, airfields. What we should have done was to keep the Italians to hold the easily defensible canal line, while pushing south with the German PDs to put major British airfields out of action. Now we left a weak force to defend indefensible ground while attacking with our offensive forces over difficult, good defensive ground for our opponents.

Now, what I suggest is a total turnaround south of the force east of the canal. Save what can be saved, give full air support. Retreat to the Suez canal line, and strike towards the advance British units that are trying to cut off our paths east and west of Alexandria. Then proceed with the plan we originally should have chosen: letting the Italians hold the Suez line (thus of course also disabling British transport capability through the canal), while advancing south with the PDs. This way we'll wear down the British in the Middle east by their near blockade (their only safe means of larger-scale supply now lies in going through the Sinai desert from Al Aqaba - a difficult route), while we use our offensive weapons efficiently to strike the most vulnerable part of the British forces. Meanwhile, we can also recruit plenty of local fighters among the former British colonies (mainly Egypt) we liberate in the process.

But first the breakout. If this breakout fails, or our losses are too high, we have only two options: 1. surrender, or 2. pull back to the El Alamein line and defend until the allies land in Western Africa or the war ends.

[DemonArchangel]

Although the situation is rather grim, there is great potential in this situation too. What has caused our problems is a lack of a proper schwerpunkt. We tried pursuing too many things at the same time, which led to a lack of concentration at the critical points. By launching a paradrop to Palestine, while at the same time trying to capture Suez is a prime example of such divisiveness. In the end we neither had sufficient strength to capture Suez quickly or to actually breakthrough the British at Sinai fast enough in force to take advantage of the initial success of the FJ. Anyway we need to stop dividing our forces and concentrate our forces at the point of our main effort.

This is how we will salvage the situation:

1) Tell Gambara to move up Trento and Bologna to support the rest of the Italians. Two relatively fresh divisions should improve the situation considerably.

2) Secure Suez immediately, after which the 4th and 21st Panzer divisions will attack towards the west against the rear of the British forces near Cairo. The goal of the attack is to defeat and destroy the British forces currently operating against the Italians. The secondary goal is the capture of Cairo. The 3. Panzer will defend the flank of the two divisions against attacks from the south.

3) Give Kuhn orders that his priority should be to preserve the strength of the 15. PD and to act according to it.

4) Tell the Luftwaffe to concentrate its effort to protect and support our Panzer divisions. Hopefully if we can manage to protect them for a while we will be able to overrun British airfields near Cairo, which might help our situation in the air.

Agreed.

[King Kurt]

While the proposed plans all have some merit - but do seem to ignore the lack of petrol - none of them address the key factor of the fact that Hitler expects us to be driving triumphantly into Damascus in the next week, not to be fighting a desparate battle of survival which involves us possibly giving up the recent gains we have made. Realisticaly we can expect no furthur help, assistance, extra troops or supplies - this is due to time pressure and the strong likelyhood that Hitler would veto the sending of any supplies/ troops etc. :no:

[Franconicus]

September 1st
Speech of the American President, published in all American papers:

“Dear American fellow men!

I address these words to you. I want to give you information about what is going on outside of America and how your government will act.

Today, the war in Europe goes into the third year. On September 1st, Fascist Germany ambushed Poland, without declaration of war. Since then Germany invaded the neutral and peaceful countries of Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia and Greece. It invaded France and attacked Great Britain. At the moment, German hordes overwhelm North Africa, trying to occupy the Middle East oil fields.
Ever since the beginning of this war, your government was trying to support the forces of freedom. We gave our support to those, who had to fight for their independence and liberty. All this time, it has been the attempt of your government to keep the USA out of this war.

However, yesterday, German bombers attacked American ships in the Red Sea. They did it without declaration of war, violating any international right. Although our soldiers had not expected the heinous raid, they brought down several German planes. Four American ships were sunk, another one damaged. At the moment we do not know the number of victims. God bless their souls. Our sympathy is with their families and friends. Let me assure you, they will never be forgotten.
From that moment, the United States of America are at war with the Fascist countries of Germany and Italy. We stand side by side with our British allies, which are currently fighting at the Nile to protect the Middle East. We also offer our support to all countries willing to fight oppression. We say to them: Stand up and fight for your freedom!

Now that the United States are at war, let me assure you, that we will not stop fighting until we achieve complete victory. Let me also assure you, that the men in our armed forces are well trained, well equipped and ready to fight. Let me also assure that they will receive full support from the whole country.
May God bless you! May God bless America!”


The Kremlin publishes a political note:

The government of the peace loving Soviet Republics condemn the German aggression against the USA. We ask all parties to end this terrible war.
The government of the USSR decides to suspend the delivery of resources for the German war industry sine die. The government of the USSR also issued the order to the Red Army to secure the oil fields of Iran against any foreign aggression.

Stalin

[King Kurt]

It is with great pleasure that my 600th post is on a thread and interactive history run by my good friend Franconicus :2thumbsup:

I believe the expression is something like "Things just go from bad to worse!!":oops:

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

Well, the war is practically lost now.

[DemonArchangel]

No, no, no. Calm down guys. The Americans are going to take their sweet time doing whatever it is they do.

As soon as we clear the British out of North Africa, we have to take Gibraltar immediately, that way, it would make it impossible for the Americans to perform the Torch landings.

Also, have we seized the French Navy yet?

[AggonyDuck]

Firstly the war is not lost yet. Although the American entry to the war is grim news, it will not immediately cause us any greater problems than the US material support already is causing. The fact remains that the US will first be able to enter the war in force first during and after the summer of '42.

Our current concern should be to destroy the British forces currently arrayed against us. First the XV. Corps and then the XIII. Corps and the Syria Force. This is something that is possible do during the remainder of 1941. The exploiting and consolidation can be done in 1942.

The graver news here is the seizure of the Iranian oilfields, which were the greatest prize of this whole venture. We will just have to be content with the smaller Iraqi oilfields.




Anyway is the fuel situation really so bad that we cannot launch an offensive against the British rear? Have the British managed to destroy the stockpiles at Suez?


Additionally it might be a good idea to eventually motorise the remnants of the 1. FJ and use it as a motorised regiment to support our armoured forces. This is what we should had done in the first place. The desert is a bad place for ambitious large scale airborne assaults.

[SwordsMaster]

Maybe we should talk to the Russians. Write another Molotov-Ribbentropp dividing the Middle easter oilfields. Turkey for you, Syria for me, Iran for you, Iraq&Kuwait for me. Etc

[Kagemusha]

Maybe we should talk to the Russians. Write another Molotov-Ribbentropp dividing the Middle easter oilfields. Turkey for you, Syria for me, Iran for you, Iraq&Kuwait for me. Etc

I think its bit late for that. Now its just matter of time when the Russians will join the play, the fact is that they dont have to ask from us anymore for terms on anything,they will set terms they want and we just have to accept or they will join the war against us. Also since Russians seized Turkey how are you guys going to move that precious Iraqi oil to reich? Like i sayed already bit earlier.We are defeated.

[Franconicus]

It is with great pleasure that my 600th post is on a thread and interactive history run by my good friend Franconicus :2thumbsup: :beam:



Also, have we seized the French Navy yet?
No. This would include to occupy continental France. Is this your proposal?


1.) Where the hell is the RAF coming from?
2.) Where are our airfields?
3.) How can we get supplies to our troops?

1) From England and the US. Parts had been used at Syria, others had been held back for this battle.
2) Cairo, Amman, Jerusalem and Nicosia are the main bases. There are smaller ones for fighters too.
3) The division just state that supply is low. There is still a stock of fuel at Alexandria. The British have stocks at Suez, although they are near the bay, still in the hands of the Brits. Once you get them, you have more fuel.

There is a lack of ammo and spare parts. Imagine what desert war does to tanks, trucks and planes. Another problem is, that it is getting harder to ship the supply to its destination. The road from Alexandria is blocked and the RAF is getting painful.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Gah! Well, American entry was expected anyway, whether we would have hit these ships or not. Strategically, the war must now be considered lost, even though the Americans are not nearly as dangerous enemies as the USSR, and they still won't have any notable land forces until next spring. But they have a massive fleet and their supplying the British with tanks and other weapons will probably increase even more now that there's been an official declaration of war. Additionally, the USSR is looking to side with them, if still only passively.

My suggestion is the following: have Ramcke negotiate with the local British resistance about peace conditions. As one of the offers, say that the North African force - the most experienced elite of the German army - is ready to surrender or even change sides to the British side, if they give peace conditions that are acceptable for Germany as a country, but not favorable for the nazi leadership, who are responsible for, with their aggressive rhetoric, incompentence and brutality, drawing Poland and Britain into a war that is truly only a matter between France and Germany, and terrorizing even civilians, and mistreating POWs such that the soldiers don't dare surrender to a possibly revenge-seeking enemy even when surrender would be the best both for both Germany and her opponents. Say that the peace could include withdrawal from France as well if outside support is given to overthrowing the nazi leadership while maintaining the German military intact against French aggressions. Also say that a militarily strong Germany is necessary to prevent all of Europe from being overrun by the USSR, who have already taken Turkey, the Baltic states, half of Poland, Finland and Iran are about to take the rest of Europe and the Middle East as well. If this fails, there's no other option than to fight at the Delta for as long as possible until withdrawal to El Alamein is necessary, then fight there until withdrawal to Tunisia is necessary, then withdraw from there as well.

[SwordsMaster]

We'll be fine in Russia, guys. Instead of being silly and attacking Moscow, we'll fortify occupied Poland with extensive minefields, drive the russians into swamps, set up AAs, ATs, and trenches. Grind them down in depth. Seal off the Baltic.

With Syria in our hands we can hit Turkey from 2 directions and also get to the Caucasus much quicker. Iran should also be a fun run for our panzers.

All we need is time now.
We need time to finish off the brits, which we can.
We need time to take Gibraltar (another attempt should be made to push Spain into the war, btw. We also need to talk to Japan to coordinate...)

We need time to stop at Jerusalem, regroup, replenish, get our supplies in order, then push for Damascus while pushing for rebellion in Iraq. We must get more reinforcements then to guard the Turko-Russian border while we advance in force to Baghdad and Kuwait.

Bottom line: We'll be fine.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 68 – On a knife’s edge
Egypt, September 1st

The British counter strike created a crisis for the JCAM. However, the battle is not over. The British are deploying their last reserves and if the Axis can stand this assault, it may be possible to defeat the British 8. Army. Two points are most important, the Italians have to hold Alexandria and the German tank division have to keep their combat strength.

Ramcke gives his orders. The Fallschirmjäger units at Alexandria, still two regiments plus several special battalions, are kept as a strategic force behind the Italians. The harbour of Suez has to be seized immediately. Then the three tank divisions will attack the right flank of the XV. Corps and threaten Cairo. The 15. Panzerdivision will receive fuel and then advance to Jerusalem. The 2nd Fj-Rgt. will stay at Al Arish to secure this base. The shipping of fuel to Al Arish will be done by two Italian submarines.

During night, Cambarra tries to gather and regroup his Corps. The divisions Trento and Pavia advance south to meet and reinforce Cambarra’s soldiers. However, at the very western edge of the front, the Canadian division continues his attacks all through the night. The Canadians deploy three infantry brigades, now. Brescia cannot stand this nightly assault. Her two regiments are breaking apart. The complete Italian right flank is in disorder. Thousands of Italian soldiers are trying to reach the coast. The reinforcements of Trento try to stabilize the front, but they are swept along by the fleeing soldiers of Brescia. Panic spreads. When morning comes, Trento manages to stop the Canadians only 50 km from the coast.
In the meantime, the combat of Suez continues. During night, German artillery and planes bombard the harbour of Suez. In the morning hours, German infantry assaults the last British stands. The last survivors of the Britsih battalion surrender.

At Al Arish, two Italian submarines arrive during night. Rommel does not wait until their load is distributed. He gives all fuel to the one tank regiment and sends it on the road to Jerusalem.

About 10 a.m. the intensity of the battle increases. At the very west, the Canadians run against Trento, again. This time they are accompanied by more than 100 tanks. Trento, having only 8 ATG, tries to stop the assault with artillery. However, the British tanks run at full speed. They break into the lines of the Italian infantry. Seeing the British tanks right between their positions, the Italian infantry gives up the fight. Within a short time, the Canadian gather about 5,000 prisoners. At 11:45 the Canadians reach the coast 50 km southwest of Alexandria.

Already at 10:00 the 1st Armoured Division had attacked Ariete. The Italian tank division had regrouped during night. Now they entered another battle. The British deployed about 200 tanks, Ariete 68. The Italians fighted with defiance of death. However, the British division proved its deadly superiority. After half an hour, 50 Italian tanks were disabled. Ariete streamed backwards, heading for Alexandria. The British drove them into the town. Only the massive deployment of German and Italian planes could slow the British down, so that the Italians could escape inside the defence of the town.

About 2:00, General Schmidt gives the order to the 4th and 21st Tank Division to advance against Cairo. The divisions have regrouped and have received fuel from the British stocks.

As soon as the tanks start rolling outside the town, the sky is full of British planes. Bombers and ground attack planes attack everything, especially the unarmed escort vehicles. Infantry, artillery, supply and communication units have high casualties. Then the divisions come into range of the 2nd Division of South Africa. The soldiers of General Klopper welcome the Germans with strong artillery and machine gun fire. The African hold the fort for over an hour, and then they have to retreat westwards. The German tanks follow them.

At 17:00, Schmidt’s division come up against another line of defence. This time the defence is even stronger. It is the 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division, led by General Martel. This fresh division lies in a good position, among hill, protected by tank trenches and mines. Although the trenches are not end-to-end and the mines are rather few, they are a serious hurdle for the German attackers. Schmidt has to break up the first assault and wait until infantry and artillery are ready to support the tanks. All the time the divisions are exposed to air raids.

At Alexandria, the British try to assault the town from southern direction. However, the combined fire of Bologna and the German Fallschirmjäger is too strong. The British return.
At 16:00 an assault detachment, composed of the Sturmregiment of the Fallschirmjäger, the remaining 16 tanks of Ariete and the 66th Italian Inf. Rgt. sally out. They attack the Canadians that block the road to Mersa Matruh. This assault is supported by German Stukas and fighters as well as by artillery fire of two Italian destroyers. The Canadians are taken by surprise and after a short but bloody combat the Axis soldiers blaze a trail through the lines of the Allies.

Before night falls, the troops of General Schmidt make another attempt to assault Cairo. However, without sufficient artillery and infantry, they are not able to break through the lines of the Northumbrians.

When night falls, the fronts west of Suez become low. All sides are too exhausted to make further efforts during night.

What has happened on the other side of the Channel? The 8. Panzerregiment of the 15. Panzerdivision had already started the mission before the first light of day. General Kuhn led the remaining 100 tanks northwards. His goal was Jerusalem. He knew that he followed the retreating columns of the 11. Indian Battalion and the 4. Armoured Brigade. From time to time the regiment was attacked by British planes. These attacks slowed down the advance, but caused little damage. 60 km in front of Jerusalem, the regiment was shelled by heavy artillery. Kuhn ordered his men to stretch the line and to attack. Soon afterwards, they saw the British position. There were about 40 guns, guarded by infantry and ATGs. Additionally, there were about 100 tanks placed at the left flank of the British position. Kuhn told his men to attack. At high speed the German drivers conducted their tanks to the British guns. Two, three tanks were hit, and then the tanks were close enough to open fire. At the same time the British tanks entered combat and tried to outmanoeuvre the Germans. Combat was hard and after one hour and a half the British had to leave the ground. Their armoured force was reduced to 18 tanks. Although victorious, the Germans had lost about 60 tanks. Kuhn decided to stay for the night and to try to repair some of the damaged tanks. He also had to wait for fuel and the rest of the division.

Rommel is already on the way with the rest of the division, the 115. Rifle Regiment and the 33. Artillery Regiment. Al Arish is secured by the rest of the 2. Fj. Rgt.. Half on the way to his tank regiment Rommel receives a radio message from the defenders of Al Arish. It tells him that the town is completely cut off by Australian forces.

Ramcke receives a message from the head quarter at Greece. Due to the development at Egypt, the 12. Army will start to invade Cyprus tomorrow.
The German air command started to transfer squadrons from Sicily to Northern Africa. Although this weakens the air patrols over the sea significantly, the African front needs more air support urgently.
This evening, Romania, Slovenia and Hungary declare war against the United States of America. Spain complaints about the hostilities between Germany and the US. Franco declares that he wants to preserve good relations to both countries.

At Tokyo the office of the Imperial General Staff announces, that the Japanese army started an invasion to defeat Chinese terrorists and to end the conflict in China.

At Iran, a Soviet army crosses the border to Iran. During the first day, the Persian defense is weak. Then the Persians manage to slow the invaders down. The Shah contacts the American President and asks for help. Roosevelt responds, that unfortunately, the Iranian oilfields have to be protected for the fight against Fascism. During night, American soldiers land at the coast of Iran.

[SwordsMaster]

Great chapter Franc. So what are our choices?

USA and USSR are going to war! Fantastic! We still have a shot.

We must seize Cairo now! Rommel should turn around and secure his rear - he'd know that himself.

We also need big old italian battleships. It doesn't amtter if they don't move much - we just need the guns - we need them ASAP in Alexandria to help in the defence and in Suez to block the channel and support the forces going into Cairo.

We need tank replacements, ammo, supplies. Shipping from the mother country should be improved.


Cairo must be taken, then the surviving italians, FJ, planes, and tanks should shell the brits until they surrender. Unable to take Alexandria, with no supply depots left, they will have no choice and will surrender within few days.

[DemonArchangel]

Gather up our forces for one last push on Cairo. It will fall. We already have the Suez.

In the meantime, we have to take Gibraltar to completely block off the Mediterranean from assault. Talk to Franco about it. Convince him that if we take Gibraltar, we can block the Americans off from invading. (This is true).

After defeating the 8th Army and pushing into Syria and Iraq, we might want to let the U.S and USSR fight it out first, before moving in. In the West, we should prepare to invade the British Isles, in order to quash the British once and for all.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Jeez, now we're screwed. Rommel advancing instead of retreating as he should have, so that his path back to the main force is now completely cut off... And the path between El Alamein and the main force at Alexandria cut off as well, our entire force thereby effectively surrounded... Well, only a desperate manouvre and luck can save the forces from complete destruction now. Rommel should go back to Al Arish. The forces to the west must open the road west of Alexandria again before the supply situation is completely beyond repairs. The Canadians should be an isolated and easily overrun target in their position at the coast, if faced with a PD. I suggest keeping 2 PDs at Suez, while sending 1 PDs to the western flank to wipe out the Canadians quickly together with the FJ reserve we have there (insert them as regular infantry). Then the western flank PDs and the PD at Suez will strike south and converge on Cairo - the eastern flank could begin its move already now. Unfortunately because we didn't retreat from Al Arish, we have one less PD than we would have needed to pull off this manouvre effectively, but 3 PDs and 1 (almost full) FJ should be enough for victory - as long as the supplies aren't totally beyond worst imagination. The Canadians haven't really captured any well defensible ground or had time to consolidate, so their position is still very unstable.

About USSR and USA going to war: I'm not so sure. The Americans haven't declared war on the USSR. Most likely, they're invading Iran officially to "support the USSR operation", while in reality trying to grab as much oil as possible to prevent the Soviets from getting it. They most likely consider the USSR a threat, but they won't go to war if they can avoid it. Unless we take active actions of some form of another to make the issue heat up.

[AggonyDuck]

Okay, I don't think we can go through the 50. Division, so we will just have to go around it.

Here's my suggestion for what to do next:

1) The 4. Panzer will remain facing the 50. Division, while the 21. Panzer will bypass it from the north and strike it in the rear. The 3. Panzer will leave a portion of it's infantry to garrison Suez and move the rest to join the 4. Panzer as a reserve. After all, with the retreat of the 2. SA-div, there is very little left to threaten Suez from the south. Once the 3. Panzer has joined the 4th, I will leave it to Schmidt how to best utilise the division.

2) Rommel will be given a free hand in how to manage the battle around Palestine. It is close to impossible to control him, so why even bother when it will only hamper his efforts?

3) Tell Gambara that he must do his utmost to hold against the British assaults. As long as the Italians hold Alexandria, we will be able to defeat the British.

[AggonyDuck]

One thing we need to think over. The 21. Panzer Division can bypass the 50. Northumbrian Division. The question is just where are we going to direct it. There are two options here; either we move it north towards Tanta to threaten the rear of the two British divisions engaging the Italians or we just bypass the 50th to attack it in the flank.

Maybe it might actually be more worth our time to halt our drive towards Cairo and instead direct our strongest armoured division towards the rear of the 1st Armoured? After all defeating the British divisions in the north would allow the full force of the JCAM to descend upon Cairo later on. This option would stabilize the situation in the north, but it would also stop any armoured thrust towards Cairo. Also it would allow the British divisions in the North a chance to avoid destruction.

The other option is to first defeat the 50. Northumbrian, seize Cairo and first then direct our advance towards the north. This has the advantage of seizing the primary enemy supply depot, cutting off the enemy divisions in the north, thus trapping the British forces in the Nile Delta area. The disadvantage here is that the forces in the North will have to hold on without support longer.

[Franconicus]

Use 3., 4. and 21. Panzerdivision
Option 1: to assault Cairo.
Option 2: to attack the rear of British 1st Armoured
Option 3: to go to Alexandria and to reastroe connection to Mersa and Rommel.

P.S. The Italian battleships are still in the docks.

:grin2: Wow, more than 10,000 views! :birthday2: :elephant: :thrasher:

[King Kurt]

Option 3 I think - we can't carry on attacking everything in sight while or rear is not secure. Alexandria is not secure, so we must concentrate on that. Cario will be difficult for the English to maintain if Suez has fallen. so no need to attack there. An attack on the 1st will involve us in another slog and we need to consilidate at the moment. We have to realise that we will not be able to punch through to the Middle East oil fields - Iraq, Iran etc - before the Russians/ Yanks get there. Even if we get past Jerlusalem, we have to wade through the Golan Heights/ Syria etc. So we need to consolidate what we have and Alex is key to that. We should also ask for the invasion of Cyprus to be called off - it diverts forces from us and has little strategic value.

[King Kurt]

Wow, more than 10,000 views![/B] :birthday2: :elephant: :thrasher:

And I think most have been me!!! - well done Franc on another landmark - my 600th post and 10,000 views in the same week:2thumbsup:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Option 3 I think - we can't carry on attacking everything in sight while or rear is not secure. Alexandria is not secure, so we must concentrate on that. Cario will be difficult for the English to maintain if Suez has fallen. so no need to attack there. An attack on the 1st will involve us in another slog and we need to consilidate at the moment. We have to realise that we will not be able to punch through to the Middle East oil fields - Iraq, Iran etc - before the Russians/ Yanks get there. Even if we get past Jerlusalem, we have to wade through the Golan Heights/ Syria etc. So we need to consolidate what we have and Alex is key to that. We should also ask for the invasion of Cyprus to be called off - it diverts forces from us and has little strategic value.
I agree :2thumbsup:

[DemonArchangel]

Kurt: Bit too late to call off the invasion of Cyprus NOW, don't you think?

Franc: If we can manage it, divert a division of infantry headed for Cyprus to North Africa, or divert some of the 12th Army's supplies. If we get both, that would be the best.

[AggonyDuck]

Option 2: to attack the rear of British 1st Armoured

This is the best option in my opinion. An attack against Cairo might end up wasting a lot of armour, while restoring the connection with Alexandria will not defeat the British. We need to attack to do so and sending the 21. Panzer to attack the rear of the British armour is the best way to do so. After the 1st Armoured has been defeated it is just a matter of mopping up the enemy in the vicinity of Cairo.

[Franconicus]

Chapter 69 – Alexander’s Triumph
September 2nd

During night Ramcke receives a coded message from headquarter. Hitler changed the global strategy. The invasion of Russia, scheduled for next spring, has highest priority now. Middle East is no longer targeted for this year. The invasion of Cyprus is called off. The new goals for the JCAM is to hold the western bank of the Suez Channel, to block the channel itself and to tie up as many allied forces as possible.

Ramcke decides to regroup. 4. and 21. PD have to come to Alexandria. From there they can control all direction. 4.PD has to hold the fort at Suez. There is also a message send to the 15.PD, to return to Ismailie, but there is no reply from Rommel.

During September 2nd, the German tanks march northwards, always attacked by British planes. The Axis air forces make no more appearance.
British tanks appear at the costal road to Marsa and cause a panic among the retreating Italian soldiers. The British raid is dangerous, as there are only some rear units at Mersa. Nothing that could withstand a tank assault.

September 3rd:
The 3.PD is under pressure. During night the Northumbrian made several trials to penetrate Suez Town. Model’s division could repel them, but they has not enough infantry and artillery. British troops bypassed the town in the north.
In the morning Ramcke meets the division commanders and explains his strategy. He tells them that Pavia will replace the 3.PD. Model will lead his division to Ismailie to secure the connection to Alexandria and to keep a gate open in case Rommel manages to get his division to the channel. 21.PD advances to Marsa while 4.PD will secure Alexandria together with Bologna, Trieste, and the Fallschirmjäger. Once this deployment is done, the forces at Alexandria will advance to Cairo and beat XV. Corps.
During the meeting it comes to an éclat. The Italian commanders blame the Germans for the failure of the operation.

Cambarra: “The whole operation turned into a disaster. The German command misjudged the situation. The Italian Mobile Corps had to attack the superior British XV. Corps, while four German tank divisions chased the already beaten XIII. Corps. Although the Italian soldiers fought with bravery and mastery, they did not stand a chance against the British tank division. The British had more tanks, better tanks and superior infantry. The Italian soldiers were slaughtered without a cause.”

Hearing this, Schmidt explodes: “Your words are ridiculous. Wasn’t it your corps, your own failure that caused disaster? Your corps had to screen the Panzergruppe against the XV.. How could the British break through so easily? Now the German tank divisions are isolated and have to return to avert danger. This campagne failed because of the failure of the Italian divisions. The Italians always fight half-hearted. You are no good at all. We would be better off without you.”

“Alright! Then why don’t you fight your own war all alone, German Übermensch? We do not intend to stand in your way any longer!”

Schmidt: “O.k.! Run away! Leave us alone! I have not expect anything else from you!”

The Italian commaders leave the meating. Ramcke goes after them and tries to becalm them. However, they refuse to send any soldiers to Suez.
There is still no news from the 15.PD. However, there are a lot of radiograms from the 3.PD. It is under constand artillery fire and at least two British divisions are besiegeing Suez. There is no contact to the rest of the Panzergruppe. In the afternoon, Ramcke orders the division to give up Suez and to Ismailie. Modle’s men break through the besieger and fortify a new position at Ismailie.

In the afternoon there is a radiogram from the headquarter of the Luftwaffe. Göring asks Ramcke to collect all works of art and value that can be found at Alexandria and to ship them to Naples.
During night, soldiers are approaching the position of the 3. from the other side of the Channel. To their surpise they are German. It is the rest of Rommel’s division.

After the tank battle south of Jerusalem, only 40 tanks were left. Rommel realized, that he did not have the strength to continue his advance, esp. regarding the dangerous situation at Al Arish. Therefore, he took his division and turned south again. The panzerregiment had to act as rear guard, while the rifle regiment took lead. The British had reveived reinforcements and in the morning they started another tank assault to destroy the German division. Rommel deployed the well known 8,8 guns. They were able to slow the British down, so that the rest of the division could reach Al Arish. Here, the armoured cars of the riflemen broke through the lines of the Australians. The Australians were taken by surprise. Rommel captured trucks and fuel, enough to mobilize the 2. Fj. Reg.. Together, the two units continued to march south until they finally reached Isamilie. The 15.PD still had 12 tanks. Most of the artillery is lost. However, Rommel made 3,000 Australian POWs.
Rommel tells Model that the Australians are after him, supported by about 100 tanks.

September 4th:
The first planes arrive from Sicily. Ramcke decides to make a new effort to get the situation under control. He orders 4. and 21. PD as well as the Fj. to advanve south to attack Cairo. He also sends an order to Model and Rommel to prompt them to assault Suez.
In the morning, the combined tank force of the 4. and the 21. PD, in total 154 tanks, attacks the position of the 1. Armoured Division. They hit the fortified positions of the 201. Guards Brigade.
The German tanks are supported by ground attack planes and bombers. Fallschirmjäger of the Sturmregiment accompany the tanks and assault the positions of the British Guards. At ten o’clock the Germans break through.
Now British shells rain down on the invaders. The German air force tries to localize and to silence the British artillery, but now the Desert Air Force has entered the battle, too. While the tanks advance, the battle in the skies begins.

At 11:00 the British commander, General Lumsden, sends his tanks to stop the Germans. The British have an advantage of 200 against 150 tanks. However, combat shows that the German tanks are superior. Although the ‘Lee’ shows that it gun is deadly to German tanks too, it is too slow and the German tanks can outmaneuvre their British opponents. The British light tanks are faster than the German Mark III and IV, but their guns are to weak to penetrate the front armor of the Germans.
After half an hour the British have to retreat towards Tanta. The leave about 40 tanks behind. 5. Pz.Rgt. advances south. However, General Thoma realizes that the supporting infantry is still pinned down by artillery fire and he stops his tank until the infantry closes ranks.
About noon the defense of the British becomes stiffer. The German advanced platoons get in contact with a position of the South Africans. The British tanks make another couterstrike, this time supported by ground attack planes. Thoma and Langermann can repel the British, but casualties are increasing. They also receive the news that Rommel and Model refuse to attack Suez. They have only 60 tanks in total, their infantry and their artillery are weakened too. The men are exhausted. South of Ismailie there are the Northumbrian getting ready to assault the town. On the eastern bank, British troops arrive with infantry, tanks and artillery. At 11:30 the British start bombarding Ismailie.

West of Alexandria, the Canadians attack positions of Trieste and push the Italians back to the coastal road.

At 15:00 Ramcke breaks of the offensive. 21. PD has to remain at Tanta and to secure the road to Ismailie, while 4.PD has to clear the situation west of Alexandria.

September 5th:
The road to Marsa is open again. However, the pressure on Ismailie is getting bigger and the German divisions have to go back to Tanta. Now the Channel is British again and the connection between the two British corps is reinstalled.

The Luftwaffe flies a raid with 60 bombers against Suez. There is damage at the docks and two ships sink in the habor.
Two transporters sink at the entrance of Alexandria after British air raids. Another two merchant ships sink near Sicily torpedoed by British submarines.

September 6th:
The Britsih bomb Alexandria with 80 bombers. The Panzergruppe still does not get enough supply. The Italians use submarines to bring fuel into town. The Germans give up Tanta and retreat to Alexandria.

September 7th:
The Supreme Headquarter recall Ramcke. JCAM is disbanded. General Rommel is appointed to be new commander of the Panzergruppe Afrika. He receives order to hold Alexandria at any cost.
The new Italian infantry division Savona is transferred to Tobruk. The German ‘Afrikadivision’ with two rifle regiments is transferred to Tripoli.
In the evening, British artillery begins shelling Alexandria. At night there is another air raid with about 350 bombers.

September 8th-12th:
Against the orders from Berlin, Rommel decides to evacuate Alexandria and to retreat to the El Alamein line. At September 12th the Axis troops deploy between El Alamei and the Great Depression. The British occupy Alexandria, but they do not attack Rommel during his retreat.

The Italian High Command decides to recall the Italian divisions at Africa and to replace them by the armoured division Centauro, parachutist division Folgore and the infantry divisions Savona, Sabratha, Cirene and Sirte.
All raids against the British islands are stopped. The casualties of submarines are increasing. The numbers of sunken ships go down. Without new technologies, the battle of the Atlantic cannot be won.

September 21st:
Rommel still has problems with supply. British submarines and bombers conflict high casualties among the costal transports. One Italian infantry division has arrived at the front, as well as two fresh German infantry regiments. However, there is still no replacement for the lost tanks. Although the British are inactive, Rommels receive news that they receive fresh forces.
General Alexander makes a military parade at Alexandria.

September 25th
Rommel decides to leave the El Alamein position and to retreat to Sollum line. This position, also called ‘Vandal Line’ is 200 km closer to Tobruk. Rommel hopes to improve his supply situation.

Alexandria is once more the base for the British Mediterranena Fleet.
Russian minister Molotov declares that the military operation at Persia has come to an end. There is a friendly agreement with the American authorities how to cooperate at Iran. A new Iranian government has been installed.
The Japanese declare that the operation against Chinese terrorists is going well. The Imperial Army has already captured 30,000 enemies.

September 27th
The government of the United States announces a wide spread embarg against Japan.

German government announces that in 1941 the production of planes will increase from 10,000 to 14,000. In 1942 the production will be increased to 16,000.

The tank production goes up to 3,700 in 1941. This is an increase of more than 100 % compared to the previous year. In 1942 the production volume will be increased by another 1,000 units.

Due to this high production volume and the superior performance of German weapons against weapons of any other nation, the German Army Command is sure that Germany can counter the efforts of the USA and the USSR. The command points at the fact, that the concept of mass production, that is used in the United States, may be applyable for cars, but not for high tech product like military planes and tanks. It also points at the fact that the Soviet Union is actually not able to produce a compatible tank or a compatible plane. It will take at least five years of development until the Soviets will catch up.

However, the prognosis for 1942 estimates that the resources of the Soviet Union will be available. If there will be no more deliveries from Russia, there will be a dramatic impact on production after spring 1942.

October 3rd:
German Intelligence reports that the Soviets are going to transfer divisions from the eastern military districts to the western districts.

December 1941:
The Soviets reinforce their western districts with a significant number of divisions from Far East.

Japan attacks the American fleet at Pearl Harbor. The US and Great Britain declare war.

January 1942:
British bombers start a strategic pffensive against occupied Europe.

March 1942:
Start if the German aggression against the USSR. Although the Soviet command has been informed, Axis troops overrun the Russian positions. German divisions advance all along the border. The Soviet positions at the Bosporus are taken. Turkey declares war against Germany. In the first weeks the invaders capture several hundredthousands soldiers, destroy or capture thousands of planes and tanks.

Sommer 1942:
Appearance of American Army divisions on the British islands. Increased intensity of air raids against Germany

The British 8th Army launches an invasion against the Panzergruppe Afrika. Although Rommel has received supply and reinforcements, the Allied forces have an overwhelming superiority. After lossy fights the Axis has to retreat from the Cyreneika.

At Russia, the German advance is slowed down. At the southern front, there is a counter invasion of the Soviet forces.

Fall 1942:
German casualties are increasing. It is obvious that the targets for 1941 will not be achieved. It is getting difficult to supply the German armies and to replace the losses of men and material. The German industrial production suffers from lack of natural resources. With combined efforts the Germans manage to keep the level of production constant. The number of British bombers engaged by raids against Germany is increasing constantly. The Germans organize a quite effective defense against nightly raids.
American bombers start bombing Germany during daylight.

Winter 1942:
Allied forces invade Northwest Africa. General Alexander starts another operation against the Axis troops at Africa. The Axis has no choice but to leave Lybia. In Italy there are protests and strikes against the war. Hitler has to send several divisions to keep Italy in the war.

During winter, the Soviet army tries to drive the Germans out of the country. The focus is on the southern sector. Both sides have high casualties. The Germans manage to hold their positions.

Spring 1943
Hitler has to send more divisions to prevent Allied invasions of Italy, Southern and Northern France. The German army starts another operation to break the Red Amry. However, the Russians repel the invasion.

Sommer 1943
Now the Russians start assaulting. This time they break through the German lines. Again their focus is the southern front. Thousand of Soviet tanks break through. The Soviets invade Romania and get control of the oil fields.
The Western Allies land at Italy. Italy capitulates. German troops retreat northwards.

Fall 1943
The fronts are quiet while the Allies build up armies for new operations.

Winter 1943
The Soviets start a new invasion. This time they break through at the Polish front. At February the advanced tank divisions enter German territory.

Spring 1943
The Soviets reach the suburbs of Berlin. Another shock army invades Yugoslavia. Allied troops land at France.

Sommer 1943
At the eastern front the German army breaks apart. There is no more coordinated defense against the Soviet invaders. At France the Allies liberate Paris and advance towards the German border.

In August Germany surrenders.
:egypt:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Well, defeat was expected... ~:) :charge: but a bit sooner than I thought.

Thanks for a great Interactive, Franc! It has been great entertainment for almost an entire year :2thumbsup:

[King Kurt]

Franc - congratulations on another superb and highly enjoyable interactive. The idea of first gathering information then taking part in the action was a good one and worked well. In particular, I liked the military insight of what might have happened if the Germans had broken through at El Alamein. It was always thought - especialy in the UK - that if a breakthrough had occured then a swift and easy advance through Egypt, the Middle East would occur with possibly even India itself being threatened. However, as the interactive showed so well, the Western Desert battle field is an odd one - like fighting in a long corridor. When the Germans came out into the "big room" of Egypt, they did not have the resources and forces to defeat the Allies - especially as they rule the waves. Even with the taking of Malta, the Axis did not have the shipping to keep a substanial force in the field.
Interactives should provide us with an opportunity to explore possible variations in history - to do "what ifs" from the comfort of our computers. The sucess of this one has been that it informed us about many of the details of a slightly unfashionable theatre, presented us with a chain of decisions which created a wonderful "what if" story and gave us a fascinating insight into a chain of events which unfolded in an unsuspected way. In short, it was informative, caused great debate, surprised us and entertained us for the best part of a year or more - well done.

And what of our hero, Ramcke?.... I like to think of him slipping quietly back to Bavaria and writting an optimistic set of memoirs, the only copy of which sits on the bookshelf of my old friend Franconicus.:2thumbsup:

[Kagemusha]

Thanks for this great journey Franc!While i stopped answering to the options i never stopped reading the chapters.:bow:

[AggonyDuck]

Shame about the loss. Anyway thank you Franc for this superb Interactive History. It has given me a lot to think about and that is always wonderful. That said, would you mind writing a commentary of the Interactive History and point out what exactly went wrong. To me it appeared that the German situation was still salvageable up to the last decision, but overall I think we botched up a promising situation with our operations at the Suez Channel and the Nile Delta.

[King Kurt]

overall I think we botched up a promising situation with our operations at the Suez Channel and the Nile Delta.
I'm not so sure - see my comments above about the large room effect. Idealy we should have taken Alexandria, secured the Suez Canal line to protect our flank and then concentrated on defeating the British army in Egypt. However, Hitler wanted us in Iran ASAP, so we were forced to press on into Palestine. The interesting thing about having to defeat the English in Egypt would have been that they could have carried on pulling back, possibly even into Ethiopia/ Horn of Africa giving the Germans ever increasing supply lines etc. If you think of it, the British were not defending their homeland, so casually giving up terriority for tactical reasons would have been no problem. The key is that the English navy is so strong - especially in comparison to the Germans - that they will always be in a stronger supply position than we were.

Personally, I don't think the use of the FJ in the attack on Palestine was very inspired - felt like a "we got them, let's use them" knee jerk reaction. With hindsight, they would have been better used as quality infantry.

So I think we have the same get out as all those German General memoirs - We could have won, but Hitler stopped us:laugh4:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Personally, I don't think the use of the FJ in the attack on Palestine was very inspired - felt like a "we got them, let's use them" knee jerk reaction. With hindsight, they would have been better used as quality infantry.
I agree, exactly what I felt, and no doubt this move was our biggest mistake in the entire interactive. I remember one or two other mistakes earlier in the campaign, but they were much less crucial in comparison. Would have been interesting to reenact the British retreat into East Africa scenario. Personally, I feel we could have succeeded in penetrating a small bit into the near Middle East, but our position in the delta would require a permanent garrison and eventually it would have been forced to pull out - maybe in 1943 - as the allied resources grew with the entry of USSR and USA into the war. Bear in mind that if we had only taken control over the most crucial areas of the delta, the nearest British airfields and supply bases of significant strength would be quite far away, so a British retake of the Delta would have been logistically tricky and costly even with a superior navy. Moreover, it would have resulted in completely cutting off the Mediterranean for the British. Again, however, the superior resources of the allies would have made a war victory impossible. A landing in West Africa, for instance, would have been a big threat to the entire Mediterranean theatre plans, as with a garrison in the Nile delta it would have been difficult to gather enough reserves to resist a British or British/American landing in West Africa. Only way to create a strong defensive position there would have been by attacking Vichy France, something that would worsen the overall situation significantly. So the war would still have been lost, eventually.

As for German victory in the war, I think the only way it could realistically have been achieved would be by not attacking Poland (maintaining a useful buffer zone for the USSR, and negating Britain and France their casus belli) in the first place, as well as avoiding all other atrocies, as this could have led the entire world to turn their attention towards Stalin's regime, which would then be a greater and more feared demon, that the world would have been more eager to defeat. With the attack on Poland and a number of atrocities, German defeat would mean German defeat, and German victory would have meant entry of other major players in the war to prevent completely destroyed power balance, especially to a regime proven to be brutal, and thus no matter the military fortune defeat would have been the only alternative. Anyway, that was far from apparent back then, when (the slightly misunderstood interpretations of) the philosophy of Clausewitz was the latest "research" within the field of politics and warfare.

[DemonArchangel]

Wow.... so it's over.

Umm... that was swift. Franc, you doing another one?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, another one please! :smash:

[SwordsMaster]

Great interative Franc! Pity about the defeat, but i think our biggest mistake was to give up Turkey. That showed the Russians we couldn't defend our interests, and allowed them to bring the fight to us...

[DemonArchangel]

IMO, our biggest mistake was simply not committing enough resources to the war effort. Not enough shipping, not enough supplies, not enough materiel. The ultimate lesson to be drawn from this is that an army marches on its stomach.

Tactically speaking, we should have moved southwards to capture Cairo instead of immediately going for the Suez. Also, we became scattered, with no schwerpunkt during the entire Suez operation.

[Franconicus]

Thank you all for the flowers! And thank you for your support. Most important thing for an interactive is – the interaction!

Maybe some words about my concept. When I started the whole thing, I was under the impression of Kraxis’ latest outstanding IA. I had the feeling that most of the players would like to have more room for own suggestions. I also was under the impression of the GOOGLE THIS thread, where people found incredible things in the www. Therefore, I wanted to make a widely open IA where the players should add ideas and information.

I have to admit that this was only partially successful.

I divided the story in two parts. First part was a kind of introduction, where the players could learn the boundaries and decide the master strategy and a second, tactical part. I have to admit that the strategic part was way too long.

Regarding your mistakes, I can only tell you, that I am not wiser than you are. My only advantage is that I make the decisions. Therefore my opinion dominates, regardless if it is wrong or right.

On the strategic part you had many options to change the strategy of Germany. There was Spain/Gibraltar, Vichy-France, Turkey, Russia, ... just to mention a few. I had expected to be overwhelmed by new ideas, but to my surprise there were only few. There was a discussion about invading Gibraltar via Spain (something that the Germans actually discussed) and the invasion of Malta (a proposal you can read in every book). It would have been very interesting, if you had chosen to cooperate with the French or to invade Turkey. So, the story went into the direction of the real Africakorps history.

What was the strategy of your enemies? Well, it was obvious that Britain had decided to fight. Churchill was not willing to give up Africa or the Middle East without a fight. However, his highest priority was to pull the US into war and as many other nations as possible. Like in real life, he was successful. The US was going into war, in fact they were already. They had a big influence on the neutral states. The US made Spain stay out of war; it also influenced the position of Turkey. It shipped loads of weapons to Britain and tried to secure bases like Iceland. In case of an invasion of Spain, the US would have occupied The Canaries and the Azores.

The Soviet Union tried to prepare for the time after the war. Stalin tried to get a position, where he could repel any threat from the winner, the Allies, he expected. The occupation of the strait of Istanbul was directed mainly against the Allies. However, he was not pleased about the German occupation of the Balkans. One possible strategy would have been to support the Russian claims against Turkey. This would have brought Russia in opposition to the British Empire.

Once you decided to put the focus on Africa, the boundaries were clear. Main limitations were supply and time. Hitler would have given you as much division as you wished, but you could not supply more than four! And it took time to deploy them.

There were some options to bypass the supply problem. Taking Gibraltar would have given you the chance to transfer transport ships from Germany and France to the Mediterranean. Invading Turkey would have given you the chance to deploy more divisions, while the Brits would have had to fight at two fronts.
Attacking Malta improved the supply situation, but only little. In 1941 Malta was a minor problem. You could have sent an air corps to neutralize the island (like the Germans did! Rommel had no casualties transferring his troops to Africa) Malta became a problem after the invasion of Russia, when the Germans did not have enough planes to put the Brits down.

The occupation of Malta had two other disadvantages. First, your Fallschirmjäger were out of the game for several months. Second, it was a clear signal to the Brits that you plan a major operation at Africa.

The defeat at Cape Matapan took a lot of the benefits of seizing Malta.

As a result the Brits send fewer divisions to Greece than they did in real life.

One principle problem with interactives is, that it is almost impossible to execute a long time plan. For example, you had decided to wait with the invasion until at least one tank corps had deployed. During the next chapters, however, you let Rommel perform his own warfare. I think it would have been much better to wait. The British could do little but wait, at least as long as the invasion of Greece was going on. So you could have built up your army, at least two tank divisions, and then killed Wavell. Then you would have had a good chance to take Tobruk at the first assault. Then you would have gained time!

The British tactic was simple. Trying to slow down the German advance, conserving the British forces and attacking the German supply.

When you got stuck at Tobruk, you did what most commanders do (maybe not the skilled ones), you asked for more troops: pioneers, heavy artillery, special forces, more planes. All that stretched your supply!

Do you remember operation “Penguin”? The second invasion against Tobruk? The plan was to bypass the defence and get into the rear. The operation started according plan. Of course there were casualties during the break through and Bir Hakim could stand longer than expected. The British Armoured Division started a counter strike and was repelled. So far everything was as expected. However, you realized that your divisions were behind the British lines, had had casualties and you panicked. You could have assaulted Tobruk this time. (What you did not know was that the British were just changing the garrison). Here you lost time again. You had to refill your troops, time for the Brits to reorganize their defence. The British used to pull out exhausted divisions and to refill them in the delta. Then they were sent back into the battle. That is the main reason why the British had only few divisions at the front, but could get fresh ones from time to time.

About that time the relation between the Italians and the Germans began to cool down. This had several reasons. First, the Italians had overcome the shock of the previous defeat. Second, the battles around Tobruk were costly and not fruitful. The order to execute the Polish prisoners fostered the erosion.

After the fall of Tobruk, the British realized that they had to fight in the delta soon. They started with their preparations. Marsa and El Alamein where positions to slow the Germans down, but there was no intention to hold them at any cost. The 8. Army had to be kept intact! The British also decided to invade Syria. From the British view it was likely that the Germans would overrun Turkey now to support the invasion of Egypt. The Syria campaign prepared a defence here and was a demonstration to the Turkish that the British were still alive and able for offensive operations.

About that time the British finally realized that the Germans won’t invade the islands. They started transferring troops to Egypt;, mainly bombers, but also fighters, 1st Armoured Division and 50. Northumbrian. They could also transfer units from East Africa and received more planes from the US. Alexander decided not to throw these reinforcements into the desert battle, but to keep them at the delta, where they could be supplied best and where the Germans will have supply problems.

The battle of Marsa including a frontal assault through fortified positions inflicted high casualties, esp. among the Italians. This created a serious crisis and lowered their moral. The British did not intend to fight until the end and managed to retreat, although they had high casualties too. Battle of El Alamein was probably the most successful one, as several British divisions were destructed. The British corps was substantially tattered.

The final battle at the delta was a complete disaster. Here I think were the major mistakes (although the war was lost anyway!).
1) You had too many troops. You could not supply them properly. This lowered the combat strength and the moral.
2) The moral of the Italians was low.
3) Although you had quite reliable information about the deployment of the Brits, you ignored the fact that there was a strong corps with 400 tanks at Cairo, and decided to attack the crippled corps with only 100 tanks left.
4) The deployment of the FJ was critical. You already had lost the dominance in the skies. With the deployment of the Fj far behind the lines, the goals, route and schedule of your invasion was fixed. It wasn’t hard for the British commanders to calculate what your tanks were doing.
5) Suez should have been your major target. It would have been better to attack the town with infantry. So you lost many tanks before the battle had started.
6) The Italians had to repel the assault of the strong Cairo Corps. Something they could not do. The British had several fresh divisions, much more and better tanks and air support.

Resume: Thank you all for the good time!:egypt:

[Franconicus]

Franc, you doing another one?
Maybe! However, I would need some help!!


And what of our hero, Ramcke?....
Maybe something like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann-Bernhard_Ramcke

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cd/Hermann-Bernhard_Ramcke.jpg/250px-Hermann-

[DemonArchangel]

Franc: For the next interactive, I have a few suggestions, and I would be honored if you made one of my suggestions into an Interactive.

The Israeli/Arab Wars: Anything through 1948-Present
Byzantium: Komenan restoration period.
Reconquista Interactive (roughly 1100 A.D)
Crusades Interactive
Teutonic Knights Interactive
Late Roman Empire Interactive
WWII Pacific Interactive

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks for the summary, Franc. It contained some things I thought during the story that are now nice to get confirmed, and also some things I bitterly realized in hindsight, as well as a few completely new things: in particular our missed opportunity to capture of Tobruk more quickly while the garrison was exchanged.

[Reverend Joe]

Just skimmed over this interactive, and I have to say... I'm dissappointed. It started off with a real bang, and it looked like some crazy stuff was gonna happen (i.e. bringing Fascism to Greece, seizing Gibraltar, taking Iraq and Syria without a fight...) but as it progressed, everyone kinda got closeminded. Nothing really interesting happened. I'm sorry, but the mundanity really got to me.

I have an odd idea for an AAR, however, and this one would not only require some real intellect and imagination, but it would force some real hindsightless decisions. Here is a very quick sketch of the idea:

In 1933, the Spartakist Bolsheviks sweep into power, with the decades-long clandestine support of Russian premier Leonid Trotski (could easily be someone else... point is, Stalin was eliminated early on at Lenin's behest, and someone with Trotski's "World Revolution" dreams came to power) and the open support of the people as a whole. Germany now finds herself facing down the Fascist nations France, Britain and Italy, who are kept at bay only by the threat of the Russian Steamroller crashing down on their heads. The first section of the AAR (if you want to) will require the main character to rapidly rebuild and rearm Germany, now doubly devastated by the destruction of the Heer and Wermacht (via mass mutinies and general uprising), as well as quickly coordinate a strategy to defeat the Fascist Bloc, ... before the Fascists decide to strike. It could be quite interesting, if pulled off properly.

The second part, of course, would be the resulting struggle across Europe.

This would require an assload of research and speculation, so... just throwing that one out there.

[Franconicus]

Reverend Gonzo, I agree with most of what you say. A pity, that you did not jump on the train, while it was running.

Good luck for your interactive plans. Sounds very promising. You could also reduce the topic to a Germany Revolution of 1919 topic.

DA:
Franc: For the next interactive, I have a few suggestions, and I would be honored if you made one of my suggestions into an Interactive.

The Israeli/Arab Wars: Anything through 1948-Present
Byzantium: Komenan restoration period.
Reconquista Interactive (roughly 1100 A.D)
Crusades Interactive
Teutonic Knights Interactive
Late Roman Empire Interactive
WWII Pacific Interactive
Thank you for your proposals. I already have one in mind, but don't know how I could do it all by myself. My skills are limited (as you have seen) and my time is too.

[King Kurt]

Franc

I have been thinking a bit about our lack of alternative strategies and wondered if there was an inevitability about it. As I made clear on many occasions, I did not think the Gib option was a starter - history tells us that Spain was never going to openly side with the Germans and, strategicaly what did it deliver? It's main use was as a supply base for Malta so our airbourne operation solved that.
I suppose our main - only - strategic aim was capture of the Middle east with its oil. The problem - how to get there. The British navy rules the Med, with the exception of the middle where our airforces could counter it - so no significant landings of troops. That leaves us with a land only option. There are only 2 routes really - from Italian controled North Africa via Palestine or via Turkey.
As we choose the North Africa route, let's look at Turkey. The first obvious thing is that we need to get the border first. That means fighting through the Balkans - Bulgaria is the obvious choice as it is the line of least resistance. However, that removes all elements of surprise and that swiftness component so important to Blitzkrieg. With the Germans so obviously threatening Turkey, Russia would be pulled in somehow - as well as the Allies, so diplomatically we would have had to negociate something with the Russians for this to happen. So to get to a starting position is going to be difficult.
However, let's assume you can get that position, what happens if the germans attack from Bulgaria? As Turkey in the Cold War IA I have been looking at Turkey's borders in some detail and I have to say that it is well placed to defend itself. The Turkish/ Bulgaria border is quite mountainous, making for easy defence - and the front is served by a single railway line, making it difficult to supply and easy to disrupt. Even if you do break through - and Turkey has always had a large army, if not well equiped - you then face the problem of the Bosphorous. The English would have been able to ship in troops to support Turkey, so the Germans would face the difficulty of getting over the straights in the face of the British forces, including the airforce and navy. Even if that is managed, a long struggle across Asia minor is required to get to the Middle East - with supply lines stretched across a difficult landscape with a hostile population. So all in all, I don't think that the Turkish route is an option - especialy as if the Italians had not been supported in North Africa then possibly Wavell's offensive in late 1940 might have thrown them out of North Africa altogether, allowing the English to concentrate all their forces in the Middle East and Asia Minor.
As I said in my earlier comment, the thing the IA has done is counter the supposition that if Rommel had broken through in North Africa he would have swept through the Middle east like a hot knife through butter. If the purpose of an IA is to look at alternatives, to debate what-ifs then Red Flood has succeeded superbly in its full examination of this supposition.

[Franconicus]

Are you saying that there was no way for the Germans to win war - even after the victory against France?:no:

Well, there is the option to go with Vichy. I think this would have been a very interesting one. Hard to say what really would have happened.

Regarding Gibraltar, I think one major advantage would have been that you could have send transports to the Med and increase the supply volume for Africa.

Regarding Turkey, I do not agree. The right time would have been after the fall of Greece. You had an army and a panzergruppe there anyway, the British were pinned down at Libya. You had conquered Greece to help the Italians, so theinvasion would have been a surprise. An the Luftwaffe could easily protect the shipping across the Bosporus.

The terrain of Turkey is not ideal for tank operation, but neither was Greece. You would not have to conquer the whole country, just the way along the coast. The Turkish army wasn't that big, the population of Turkey was much much smaller than the Germans. Germany would even have allies like Bulgaria and Italy that can secure the flanks. The British would hardly been able to send ground forces.

The risk for this invasion would have been Russia. I guess Stalin would have entered war.

After all my reflexions I assume that the only way to win the war would have been to offer Turkey to Russia as a compensation for the Balkan campaign. If Russia would have taken the bite, it would have been in a clear opposition to GB and the US. GB would have had o send troops to secure Iran / Iraq. Churchill would hardly accepted that the Russians take control of the entrance of the Black Sea.

Your resume is right. How could the Germans been able to supply a Panzergruppe in the Middle East, if the only supply chain would be along North Africa? As long as the Brits seal Gibraltar and sink enough ships the Germans cannot win. Therefore they had to either open a new lane via Turkey or get more ships to the ocean.

[Reverend Joe]

One other point: Francisco Franco was actually desperate to enter the war; it was Hitler who did not want him getting involved, after he was informed of the incredible incompetence of Franco's troops. In fact, their one and only face-to-face meeting consisted entirely of Hitler trying to explain why Spain's entry into the war would be a disaster, and Franco basically ignoring him and attempting to talk strategy; Hitler finally gave up in frustration and declared that communication with Franco was impossible, and promptly left. Franco, however, managed to turn this into a PR coup by basically lying over and over about the meeting, saying that he had to battle against Hitler to keep Spain out of the war, with Hitler threatening to send fifty divisions to take over Spain. And that is the version that became more popular.

[Reverend Joe]

Oh, and no way in hell do I have the time or motivation to host an interactive, nor do I have the proper skills. I was throwing that out as a suggestion.

[Lord Winter]

I think that Germany and the Soviet Union were bound to go to war eventualy. Even if Barbossa wasn't launched Stalin had plans to invade in '45. I think the best chance of a Germen victory in WWII would be Germany tying up the Balkens sooner thus elelimenating the need to postpone Barrbosa. At that stage the Germens could have used the extra time before winter to conquer Moscow, which would proably result in the colasp of the soviet government.


Also Frank great interactive :2thumbsup:

[Franconicus]

:bow: Thanx!
By the way, I never believed the idea that Germany would have won, ig it had conquered Moscow. I think that is another legend.