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I really want the native insight about this after seeing Obama's favor about the topic as well.
Are American politicians really craving for "confirming the truth" or is a matter of acquiring whopping Armenian votes ?
This is not an Armenian Issue debate. Please.
P.S. Can one of the mods edit the topic into "Armenian Votes or Not ?" please? It seems biased this way. My bad.
Could you post a link or an article so's we can understand what you're talking about?
Done. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Is there a large Armenian vote base in the US?
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/450388.asp
"Barack Obama, in his letter delivered to Ken Hachikian, the chief of the instituton named ANCA, said that "I am in favor of your views toward the necessity of the events occured between 1915-1923 during the reign of Ototman Empire recognized as a genocide by USA". Obama continued "We have to recognize this tragic truth. There is no excuse to why Bush government did not and I will keep up with my efforts for the governors to change their attitude"Quote:
WASHINGTON - Barack Obama, Amerika Ermeni Ulusal Komitesi (ANCA) adlı kuruluşun yöneticisi Ken Hachikian’a gönderdiği mektupta, “Osmanlı İmparatorluğu döneminde 1915 ile 1923 arasında meydana gelen olayların ABD tarafından soykırım olarak tanınması gerektiği yönündeki görüşünüze katılıyorum” dedi. Obama, “Bu trajik gerçeği tanımalıyız. Bush yönetiminin bunu tanımamasının özrü yok ve yönetimin tutumunu değiştirmesi için çaba göstermeye devam edeceğim” dedi.
I see such support and promise from every USA president candidate every now and then. I remember Hillary Clinton (although never made it to being a candidate) and Al Gore acting the same way. That's why I wanted to know what the cause really is.
Probably related with Turkey and the EU, EU wants Turkey to say it, and the conservatives are the ones so much in favor of an EU with Turkey. Armenian votes, how many can there be?
Ah yes, seriously, any statistics regarding the population of Armenian originated US citizens ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
P.S. Thanks, BG. :bow:
Lefteyenine, has it occurred to you that people could hold certain opinions about what happened back then without actually having met an Armenian or a Turk?
Hrm. I did not meet a Jew nor a German indeed. However thinking that it was one of your relatives suffering in a gas chamber, you can only empathy with Jews.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenring
When you are surrounded by a certain lobby, and when it is politics, sounds dubious though. That's why I wanted American insight.
Assuming you were mocking me here, even if there are a lot they are likely to be very centralised and only a force locally.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
I wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
When did I get this irrelevantly evilish aura ?
To be honest there isnt a lot of data on it. I took a look at the US census site but armenian isnt an ethnicity choice on the census.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
So there is no way to say definatively what the stats are, this site states 500,000 to 2,000,000 but its clearly an estimate and perhaps bias.
Regarding your questions about Obama, this seems to be a real easy foriegn policy position. We recognized armenia in the early 90's and if I recall it wasnt at the compliments of the turkish. Essentially, its a pretty solid and well treaded "safe" foriegn policy subject for U.S. domestic consumption.
I think it has little to do with the international issues LEN, not that you were desiring to go down that road, but its a what we call in the states a slam dunk. domestically, its a non contreversial position that dosent wrankle to many international feathers, yet adhere's to the mainstream beliefs of the U.S. electorate.
If I had to guess, I would say that some, oh, let's say, 385,488 Americans would indicate either full or partial Armenian ancestry at a census. Depending on definition, most estimates put the number of Americans of Armenian ancestry anywhere between half and two million.
Armenian-Americans date back to Jamestown. One Armenian made it there already in 1618. Where he adopted the amusing but commendably convenient name 'Martin the Armenian'.
:book:
Like the universe or Turkish national pride, American obsession with race and ancestry is infinite:Quote:
I took a look at the US census site but armenian isnt an ethnicity choice on the census.
Census
Sorry my bad it looked like a 'yeah right' the way it was put down, and it is the backroom :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Keep rocking mia muca :balloon2:
FWIW, Chicago has a very large Armenian population, and Obama came up through the ranks in Chicago. So there may be a little local flavor to this issue as well.
True story: When I was a teen in Chicago, I asked for a Turkish Coffee in an Armenian restaurant. The fact that I was a kid helped to prevent them from kicking me to death.
Well Louis has more time on his hands then I do, bravo. Not only that but it sets up a rare circumstance here at the backroom of the org, something so rare that very few posters are capable of doing it, so it must be done in bold and special font.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
I was wrong
Now that we have that out of the way, LEN the link louis provides states 358k which is a very small % hence my prior posts position.
So 358k of which has also a portion unable to vote seem insignificant to care for their votes.
Then only the other option remains ?
I believe the Allfather pretty much hit the nail on the head... it's a nonissue, sounds-good, everyone's behind it kinda thing. Plus I believe (not know, or think, just believe/hope) that Obama is actually trying to take a stance on issues that he feels are morally, ethically and logically correct.
Louis is always right about America. :book:Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
I just knew there would be a meticulous record of the number of Armenians. It's what Americans do. I know America better than you do. ~;p
Oh alright. We simply searched simultanously, then posted almost at the same time. Sheer coincidence. I wasn't searching or posting to correct you. Then when I was done writing I saw your post and edited in a link.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
For the record Louis I dont mind if you correct me when I am wrong. As to your knowledge about america I find you remarkable intune to some of the cultural subtleties for a foriegner. On top of that your usually pretty even handed when you dole out your judgements.
Sadly your often lazy and what I believe to be aloof, which often translates into arrogance. Your still alright in my book (for now:wiseguy:) so correct away.
I don't think it is to do much with an Armenian lobby or massive voting block, LEN. The Armenian Genocide has become something of a moral benchmark, a measurement by which politicians can show their moral compass to their electorate. It is this moral yardstick, more than any obsessing over Anatolian history per se, that makes it an issue. It's somewhat of a free pass.
And it pisses of the Turks. In public opinion, semi-authoritarian, semi-militaristic hotheads, so you look cool irritating and defying them. Plus, Turks won't fly airplanes into buildings nor blame and hate the West for everything so they are not noble people 'who are simply misunderstood' and are therefore not entitled to a relativistic approach to their history.
Which is not to say that I disagree. I do believe in an Armenian Genocide, and I do believe Turkey could do with a more relaxed and less uptight atmosphere about history and nationhood etc, but I won't go over all that again here.
And I love you too, Odin! I'm just here for grabbing a few pints and talking rubbish with you fine lot. :gathering:Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
And I'm not aloof, just an insufferable snob! Not through (lack of) upbringing or inability to see my own limitations, but through conscious decision. Snobbery, vanity of vanities! For all is vanity! How else to endure the briefness of our existence, if not through vanity! Through laughing death and eternity in the face by embracing the vanity of it all! It's not you, but mortality I am arrogantly aloof to. :sweatdrop:
https://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8325/vanitymg4.jpg
Can't say I've yet seen a serious history book yet which denies the atrocities. Everyone agrees, except Turkey. Can't really see the point in denial - though it has served well in keeping the issue bottled up for a long, long time. But why bother? Every nation has it's stains, certainly in that time period, what exactly would the damage be in acknowledging this one? Most nations have come out all the stronger, and come across as more trustworthy, for facing their past. Not doing so implies doubts in the strength and solidarity of the Turkish state, and an unwillingness to face those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
If you're eager on the topic, open one. I'll be right there.Quote:
This is not an Armenian Issue debate. Please.
P.S. Wonderful pic, Louis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Now that has been shown that Armenians voters aren't a significant percentage of the US, it seemed discussion had shifted to the 'confirming the truth' side of things and what could be achieved by doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
My suggestion was that Obama sees it as time to confront a valuable ally over a potentially divisive issue with other allies (Armenia, and the EU).
But perhaps I'm falling into the same trap a lot of others do with Obama - projecting my own hopes onto what is essentially a political mirror? ~;)
No it did not. "This or that" type discussions aim to see which one is actual and the supporting views such as this one:Quote:
Now that has been shown that Armenians voters aren't a significant percentage of the US, it seemed discussion had shifted to the 'confirming the truth' side of things and what could be achieved by doing so.
Still, however, if you want more of the "truth", I'm happy to accompany with the opposing side in a new topic. Thank you.Quote:
My suggestion was that Obama sees it as time to confront a valuable ally over a potentially divisive issue with other allies (Armenia, and the EU).
But perhaps I'm falling into the same trap a lot of others do with Obama - projecting my own hopes onto what is essentially a political mirror? ~;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
I suspet this is more of a campaigning thing, trying to tie votes not just from Armenians, but sympathizers or those who just agree.
If you were wondering, "During the United States 2000 Census, 385,488 Americans indicated either full or partial Armenian ancestry"
Hrm, now that's another point of view that makes political sense, thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishFish
No problem. Just an off topic question: Do you believe the Armenian Genocide occured?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
I've pretty much debated this issue in the Org. Actually it was my first serious topic here 3 years ago. Several times here and even in Monastery too.
Believing in that my reply won't be further discussed, just for your information: No I exactly do not.