Catholic Church in deeep water.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8060442.stm

All I can say is I'm shocked, yet some how I'm not surprised. Yet again an institution who's purpose is to protect the vulnerable in society can some how turn its back on those very duties and commit such disgusting abuses. What makes this even worse is that the Church hierarchy knew such abuse was taking place yet they chose not to do anything about it.

As many people here know, I'm critical of organised religion at the best of times, but this has really got me riled up. How can some one claim to commit themselves to a life of helping others and committing themselves to God and yet at the same time abuse an innocent child. If you read some articles the abuse is really quite shocking.

A lot of people refer to the Catholic church as the worlds biggest charity but I ask you this, how can a charity possibility have any credibility if it's leading members act like this? It seems the Catholic Church as an institution still seems to think you can get into heaven via indulgences and that being a good person isn't part of the deal..

Just disgusting. I'm not mad entirely at the Catholic Church for this, I'm also mad at Ireland for not prosecuting these scumbags.

It seems your problem is mostly with the Irish government for not prosecuting...they seem to be much more callous about the issue than the Church, as you can see here:

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The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, the Most Reverend Vincent Nichols, said those who perpetrated violence and abuse should be held to account, "no matter how long ago it happened".

"Every time there is a single incident of abuse in the Catholic Church, it is a scandal. I would be very worried if it wasn't a scandal... I hope these things don't happen again, but I hope they're never a matter of indifference," he said.

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I think every Catholic will agree with you that this is disgusting.

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It seems the Catholic Church as an institution still seems to think you can get into heaven via indulgences and that being a good person isn't part of the deal..

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Do you have any idea what indulgences or confession are?

Big. Jock. Knew.

A case of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland? That's hardly anything new, they'll never get true justice.

This story is 30 years old, it's in the news now because of the report.

I think the Catholic Church has already outlived its purpose on the world. Tear them down.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Do you have any idea what indulgences or confession are?

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Yes I do know what indulgences are. They were basically bits of parchment which could be purchased back in the 16th century which pardoned a number of sins. Lead to the 95 Theses after whichever Pope it was tried to use indulgences to pay for St. Peters Basilica.

Reason I mentioned that is because to me that sums up some parts the Catholic Church as an institution. By that I mean institutions which really aren't committed to the spiritual services to God.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Big. Jock. Knew.

A case of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland? That's hardly anything new, they'll never get true justice.

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Surely that leads to the question then of why on earth the Catholic Church is receiving such protection from the Irish government?

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

Yes I do know what indulgences are. They were basically bits of parchment which could be purchased back in the 16th century which pardoned a number of sins.

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Kind of right, but mostly not.

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By that I mean institutions which really aren't committed to the spiritual services to God.

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You're an atheist, are you not?

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Kind of right, but mostly not.



You're an atheist, are you not?

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How so? Please enlighten me to your true definition and sum it up in two lines preferably like I did.


And I'm more Agnostic than Atheist. It's not so much that I don't believe there is a God, more I don't really care. Also you should know I'm not trying to attack Catholics as individuals, I'm more highlighting my grievances with the Catholic Church as an institution.

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Originally Posted by tibilicus

How so? Please enlighten me to your true definition and sum it up in two lines preferably like I did.

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I'll do better. Link.

I have to say... nothing the Catholic Church does surprises me anymore.

Granted there are plenty of members, priests, and so on who have clean hands in all this, but there is a huge, widespread problem with the Catholic Church and their leadership and administrators. The irony of the "Sisters of Mercy" and "Christian Brothers" doing things that are downright Satanic, and having the widespread abuse covered up in "Secret Vatican Documents" dating back to the 1930's....

I really think the Roman Catholic Church has to go. No church which claims to worship God and Jesus should behave this way, and it goes all the way directly to the Vatican itself. Anyone who knew about this and didn't immediately come forward is, to me, exactly the same as the child molesters and abusers themselves. May they all be tossed in prison.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I'll do better. Link.

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Using Wikipedia is cheating!

maybe they were the Satanic Order of the Chattering Nuns of St. Beryl in disguise. although they seem rather tight lipped on the issue... nope, they're Catholic. :daisy:.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I have to say... nothing the Catholic Church does surprises me anymore.

Granted there are plenty of members, priests, and so on who have clean hands in all this, but there is a huge, widespread problem with the Catholic Church and their leadership and administrators. The irony of the "Sisters of Mercy" and "Christian Brothers" doing things that are downright Satanic, and having the widespread abuse covered up in "Secret Vatican Documents" dating back to the 1930's....

I really think the Roman Catholic Church has to go. No church which claims to worship God and Jesus should behave this way, and it goes all the way directly to the Vatican itself. Anyone who knew about this and didn't immediately come forward is, to me, exactly the same as the child molesters and abusers themselves. May they all be tossed in prison.

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Have you considered the possibility that reform has taken place?

That an organistion with One Billion members cannot be all Saints?

That there is no member of the Catholic heiarchy that was even ordained when the abuses take place?

It's liek saying, "Yeah, America owned slaves for a long time, the country is clearly rotten and needs to be destroyed."

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Have you considered the possibility that reform has taken place?

That an organistion with One Billion members cannot be all Saints?

That there is no member of the Catholic heiarchy that was even ordained when the abuses take place?

It's liek saying, "Yeah, America owned slaves for a long time, the country is clearly rotten and needs to be destroyed."

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Um... no reform has taken place. They are still protecting members and covering it up, today. Read the article.

An organization with top officials who know about this and do nothing... that's not the same as not being saints. That's patently obvious.

These abuses have been going on for decades, and this is just another example.

How did I know you would knee-jerk react and defend the church? There is no criticism that can be leveled at a religious organization and have it be legitimate to you, is there? It's in black and white.

Damn, dude.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Have you considered the possibility that reform has taken place?

That an organistion with One Billion members cannot be all Saints?

That there is no member of the Catholic heiarchy that was even ordained when the abuses take place?

It's liek saying, "Yeah, America owned slaves for a long time, the country is clearly rotten and needs to be destroyed."

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Don't let facts and a lack of ignorance get in the way of a good rant. :juggle2:

CR

Just because Hitler was bad, it doesn't make all Germans bad. :yes:

Baptists would never do those. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Um... no reform has taken place. They are still protecting members and covering it up, today. Read the article.

An organization with top officials who know about this and do nothing... that's not the same as not being saints. That's patently obvious.

These abuses have been going on for decades, and this is just another example.

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Exactly, a reformed institution is not afraid to expose it's past misdemeanours.

I always feel extremely sorry for ordinary catholics/ genuine clergy members when I read of such things however.

Yay!!!

Finally we Catholics can once again fulfill our purpose in life, being the members of the most evilest organisiation on earth, Pah! Dan Brown don't know the third of it!

Regularly I make fun of Muslims, Jews and Protestants, I make ill informed posts about religion constantly, but nothing will stop me for I know the full truth and everything but!


Oh, hey anyone heard of Vatican II? Good movie:2thumbsup:

C'mon guys lets go pelt retarded Catholics!!!

Well as we all know the head of the Catholic Church is not the Pope, who is merely a figure head. But the real head is actually the Giant Spider Queen who weaves intricate and complex designs (such as the right to Molestation and Covering it up) into a web of madness from whence nobody can escape.

All Hail the Spider Queen!

I feel for any and all people of faith who have nothing to do with this. I might be non-religious but I don't auto-equate religion with child molestation and abuse.

However, the lack of proper reform and lack of leadership by the Vatican on this makes me quite angry. I would not miss the Roman Catholic Church if it decided to take it's massive wealth and pay to be blasted into space to meet their God.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I feel for any and all people of faith who have nothing to do with this. I might be non-religious but I don't auto-equate religion with child molestation and abuse.

However, the lack of proper reform and lack of leadership by the Vatican on this makes me quite angry. I would not miss the Roman Catholic Church if it decided to take it's massive wealth and pay to be blasted into space to meet their God.

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Nah. but a billion others probabaly would.

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Surely that leads to the question then of why on earth the Catholic Church is receiving such protection from the Irish government?

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Because they did a deal with Bertie and his crooks , hand over prime development land to the State for Berties "business" friends to have for nothing and then get indemnity from prosecution . Well not exactly indemnity its just that the church won't have to pay because they nominally gave their assets to the State not the developers so its the State that has to pay ...which means its the taxpayers who will have to pay an since Berties legacy means taxpayers are getting in short supply it means there is no money to pay for any settlements .
So since it is the State that deals with prosecutions , the State which will have to fund both prosecution and defence and the State which will have to pay the penalties the State ain't gonna do bugger all .

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Originally Posted by Default the Magyar

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Nah. but a billion others probabaly would.

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More like a few millions.

An appalling case of abuse and complicity.

It does however make me think that if the Church wishes to survive as an institution, it must abolish celibacy, a most unnatural state of affairs, construed by the Church in the early Middle Ages so that it did not have to support priests' wives as well as priests, and which lies at the root of all these crimes.

The problem is that they're part of an organisation which preaches the so called "right moral behaviour". To me it seems that many Catholics aren't that bothered by these events and seem to accept them as an inevitable problem within the church. Even when scandals like this continue to pop up the number of
members in the church hasn't shrunk.

There's even bizarre stories of people knowing about Catholic hierarchy abusing young members in their own congregation and yet they still seem to stay loyal and don't want to demand any really reform for fear of going against Catholic tradition and teachings. I just don't get it, you wouldn't allow a headteacher to be appointed if you knew they had sinister intentions, yet this case has highlighted the church is prepared to do the opposite and defend its clergy, no matter how sinister their actions.

You wouldn't want a paedophile living on your road, so why are so many people cool with paedophiles running their church organisations?

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Um... no reform has taken place. They are still protecting members and covering it up, today. Read the article.

An organization with top officials who know about this and do nothing... that's not the same as not being saints. That's patently obvious.

These abuses have been going on for decades, and this is just another example.

How did I know you would knee-jerk react and defend the church? There is no criticism that can be leveled at a religious organization and have it be legitimate to you, is there? It's in black and white.

Damn, dude.

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The Catholic Church has a powerful heirarchy which makes it very difficult to report on your superiors. At the same the Roman Church, wrongly, adopted a "don't ask, don't tell, close ranks" attitude to abuses. Part of the problem is inherent in Roman doctrine, which emphasises harsh punishment on the one hand and forgiveness on the other.

So a priest is either let off, or defrocked, excomunicated, banned from communion for life and possibly denied the last rights. The Roman Catholic Church has a policy of trying to get as many souls into heaven as possible. In view of which, they dislike harsh punishments for anything other than heresy; in which they use as harsh a punishement as possible.

You are the one who has had a "knee-jerk" reaction, not me. The "top official" is the Pope, and you have to get past your geographical hierarchy and your Order to get to him. This has been a difficulty for about 500-700 years, and it stems from the creation of the Papal Curia as a monarchial court. The reforms enacted then were in order to allow the Papacy to tighten standards of pastoral care and conduct throughout the Church. Ironically, the measures backfired when it became possible for degenerates to hold Papal Office.

Unfortunately, the "Reformation" failed and this is still the situation we are stuck with.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

An appalling case of abuse and complicity.

It does however make me think that if the Church wishes to survive as an institution, it must abolish celibacy, a most unnatural state of affairs, construed by the Church in the early Middle Ages so that it did not have to support priests' wives as well as priests, and which lies at the root of all these crimes.

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To be fair, it wasn't about their wives (certainly not in England), it was about them grooming their sons to take over their benefices. The Church was turning into a second feudal aristocracy; and that was seriously damaging clerical standards of behaviour, pastoral care and education.

However, none of these are likely to become issues today.

I would say the best course would be to allow married Deacons to take higher Orders, I don't think priests should really be allowed to have girlfriends and "date". Personally I'm of the belief all priests should be married, as a life partner is an invaluable support in such a vocation; also, it helps to have someone else to run the Parish Bake Sale.

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Originally Posted by Christopher Burgoyne

I think the Catholic Church has already outlived its purpose on the world. Tear them down.

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we're a couple of hundred years ahead of you. :balloon2: