berserker unit attribute: possible addition to EB for BI

Hello. I'm thinking of adding the berserker unit attribute to EB for BI, but I don't know enough about it yet to make a good decision. Here is the description for it:

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Berserker units can go berserk (BI Only)

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And it replaces one of the other stat_mental "discipline" attributes (low, normal, disciplined, impetuous).

What does it do *exactly*? It is like "run amok" for elephants? Do they automatically fight to the death instead of fleeing? Any state bonuses I should be aware of? Does it displace special unit abilities like shield_wall or warcry?

It could be an interesting addition for units like the gaesatae and other elite barbarian units.

In Paeninsula Italica, it makes a single unit of Campanian mercenaries destroy a fullstack. You also lose all control of the unit while it basically destroys all enemy soldiers on the field.

So :no:.

Giving it to Gaesatae would make it more unbalanced than heavy cavalry vs peasants in vanilla RTW.

They were drugged up and couldn't feel pain. I'd buy it.

A *full stack*? Of what, gallic levies? Good lord. Might as well give them AK-47s.

Guns of the South anyone??

Seriously, I pitted a unit of berserkers against 5 units of spearmen in a BI custom battle, and the fight was close, though the spearmen came through. Against 20 units of peasants, the berserkers won a handy victory.

They have 2 HP and area attack crap. You can't compare something with area attack to soemthing other than an elephant or chariot if oyu're talking about EB.

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A *full stack*? Of what, gallic levies?

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Yeah aparently killing a whole stack of crap is a good measure of awesomeness. Heh, on a related note I've recreated Thermopolyae in EB with the maximum amount of units possible(As in the maximum amount of AIs with full stacks of Pandas and Archer-Spearmen) vs 300 Spartans and 900 allies. It was at 3 FPS when I was looking away from the battle.

I find your lack of faith disturbing...

Anyway, I was playing as Syracuse, so it was against Carthage. Seriously, they will kill absolutely anything in their path. The only thing that seems to stop them is chariots - they snap them out of their berserker rage, leaving them vulnerable.

In BI a unit of berserkers will take down a unit of elephants with frighteningly low losses. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Olaf Blackeyes

Guns of the South anyone??

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Yeah, but this is the Antiquity, and not Civil War. Harry Turtledove is the best though. No better author than him.

I would think that given the ingenuity of the EB team they could implement the berserker attribute. I always thought that the stats of the units were not supposed to be balanced but representative of probably how good they were in a fight. If one unit in RL did go berserk in battle and were able to take down 10+ people for every one of their guys dying, it should be in the game and shouldn't be nerfed.

Ok,..... WALKING NUKES ANYONE?!?!?!?!

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I would think that given the ingenuity of the EB team they could implement the berserker attribute. I always thought that the stats of the units were not supposed to be balanced but representative of probably how good they were in a fight. If one unit in RL did go berserk in battle and were able to take down 10+ people for every one of their guys dying, it should be in the game and shouldn't be nerfed.

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Yeah, but there were hundreds and thousands of places in the known world of European, North African and Western Asiatic world that were renowned for producing one or more type of exceptional warriors. That place had marvelous archers, this place has unbeatable swordsmen, and that place over there fields superb hoplites, etc, etc. Much of the descriptions of the effectiveness of those units is rather vague, exaggerated or hazy. It is difficult to determine the strength of a unit when all you hear of is boasting. So the EB team attempts to balance it all out.

I do not believe that the Babylonian Spearmen should have something like 8 defence skill while Lugoae have 12, but that is the way it is. Often times one can observe the "civilised" soldiers having low defence skill which is compensated by armour, while the "barbarian" troops have low armour but high defence skill. That's balancing, as the Lugoae have as much defence skill as some of the elite "civilised" units.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

I do not believe that the Babylonian Spearmen should have something like 8 defence skill while Lugoae have 12, but that is the way it is. Often times one can observe the "civilised" soldiers having low defence skill which is compensated by armour, while the "barbarian" troops have low armour but high defence skill. That's balancing, as the Lugoae have as much defence skill as some of the elite "civilised" units.

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I think the civilized units often have lower defence skill not because the armor compensates for it, but because the fact that they are wearing armor decreases their ability to defend themselves.
It is much easier for an unarmored man not to be hit, while an armored man can't move as fast and has to rely on the armor: Lugoae dodge blows that a Babylonian Spearman has to take, without being better fighters as such.

Unarmoured units have indeed a bonus in defence skill for being better able to move and react on incomming hits. Note though that 1 armour point is not the same as 1 point in defence skill. Armour works for any attack, skill only for the right flank and or front and doesn't work for missiles.

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Originally Posted by Ferromancer

What does it do *exactly*? It is like "run amok" for elephants? Do they automatically fight to the death instead of fleeing? Any state bonuses I should be aware of? Does it displace special unit abilities like shield_wall or warcry?

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I am not sure what exactly the bonus is, but it's a special ability (and thus cannot be combined with other special abilities) and in my short time playing vanilla BI I haven't seen a berserk unit routing. Since Gaesatae and other barbarian elites could and did rout, I don't think it would be realistic.

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Originally Posted by desert

In Paeninsula Italica, it makes a single unit of Campanian mercenaries destroy a fullstack. You also lose all control of the unit while it basically destroys all enemy soldiers on the field.

So :no:.

Giving it to Gaesatae would make it more unbalanced than heavy cavalry vs peasants in vanilla RTW.

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maybe you should also explain that Paeninsula Italica current version is a beta, but the EDU is still alpha = its only purpouse is to make possible to launch the game; it is completely unbalanced right now, and we are on the initial stage of applying our theoric model.

I know because actually I am the responsible for the EDU :2thumbsup:

Well, I didn't know that! All I did was download it after looking at the faction previews thread. :yes:

BI Lombard Berserkers ftw:smash:

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Originally Posted by Aper

maybe you should also explain that Paeninsula Italica current version is a beta, but the EDU is still alpha = its only purpouse is to make possible to launch the game; it is completely unbalanced right now, and we are on the initial stage of applying our theoric model.

I know because actually I am the responsible for the EDU :2thumbsup:

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i saw the PI EDU almost a year ago...what you have now is much more than an alpha :2thumbsup: