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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7630969.stm
A 22 year old chef student killed yesterday 9 students and an teacher in town of Kauhajoki, Finland.It seems these horrible things have came here to stay after last years school shooting in Jokela.:shame:
A major tragedy. It was a bit unnerving that no finnish poster put it up yesterday. Such a waste of life :no:
He looks a bit like you, Kage. Something you want to tell us, perhaps?
yes, I shamelessly stole that from mouza...
Well im still alive.He is not.:strawman3:Well all joking aside.I think these things are very alarming and here the discussion is going heavily in direction of banning small arms, while i dont think it is because of gunlaws that these people are dead.I think the problem is in our society.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
How 'bout the combination of vodka and saunas? :inquisitive:
How so? I don't think you can prevent things like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
Yeah, I was shocked to read that in the news yesterday -- my condolences to the victims and their families. :shame: I always have a hard time picturing tragic events like that occurring in Scandinavia for some reason, even though I know it's not an isolated incident.
I second Fragony's question: Why do you think that? There's always going to be disturbed individuals with violent intentions, no matter what you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
Well, it didn't take place in Scandinavia...Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
I don't know what to feel about it. I've grown apathetic to this kind of news and I was neither surprised nor shocked when I read the headlines. I have no relatives in that part of Finland from what I know, so...
I un-second Fragony's question!
Social choices of every society go a long way to explaining why tragedies like this happen. Not guns or an abundance of disturbed individuals are the reason for the difference in levels of violence between South Africa and Iceland, but society at large. Compare, for example, a good road network. A few tragic random occurences, or individual maniacs, are always the direct cause for car accidents. But a good road network, build for safety, goes a long way to preventing car accidents. Better roads mean less accidents. More and better law enforement mean more law-abiding drivers. This means less road rage, which leads to a more respectful driving culture. Etcetera. Society always has a choice.
Finland is not part of Scandinavia...
Finland needs to have another look at their gun laws...
Oh well, for every school shoot out, I noticed that the bullies play a bit more nice for a while... Not everything is bad.
I heard on the radio that the Police had him in for questioning the day before the shooting because of some disturbing youtube videos where he shoots with his Walter P-22 gun and displaying the slogan : "You will die next"...
Not much unlike Pekka last year.
I guess there will not be a third time. :stare:
It's bound to happen in Scandinavia sooner or later anyway. :juggle2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
If you are going to treat it as a social problem you are only inviting more nutjobs to make a statement. It isn't, just a crybaby and a copycat. Feel sorry for the finnish must be very traumatising to have this happening twice in such a small time.
This has to do with the society at large nothing to do with guns. I can't speak for Finland but here in America I have come to the conclusion that our society makes this happen mainly by the way we retard emotional expression esp. at a young age. I dont understand how people think legal firearms make people go crazy. It doesn't make senseQuote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
My condolences to the families of the victims.
What kind of a sad narcisist do you have to be to show off your gun skilz on youtube before killing several people randomly and cut your miserable life short before people will hold you accountable?
I don't think that there's something specific about Finland that encourages these kinds of things (except lots of guns) and that it's probably copycat behaviour from TV and internet, but that's just my guess.
Well, if a guy is making threatening videos on the net, then I find it a bitt odd that the law allows him to keep his weapon...
He was in for questionng by the police ebcause of the videos, but they had no right to take his weapon.
See what happened?
So in this particular case, it is (among other things) a question about the law itself.
While I do agree about that society bit... well, to use the words of Bill Hicks: "There is no connection between having a gun and shooting somebody with it... And you'd be a fool and a communist to make one."Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
I can see one connection... if you dont have a gun, you cant shoot anyone...Quote:
Originally Posted by Innocentius
Well, I would be perfectly fine with guns easily accessible to all should there be some very strict background/mental state checks of some sort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
But.....the government, as inefficient and mostly incompetent it is, will never be able to enforce it and it is too easy to buy guns illegally so many would say just outlaw guns outright.
Well, in China (communist gov), the homicide rate with guns is EXTREMELY low because almost no one has guns. Only higher level police and the army has guns. Other than organized crime, most criminals only use knifes and crowbars and stuff like that which can only do so much damage.Quote:
"There is no connection between having a gun and shooting somebody with it... And you'd be a fool and a communist to make one."
Louis makes a good point about society.
Decades ago we never had this in America. And we had kids legally bring guns to school for target practice and hunting after school
But it's not some BS sort of 'its society's fault because they failed these kids' - society didn't hold these kids accountable enough and didn't scorn and deride the pathetic idea of killing others before killing yourself.
The media hurts too; they give every single killer the fame that helps to attract more.
The names of these killers should never be spoken, no images should ever be shown or analysis into their lives proclaimed, no writings of theirs should be released to the public, no grave should be allowed them. Their lives should be blanked out so that they have less lasting impact on the world than a minimum wage janitor.
CR
I agree with you but I think what's missing from this argument is that kids don't do it just for fame. I think that kids who have already given up and feel like they will never not feel so angry and helpless and belittled and hopeless then figure well, if I'm going to die anyway, maybe some infamy isn't so bad. Especially if violence can be directed at the people who (rightly or wrongly) they consider responsible for whatever they are feeling. So, as long as society tolerates things like bullying, pecking orders, the alienation and systematic mistreatment of "black sheep" kids in the classroom (nerds misfits whatever) and neighbors, friends, family members and community figures (teachers coworkers etc.) ignore child abuse and child neglect on the part of parents (and it's VERY rare for seriosuly NO ONE to ever know that a child is being abused-- much more likely several people knew but didn't want to get involved) then chiding the shooters after the fact will never solve or stop anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
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It's a shame indeed. The first bit of news on the e-papers in the morning (14 PM ~;p).
My condolences to Suomi. :bow:
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The saddest part is that the police had brought him in for questioning and then determined they had no reason to hold him or confiscate his weapons and let him go.
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:no:
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Well, sounds like some Finnish politicians want to ban handguns, which is missing the point.
If the next nutjob uses a shotgun, what will they do then? And if the next guy uses a rifle, will they ban those as well? And when another makes a homemade bomb, will they ban cars so noone has reason to get gasoline?
Koga is right in that more needs to be done to crack down on bullying and child abuse.
CR
Only to have the same thing happening in the less protective realm that is profesional life, you will always have bullies and victims c'est la vie. Take it for what it is, it's just a copycat. Dead one now. bye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Yeah, I wondered about that. I figured that at the very least, they would've confiscated his firearms. :dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Well, Finns are finno-ugrians (just like Hungarians, Karelians, Estonians etc.) while Swedes, Danes and Norwegians are germanics (just like Germans). Scandinavia is a geographic entity consisting of the peninsula formed by Sweden and Norway, and really has nothing to do with ethnicity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
They had no legal support to do so, and if you're answer to that is "But still", that leads us into the debate on what rules should be broken and what rules shouldn't be broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
On the way back from work I heard they had apprehended a Swedish 16 year old for the possesion of illegal weapons and broadcasting hate videos on youtube (In Sweden). They are not taking any chances with copycats.Quote:
Yeah, I wondered about that. I figured that at the very least, they would've confiscated his firearms. :dizzy2:
I also heard that the police officer that had questioned this madman the day before he killed 10 people and let him go and let him keep his weapons are under psycriatic help. Too much for the poor guy.
Yup I mean guns laying all around where kids have easy access is not exactly something that is helpful, but if a country really did get rid of all of its guns then a school shooter would use explosives made at home or bladed weapons or something. The underlying problem is social, and even here in America we have done almost nothing about it except a series of laws that further ostracized troubled kids and suspend them if they show any sign of hostility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit