Jorg Haider is Dead

[Louis VI the Fat]

Org policy requests us not to make political statements about the recently deceased. I shall therefore simply give centre stage to our Austrian Freedom politician himself:

'WWII concentration camps are only punishment camps'
'The SS is a part of the German army that should be honoured'
'The 'expulsion' of the Jews by the Nazis is comparable to the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland'


Auf Wiedersehen, Jörg.

And indeed, by the standards of the Austrian far right Haider was still only a moderate, and a great hero to the hard-right, anti-EU, nationalist sentiment across Europe.

[Fragony]

Hmmmm.

[Tribesman]

What's a Jorg Haider ?

Its what you get when you breed from an S.A.stormtrooper and a female Hitler youth leader .

[KukriKhan]

I don't yet find word of the man's funeral, so let us observe a 72-hour moratorium on criticising his career, out of respect for his survivors.

Open season, therefore Tuesday, 14 October, 1200 GMT.

[JR-]

it is a shame he is gone from politics, because parties like his that effected the will of the electorate did more than anything to shine a spotlight on the poisonous conformist and PC nature of european politics.

[Kadagar_AV]

I did not vote for him in the last election, but he has my respect. At least he always told the truth as it was. I am sad he is gone, as he really made this country more aware of political issues.

RIP

[Fragony]

If what Luigi posted actually came from his mouth then we really don't need it, political correctness disgusts me but glorifying nazi's disgust me a whole lot more. Racism is an ugly thing that should never get in the way of the discussion we should be having.

[Louis VI the Fat]

If what Luigi posted actually came from his mouth then we really don't need it, political correctness disgusts me but glorifying nazi's disgust me a whole lot more. Racism is an ugly thing that should never get in the way of the discussion we should be having.

I am unsure about whether to leave his politics for a few days or not. Then again, each man chooses his own actions and words. And we remember them at his death:

Born in the Upper Austrian town of Bad Goisern in 1950, Joerg Haider's parents were very early members of the Nazi party, who moved to Germany where they became party officials. Critics say Haider's views were shaped by this background, although he said his family seldom discussed the past.

Around the same time he became party leader, Haider inherited a controversial $16m estate in the southern province of Carinthia where he became governor in 1989. Barental, or Bear Valley, was bought during World War II by his great uncle from an Italian Jew who fled in 1940. Critics say the sale was illegitimately forced upon the Jewish owner by the Nazis, but Haider consistently denied this.

He amassed a formidable power base in Carinthia, but his first stint as governor in 1989 ended abruptly when he praised the employment policies of Nazi Germany and was forced to resign. He was re-elected, however, in 1999 and 2003.


Haider gained notoriety for his pro-Nazi comments. He described World War II concentration camps as "punishment camps" and said the Nazi SS was "a part of the German army which should be honoured".
He also compared the deportation of Jews by the Nazis to the expulsion of Sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia after the war.

No leftist blog. Just the obituary on the BBC.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Louis has said what needs saying.

n 2000, the EU imposed sanctions against Austria in a protest over his party's role in government.

?!?!

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Org policy requests us not to make political statements about the recently deceased. I shall therefore simply give centre stage to our Austrian Freedom politician himself:

'WWII concentration camps are only punishment camps'
'The SS is a part of the German army that should be honoured'
'The 'expulsion' of the Jews by the Nazis is comparable to the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland'

Or perhaps you could look at his actual policies instead of words, some of which were said almost twenty years ago? Sorry Louis, but the man is no neo-Nazi, no matter how hard you try to paint him as one.

[PanzerJaeger]

'WWII concentration camps are only punishment camps'

This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.

'The SS is a part of the German army that should be honoured'

This is true. The line drawn by the allies between the German Army and the SS is false. They were all German fighting men. There were honorable soldiers in both the Wehrmacht and the SS, as well as dishonorable ones.

'The 'expulsion' of the Jews by the Nazis is comparable to the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland'.

While the scale is much smaller, this is also fairly accurate. Thousands of Germans died in vicious state sponsored murders and concentration camps and it is hard to say the expulsion was not an ethnic cleansing.


Now then, were those three quotes smart things to say for a public figure? Of course not. I believe he apologized.

However, Louis, you must know that having family directly involved in a conflict can make it easier for one to see both sides. I certainly can see the German side of WW2. Most people - rightly or wrongly - refuse to look at the war from both perspectives. When your parents, or grandparents in my case, fought in it, you kind of have to.

Another example: Living in the South, most people understand where the leaders and soldiers of the Confederacy were coming from. Living in America, most people understand why Truman dropped the atomic bomb. However, I'm sure if you were to interview the family of former slaves or a resident of Nagasaki, their perspectives would be different.

My point is that Haider was in a unique position and I can understand why his perspective on the war was also unique. Condemning the man for three comments made over the course of several decades is probably not the best idea, especially considering that the political parties he headed were far from national socialist in nature.

[KarlXII]

This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.

"Punishment camps" seem to be more of an understatement, however.

This is true. The line drawn by the allies between the German Army and the SS is false. They were all German fighting men. There were honorable soldiers in both the Wehrmacht and the SS, as well as dishonorable ones.

The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-Totenkopfverbände. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.

While the scale is much smaller, this is also fairly accurate. Thousands of Germans died in vicious state sponsored murders and concentration camps and it is hard to say the expulsion was not an ethnic cleansing.

More of a revenge by the Soviets. And I cannot blame them. But trying to compare the Holocaust to this is plain silly.

However, Louis, you must know that having family directly involved in a conflict can make it easier for one to see both sides. I certainly can see the German side of WW2. Most people - rightly or wrongly - refuse to look at the war from both perspectives. When your parents, or grandparents in my case, fought in it, you kind of have to.

I also had grandparents who fought, both against the Soviets and Germans.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-Totenkopfverbände. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.

If you understood the SS-Totenkopfverbande you would know that it had a totally separate hierarchy from the Waffen-SS. The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht controlled the Waffen-SS, while the Nazi-party controlled the Totenkopfverband and Einsatzgruppen. The Waffen-SS was like the Marines and rarely engaged in the actual purges as the wehrmacht was against such things. Regular wehrmacht troops also engaged in purges to an extent, yet they are honored for their heroism. Waffen-SS sacrifice and heroism was amazing during world war two and, while they were part of an unacceptably de-humanizing war machine which deserves it's infamous title, they are often mis-judged by what the SS-Totenkopfverbande, Allgemiene-SS and Einsatzgruppen were directly responsible for - three authoritatively separate branches of the government that were directly answerable to the NSDAP rather than the O.d.W.

[KarlXII]

If you understood the SS-Totenkopfverbande you would know that it had a totally separate hierarchy from the Waffen-SS. The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht controlled the Waffen-SS, while the Nazi-party controlled the Totenkopfverband and Einsatzgruppen. The Waffen-SS was like the Marines and rarelly engaged in the actual purges as the wehrmacht was against such things. Regular wehrmacht troops also engaged in purges to an extent, yet they are honored for their heroism. Waffen-SS heroism was amazing during world war two and, while they were part of an unacceptably de-humanizing war machine which deserves it's infamous title, they are often mis-judged by what the SS-Totenkopfverbande, Allgemiene-SS and Einsatzgruppen were directly responsible for - three authoritatively separate branches of the government.

The Waffen-SS were involved with war crimes. EVen under Wermacht control. 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA, a Waffen-SS unit killed 150 Canadian prisoners, 36th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (It's ranks were filled with common criminals).

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar.../h-einz-42.htm

Were all Waffen-SS members war criminals? No, some were even conscripts. The Allies decision to name the SS a criminal organization was right, because much of it was. Honor divisions like Wiking, not Totenkopfverbande.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Honor divisions like Wiking, not Totenkopfverbande.

Oh absolutely - I agree. The Totenkopfverbande and Allgemaine SS should be humiliated for their horrors forever. Waffen-SS groups who never had anything to do with purges and most likely had no idea they were going on should be honored like we honor U.S. Marines today for their sacrifice and heroism. They gave their lives to defend a Germany that they believed was right and good, even though at that point it wasn't.

[Incongruous]

Oh absolutely - I agree. The Totenkopfverbande and Allgemaine SS should be humiliated for their horrors forever. Waffen-SS groups who never had anything to do with purges and most likely had no idea they were going on should be honored like we honor U.S. Marines today for their sacrifice and heroism. They gave their lives to defend a Germany that they believed was right and good, even though at that point it wasn't.

Umm, no, not unless those groups had nothing to do with the barbarity if German conquests in Europe. They gave their lives to conquer entire nations, the fact that they may have died on German soil is the price they payed for such actions.

Them being SS fanatics, I reckons it is certain they did commit attrocities. Not just spur of the moment things in the heat of battle, but for reasons of mission and belief.

[KukriKhan]

I don't yet find word of the man's funeral, so let us observe a 72-hour moratorium on criticising his career, out of respect for his survivors.

Open season, therefore Tuesday, 14 October, 1200 GMT.

We were doing OK while keeping the discussion general, and off Herr Haider. But we've delved into criticism of of his career anyway.

Therefore: closed until Tuesday.

[Tribesman]

I did hear that Haider was going to be cremated , but there is a rumour that the crematoria are only a myth .

[PanzerJaeger]

"Punishment camps" seem to be more of an understatement, however.

It wasn't the best way to put it, but it is technically true and not automatically pro-nazi.

The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-Totenkopfverbände. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.

Tuff made good points. There were many honorable SS soldiers.

More of a revenge by the Soviets. And I cannot blame them. But trying to compare the Holocaust to this is plain silly.

Not sure how that is silly. It was a state sponsored ethnic cleansing like any other.

[KarlXII]

Not sure how that is silly. It was a state sponsored ethnic cleansing like any other.

So the Holocaust didn't kill about 6 million undesirables? Or is it OK, because those damned Commies got the superior Germans?

[PanzerJaeger]

So the Holocaust didn't kill about 6 million undesirables? Or is it OK, because those damned Commies got the superior Germans?

No I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that both were instances of ethnic cleansing. The scale of the Holocaust was larger, but both involved state sanctioned murder and concentration camps.

They were death camps. Or are you saying death was simply a 'punishment'?

Death is a punishment in the US, how would it be anything else in Nazi Germany?

In any event, concentration camps were not the same as death camps - according to Jewish scholars anyway.

I'm also having trouble finding where Haider said the camps were "only" punishment camps. Neither wiki nor its source includes "only".

[KarlXII]

In any event, concentration camps were not the same as death camps - according to Jewish scholars anyway.

Yep. 'Dem Jews alright.

[ICantSpellDawg]

No I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that both were instances of ethnic cleansing. The scale of the Holocaust was larger, but both involved state sanctioned murder and concentration camps.

Death is a punishment in the US, how would it be anything else in Nazi Germany?

In any event, concentration camps were not the same as death camps - according to Jewish scholars anyway.

Right. Not all camps were death camps. Many were just de-humanising work camps without the ovens or gas chambers.

I don't believe that Haider was saying the Holocaust was somehow diminished because of the german purges after the war - I think he was saying that, although the holocaust was massively more devastating that the ethnic cleansing of germans, the murderous ethnic cleansing of Germans was de-humanising and unjustifiable itself.

[Ironside]

No I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that both were instances of ethnic cleansing. The scale of the Holocaust was larger, but both involved state sanctioned murder and concentration camps.

Sadly, the term ethnic cleaning does by itself lack the distinction between ethnically cleansing region and a complete ethnic cleansing. While still both are hideous crimes, there's still a difference that's larger than simply size.

Do you honestly believe anyone at that debate didn't know what he meant when he said "the punishment camps of National Socialism"?

So why the change of a generally accepted word into something that can (and often will) imply guilt? This rewriting of terms is a classical move in propaganda.

For example, what do you think of the teaching facilities in the Communist states?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also known a re-education centers, the nice term for political prisons.

[Kadagar_AV]

I am in awe of the waffen-SS combat abilities...

And as others have pointed out, they have a very underserved bad name. The allies were severely afraid of the SS combat abilities, and rightfully so, since they often won against overwhelming odds.

[Crazed Rabbit]

This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.

No, it's false. He said they were only punishment camps.

CR

[PanzerJaeger]

No, it's false. He said they were only punishment camps.

CR

What is false about that?

[Crazed Rabbit]

What is false about that?

They were death camps. Or are you saying death was simply a 'punishment'?

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So the Holocaust didn't kill about 6 million undesirables? Or is it OK, because those damned Commies got the superior Germans?

How did you get that out of his post? They were both state sponsored ethnic cleansings. Saying that the expulsion of the Germans was ethnic cleansing doesn't mean that you're a Holocaust denier.

[KarlXII]

How did you get that out of his post? They were both state sponsored ethnic cleansings. Saying that the expulsion of the Germans was ethnic cleansing doesn't mean that you're a Holocaust denier.

It doesn't mean they're comparable. Or justifiable. Somehow, I take it from Good Ol' Jorg's statement that the Holocaust is somehow alright because them Reds killed Germans. Nevermind the fact the Germans also killed Russians, French, Italians, Jews, Gypsies, Brits, Norwegians, Hungarians, Greeks, Romanians, Finns, Danes, etc.