A start on the .MESH file format

[Roman_Man#3]

I take my hat off to you guys. Very good job.

Hey, so now to edit models in M2TW all you need is the free Milkshape 3d? AWESOME!!!!

RM3

ps. Don't tell anyone at Milkshape about all the modders who will be rushing there to get it, because they might charge money. Hehe. that would bite.

pps. Very good job.

[mirage41]

GrumpyOldMan. I just wanted to say that you are amazing. I don't understand anything you guys are doing but just keep doing it!

[KnightErrant]

Thanks for the help on windowed=1. Only got to three units
all lods. Tried out the moving unit upwards and changing bounding
sphere on longbowmen in en_peasant_padded directory.

If spiders bother you the following looks like Shelob the last child
of the Ungoliant had a fling with a drunken archer on leave. You were
warned:

https://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3259/spiderstartod0.th.jpg (https://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spiderstartod0.jpg)

Like alpaca and GrumpyOldMan said, the animation keeps the legs glued
to the ground so they don't hover, just get stretched out. Tried them
against dismounted feudal knights which should be a slaughter. Didn't
let them shoot or skirmish, just stand and take it. Here's the battle:

https://img259.imageshack.us/img259/945/spiderfightag8.th.jpg (https://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spiderfightag8.jpg)

The captain always gets killed on contact because he doesn't share the
mod. The spider-archers last pretty long against the knights but aren't
impervious, they eventually get chopped to pieces and rout. Null experiment
on the bounding sphere but the distorted bodies definately interfere with
the hit mechanism. Fun but creepy at the same time.

Second unit: ee_peasant_leather dir, cossack_cavalry_lod0, 1, 2

https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/589/cossackcavalryts9.th.jpg (https://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cossackcavalryts9.jpg)

The change is to the caps that are like long toboggans, don't know if
that term translates well, the long caps that are crooked like a wizards hat
on some of the men.

Third unit: es_greek_greek_heavy dir, byzantine_lancers_lod0, 1, 2, 3

https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8916/byzantinelancersby8.th.jpg (https://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=byzantinelancersby8.jpg)

Change is the usual broken lances.


The mods were done in this sequence: All the lods were converted to
.ms3d in one go to test the error GOM reported when doing this. Then
each .ms3d imported into Milkshape, and modded and saved. All three
or four lods were then reconverted back to .mesh in one go as well.
Then tested in-game. No problems with the procedure that I can tell. :2thumbsup:

Edit: Hey! Milkshape is sharemare not freeware. Give Mete his 25$, its more than worth
the price for what he's done....

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All (especially Guines pigs and lab rats)

I've found a bug in my merge ms3d function and while I start taking it apart (hopefully won't take long) to find the error, I've done up some new figures for people to try - bear in mind that these are experimental and may not work at all. I've had a look through the files and they look all right, but then again that's what lab rats are for, isn't it :laugh4: :laugh4:

The files are all LOD levels for dismounted Hospitallers at http://www.megaupload.com/?d=77IZS8CK around 400k zipped and dismounted Quakupulu at http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FT5PA19Q around 170k zipped. The zips have only got the mesh files ie there are no entries there to get them in the game, but people seemed interested in these particular files. I might go and read up on how to get new figures into the game, been obsessed with other stuff up to now :laugh4: :laugh4:

Edit:- Forgot to mention info you'll need to get them in, the Hospitallers are armed with primary weapon sword only and the Quakupulu are the same with scimitars. If you get them going I'd like to see some screenies.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi MA


I take my hat off to you guys. Very good job.

Hey, so now to edit models in M2TW all you need is the free Milkshape 3d? AWESOME!!!!

RM3

ps. Don't tell anyone at Milkshape about all the modders who will be rushing there to get it, because they might charge money. Hehe. that would bite.

pps. Very good job.

Unfortunately Milkshape's not free but it is the next best thing, the last time I looked it was $25US or 25Euros, it's shareware for the first 30days. When you consider that the owner, programmer and chief bottle washer at Milkshape has been active in supporting, improving and expanding the software for a fair time, it's a very reasonable price, especially compared to Max's price. If we can get a large block of owners together then we can reasonably ask Mete (the owner) to make changes to accomodate M2TW's format, like float data storage for vertex weights so we don't have to coarsen it down to two decimal figures, or automatic calculation of normals, tangents, binormals and storage within the format, etc. The vertex weight changes in Milkshape was largely driven by Sims and Half Life 2 modders.

So when the conversion tools become available, don't go Googling for serialz and crackz, buy the software :whip: . Think I'll get off my soapbox now :laugh4:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Dago]

Since when Milkshape is free??? Did i miss something?

[alpaca]

Hi MA



Unfortunately Milkshape's not free but it is the next best thing, the last time I looked it was $25US or 25Euros, it's shareware for the first 30days. When you consider that the owner, programmer and chief bottle washer at Milkshape has been active in supporting, improving and expanding the software for a fair time, it's a very reasonable price, especially compared to Max's price. If we can get a large block of owners together then we can reasonably ask Mete (the owner) to make changes to accomodate M2TW's format, like float data storage for vertex weights so we don't have to coarsen it down to two decimal figures, or automatic calculation of normals, tangents, binormals and storage within the format, etc. The vertex weight changes in Milkshape was largely driven by Sims and Half Life 2 modders.

So when the conversion tools become available, don't go Googling for serialz and crackz, buy the software :whip: . Think I'll get off my soapbox now :laugh4:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan
Heh I'll need to ask him if I can get a free version for research purposes since I don't actually plan to do any much modelling :P

@KE: lol those spider archers are definitely a "Cool Thing(TM)"... alas only 4 legs

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM,

I downloaded Hospitallers and Quakupulu, and I will give them a try today. Looks like we are almost there.

Now I have to have figure out how to post screenies... I need to go back and read that post again...:laugh4:

The MilkShape I had was a trial, didn't know that it wasn't free... I will have to take care of that!!

Let's see,

3dsMax out of the box: $4000

3dsMax student edition... $600 (I am not a student...)

Milkshape 3D... $25...

Mete's philanthropic effort at offering such a versatile 3D model modification program and GOM's success at producing converters/exporters to mod M2TW models...

PRICELESS.... :yes:

AT

[AlphaDelta1]

Thank you kind sir. This model is just what the doctor ordered.

https://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j278/donlogan/dismounted_quapukulu.jpg

I would add your dismounted hospitaller and make some screenshots but I cant download it from the megaupload site without installing some toolbar. A friend downloaded and sent me the dismounted quapukulu.

Cheers

[Roman_Man#3]

I am foolish. I thought it was free. silly me.:laugh4:


RM3

[Myrddraal]

Send me or any moderator a PM when you have a release to make, and it's got all the coverage we can muster :bow:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

I've also uploaded the files to http://rapidshare.com/files/22802607/Dismounted_Quapukulu.zip.html and http://rapidshare.com/files/22802608/dismounted_hospitallers.zip.html .

Thanks for the testing AD1, the screen shot looks good. Did you let them get into battle? How did the bounding sphere behave (I took the values off a dismounted knight), was combat ok? How did you get around the issue of no sprite generator?

Thanks again AD1, maybe you can post the entries required to get the figure in game, that would let other people test them out quickly.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[SigniferOne]

Grumpy, wish I had the time to test, but have you tried creating an abnormally large bounding sphere, or an extremely tiny one, and then seeing how unit behavior changes? My initial thoughts are that the bounding sphere "briefly" tells other units where this guy is. Otherwise if it were too small, the units would move "into" the soldier to try to hack at him, and if it's too large they'll probably stay too far away and never be able to land a hit at him through more detailed mesh collision detection.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi S1


Grumpy, wish I had the time to test, but have you tried creating an abnormally large bounding sphere, or an extremely tiny one, and then seeing how unit behavior changes? My initial thoughts are that the bounding sphere "briefly" tells other units where this guy is. Otherwise if it were too small, the units would move "into" the soldier to try to hack at him, and if it's too large they'll probably stay too far away and never be able to land a hit at him through more detailed mesh collision detection.

The bounding sphere does have a bearing on combat but it's more than just a simple collision sphere. The sphere values for a dismounted knight (sword) are:-

-0.00506956
0.305949
0.197468
1.33967
/

for a foot spearman:-

0.484048
0.390661
0.103769
1.71158
/

and for a lance armed mounted knight

0.00446364
0.43254
0.793391
1.68705
/

As we build up a bigger database of what happens with different values we can understand it better.

I'm just dusting off some old code I had to extract CAS files to Milkshape and before I start to rejig it for the new Milkshape file format and the M2TW skeleton, I thought I'd see how hard it would be to extract bits to add on to M2TW base figures. Here's a pic of starting to extract a Roman helmet :- https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/roman_work.jpg . After I get the initial converters bedded down, I'll try to rework the code to extract CAS to Milkshape with dummy weights and correct bone indices for M2TW.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[AlphaDelta1]

GoM,


Did you let them get into battle?

Yes I've sent them against a few opponents.


How did the bounding sphere behave (I took the values off a dismounted knight), was combat ok?

I didnt notice any abnormalities. Combat seems ok so far. With fairly average heavy swordsmen stats they are killing twice as many spearmen as they are taking losses.


How did you get around the issue of no sprite generator?

You can simply tell the game to use another units sprites that have the same colour/armour. Infact not all vanilla units have unique sprites.

Here is the data:

export_descr_unit.txt


type dismounted quapukulu
dictionary dismounted_quapukulu ; dismounted quapukulu
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier dismounted_quapukulu, 48, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 8, 6, 4, metal
;stat_armour_ex 8, 9, 0, 0, 6, 4, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 1, -6, -1
stat_mental 11, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1100, 250, 130, 100, 1100, 4, 270
armour_ug_levels 4
armour_ug_models dismounted_quapukulu
ownership turks
era 2 turks
;unit_info 13, 0, 18


battle_models.modelsdb


20 dismounted_quapukulu
1 4
74 unit_models/_Units/ME_Mail_Plate_Hvy_Mplate/dismounted_quapukulu_lod0.mesh 121
74 unit_models/_Units/ME_Mail_Plate_Hvy_Mplate/dismounted_quapukulu_lod1.mesh 900
74 unit_models/_Units/ME_Mail_Plate_Hvy_Mplate/dismounted_quapukulu_lod2.mesh 2500
74 unit_models/_Units/ME_Mail_Plate_Hvy_Mplate/dismounted_quapukulu_lod3.mesh 6400
1
5 turks
91 unit_models/_Units/ME_Mail_Plate_Hvy_Mplate/textures/ME_Mail_Plate_Hvy_Mplate_turks.texture
92 unit_models/_Units/ME_Mail_Plate_Hvy_Mplate/textures/ME_Mail_Plate_Hvy_Mplate_normal.texture
59 unit_sprites/turks_Dismounted_Sipahi_Lancers_ug2_sprite.spr
1
5 turks
60 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final ME Heavy_turks_diff.texture
60 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final ME Heavy_turks_norm.texture 0
1
4 None
14 MTW2_Swordsman 0
2
18 MTW2_Sword_Primary
14 fs_test_shield 0
16 -0.090000004 0 0 -0.34999999 0.80000001 0.60000002

Cheers

[alpaca]

1. That bounding sphere looks like signifying the maximum distance the unit can reach (if it's x,y,z,radius), so I'd still say it fits the assumption that as soon as another unit enters the bounding sphere, a more detailed collision detection kicks in. Although it depends on the question of which point the coordinates relate to (center of mass)?

2. You can probably still disable sprites altogether by removing the sprites lines altogether

By the way, did anybody figure out by now what these floats in the modelsdb mean (16 -0.090000004 0 0 -0.34999999 0.80000001 0.60000002)?

[KnightErrant]

You guys had the answer months ago. Recheck
this thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=70883

Look at the entries in the border_horse.xml file that
Caliban provided. These numbers are offsetX, Y, Z and
WorldOffset X, Y, Z, whatever that means.

Edit: Not including the 16, the six numbers AFTER the 16
are the offsets.

[SigniferOne]

Yes those are values for the torch, check Caliban's XML files.

If bounding sphere instead indicates how far a unit can reach, this would be Very Cool, because you can set it to be large for spear units, and hopefully get spears from the second row helping out the front row. Needless to say, every classical modder's dream, right there.

[Lusted]

That info about the torches will be useful for Darth as he's been claiming those numbers do something else.

[KnightErrant]

Quick check of the modeldb file, the units which don't use those
float values are all the mounts, elephant_crew, elephant_artillery_crew,
elephant_rockett_crew, (yes, I know rocket is spelled with 1 t)
and all the captain, general, and king models. These are terminated
by variations on 0 0 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0 for mounts and 0 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0
for the others.

[alpaca]

Yes those are values for the torch, check Caliban's XML files.

If bounding sphere instead indicates how far a unit can reach, this would be Very Cool, because you can set it to be large for spear units, and hopefully get spears from the second row helping out the front row. Needless to say, every classical modder's dream, right there.
That's probably not how it'd work. You'd need to make the spear longer, too.

@KE: Good that you looked into that, I didn't really meddle with models yet so I thought I'd hint it to you guys :2thumbsup:
Any ideas about the 16?

Edit: Nevermind, the 16 is probably the bone index for the lhand

Edit2: Hmm interesting, the distance in the XML file seems to be the square root of the entry in modelsdb

[KnightErrant]

Yeah, 16 is index of the bone_lhand in the bone strings section of
the mesh file. Good spot on the squares of the distance values
for the mesh section of the modeldb.

[KnightErrant]

This part


<BoneMap>unit_models\BoneMaps\soldier_bone_map_new.xml</BoneMap>

must reference a file that looks something like


bone_pelvis , none
bone_rthigh , bone_pelvis
bone_rlowerleg , bone_rthigh
bone_rfoot , bone_rlowerleg
bone_abs , bone_pelvis
bone_torso , bone_abs
bone_head , bone_torso
bone_jaw , bone_head
bone_eyebrow , bone_head
bone_rclavical , bone_torso
bone_rupperarm , bone_rclavical
bone_relbow , bone_rupperarm
bone_rhand , bone_relbow
bone_lclavical , bone_torso
bone_lupperarm , bone_lclavical
bone_lelbow , bone_lupperarm
bone_lhand , bone_lelbow
bone_lthigh , bone_pelvis
bone_llowerleg , bone_lthigh
bone_lfoot , bone_llowerleg
bone_weapon_weapon01 , bone_rhand
bone_weapon , bone_rhand
bone_weapon02 , bone_rhand
bone_weapon03 , bone_rhand
bone_shield01 , bone_lhand
bone_shield , bone_lhand

for standard units, first column is child, second column parent.

Must have separate files for horses, camels, elephants,
and artillery. My external file for doing elephants looks
like


bone_E_platform , none
bone_E_back , bone_E_platform
bone_E_right back thigh , bone_E_back
bone_E_right back lower leg , bone_E_right back thigh
bone_E_right back foot , bone_E_right back lower leg
bone_E_left back thigh , bone_E_back
bone_E_left back lower leg , bone_E_left back thigh
bone_E_left back foot , bone_E_left back lower leg
bone_E_head , bone_E_back
bone_E_trunk 1 , bone_E_head
bone_E_trunk 2 , bone_E_trunk 1
bone_E_trunk 3 , bone_E_trunk 2
bone_E_trunk 4 , bone_E_trunk 3
bone_E_right ear main , bone_E_head
bone_E_right ear tip , bone_E_right ear main
bone_E_left ear main , bone_E_head
bone_E_left ear tip , bone_E_left ear main
bone_E_right front thigh , bone_back
bone_E_right front lower leg , bone_right front thigh
bone_E_right front foot , bone_right front lower leg
bone_E_left front thigh , bone_back
bone_E_left front lower leg , bone_left front thigh
bone_E_left front foot , bone_left front lower leg

Haven't had time to get the trebuchet debugged so I haven't pulled
out anymore skeletons than horses, camels, and elephants.

[zxiang1983]

@GOM

Happy to test it again and again:laugh4: Just one question, should the dismounted quapukulu actually be named dismounted late general's bodyguard? I think they two are more similar:dizzy2:

https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/3647/0004oo1.th.jpg (https://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0004oo1.jpg)

[Arron Swan]

Where can I get the importer? And How do you get the the Quakupulu to work?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Some of you may have noticed that in my haste to get the zips out I actually zipped the ms3d files for dismounted hospitaller :embarassed: :embarassed: . I've put up a new zip with the mesh figures at http://rapidshare.com/files/22961223/MESH_dismounted_knights_hospitaller.zip.html

For those that downloaded the first zip, at least you can say you've seen what the converted mesh files look like as Milkshape files :laugh4: :laugh4: .

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi all

@Zxiang (The Hospitaller meshes should be in your mailbox)


@GOM

Happy to test it again and again:laugh4: Just one question, should the dismounted quapukulu actually be named dismounted late general's bodyguard? I think they two are more similar:dizzy2:


I was working off the picture AD1 posted, the figure shown used one of the variations of quakupulu_ug1 so that's what I used.

@All - I've been busy testing trying to find a bug I found only once and haven't been able to recreate, so I've been using it to make more figures while I wait for the bug to resurface. I've used the basic figure of the main Quakupulu this time rather than the ug1 variant and taken out the lance and maces and given him a spear and scimitars. The zip (I just went and checked for the third time :embarassed: :embarassed: and it does contain meshes this time) is at http://rapidshare.com/files/22965997/dismounted_quakupulu_spear.zip.html.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[zxiang1983]

The hospitaller is really, really awesome and works perfect in game!! Grumpyoldman you are definitely a genius!
Let's see the first living dismounted knights hospitaller in M2TW:

https://img148.imageshack.us/img148/89/0005yt9.th.jpg (https://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0005yt9.jpg)
https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5440/0006ut7.th.jpg (https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0006ut7.jpg)
https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5517/0007mf3.th.jpg (https://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0007mf3.jpg)

Edit: I forgot to paste the codes:

in battle_models.modeldb:

30 dismounted_knights_hospitaller
1 4
74 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/dismounted_knights_hospitaller_lod0.mesh 121
74 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/dismounted_knights_hospitaller_lod1.mesh 900
74 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/dismounted_knights_hospitaller_lod2.mesh 2500
74 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/dismounted_knights_hospitaller_lod3.mesh 6400
10
7 england
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
51 unit_sprites/england_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
8 scotland
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
52 unit_sprites/scotland_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
6 france
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
50 unit_sprites/france_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
7 denmark
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
51 unit_sprites/denmark_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
5 milan
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
49 unit_sprites/milan_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
6 venice
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
50 unit_sprites/venice_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
12 papal_states
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
56 unit_sprites/papal_states_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
6 sicily
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
50 unit_sprites/sicily_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
6 poland
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
50 unit_sprites/poland_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
7 hungary
77 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_hospitaller.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
51 unit_sprites/hungary_Knights_Hospitaller_sprite.spr
10
7 england
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_england_diff.texture
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_england_norm.texture 0
8 scotland
69 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_scotland_diff.texture
69 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_scotland_norm.texture 0
6 france
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_france_diff.texture
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_france_norm.texture 0
7 denmark
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_denmark_diff.texture
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_denmark_norm.texture 0
5 milan
66 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_milan_diff.texture
66 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_milan_norm.texture 0
6 venice
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_venice_diff.texture
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_venice_norm.texture 0
12 papal_states
73 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_papal_states_diff.texture
73 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_papal_states_norm.texture 0
6 sicily
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_sicily_diff.texture
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_sicily_norm.texture 0
6 poland
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_poland_diff.texture
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_poland_norm.texture 0
7 hungary
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_hungary_diff.texture
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_hungary_norm.texture 0
1
4 None
14 MTW2_Swordsman 0
2
18 MTW2_Sword_Primary
14 fs_test_shield 0
16 -0.090000004 0 0 -0.34999999 0.80000001 0.60000002

in EDU:

type dismounted knights hospitaller
dictionary dismounted_knights_hospitaller ; dismounted knights hospitaller
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier dismounted_knights_hospitaller, 48, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 13, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 7, 8, 6, metal
;stat_armour_ex 7, 8, 0, 0, 8, 6, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 570, 225, 90, 70, 570, 4, 140
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models dismounted_knights_hospitaller
ownership england, scotland, france, denmark, milan, venice, papal_states, sicily, poland, hungary
;unit_info 13, 0, 21

[KnightErrant]

@GOM
Don't know if this is related, but I've updated my Python
script to include the 4 -> 2 int change for higher lods after
the vertex vectors. Game still crashed after loading until
I realized I had "characterlod0" hard-coded in my Python script.
Changed this to characterlod# where # followed the input lod number
of the file. Still crashed. Finally looked at my debugging output and
realized that lod3 still wants to be called characterlod2, at least
for armored_sergeants. Are you seeing this in your code
and is it related to your transient error?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi KE


@GOM
Don't know if this is related, but I've updated my Python
script to include the 4 -> 2 int change for higher lods after
the vertex vectors. Game still crashed after loading until
I realized I had "characterlod0" hard-coded in my Python script.
Changed this to characterlod# where # followed the input lod number
of the file. Still crashed. Finally looked at my debugging output and
realized that lod3 still wants to be called characterlod2, at least
for armored_sergeants. Are you seeing this in your code
and is it related to your transient error?

Sorry this is something that I should have let you know about, I was still crashing until I modified a lod2 to lod3 (I thought that the lod3 was the problem) and forgot to change the characterlod2 and voila, everything ran. Apologies again, I was very remiss in not letting you know. So yes, lod3 is listed as characterlod2 in the mesh file. I'm not sure why these entries are there, but if we know where they go, and place them in new files and it works.......ignorance is bliss!

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[methoz]

The hospitaller is really, really awesome and works perfect in game!! Grumpyoldman you are definitely a genius!
Let's see the first living dismounted knights hospitaller in M2TW:

https://img148.imageshack.us/img148/89/0005yt9.th.jpg (https://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0005yt9.jpg)
https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5440/0006ut7.th.jpg (https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0006ut7.jpg)
https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5517/0007mf3.th.jpg (https://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0007mf3.jpg)

Edit: I forgot to paste the codes:

in battle_models.modeldb:


Hi, i add this unit to my game (mod) and game just crash :anxious: :bigcry:

[zxiang1983]

@GOM
With the power of the convert tool(though it's alpha version) I'm able to create a real dismounted knight templar. I'm so happy~~Thank you!
https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3435/0011pp7.th.jpg (https://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0011pp7.jpg)https://img256.imageshack.us/img256/2804/0012yx9.th.jpg (https://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0012yx9.jpg)

BTW, in case anyone likes them, you can download these mesh file at:
http://files.filefront.com//;7046710;;/
The entries:
in battle_models.modeldb:

26 dismounted_knights_templar
1 4
70 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/dismounted_knights_templar_lod0.mesh 121
70 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/dismounted_knights_templar_lod1.mesh 900
70 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/dismounted_knights_templar_lod2.mesh 2500
70 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/dismounted_knights_templar_lod3.mesh 6400
10
7 england
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
47 unit_sprites/england_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
8 scotland
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
48 unit_sprites/scotland_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
6 france
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
46 unit_sprites/france_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
7 denmark
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
47 unit_sprites/denmark_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
5 milan
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
45 unit_sprites/milan_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
6 venice
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
46 unit_sprites/venice_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
12 papal_states
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
52 unit_sprites/papal_states_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
6 sicily
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
46 unit_sprites/sicily_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
6 poland
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
46 unit_sprites/poland_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
7 hungary
73 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_templar.texture
81 unit_models/_Units/EN_Lmail_Hmail/textures/EN_Lmail_Hmail_crusader_normal.texture
47 unit_sprites/hungary_Knights_Templar_sprite.spr
10
7 england
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_england_diff.texture
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_england_norm.texture 0
8 scotland
69 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_scotland_diff.texture
69 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_scotland_norm.texture 0
6 france
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_france_diff.texture
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_france_norm.texture 0
7 denmark
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_denmark_diff.texture
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_denmark_norm.texture 0
5 milan
66 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_milan_diff.texture
66 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_milan_norm.texture 0
6 venice
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_venice_diff.texture
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_venice_norm.texture 0
12 papal_states
73 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_papal_states_diff.texture
73 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_papal_states_norm.texture 0
6 sicily
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_sicily_diff.texture
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_sicily_norm.texture 0
6 poland
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_poland_diff.texture
67 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_poland_norm.texture 0
7 hungary
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_hungary_diff.texture
68 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Heater Special_hungary_norm.texture 0
1
4 None
14 MTW2_Swordsman 0
2
18 MTW2_Sword_Primary
14 fs_test_shield 0
16 -0.090000004 0 0 -0.34999999 0.80000001 0.60000002

In EDU:

type dismounted knights templar
dictionary dismounted_knights_templar ; dismounted knights templar
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier dismounted_knights_templar, 48, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 13, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 7, 8, 6, metal
;stat_armour_ex 7, 8, 0, 0, 8, 6, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 570, 225, 90, 70, 570, 4, 140
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models dismounted_knights_templar
ownership england, scotland, france, denmark, milan, venice, papal_states, sicily, poland, hungary
;unit_info 13, 0, 21


@Methoz
I experienced crash,too. My suggestion is do NOT add those codes at the end of modeldb or EDU file. Just INSERT them in it, eg. insert these codes before the unit of dismounted feudal knight in battle_models.modeldb and EDU. Hope this help


Edit: Excuse my excitement:sweatdrop: A highland nobles arquebusiers (just for fun)
https://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7361/0020so5.th.jpg (https://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0020so5.jpg)https://img129.imageshack.us/img129/2669/0022wj9.th.jpg (https://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0022wj9.jpg)

[Lusted]

If you add in new units to battle_models.modelsdb you need to change this line at the top:

22 serialization::archive 3 0 0 0 0 705 0 0

This is taken from my modded file, i believe that number is at 702 by default. You need to increase that number every time you add in a new entry.

[KnightErrant]

The vanilla count for units in the battle_models.modeldb is 701.
So increase the unit count number or add your units into the
middle. (Just kidding, increase the unit count is the right thing
to do.)

[methoz]

thanks for help..i have quest. i make skin for CRUSADERS can i make some dismounted Crusaders ?? i have file in .texture ..

[lionskin]

has the tool been released yet? I would really like to try it out.

Great work guys. You are all Legends.

[zxiang1983]

thanks for help..i have quest. i make skin for CRUSADERS can i make some dismounted Crusaders ?? i have file in .texture ..


Which unit do you mean? The Dismounted Crusader Knights? I think the vanilla game already has them:yes: You just need to let factions other than slaves use them in EDU and of coz add something in the .modeldb file.

[mirage41]

Edit: Excuse my excitement:sweatdrop: A highland nobles arquebusiers (just for fun)
https://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7361/0020so5.th.jpg (https://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0020so5.jpg)https://img129.imageshack.us/img129/2669/0022wj9.th.jpg (https://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0022wj9.jpg)


Wow! Cool.

So this mesh editor also means we can give any model any type of the existing animations?

[zxiang1983]

Wow! Cool.

So this mesh editor also means we can give any model any type of the existing animations?

Actually, the animation is appointed in battle_models.modeldb. This tool make us able to let any unit use any type of weapon, etc.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

I've added two extra bodies to the dismounted boyars sons to use the extra texture variations.

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/variedboyarssons.jpg

The mesh files are at http://rapidshare.com/files/23127337/dismounted_boyars_sons.zip.html if anybody wants to use them. No entries are required because they just slot in over the originals. Remember to put your vanilla meshes somewhere safe before you play with these.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[AlphaDelta1]

Zxiang1983 those look great! Where did you download the converter? How did I miss the release, damn!

Cheers

[Suraknar]

~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

Cheers guys Excelent Progress! You trully got it! :)

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1


Zxiang1983 those look great! Where did you download the converter? How did I miss the release, damn!

Cheers

You should really check your PMs, I sent you details for alpha testing.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Arron Swan]

Where do you find the battle_models.modelsdb?

[KnightErrant]

@Arron Swan
Should be in your data\unit_models directory.
The vanilla version doesn't have line breaks
in it so it's hard to read. A formatted vanilla
version is available here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1180

[Arron Swan]

I tried adding the Dismounted Quapukulu, but it's not working.

[KnightErrant]

You're posting a modding question in a research wiki thread.
A more appropriate forum would be to repost in modding questions.
Please include more information about the nature of your problem,
do you get a black screen on loading?, a splash screen and then
a CTD? Post info on your modeldb entry as well as EDU entries so
people can have a better chance of helping you. Sorry, best help
I can give you at present.

[AlphaDelta1]

I downloaded the editor and am having some trouble. I've been trying to change the dismounted druzhina to use a sword and heater instead of an axe and round shield.

I converted both these meshes to ms3d.

dismounted_feudal_knights_lod0.mesh
dismounted_druchima_lod0.mesh

Opened the feudal knight in ms3d, hid all the shield and sword meshes in the groups tab. Clicked select vertex (unchecked hide backfaces), dragged a box over the model and deleted. Un-hid all. Saved the ms3d file.

Opened the druchima is ms3d. Hid all the NON axe and NON shield meshes, clicked select vertex (unchecked hide backfaces), dragged a box over the remaining model (axe and shield) and deleted. Un-hid all.

Clicked file > merge > dismounted_feudal_knights_lod0.ms3d.

Saved the ms3d file. Converted it with the converter to a .mesh and placed it into the system.


This is what I see in-game.

https://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j278/donlogan/merging_problem.jpg

Any :help: would be appreciated.

Cheers

[zxiang1983]

Aha~ You've met the same problem as I did.

It's very easy to solve:) Just switch the order when your merging. I mean if you want to use A's body with B's weapon, select A first and then merge with B. In your case, select dismounted druzhina's body first and then merge with feudal knight's sword.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi

@AlphaDelta1, Zxiang

The main problem is that you used the native Milkshape merge function, he said and then quoting from a copy of the Mesh2Ms3d.doc that went out with converters, he also said:-


3.0 Using the Merge Ms3d function

I wrote a Merge Ms3d function as well because the native Milkshape function is bugged after the 1.8 release and it wasn't working properly for M2TW purposes in earlier versions anyway.


Use the Merge MS3D function in the Converter software, DON'T USE THE NATIVE MILKSHAPE MERGE FUNCTION!!! The Milkshape File/Merge adds a second skeleton and plays havoc with the vertex assignments and weights, probably why your figure looks like that. Open the preconverted figure in Milkshape and see.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[AlphaDelta1]

Thank GoM, I must of skipped that step and moved to the end of the readme file.

This software is truely superb, you even wrote a renderer, incredible.

I'm going to try and fix this model, I'll report back soon.

EDIT: One small thing that could be added; When you click proceed after selecting the second file to merge, it would be good to have the option to export as mesh, aswell as save as ms3d. This would help to remove a step.

Cheers

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1


Thank GoM, I must of skipped that step and moved to the end of the readme file.

This software is truely superb, you even wrote a renderer, incredible.

I'm going to try and fix this model, I'll report back soon.

EDIT: One small thing that could be added; When you click proceed after selecting the second file to merge, it would be good to have the option to export as mesh, aswell as save as ms3d. This would help to remove a step.

Cheers

No problems, The reason the merge goes back to ms3d is that there will probably always be some editing of the bounding sphere and/or group class/name info. Without a lot more programming, this wouldn't be possible in the software but it's easily done in Milkshape.

Cheers

Logging out for the night.

GrumpyOldMan

[AlphaDelta1]

Ahh I see. Well looks like it's working nicely now.

https://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j278/donlogan/dismounted_eristavi.jpg

Are there any hard rules regarding attachments? I.e Does there need to be a minimum number of primary weapon groups, or shield groups? I had some trouble when I tried to delete all but one of the weapons to reduce the re-mapping work. When I did this, in-game, they werent holding the sword, and some of the shield bosses (central metal hemisphere) were skewed.

Thanks again, I'll be testing this software heavily over the next few weeks.

Cheers

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM and KE

An update from a complete modelling newb...

I have the Converter up and running and have been able to bring in the tercio pike and look at in MilkShape... I have not had any time ot sart changing things yet.

I am finally now reading the MilkShape tutorial and hopefully will be able to pose intelligent questions soon. I will definitely be working on this this weekend.

Thanks again,

AT

[Shigawire]

Well. I understand about 5% of this stuff. Are you using Assembler AND working with figuring out a matrix? Absolutely stunningly brilliant work gentlemen! When (no if) GrumpyOldMan and his Round Table comes up with a solution, with the aid of the gods at CA, they will surely win the Vercingetorix prize next time around! :2thumbsup: Or better yet, establish a prize called "GrumpyOldMan prize"

Keep at it gents. EB2 may be possible yet! :smash:

ps. I think I love you CA-liban.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM and KE

Ok, Hopefully these questions will be good for newbie would be modelers: (we may need to move posts like these to a more appropriate thread so others can read these...)

1. When I get into the MESH in the converter, I can see that the variants are all overlapped (superimposed) over each other.

Example:
The tercio_pikeman_ug01 has all three figures superimposed over itself, with the Morion, Cabasset and light Burgonet (helmets) superimposed. I believe that there are three models superimposed over one bone set?? right???

QUESTION: How do I seperate these superimposed models, assuming they are setup this way? I would like to use the helmets on other units... It could be the helmets are just superimposed and there is just one body...:help:

*******************************************************

I am only going to post one question at a time.

*******************************************************
For right now I am going back and reading over the MilkShape tutorial and experiment some more.

My first project is giving the dismounted Broken Lances the metal Buckler of the S&B men.:charge:

*******************************************************
I am also planning on writing a tutorial for newbies... I think this would be very beneficial to the community.:yes:

AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1


Ahh I see. Well looks like it's working nicely now.

Are there any hard rules regarding attachments? I.e Does there need to be a minimum number of primary weapon groups, or shield groups? I had some trouble when I tried to delete all but one of the weapons to reduce the re-mapping work. When I did this, in-game, they werent holding the sword, and some of the shield bosses (central metal hemisphere) were skewed.

Thanks again, I'll be testing this software heavily over the next few weeks.

Cheers

No there is no rule on minimums, if you have a look at the mailed knight it has only one primary weapon. Without seeing the ms3d figure, it's hard to tell, are you using the new version of the exe because the old one has a memory leak problem (I think) that sometimes caused strange results in Merge Ms3d. If there is a problem it will be in your lod0 figure because that sets up how all the other lods are displayed. Make sure you have valid class and names in the group comments and that you have been consistent through all lod levels. Try it again and if you have a similar problem, put the ms3d figure up somewhere, I'll download it and check it out.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


@GOM and KE

Ok, Hopefully these questions will be good for newbie would be modelers: (we may need to move posts like these to a more appropriate thread so others can read these...)

1. When I get into the MESH in the converter, I can see that the variants are all overlapped (superimposed) over each other.

Example:
The tercio_pikeman_ug01 has all three figures superimposed over itself, with the Morion, Cabasset and light Burgonet (helmets) superimposed. I believe that there are three models superimposed over one bone set?? right???

QUESTION: How do I seperate these superimposed models, assuming they are setup this way? I would like to use the helmets on other units... It could be the helmets are just superimposed and there is just one body...:help:


First off, the program you have is just a converter, you can see the mesh but you can't actually do any manipulation in it. Any changes have to be made in Milkshape.

For a first attempt at changing a figure choose two figures that share the same figure texture and attachmentset texture, this way you don't have to worry about remapping texture uv values (not that difficult but might be better as a separate 'show-me'. Convert both figures to ms3d, if you open the file in Milkshape and go to the Groups tab you can see all the component groups of the figure. First decide on what you want to separate from one figure to place on the other. Follow the instruction in the Mesh2ms3d.doc in 6.3. What you're doing here is isolating the groups you want to keep and discarding the rest. Save what you've isolated with a name that you will recognise later ie Sword and buckler shields lod0. Next open up the target figure and using the Tab/Groups/Delete button get rid of the groups you are going to replace. Save the file. Go back to Mesh2Ms3d, use the Merge Ms3d function merge the two saved files. Open up the new merged file in Milkshape check it (also make sure to check the Class/Name info in Tab/Groups/Comments and make sure that you have the right bounding sphere info in Tab/Model/Comments). If you're happy, go back to Mesh2Ms3d and convert the Ms3d file to Mesh. Make sure that you make changes consistent across all lod levels and it should be ok.

It all sounds a bit longwinded but it's not really very difficult. As you can see from Zxiang's efforts, you can put out a lot of material in a short time. As an added safety net Milkshape's undo feature works really well :2thumbsup:

Let me know how you go.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[AlphaDelta1]

Try it again and if you have a similar problem

It seems ok now, I must of made an error somewhere.

I am now having some minor trouble with smoothing. Is there anyway to increase the smoothing angle? On some converted models, in both M2TW and milkshapem there is a smoothing line down the center of the face.

Its not a big problem, just a little bit ugly. It would be very easy to fix in 3dsmax.

Cheers

[Balbor]

has anyone taken a .cas model and converted it to a .mesh file yet?

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM

OK, I am moving real slow here, so please forgive me.

I have isolated the metal buckler and I have isolated the dismounted broken lances ug01 without heater shield.

How do I get the metal buckler into the broken lances ms3d? I am sure its one of those duh!! questions...:laugh4:

AT

[methoz]

if i want to add "own unit - example - Forlorn hope - new "swabian hope" ... i copy all of forlorn and only rename forlorn to swabian add to modeldb and edu as extra lines? and its all?

[KnightErrant]

@methoz
That should do it, just make sure the names match
and your faction is added correctly to the modeldb
file. You won't have unit cards, that's an extra step
but you can find the details on that in several of the
tutorials on adding in new units.

[methoz]

yes, i know how to unit card etc..but dont know how to "make new" unit.. (my example - forlorn hope to bohemia (in my mod..) as swabian swordsmen ... i can only copy,paste and rename..in EDU and modeldb and EDB too ,if i say right

edit - "my own faction" replace other faction,i dont make new faction ...

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


@GOM

OK, I am moving real slow here, so please forgive me.

I have isolated the metal buckler and I have isolated the dismounted broken lances ug01 without heater shield.

How do I get the metal buckler into the broken lances ms3d? I am sure its one of those duh!! questions...:laugh4:

AT

This where you use the the Merge Ms3d function in the converter, don't use the Milkshape File/Merge, First open the dismounted broken lances and then the bucklers, save as a filename different from either of the two original files. Go back to Milkshape and you can open the merged file to see the results. If the figure and shields share the same figure and attachmentset textures then there's nothing more that needs to be done and you can go ahead and convert the ms3d to mesh, remember not to overwrite your vanilla meshes.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1


It seems ok now, I must of made an error somewhere.

I am now having some minor trouble with smoothing. Is there anyway to increase the smoothing angle? On some converted models, in both M2TW and milkshapem there is a smoothing line down the center of the face.

Its not a big problem, just a little bit ugly. It would be very easy to fix in 3dsmax.

Cheers

The smoothing line issue is because the m2tw mesh is preprocessed for plugging directly into the engine. The normals, tangents and binormals/bitangents we're using are calculated means, KE (especially) and I have gone through quite a few weighted mean algorithms but we haven't found one that improves on the plain old means to match the ones stored in the vanilla meshes. My guess is that the normals were calculated on a welded mesh (algorithm unknown), stored and then applied to an unwelded mesh during the preprocessing. I'm still playing with all the parts of the converters in the background, including normals, etc and if it becomes a big enough issue I can move it up the priority list.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

If you're looking at doing any major remapping of uv values you might look at LithUnwrap, a free program at http://files.seriouszone.com/download.php?fileid=198 This lets you do major remapping work. Milkshape has some remapping ability but not in the league of Lith. NOTE Lith is an old program and so does not save ms3d in the new format. DO NOT save the ms3d file after remapping, instead export a LithUnwrap LUV file which can be imported into Milkshape and applied to the model that way.

There are a number of other 3d and 2d programs that can import and export ms3d format. Please add if you come across any.

There is another freeware 3d modeller Misfit3d that imports ms3d and supports vertex weighting but at the moment still imports and exports in old ms3d format. I've let the programmer know that the ms3d format has changed and he is looking at it.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM and KE...

I got it to work!!!!!!!! :applause:

I have dismounted broken lances ug1 with a buckler shield...

Now I need to find the thread that tells me how to post pictures...:laugh4:

GOM, it works flawlessly, as far as I can tell... This is awesome, You have done a fine job!!!!!!!!!

I will edit with a screen hopefully soon.

AT

Edit:

https://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4251/dismtdbrknlncssmallgr0.jpg

I have edited the textures for the Iberian Buckler, so that is why they don't look vanilla... Nevertheless, once you figure the ins and outs, it is very user friendly. If I can do this then almost anybody can do it... that is what is so exciting about it!!!

[KnightErrant]

@AT
Excellent! Here's what zxiang1983 posted to help me do screenies


@KE, Let me do this easy job:)
1) I suggest this site to host your image:
https://imageshack.us/

2) The webpage is very user-friendly. Click "browse" button on the right and choose the image you want to upload and then click "host it!" at the bottom

3) After all is done you will get several address. Just copy the "Hotlink for forums" line and paste it in you post. Then others can see your image.

It works very fast.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM and KE,

Let's say I want to add a spear to a dismounted knight, in addition to the sword they already have, then I would add the spear in the model (after isolating it from another model) and in the modeldb, I would add the animation for the spear (along with making the accompanying string number changes, etc...) Figuring out texture assignments might be tricky...

I may look at changing the dismounted broken lances again and give them a heavy spear to be used somewhat like a pike (this would require me to take away the buckler and add in the pike animation instead...)

After that, if I am successful I am going to switch some helmets around...

Again, you guys have done great with this... I see good things ahead!!!:2thumbsup:

AT

[KnightErrant]

Ok, we're regressing a little bit here to think about AlphaDelta1's
observation re smoothing line on the face. As GOM pointed out
a few posts back, we compute the full tangent space basis for the
lod0 meshes (where the detail is). This is a purely geometrical/uv coordinates
calculation which MOSTLY agrees with what we see in CA's RGB cube
normalized values for the tangent basis. What we've seen for some examples,
feudal knights in particular, is that there are a few isolated discrepancies
for the vertex normals, but there are runs of zero vectors (indicated by
RGB vectors of (127, 127, 127) in the cube map) for the tangents and
binormals. Don't know if this is related or an explanation but let me quote
a reference I used for this


Blending the Tangent/Bitangent Vectors
Let's say you are creating smoothed vertex normals, by adding the face normals of adjacent triangles for each vertex, then normalizing the vector. You can do the same thing with tangent and bitangent vectors.

Note that the 3 vectors (normal, tangent, bitangent) may not form an orthogonal basis since the tangent & bitangent directions are based on texture uv coordinates and possibly averaged from multiple vectors. What you can do is use Gram-Schmidt orthogonalization. This is performed simply by subtracting the part of a vector in the direction of another vector then renormalizing. For example the code to make the tangent orthogonal to the normal is:

tangent -= normal * tangent.dot( normal );
tangent.normalize();

Once you have two orthogonal vectors you can use the cross product to compute the 3rd. The orthogonalization step seems to be mainly necessary on complex curved models or places with texture seems. Many texture seems however will cause weird lighting no matter what, so if the tangent/bitangent vectors are too far apart you'll probably be better off leaving a split at the seem and not smoothing them together.

(I think where he says seems should be read as seams.) The implication
I get from this is you might see things due to the tangents and binormals
and not necessarily from the vertex normals. I had wondered about this
before but it might be hard to see just in a texture on clothing but easier
to see in the face, for example.

Without an experiment I don't know how to pin this down as the cause of
the smoothing line being seen but it's a possibility. We could try distorting
the mesh wherever it disagrees with CA's vectors and see if that correlates
with the smoothing line.:study:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


@GOM and KE,

Let's say I want to add a spear to a dismounted knight, in addition to the sword they already have, then I would add the spear in the model (after isolating it from another model) and in the modeldb, I would add the animation for the spear (along with making the accompanying string number changes, etc...) Figuring out texture assignments might be tricky...

I may look at changing the dismounted broken lances again and give them a heavy spear to be used somewhat like a pike (this would require me to take away the buckler and add in the pike animation instead...)

After that, if I am successful I am going to switch some helmets around...

Again, you guys have done great with this... I see good things ahead!!!:2thumbsup:

AT

Well done!

Adding a spear to sword armed dismounted figure - Try to find a spear that uses the same attachmentset texture and you don't have to worry about changing uv values. Check the spears Tab/Groups/Comments and make sure they are listed as primaryactive. Go into Tab/Groups/Comments for the swords and alter them from primaryactive to secondaryactive, this lets m2tw know how to treat the group. If you can't find a pike in the same attachmentset texture be adventurous and stretch the spear. Of course you have to make all the relevant text entry changes.

Happy experimenting

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@All...
I have noticed working with the Pikemen that in the model, the pike is a little over 2x the height of the soldier (scale wise that might be around 12 to 14feet...). In game, if appears the pike is longer, almost 3x (18', which is what the pike would have been...) is there some factor that is controlling the scale or the length of the pike???

Pictures...
Tercio Pike in Battle
https://img386.imageshack.us/img386/58/terciopikeinbattlegd0.th.jpg (https://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=terciopikeinbattlegd0.jpg)

Tercio Pike in MilkShape
https://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7123/terciopikeinmilkshapeko5.th.jpg (https://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=terciopikeinmilkshapeko5.jpg)

[zxiang1983]

@AT.
Like this:)
1) Select the weapon you want to mod
2) In model tap, choose scale. Usually to change the length of the weapon you just need to input a number in Z coordinate and make sure X&Y coordinate is unchecked.
3) Click Scale

The number in Z coordinate means how many times it grows, eg. 2 means the weapon becomes twice as long as before. X&Y will change on the other two directions. You may try them out to see what will happen

[Myrddraal]

I haven't looked at M2TW pikes, but in RTW pikes were handled differently from other weapons. It's possible this is still the case in M2TW, just in case what zxiang said doesn't work.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Myrdraal and zxiang1983, (and GOM and KE)

That's why I wondered, because I was able to alter the pikes somewhat just by text editing, but changes were minimal at best. zxiang1983 is right about the length, I can scale it down "by origin" in MilkShape, but there is still something somewhere increasing their length. I have not figured that one out yet.

I have another proposal for the community at large. If it is something that is wanted I am breaking out the individual weapons, shields and helmets on some of the figures. Example would be isolating the burgonet or cabasset for the pikemen for all lods (lod0, 1,2,3). We might be able to collaborate as a community to form a library of parts and pieces that can be added to figures. Right now it appears that helmets , shields and weapons can be "kit-bashed" on units (using GOM's merge function in his converter) as they all use the same basic coordinates, which makes basic modding a breeze. (This can also be done with new helmets, shields, etc...)(I believe the above is true for all en_XXX models, rn_XXX and ln_XXX models)

These pieces and parts could be offered in a zip to provide others the pieces without having to isolate them themselves. Just something to think about.

Right now I have so many alternatives of what I can do, I don't know where to begin, so I am just breaking out parts...

GrumpyOldMan has done us all a great service, as well as Knight Errant!!!

AT

[Myrddraal]

That would be a great idea, and one that GrumpyOldMan has already considered and asked me about. We're going to put a new section in the links manager, you can use the uploaders here if you like and add them to the links manager, or you can host them elsewhere and add them to the links manager. A library of Mesh bits sounds like an excellent project.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

One of the first mesh groups I'm going to upload is a corrected bandolier belt or 'apostles' for arquebusiers and musketeers that runs from left shoulder to right hip. This is to satisfy the hysterical historicals like myself. All the vertex assignments and weightings have been corrected. :2thumbsup:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

Hey Grumpy...

I have several of questions for you...

1. I noticed you were able to bring in textures to your models, how did you do that? I have looked at several things, but I am sure its another "duh" question.

2. Also, is there a tutorial somewhere on how to manipulate the meshes (like edit a crest on to a helmet or add a plume, change a spear head, etc, etc...). I found a vertex selector under the pull-downs, but I have not been able to modify anything. The actual vertex selection for that plug-in is not complete yet. Right now I have been perusing the tutorial I downloaded made by a josh fellow...:study:

3. Also, have you explored any further bringing the RTW CAS into MilkShape??

Why I ask, is that for my mod (based on Neoclassical art...), I would like to crop, clip or cut a "mesh" from the RTR Greeks and use it as a "starter for a new helmet in M2TW... I am not sure if I could even bring in a bare-bones mesh... I might be better off editing an M2TW helmet...(going back to a tutorial of some kind)

Anyway, just wondering about that one... Also, there are things I want to change in some RTW games that I couldn't because of not having access to 3dsmax... just like a little kid, my mind is all over the place...:laugh4:

Back to experimenting!!! :2thumbsup:

AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


Hey Grumpy...

I have several of questions for you...

1. I noticed you were able to bring in textures to your models, how did you do that? I have looked at several things, but I am sure its another "duh" question.


First you'll need to get the texture to dds converter and extract the dds files. Next in Milkshape go to Tab/Materials. Select which texture you want to load, figure or attachment. Each texture has two load slots, always use the first one, the second is for separate mask/alpha transparency textures. Load the texture and it should automatically appear on the figure.



2. Also, is there a tutorial somewhere on how to manipulate the meshes (like edit a crest on to a helmet or add a plume, change a spear head, etc, etc...). I found a vertex selector under the pull-downs, but I have not been able to modify anything. The actual vertex selection for that plug-in is not complete yet. Right now I have been perusing the tutorial I downloaded made by a josh fellow...:study:

I had a quick look with Google and apart from Milkshapes own tutorial link page http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/ms3d/tutorials.html the page at http://www.angelfire.com/magic/bastdawn_fantasysims/BastDawn_MS_tutorial.html on how to add a crown has got lots of good info on manipulation and http://learngamedesign.com/gdt_A7.html and the other tutorials linked to that page have also got lots of info.



3. Also, have you explored any further bringing the RTW CAS into MilkShape??

Why I ask, is that for my mod (based on Neoclassical art...), I would like to crop, clip or cut a "mesh" from the RTR Greeks and use it as a "starter for a new helmet in M2TW... I am not sure if I could even bring in a bare-bones mesh... I might be better off editing an M2TW helmet...(going back to a tutorial of some kind)

Anyway, just wondering about that one... Also, there are things I want to change in some RTW games that I couldn't because of not having access to 3dsmax... just like a little kid, my mind is all over the place...:laugh4:

Back to experimenting!!! :2thumbsup:

AT

I've got pre-pre-alpha code for importing CAS files but not exporting back. I was mainly working on it for RTW modders who wanted to bring their meshes into M2TW. The main problem for these people is that the high lod RTW figures are about lod1.5 in M2TW. Might be better to use retextured M2TW groups with bits cut off RTW meshes. If you can specify one RTR Greek figure you'd like to experiment with, I'll export it to Ms3d and send you the basic mesh.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

Grumpy,

Piggy backing on the idea of forming a equipment library, it would most likely make more sense to convert the mesh files in the weapons, shields and equipment libraries found under the data/unit models folder.

Is this something that you have already done? or can you manipulate the converter code to handle them. Right now I just get an error saying the mesh is not setup correctly. Just something to think about...

AT

[Casuir]

Hey, sorry I havent done any testing on this for you but my Ms3d trial period has expired and I dont have the spare cash to fork out for the full version. Been very busy with work as well so probably wouldnt have been able to do much anyways. V Good work though well done to all.

@AT The weapons and equipment in those folders are straight exports from max used by CA to compile the ingame models, they mightnt be set up correctly for ingame use.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Casuir

Yes, you are right about the libraries, but I believe there is a possibility that they could be converted to ms3d as well and could provide an ample supply of equipment without having to extract them from unit meshes. Grumpy would be the one to confirm that though.

@All,
I have been working on getting the helmets extracted.

I also read over the tutorials that Grumpy pointed me too, and I finally have my mind wrapped around texturing within MS. I was able to add a hvy burgonet (tercio pike ug2) and a light burgonet (tercio pike ug1) to Italian Spear Militia "ug0". I was also able to texture by scaling down the actual groups used for the helmets I added and placing them over the texture area for the helmets used by the peasant archer ug2... did ya all get that??!!!:laugh4:

What I tried to do is use the existing texture without having to manipulate too much. This served well. I would post an image, but I need to remove some heads so I don't have long hair popping out beyond the helmets in back. :inquisitive:

I will finish this tonight and post thumbnails for everyone tomorrow.

This is the wonderful thing about these meshes, When I added the first Burgonet, it was placed on all the figures within the unit, then I added the second one and then it mixed them up. My other test is to remove all the heads except one and see if it places them consistently on all the units removing the "big hair" issue...:beam:

AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


@Casuir

Yes, you are right about the libraries, but I believe there is a possibility that they could be converted to ms3d as well and could provide an ample supply of equipment without having to extract them from unit meshes. Grumpy would be the one to confirm that though.

I haven't looked at the weapons there but I know that the CA development meshes had mixed up skeletons, making them useless for modding (this is why I blocked them in the converter). Extracting them from unit meshes has the benefit of correct bone assignments, etc. Once you become a bit more experienced, I honestly can't see it taking more than 60 seconds to isolate and save a specific group or bunch of groups. And when you've done it once for halberds for example, you don't have to do it again. It's there in a file waiting to be used.


@All,
I have been working on getting the helmets extracted.

I also read over the tutorials that Grumpy pointed me too, and I finally have my mind wrapped around texturing within MS. I was able to add a hvy burgonet (tercio pike ug2) and a light burgonet (tercio pike ug1) to Italian Spear Militia "ug0". I was also able to texture by scaling down the actual groups used for the helmets I added and placing them over the texture area for the helmets used by the peasant archer ug2... did ya all get that??!!!:laugh4:

What I tried to do is use the existing texture without having to manipulate too much. This served well. I would post an image, but I need to remove some heads so I don't have long hair popping out beyond the helmets in back. :inquisitive:

I will finish this tonight and post thumbnails for everyone tomorrow.

This is the wonderful thing about these meshes, When I added the first Burgonet, it was placed on all the figures within the unit, then I added the second one and then it mixed them up. My other test is to remove all the heads except one and see if it places them consistently on all the units removing the "big hair" issue...:beam:

AT

Well done AT, you're coming along in leaps and bounds, you've picked up the basics easily. Anything I add here is just an unwarranted intrusion into your creative process :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

Edit:- If you're feeling really adventurous, you could use a full headed head (as long as the helmets fit over it ok) and make the second helmet optional:dizzy2: .

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

@AT
Just to remind you, you're charting upknown waters for the rest
of us, please write everyting down so you can make a good tutuorial
for us. We're loving everything you're learning. Tell us how you did it!

Wanting to switch out weapons too!

KE

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Just a quick question and flight of fantasy, who's going to be the first to modify a figure and use it in the three empty officer slots :yes: :yes: :yes: for a unit. No more generic, home-brand officers, won't that look good :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: .

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

@KE
Your pm inbox is full :beam: EOM

[Bongfu]

This is awesome. Now my team can do some editing of the models to begin our work on our Greco-Persian War mod for M2TW.

[KnightErrant]

@Caliban,

Oops, thanks, I've cleared some space.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@All,

Screenie as promised...
https://img75.imageshack.us/img75/2172/newitalianspearmilitiaab4.th.jpg (https://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newitalianspearmilitiaab4.jpg)

My next project may be the dismounted knights with spear/foot lance and sword. I haven't decided yet which unit I want to do this...

Though I may dive into learning how to modify the actual meshes... I would like to make several new neoclassical burgonets, one with a horsehair plume. I also plan to modify the base spear, not make it so harpoon like... and change the head on the pike (maybe adding different style pike heads)...

edit:
(my next thing I am doing tonight is breaking out all the halberds... both european and me...)

Only problem is job, wife and kids... So it may be awhile...:juggle2:

@Grumpy
Have you been able to convert any siege engines or artillery?

Also (and I am getting ambitious here...) ...buildings? Nothing that has to be done right now, just looking into the future for further modifications for my mod...

I have yet to send you any cas's from RTR, I am having a hard time deciding which ones!!!:laugh4: RTR has awesome units...

@KE
Yes, I am keeping an eye on tutorial stuff. I will most likely being working on one after I learn how to modify the actual mesh. MilkShape has a wonderful tutorial which is simple and fairly easy to follow. That is how i learned to work on the texture coordinates and scale... My tutorial would focus on just simple how to's and where you can find more detailed info for modification.

AT

[KnightErrant]

@AT
Good news on the tut, the how to's would be great.
I've done a few artillery skeletons but then I noticed
that siege engines follow the Aztec variant set up,
with the tangent space info in a different place.
My script took them over to ms3d with no hitch but
I don't have anything in place to go backwards yet.
Just a matter of time and coding as each piece has its
own unique skeleton.

[methoz]

any tool for us ? ISM looks nice :)

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM and KE,

Hey guys, on breaking out weapons, do you think we need all lod's??? or just the lod0?

I could probably move faster breaking out just the lod0, but I am not sure how much effect that would have on graphics if you merge a lod0 with like a lod2 or lod3. Is it any big deal?

AT

[Roman_Man#3]

Where would I find Milkshape? I want to get it, but I have no idea where...cam someone give me a link please?


RM3

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Roman Man #3

Here you go!!!

http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/

It's $25 registration fee to obtain your code, otherwise you have a trial for 30 days. Its worth the money, considering 3dsmax is out of most people's budget...

Grumpy has built a converter/merger/exporter that works wonderfully, but he has not fully released it yet. It is still in alpha.

AT

[Roman_Man#3]

Thanks. and isn't GOM also working on a .cas script so you can import RTW models?

RM3

Wait. So you download it, then you need to buy the registration code?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


@GOM and KE,

Hey guys, on breaking out weapons, do you think we need all lod's??? or just the lod0?

I could probably move faster breaking out just the lod0, but I am not sure how much effect that would have on graphics if you merge a lod0 with like a lod2 or lod3. Is it any big deal?

AT

From what I've seen looking around various meshes, shields are the same in all lods, weapons, generally lod0 and lod1 are the same, lod2 and lod3 are the same. You could get valid figures by using only lod0 weapons but remember any extra triangles are putting a strain on your graphics card, and something that might work on your machine, will slow somebody else's to a crawl.

So if you're making something to only run on your machine, go as detailed as you like, if you want to share then be mindful of others limitations with graphics cards.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM,

Looks like I will be doing all lods...

I only got a souped up video card just a couple of months ago. I know what its like to be frustrated with outmoded graphics hardware...

Thanks

AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Yes, I've finally bitten the bullet and released the beta :balloon2: :balloon2:

Bear in mind that this is the first release and it only supports human figures at this stage.

Mounts will follow shortly and KE is doing stirling work looking at Engines. The beta release is at http://rapidshare.com/files/24060090/Mesh_2_ms3d_beta_1_6.zip.html . I tried to upload it here but couldn't find any upload links. I've talked to the moderators and maybe they can arrange to have it here.

There is a basic readme included with the zip. Read it, because if you ask me a question on something covered in the doc, you'll find out why they call me GrumpyOldMan.

Zxiang1983 has done an excellent basic tutorial on modifying a mesh and getting it into the game. You can find this at http://rapidshare.com/files/23918713/basic_tutorial.doc . Again well worth reading.

If you're a newbie to 3d modelling and/or Milkshape, I had a quick look with Google and apart from Milkshapes own tutorial link page http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/ms3d/tutorials.html the page at http://www.angelfire.com/magic/bastd..._tutorial.html on how to add a crown has got lots of good info on manipulation and http://learngamedesign.com/gdt_A7.html and the other tutorials linked to that page have also got lots of info.

@@@@@Alpha testers - beta 0.16 has a small change because ramrods were being mapped to the wrong texture. The readme has also changed to take into account the smoothing line issue and the resolution of that problem, the 'Optional' flag for groups and a small acknowledgement paragraph (don't be upset if you're not there :beam: ) Alpha testers, don't hesitate to contact me by PM.

Everybody else don't try to PM about issues, start a thread at https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=176 and anybody with the knowledge or I will reply there.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[zxiang1983]

Congratulations on the release! It's a big day in M2TW history!

[KnightErrant]

Second that!
Bravo on a great day in M2TW history.
(Feeling better now.) Many smilies due here as well
as a kudos. (Smilies follow...):balloon2: :applause: ~:) :bow: ~:cheers: ~:cool: :jawdrop: :cheerleader:

[AlphaDelta1]

GOM,

I've noticed that using the Menu/Tools/Model Information 1.7 method to resolve the smoothing line actually applies far too much smoothing all over the mesh.

I wonder if there's a plugin out there for ms3d that allows you to smooth faces with a specific smoothing angle?

Cheers

[Luciano B]

Thanks a lot GrumpyOldMan
...that's a great contribution to the community :)

[alpaca]

:balloon2:

Finally people will be able to edit models, I just hope we'll have enough decent modellers to work on things :inquisitive:

[Herkus]

My gratitude to everyone who worked on this tool. :bow:

[Bwian]

AAAaaaaarrrghhh! You CRUEL CRUEL CRUEL MAN!

You release this tool on the day I go away for a 10 day holiday several thousand miles away from my computer.....

Well... that's life ;) At least I will be fully refreshed and ready to work with it when I get back :D

[zxiang1983]

@GOM
I have a small question. I tried to scale a shield by 2 times larger and during this process I find that every time I scale a mesh group then this group becomes invisible in Texture Coordinate Editor, though it still uses the original texture. Is it suppose to be so?

[AliAS]

Great work :smash: :smash:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1


GOM,

I've noticed that using the Menu/Tools/Model Information 1.7 method to resolve the smoothing line actually applies far too much smoothing all over the mesh.

I wonder if there's a plugin out there for ms3d that allows you to smooth faces with a specific smoothing angle?

Cheers

The main problem is that we're calculating normals, tangents, etc from the vertex information stored in the ms3d. You could use any sort of smoothing angle you like within milkshape but it won't show unless you make some changes to the vertices. The only way around this is to individually select vertices within groups and weld them to lose the lines that are a problem - pretty labour intensive. As long as the welds are within groups, the converter will still produce a valid .MESH file. What the model information process does is weld all vertices within a group, so we can get an overall averaged normal.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

Congratulations and excellent work on the release! ~:cheers:

[AlphaDelta1]

GoM,

Ahh ok, so it's fine to weld verts in one group? I hadn't tried welding as the readme states it will make M2TW crash.

Cheers :2thumbsup:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1


GoM,

Ahh ok, so it's fine to weld verts in one group? I hadn't tried welding as the readme states it will make M2TW crash.

Cheers :2thumbsup:

Yes, but still be careful, I haven't tested it out yet but just by going on how Milkshape stores values internally and in ms3d's, and how we convert to Mesh, I'd just weld vertices that share uv values, remember that the Mesh format is preprocessed to just plug straight into the engine. Of course now that everything is out there, there is always room for intrepid test pilots of new methods :laugh4: :laugh4: .

If you try it, let us know how it goes.

To easily make sure that you're only working on one group - menu/edit/select all, menu/edit/hide selection and use the tab/groups/hide button to unhide the group you want to work on. You probably already know this but I thought I'd put it in this post in case anybody else wants to try.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Re Berengario I]

I have both a problem and both a solution.

Problem: I wanted to change the helms of the armoured sergeants with a modified version of the byz infantry bacinet.

I followed the instructions, deleted the groups, merge into the converter, etc but while the meshed figure displayed correctly into the converter when I pressed "proceed" the program stuck (probably in an endless loop) as the output file continued to grow endlessly.

I tried to switch the meshes to be merged, no results, same error.

So I exported the modified bacinet in 3ds ascii format, which is just a sequence of verteces and faces, imported it into the armored sergeant mesh, deleted their helms, making sure to copy the "comment" of the helm group (the one where there is the body part, group name and a flag). Assign material to the group, skinned (not very accurate as you'll see in the image, but it was just a test), assign the head_bone, save, convert in mtw2 format et voilà:

https://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7820/bacinets1mw1.jpg

This also means that I can use my beloved 3ds to model new stuff and then import it in milkshape and using it with the converter.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi RB1


I have both a problem and both a solution.

Problem: I wanted to change the helms of the armoured sergeants with a modified version of the byz infantry bacinet.

I followed the instructions, deleted the groups, merge into the converter, etc but while the meshed figure displayed correctly into the converter when I pressed "proceed" the program stuck (probably in an endless loop) as the output file continued to grow endlessly.

I tried to switch the meshes to be merged, no results, same error.

Have you still got the original ms3d files? First question, did you try to copy over one of the original files? The Merge facility shouldn't have let you, but this sounds like the sort of error that comes up if you do copy over them (the Merge facility does a second run over the two files, while it's writing the third).


So I exported the modified bacinet in 3ds ascii format, which is just a sequence of verteces and faces, imported it into the armored sergeant mesh, deleted their helms, making sure to copy the "comment" of the helm group (the one where there is the body part, group name and a flag). Assign material to the group, skinned (not very accurate as you'll see in the image, but it was just a test), assign the head_bone, save, convert in mtw2 format et voilà:

This also means that I can use my beloved 3ds to model new stuff and then import it in milkshape and using it with the converter.

I was discussing with KE how long it would take for people to realise that Milkshape has an extensive import facility as well as just being able to open ms3d files :beam: :beam: . I'll make this a separate post as well but I'll let you know what somebody over at the Milkshape forums has told me. There is a plugin for 3ds Max that allows you to export figures (eg RTW .CAS) to Valve .SMD format, these can then be imported to Milkshape :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: But he's not sure if it works the other way.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

I've been ferreting around at various forums trying to solve the problem of moving RTW cas files from 3ds Max into the converter. One guy gave me one tip - to export the loaded cas as an .smd file format, apparently this works. However this not without it's own issues as all groups are merged before conversion.

However, there are a large number of game specific plugins for both Max and Milkshape, it's just going to be a matter of finding which works best in retaining groups, vertex assignments, weights etc.

If I hear any further news, I'll post it up.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

I came across a program that might be handy for the more artistically inclined among us. It's called Tattoo from www.Terabit-Software.co.uk . It's a 3d painter which means you actually texture directly onto the mesh. It does have limitations, you have to convert the group/s to .obj format and it saves textures as .png format, but it does give you the chance to paint in the round.

It's licenceware, if you're using it for private purposes like modding it's free.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

Poking around in the siege engines. The texture paths are stored with the
mesh so we need to modify the mesh reading function. Apart from having
to read the data in the the Aztec variant format, (lousy name but that's
what we called it), the final granny strings are like this:


0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0.00650477409363 1.73901617527 -0.0655624866486 3.33944630623
0 0 0 0
Processing bone strings, number = 8
9 bone_body 0
13 bone_Rwheel01 1
13 bone_Rwheel02 2
13 bone_Lwheel01 3
13 bone_Lwheel02 4
10 bone_winch 5
8 bone_arm 6
9 bone_rock 7
3 0 1 0 19 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 39 0 1 4 20 0 0 0
number of chars 15
siegeenginelod0
17 0 0 0
45 siege_engines/textures/siege_catapult.texture
0 0 0 0
50 siege_engines/textures/siege_catapult_bump.texture
51 siege_engines/textures/siege_engine_overlay.texture
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 18 192 63 0 4 0 0 0 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 9 0 0 0 0 0 0 64 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0
0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 38 0 1 0 21 0 0 0 39 0 20 0 0 0
0.678406953812 1.1524848938 0.0618959590793 3.95701169968


as opposed to a regular unit which looks like this:



0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bounding sphere data: 4 floats
0.484047710896 0.390661180019 0.10376881063 1.71157550812
0 0 0 0
Processing bone strings, number = 26
11 bone_pelvis 0
11 bone_rthigh 1
14 bone_rlowerleg 2
10 bone_rfoot 3
8 bone_abs 4
10 bone_torso 5
9 bone_head 6
8 bone_jaw 7
12 bone_eyebrow 8
14 bone_rclavical 9
14 bone_rupperarm 10
11 bone_relbow 11
10 bone_rhand 12
14 bone_lclavical 13
14 bone_lupperarm 14
11 bone_lelbow 15
10 bone_lhand 16
11 bone_lthigh 17
14 bone_llowerleg 18
10 bone_lfoot 19
13 bone_weapon01 20
11 bone_weapon 20
13 bone_weapon02 21
13 bone_weapon03 22
13 bone_shield01 22
11 bone_shield 22
3 0 1 0 62 0 0 0 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 39 0 1 4 63 0 0 0
number of chars 13
characterlod0
17 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 3 0 0 0
18 192 63 0 4 0 0 0 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 9 0 0 0
0 0 0 64 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0
0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 63 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 38 0 1 0 64 0
0 0 39 0 63 0 0 0
0.484047710896 0.390661180019 0.10376881063 1.71157550812
Bytecount is now 170031


In other words, the granny rules for siege weapons are:

After the 17 0 0 0 which seems to signal the end of the bone strings section,
if the next int is 0, process as a regular unit. If it is non-zero, its a char count
and look for three path names to find the textures. After the first two path
names, expect a zero int for no good reason (this is granny), then read
the third texture file name. Finally, finish off with the usual grannys to end
the .mesh file.

For people who like file format stuff, raise your hands, anyone?, anyone?
Ok, I like file format stuff, the rules are: if there isn't any texture paths,
you have to have 4 int zeroes, 3 of which mean zero length path names,
and 1 which is just there to be annoying. This rule applies to regular
units. If there is texture data, i.e. for the siege weapons, you
have three ints for specifying path lengths, plus the actual paths, and the 1 zero int to be annoying. After that, you have the usual concluding
granny strings.

For people reading the byte strings: yes, the 0 0 128 63
is the byte code for 1.0 but this doesn't really elucidate things because we
don't know what it's used for.

Anyway:

Where do we put this texture info in the .ms3d format? I would suggest,
but we can think about it, in the material or joint comments section. We
haven't used these yet and they allow unlimited comment lengths for all
the different siege weapon paths. (Each siege weapon has its own skeleton
and unique sets of texture files.)

[Re Berengario I]

Hi RB1



Have you still got the original ms3d files? First question, did you try to copy over one of the original files?


Yep I still had the original files but I saved the modified meshes with the deleted groups using different names and I saved the merged one using a third different one.

If you want I can PM you the files for testing purpouse as I solved the problem in an other way merging stuff into milkshape with the import function.

Btw, I used 3ds ASC formart because it's just rough geometry data, other formats, like the OBJ one, add another skeleton or other unnecessary stuff which results in an error inside MTW2.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi RBI


Yep I still had the original files but I saved the modified meshes with the deleted groups using different names and I saved the merged one using a third different one.

If you want I can PM you the files for testing purpouse as I solved the problem in an other way merging stuff into milkshape with the import function.

Btw, I used 3ds ASC formart because it's just rough geometry data, other formats, like the OBJ one, add another skeleton or other unnecessary stuff which results in an error inside MTW2.

PM me the ms3d files that you tried to merge, I'd like to see what is happening.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Re Berengario I]

Hi RBI



PM me the ms3d files that you tried to merge, I'd like to see what is happening.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

Bah, I'm unable now to replicate the problem. This happen when you model at 3 AM in the night I fear :dizzy2:. Anyway as this leaded to the discovery of a system to import stuff and merge it into milkshape I'm happy anyway :yes:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi RBI


Bah, I'm unable now to replicate the problem. This happen when you model at 3 AM in the night I fear :dizzy2:. Anyway as this leaded to the discovery of a system to import stuff and merge it into milkshape I'm happy anyway :yes:

I'm just guessing but it sounds like the Merge Ms3d was trying to read something that wasn't there, trying to do it's best, it gave you garbage from random memory. Most likely you had inadverdently deleted the skeleton from the helmet ms3d, this would also cause the type of error you described. Both ms3d's in the merge must be set up as valid m2tw mesh groups which means the skeleton must be present in both.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Taliferno]

Quick question but probably an easy answer (its my first time modding anything ever outside of text files, so please be kind).

After merging the parts that I want, the unit doesnt save as a MS3D file but as a plain old file. This means that I cant convert them back to .Mesh for MTWII. Any solutions?

[Casuir]

After the 17 0 0 0 which seems to signal the end of the bone strings section,
if the next int is 0, process as a regular unit. If it is non-zero, its a char count
and look for three path names to find the textures. After the first two path
names, expect a zero int for no good reason (this is granny), then read
the third texture file name. Finally, finish off with the usual grannys to end
the .mesh file.

This seems to be the material part of the file Caliban mentioned in the file format:


Materials =
{
Name,
[TextureNames],
ZCompare,
ZWrite,
Culling,
AlphaBlendSettings,
[ColorParameters],
[FloatParameters],
TextureMatrix[2] (unused for characters)
}

The last bytes in both files could possibly be the rest of the stuff in the material part here, have to admit I dont know what they're for though 1.0 looks like a value some of them would use. As for how to store the texture information, pretty certain the ms3d format should allow you to do this, the unit models are unusual rather than the norm in not having textures specified in the file.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi T


Quick question but probably an easy answer (its my first time modding anything ever outside of text files, so please be kind).

After merging the parts that I want, the unit doesnt save as a MS3D file but as a plain old file. This means that I cant convert them back to .Mesh for MTWII. Any solutions?

Well, this one has got me baffled. The way the code is written, there should be no way that the merged file can be written as anything but 'name'.ms3d. Could you do me a favour and go through the process again, keep a note of exactly what you do and see if the result comes out the same. If it does, let me know and we'll organise a transfer of the two original files and the merged file.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi T


Hi T
Well, this one has got me baffled. The way the code is written, there should be no way that the merged file can be written as anything but 'name'.ms3d. Could you do me a favour and go through the process again, keep a note of exactly what you do and see if the result comes out the same. If it does, let me know and we'll organise a transfer of the two original files and the merged file.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

I went back and checked my code and you're quite right, I didn't put in a check to make sure that the file name had the right suffix :oops:

I've uploaded the new zip to http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/M2TW_Uploads/MP_replays/Mesh_2_ms3d_beta_1_7.zip I had to put it in the MP_replays area because that's the only M2TW upload link I could find.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Re Berengario I]

Now the new goal would be to create a tool to create lods automatically.

I know that a good lod would need a lot of manual work but using the milkshape dx tool it'd really be a time saver in some situations if it only wouldn't remove all the joints.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

The previous fix 0.17 worked too well but was adding '.ms3d' to anything that wasn't nailed down.

Another beta has now been uploaded to http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/M2TW_Uploads/MP_replays/Mesh_2_ms3d_beta_1_8.zip

Thank you for your attention, guinea pigs and lab rats

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi RBI


Now the new goal would be to create a tool to create lods automatically.

I know that a good lod would need a lot of manual work but using the milkshape dx tool it'd really be a time saver in some situations if it only wouldn't remove all the joints.

I have never been able to find a lod tool that is not more trouble than the work you save :furious3: .

However, now that we are becoming a large block of Milkshape owners, we can approach Mete (the owner and programmer) to come up with a better solution.:idea2:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[AlphaDelta1]

Is there a simply way to make sure M2TW displays one body with one set of arms? I.e I would like body_01 to display with arms_01, body_02 to display with arms_02 etc etc

Cheers

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1


Is there a simply way to make sure M2TW displays one body with one set of arms? I.e I would like body_01 to display with arms_01, body_02 to display with arms_02 etc etc

Cheers

The only way is to combine the body and arm groups, which means that in the mesh you can only have the combined groups. I'm using a similar method for 17C musketeers with different coloured coats.

In Tab/Groups select the two groups you want combined and hit the regroup button, this will combine the groups and give you a new group with a name like 'regroup 1'. Make sure you edit the group comments so it reflects a body group.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@All,

I hope it is OK that I post these here. I have been working on new helmets and new weapons. I am going to try to get these in game this weekend.

New Burgonet I am working on. Grumpy, I might need you to look at this and help me with the smoothing issue...
https://img329.imageshack.us/img329/7441/newburgonet03xj0.th.png (https://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newburgonet03xj0.png)

New NeoClassical Burgonet with a Greek Crest, complements of RTR's Seluecid Pikemen:
[img=https://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2870/newburgonethvygreekcresjy4.th.png] (https://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newburgonethvygreekcresjy4.png)

New Neoclassical Burgonet with Roman plume, again compliments of RTR's early roman legionary:
[img=https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2717/newburgonethvyromanplumtx0.th.png] (https://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newburgonethvyromanplumtx0.png)

(@RTR modellers... I am a big fan of your units, I hope you all don't mind me using your parts...:sweatdrop: )

OK, new weapons... Now I am just getting started and most of you could give a rip about this, but I am a big stickler for detail. What I have changed here are the pike heads. I will also be making new spears, lances and javelins as well.

[img=https://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9599/pike01vx1.th.png] (https://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pike01vx1.png)

[img=https://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1742/pike02uc5.th.png] (https://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pike02uc5.png)

[img=https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4267/pike03lg7.th.png] (https://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pike03lg7.png)

That's all I have right now. More to come when I can get them in game.

Again, Thanks to Grumpy for his help and thanks to the RTR guys for their exquisite models.

AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


@All,

I hope it is OK that I post these here. I have been working on new helmets and new weapons. I am going to try to get these in game this weekend.

New Burgonet I am working on. Grumpy, I might need you to look at this and help me with the smoothing issue...

With any bits you chop off RTW figures there will be an issue because of the lower level of detail in RTW. The raw bits would probably work for lods 2 and 3. To make the bits smoother and more curved, you have to work on them in isolation before you've added them to any m2tw groups.

First, after loading the bits, go to Menu/Tools/Smooth Edges and use with the default setting. After Tools/Model Information, this gives you great smooth edges but an outrageous triangle count. Next use Menu/Tools/DirectX Mesh Tools and adjust the number of triangles with the slider until you get something more reasonable. This tool will decrease the number of triangles but wipes out vertex assignments in the process, but since we're working with a raw bit it doesn't matter.

I hope that's what you're after.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM,

Precisely,

Thank you sir for that info.

Sometimes you look under the Tools Menu and it gets a little overwhelming as to what you can use. :rolleyes3:

Thanks,

AT

[AlphaDelta1]

In Tab/Groups select the two groups you want combined and hit the regroup button, this will combine the groups and give you a new group with a name like 'regroup 1'. Make sure you edit the group comments so it reflects a body group.

Will the bones need to be re-assigned? If so how is that done? I'll give this a try later today and let you know it goes.

One other question; if I lengthen a spear by about 50%, which bounding spear figures (if any) do I need to change?

Cheers and thanks again.

[zxiang1983]

@GOM
I had a problem. Every time I edit a group, eg scale a shield or move it or whatever, then I cannot find them in Texture Coordinate Window. So I cannot remap them. Any way to solve this? Thanks in advance.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Zxiang


@GOM
I had a problem. Every time I edit a group, eg scale a shield or move it or whatever, then I cannot find them in Texture Coordinate Window. So I cannot remap them. Any way to solve this? Thanks in advance.

You mentioned this before and I couldn't get the problem to happen to me then. I tried scaling, moving and rotating groups in both the figure and attachment material. I just tried it again and I still can't get this error to appear.

When you go to Texture Coordinate Window (TCW):-

- is the group selected in the main Milkshape window (select again or select all if not sure)?

- when you choose the group from the TCW dropdown is the right texture shown?

- if you are certain that the group is selected, and the right material is shown and the right group is shown in the drop down, what happens when you press the 'Fit Selection' button in the TCW?

Let me know if the problem resurfaces.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[zxiang1983]

@GOM
Problem solved. I just didn't select those groups... so stupid mistake. Thank you very much!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Zxiang


@GOM
Problem solved. I just didn't select those groups... so stupid mistake. Thank you very much!

No problems, don't worry about stupid mistakes, that's how I learnt most of what I know :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1


Will the bones need to be re-assigned? If so how is that done? I'll give this a try later today and let you know it goes.

One other question; if I lengthen a spear by about 50%, which bounding spear figures (if any) do I need to change?

Cheers and thanks again.

Regrouping retains all vertex info - assignments, weights, uv, etc.

With the spear and bounding sphere, I'm not sure on the exact value for your spear but it is the 4th value (we're assuming this is radius) which seems to denote length of weapon. This is an area where we're still experimenting, and I'd like to congratulate you on being one of the first to take the new plane into the sky :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: . I'd check the length against a pike and use a proportional 4th value between the original spear, pike and your modified spear. Let us all know how it goes.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Luciano B]

I started to work on some early renaissance pieces of armour.

Here some examples:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=82884

I'll make some experiments to merge them into existing models. Suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Luciano B

[GubZol]

Hi!

Im new here...
And i need a modeller, to work for me...
If anybody wants help me, please advise me.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi LB


I started to work on some early renaissance pieces of armour.

Here some examples:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=82884

I'll make some experiments to merge them into existing models. Suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Luciano B

Good work there, you'll have to reduce the triangle count to make them workable in-game. If you have a look at https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1494122&postcount=381 above and my reply https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1494201&postcount=382 I talk about triangle counts and how to mange it in Milkshape. You'll need to get them over into Milkshape to get them converted. As you can see from Andromachus Theodoulos' post he is also working on Renaissance helmets.

With the general arrangement in game, I'd leave the mazzocchio and turban as separate groups as 'Attachment' type groups. If you have these groups as optional then half your figures will have no attachment on their helmets and the other half will have a random mix of the two, of course if you have more than one texture for these then you increase the number and variety shown.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Grumpy and KE,

Help! I did something wrong. I had worked on these guys all weekend.

https://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7362/stiffasaboardod2.th.jpg (https://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stiffasaboardod2.jpg)
I am not sure what I did. :laugh4: The result of being too ambitious perhaps?

This is pike_militia_ug3

I removed the swords and pikes, added new swords, and three new pikes. I removed all the helmets and added four new helmets, figuring that this I could do this, because it worked with vanilla switch outs before.

I do know this, that when I was texture mapping the helmets, the plumes form RTR did not show up in the Texture Coordinate Window, so I just ignored it so I could get on with testing.

I may have to send you the files so you can see what is going on.

Let me know if that is OK with you.

Edit:
I am backing up with the original I posted not too long ago. Adding one piece at a time, until the error shows up again.

Edit 2:
I am confident that it centers around the foreign converted CAS in the form of the added plumes. Am I supposed to do something with the vertices or perhaps group them to the helmets?? The plumes are segregated on their own within the model, but I borught them in by proper method by the merge function in the converter.


AT

[Herkus]

I am not sure what I did. The result of being too ambitious perhaps?
You didn't assign vertices to corresponding bones, did you?

[SHREDDER]

Hello!
I beg pardon for my English.

Thank you for the prosecution of breaking of MESH! :2thumbsup:

As far as did I understand it is yet impossible correctly by hand to assign vertices to bones? When I did it and inserted in a game - units turned out with the placed hands, without animation, and with problems in the
variants of bodies, hands and heads ...

In addition, does not turn out even to give vanilla unit new weapon (to that I did).... I do not know in what problem.....:dizzy2:

OK will farther understand :juggle2:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


@Grumpy and KE,

Help! I did something wrong. I had worked on these guys all weekend.

I am not sure what I did. :laugh4: The result of being too ambitious perhaps?

This is pike_militia_ug3

I removed the swords and pikes, added new swords, and three new pikes. I removed all the helmets and added four new helmets, figuring that this I could do this, because it worked with vanilla switch outs before.

I do know this, that when I was texture mapping the helmets, the plumes form RTR did not show up in the Texture Coordinate Window, so I just ignored it so I could get on with testing.

I may have to send you the files so you can see what is going on.

Let me know if that is OK with you.

Edit:
I am backing up with the original I posted not too long ago. Adding one piece at a time, until the error shows up again.

Edit 2:
I am confident that it centers around the foreign converted CAS in the form of the added plumes. Am I supposed to do something with the vertices or perhaps group them to the helmets?? The plumes are segregated on their own within the model, but I borught them in by proper method by the merge function in the converter.


AT

It's hard to say what you've done. A quick check to see if you've not assigned all vertices to bones is load the ms3d figure in Milkshape, Menu/Edit/select none, Tab/Joints/Select Unassigned - as long as you've got the Draw Vertex Weights box, etc unchecked this will show you if there are any vertices unassigned. With being unable to see them in the TCW, scale the texture down to .1, make sure you've Selected All in the main window, select the plume in the TCW drop down and if it still doesn't show up then press the Fit Selection button and see where it ends up. Make sure that you've assigned the right material to it, as well. Attachments are on the figure texture and equipment are on the attachmentset texture.

Let me know what happens, if need be I'll arrange to download it to see what's happened.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM

I did as you suggested and the whole plume lit up like a christmas tree, so I assume that means all those vertices are unassigned.

Sooo... Now I am assuming that I stay under that tab, take those selected vertices and assign them to the head bone (making a logical deduction here... hopefully).

Let me know if I am on the right track, in the mean time I am going to try my proposed solution.

Aaack, learning this model stuff can be a humbling experience... :laugh4:

Most of my mistakes seem to be "duh" ones...

Edit:
The problem goes deeper than I thought. I assigned the crest to the head bone, but the soldiers are still appearing the same way. Also, the plume is appearing on all the helmets, which this probably goes back to some kind of group comment or something. I can post the model somewhere if you have time to look at it.


AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


@GOM

I did as you suggested and the whole plume lit up like a christmas tree, so I assume that means all those vertices are unassigned.

Sooo... Now I am assuming that I stay under that tab, take those selected vertices and assign them to the head bone (making a logical deduction here... hopefully).

Let me know if I am on the right track, in the mean time I am going to try my proposed solution.

Aaack, learning this model stuff can be a humbling experience... :laugh4:

Most of my mistakes seem to be "duh" ones...

Edit:
The problem goes deeper than I thought. I assigned the crest to the head bone, but the soldiers are still appearing the same way. Also, the plume is appearing on all the helmets, which this probably goes back to some kind of group comment or something. I can post the model somewhere if you have time to look at it.


AT

Post it up somewhere, and I'll have a look. Are you listing the plume as an Attachment or equipment, or have you regrouped it with the helmet?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Shredder


Hello!
I beg pardon for my English.

Thank you for the prosecution of breaking of MESH! :2thumbsup:

As far as did I understand it is yet impossible correctly by hand to assign vertices to bones? When I did it and inserted in a game - units turned out with the placed hands, without animation, and with problems in the
variants of bodies, hands and heads ...

In addition, does not turn out even to give vanilla unit new weapon (to that I did).... I do not know in what problem.....:dizzy2:

OK will farther understand :juggle2:

Work through Zxiang's tutorial, http://rapidshare.com/files/23918713/basic_tutorial.doc and see if you can get that example to work.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

Make sure that you've assigned the right material to it, as well. Attachments are on the figure texture and equipment are on the attachmentset texture.

Is this hardcoded into the converter? I.e. is it possible to have a body variant using the attachmentset texture and vice versa without the converter flagging them as such? Hope you understand that.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Got bored with coding so I thought I'd try my hand at finishing off a new figure.

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/17C_musketeer.jpg

It's a mid 17C musketeer (about 1630-1660), the white sashes, arm band, etc are one attachment set (only one per figure will be shown). These are field signs that can be retextured for either faction colours or more historical (ie red for imperial) colours. I've only done one body variant and one hat variant up to now but I've regrouped the arms and body together so that they can have coats of different colours. I've made and imported a wide brimmed hat. It's a bit hard to see in this pic but I've also made and imported a brass powder flask as well as corrected the bandolier belt to hang from the left shoulder to the right hip. The powder bag has also been changed to hang on the right hip. The legs, waist sash and sash ends are from the Hashishim, the body, heads, arms and muskets from the Cossack_ug1_musketeer and the swords, powderbags and bandolier belt are from the arquebusier.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Casuir


Is this hardcoded into the converter? I.e. is it possible to have a body variant using the attachmentset texture and vice versa without the converter flagging them as such? Hope you understand that.

Yes this is hard coded into the converter, I have to alter the uv coords to split up the combined texture, so I have to be able to alter it back again to m2tw values. If you want to have all body variants on the attachmentset texture then you can call them equipment, but it'd be easier to rescale your body textures down a bit to fit them all onto the figure texture.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Luciano B]

Thank you very much.

I exported the barbute from 3DS Max as a "Wavefront object", I imported it in Milkshape, I joined it to the "bone_head" and I assigned the same texture of the "figure". I renamed it "Helmet 4" and I copied the comment from the existing "Helmet 1" changing in the copied comment the number "1" to "4". Finally I exported all to .mesh format using the converter.

I made some attempts to put the modded model in game, with no result; the game CTD just after the start of the test "custom battle" with an error message. I'll make further attempts to resolve the issue.

Here a screen with the vanilla Venetian infantry with a new barbute:
https://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1163/provabarbutaol4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Casuir]

Hi Casuir
Yes this is hard coded into the converter, I have to alter the uv coords to split up the combined texture, so I have to be able to alter it back again to m2tw values. If you want to have all body variants on the attachmentset texture then you can call them equipment, but it'd be easier to rescale your body textures down a bit to fit them all onto the figure texture.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

I was thinking more in terms of memory usage than fitting stuff on them, the number of actual textures in m2tw is not that many compared to the number of units and mods with a lot of different units may run into resource problems if they're not careful. I was thinking more in the line of having different units being able to share different texture, ie model a has the same trousers and shields as model b, these could be put on one texture while the other parts would be put on th attachmentset texture which is shared by another model which uses say the same torso and weapons, just keeps resource usage tidied up a bit, also would allow more flexibilty for variations if you had a unit that required special treatment. I think its technically possible provided you have the textures in the right place (or the right folder specified in the modeldb), far as the engine is concerned its just taking two textures, putting them together and applying the uv data to that. Not a major thing but would be nice if it was possible :beam:

Btw, v nice model, you got it ingame yet?

@Luciano B what does the error say, also what texture is applied to the helmet in that screen? though that really shouldnt matter.

[alpaca]

Grumpy, out of interest: What did you make that model for?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Casuir


I was thinking more in terms of memory usage than fitting stuff on them, the number of actual textures in m2tw is not that many compared to the number of units and mods with a lot of different units may run into resource problems if they're not careful. I was thinking more in the line of having different units being able to share different texture, ie model a has the same trousers and shields as model b, these could be put on one texture while the other parts would be put on th attachmentset texture which is shared by another model which uses say the same torso and weapons, just keeps resource usage tidied up a bit, also would allow more flexibilty for variations if you had a unit that required special treatment. I think its technically possible provided you have the textures in the right place (or the right folder specified in the modeldb), far as the engine is concerned its just taking two textures, putting them together and applying the uv data to that. Not a major thing but would be nice if it was possible :beam:

Btw, v nice model, you got it ingame yet?


You can already do this, you just have to think outside the box. If, for example, you want to shift your leg textures to the attachmentset texture then you just re-class the legs groups as equipment(n) and they are mapped to that texture. As long as they are valid groups, the engine doesn't care what they represent just that the vertices are correctly assigned. You just have to be careful that you don't mix Legs and 'equipment' legs in the one mesh.

With the model, no I haven't got it in game yet, it's more a learning exercise for me because I haven't done any text editing yet - I've been kinda obssessed :laugh4: :laugh4:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi LB


Thank you very much.

I exported the barbute from 3DS Max as a "Wavefront object", I imported it in Milkshape, I joined it to the "bone_head" and I assigned the same texture of the "figure". I renamed it "Helmet 4" and I copied the comment from the existing "Helmet 1" changing in the copied comment the number "1" to "4". Finally I exported all to .mesh format using the converter.

I made some attempts to put the modded model in game, with no result; the game CTD just after the start of the test "custom battle" with an error message. I'll make further attempts to resolve the issue.



It's hard to know what you've done wrong, from what you've written it sounds like you did the right things. Have you tried converting your new mesh back into Milkshape format (don't overwrite the one you were using as the basis) and looking through the values and comments?

If there is nothing obvious, post the file up to rapidshare or something similar, let me know where it is and I'll have a look.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

Hi Casuir



You can already do this, you just have to think outside the box. If, for example, you want to shift your leg textures to the attachmentset texture then you just re-class the legs groups as equipment(n) and they are mapped to that texture. As long as they are valid groups, the engine doesn't care what they represent just that the vertices are correctly assigned. You just have to be careful that you don't mix Legs and 'equipment' legs in the one mesh.

With the model, no I haven't got it in game yet, it's more a learning exercise for me because I haven't done any text editing yet - I've been kinda obssessed :laugh4: :laugh4:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

The engine doesnt assign equipment to every model though does it? Could the same be done for weapons/shields or would they have to remain on the attachmentset texture, i.e. flag them as attachments

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi alpaca


Grumpy, out of interest: What did you make that model for?

It was partly a technical exercise for me, because I've been so obssessed with the mesh converter I haven't paid attention to threads on putting new figures into the game. I haven't had much chance to follow other threads, much less play M2TW :laugh4: :laugh4: .

Also partly because this is my favourite period in history, mainly in eastern and northern Europe and I can visualise figures without a problem. I don't know if M2TW is up to playing this era due to a lack of combined arms but, gosh, I like the look of the era. I thought once I'd made a fairly generic figure for this era then it would be pretty easy to expand to other figures, essentially replace the weapons on this figure and you've got artillery crew and militia pikes, replace the wide brimmed hat with the original cossack hat and booted legs, then you've got Swedes in winter dress, etc, etc.

After I get this in game, I'll try my hand at an office, drummer and standard bearer and see if I can use the officer slots in the text files.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Casuir


The engine doesnt assign equipment to every model though does it? Could the same be done for weapons/shields or would they have to remain on the attachmentset texture, i.e. flag them as attachments

If the 'Optional' flag (0 or 1 int the group comments) is set as 0 then the group is flagged as compulsory and given to each figure. Attachments are on the 'figure' texture, equipment are on the 'attachmentset' texture - don't blame me, I didn't come up with the semantics :laugh4: . Shields are a bit of a different matter because the engine needs to know they are there. I haven't tested it though so if you'd like to be an intrepid test pilot, you could change all the shields to equipment and see if this causes the game to crash :beam: .

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

Hi all,

I've posted my Python meshconverter here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92321

It does mounts and siege engines but has not been extensively
tested. Requires Python 2.5 to be installed to run it.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi KE


Hi all,

I've posted my Python meshconverter here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92321

It does mounts and siege engines but has not been extensively
tested. Requires Python 2.5 to be installed to run it.

Well done, great work!!! (Now at least I won't feel so guilty about not putting out my code :laugh4: :laugh4: )

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Here's the later musketeer in game (it took me a while but I finally tamed the text beast):-

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/late_musketeers_in_game.jpg

I'm not happy with some of the vertex assignments on the waist band field sign so I'll redo them, I think. When I get some body and hat variations in, it'll look a lot better, I may set the field signs as optional so it only appears on 50% of figures.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

@GOM

Thanks! Nice looking unit btw.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi KE


@GOM

Thanks! Nice looking unit btw.

Yes the unit not's looking too bad, once it's finished I'll upload it as a shared resource for anybody that's working in that era.

Check out this :-

https://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1869/oldzf2.jpg

It's from a guy, SillyOldSod, at twcenter (his post http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1624433&postcount=10 ). It cracks me up every time I look at it :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: . I may have to ask him if I can use it.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Ashdnazg]

@GOM: If it's your favorite period in history you might be interested in this:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=69372

P.S. good job with the converters!

[Luciano B]

Thanks again for the quick responses ...I resolved the CTD problem ...I didn't know that I'd need to delete the two files data\descr_geography_new.txt and data\descr_geography_new.db after the unpacking process :inquisitive:

...now I have another problem... :wall:
I modded the vanilla Venetian heavy Infantry, deleting all the existing helmets and adding the new barbute. But ingame all the modification are not present: I still have the vanilla unit with the original helmets (which I deleted) and without my new barbute ... is it possible that the game engine still reads the meshes stored in the packs and not the unpacked, modded meshes? ...suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

[SHREDDER]

Luciano B

It is needed to write in properties of label of game " --io.file_first"

[Luciano B]

Thanks Shredder
...as you probably noticed I'm moving my first steps into M2TW modding....

Now all seems to work in the right way :)
Here the Venetian infantry with my barbute mixed up with the other vanilla helmets:
https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7016/ssbarbutaxa9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

P.S. do you know how to get closer to the figures with the camera???

[Herkus]

great work
how did you mapped your barbute helmet? in max or milkshape?

[alpaca]

Haha that looks really nice already. You should consider working for a mod team (for example, for me :laugh4:)

[Re Berengario I]

P.S. do you know how to get closer to the figures with the camera???

Free the camera in the game options.

[SigniferOne]

Thanks Shredder
...as you probably noticed I'm moving my first steps into M2TW modding....

Now all seems to work in the right way :)
Here the Venetian infantry with my barbute mixed up with the other vanilla helmets:
https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7016/ssbarbutaxa9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Why are the other units so darkened? You sure everything went through okay?


P.S. do you know how to get closer to the figures with the camera???
I think you need to be in "replay" mode, then you can even go through units if you want to. In regular mode the camera stays a short distance away from soldiers.

[Luciano B]

Why are the other units so darkened? You sure everything went through okay?

...It appens because there's the shadow of some palm trees over them :)

https://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3817/ssbarbuta03xt5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

https://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7294/ssbarbuta02bu4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)


P.S. Thanks again to all.

[Luciano B]

Haha that looks really nice already. You should consider working for a mod team (for example, for me :laugh4:)

Thanks for the kind offering, Alpaca ...but I'm really busy to complete our current version for RTW/BI of "Paeninsula Italica":
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=216

...we are also exploring to convert the project for M2TW for a future release running with the new engine.

Once finished the RTW/BI version of "Paeninsula Italica" I planned to help the team working on the mod "Condottieri" which covers the wars in Italy during the early renaissance, so I'm currently doing my modelling experiments working on late medieval/early renaissance stuff... if you need something related to this era you're welcome...

[Luciano B]

great work
how did you mapped your barbute helmet? in max or milkshape?

Thanks Herkus

I used the mapping utility provided with milkshape; I mapped provisionally the new helmet on the vanilla texture
https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7946/ssbarbuta04gf4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

My next goal will be to move the whole helmets matter from the main "figure" to separate attachments... I don't know if it will work ...suggestions will be greatly appreciated :)

[Herkus]

Aha, thanks a lot Luciano.

I am also going to include helmets in game. Made them very different from each other (and very low in polies) and will try to make completely new map by deleting previous helmet textures.
so far... without texture
shape:
https://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7720/helmsxo7.th.jpg (https://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helmsxo7.jpg)
wires:
https://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2816/wirebt3.th.jpg (https://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wirebt3.jpg)

[zxiang1983]

@Herkus

All nice looking helmet, looking forward to them. Did you make them in Max or Milkshape?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Just so you don't think I've been slacking while the erudite and talented KnightErrant has been releasing his code, here's a pic of the latest project, this is to help the RTW modders who want to move over to M2TW.

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/convertedRTW.jpg

I've made a converter that takes RTW CAS figure files (human only at this stage) and converts them to Milkshape ascii files with the vertices already assigned to the correct M2TW bones. There's a little bit of prep work required but nothin goverly hard or complicated to get them m2tw ready.

I'll put a GUI on it tomorrow (all things being equal) and put it up as a separate program.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Herkus]

@Herkus

All nice looking helmet, looking forward to them. Did you make them in Max or Milkshape?
Thanks, I made them in Max.

@GrumpyOldMan
Excellent work. :2thumbsup: This will really help some of the RTW big mods who are planning to convert to M2. I guess that model is around 600 polygons, :dizzy2: , that can make difference in game's performance.
Did you assigned the same texture file for figure and attachments or made separate texture files?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Herkus


@GrumpyOldMan
Excellent work. :2thumbsup: This will really help some of the RTW big mods who are planning to convert to M2. I guess that model is around 600 polygons, :dizzy2: , that can make difference in game's performance.
Did you assigned the same texture file for figure and attachments or made separate texture files?

Yes it's the same number of tris as a RTW cas, I must admit I did cheat a bit though and use the same model for lod0, lod1 and lod2 :beam: It's around the same as a m2tw lod1/2 figure.

I didn't mess with the usual texture set up and used the same texture for both but with one in the model texture folder and one in the attachmentset folder. I'll leave such intrepid adventuring to any volunteering test pilots :laugh4:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Luciano B]

Aha, thanks a lot Luciano.

I am also going to include helmets in game. Made them very different from each other (and very low in polies) and will try to make completely new map by deleting previous helmet textures.

Well done, Herkus.

I guess that I have to decrease the numbers of polis in my barbute... however it still works smoothly running in my old PC...

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@All

Good stuff going on here!!!!

@GOM

Grumpy, I figured I would post this out here so others can read this who may not understand.

Could you give an explanation of (in MilkShape) what the comments mean under the Model tab (they look like some kind of coordinates) and under the Group tab.

Thanks,

Oh, Can't wait to try out the CAS/MESH converter!!!!

AT

[Athokas]

I feel like a moron for asking this but how do you import the model into 3Dmax?:embarassed:
I converted the meshes to the only thing possible, MS3D, but Max won't load it. Read the readme carefully, but it is mostly directed at Milkshape users:book:

Sorry for being a retard but please:help: :shame:

[Herkus]

I feel like a moron for asking this but how do you import the model into 3Dmax?:embarassed:
I converted the meshes to the only thing possible, MS3D, but Max won't load it. Read the readme carefully, but it is mostly directed at Milkshape users:book:

Sorry for being a retard but please:help: :shame:

Open the ms3d model in milkshape, then go to - file->export->Autodesk 3DS->save the file.

After that - open Max and go to file->import-> and browse for the 3ds format which you saved with milkshape.

[KnightErrant]

Hi AT,

The data in the model comment is the bounding sphere data. The order
is x, y, z, and radius. You may need to change the 4th entry, radius,
if you switch out a short weapon and replace it with a longer one. Check
what value the unit has that you take the weapon from and see if its
very different.

The comments under the group tab are stored there because Milkshape's
format only allows 32 characters for the group name. The mesh format
requires a group type as well as a group name so we put them in the
group comments to be able to read them out again and put them with their
corresponding triangle group. First entry is the group type like Head, and
the second is the group name like Head_09.

[Athokas]

OMG I have to own BOTH Milkshape and Max? Damn, please extent the converter soon to make it convert Mesh -> 3DS

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@KE,

Thank you sir for that explanation...

I knew you and Grumpy had discussed it before but I couldn't find it...

Thanks!!

AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Athokas


OMG I have to own BOTH Milkshape and Max? Damn, please extent the converter soon to make it convert Mesh -> 3DS

Well, for low poly game models you don't have to own Max at all, Milkshape has got enough features to cope.

If you want to export the ms3d models to 3ds or obj format you can use LithUnwrap, a free program to convert. Just be aware that you lose all bones, vertex assignments and weights (not part of the 3ds or obj format). I've been looking for plugins or formats that could be used but no luck yet.

There is a max to ms3d plugin available from http://legolas.mdh.se/~elt01mcg/ but from what people tell me, it doesn't export rtw cas files successfully. The plugin has source included so maybe somebody that has knowledge of Max can work on it.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[zxiang1983]

The data in the model comment is the bounding sphere data. The order
is x, y, z, and radius.

Hi, KE, thanks for the explanation. But what if the unit has two weapons, one primary and one secondry? Which weapon does the radius mean?

And another question. I had a quick check on one of my self-made unit. Just find that he has five comments! What does this mean? BTW, he's a knight with a cavalry spear and a sword. Several parts of him is taken from other units. And it "seems" work fine in game. So now do I have to delete some of these comments and then modify the rest?
https://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2407/untitledmb4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Thanks in advance.

[SigniferOne]

Did you guys ever figure out what the bounding sphere was for?

[KnightErrant]

@zxiang1983

Hmmm, for the first question I think it should apply to the primary
weapon as that should determine what happens on initial contact.
We haven't done enough experiments with bounding sphere data
to know for sure everything that it affects.

Haven't seen the multiple entries before. This may be an artifact
from the merge; I didn't do a merge facility in my Python script so
this will have to wait for GrumpyOldMan. I would guess that it works
for the back conversion because the comment would be read out,
tokenized by carriage return/linefeed codes and the first four float
values would be used for writing back into the mesh format. At least,
that how I parse it in Python. Does mean that only the first four
values would be used and the others ignored.

Did you do four or five merges to get the final model? For debugging
it would probably be good to know.

[zxiang1983]

@KE
Thank you very much. You are quick:P

It's difficult to remember how many time I do the merges... Due to my memory,
1, merge the body with a helmet
2, merge 1 with a feather
3, merge 2 with shield
4, merge 3 with spear & sword

So, yes, it's four time I did the merges. I think it must be the side product of merge. Now I'm going to delete four of the comments and see what will happen.


Edit: Seems all goes fine. I keep the middle one(the one with radius of 2.05549) and delete other 4 entry. The change of radius is obvious. Enemy unit was taken down even when the weapon did not touch him.

[KnightErrant]

Sounds like an excellent experiment to do. I may have spoken in
ignorance, maybe this is what's supposed to happen. If you merge
maybe you're supposed to get a choice of bounding sphere data.
Helmut, feather, then spear, etc. looks like one of the bounding sphere
entries has a larger radius, see where it goes from 1.32 to 2.055. So maybe
this is just a way of giving the user a choice for the appropriate
data for his modifications. Been busy so I haven't kept up to date with all the
great stuff going on here.~:)

Edit: Excellent spot, radius works with weapon kill. This was speculated on a few
pages back in the wiki. Could you do a few extreme checks like bounding radius
of 5.0 or 10.0 to see if a weapon becomes a long distance killer? I'm not advocating
Medieval Age directed energy weapons or anything but this could be interesting.

[zxiang1983]

@KE
The feather is taken from French Lancers. So I guess the radius is Lancers' and then it's not surprise the number is much larger than others.

Edit: yes, I checked the Lancers's comment. It's exactly a match.

0.736253
0.358799
1.12306
2.05549
/

Edit: Did another experiment, changing the radius from 2.05549 to 5. Due to my observation the effect is not obviouse. I should say it's the same as 2.05549. So maybe there's a maximum number?

[KnightErrant]

Very good, so the model comments build up successive merge information
with new bounding sphere data which you can then pick and choose.

@SignifierOne
I think zxiang1983 is answering your question, radius seems to be related
to where weapon effectiveness turns on. We had thought that the collision
mechanism wasn't as detailed as a per poly process and that seems more
likely now. Must go back and read again a few pages back in this thread.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi KE & ZX

The change in kill radius could also be due to the 'z' value in the third group being for a mounted figure while the others are for foot figures. Check the values of the vanilla figure that you took the lance from, this should give you a rough idea of what would be the proper collision sphere. Generally a 'z' value around 1 means mounted on a horse, and the longer the weapon, the larger the radius or 4th value will be.

With the comments, because people might be keeping their own notes in the comments, what I've done with the merge is to copy the comments from both files and merge them as well. Only the first four lines of the Model Comments are read by the converter for the re-conversion process, first three line for Group Comments. The order is first file chosen to merge has the first lines of comments written.

@KE I've put a response up on the Animations thread

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

@GOM,

Took a quick look at the animations thread. Much thanks but
its late for me so I'll scan more carefully tomorrow. Yes, I did
see the pelvis movement thinking that is the overall animation
change to the (center of mass?).

I think when my brain is rested, I'll have better questions re Euler
conventions. (Have to study the code you've posted.) You were
right, plenty of adventures lie in store.

It sounds though apart from calculated roll, calculated pitch, calculated yaw,
being assigned a different name, that Mete must be following a standard
convention: Said badly, I mean he's not doing a 212 when the rest of the
world does 321 (or 123 depending on the literature you read).

Ok, reread your response again before I hit the submit reply button,
the extra bytes of floats have some global stuff with it. I think I would like
to take the language for a shareware ride. Please send what you can,
I'll try to understand it tomorrow.

(I do appreciate this, starting absolutely from scratch on animation stuff.)

Regards,

KE

[zxiang1983]

Hi, all!

I've got a new problem here. I made a unit which has polish_noble_ug1's body and ee_spear_militia's spear and shield. The model looks fine and even works well in game. However there's something a little wierd. The symptom is as below:
https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3986/0010eb9.th.jpg (https://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0010eb9.jpg)https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8111/0009jp5.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0009jp5.jpg)https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2570/0011no5.th.jpg (https://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0011no5.jpg)https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7316/0012ad8.th.jpg (https://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0012ad8.jpg)

Most of them fight well, but a few of them just stand still and do nothing after the fight begins for a moment. And in most cases they even won't follow your orders such as moving or attacking. Is it a problem of the model or a bug of the game? Because neither of vanilla polish_noble_ug1 and ee_spear_militia has this symptom.

I'm guessing it is related to bounding sphere data? Because polish_noble_ug1 is a cavalry unit but now I put him on foot. But I've also tried to use dismounted_polish_noble_ug1 or ee_spear_militia's bounding sphere data. No luck.

I've upload my mesh files and entries here in case anyone wants to research:
http://rapidshare.com/files/25569499/Wlocznicy.zip

Any help is appreciated!


Edit: Maybe I made some mistake in EDU, coz after I re-write the EDU entry I cannot reproduce this bug. So, problem sovled!:)

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Zxiang



Edit: Maybe I made some mistake in EDU, coz after I re-write the EDU entry I cannot reproduce this bug. So, problem sovled!:)

That's what I like to see, problems raised and then solving themselves without any input from me :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: .

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

There's a slight hold-up with the Cas to M2tw converter, I've been testing it with the cas files from various Mods and it seems that the converter can handle cas files if they are in vanilla format, ie weapons, other bits and then body but seems to lose bits if people have used other methods of cas construction. The files are still valid files for RTW but the converter is having some problems with them. I'm looking through the Cas files at the moment but I haven't found the flag that I need to let my program know that there's more to come. I may have to go back and rejig it completely to catch these files.

Edit:- The converter is converting the majority of files, including all the vanilla files. Do people want me to release the converter as is?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

I've got a question for 3dsmax guys. Has anyone
tried exporting to the Alias fbx format from Milkshape
and then importing into 3dsmax? I'm curious as to what
information is preserved and what gets lost. Reason being
fbx is an undocumented format but Autodesk pushes it and provides
an SDK for it which I assume Mete used parts of to make his importer
and exporter. I wonder if this might be a good way to transfer data
back and forth to Milkshape from 3dsmax. If anyone tries this I would be
interested in the results, please post.

[Herkus]

I've got a question for 3dsmax guys. Has anyone
tried exporting to the Alias fbx format from Milkshape
and then importing into 3dsmax? I'm curious as to what
information is preserved and what gets lost. Reason being
fbx is an undocumented format but Autodesk pushes it and provides
an SDK for it which I assume Mete used parts of to make his importer
and exporter. I wonder if this might be a good way to transfer data
back and forth to Milkshape from 3dsmax. If anyone tries this I would be
interested in the results, please post.
Hi, KnightErrant
I exported fbx format into max about week ago and messed around with it for some time in max. So here are few notes and repeated experiment with screen shots.
The most important stuff which gets preserved are the bones and mesh assignments to them. Though I see severe problems with additional bone objects which are huge in size. That's the problem which I haven't figured out how to overcome yet.

Some visual information while exporting fbx to the Max.
This is the Importer in Max, I didn't edit anything, so just imported with default settings.
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9751/importoptionsxw1.th.jpg (https://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=importoptionsxw1.jpg)

While importing I get this warning, which imo is the main cause for problems with bones' appearance.
https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/299/warningyt2.th.jpg (https://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warningyt2.jpg)

After importing it looks like this. The mesh coordinates are right into (x=0,y=0,z=0) center of the grid, which is good, because importing different formats like 3ds, you get noticeable aberration. As you see the huge bone objects (actually I don't know who they are, looks like skeleton bounding margins from milkshape which you can see pressing show skeleton. You can hide them, but that also hides the skeleton) have moved to left side from mesh.
https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1342/firsttp7.th.jpg (https://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=firsttp7.jpg)

I put on wired material on those bone objects and clicked on of them which appeared to be bone_torso. You can see the large size in right side.
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2282/fifthqo8.th.jpg (https://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fifthqo8.jpg)

Made everything transparent so you can see the skeleton.
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3523/thirdil3.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thirdil3.jpg)

And here is a screen from skin modifier with assigned vertices from the body to the abs bone.
https://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1286/forthia6.th.jpg (https://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=forthia6.jpg)

[KnightErrant]

@herkus
Many thanks for posting your results. It's encouraging to see
that a lot of the information goes over even with the problems
you're seeing. The .ms3d format doesn't have any bind pose
sections in its specification so I don't see a way of fixing it at
that end. I'm sure people will be interested if you find a way of
resolving it, though.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

@KE and herkus

Thanks for the info and exploration, have you tried exporting (the imported .fbx figure) from Max to ms3d with the plugin available from here http://legolas.mdh.se/~elt01mcg/ ?

I've been talking to people on other forums about the difficulties in exporting cas figures from Max to ms3d, and one of the likeliest theories seems to be that the figures are set up with point helpers rather than bones. The fix (set up bones and re-rig the mesh) is probably worse than the problem.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

Hooray!

Now I can join the proper testing party. After sorting out some bizarre problems with a corrupt patch, I got my setup clean and ready, and ran through the tutorial steps to make a Highland Noble Arquebusier. Worked first time :beam:

I am officially happy.

Next job will be to see how easy it is to rig and set up bones on a mesh in Milkshape....If it's easy enough and similar enough to Max, I will be well on my way to putting a full custom mesh in game... which will make me even gladder.

I can already see that the thing is doing proper weighting, which I would use envelopes for. Never done it in MS3D...so here goes!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian


Hooray!

Now I can join the proper testing party. After sorting out some bizarre problems with a corrupt patch, I got my setup clean and ready, and ran through the tutorial steps to make a Highland Noble Arquebusier. Worked first time :beam:

I am officially happy.

Next job will be to see how easy it is to rig and set up bones on a mesh in Milkshape....If it's easy enough and similar enough to Max, I will be well on my way to putting a full custom mesh in game... which will make me even gladder.

I can already see that the thing is doing proper weighting, which I would use envelopes for. Never done it in MS3D...so here goes!

Well done!!

Have a look at http://www.chumba.ch/chumbalum-soft/forum/showpost.php?p=128784&postcount=1 which is a very basic tutorial on the vertex weighting in Milkshape. To assign vertices in Milkshape, first select the bone you want to assign vertices, select the vertices and hit the Assign button in the Joints Tab. This sets up the primary vertex assignment. If the Vertex weights areas in the Joints Tab are greyed and unusable, go to Menu/Vertex/Sims2 Unimesh Show Bone Assignment 2 (or 3 or 4) and this kicks in the weighted vertices.

Let us know how you go.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Taliferno]

Unfortunately http://legolas.mdh.se/~elt01mcg/ ? plugins dont work for me,
and I get a message saying ms3d.dle>is not made for this version of the program-not loading.

Is it because I have the most recent version of 3DS max, or is there another problem?

[Herkus]

Thanks for the info and exploration, have you tried exporting (the imported .fbx figure) from Max to ms3d with the plugin available from here http://legolas.mdh.se/~elt01mcg/ ?

I've been talking to people on other forums about the difficulties in exporting cas figures from Max to ms3d, and one of the likeliest theories seems to be that the figures are set up with point helpers rather than bones. The fix (set up bones and re-rig the mesh) is probably worse than the problem.

Hi
@GrumpyOldMan
I just ran some tests with that plugin, so here are some notes:

Here is the screen of unit's mesh and joints after exporting ms3d format from Max with that plugin.
https://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6978/otraisxe8.th.jpg (https://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=otraisxe8.jpg)
All assignments(mesh to the bones) are still in place, though as you see the joints(blue wired shapes) are way bigger than in fresh ms3d file just converted with your tool. Here is a fresh example, the difference is noticeable:
https://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4737/pirmaiswo8.th.jpg (https://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pirmaiswo8.jpg)

Apparently the mesh model has dwindled in size when exporting from Max with that plugin.

Decided to try to export fbx format from Max back into Milkshape so here are the results:
https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/2903/treshaisbt1.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=treshaisbt1.jpg)
While exporting Max threw me warning again about the "bind pose" and not being able to export it, so he(Max) offered me kinda solution with making something like duplicate bones and meshes(which will appear in the real size) with text line "model::" in front. And I had two choices "continue" or "abort".:wall:
As you see in the screenshot - there are now two models(both have their own joints) - the big one is in the real size and has groups and joints with text line "model::" in front. All mesh assignments to the bones are still in place for both models.

One side note: exporting fbx format to Max - destroys all texture map layout for the meshes, so you have to remap again.

[Bwian]

GOM ... that looks simple enough. I will copy the standard weighting as closely as possible, and try to assign similar weights to vertices in a similar spot. If I hit trouble with that, then I will resort to RTW type simple absolute vertex assignments.

First job, though, is to modify my exisiting 'first attempt' model so it has the required selection of heads etc. I also need to understand how the hierarchy of the model needs to work for the head models ( assuming it has some! ). It looks from the display in MS3D that there may not be anything so complex to worry about, and that it might just be the naming convention that tells the game what is what, with the skeleton making the bits go where they need to be. Hope so!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian


GOM ... that looks simple enough. I will copy the standard weighting as closely as possible, and try to assign similar weights to vertices in a similar spot. If I hit trouble with that, then I will resort to RTW type simple absolute vertex assignments.

First job, though, is to modify my exisiting 'first attempt' model so it has the required selection of heads etc. I also need to understand how the hierarchy of the model needs to work for the head models ( assuming it has some! ). It looks from the display in MS3D that there may not be anything so complex to worry about, and that it might just be the naming convention that tells the game what is what, with the skeleton making the bits go where they need to be. Hope so!

Have a read of the doc that came with the coverters, it talks about the significant entries in the Milkshape comments fields of groups and model.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Herkus


Hi
@GrumpyOldMan
I just ran some tests with that plugin, so here are some notes:

Here is the screen of unit's mesh and joints after exporting ms3d format from Max with that plugin.
https://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6978/otraisxe8.th.jpg (https://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=otraisxe8.jpg)
All assignments(mesh to the bones) are still in place, though as you see the joints(blue wired shapes) are way bigger than in fresh ms3d file just converted with your tool. Here is a fresh example, the difference is noticeable:
https://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4737/pirmaiswo8.th.jpg (https://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pirmaiswo8.jpg)

Apparently the mesh model has dwindled in size when exporting from Max with that plugin.

Decided to try to export fbx format from Max back into Milkshape so here are the results:
https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/2903/treshaisbt1.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=treshaisbt1.jpg)
While exporting Max threw me warning again about the "bind pose" and not being able to export it, so he(Max) offered me kinda solution with making something like duplicate bones and meshes(which will appear in the real size) with text line "model::" in front. And I had two choices "continue" or "abort".:wall:
As you see in the screenshot - there are now two models(both have their own joints) - the big one is in the real size and has groups and joints with text line "model::" in front. All mesh assignments to the bones are still in place for both models.

One side note: exporting fbx format to Max - destroys all texture map layout for the meshes, so you have to remap again.


All very confusing, if you export to fbx from Milkshape and then import fbx, you get the bones with the model:: prefix, etc but no changes in size. To check on the size of an imported model in Milkshape go to Menu/Tools/Show Model Statistics - for a normal m2tw figure the Min y should be around -1 and the Max y should be around +1, this is independent of the size of the bone joints. Did you check on the size of the bone joints in Milkshape Menu/File/Preferences after import, it should be around 0.025 to work with m2tw figures.

The texture coordinates are preserved in the Milkshape export then import fbx.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Taliferno


Unfortunately http://legolas.mdh.se/~elt01mcg/ ? plugins dont work for me,
and I get a message saying ms3d.dle>is not made for this version of the program-not loading.

Is it because I have the most recent version of 3DS max, or is there another problem?

I don't really have much knowledge of Max, but the plugin shows up in www.maxplugins.de/ database for Max9 32 and 64 bit versions. Maybe a trawl through some Max forums can come up with some answers.

edit :- I found an email contact for the writer of the plugin mailto:mcg01001@student.mdh.se

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Taliferno]

Thanks Grumpy, I downloaded the plugin from www.maxplugins.de/ and it works fine-must have been a problem with the one on his home page.

[Herkus]

Hi Herkus
All very confusing, if you export to fbx from Milkshape and then import fbx, you get the bones with the model:: prefix, etc but no changes in size.

Yes.
Ah, the thing about that smaller model was kinda silly. I forgot that importing stuff doesn't delete previous scene but merges together :embarassed: my bad. That small guy was ms3d model from Max export ms3d plugin.



To check on the size of an imported model in Milkshape go to Menu/Tools/Show Model Statistics - for a normal m2tw figure the Min y should be around -1 and the Max y should be around +1, this is independent of the size of the bone joints.

After checking that here are the results in milkshape:
Using export ms3d plugin in Max - cuts the size of model three times.
Using export fbx in Max - doesn't change the size.



Did you check on the size of the bone joints in Milkshape Menu/File/Preferences after import, it should be around 0.025 to work with m2tw figures.

Hmm, size of bone joints was set to value "1". I thought that's the default version so I didn't change that value.
I changed as you advised to 0.025 and it looks as it should, I suppose. Thanks. Probably milkshape preferences were discussed before in this thread which I missed.



The texture coordinates are preserved in the Milkshape export then import fbx.

Well texture coordinates were already lost in Max after importing fbx format from milkshape.


*Also the mesh group comments are lost after this exporting/importing in milkshape.

[AlphaDelta1]

16:08.718 [data.invalid] [error] DATABASE_TABLE error found : max records exceeded from file Broken_Crescent/data/export_descr_unit.txt.

I got this error after adding my 100th new unit. It's interesting that the error has come from the export_descr_unit file. I always thought the limit would come from the battle_models.modelsdb file.

It's not a massive problem as you can simply delete out units you dont want.

Cheers

[KnightErrant]

Was your unit count 500? I thought this was the EDU limit from RTW so maybe
it's the same here.

[AlphaDelta1]

I just put the file through vim, and yes the limit is 500. That's a bit of a shame really.

Cheers

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1


I just put the file through vim, and yes the limit is 500. That's a bit of a shame really.

Cheers

Is the EDU one of the files that can be moved to Mod folders under 1.2?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

I've put the alpha RTW cas to Milkshape converter out to test with a few people. Unless anything major turns up, I'll release it shortly.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Lusted]

Is the EDU one of the files that can be moved to Mod folders under 1.2?

It could before 1.2, i've had the edu in a mod folder since 1.0.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Lusted


It could before 1.2, i've had the edu in a mod folder since 1.0.


Thanks for the info

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

After I sent off the alpha RTW cas to m2tw milkshape converter to be played with, I got a bit bored and seeing I had about 100 converted CAS files I thought I might as well get them into M2TW and see how they look. The results are below:-

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/urukhai_pike.jpg

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/hopliteandindianswords.jpg

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/hoplites_indians_vs_urukhai.jpg

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/hoplites_indians_vs_urukhai_2.jpg

I think the Hoplites are vanilla RTW, the Indian Golden sword is from Blue Lotus and the UrukHai Pikeman is from one of the Middle Earth mods. All these cas files are starting to merge together for me now :laugh4: :laugh4:

There seems to be one issue with the weapon textures on one figure, I was trying to use the same texture for both figure and attachments, but the weapon texture looked a bit strange. I'll check my text entries and also try moving a copy of the texture to the attachmentsets folder.

Edit:- Checked my text entries and I forgot to put the '0' at the end of the attachment normal texture :oops: , so yes you can use the same texture for both. Incidentally has anybody come up with the modeldb animation entries for foot spear_primary and sword_secondary.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Herkus]

Hi, great work GOM.
Hoplites have longer spears than M2:tw vanilla spearmen, does spear length make any difference in melee?

[SigniferOne]

To piggyback on the previous post, it seems that the bounding sphere affects from how far away the soldier can cause damage, is that right? Have you tested this with long spear units, and do they have second and third rows pitching in on the fight. Also, how does this affect soldiers with a spear and a sword, since from what I understand only one bounding sphere is provided for each soldier.

What modeldb entries do you mean? To give the hoplites a different animation?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Guys


Hi, great work GOM.
Hoplites have longer spears than M2:tw vanilla spearmen, does spear length make any difference in melee?

I've just tried it with vanilla bounding sphere lengths for a spear, I'll leave the testing for intrepid test pilots :laugh4: :laugh4:


To piggyback on the previous post, it seems that the bounding sphere affects from how far away the soldier can cause damage, is that right? Have you tested this with long spear units, and do they have second and third rows pitching in on the fight. Also, how does this affect soldiers with a spear and a sword, since from what I understand only one bounding sphere is provided for each soldier.

What modeldb entries do you mean? To give the hoplites a different animation?

Yes the bounding sphere dictates how far away the weapon is effective, from the battle I fought with these models (in 1.1 vanilla) it seemed that the AI could get all ranks of the spears involved. This is just a guess but maybe if the enemy soldier is within the bounding sphere then the model switches to secondary weapon - just from observation.

The modeldb entries are to give the hoplites the secondary sword, in the system log it shows that it can't find the animation for it. I've tried a few alternatives from the animation folder but all I get is the Eternal Black Screen of the Infinite Loop :beam: . I couldn't find a vanilla spearman with secondary sword to copy from.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

Swiss pikemen seem to have one, havent got the game unpacked so cant tell you the entry, sorry.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Casuir


Swiss pikemen seem to have one, havent got the game unpacked so cant tell you the entry, sorry.

Yes there are lots of pikemen that have secondary swords but I haven't found any spearmen yet, being usually lazy :laugh4: :laugh4: I like to copy where I can. So I was looking for a sword and shield armed figure, maybe I'll try copying from the dismounted feudal knight again, maybe it was my pudgy fingers that brought on the EBSIL (Eternal Black Screen of the Infinite Loop :laugh4: :laugh4: ).

Edit:- I went right through the modeldb file and there are NO spear and sword armed foot figures. Below is the code I've been putting in:-

4 None
10 MTW2_Spear 0
19 MTW2_Swordsman 2
18 MTW2_Spear_primary
14 fs_test_shield 2
18 MTW2_Sword_Primary
14 fs_test_shield

Any clues on what I'm doing wrong? If I leave out the secondary sword, I don't get the EBSIL but there is an error message in the system log that it can't find the secondary weapon animations and the figures go back to idle poses if any enemy gets within the bounding sphere. :furious3: :furious3:

Edit2:- I found that if I replaced MTW2_Swordsman with MRW2_Slow_Swordsman it now works, you must be only able to use MTW2_Swordsman with primary weapons ?? Also there's no skeleton for it in the animations folder. An important point to note is that once enemies get within the bounding sphere, figures turn to secondary weapons, so many spear fights rapidly turn into sword fights - this is probably why there are no vanilla foot spear and sword armed figures. Possibly decreasing the bounding sphere radius will allow hoplites and such to retain their spears longer

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

Hi GrumpyOldMan,

The count on your
19 MTW2_Swordsman
entry is off. Try 14.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi


Hi GrumpyOldMan,

The count on your
19 MTW2_Swordsman
entry is off. Try 14.

Curses, I hate simple solutions :laugh4: :laugh4: , did work but there is still the problem of secondary weapons taking over. At the first part of a melee, all the spears for a regiment are exchanged for swords (even the rear ranks), gradually they return as the melee develops but this is probably why there are no vanilla spear and sword foot troops. Maybe Caliban or somebody else at CA can provide further guidance or information, any fixes for something similar to this mentioned in 1.2?

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/not_many_spears.jpg

edit Did try it against spear armed opponents but it was the same.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Trotski12]

Have you tested this with long spear units, and do they have second and third rows pitching in on the fight.

Yes the bounding sphere dictates how far away the weapon is effective, from the battle I fought with these models (in 1.1 vanilla) it seemed that the AI could get all ranks of the spears involved.

It's not how the things are going on with pikes... only one or two ranks can fight, ignorring the 4 th value of the bouding sphere...

Take a look :

http://trotski12.free.fr/mtw2/0000.jpg

http://trotski12.free.fr/mtw2/0010.jpg

crap...

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Trotski12


It's not how the things are going on with pikes... only one or two ranks can fight, ignorring the 4 th value of the bouding sphere...

Take a look :

crap...

I think it's a limitation on the game engine rather than anything to do with the bounding sphere. But when you sit down and analyse it, the fact that they're animating, moving, checking for collisions for a few thousand figures and running an AI, all at a reasonable frame rate is not something to be sneezed at. The code is very well optimised and it can only get better from here. Once you've got the basics like vertex/matrix animation, collisions and (sigh) eye candy done you can concentrate on further improvements - like combined arms, the end of the 'propeller wheel' (relic of the nineties that it is), proper use of depth in formation animations, etc. Did I mention combined arms by the way :wall: ?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Just a quick question (me being too lazy to try it myself), has anybody had any joy in using the Officer slots in the edu?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[SigniferOne]

Well it really seems like the bounding sphere is too small if those spearmen let the enemy approach them so closely. Try doubling the size of the bounding sphere, see what happens :)

PS I've been too lazy to try the officer slots as well.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Grumpy,

Update on CAS converting...

I have converted several RTW models form various mods trying to bring them in MilkShape.

I tried NTW2 models and I was able to bring them in to MilkShape quite easily.

I also tried both RTWBI (Barbarian Invasion) and some RTR models and on some of the models the conveter poops out only producing a 1KB file with the following in it...

//Milkshape 3D

Frames: 1
Frame: 1

On others, like the Burgundian Lancers (RTWBI) I did get a file but an error message showed up saying: "parameter must be positive", when I bring it up in MilkShape, I get an "Error importing MilkShape 3D ascii" This has happened with the bulk of the RTR files as well

I am using the latest converter you posted, 1.2.

Let me know and I will post some txt files for you to look at...

Please advise...

Thanks!!!

AT

[Trotski12]

Hum i'll try, but it seems that bouding sphere have something to do with the visibility too. I mean, one time i tried to change the first digit to 15. (i'm a bezerker, i know :p) and, when viewing at the unit IG with with a particular angle of view, (when you're looking the face of your guy, move to look at the left shoulder) the guys are disapearing when closing to theim, from a distance around 5-8 meters IG.

Well did'nt noticed something different, cause of work (in france we got a presidential issue :p ) but i'll try to look what happens more carefully.


@grumpyoldman :

didn't really understood what you said... can i mail you just to discuss what exactly you know about the game is working, if i'm not too disturbing, and if you got the time to do so?

(and, i think, it's not a bad idea to experiment what's the bouding sphere issue and post here clearly what does it do)

Edit :

So i tried to change each value..

Well for the 3 firts ones, it change the visibility of the unit

http://trotski12.free.fr/mtw2/1a2v.jpg

(here the 2 first values changes to 5)

and the fourth, it seems that it have nothing to do with weapon length :

http://trotski12.free.fr/mtw2/charge.jpg

the cahrge and fight sequence is exactly the same as if i did'nt modified the values.

something strange, without any modifcation on those values, just the model's pike lenght
the landsknecht had litteraly "stepped" to death the swiss, without allowing theim to flee.

But the thing is taht they still "engage" melee at the same distance (the phalanx formation proprety i think) :

http://trotski12.free.fr/mtw2/0011.jpg



any suggestion?

[Lysander]

has anybody had any joy in using the Officer slots in the edu?


I have been able to add officers in through the edu (just like in RTW), but I only tried the vanilla meshes for this

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Guys

I've been working on some mid 17c musketeers and I've finally finished the coat, leg and hat variations. I've put up some pics so people can see. I'll upload a zip with the meshes and textures so people working in that period can use them if they want to.

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_late_musketeer_1.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/late_musketeer_1.jpg)

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_late_musketeer_2.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/late_musketeer_2.jpg)

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_late_musketeer_3.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/late_musketeer_3.jpg)

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_late_musketeer_4.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/late_musketeer_4.jpg)

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_late_musketeer_5.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/late_musketeer_5.jpg)

Edit:- I've uploaded the files at http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1307 there's no text entries though.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


@Grumpy,

Update on CAS converting...

I have converted several RTW models form various mods trying to bring them in MilkShape.

I tried NTW2 models and I was able to bring them in to MilkShape quite easily.

I also tried both RTWBI (Barbarian Invasion) and some RTR models and on some of the models the conveter poops out only producing a 1KB file with the following in it...

//Milkshape 3D

Frames: 1
Frame: 1

On others, like the Burgundian Lancers (RTWBI) I did get a file but an error message showed up saying: "parameter must be positive", when I bring it up in MilkShape, I get an "Error importing MilkShape 3D ascii" This has happened with the bulk of the RTR files as well

I am using the latest converter you posted, 1.2.

Let me know and I will post some txt files for you to look at...

Please advise...

Thanks!!!

AT

Ooops, well you know the last exe I sent you was to fix a problem with converting cas' with more than 10 groups.... ummh, it looks like this one only works on cas' of more than 10 groups :oops: . Where it bombs out, my guess is there's less than 10 groups in the cas. Try converting with 1.1 and see if that works while I take an extremely large tree branch to my pc and code. The Milkshape ascii files are straight text so you can open them up in Notepad or similar, if you do get a problem compare a known good ascii file with the problem file for any formating issues. If there's an extra linefeed hanging around you'll get 2 or 3 little squares in the number of meshes.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Trotski12


Hum i'll try, but it seems that bouding sphere have something to do with the visibility too. I mean, one time i tried to change the first digit to 15. (i'm a bezerker, i know :p) and, when viewing at the unit IG with with a particular angle of view, (when you're looking the face of your guy, move to look at the left shoulder) the guys are disapearing when closing to theim, from a distance around 5-8 meters IG.

Well did'nt noticed something different, cause of work (in france we got a presidential issue :p ) but i'll try to look what happens more carefully.


@grumpyoldman :

didn't really understood what you said... can i mail you just to discuss what exactly you know about the game is working, if i'm not too disturbing, and if you got the time to do so?

(and, i think, it's not a bad idea to experiment what's the bouding sphere issue and post here clearly what does it do)

Edit :

So i tried to change each value..

Well for the 3 firts ones, it change the visibility of the unit

(here the 2 first values changes to 5)

and the fourth, it seems that it have nothing to do with weapon length :

the cahrge and fight sequence is exactly the same as if i did'nt modified the values.

something strange, without any modifcation on those values, just the model's pike lenght
the landsknecht had litteraly "stepped" to death the swiss, without allowing theim to flee.

But the thing is taht they still "engage" melee at the same distance (the phalanx formation proprety i think) :



any suggestion?

Thanks for experimenting with the bounding sphere values the more we learn the more we can do as modders.

Re your question on my knowledge of the mechanics of m2tw, I don't have any sort of detailed knowledge of this particular game but I have been looking at RTS' for a long time and I can guess what the system designers are doing and what sort of methods they are probably using. The main issue is not to get confused with control of individual soldiers (units) and regiments (formations). The bounding sphere is one method of controlling the interaction of the units (we're just not sure exactly how yet :beam: ). Controlling the behaviour of one unit however won't affect the controls placed on the formation. The formation has a separate and distinct method of control and once the formation has been set, the information on where a particular unit should be is relayed to that unit, and then various controls, actions and interactions affect that unit. So this means that although we can play all we like with the bounding sphere, this will not affect how the formations move and react - so charge and reaction remain the same. I don't know how deeply you want to go into this but there are lots of excellent articles and tutorials spread around various gaming and programming sites. Don't be put off by the age of any articles, the fundamental basics of movement, formations, collisions, pathfinding etc have not changed that much in the last 10-15 years - just the code to do it has improved dramatically :beam:

Have you tried shortening the pike length to spear length with the same bounding sphere values, be interesting to see what happens.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Trotski12]

The main issue is not to get confused with control of individual soldiers (units) and regiments (formations).

I know, and as i'm trying to make pikes more usefull (well, more real), i'm tryign to determinate how i can make the guys separatly (units) fight from a longer distance, and after i'll what i can do for formations (but i think noone found a way to edit theim, isn't it? if someone knows something about it, i'll love him forever :p (please, girls first :D )

And i don't know how much anims and skeletons affect both the units side and the formation one.

fshort spears and long 4 th value :

http://trotski12.free.fr/mtw2/splb.jpg

long spears and short 4 th value

http://trotski12.free.fr/mtw2/lpsb.jpg

Oh, and i have to shut down the converter every time i launch the game, cause it slow it down... too much

[hellenes]

Grumpy is it possible to increase the body part variations? So almost every soldier in a unit looks different? It would be handy for a possible LotR2TW mod...

[Herkus]

yes, it is possible

[hellenes]

yes, it is possible

So it is possible to have 150 guys looking all different with different faces/bodies/arms/legs? WOW!!!!
This might allow to make an Orc Unit in which every single orc is different... :dizzy2:
But doesnt it have a hit on performance or its bareable?

[Herkus]

So it is possible to have 150 guys looking all different with different faces/bodies/arms/legs? WOW!!!!
This might allow to make an Orc Unit in which every single orc is different... :dizzy2:
But doesnt it have a hit on performance or its bareable?
Well I doubt that you could make 150 different body models and I guess that it is not possible technically too.
But for example you can make for you Orc unit 5 different body models, 5 different leg models, 5 different arm models, 5 different helmets. By making that amount of models for different part - you can get 625 variations, not to mention that you can also add 5 different heads and even more shields.

The performance would be hit if those models would be way too detailed (poly count).

[Bwian]

Making progress..... but I can't work out what I am doing wrong here:wall:

I have not bothered to fully weight the model yet, but have short-cutted it by assigning all the verts to the abs bone. I know what this will do, and it's doing what I expected. No..the problem is elsewhere!

I have a problem getting the textures to show up. The texture has been converted from a DXT5 to a texture file, and is in the texture folder for the model. It just won't show up! I have changed the texture entry in the models db, and changed the mesh there. The mesh change shows up fine..but the texture is all wrong.

I also can't get the models to show up close in.....zoom in and they disappear!

It's not a lod thing...since I have duplicated the same model for lod0,1,2 and 3. It's baffling me.....

[Herkus]

@Bwian.
Hmm, thats strange. Did you mapped your mesh in Max? If yes, maybe during exporting to milkshape the texture map coordinates were lost?
Can't think of anything else right now.

[hellenes]

Well I doubt that you could make 150 different body models and I guess that it is not possible technically too.
But for example you can make for you Orc unit 5 different body models, 5 different leg models, 5 different arm models, 5 different helmets. By making that amount of models for different part - you can get 625 variations, not to mention that you can also add 5 different heads and even more shields.

The performance would be hit if those models would be way too detailed (poly count).

So the limit is 5 different heads? Hmmm so it means that 30 guys will look exactly the same...
Is this an engine limit? Hardcoded?

[Herkus]

So the limit is 5 different heads? Hmmm so it means that 30 guys will look exactly the same...
Is this an engine limit? Hardcoded?
5 heads are not the limit. I have seen seven iirc. 30 guys might share the same face out of 150 (if there are 5 different head models), but every other part from their outfit, body or equipment will be different.

There probably is the engine limit, though this is just a guess. Hardcoded most likely, though we know very little(or nothing) about hardcoded stuff for unit models.

[Roman_Man#3]

I think that 30 guys looking the same is a lot better than 150 guys. And a lot of Orcs had very similar faces, just use a texture to differentiate