A start on the .MESH file format

[Bwian]

Herkus .... that's what I thought initially, but when I imported it into Milkshape and pointed the material editor at the correct texture file, the texture showed up fine there.... so I know the mapping is intact.

When I load the model into the editor, though, I do not get it textured.

The same happened, though, when I was making hte 'mix n match' highland arquebusier on the tutorial.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Trotski12


I know, and as i'm trying to make pikes more usefull (well, more real), i'm tryign to determinate how i can make the guys separatly (units) fight from a longer distance, and after i'll what i can do for formations (but i think noone found a way to edit theim, isn't it? if someone knows something about it, i'll love him forever :p (please, girls first :D )

And i don't know how much anims and skeletons affect both the units side and the formation one.

fshort spears and long 4 th value :

http://trotski12.free.fr/mtw2/splb.jpg

long spears and short 4 th value

http://trotski12.free.fr/mtw2/lpsb.jpg


Oh, and i have to shut down the converter every time i launch the game, cause it slow it down... too much

Thanks again for your work on experimenting, from your screen pics, it does seem that the 4th values or sphere radius does have an effect on fighting distance. Did you notice that the charge distance, etc for the formation remained the same for both cases?


Oh, and i have to shut down the converter every time i launch the game, cause it slow it down... too much

If you press the keyboard 'End' key it will suspend processing of the converter, the 'Home' key restarts operation.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian


Herkus .... that's what I thought initially, but when I imported it into Milkshape and pointed the material editor at the correct texture file, the texture showed up fine there.... so I know the mapping is intact.

When I load the model into the editor, though, I do not get it textured.

The same happened, though, when I was making hte 'mix n match' highland arquebusier on the tutorial.

I'm not sure what's happened here. Have you checked the Tab/Model/Comments to make sure the correct bounding sphere values are present? Have you updated the texture normal file? If the texture shows up ok in Milkshape it should be transferring across to m2tw. Have you checked to make sure that the vertex weighting has been kicked in? Even if you are not using it, it must be present to make a valid m2tw mesh. Go to Menu/Vertex/Sims2 Unimesh Show Bone Assignment 2 (or 3 or 4) v.4.07 and for good measure go to Menu/Vertex/Sims2 Unimesh Fix Underweighted Bones v 4.07. This should make sure that the vertex weighting is alive and well.

If none of this works, put the Milkshape file up at some file storage site and PM the address and I'll have a look.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

Looks good GOM, love the hats :2thumbsup:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi hellenes


So the limit is 5 different heads? Hmmm so it means that 30 guys will look exactly the same...
Is this an engine limit? Hardcoded?

No this is just a common sense limit:beam: , If you have 150 bodies stored then the texture, unless you make it huge, is going to be very basic indeed. Also for each body texture variation you have to have a body mesh stored within memory so they can be accessed for every frame of animation. So yes you can have a huge texture and a mesh with 150 body variations but you'd be limited to only 5 different unit types. The texture would be a drag on your GPU and the mesh storage and access would be a drag on your CPU and ram. The same number of tris (unless you make the meshes FPS-like superdetailed) would be rendered.

A common sense limit of 3-5 bodies, 2-3 legs, 2-3 arms, 4-8 heads and variations in helmets, weapons and shields together with imaginative use of attachments and equipment would make pretty sure that no two identical figures are created in a regiment of 100-150 figures; and the odds, if there are two identical, of them standing next to each other are pretty small.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Caliban


Looks good GOM, love the hats :2thumbsup:

Thanks, maybe I can get a job as a milliner now :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I'm not happy with them though, I made them a while back for something that had backfaces culled so the rim had to have both sides and I thought I'd cleared it up but looking at the pictures shows me that some of the unnecessary tris are still there, still it was an interesting technical exercise for me :beam:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

Thanks for the tips GOM .... let me clarify a little as to what I have/haven't got happening.

1) Weighting.
I am sure the weighting I am seeing is the weighting I put in. I assumed the game model would have to have it in some form, so I assigned all verts to the abs bone. I knew the effect this would have, and I knew it would be easy to spot.

2) Textures.
I haven't changed the texture normal file ... I think this may eaplain some of what I am getting. I will look at that tonight. The texture I am seeing is definitely not showing correctly..but it is showing something! I tried changing the texture back to a stcok texture, and it was clear that the texture changed. Also...the model isn't see through..as I would expect if it coiuldn't find the texture.

3) I have correct values in the model comments tab ( I think ) but I am not 100% sure. I copied these from a stock model, and made sure I had:

class name ( eg head, arms )
part name ( what I had called the part )
0 ( all the bits I looked at had a 0 there! )

Is this right?

What baffles me is that the texture is clearly not showing correct UV mapping, or is showing some very odd variation on it! Also, parts of the model keep disappearing! Look at a rank of troops, and the middle ones are OK, but the ones to the side are just floating heads! Torsos keep vanishing.... very odd! I know I am close.... but this is just not 100% and it's maddening to be this close and yet not succeed :wall: :wall: :wall:

[Casuir]

Pic would help.

[Bwian]

https://img460.imageshack.us/img460/1826/untitled1mn5.jpg

This is the progress to date.

Fixing the normal map sorted out hte texture failing to appear, and this is a step forward! I had the wrong version of hte file in place, and it was screwing it in ways I couldn't have guessed!

Still have some baffling problems though.

Ignore the posture the models are in...I have not properly dealt with the vertex weighting, and I won't until I have the other problems solved!!

problem 1)
I have several variations in the model, all of which are actually in the screenshot...but as you can see, there are pieces missing. Notably, one of the torso variations. Which is a bit odd. Also, when you look at the models to the left of the formation, all you have are heads. If the models were displaying correctly in the other models, why do they vanish ? Aside from the missing torso, all the model parts are showing up in the unit. 3 heads, 2 arms, 1 leg.

problem 2)
When I zoom in close, my new models vanish well before the other units. I thought the lod switching distance was the distance the model switched out... so up close, the highest detail model should ALWAYS be visible. Mine vanish before the English peasants they are fighting.....

[Casuir]

Interesting, are the alphas on the main texture set up right? I'm sure they are but it would cause the meshs to disappear. The heads look like its dropping down to the lower lod, are you using the same file for those? Lod distance is set in the models_db iirc so you might want to check the values there.

[Bwian]

all 4 lods are using the same model and there is no alpha on the texture at all. I considered those possibilities...but ruled them out since they could not explain why the models at the front display the legs... but the ones further out do not. I have not put the lower detail lods in...so I just copied and renamed lod0 to make lod1, 2 and 3. Lod switch distances were kept as per the stock models.

I also don't know why 1 torso shows up...but the other doesn't! The one that refuses to display is just the same as the one that does, only with a belt and loin cloth added. The rest of the mesh is identical, as is the texture. The 'comments' data in Milkshape is identical apart from one having 'Body_01' and the other having 'Body_02'. I actually copied and pasted the comments data and just changed the 1 to a 2... so I know that data is correct. Also, all the model parts show up correctly in Milkshape. I think it is either messing up when I convert, or it is something wrong with my text editing.... but that is hard to spot.

My modeldb entry was just the highland rabble one with the model and texture entries changed to point at my new mesh and textures. Nothing else was altered, so the changes to the text files are minimal. Both model and textures are now displaying correctly, so I don't think it's that.

Since GOM has a reliable conversion process with the tool, I am becoming convinced it has to be something in the way I have set up the model that is messing up the conversion process. Just can't think what!!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian


Thanks for the tips GOM .... let me clarify a little as to what I have/haven't got happening.

1) Weighting.
I am sure the weighting I am seeing is the weighting I put in. I assumed the game model would have to have it in some form, so I assigned all verts to the abs bone. I knew the effect this would have, and I knew it would be easy to spot.

The reason to use those Menu/Vertex commands is to let Milkshape know that this file has to be saved as a multiple weight file even if you only assign 100% to one bone. Your Tab/Joints should look like this:-

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/weighting.jpg

If it doesn't, use those menu commands to kick in the weighting.



2) Textures.
I haven't changed the texture normal file ... I think this may eaplain some of what I am getting. I will look at that tonight. The texture I am seeing is definitely not showing correctly..but it is showing something! I tried changing the texture back to a stcok texture, and it was clear that the texture changed. Also...the model isn't see through..as I would expect if it coiuldn't find the texture.

3) I have correct values in the model comments tab ( I think ) but I am not 100% sure. I copied these from a stock model, and made sure I had:

class name ( eg head, arms )
part name ( what I had called the part )
0 ( all the bits I looked at had a 0 there! )

Is this right?

What you are describing is a Group comment from the Group Tab. The Model Tab Comment should look like this:-

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/modelcomments.jpg

This is the bounding sphere from a mounted lancer, if you're working on a foot figure just convert a similar vanilla foot swordsman, whatever and copy the values into your Tab/Model/Comments. As the work by Trotski12 shows playing around with the bounding sphere values does affect visibility.


What baffles me is that the texture is clearly not showing correct UV mapping, or is showing some very odd variation on it! Also, parts of the model keep disappearing! Look at a rank of troops, and the middle ones are OK, but the ones to the side are just floating heads! Torsos keep vanishing.... very odd! I know I am close.... but this is just not 100% and it's maddening to be this close and yet not succeed :wall: :wall: :wall:

Try these out and see what happens. If there's still a problem, you can upload it somewhere and I'll have a look (or just wait for the RTW CAS converter next week and convert the CAS skeleton figures directly to m2tw meshes :beam: , I think I've still got them on my hard drive somewhere :beam: )

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

I know you were bringing in the skeletons as an exercise in creating a new mesh but I couldn't resist playing with the Cas convert tool. I actually found two zips on my hard drive with Cas skeleton figures and I think they're both yours.

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_skeletons1.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/skeletons1.jpg)

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_skeletons2.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/skeletons2.jpg)

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_skeletons3.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/skeletons3.jpg)

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_skeletons4.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/skeletons4.jpg)

https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_skeletons5.jpg (https://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/skeletons5.jpg)

Hope you don't mind.

Edit:- Have been playing a game with skeleton archers taking on Urukhai pikemen and there is a distinct slowdown when using large amounts of skeletons, I used the 'med' Cas figure as the base and that has around 1200 tris, this is about twice the normal m2tw tris count (for what is shown for each figure). The m2tw engine does not cull backfaces so rather than make meshes for the ribs (this takes up about 300 tris) you could use a normal body and map the ribs on the texture with alpha transparency, this would help cut down on tri count.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

I think you're wrong there grumpy, most of the meshs I've got converted look to be 1500-2000 tris per ingame model, 300 tris for most heads alone.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi

@Casuir and Bwian


I think you're wrong there grumpy, most of the meshs I've got converted look to be 1500-2000 tris per ingame model, 300 tris for most heads alone.

Yes you're quite right Casuir, I must be coming down with 3d fever or something, I've been working so much with converted cas files I was taking their maximums as m2tw's. I just ran it again with even more units and it ran fine. I must have had something running in the background :oops: .

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

GOM ... I made a new skeleton model for MTW2, with a few extra tweaks nad a better head model. Those are definitely my old skeletons...and I can see some real benefits to having the RTW CAS-MTW2 MESH converter! I can slap together a CAS file for RTW in a matter of minutes with complete certainty .... but I still want to understand what is happeneing and why things are not working rather than have a tool do it all manually. I may need to do things this way again :sweatdrop:

I will try the bounding sphere thing. I have not looked at that properly, and need to go back when I have my thinking head on!

Bone weighting is OK. I have deliberately set it how it is, and I know it is working OK... or at least...as I expected it to! I will check you suggestion anyway to make sure I don't introduce a problem when I start proper weighting. I am still new to Milkshape as a 'proper' tool, so tips like this will stop me screwing things up while I go!g up the texture a

Also...the normal map thing sorted out my bad UV textures. The screenshot I posted was after I had fixed it, and the textures are showing correctly. It's just that bits of my skeletons seem to be missing! I'll see if the bounding sphere cure it. Fingers crossed!

Finally....those are most definitely my old skeletons! Nice to see someone downloaded them.... and nice to see them looking pretty in the MTW2 engine. These ones should look even better when done since the feet and hands are more defined, and I re-did the proportions slightly. The necks are too short relative to the shoulder position, and the sternum was very much an afterthought! The new ones have clavicles, better defined radius and ulna on the high detail LOD, and feet that look more like feet. It adds a few polygons...but in proportion to the increase in actual base model polys on the stock figures. I am lightening up the texture as well, to make them more 'desert bleached' and improving the definition on the skull for the MTW2 version. Should look a whole lot better!

[zxiang1983]

Thanks again for your work on experimenting, from your screen pics, it does seem that the 4th values or sphere radius does have an effect on fighting distance. Did you notice that the charge distance, etc for the formation remained the same for both cases?

Hi, GOM.

Due to my observation of the two pics, however I have some different opinions. I think their fighting distance is actually the same. And I noticed that their weapons are the same. I mean though some are longer or shorter, after all they are still pikes. So my guess is the 4th value may have nothing to do with fighting distance? And the one determines how long the weapon is is weapon type. This theory could also explain how those secondry weapons work, IMHO.

I remember something more. Long before mesh convertor came out I tried to dismount a knight templar as a sword&shied unit. So he will swing his lance as if that's a sword. And he is a killing machine in game because his "sword" is much longer than others.

The other thing is an interesting experiment. Two same dismounted feudal knights. Upgrading one's weapon will give him +1 attcak stat only. Upgrading the other one's experience will give him +1 attcak stat and +1 defence stat. So at the first glance we may easily tell who will win in the battle. However, experiments shows that the one with upgraded weapon always win! Do it yourself if you don't believe :D. My guess is that the upgraded weapon model is a little "longer".

Is there anyone who have put a REAL new weapon into the game and what is the result?

[Bwian]

GOM ... still stuck:wall:

I checked the bounding sphere, and it was OK ( the same as a stock peasant ). I tried changing it to the values for Highland Rabble ... but that made no difference at all.

IF you want to PM me, I can e-mail you the MS3D file and textures for you to have a look at. I really want to get to the bottom of this! I need to be able to build models with multyiple parts, and the RTW CAS converter won't aloow that... so I have to learn to make things this way to get the effects I need, so I will persevere until I do get it sorted!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian


GOM ... still stuck:wall:

I checked the bounding sphere, and it was OK ( the same as a stock peasant ). I tried changing it to the values for Highland Rabble ... but that made no difference at all.

IF you want to PM me, I can e-mail you the MS3D file and textures for you to have a look at. I really want to get to the bottom of this! I need to be able to build models with multyiple parts, and the RTW CAS converter won't aloow that... so I have to learn to make things this way to get the effects I need, so I will persevere until I do get it sorted!

PM on its way.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Guys

Two bits of news, I see from the 1.2 patch thread that the Sprite Generator is now going to be included :beam: and Milkshape has released a beta of 1.8.1 and when I get a chance this weekend I'll go through the SDK and also test the converters to make sure the new version doesn't break anything :sweatdrop: Tried a few conversions and it seemed to be ok.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GubZol]

https://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3735/sergeantspearmenji5.th.jpg (https://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sergeantspearmenji5.jpg)

:beam:

[Trotski12]

Is there anyone who have put a REAL new weapon into the game and what is the result?

i'm going on

[Bwian]

https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7526/tombking1cn9.jpg

Flags are flying, cheers are sounding, and the dead are ALIVE ... er..well..actually they're not..they're dead..but they are definitely walking!

After much messing, headscratching, screaming, and asking GOM for help, the first Tomb Kings unit has actually worked.

Don't know exactly what the cure was, but between my adding of a second material for the weapons, re-doing all the weighting ( after GOM spotted the missing bones...:wall: ) and going back through the suggested SIMS2 bone fixing, all is well.

All the various unit bits are there. 3 heads, 2 arms, 2 torsos and 2 weapons. All visible, and the bone weighting is looking just as intended. I am a happy modder again!

Next job is to work back through my steps to re-create it with the next set of units...the Tomb King warriors ( these first ones are more 'peasant' level ) and write up every step of the job for the Tutorial section :egypt:

[Casuir]

Very nice work :2thumbsup:

[Bwian]

And..of course... no Tomb Kings army is complete without some skeleton archers....

https://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1034/tombking2og4.jpg

Warriors are in progress too, with quite a few variations on the shield to allow for different bits of decay and decoration. The basic shape is the same, but the alpha texture is being used to show the decay.

[GrumpyOldMan]

@Bwian

It was a difficult birth but worth it :laugh4: :laugh4:

Well done

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

Definitely worth it!

I am also glad right now that you added the MS3D merge feature into the tool. I have stripped the weapons off the basic model, and am then merging in attachment sets to create the variations. The archers only took me half an hour to build ( all 4 lods ).

I noticed the problems MS3D has with importing mesh parts ontop of other mesh parts ... the 3D window showed a clear issue with the order of rendering, and I can see that this would have the potrential to really mess stuff up!

The next set of units will be the true warriors. I aim to have a simple spearman unit, with a shield as well as a similar swordsman unit. Then some axe/mace units. I want some of these guys with helmets, and lots of shield variations. The Tomb King deisgns have quite large shields, and variations here will be quite prominent. I plan to have 6 or 7 ( at least ) options here.

There is a BIG question looming now though....

Can we change the position of the bones and have that work in MTW2?

I know in RTW the animations just stored the rotational changes to the bones, and that the actual bone positions were stored in the CAs file. This part of the CAS file, though, was not touched by the editor. There was a link, I recall, between the skeleton.dat file which defined how each skeleton was put together, and this was all a bit of a mess. We could scale...but we could not translate a bone pivot and have the change implement in game. If your tool does/can make this possible, then many doors open. Has anyone tried to move or re-size the bones?

[Ciaran]

The dead look great. The RTW version already was very neat, but the variety M2TW allows makes them all the better. I´m so looking forward to what you´re up with the Orcs...

[Bwian]

To answer my own question..... I took one standard soldier, re-positioned the bones, and gave it a try. The mesh was squashed to match, and the bones were re-sited.

The mesh was displaying correctly, but I don't think the bones follow suit. As soon as the model actually moves, the mesh was stretched and the bones were pivoting in their original locations. Whatever the game was doing with the mesh, it was doing itbased on the original pivot positions and was ignoring the changes I had made. When we get around to re-designing animations for the game, we might be able to do more, but it looks rather as though the MTW2 game engine stores the base positions of the skeleton in the DAT file as before, and applies that to the mesh. A way to make a new skeleton would be required to make things possible that RTW never managed to crack.

[Herkus]

Great work, Bwian with those skeletons, I am really happy that you were able to get that mesh in game. I will soon try something similar once I finish one unit which will have five different parts for each mesh group.

Speaking about your skeletons - with the bloom effect the texture seems to be too white and "shinny", maybe desaturate a bit, otherwise the bones look like tooths from toothpaste commercials. :D
Looks like your mod is going to be a cracker.

[Bwian]

I know what you mean! I lightened them from my original effort, since I wanted them to look 'sunbleached' ... but the difference between the archers in full sunlight, and the troops in the shade ( the swordsmen ) is huge. It's the same texture...but the effect is extreme.

The background weather and atmospheris really make a lot of a difference, and I need to adjust my textures to cope with this. I'm just glad they are working!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian



There is a BIG question looming now though....

Can we change the position of the bones and have that work in MTW2?


Short answer is not yet. I'll look at skeletons and animations next.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

Cheers GOM!

No pressure, since what you have achieved so far has really got things moving. God alone knows how much of your time has already gone into getting a working converter, and I really appreciate it :beam:

What bugged me greatly about RTW was the fact that we never actually got to grips with being able to re-site a bone. We could move them in Max, but the game ignored them. Your converter seems to actually transfer the bones as they were in Milkshape... but the animation routines overwrite this.

I don't know exactly how the game does it, but I recall it all boiled down to the ocntents of the DAT file. It defined for each skeleton where the start points were, and the animation was applied as rotations to those positions. Being able to re-write the start positions ( using stock animations or custom ones ) would allow us to make orcs and dwarves with correct proportions.

Hopefully...if I am wrong ... Calban could give us a few clues as to how the whole skeleton / animation thing fits together.

Damn...I wish I could read Hex :dizzy2:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Bored so I tried importing a Valve type smd and exporting it as a m2tw mesh but I don't think anybody will take me seriously:-

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_clowns.jpg (https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/clowns.jpg)

:laugh4: :laugh4:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

Grumpy,

You are scaring me....

What is coming of this??? Who's next cookie monster?

:laugh4:

[KnightErrant]

I want Smurf Warriors!:laugh4:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi KE


I want Smurf Warriors!:laugh4:

Just to prove that I'm really a very, very, sick puppy:-

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_smurfs.jpg (https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/smurfs.jpg)

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

@GOM
Thank you! Now the French will tremble
in their boots at the advance of the English
Smurf Warriors! Unless it rains, then we'll
have tea.

KE

PS: Documentation done and posted, ready
for animations.

[Trotski12]

Argh... my milkshape licence prematurely ended, and the technical support don't want to help me...

crap.



cannot pursue testing, sorry guys.

[Bwian]

KE ... please DO NOT ask for Sonic the Hedgehog troops to repel the advance of the feared Smurf Warriors.... it may happen, and I don't think my sanity will hold out!

[Dave1984]

I hate to make a completely useless post, but I look forward everyday to viewing this thread and seeing what you guys are coming up- it's all just so damned exciting! Can't wait to see some of this stuff released in mods!

[GubZol]

Hey GrumpyOldMan!
Can you create a berserker modell for Denmark? Half nacked, with long hair and a two handed axe?
Can you make me a modell? Please!:help:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Gubzol


Hey GrumpyOldMan!
Can you create a berserker modell for Denmark? Half nacked, with long hair and a two handed axe?
Can you make me a modell? Please!:help:

No, but if you get stuck making your own figure, I'll give you advice on how to fix it.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Guys

I've just uploaded the beta of the RTW Cas to M2tw converter to http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/M2TW_Uploads/MP_replays/RTW_CAS_2_M2TW_BETA_13.zip . Post here if you have any problems.

Oops the doc is here http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/M2TW_Uploads/MP_replays/RTW_CAS_to_M2TW_MESH_doc.zip

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Adragon]

I've just tried the latest version. I'm very eager to convert some of my RTW models but it doesn't seem to be converting properly. It just creates a blank file of the same name with this:

//Milkshape 3D

Frames: 1
Frame: 1

I've tried several vannila RTW models and some others from RTR but havent had any luck.

Any suggestions?

[FedeITA]

hi to all! i have a problem with the mesh editor for mounts, when i reconvert the ms3d to mesh the model ingame is "broken" like some screens in this tread, i tried to see if there are some point unassigned but nothing... sorry for my bad english.
horse in milkshape3d:https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5613/cavallofi0.th.jpg (https://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cavallofi0.jpg)
and ingame:https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3697/cavalloingamemy9.th.jpg (https://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cavalloingamemy9.jpg)

[KnightErrant]

@fedeITA
Check which version of the meshconverter you are using.
I had a bug with uv coordinates not being done correctly. The
latest version, v1_0_2 should have fixed this. You can also
check in Milkshape by applying the texture there and see if it
comes out ok.

[FedeITA]

@fedeITA
Check which version of the meshconverter you are using.
I had a bug with uv coordinates not being done correctly. The
latest version, v1_0_2 should have fixed this. You can also
check in Milkshape by applying the texture there and see if it
comes out ok.
i'm using the lastest version of your tool (1.0.2), and the first screen is from milkshape and you can see that its ok

[KnightErrant]

@FedeITA
PM'd you my e-mail. I'll look at the mesh and ms3d
files and try to figure out what's going wrong.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Adragon


I've just tried the latest version. I'm very eager to convert some of my RTW models but it doesn't seem to be converting properly. It just creates a blank file of the same name with this:

//Milkshape 3D

Frames: 1
Frame: 1

I've tried several vannila RTW models and some others from RTR but havent had any luck.

Any suggestions?

I know there is a problem with BI and Alex figures but it should be converting vanilla and anything exported from Verc's script ok. I know that Andromachus Theodoulos has been working away on converting RTR figures so the converter should work on those.

Can you give me file names of vanilla figures that aren't converting for you.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Roman_Man#3]

I know I have asked this before, but you need Milkshape 3d 1.8.0?

I am not sure which version is needed.

Thanks,
RM3

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi


I know I have asked this before, but you need Milkshape 3d 1.8.0?

I am not sure which version is needed.

Thanks,
RM3

Yes, you need 1.8.0, the beta of 1.8.1 also works as well, but 1.8.0 is the version that has the proper vertex weighting support.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Adragon]

Hi Adragon



I know there is a problem with BI and Alex figures but it should be converting vanilla and anything exported from Verc's script ok. I know that Andromachus Theodoulos has been working away on converting RTR figures so the converter should work on those.

Can you give me file names of vanilla figures that aren't converting for you.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

I've tried over 30 models. Examples are models_unit\unit_greek_hoplite_high.CAS, models_unit\unit_greek_hoplite_med.CAS, models_unit\barb_male_peasant_high.CAS, models_unit\officer_roman_early_centurion_low.CAS

When I have selected one of these files, the program does nothing. A 0kb file is created and I cannot delete it. I have tried leaving the program running for half an hour but it doesn't do anything. When I close the program, the file jumps to 1Kb and inside is that message I posted earlier.

Could Windows Vista have anything to do with this?

[Aradiel]

great work everyone, especially the smurfs gave me a hearty laugh.

Im part of the Rise of Xerxes mod team and would like to ask for some help with rigging.

I read this thread completly and careful, however i still miss some of the knowhow to get started properly. I use 3ds, and therefor i use ms only as a link between the meshconverter and 3ds, although as mentioned the bone and weighting data is lost due to the file conversion. The FBX format was mentioned, although the bonedata is kept, it looks pretty weird to me when i load it into 3ds.

Now i would like to know which file format you prefer, and how you rigged the "new" model. Did you keep the body structure and tryd to assign the new mesh parts as close as possible to the original model structure or simply by trial error ? And why does every unit have 4 meshes when each has stored the different versions of bodykit parts in itself ? I hope you can help me to close some knowledge gaps :help:

greets Aradiel

[Bwian]

I found it easiest to make the mesh and export it as 3DS. No rigging goes with it.

I have saved an MS3D a model with all the mesh removed and just the bones left ( Make sure you have changed the MS3D preferences so the bones show up properly! )

Then, import the 3DS to Milkshape and rig there. It's not that bad for rigging...and quite similar to Max.

Then just save the MS3D file and convert to Mesh.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Adragon


I've tried over 30 models. Examples are models_unit\unit_greek_hoplite_high.CAS, models_unit\unit_greek_hoplite_med.CAS, models_unit\barb_male_peasant_high.CAS, models_unit\officer_roman_early_centurion_low.CAS

When I have selected one of these files, the program does nothing. A 0kb file is created and I cannot delete it. I have tried leaving the program running for half an hour but it doesn't do anything. When I close the program, the file jumps to 1Kb and inside is that message I posted earlier.

Could Windows Vista have anything to do with this?

Quite possibly, I've only got XP and earlier windows so I haven't tested it with Vista. I'll see if I can get any answers on some prog.forums.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

Hi All,

Sorry I have not posted lately, I didn't drop off the face of TW, my wife unchained me from my rock of chores and husbandly / fatherly duties and I was able to do some work.

On converting RTW cas, I have not converted any vanilla, BI or Alexander CAS's, but I have converted a large portion of RTR, Europa Barbarorum and Some Napoleonic TW CAS's... seeing if those CAS's could be brought up into MilkShape, and they can... their corresponding parts can be brought into M2TW flawlessly as I can see through my testing.

I followed Grumpy's converter directions step by step, and with that everything worked great.

Another thing, I am not sure what demand there is for a newbie tutorial on converting meshes and bringing them back into the game. I plan to write one, but all my computer time has been devoted to new unit generation... what little I have right at the moment. If there is large demand for a tutorial, I will get started on one, if it is something that can wait about a month, like say June... I will wait until then everybody can let me know.

Also, to Grumpy, did anyone ever figure out if we can combine spear and sword in units... i.e. give the shield spearmen a sword as a secondary weapon. I know you guys were looking into it a couple of weeks ago for hoplites... I am trying to do the same thing, but I was not sure what the outcome was. Let me know...

Thanks

AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT


Hi All,

Sorry I have not posted lately, I didn't drop off the face of TW, my wife unchained me from my rock of chores and husbandly / fatherly duties and I was able to do some work.

On converting RTW cas, I have not converted any vanilla, BI or Alexander CAS's, but I have converted a large portion of RTR, Europa Barbarorum and Some Napoleonic TW CAS's... seeing if those CAS's could be brought up into MilkShape, and they can... their corresponding parts can be brought into M2TW flawlessly as I can see through my testing.

I followed Grumpy's converter directions step by step, and with that everything worked great.


Cas files are a bit of dog's breakfast, I've found 5 distinct versions so far with their own formats and one of the versions has variations as well. I'm working on converting some of the earlier 3.16 versions as well as the 3.18 versions, I'll have a look at the 3.20, 3.21 and 3.22 versions for BI later.


Another thing, I am not sure what demand there is for a newbie tutorial on converting meshes and bringing them back into the game. I plan to write one, but all my computer time has been devoted to new unit generation... what little I have right at the moment. If there is large demand for a tutorial, I will get started on one, if it is something that can wait about a month, like say June... I will wait until then everybody can let me know.

I hope they say Yes and I hope you can find the time to do the tut. It gives me more time to play with skeletons and animations :beam:


Also, to Grumpy, did anyone ever figure out if we can combine spear and sword in units... i.e. give the shield spearmen a sword as a secondary weapon. I know you guys were looking into it a couple of weeks ago for hoplites... I am trying to do the same thing, but I was not sure what the outcome was. Let me know...

Thanks

AT

Yes we did. The main issue is that the spears get replaced by swords fairly quickly. I've seen a thread either here or at TWCenter where people were working on getting pikes to retain their pikes for longer rather than go for swords. That may be applicable.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Grumpy

Considering your reply on the tut, I count that as 10 votes to start now!!! :laugh4:

Anybody else??

I will be gone all next week out of town, but I can try to start this week...

AT

[The Celt]

Hi All

Bored so I tried importing a Valve type smd and exporting it as a m2tw mesh but I don't think anybody will take me seriously:-

https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/th_clowns.jpg (https://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s104/grumpyoldman2007/clowns.jpg)

:laugh4: :laugh4:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan
I'm lovin it.:laugh4:

[alpaca]

Hey guys, could be I got some info about that sphere for the meshes.
Palamedes said something about a sphere that is kind of an invisible target area for projectiles, so could you try increasing it and do pre and post quantitative testing of projectile effectiveness against the unit?

[zxiang1983]

Hi, Grumpyoldman.

I think maybe I've discovered a bug of the converter or there must be something special in vanilla mesh file.

I convert the vanilla chivalric_knights_lod0.mesh to chivalric_knights_lod0.ms3d. And I use vanilla mtw2_en_pplate_france.texture as his skin(which is appointed in vanilla battle_models.modeldb). Everything is fine except those helmets.
https://img374.imageshack.us/img374/9095/35185133co3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Then I checked the TCE. To my surprise, the uv of the helmets has been moved outside the texture! This is really weird...
https://img123.imageshack.us/img123/5224/36512916nc4.th.jpg (https://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=36512916nc4.jpg)https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1676/92808589vw6.th.jpg (https://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=92808589vw6.jpg)

My first thought is maybe it's a bug of the converter. However after taking a close look at the uv I should say there's no match shape for them in the texture! It seems as if chivalric_knights_lod0.mesh(lod1, lod2, too) uses several texture files at the same time!

This is all I did. I didn't change the model or the texture at all.

Would you please check the model if you have spare time, GOM? I'm really confused... If you can't reproduce my problem please tell me as well. I'll try again. Thanks very much!



Edit: I got the problem now. It's a tiny bug of your converter ~;p . The material of Chivalric Knights(and other similar units)' helmets should be "attachments" rather than "figure".
https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/3996/94658603bx9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[AlphaDelta1]

Thanks again GoM, KE and co for producing a piece of software that is giving us all hours of enterainment.

https://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j278/donlogan/persian_11.jpg

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Zxiang


Hi, Grumpyoldman.

I think maybe I've discovered a bug of the converter or there must be something special in vanilla mesh file.

I convert the vanilla chivalric_knights_lod0.mesh to chivalric_knights_lod0.ms3d. And I use vanilla mtw2_en_pplate_france.texture as his skin(which is appointed in vanilla battle_models.modeldb). Everything is fine except those helmets.

Then I checked the TCE. To my surprise, the uv of the helmets has been moved outside the texture! This is really weird...


My first thought is maybe it's a bug of the converter. However after taking a close look at the uv I should say there's no match shape for them in the texture! It seems as if chivalric_knights_lod0.mesh(lod1, lod2, too) uses several texture files at the same time!

This is all I did. I didn't change the model or the texture at all.

Would you please check the model if you have spare time, GOM? I'm really confused... If you can't reproduce my problem please tell me as well. I'll try again. Thanks very much!



Edit: I got the problem now. It's a tiny bug of your converter ~;p . The material of Chivalric Knights(and other similar units)' helmets should be "attachments" rather than "figure".
https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/3996/94658603bx9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

I don't know why they do this to me, every other helmet is on the figure texture :beam: . I haven't come across any others like this. Maybe it's a one off, or a maverick modeller :beam:. I'm not sure how I'll fix this in the converter, but it's easy enough to fix in Milkshape, assign the correct material to the group and drag it back to be where it should be. If the correct material is assigned in Milkshape, the converter will make the correct conversion back to M2TW coords.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Lusted]

The Chivalric Knights, and units that use the same helmets are the only ones i've seen that use a helmet texture in the attatchment texture.

[zxiang1983]

Ya, I already did that. However, draging them precisely to the correct locations one by one is not an easy job, lol ~:P

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Zxiang


Ya, I already did that. However, draging them precisely to the correct locations one by one is not an easy job, lol ~:P

If you have a look at Milkshape 1.8.1 Beta, Mete has put a lock x and lock y in the TCE which makes it easier to move coords across :beam:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

Oh man how I would love to slaughter those Ronalds! :charge:

I have been given the go-ahead to release the unpacked animations and .evt files for the modding community.

I have put them up on mediafire http://www.mediafire.com/?7ydzbziijmy
Feel free to host these files officially. The download is around 60mb and unzips to twice that.

Simply download and unzip to your data\ folder. It will extract everything to the animations folder with sub-directories. You should be able to delete your data\animations\*.dat *.idx files and then run the game with this in your config:


[util]
no_animdb = true

This should run the game directly from the animation files, bypassing the need to re-build the pack files. Deleting the pack files without using the no_animdb command should rebuild the animation files from your animation source folder.

I haven't tested this myself in a retail build and would love to know how it goes.

Caliban

[Casuir]

Thank you Caliban :2thumbsup:

Tried it out and the game definitely recompiles the database, the command switch doesnt seem to work though, the files are recompiled whether its there or not.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Caliban and Casuir


Thank you Caliban :2thumbsup:

Tried it out and the game definitely recompiles the database, the command switch doesnt seem to work though, the files are recompiled whether its there or not.

Agree with Casuir, dat and idx files are recompiled AND the cfg is autogenerated without the [util] addition.

But apart from that, this is a great step forward for modding with the TW engine :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: . We now know what's required to get new SKELETONS and animations into the engine.

With skeletons, we'll have to remember a few rules - a fighting figure (ie not mount) will require a bone_abs, a bone_torso, a bone_head, a bone_Rhand and a bone_Lhand. This is what the engine recognises for fighting, weapons, etc. Mounts will require a nominal renaming as horse ie mount_kangaroo_horse and have a bone_saddle for figure attachment, etc, etc.

Let's give a cheer for Caliban - :cheerleader: :cheerleader: :cheerleader:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

How does this affect your mesh converter GOM, will it be able to handle different skeletons?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Casuir


How does this affect your mesh converter GOM, will it be able to handle different skeletons?

It will have to be rewritten to work with any skeletons that don't match the bone hierarchy, configuration and names. But if I'm right and we can control the appearance of a figure through the cas anim files then if people use the same basic skeleton configuration (ie not adding or deducting bones or changing the hirearchy) the mesh converter will still work. Probably the first step is to get a converter to extract animations into the cas anim format. Next I can look at rewriting the mesh converter to work with non-standard skeletons.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

...Probably the first step is to get a converter to extract animations into the cas anim format. Next I can look at rewriting the mesh converter to work with non-standard skeletons.


You should be able to import your mesh into 3dsmax from Milkshape via .smd and then use Verc's script (or our official CAS exporter) to export .CAS anim files.

This is why we released the official CAS exporter but I have only heard of people having version problems with it. It seems to work fine on all of our machines here running 3dsmax7 and 8.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Caliban


You should be able to import your mesh into 3dsmax from Milkshape via .smd and then use Verc's script (or our official CAS exporter) to export .CAS anim files.

This is why we released the official CAS exporter but I have only heard of people having version problems with it. It seems to work fine on all of our machines here running 3dsmax7 and 8.

I grabbed a demo of max 7 from an old 3d mag I had lying around, got the Service Pack 1 update and loaded your plugin. I got the exact same message everybody else was getting ie incompatible version. The only thing I can think of was maybe it was written for 7.5 or Viz or relies on another plugin. I'll leave it on until the trial runs out in case anybody comes up with a solution. In the meantime I'll play with other formats, import, export, etc. We can't use Verc's exporter because it only exports the truncated anim files as found in the pack.dat file. Incidentally does your process/exporter work off bones or point helpers?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

GOM .... with your MESH tool, will you be able to re-write it to accomodate mounts etc. as well as non-standard skeletons?

The python script thing doesn't seem to be as usable as your tool, and I would much prefer to have a single tool that did it all for me, rather than multiple tools!

This is really good news for the Warhammer team though! It means I can make Dwarves, Orcs and such like using modified skeletons.

One thing I wondered though....

Would it be possible to change the base positions of the skeleton without having to completely re-write all the animations? I was wondering if there was a way to just keep the rotational changes in the animation files and apply them to a new skeleton? This way, a new skeleton could have all the same moves without masses of extra work! ( I'm just so lazy!!! )

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian


GOM .... with your MESH tool, will you be able to re-write it to accomodate mounts etc. as well as non-standard skeletons?

Yes, I'm looking at a rewrite for the converter but I want to wait until we sort out the animations etc so I can make any conversion compatible with the animations.


This is really good news for the Warhammer team though! It means I can make Dwarves, Orcs and such like using modified skeletons.

One thing I wondered though....

Would it be possible to change the base positions of the skeleton without having to completely re-write all the animations? I was wondering if there was a way to just keep the rotational changes in the animation files and apply them to a new skeleton? This way, a new skeleton could have all the same moves without masses of extra work! ( I'm just so lazy!!! )

A fine try at avoiding work, failed miserably, but nevertheless, a fine try :beam: :beam: . The anim files also include such details as, per frame, height above ground and movement across the ground. If you change any of the skeleton positions it puts these numbers out as well. You could calculate it but in the end it would be easier to load the animation into an anim prog, change the skeleton and adjust everything manually. So yes it is possible but you're going to have to manually adjust every frame anyway.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

If its not to much work grumpy would it be possible to rework the texturing code to assaign textures by co-ords rather than group type like I suggested earlier.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Casuir


If its not to much work grumpy would it be possible to rework the texturing code to assaign textures by co-ords rather than group type like I suggested earlier.

It could be done but there is then the problem, when looking at texture coords in isolation, of where does 'u' value of .5 go, is it the extreme right edge of the figure texture or the extreme left edge of the attachments texture, you could possibly end up with texture coords for one group spread over two textures. It only takes three actions to change the material for a group, it's not that difficult to move uv coords (especially now that the TCE in 1.8.1 has a lock x and lock y ability) and the converter to mesh only looks at the material when reconverting the uv coords. It would probably be more trouble than it was worth to do it that way, because I'd have to put in a check for the other uv coords for that group to make sure it was going in the right texture.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

:clown: can't blame a guy for trying :laugh4:

If the animations work like they did in RTW, then it should just be a question of adjusting the root bone start positions, and applying the samechange in translation on the Z axis to set it on the ground. The rest of hte movements are relative to this, so the actual movements could be preserved. As you say...the actual distance moved would need changing if the skeleton was a smaller unit. This adjusts their actual movement rate on the battlefield ( good ) for those short-legged units!

The main worry I had was the eventual size of the animation pack when we are done.... I reckon I need a unique set for Dwarves, one for Orcs and some odd-balls...which I hope to modify Elephant skeletons to get. The mounts have far fewer animations, and this is a BIG time saver!

Some of the animas I want, though, are simple re-scales with the bones in odentical proportion. Vercingetorix's tool allowed a 'global re-scale' of hte skeleton, which used th estandard animations with a scaled up model. Does this possibility still exist? For a 'large human' such as the Ushabti or Bone Giant, Chaos Demons and Rat Ogre, I could use such a facility. It would avoid the extra animations in the pack, and save a whole lot of duplicate animations being packed. Just a thought :sweatdrop:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian


:clown: can't blame a guy for trying :laugh4:

If the animations work like they did in RTW, then it should just be a question of adjusting the root bone start positions, and applying the samechange in translation on the Z axis to set it on the ground. The rest of hte movements are relative to this, so the actual movements could be preserved. As you say...the actual distance moved would need changing if the skeleton was a smaller unit. This adjusts their actual movement rate on the battlefield ( good ) for those short-legged units!

The main worry I had was the eventual size of the animation pack when we are done.... I reckon I need a unique set for Dwarves, one for Orcs and some odd-balls...which I hope to modify Elephant skeletons to get. The mounts have far fewer animations, and this is a BIG time saver!

Some of the animas I want, though, are simple re-scales with the bones in odentical proportion. Vercingetorix's tool allowed a 'global re-scale' of hte skeleton, which used th estandard animations with a scaled up model. Does this possibility still exist? For a 'large human' such as the Ushabti or Bone Giant, Chaos Demons and Rat Ogre, I could use such a facility. It would avoid the extra animations in the pack, and save a whole lot of duplicate animations being packed. Just a thought :sweatdrop:

Seeing we are now rebuilding the idx and dat files (Yayyy!!!!) to be used there is a beaut little facility available in descr_skeleton.txt (which is used as the basis for the building), SCALE!!!! :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: . This means that if you want to use the fs_horse animations for a small pony, you can copy the horse animations, apply a scale and rename it bw_small_pony or whatever. This has the effect (I'm assuming but it is logical) that the skeleton and all it's height above ground and movement would be scaled as well. If you have a look at fs_horse it has a scale of 1.12 or something similar applied in the descr_skeleton.txt. So if you're mainly concerned with just rescaled skeletons, the gift from Caliban of the raw anim files is really great because now we have the facility to bring scale into the engine with just editing the descr_skeleton.txt. Just be aware that if the engine finds a rescaled skeleton it has to load all the animations again so memory might be an issue if you use lots of rescaled skeletons. Moderation and planning ahead should make this a non-issue though.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

Flags are out, and people are cheering in the streets! ... well I am...and the neighbours are giving me funny looks!

The scale facility will allow us to make a couple of 'giant' skeletons, and a couple of 'large' skeletons for use with a quite a few extra units. A giant version of the mace wielder would do for Bone Giants, large Chaos Demons and possibly a few others. An intermediate version would do for Ushabti, Ogres, Rat Ogres etc. A single handed swordsman and a 2 handed axeman variant would be required.

Then, of course, there is the need for Dwarves and Orcs, and the work is done. Goblins could be done by re-scaling the Orc version.

Lots of work, but worth it!

I am assuming teh memory issue would only be a problem if we had EVERY extra animation turn up in a battle, so we would have to make sure we are thinking of the impact of the work and not make a unique skeleton for every single unit!

[alpaca]

Congratulations guys, another breakthough :smash:

[SigniferOne]

A lot more than just scale becomes easy and accessible once descr_skeleton.txt is moddable -- things like, battle combos, properly synching up how units react to one another (e.g. when precisely a unit raises his shield to block). In short, it's pure goodness.

[Caliban]

Hi Caliban
I grabbed a demo of max 7 from an old 3d mag I had lying around, got the Service Pack 1 update and loaded your plugin. I got the exact same message everybody else was getting ie incompatible version. The only thing I can think of was maybe it was written for 7.5 or Viz or relies on another plugin. I'll leave it on until the trial runs out in case anybody comes up with a solution. In the meantime I'll play with other formats, import, export, etc. We can't use Verc's exporter because it only exports the truncated anim files as found in the pack.dat file. Incidentally does your process/exporter work off bones or point helpers?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

I have only tested the plugin in full versions of 3dsmax 7 and 8. This might be the problem, I would have thought that the demo would allow you to load plugins however.

The CA .CAS exporter will export the full .cas file without being truncated. I'm pretty sure its truncated when the game builds the pack files. So if anyone can get it to work, it should be ok.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Caliban


I have only tested the plugin in full versions of 3dsmax 7 and 8. This might be the problem, I would have thought that the demo would allow you to load plugins however.

The CA .CAS exporter will export the full .cas file without being truncated. I'm pretty sure its truncated when the game builds the pack files. So if anyone can get it to work, it should be ok.

I've been able to load the ms3d and fbx plugins and they seem to work ok in the demo version. Only way to tell is to set up a quarantined machine with only OS, 3ds Max and the plugin loaded and see if it works, probably too drastic for curiosity's sake though :beam:

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

The plugin works ok for me with max 8, usually crashs on export because I cant figure out what options to select

@Caliban, does the weapon upgrade system work for values greater than 1, if I add a second level in the edb and name the group primaryactive2 will it be displayed ingame?

[SigniferOne]

In other news, Grumpy have you had any results playing around with officers in a unit? Also, is there a word on the bounding spheres and their usefulness? The initial test somebody was doing here was promising...

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi S1


In other news, Grumpy have you had any results playing around with officers in a unit? Also, is there a word on the bounding spheres and their usefulness? The initial test somebody was doing here was promising...

I haven't personally played with officers yet but somebody did post here that it was possible. I understand there is an entry you have to make to the cfg file to show officers. Also beware of using officers without the correct edu entry - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97600 .

Now the one thing I'm not sure of is where the link between General models and mesh figures is held. It doesn't seem to be in edu but captains are.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

Ahh good to hear someone has it working :)
If you are exporting a model and getting a crash, run the STL check modifier over it and make sure all vertices are welded that need to be welded. A general small weld threshold can fix some export issues.

Just a note on .CAS animations. You will see in descr_skeleton.txt that every animation has a default anim. This should be 4-5 frames of static animation with the model in its un-deformed pose (arms out our however it was rigged). All animations must have a minimum of 5 frames (I think its 4 but 5 is safe). Even if your idle is static, make sure there are atleast 5 frames in the anim. All animations must have a frame 0 that is identical to the default anim. So every animation must have the first frame (frame 0) as the base-pose. When you export you will see the option to use frame 0 as the default.


The plugin works ok for me with max 8, usually crashs on export because I cant figure out what options to select

@Caliban, does the weapon upgrade system work for values greater than 1, if I add a second level in the edb and name the group primaryactive2 will it be displayed ingame?

I couldn't tell you about the weapon upgrade system, you can try it or if you really want I could hunt around and try and find out.

[Re Berengario I]

Now the one thing I'm not sure of is where the link between General models and mesh figures is held. It doesn't seem to be in edu but captains are.


Both strat and battle general models are defined in descr_character.txt.

There you can have different "levels" and models for the strat map, but not for the battles.


type named character
(...)
faction venice
dictionary 15
strat_model southern_general
battle_model Northern_General
battle_equip gladius, chainmail shirt helmet and rectangular shield

The weapon upgrade system is a bit of a mess, you can't have higher upgrades than 1 and the missile weapons bonus displays as melee weapon bonus in the unit display window :dizzy2:.

[Casuir]

Cheers Caliban, did a few quick tests and it does look to be limited to one level of bonus for melee weapons only. Dunno if it would have been a weld issue with the exporter, it was just a strat map model I was trying to export, most likely I had something selected in the options dialogue that shouldnt have been. I'll try that when I have time, lot of other stuff on my plate atm.

[GrumpyOldMan]

HI RB


Both strat and battle general models are defined in descr_character.txt.

There you can have different "levels" and models for the strat map, but not for the battles.


type named character
(...)
faction venice
dictionary 15
strat_model southern_general
battle_model Northern_General
battle_equip gladius, chainmail shirt helmet and rectangular shield

The weapon upgrade system is a bit of a mess, you can't have higher upgrades than 1 and the missile weapons bonus displays as melee weapon bonus in the unit display window :dizzy2:.

Thanks for this, now I know where I can link new generals to factions.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

Cheers Caliban, did a few quick tests and it does look to be limited to one level of bonus for melee weapons only. Dunno if it would have been a weld issue with the exporter, it was just a strat map model I was trying to export, most likely I had something selected in the options dialogue that shouldnt have been. I'll try that when I have time, lot of other stuff on my plate atm.

Yeah I have had export crashes before, so if you want to give me a screenshot of the options you have selected, I can advise what options to use. If it does crash on export, it's normally something with the model like unwelded verts or doubled polygon faces on top of each other. The CAS exporter can be quite picky even though it looks fine in 3dsmax. I would suggest deleting duplicate faces and rebuilding the polygon if there is any. weld all verts that are on top of each other. Convert to mesh (instead of polygon) and reset x-forms and then collapse and retry an export.

Let me know if you need help when you get around to it.

Caliban

[Casuir]

I managed to get the model exported using these options:
https://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4696/optionszc6.th.png (https://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=optionszc6.png)
This is what I got ingame:
https://img503.imageshack.us/img503/4299/resultge3.th.png (https://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resultge3.png)
The actual mesh itself is resized and scaled geometry from city models that come with the game, unless the importer is doing something with the vertices they should be the same as the original model. Probably the case seeing as the script won't reimport its own exports sometimes, even though they work fine ingame.

[zxiang1983]

Hi, all.
I would like to discuss something about the bounding sphere values again.

I have dealt with various weapons and units but now I have a doubt. Does the "bounding sphere values" in the model comment really have any effect?

Once I doubled the length of a pike and then doubled all values of bounding sphere in model comment but I got no change in game. The engine still consider the pike as its original length. I also tried to change only some of the values and the result is the same.

Once I merged a swordsman and a pike, using swordsmen's bounding sphere values. And it worked fine in game! The engine recognizes the pike and the pike has its correct length, definitely not the length of a sword.

And once I made a dismounted knight templar, just deleting the lances, using knights templar's bounding sphere values. And again it's fine in game. He fought as a real sword&shield unit. The figure and an opponent never start fighting while separated.

Due to my observations(really lots of observations), changing the bounding sphere values in model comment has merely any effect in game(might be no effect at all I guess). And it turns out to be clearer and clearer that the weapon itself carries its bounding sphere value with it. When we changed the appearance of the weapon we didn't change the bounding sphere value. So engine won't recognize the changed length. When we merge the weapon with a figure the bounding sphere value comes with the weapon. So the engine will no doubt recognize the new weapon. It explains everything quite well.

The question is, is it possible for us to get access to the bounding sphere value of a certain weapon?

And I remembered that someone said he was going to make a real new weapon. What is the result in game?


Thanks for reading:grin2: .

[Ashdnazg]

I wonder if it has to do something with the spacing between the soldiers in a unit, I couldn't make it lower than a certain value (Although I tried it with only one unit).
Perhaps try to make r smaller, and then make the tight formation tighter (can't test it myself since I don't have m2tw)

[KnightErrant]

@zxiang1983 and ashdnazg
Yeah, I'm still not sure what the bounding sphere data does. I thought
I remembered within the past couple of weeks Caliban mentioning something
about it being used for projectiles but I went back a couple of thread logs
in this thread and could not find it. Some people have reported that changing
the radius affected the weapons reach but I can't confirm that because I
haven't done real definitive tests. It would be nice to get a real answer on
this.

[GubZol]

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5857/huscarlsisakca8.th.jpg (https://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=huscarlsisakca8.jpg)

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

Hi All...

Update on the latest on my front...

I have finally begun my noobie tutorial for MESH conversion to be modified for use in MilkShape (hopefully shouldn't take too long)...

I will also be doing a tut on CAS conversion to bring RTW CAS's into MilkShape to eventually be used in M2TW.

Just FYI...

Keep up the good work on animations!!!

AT

[ole-warhammer]

Sorry for posting in this forum, but do any one know how or someone who has maked a CAS reader for Rome: Total war for Wings 3d? NOT 3ds Max!!

Would be great help!

[FedeITA]

hi i have a problem with chivalry or other knights that use helmets in the attachments texture: i have all helmets assigned correctly in milkshape but when i reconvert the ms3d file to mesh it change and reassign automatically to figure.
can someone help me?
Im using milkshape 1.8.1, im merging models only with grumpy mesheditor.
thx for the help:help:
here an ingame screen:https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/4715/provacavalieriinglesiir5.th.jpg (https://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=provacavalieriinglesiir5.jpg)

[dragases1453]

Hi grumpyoldman i modified a new unit but when i try it in game it seems i assigned badly the vertex to the bones...but in milkshape seems everything ok...can i send you the unit or could you tell me how to fix it?

[Bwian]

Would really help if you posted a picture of how the model has gone wrong in game. If you just messed up a vertex, it will be easy to spot.

You might also have a duplicate vertex that isn't assigned even though it looks like it is ...

or the thing may have screwed up for another reason entirely!

I have had models go completely haywire somewhere in the process, and just had to re-import the 3DS files into MS3D and start again. Not sure why...but every once in a while I do/don;t do something essential and it screws up. I know the symptoms...so I just start over.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi


Hi grumpyoldman i modified a new unit but when i try it in game it seems i assigned badly the vertex to the bones...but in milkshape seems everything ok...can i send you the unit or could you tell me how to fix it?

I had a look but you sent the mesh file so I can't tell what you did to the ms3d file. Check all the model and group comments and see if anything pops up when you select unattached vertices. Make sure all groups have a material assigned.

GrumpyOldMan

[=Omni=]

I've also noticed a little problem with weighting - for example when my pikemen move, some parts of the model pop through the others parts. So I've repaired the weigthing in Milkhshape, checked the animation (using KE's tools) - everything seemed fine. I've exported it back to MTW and the bug is still present :(

[dragases1453]

Thanks man...i finally worked it out...and now it works properly...thanks anyway!

[r-marci]

Hello!

Sorry, but my English isn't good.

I'm a beginner in modding as you can see in the following text.

I have some problemes with mesh format.
I know there isn't any converter to make a MAX-readable (I've Studio Max 7) file from mesh, as I haven't found any plugin or script to import. So I can use only the mesh-to-ms3d converter and an other application (3D Object Converter) to convert ms3d to obj.
But when I imported the obj file to the MAX, I didn't found the "bones" to animate the modell unlike the body.
Why is it?
Doesn't the mesh format contain "bones"?

[KnightErrant]

Hi r-marci,

Actually, the .mesh file doesn't contain bones, only bone strings, text
names for the bones. The bones (or joints) are in the animation files.
The way GrumpyOldMan's converter (and mine) deal with this is we
read an extra file containing the standard skeleton for human models
(and other files for mounts or siege engines). This rigs the skeleton in
Milkshape. I have seen some people report that the fbx export from
Milkshape makes a binary file (in fbx format) that 3dsmax can read and
it has the bones in it, although there are some display problems.

I haven't kept up with this discussion but it might be something you
can try. You can export fbx from 3dsmax and then use Milkshape
to read it. Then use GrumpyOldMan's converter to finally go back to
a mesh file.

Best of luck~:) ,

KE

[r-marci]

Hi r-marci,

Actually, the .mesh file doesn't contain bones, only bone strings, text
names for the bones. The bones (or joints) are in the animation files.
The way GrumpyOldMan's converter (and mine) deal with this is we
read an extra file containing the standard skeleton for human models
(and other files for mounts or siege engines). This rigs the skeleton in
Milkshape. I have seen some people report that the fbx export from
Milkshape makes a binary file (in fbx format) that 3dsmax can read and
it has the bones in it, although there are some display problems.

I haven't kept up with this discussion but it might be something you
can try. You can export fbx from 3dsmax and then use Milkshape
to read it. Then use GrumpyOldMan's converter to finally go back to
a mesh file.

Best of luck~:) ,

KE

Thanks! :beam:

But my problem with the Milkshape is that I haven't got it! :embarassed: And as I understand I need Milkshape to work with skeletons of M2TW. This causes that I use the 3D Object Converter (It can use and convert file in many format like obj, ms3d, 3ds etc.).

Where can I find your converter?

[KnightErrant]

Hi r-marci,

If you are going to work on mostly human units, then you should
have GrumpyOldMan's converter, because it has a merge facility
for switching weapons and shields, the most common mod for units.
I THINK his latest version is here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1276

If you want to do mounts and siege engines then you need
my meshconverter, version 1.3:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=1377

The link to Milkshape is:

http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/ms3d/index.html

Milkshape is not free: you get a 30 day trial then you need to register
it for 25$. Not a bad price compared to 3dsmax.

Hope this is useful to your modeling efforts ~:) ,

KE

[r-marci]

What do you think about that I import the body to 3d Studio Max (mesh->ms3d->obj) or make a new body and add the skeleton of a unit from the RTW (That's imported with Verc's Cas Importer/Exporter). Because I can export the modificated/new body with the Cas Importer/Exporter and there's a Cas to M2TW files converter (which hasn't been tried yet :no: ).

[KnightErrant]

@r-marci,

Sorry, you went outside my area of knowledge. I know
GrumpyOldMan made a cas converter for RTW units but
I don't know anything about them. The bones are the
only show stopper I can think of. RTW units have "cloak
bones" so they need animations that work with those.
M2TW units have a slightly different skeleton so the animations
are different. GrumpyOldMan can give you a definative answer.

[Bwian]

r-marci ... I am afraid there is no effective way to work with Max right now...and I feel for you here. MS3D is nowhere near as good as Max when it comes to animation work.

Unfortunately, the CAS import/export script for max does not actually import a skeleton correctly, nor does it import animations properly. They work within it's own confines... but do not translate across to M2TW.

If you are trying to work in Max without milkshape, you will hit a few snags with what you are trying to do.

1) The skeletons in RTW are not the same as M2TW. The M2TW have clavicle bone, and no cloaks.

2) There is no guarantee that you will be able to convert the CAS file to mesh

3) There is no way to do animations this way. The only tool we have that allows us to import CAS animation files for M2TW to Max was the one released by CA .. and it has never worked for anyone as far as I know.

Not saying it can't be done ... but ther eare some real barriers to making this work

[r-marci]

So you would like to say to me that the better way is I will use Milkshape, wouldn't you?

[Bwian]

Trust me ... I wish it were otherwise ... but that is the way it is.

You may be able to find a workaround to get your stuff into Max, but I can't see any way you are going to be able to work properly that way. There is much that I would rather do in Max, but I had to go and get myself a copy of MS3D and am trying to learn more about it. I don;t model in it ... but rather use it as a converter to make models in a format that the tools we have need.

Unless someone wants to go and re-create all the stuff KnightErrant and Grumpy Old Man have done for Max, then we are stuck with what we have.

[r-marci]

Thanks for all of your answers!

I've loaded the trial version of Milkshape down! :yes:

Can you tell me about the animation system of M2TW? I would like to know what I have to do in Milkshape (after I made a new body and added skeleton to it) to have a new unit, which do everything well in the game.

Sorry to have lots of questions but the forums looks like the chaos to me in English, and there isn't any tutorial.

[Bwian]

As a start point, download GrumpyOldMan's MESH convertion tool. Take a stock model, and convert it into MS3D format. Then you canopen it in MS3D and you will see the bones and the mesh part of the model.

You can export the model as 3DS and get that into MAx for modelling, and then re-import the file as a 3DS again to Milkshape when you are done. I don't model in MS3D either...

Depending on whether you want to make the thing fit a stock skeleton, or if you want to make a skeleton that is not human in shape or proportion determines where you go next.

I am not going to be around for the next few days, but if you post back, I will pick up any questions on how you go on from there.

In terms of converting stuff and etting it working in game, I have used ALL the tools, and got stuff to work through the development stage ( thats when I spend half my time messing with models, and the other half pestering the tool-makers! ) and know pretty much exactly what to do to get these things woking well!

[KnightErrant]

Hi R-marci,

Glad to have another modeller enter the ring. I
can answer questions related to the utilities but
since I'm not a modeller myself I can't answer
Milshape questions (other than the most basic).

If you work with the Milkshape format and the
utilities and have need of other capabilities, please
post them here and I can see if I can provide what
you need.

Welcome and happy modelling!~;)

KE

[r-marci]

Hi R-marci,

Glad to have another modeller enter the ring. I
can answer questions related to the utilities but
since I'm not a modeller myself I can't answer
Milshape questions (other than the most basic).

If you work with the Milkshape format and the
utilities and have need of other capabilities, please
post them here and I can see if I can provide what
you need.

Welcome and happy modelling!~;)

KE

Thank you very much! :beam:

What do you think which is better? Shall I modificate the original models of M2TW or should I make total new bodies for the mod? :help:

[Herkus]

Thank you very much! :beam:

What do you think which is better? Shall I modificate the original models of M2TW or should I make total new bodies for the mod? :help:
Well it depends on units which you are going to make. Modifying original models will probably help you to know the whole implementation process faster and tackle early errors.

[Bwian]

Personally, I just looked at a few models in MS3D, and then tried to put my own mesh in game. You will need to get to grips with the whole process ..start to finish, including rigging the mesh for animations at some point, so I did it from the start.

If you were working with RTW before, and are comfortable with that process, dive in at the deep end. We will make sure you don't drown :laugh4:

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Grumpy,

Grumpy, long time no talk to you...

I have the week off and so I am diving back into model modification.

I am bringing in a model from RTW and trying to bring it into M2TW. I have solved all my headaches except vertex bone assignments.

I have looked over the whole model, everything is OK except when I SelAssigned bone_pelvis and the whole Body_400 lights up. I need to isolate this to only the pelvic vertices. How do I isolate the bone_pelvis to the vertices located in the pelvic region of the mesh figure.

I know that I am missing something very simple here. :inquisitive:

BTW, How are things with you???!!!!

AT

[GubZol]

Hello.
Hungarian skiner am. Apology, but my knowledge of English not the best one.
I model small one, and would be some question of mine.
I can ring changes on the models, but I should do a nose protector to a helmet, and I would ask for a little help. If somebody would be able to relate it, or would be able to help, I would say thanks to it for it!
The nose protector would be needed for a helmet like that, than the longbowmen is
I say thank you for your help!

[r-marci]

Hello.
Hungarian skiner am. Apology, but my knowledge of English not the best one.
I model small one, and would be some question of mine.
I can ring changes on the models, but I should do a nose protector to a helmet, and I would ask for a little help. If somebody would be able to relate it, or would be able to help, I would say thanks to it for it!
The nose protector would be needed for a helmet like that, than the longbowmen is
I say thank you for your help!

Hello GubZol!
Have you been given my private message in TW Online?

Csak azért kérdezem angolul, mert itt így stílusosabb!

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Grumpy...

I got it figured out. This is what I had to do.

I found out in order to free up the vertices from the bone_pelvis, I had to clear it (using the "Clear" button under the joints tab, since the entire figure body "Body_400" (not including the helmet, weapons etc.) was in one group.

I also went through all the joints on a working model and selected each one that would be in relation to it (seeing which vertices belonged to each joint) and took a screen shot of each one. This helped me later as I assigned the vertices to the correct bones.

I went back through all the vertices associated with Body_400 and reassigned them as they should be. When I brought them into the game they were fixed.

@ Gubzol
Forgive me, but I had a hard time following your post. But let me take a shot at this...:sweatdrop:

I think that you are wanted to add a nose protector to a helmet on a longbowmen model.

If this is what you want to do. Add your nose protector in the model and then add it to the same bone type under the Joints Tab in MilkShape. I assume it would be bone_head, as most of the helmets are assigned under the bone_head.

In addition, before you do the action noted above..., it doesn't hurt to add the nose guard to the helmet group. In order to do this, add your nose piece to the helmet (just move it into place), select the nose guard and the helmet and then press the ReGroup button under the Groups tab in MilkShape. It is not necessary to do this particular section, but it does clean things up a bit.

I do hope the helps.

AT

[GubZol]

Thanks for the help, but I have another question.
My question is: how could I make a nose protector or how could I "steal" it from a model?

[Bwian]

taking it from another model is actually just as hard as making it from scratch in MS3D. You would need to copy the part from a model that has the bit you want, paste it onto the new model and merge it with the helmet. Then you need to assigne the vertices to the 'head' bone so it will move with the helmet. Finally, you would need to re-map the UV co-ordinates so they picked up the right bit of texture from the texture file for the longbowman. Otherwise, your part would not display correctly.

I would suggest you start with a download of hte trial version of MS3D and read a few tutorials on the basics of modelling. Things shoul start to get a bit clearer that way.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Gubzol

Very long here...

That is actually not hard at all (just involved). Once you go through it once successfully, you should become a pro at it. I do it all the time, "kit-bashing" models together. I am currently working on a major bashed model that is essentially a fictional Austrian Napoleonic musketeer bashed with pieces from over five different models... (took me a day to put together and get working...)

Now what this is going to require is some exploration, patience and learning on your part. I had some very nice people here (GrumpyOldMan and KE) help me out to get me started, but I had to do a lot of stuff on my own, until I messed up some things major and Grumpy had to fix it for me. It took me awhile to get it through my thick head what I needed to do.

What you need to do is make sure you have the MilkShape program (at least this is what I use because I cannot afford 3dsmax...) You also need Grumpy's mesh converter/merger. If you do not already have these let me know and I can show where to get them, or some else can too.

Follow the instructions on Grumpy's converter to convert one of your meshes from the game... To get the nose piece I think some of the eastern European units have these...

MAKE SURE YOU COPY YOUR MESHES TO A SAFE PLACE SO YOU DO NOT OVERWRITE ANYTHING!! :laugh4:

Obtaining your "nose-piece" from an existing M2TW mesh
After this you should be able to bring your converted ms3d into MilkShape and view it. This is what I do. I go through and delete everything except for the group that has the piece I want. The group in this case would be the helmet. Now go under your Model tab, use the Select button and do this by vertex or face. You will see once you do this what a vertex or face is. Begin to delete portions of the helmet until all you have left is the nose piece. save this as nose_piece_01 or something you can recognize it.

It also helps to go under the Groups tab and select your nose piece and ReName it.

Save your file and now on to the next step...

Merging your nose piece onto a longbowman helmet
Now this requires you to have converted the longbowman mesh for your merge.

Follow Grumpy's instructions on Merging and your will want to merge the nose piece into all the "lod" models of the longbowmen. This could be 3 or 4 "lod" you will need to merge the nose piece on to (longbowman_lod0, lod1, lod2, etc...)... by the way these will be located in the en_peasant_padded folder.

You will have to save your newly merged file under a new file name as you cannot overwrite your existing file.

Adding the nose piece to the longbowmen model in MilkShape
Now open up your newly merged file in MilkShape. Most likely your nose_piece is floating around in space some where. Move it towards your helmet and try to match up some of your vertices on both models. Once this is done, your will now need to load your texture under the Materials tab. You will need to investigate what texture this is. Most likely the helmet is under the attachments portion of the Materials. Look at the battle_models.modeldb to find out which texture this is. The attachment texture can be found under the attachmentsets folder in the unit_models folder...:sweatdrop:

The following may be done in multiple ways, I have done in two different ways, both of which have worked. It will explain the "cleanest".

Go to Groups tab, select the helmet and the nose piece, then select ReGroup. Then, go to the Materials tab, and select attachments, and then assign (all these buttons your should find under their corresponding tabs).

Go to Joints, with helmet still selects and assign it to the bone_head.

Open up the Texture Coordinate Window found under the Window tab in MilkShape. If your new helmet is still selected you should see a version of it appear with the nose piece off in space and both look as if they have been squashed into 2D. Go to the right side and remap your new helmet with the right or left, as most of the helmets in M2TW. Now move your helmet over its corresponding texture. YOU MAY NOT HAVE TO DO THIS. it may already show up on it proper texture region.

For the nose-piece, this is what I would suggest. Select the vertices (IN THE TEXTURE COORDINATE WINDOW) and just move them up over your helmet texture. This way they will have the proper metal texture. Again, there are many ways to do this. Your could also rescale the 2D in the Texture Coordinate window and just move it over a metal piece. Its not the best, but in game they will still have metal helmets.

Everything should be ready to go. (remember your will have to do this for every lod {0,1,2, and 3}.

Another note here. Make a new helmet already prepared as above and then merge it into each model lod. This way you don't have to repeat these endless steps for each lod. Your helmet would be prepared in such a way to be merged into multiple models.

Convert your ms3d with new helmet and convert back to mesh
... and load it into the game.

Now Gubzol, I have left some more simpler parts out and this is by no means a complete tutorial, but might as well be. If your run into problems just post and I or someone else can help you. And remember, be patient, but once you grasp the fundamentals of this, you will take off. (Also sorry for not posting images... we may have to do this...)

If you get "stiff man syndrome" in your model it will be most likely that your vertices are not assigned to the right bone, make sure for this helmet it is bone_head.

Gubzol, if you are able to get through this.. I know you are struggling with english, my hat is off to you.

Again, I know I have probably left some parts out, (as I was in a hurry), but please post if you do not understand something.:beam:

AT

Edit:
Correction on the location of the helmets, they are on the en_peasant_padded not on the attachments texture... sorry about that.

Really it doesn't matter. Most of the textures have some kind of metal texture in it. You can rescale your UV coord over any of these to get the desired effect you want.

By the way, I am no god!!! :laugh4: Just an obessed Total War freak who not only loves the games, but also loves modifying them...:beam:

[GubZol]

I say thank you for it nicely Andromachus Theodolus!!!
You are the bigest one! Finally somebody, who wants to help really!!! You are wery greatfull!!
You are a god!!!! Thank you very much!!!!

[KnightErrant]

Wow, AT that was a great post! You have
really got the modelling through Milkshape down.
Hat's off!:bow:

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@ KE

Thanks for your kind words...

I guess GubZol has helped me leaps and bounds in getting this tutorial together.

I can take what's here and polish it up to put under the tutorial section.

Below is my last project, This is a "kit bashed" model and textures with parts drawn form several existing popular mods of RTW, of which many will recognize. This unit represents a later era unit in my mod I am making...

https://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5592/kitbashing101uu7.th.jpg (https://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kitbashing101uu7.jpg)

For anyone who cares or worries... these pieces are not my original work, but parts pieced together from various models and M2TW models and textures... a chimera of sorts...:inquisitive:


AT

[Megalos]

Nice tutorial AT!

I have a question for you (or anybody else who knows):

How do I assign multiple textures to the part of the model?

i.e 4 different armour textures for 1 body model, like they show up in game as having?


thanks

Mega

[Alletun]

@Megalos
you duplicate the body model several times. for instance:

In milkshape you have a body model called "Body 1", you select it and duplicate it 2 times so you have a "Body 02" and a "Body 03". The mesh is the same, but for each new body you move the UV map to a different texture.
then in the comment for Body 1 you write:
Body
Body 1
0

for body 02 you write:
Body
Body 02
0

for body 03 you write:
Body
Body 03
0

The game will now choose between 1 of the 3 body models in game, and therefore also 1 of 3 different textures.

i hope that answered your question

[r-marci]

Maybe, it is strange for you but I don't know, just think that the different of the 4 mesh file of a unit is the elaboration (or detail) of the models (by the number of polygons, vertices), isn't?

Furthermore, where can I manage weapons to be primary or secondary?

[Megalos]

@Megalos
you duplicate the body model several times. for instance:

In milkshape you have a body model called "Body 1", you select it and duplicate it 2 times so you have a "Body 02" and a "Body 03". The mesh is the same, but for each new body you move the UV map to a different texture.
then in the comment for Body 1 you write:
Body
Body 1
0

for body 02 you write:
Body
Body 02
0

for body 03 you write:
Body
Body 03
0

The game will now choose between 1 of the 3 body models in game, and therefore also 1 of 3 different textures.

i hope that answered your question

Thankyou, that has cleared it up some-what!

Mega

[GubZol]

Hello!
Somebody would be able to tell it to me yet that they are us the alpha may be the trouble with my channel?
I created a Viking helmet from Latikon helmet, but vainly draw the alpha channel, is not willing to cover the surplus... Im Milkshape works, but does not work in the game.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@r-marci

For primary and secondary weaponry.

Go to Group button

Comments button.

In the Comments window, you will want to type the following for a primary weapon (like a pike for the pikeman) and for a secondary a sword or axe...

primaryweapon0 EDIT: primaryactive
pike_01
0

Note: a / may be used in place of a 0, I have not seen any difference ... yet...


Secondary weapons will be as such:

secondaryweapon0 EDIT: secondaryactive
sword_01
0

Now let's get more advanced, if you have upgrades for weapons, where the actual weapon model and/or texture change for a more finely crafted weapon just add a 1 after the primary and secondary like so...


primaryweapon1 EDIT: primaryactive
pike_01
0

secondaryweapon1 EDIT: secondaryactive
sword_01
0

@Gubzol
Forgive me, but I am having a hard time following you. I think you are having an issue getting the Latinkon helmet you added to a viking model mapped right on its texture??? Am I headed down the right direction? let me know. Also, you can post a pic of it, maybe we all can see what the issue is and help you out that way? Just trying to help

AT

[r-marci]

Andromachus
Thanks very much! It's a great help!

But the Comments of the weapons of an original M2TW-Model (Byzantine Cavalry) have the following:

primaryactive0
cav composite bow_49
0

Or:

secondaryactive0
sword secondary_3
0

Is there any difference between primaryactive/secondaryactive and primaryweapon/secondaryweapon?

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@r-marci

Oops...
My fault, yes you are right...

primaryactive0 or 1

secondaryactive0 or 1

Sorry about that!!!

EDIT:
A note on weapon quality, you would most likely have upgrades (ug) up to ug3, I would assume, as you can have ug's in armor up to three. Unlike armor, the weapons would be free from quality increase requirements noted in battlemodel.modeldb and the export_descr_unit. Though I have not tried this... Thus, if you wished as an example, pike_militia could carry around fine rapiers for their ug3 sword? The possibilities for units could be endless.

AT

[GubZol]

@Gubzol
Forgive me, but I am having a hard time following you. I think you are having an issue getting the Latinkon helmet you added to a viking model mapped right on its texture??? Am I headed down the right direction? let me know. Also, you can post a pic of it, maybe we all can see what the issue is and help you out that way? Just trying to help

AT

I say thank you for it, but I solved it some other way already.
But that the alpha channel measured was out of order on the previous, I do not know it.

[Csatadi]

Hi,
I used Milkshape and GrumpyOldman's converter to mod a unit. I removed all the hats, shield and secondary weapon and inserted another weapon, a lance following Zxiang's tutorial. I edited modeldb, too:

hungarian_nobles 1 4 60 unit_models/_Units/LB_Plain_Fancy/hungarian_nobles_lod0.mesh 121 60 unit_models/_Units/LB_Plain_Fancy/hungarian_nobles_lod1.mesh 900 60 unit_models/_Units/LB_Plain_Fancy/hungarian_nobles_lod2.mesh 2500 60 unit_models/_Units/LB_Plain_Fancy/hungarian_nobles_lod3.mesh 6400 1 7 hungary 73 unit_models/_Units/LB_Plain_Fancy/textures/LB_plain_fancy_hungary.texture 72 unit_models/_Units/LB_Plain_Fancy/textures/LB_plain_fancy_normal.texture 48 unit_sprites/hungary_Hungarian_Nobles_sprite.spr 1 7 hungary 60 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Slavic_hungary_diff.texture 60 unit_models/AttachmentSets/Final Slavic_hungary_norm.texture 0 1 5 Horse 11 MTW2_HR_Bow 18 MTW2_HR_Non_Shield 1 19 MTW2_HR_Bow_Primary 1 18 MTW2_Spear_Primary

But the unit is very strange, legs and the new weapon are invisible and arms are in Jesus position. Animations don't work. Other things are ok.
Milkshape shows the unit to be ok.
What may be the problem?

Is KnightErrant's converter better? I downloaded it but where can I find a description to it. I don't know python.

[Alletun]

here's some things that you can check:

1) all groups in milkshape should have a comment. eg:
Arms
Arms01
0

2) all faces must be assigned to a bone. go to the joints tab and click "Draw vertices with bone color". if there's any gray faces you must assign them to a bone.

[Csatadi]

I think the problem should be something else. I didn't modified the body, arms, heads and legs.
I made the process again with another unit and made ONLY a weapon change. Result is the same. Invisible legs, and arms are horizontal.
I could understand everything but invisible legs???

Maybe it cannot handle spears as secondary weapons?

EDIT: I did you said. Now the whole unit is invisible. :-(
I have milkshape 1.8.1b.
I wasn't able to merge with GrumpyOldman's converter because it crashed at every try.
I used this comment:
Axe
Axe01
0

[Bwian]

For a weapon, the lines must be:

primaryactive0
whatever you called your weapon
0

You can't call the group 'axe' and have it work correctly as a weapon. Secondary weapons should be

Secondaryactive0
whatever you called your weapon
0

The secondary/primary bit are used to identify the primary and seconday weapons.

[GubZol]

I think the problem should be something else. I didn't modified the body, arms, heads and legs.
I made the process again with another unit and made ONLY a weapon change. Result is the same. Invisible legs, and arms are horizontal.
I could understand everything but invisible legs???

Maybe it cannot handle spears as secondary weapons?

EDIT: I did you said. Now the whole unit is invisible. :-(
I have milkshape 1.8.1b.
I wasn't able to merge with GrumpyOldman's converter because it crashed at every try.
I used this comment:
Axe
Axe01
0
Helló Csatádi!
I believe it I can help a compatriot of mine!
Whole I am successful well recently im Milkshape and im GrumpiOldMan's converter...
I help with pleasure in Hungarian if you believe it...

[Csatadi]

Thanks, it seems the converter works bad on my comp.
For example Milkshape crashes when I want to open a merged ms3d file.

[SigniferOne]

I've got a problem -- the units are invisible when loaded in the game.

I've been going through many pages of this thread trying a solution to this, but after page 14 I stopped to write this.

Has anyone had experience with invisible models inside the game?

Here is the screenshot:
http://img27.picoodle.com/img/img27/6/10/29/f_screenm_0f9c0aa.jpg

All the groups seem like they're properly assigned in Milkshape. I only have 4 groups specified, Head, Body, primaryactive0, and shield0. From what GOM said you only need 3 groups anyway, body, weapon, and shield, so I am good to go. Yet when loading up, the guy is entirely invisible in-game.

Any suggestions?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi S1


I've got a problem -- the units are invisible when loaded in the game.

I've been going through many pages of this thread trying a solution to this, but after page 14 I stopped to write this.

Has anyone had experience with invisible models inside the game?


All the groups seem like they're properly assigned in Milkshape. I only have 4 groups specified, Head, Body, primaryactive0, and shield0. From what GOM said you only need 3 groups anyway, body, weapon, and shield, so I am good to go. Yet when loading up, the guy is entirely invisible in-game.

Any suggestions?

There are quite a few reasons for invisibility, have a look at:-

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83291

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124824&highlight=invisible

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=95281&highlight=invisible

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=114855&highlight=invisible

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[SigniferOne]

GOM, indeed after a lot of figuring out I realized that the joints weren't given 100% weight as you specified they must. But I was using the latest milkshape and latest version of your tool. Anyhow it's all sorted out now, really glad you're still around and visiting our forums.

[Monkwarrior]

Any possibility of having a tutorial about how to export .cas models (from a RTW mod) to .mesh models? :help:

I've requested the same in this nice tutorial:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90169

I've been trying to export one model from my own mod, but the game doesn't charge and tells me that an unexpected error occurred. :oops:

My general doubts:
- What to do with tga.dds textures. Is it necessary to resize them?
- What happens with lods. Can only one model be used as 4 lods? Is it necessary to change the name?
- What happens with cloaks? Most of the models in my mod have it. :inquisitive:

Again: :help:

[SigniferOne]

What's one to do with this again?

https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1324/problemku0.th.jpg (https://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=problemku0.jpg)

Why are all the triangles pointing to some center point at the bottom? This isn't my first conversion from CAS to M2TW, and all the rest went without a hitch, but this one seems completely screwed up.

[Alletun]

Have you checked the comments, bone assignments etc.?
If your comments turn out to be ok, then try to assign all the faces to the pelvis bone, test that (the model should be in base pose) and then re-assign the faces to their bones.