Printable View
His first trip has achieved, shall we say, modest results. Nothing tangible, actually. He has presented himself to the world as a spineless wimp ready to bend in any direction. North Korean openly laughs in his face, Iranian government has largely ignored his good will overtures, Russia and China do not seem to be taking him very seriously. He might be liked abroad, but I don't think he is respected. Very disappointing.
Give him time to build up some gravitas.
A very sexy word but that is what one brings to the office, not gains over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
Politics and politicians in general are disappointing. All the more so for Obama because of his rockstar image.
I said this to 'mom' last year. She was overcome with glee when he beat Hilarious to the Democratic nomination. I tried to warn her that all politicians are the same. Cynical Brit that I am. :embarassed:
He's just Blair MKII.
You heard it here first. :shame:
roflmao - at this topic. :laugh4:
You see, I am smart. I got my expectations of Barack Obama so low, that if he does not plunge us into WWIII I will be pleasantly suprised. I think it would be impossible for him to disappoint me now. The only thing that does cause me disappointment is the stupidity and spinelessness of modern Americans. (The same can be said about the rest of the world, but my expectations were so much higher for Americans because of all they have been blessed with) I know people who have voted for Obama because for reasonable considerations that I simply did not agree with, but so many people who I know supported him and voted for him when they knew absolutely nothing about him at all. I hate to say it, but it is mostly women who have dissapointed me with it too. When I ask them why they voted for Obama, it is not because they think he will make a better president, it is:
a) because my friends did
b) because it is kewl
c) I do not know much about politics, but it is my duty to vote, and he looks like a nice guy :wall:
Then in the most blatent show of racism I have ever personally witness in my lifetime: "He is black :wall:, a black man getting into office will be final step in ending racism" Sadly, that is the one I have heard the most. You know when racism ends? When a black guy and a white guy run against each other, and the general public is concerned about their policies, personalities, and experience, and race is NOT an issue. Those people who voted for Obama because he is black did the exact opposite, they showed that this country is not past race (and never will be as long as there are people like them), and that it is a key factor in politics.
If you cannot honestly tell the world that if McCain and Obama were the same people in all other respects, but their races were reversed, that you would have voted the exact same, then you go against everything this country stands for and you do not deserve the right to vote, because you blatantly dishonour those who fought for civil liberties, those who fought for equality in the revolution, and your very country. If you voted because of race, then you are a racist. Plain and simple.
I got nothing against people who vote for what they think is better for their country (whether they vote D or R), but when people base their choice on race, that really does disgust me. Certainly not a majority of the people I know made their decision based on race, but enough to disappoint me in Americans and people in general...way too many for the 21st century in an age where we are supposed to judge people as individuals, not by their skin colour... Almost as disappointing is some of the other brainless reasons I have heard people give, which have to do with popularity rather than ability. Obama cannot disappoint me, but Americans certainly do...
You are correct that some of those voting for Obama soley because of his race -- and I'd agree that the number who'll admit that motivation is likely to be smaller than the number so motivated -- are themselves practicing a brand of racism. Unfortunately, getting to the non-racist end-state you describe probably DOES involve some of this "reverse" racism. Eventually the penduluum begins to gyrate less and less wildly and we will arrive at a new, non-racist balance point. I suspect it is all an inevitable part of the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
As to disappointment, I have to agree I am disappointed. However, given the penduluum of US politics, an Obama was almost inevitable. We'd been under GOP leadership with a "tough" foreign policy for some time. The electorate likes to mix it up a bit and, mostly, wanted someone who'd take a softer approach. They'll learn that softer isn't necessarily better and creates its own raft of problems -- just as did the harder stance effected by the Bush White House.
Exactly. We went from Nixon to Carter.
Man, I so hate these wild swings.
First of all, let's give it a little more time to declare Obama another Carter. Second of all, Nixon was quite a bit more competent, in my view, than Bush 43. Less ethical and more power-hungry, but definitely more competent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
To be honest, Obama has grown on me. He wasn't my preferred candidate. He has since overcome many of my reservations about him. He is serious, moderate, flexible, reliable. I get the feeling that he is well respected over here, irrespective of the inevitable disappointment of the Obama = messias crowd.
Concerning Obama's foreign blitztrips of the past weeks, each country's and region's expectations and response to Obama are a different subject altogether. The G20, the EU, NATO, Turkey, and overtures to Russia and Iran each were very different projects. On the whole, I think Obama performed an excellent job. Of course, he's got a truly outstanding Secretary of State who laid the groundwork for him.
Any disappointment I think has got more to do with unrealistic expectations than with failures of policy or 'tone of voice' of the Obama administration.
Racism today I think is even more inexcusable than it was in the 20's. Back then people were raised in an atmosphere and society that taught them that the other race was inhuman and inferior, so it is easier to understand why they themselves held those views (which isn't to say that it is anymore right). Today, in a society that is supposed to espouse equality and teach people to look at people for who they are and not their skin colour, it is a lot less excusable, and requires a much larger ethical jump than it did back then I think. That is why it disappoints me so much, because I expected this election to be based on the people and politics, not the race. Of course I knew that there would be a few people on either of the fringes, but for the most part I expected people not to consider race as a factor. I certainly never thought that any of my own aquaintances would make their selection because of race. It is not "reverse" racism, it is racism. It is the same vehicle, just with a different driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I have been so naive I think, because I always expected racism to come from the other way, because that is what I was taught. It shocked me to see it so alive in today's society, and coming from a direction I did not expect. As a person of mixed race, I feel as much hate toward McCain because of his race as Obama, and as much love of Obama because of his race as McCain. I recognise the good intent a lot of people may have had, but that does not make it anymore right. People need to think. If you are afraid that some people in society are gonna be racist, you counter it by not being racist yourself, and encouraging those you know not to be racist. Not by being racist yourself and encouraging those you know to be racist! It does not fix anything, it just takes us further from the mark.
As for policy, I think you are right about people wanting change. Unfortunately, I think people should have paid attention to the old addage "Out of the frying pan into the fire". Sure, Bush was bad and we want something different, but we should choose that something on its merit, not just because it is "different". I think we did just that though, got our feet burnt, and jumped out first chance right into the fire.
He's a much more experienced campaigner than he is president :book:
You're also viewing Nixon in the light of history. What will you think of Bush '43 in 30 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinseikhaan
The parallels between Obama and Carter are striking, right down to their energy policy.
So, you're asking me what I'll think of Bush 43 in 30 years, but won't ask yourself what you'll think of Obama by the end if his term, let alone 30 years? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
About foreign policy. I think it's better for USA to be liked than feared. The Obama's predecessor put USA in mess esp. in Afghanistan and Iraq. The crisis is also a factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Race is a false construct. ESP in America. The fact that you feel hate or love toward a race only shows individual shortcomings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
How exactly? By having the likes of North Korea and Iran scoff at him?Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
CR
For real. Obama is good at one thing though: bashing the USA in his speeches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Are you suggesting that insulting, dismissive rhetoric out of North Korea and Iran is a new development? Explain, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
-edit-
Freebie: 8/4/04 "North Korea yesterday called President Bush an 'imbecile' and 'a tyrant that puts Hitler into the shade' in a stream of insults that seemed to rule out any progress on nuclear disarmament talks before the US presidential elections. 'The meeting of the working group for the six-party talks cannot be opened because the US has become more undisguised in pursuing its hostile policy toward North Korea,' a foreign ministry spokesman told the state-controlled news agency. [...] Pyongyang's diplomatic spokesman called Mr Bush 'an idiot, an ignorant, a tyrant and a man-killer'. He added: 'Bush's assumption of office turned a peaceful world into a pandemonium unprecedented in history as it is plagued with a vicious circle of terrorism and war. The president's aides and allies are a typical gang of political gangsters'."
And I heard somewhere that throwing your shoe isn't the biggest sign of respect. But please, feel free to explain how North Korea and Iran have been more insulting in some new and ingenious way than they have always been.
Their rhetoric will remain insulting and dismissive regardless of what stance we take towards them, therefore there's no reason to play nice with them: they will not reciprocate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Relay? I thought he was saying the USAs government has maid mistakes not bashing the USA.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
No reason to play tough with them, they won't change their ways?Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
This is a non issue. Right wing people like to see their president act tough, left wing people like to seem him be "diplomatic". If it's just acting either way, what's the difference?
Oh, you'll be surprised by just how well the *stick* approach works. The problem is that when it comes to North Korea, *our* stick isn't long enough. China and Russia (if they had the will to do it), could easily choke Kim's regime within months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Thats easy to explain .Quote:
Are you suggesting that insulting, dismissive rhetoric out of North Korea and Iran is a new development? Explain, please.
When N.Korea previously did its "bugger off we can do what we like..but please send us food" line it was because they have this crazy shortarse running the country , but now when they say it its because of Obama .
When Iran said "bugger off , lift the sanctions and give us our money back " it was because they were pissed at America , now when they say " nice words , but we want action not words so bugger off , lift the sanctions and give us our money back" its because of Obama .
Surely you can understand that Lemur , after all it make perfect sense .
I think you missed my entire point Strike. My point was that I do not, and could not without hating myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
The G20 was a public relations exercise. There was no chance for anytihng to be achieved, merely for the world leaders to get together and see what their minions had been spending the last month or so working over.
If anyone thought that the whole world was suddenly going to change they were morons. The players at this level are not easily swayed hicks. They play the long game. Many don't bother with elections, so 8 years isn't that long either way.
Obama is opening talks with Cuba. The embargo is pointless and has no place. This is a good thing.
Obama has thawed things with Iran slightly. Carrot and stick are far better than just carrot. Talk is cheap, so why not?
Obama is trying to pull out of Iraq. About time!
And what's the problem of gravitas?
The Italians have a leader with hair staples and a perm-tan who manages to hold the world record for gaffes
The British have a dour, obstinate blind dictator who likes to try ot take the world view - especially when assigning blame to events that appeared to the casual observer to have occurred when he was Chancellor
The French a midget who has a mandate for change unless it affects jobs or the 15 hour week
The Germans rather fittingly have a leader of indeterminate gender who nevertheless could headbutt it's way through a wall.
China has a Leader Mk III4b clone who makes the head of the bank of England appear interesting.
Russia has a puppet
South Africa has a criminal.
Obama, you look quite good all things considered!
~:smoking:
He is not a dictator he was elected into parliament last election. Who ever leads the political party which is in power is not up to the public but members of that party just because no one in labour stood to challenge his election to leader of the labour party dose not make him a dictator.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
He is hated by everybody in the UK. I challenged anyone on these boards to defend this moron. The man not a menace, he's a disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerg
Not Zerg, I hasten to add. :oops: