Re : Re: Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
Fragony
If what Luigi posted actually came from his mouth then we really don't need it, political correctness disgusts me but glorifying nazi's disgust me a whole lot more. Racism is an ugly thing that should never get in the way of the discussion we should be having.
I am unsure about whether to leave his politics for a few days or not. Then again, each man chooses his own actions and words. And we remember them at his death:
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Born in the Upper Austrian town of Bad Goisern in 1950, Joerg Haider's parents were very early members of the Nazi party, who moved to Germany where they became party officials. Critics say Haider's views were shaped by this background, although he said his family seldom discussed the past.
Around the same time he became party leader, Haider inherited a controversial $16m estate in the southern province of Carinthia where he became governor in 1989. Barental, or Bear Valley, was bought during World War II by his great uncle from an Italian Jew who fled in 1940. Critics say the sale was illegitimately forced upon the Jewish owner by the Nazis, but Haider consistently denied this.
He amassed a formidable power base in Carinthia, but his first stint as governor in 1989 ended abruptly when he praised the employment policies of Nazi Germany and was forced to resign. He was re-elected, however, in 1999 and 2003.
Haider gained notoriety for his pro-Nazi comments. He described World War II concentration camps as "punishment camps" and said the Nazi SS was "a part of the German army which should be honoured".
He also compared the deportation of Jews by the Nazis to the expulsion of Sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia after the war.
No leftist blog. Just the obituary on the BBC.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
Louis VI the Fat
Org policy requests us not to make political statements about the recently deceased. I shall therefore simply give centre stage to our Austrian Freedom politician himself:
'WWII concentration camps are only punishment camps'
'The SS is a part of the German army that should be honoured'
'The 'expulsion' of the Jews by the Nazis is comparable to the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland'
Or perhaps you could look at his actual policies instead of words, some of which were said almost twenty years ago? Sorry Louis, but the man is no neo-Nazi, no matter how hard you try to paint him as one.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
Louis VI the Fat
'WWII concentration camps are only punishment camps'
This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.
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'The SS is a part of the German army that should be honoured'
This is true. The line drawn by the allies between the German Army and the SS is false. They were all German fighting men. There were honorable soldiers in both the Wehrmacht and the SS, as well as dishonorable ones.
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'The 'expulsion' of the Jews by the Nazis is comparable to the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland'.
While the scale is much smaller, this is also fairly accurate. Thousands of Germans died in vicious state sponsored murders and concentration camps and it is hard to say the expulsion was not an ethnic cleansing.
Now then, were those three quotes smart things to say for a public figure? Of course not. I believe he apologized.
However, Louis, you must know that having family directly involved in a conflict can make it easier for one to see both sides. I certainly can see the German side of WW2. Most people - rightly or wrongly - refuse to look at the war from both perspectives. When your parents, or grandparents in my case, fought in it, you kind of have to.
Another example: Living in the South, most people understand where the leaders and soldiers of the Confederacy were coming from. Living in America, most people understand why Truman dropped the atomic bomb. However, I'm sure if you were to interview the family of former slaves or a resident of Nagasaki, their perspectives would be different.
My point is that Haider was in a unique position and I can understand why his perspective on the war was also unique. Condemning the man for three comments made over the course of several decades is probably not the best idea, especially considering that the political parties he headed were far from national socialist in nature.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.
"Punishment camps" seem to be more of an understatement, however.
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This is true. The line drawn by the allies between the German Army and the SS is false. They were all German fighting men. There were honorable soldiers in both the Wehrmacht and the SS, as well as dishonorable ones.
The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-Totenkopfverbände. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.
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While the scale is much smaller, this is also fairly accurate. Thousands of Germans died in vicious state sponsored murders and concentration camps and it is hard to say the expulsion was not an ethnic cleansing.
More of a revenge by the Soviets. And I cannot blame them. But trying to compare the Holocaust to this is plain silly.
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However, Louis, you must know that having family directly involved in a conflict can make it easier for one to see both sides. I certainly can see the German side of WW2. Most people - rightly or wrongly - refuse to look at the war from both perspectives. When your parents, or grandparents in my case, fought in it, you kind of have to.
I also had grandparents who fought, both against the Soviets and Germans.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
PanzerJaeger
This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.
No, it's false. He said they were only punishment camps.
CR
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
SwedishFish
The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-Totenkopfverbände. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.
If you understood the SS-Totenkopfverbande you would know that it had a totally separate hierarchy from the Waffen-SS. The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht controlled the Waffen-SS, while the Nazi-party controlled the Totenkopfverband and Einsatzgruppen. The Waffen-SS was like the Marines and rarely engaged in the actual purges as the wehrmacht was against such things. Regular wehrmacht troops also engaged in purges to an extent, yet they are honored for their heroism. Waffen-SS sacrifice and heroism was amazing during world war two and, while they were part of an unacceptably de-humanizing war machine which deserves it's infamous title, they are often mis-judged by what the SS-Totenkopfverbande, Allgemiene-SS and Einsatzgruppen were directly responsible for - three authoritatively separate branches of the government that were directly answerable to the NSDAP rather than the O.d.W.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
Crazed Rabbit
No, it's false. He said they were only punishment camps.
CR
What is false about that?
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
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Originally Posted by
TuffStuffMcGruff
If you understood the SS-Totenkopfverbande you would know that it had a totally separate hierarchy from the Waffen-SS. The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht controlled the Waffen-SS, while the Nazi-party controlled the Totenkopfverband and Einsatzgruppen. The Waffen-SS was like the Marines and rarelly engaged in the actual purges as the wehrmacht was against such things. Regular wehrmacht troops also engaged in purges to an extent, yet they are honored for their heroism. Waffen-SS heroism was amazing during world war two and, while they were part of an unacceptably de-humanizing war machine which deserves it's infamous title, they are often mis-judged by what the SS-Totenkopfverbande, Allgemiene-SS and Einsatzgruppen were directly responsible for - three authoritatively separate branches of the government.
The Waffen-SS were involved with war crimes. EVen under Wermacht control. 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA, a Waffen-SS unit killed 150 Canadian prisoners, 36th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (It's ranks were filled with common criminals).
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar.../h-einz-42.htm
Were all Waffen-SS members war criminals? No, some were even conscripts. The Allies decision to name the SS a criminal organization was right, because much of it was. Honor divisions like Wiking, not Totenkopfverbande.
