German Identity

BBC

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We are the first generation who thinks rationally about the National Socialism. The first generation in the 1950s denied everything, our parents accepted everything, accepted the guilt and the responsibility, but we are in the middle thinking about the consequences, but we aren't feeling guilty any more. Yeah, we're the first rationals.

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The article also raises some interesting points about German patriotism, but the most interesting one is the basic question. Who are we? It is a difficult question, and many will have a different answer. But what does it really mean to be German? Not on an ethnic basis, or on the little piece of paper that tells me I am, but the deeper philosophical question. I've heard many answers. I admit that I have found one that is appealing to me - Wir Sind Wir. But is it wrong to see what we are and acknowledge the greatness in our past? After all, we have acknowledged the evil. I'd be very interested in the perspectives of non-Germans, which is why I posted this here.

Is it wrong to be proud?

EDIT: Not proud as in "my country is better than your country," but as in "my country is pretty good and I'm proud of being part of it."

no it is not wrong for germany to be proud.

merely that it is not necessary to manufacture reasons to be a proud german if reasons to be a proud prussian (for example) are more relevant and accurate.

manufactured patriotism is more likely in my opinion to result in dangerous nationalism.

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Originally Posted by Maniac

Is it wrong to be proud?

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During the Historikerstreit, the 'Battle of the Historians', in the 1980's, the philosopher Jürgen Habermas gave an answer for me: 'One can be proud of one's history, even if there is a blemish on it'.

Habermas resisted the nationalist version of history as presented by the likes of Ernst Nolte, which sought to trivialise, or even absolve, German responsability. He also resisted a presentation of 1933-1945 as a complete abberation, a kind of alien invasion. Which also trivialises German responsability.
Equally, the thought that German history inevitably led to Auschwitz, or that German history is an accomplice, nothing but a prelude to 1933, was resisted.

This I share. The 18th century enlightened poet Schiller is Germany. the Holocaust is Germany too. But can't one not admire Schiller despite the Holocaust?


As for German identity, that exceeds the limit of a forum post. A quick answer about history getting in the way of a German identity.

I would say, that WWII was two centuries ago. Somewhere shortly before or after Napoleon. I don't care.

For those who insist I have my history timeline wrong:
The (West) German state represents the continuity of Germany. As such, it accepts responsibility. This acceptance of responsibility, Germany's democratic nature, and Germany's efforts to strive towards friendship between peoples are the ways in which Germany has and continues to reclaim its honour.
For personal identity and history: there are adult Germans now who where born after the fall of the Wall. Germans who hold university degrees whose grandparents were born after 1945. The old generation is gone. And sins are not heriditary. There is no personal responsibility, though it graces a German to be knowledgeable about his history, the way it graces a non-German to realise that he who is without sin, casts the first stone.



Other than that, this is the internets so I'm outta here before the revisionists spout their vulgar nonsense again and work on my blood pressure.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

This I share. The 18th century enlightened poet Schiller is Germany. the Holocaust is Germany too. But can't one not admire Schiller despite the Holocaust?

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Indeed. But are not the poets too often simply thrown aside for a look into the darkest times of our history? When we think of the British, we think of Wordsworth, Tennyson, Queen Victoria, black pudding, and Aston Martin. Do most people really think of the same things in German history?

There is no doubt that the Holocaust and the war were terrible, horrible, atrocious events. But do they define us? I sincerely hope not.

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Other than that, this is the internets so I'm outta here before the revisionists spout their vulgar nonsense again and work on my blood pressure.

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This is the only part of your post I would disagree with. Whether you agree with this case of revisionism or not, you would surely agree that historical revisionism in general is very, very important to history and our understanding of it?

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

This is the only part of your post I would disagree with. Whether you agree with this case of revisionism or not, you would surely agree that historical revisionism in general is very, very important to history and our understanding of it?

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It depends on how it's used. If used in historical debate, I have no problems, as long as the evidence is strong and supporting. However, historical revisionism has always been the foundation to inane nationalistic propoganda.

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

It depends on how it's used. If used in historical debate, I have no problems, as long as the evidence is strong and supporting. However, historical revisionism has always been the foundation to inane nationalistic propoganda.

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Well, if you can back up your position with factual historical data, you're entitled to have it.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

This is the only part of your post I would disagree with. Whether you agree with this case of revisionism or not, you would surely agree that historical revisionism in general is very, very important to history and our understanding of it?

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I think you misunderstand the word's use in English. Of course it is important to revise our understanding of history as new evidence and new thought emerges.

Revisionism however, has a particular meaning almost in opposition to the above. A revisionist aims to revise history towards a previously held point of view. In relation to Germany's history, this invariably means trying to excuse the Holocaust and Nazism via mealy-mouthed spin on detail. It is repulsive and demeaning.

Does the Holocaust define Germany? Yes it does, but it is merely a part of the definition. Crucial, but not the whole complex story.

Louis, as ever, a wonderful post. bow:

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Indeed. But are not the poets too often simply thrown aside for a look into the darkest times of our history? When we think of the British, we think of Wordsworth, Tennyson, Queen Victoria, black pudding, and Aston Martin. Do most people really think of the same things in German history?

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I believe they do. At least I do. Goethe, Humboldt, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Schiller, Bismarck, Frederick the Great, Beethoven, Wagner, Mercedes, BMW etc...

Even Stalin said: "Hitlers come and go, Germany and German people remain". Compared to all this, Hitler barely deserves a footnote. If I were German, I wouldn't see anything to be ashamed of. Of course, this doesn't mean that we should forget about Nazi Germany crimes in WW2. In my opinion, the way Germany was able to let go of the Nazi past just added to its "greatness". That's why I'm rather surprised when I see German feeling the need to defend it, or trying to put it "in perspective"...

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

I think you misunderstand the word's use in English. Of course it is important to revise our understanding of history as new evidence and new thought emerges.

Revisionism however, has a particular meaning almost in opposition to the above. A revisionist aims to revise history towards a previously held point of view. In relation to Germany's history, this invariably means trying to excuse the Holocaust and Nazism via mealy-mouthed spin on detail. It is repulsive and demeaning.

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Well, I see historical revisionism as this, and I suppose most people see it as this when the word "revisionism" is used. I think that this is an unfortunate connontation.

Not at all. I'm glad Germans are growing more proud.

The Holocaust should define Germany no more than the ethnic cleansing of native populations in India, Asia and Africa defines the British and French, the exterminations in Central and South America defines the Spanish, the genocide of the North American Indians defines American, the annihilation of entire ethnic groups within Russia defines the Russians, the Cultural Revolution defines the Chinese, the Armenian genocide defines the Turks, et cetera....

The Holocaust is neither the largest genocide nor the cruelest. More importantly, most Germans were unaware of the extent of the Holocaust. They were shown newsreels and propaganda films depicting the necessary but humane removal of the Jews, whom they had long been told were subversive and traitorous. In fact, the Jews were shown to be happy and productive. Most Americans did not know what the government was really doing with the Japanese it rounded up, yet Germans are somehow expected to know exactly what was happening to the Jews in a totalitarian state where all information passed through the watchful eye of Goebbels? And during wartime when bombs were being dropped on them? It's laughable and completely ignores the historical reality of the situation.

The truth is that WW2 had nothing to do with the Jews, not for the Germans and certainly not for the Allies. The Western Allied governments chose to play it up after the war not out of moral outrage, but as a tool to help ensure German submission through collective shame; all the while with a wink and a nod to their Russian and Chinese allies who were doing the same thing. Read up on Ike. The sad truth is that nobody cared about the Jews until they saw a convenient way to paint WW2 in terms of good and evil for the masses, instead of trying to explain the complicated and decidedly amoral power politics that defined the war. No one wanted them before the war, as no one trusted or liked them. The Final Solution was in fact "final" because all other methods of removing them - including deportation to other nations - had failed. Although it seems completely insane today, Hitler & Co truly believed the Jews posed a serious threat to society - serious enough to divert crucial resources away from the fronts. So did Henry Ford - one of America's leading industrialists, as well as a vast number of successful, intelligent and educated people around the world. The broad nature and of anti-Semitism throughout the world during that time and the tangible fear and hatred Jews elicited is conveniently forgotten in most high school history books

IMHO, WW2 brought out the best and the worst of all the major combatants. There is absolutely no reason Americans and Russians can be proud of the way they conducted themselves during the war, but Germans cannot. All the major nations had brave and honorable soldiers, and unfortunately all had governments that abused the trust of their people and their control of information to perpetrate enormous breeches of human rights. It's all about putting the broad brushes away and looking at history in the context in which it happened instead of painting events in terms of good and evil. History is never that simple.

And of course, German history encompasses so much more than the Nazi years...

Germans should be able to have pride in their nation and its ideals, just as anyone else from another country. However, don't be proud of yourself just because you are German, that is wrong.

If we seriously judge people by their ancestors, then I suppose Mongolians would be the most evil and murderous lot on earth. To carry out such an extensive campaign of murder, rape, and destruction from Burma to the steppes is an unbelievable feat, even moreso considering this took place in the middle ages. Do we judge Mongolians today by this - no! We do not tell them to be ashamed, and rightfully so.

Of course, as Louis said this does not in any way justify what the Nazi's did and I'm not aiming at revisionism, rather my point is that the Nazi's represent a couple of decades out of thousands of years of Germanic history.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Germans should be able to have pride in their nation and its ideals, just as anyone else from another country. However, don't be proud of yourself just because you are German, that is wrong.

If we seriously judge people by their ancestors, then I suppose Mongolians would be the most evil and murderous lot on earth. To carry out such an extensive campaign of murder, rape, and destruction from Burma to the steppes is an unbelievable feat, even moreso considering this took place in the middle ages. Do we judge Mongolians today by this - no! We do not tell them to be ashamed, and rightfully so.

Of course, as Louis said this does not in any way justify what the Nazi's did and I'm not aiming at revisionism, rather my point is that the Nazi's represent a couple of decades out of thousands of years of Germanic history.

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There should be nothing wrong with being proud simply because they are German.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

However, don't be proud of yourself just because you are German, that is wrong.

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Why is that wrong? I don't see anything wrong with someone being proud of being British and the British culture, Canada and the Canadian culture, Russia and the Russian culture, so why is being German different? Or do you think it isn't, and perhaps I am simply misunderstanding?

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Why is that wrong? I don't see anything wrong with someone being proud of being British and the British culture, Canada and the Canadian culture, Russia and the Russian culture, so why is being German different? Or do you think it isn't, and perhaps I am simply misunderstanding?

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I think he may mean don't be Krook proud of being a certain culture :smash:

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

I think he may mean don't be Krook proud of being a certain culture :smash:

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My pride in the USA is every bit as robust as Krook's for his native land. I have this pride even though I am well aware of the problems and blind spots we most certainly have. Krook does tend to gloss over that side of things a bit.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

My pride in the USA is every bit as robust as Krook's for his native land. I have this pride even though I am well aware of the problems and blind spots we most certainly have. Krook does tend to gloss over that side of things a bit.

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And there is a fine line between "USA #1" and "USA 1 Eurofags 0"

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Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon

There should be nothing wrong with being proud simply because they are German.

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I don't know why I should be proud simply for being german.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Why is that wrong? I don't see anything wrong with someone being proud of being British and the British culture, Canada and the Canadian culture, Russia and the Russian culture, so why is being German different? Or do you think it isn't, and perhaps I am simply misunderstanding?

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Don't get me wrong, I do not mean Germany specifically. I am just being a puritan when I say don't be proud of yourself.

What I mean is that there is nothing wrong with holding Germany, its history, and its values in high regard. It's got an incredibly interesting history as any wargamer will know. Just don't think proudly of yourself for being German, if German values are reflected in you then it is because of the influence that it has had on you, not something you can attribute to your own merit.

Same applies to anyone from anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Don't get me wrong, I do not mean Germany specifically. I am just being a puritan when I say don't be proud of yourself.

What I mean is that there is nothing wrong with holding Germany, its history, and its values in high regard. It's got an incredibly interesting history as any wargamer will know. Just don't think proudly of yourself for being German, if German values are reflected in you then it is because of the influence that it has had on you, not something you can attribute to your own merit.

Same applies to anyone from anywhere.

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I think we had that discussion before and it came down to proud also having a somewhat more applicable meaning in english or something like that. :dizzy2:

Our much apreciated neighbours, we all get a little crazy sometimes germans are just so terribly effective when they do.

I don't see any problem when German is pround to be German.
Germany is nice country with well organised people.
Problem starts when Germans starts being pround from sending people do gas chambers.
If they are pround of being Germans and they are pround from their country - ok for me.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I don't know why I should be proud simply for being german.

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Well, it is the society into which you were born, a society of remarkable achievement and history, by being a German you are the heir to this legacy, left to you by your elders and being proud of it is a way of recognising what they did and spurring yourself to better things.

I feel proud simply for having been born in London, in England and in Britain. To me it incites only positive thoughts and feelings.

Such as beating all those foriegners in '04.

You Euros are so cute

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You Euros are so cute

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Not at first but we grow on you...

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Not at first but we grow on you...

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*pats head*

So long as it does not get to the "why do you hate freedom" stage, there isn't really anything wrong with being proud of your country.

What does everyone think of this statement?

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We are the first generation who thinks rationally about the National Socialism. The first generation in the 1950s denied everything, our parents accepted everything, accepted the guilt and the responsibility, but we are in the middle thinking about the consequences, but we aren't feeling guilty any more. Yeah, we're the first rationals.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I don't know why I should be proud simply for being german.

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Yay! My anti-patriot comrade! :smash:

Feelings like patriotism and nationalism belongs on the football pitch, people. It clouds the mind when applied elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yay! My anti-patriot comrade! :smash:

Feelings like patriotism and nationalism belongs on the football pitch, people. It clouds the mind when applied elsewhere.

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Yeah. I think it is fine to feel proud of the people who you call your fellow citizens (When they truly deserve it), but being proud of a concept, such as a country, is IMO not right.