'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Repealed

Yay. :balloon2:

Quote:

---

'Don't ask' is repealed in historic vote

By Ed O'Keefe
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 19, 2010

The U.S. military will for the first time in history allow gays to serve openly after the Senate voted Saturday to repeal "don't ask, don't tell," the policy that has required such troops to hide their sexual identity or risk being expelled from the services.

While opponents said repeal would create a battlefield distraction that could endanger troops, supporters drew parallels to the military's decision to end racial segregation in the 1950s and the admission of women to military service academies in the 1970s.

"This is the defining civil rights initiative of this decade," said Aubrey Sarvis, executive director of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network. "Congress has taken an extraordinary step on behalf of men and women who've been denied their rightful integrity for too long."

For decades, being gay was grounds for discharge, and tens of thousands of service members were forced out after their sexual identities were exposed. President Bill Clinton, who had hoped to end that ban, authorized "don't ask" as a compromise in 1993. More than 13,000 troops have been discharged under the policy.


The years-long legislative debate over the policy came to an end Saturday as senators voted 65 to 31 to send the repeal legislation to President Obama, who campaigned on a pledge to eliminate the ban on gays serving openly. Eight Republicans joined 57 members of the Democratic caucus; four senators did not vote.

"It is time to close this chapter in our history," Obama said later in a statement. "It is time to recognize that sacrifice, valor and integrity are no more defined by sexual orientation than they are by race or gender, religion or creed."

The vote came after an exhaustive Pentagon review found that allowing gays to serve openly posed a "low risk" of disruption and that a large majority of troops expected that it would have little or no effect on their units.

Top Pentagon officials - who lobbied vigorously for repeal, in part because they feared that a court-ordered lifting of the ban would be far more disruptive - said Saturday that it would take months and perhaps longer to implement the new policy.

"We will be a better military as a result," said Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Clinton's effort to change the Defense Department policy that deemed homosexuality incompatible with military service was upended by resistance from top military advisers, Congress and the American public. The bill he eventually signed - enacting the policy officially known as "don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue" - was drafted in part by lawmakers opposed to gays in the military.

Yet public sentiment toward gays in the military has since shifted: In May 1993, just 44 percent of Americans believed gays who disclosed their sexual orientation should be allowed to serve in the military; now, 77 percent of Americans think so, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll released this month.

---

It is a shame that this came too late for the 13,500 men and women whose careers were cut short during DADT. :shame:

Go Obama. About time, must have felt really bad for gay soldiers having to hide it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Article

It will take months and perhaps longer to implement the new policy

---

What does that mean? How long can it take to remove a policy like that? Why would it take more than a single email? Are they trying to screw things up?

Probably want to do "special shower rooms" for the homosexuals, and other such nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

Probably want to do "special shower rooms" for the homosexuals, and other such nonsense.

---

Would women feel comfortable showering with men they did not know? Of course not, when someone is sexually attracted to you and you are not interested in them, or in this case, share no attraction, it is very uncomfortable to be exposing yourself to them and showering with them. Especially when men of the average recruiting age (and gay men in particular) have a reputation for being, shall we say, very forward, even when their attentions are not wanted.
Why then is it hard to understand why straight men would feel very uncomfortable with such arrangements, or want separate facilities?

No, contrary to what the media may say, it is not because they hate gays, or not even that they fear them (just as women don't hate or fear men, but wouldn't feel comfortable being made to shower with them), but are just uncomfortable exposing their naked bodies to people who will be attracted by them when they are not attracted to these people at all.

I am pretty sure that those wanting a career in the army and who are gay will not be there to eye up buff straight guys.

FFS, you're training to kill and with a bayonet if required. If you can't cope with a shower, perhaps a different career might be more suitable?

~:smoking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I am pretty sure that those wanting a career in the army and who are gay will not be there to eye up buff straight guys.

FFS, you're training to kill and with a bayonet if required. If you can't cope with a shower, perhaps a different career might be more suitable?

~:smoking:

---

Yes, and I am sure that those straight and bi men wanting a career in the army are not there to harass women, yet harassment and rape happen all the time. Don't BS rory, people are people, and when put together, they will do what people do.

Yes, you are supposed to be training to kill with with a bayonet, and not having to worry about harassment, rape, or some 18 year old with raging hormones trying to get close to you in the shower. It is very important to have strong platonic bonds with your fellow Marines if you are going to function correctly in combat. Putting men with women, or gay men with straight men disrupts these bonds and endangers everyone. I have nothing against gay guys serving in the military, but I do think that they should be housed and showered separate from straight men.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuk

Yes, and I am sure that those straight and bi men wanting a career in the army are not there to harass women, yet harassment and rape happen all the time. Don't BS rory, people are people, and when put together, they will do what people do.

Yes, you are supposed to be training to kill with with a bayonet, and not having to worry about harassment, rape, or some 18 year old with raging hormones trying to get close to you in the shower. It is very important to have strong platonic bonds with your fellow Marines if you are going to function correctly in combat. Putting men with women, or gay men with straight men disrupts these bonds and endangers everyone. I have nothing against gay guys serving in the military, but I do think that they should be housed and showered separate from straight men.

---

Can they pass the fitness and psych tests if the do and they have the required educational qualification then they should be allowed in the Army.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Can they pass the fitness and psych tests if the do and they have the required educational qualification then they should be allowed in the Army.

---

I never said that they should not be allowed into the Army. I said that they should be quartered separately, just as men and women are. There is a reason for it. You cannot have soldiers developing desires for soldiers who they are training and working directly with. It really disrupts things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuk

I never said that they should not be allowed into the Army. I said that they should be quartered separately, just as men and women are. There is a reason for it. You cannot have soldiers developing desires for soldiers who they are training and working directly with. It really disrupts things.

---

What are you proposing exactly? A separate building for every gay or bi soldier?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

What are you proposing exactly? A separate building for every gay or bi soldier?

---

Of course that must be what I am suggesting. After all, we must make new buildings for every individual female Marine as well.

Bollox.

Gay soldiers have showered with straight soldiers for decades. There haven't been a problem yet, there's no reason why there should be one now.

As has been said, have a little faith in your soldiers mental capacity.

Replace "gay" with "black" and that would have been gospel about 50 years ago.

As HoreTore states, those that are gay are still gay. Nothing has changed.

~:smoking:

He's a Yank dragging around some outdated cultural mores, give him some time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Replace "gay" with "black" and that would have been gospel about 50 years ago.

As HoreTore states, those that are gay are still gay. Nothing has changed.

~:smoking:

---

And it took almost 10 years for full integration to happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

As has been said, have a little faith in your soldiers mental capacity.

---

I don't think Vuk is a soldier, so its ok.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuk

Of course that must be what I am suggesting. After all, we must make new buildings for every individual female Marine as well.

---

The female soldiers aren't attracted to one another if they're straight, the gay ones are. So a building full of gay soldiers would disrupt things according to you.
Can't put them with the women either as the women could be attracted to them and that would disrupt things, no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Gay soldiers have showered with straight soldiers for decades.

---

Oh, at least as long as there have been showers, so a century or so. And gay soldiers bathed with straight soldiers for a few millennia before that.

Beside which, have you ever seen how fit young gay dudes are? We should be recruiting them, not kicking them out. Them boys are buff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuk

Of course that must be what I am suggesting. After all, we must make new buildings for every individual female Marine as well.

---

I'm inclined to believe that you did not understand me. Are you suggesting that, in order to accomodate homosexual soldiers, each individual soldier must have a building that is explicitly designed for a single individual? According to this plan, there are to be tens of thousands of micro buildings constructed. That's a bit excessive, don't you agree?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Bollox.

Gay soldiers have showered with straight soldiers for decades. There haven't been a problem yet, there's no reason why there should be one now.

As has been said, have a little faith in your soldiers mental capacity.

---

Are you kidding me? Most people joining the army are in a time of their life when they are almost completely controlled by hormones and their mental faculties are at their most vulnerable that they will be during any time in their lives. They have a LOT to deal with, and you should not seek to make it harder for them to be better soldiers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Replace "gay" with "black" and that would have been gospel about 50 years ago.

As HoreTore states, those that are gay are still gay. Nothing has changed.

~:smoking:

---

No, not at all. Quit trying to play the race card my little commie islander friend. It has nothing to do with not liking people or thinking that they are inferior. It is a completely different issue. And yes, they are gay, BUT, guys knowing that they are gay and them acting openly like they are gay WILL make people uncomfortable. Whether that is wrong or not on the side of straight guys, it is the truth, and it will negatively effect combat performance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

The female soldiers aren't attracted to one another if they're straight, the gay ones are. So a building full of gay soldiers would disrupt things according to you.
Can't put them with the women either as the women could be attracted to them and that would disrupt things, no?

---

The difference is that straight guys are not attracted gay guys, and yet gay guys are to them. Guess what? That is going to create conflict. It is just like married women being hit on by young guys, it does not make them comfortable because the attraction is NOT reciprocal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Beside which, have you ever seen how fit young gay dudes are? We should be recruiting them, not kicking them out. Them boys are buff.

---

Now that is just stereotyping Lemur. I know plenty of very unfit gay dudes (in fact, I only know one who is above average fitness. Most of the ones I know are either too fat, or waaay to skinny.) I also know tons of buffed straight guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

I'm inclined to believe that you did not understand me. Are you suggesting that, in order to accomodate homosexual soldiers, each individual soldier must have a building that is explicitly designed for a single individual? According to this plan, there are to be tens of thousands of micro buildings constructed. That's a bit excessive, don't you agree?

---

I was making fun of your statement CrossLOPER.

Despite your claiming to know "plenty of gay dudes" I'm not sure that you actually have met many gay people. Most don't "act gay" they are just normal people with different sexual preference to straight people, they don't go around hitting on anything with three legs. You my friend are the one stereotyping here. Segregating the gays is a silly idea.

On the original topic, I don't see why it should take months to "implement" a new "policy". They simply have to stop doing something they do now, this is the exact opposite of somthing that would take time to implement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by miotas

Despite your claiming to know "plenty of gay dudes" I'm not sure that you actually have met many gay people. Most don't "act gay" they are just normal people with different sexual preference to straight people, they don't go around hitting on anything with three legs. You my friend are the one stereotyping here. Segregating the gays is a silly idea.

On the original topic, I don't see why it should take months to "implement" a new "policy". They simply have to stop doing something they do now, this is the exact opposite of somthing that would take time to implement.

---

Really? Then explain to me why I have seen gays hitting on straight men before, had gay guys hit on me, and why there are three guys in my Taiji class who regularly wear shirts with things like "QUEER! BITCH!" written on them? Yeah, they do 'act gay' around dudes. (ei, act like someone attracted to someone), just like straight guys act differently around pretty women (typically called "being a boy") than they do their male friends.

There thousands of gays already in the army vuk,they are already taking showers with their straight buddies, and your soldiers doesn't seem to have any problems with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuk

Really? Then explain to me why I have seen gays hitting on straight men before, had gay guys hit on me, and why there are three guys in my Taiji class who regularly wear shirts with things like "QUEER! BITCH!" written on them? Yeah, they do 'act gay' around dudes. (ei, act like someone attracted to someone), just like straight guys act differently around pretty women (typically called "being a boy") than they do their male friends.

---

This sounds made up, unless you mistakenly wandered into a gay bar one day. Even by your own account though, you have been hit on by multiple gay guys and survived the experience. What makes you think our soldiers cannot?

Anyway, being gay doesn't make one act a certain way, and the gay people you seem to be concerned with - the more effeminate ones - probably aren't going to be looking to join combat units.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

This sounds made up, unless you mistakenly wandered into a gay bar one day. Even by your own account though, you have been hit on by multiple gay guys and survived the experience. What makes you think our soldiers cannot?

Anyway, being gay doesn't make one act a certain way, and the gay people you seem to be concerned with - the more effeminate ones - probably aren't going to be looking to join combat units.

---

No, it is not made up my NN friend. You obviously have never spent much time in Madison. Yes, of course you can survive it, but in situation in the military when people quite often have power over others, you do not think that it is a problem? Then why not have men and women bed together and shower together?

Do you know that the majority of those who express a strong dislike of homosexuals are actually ones having homosexual thoughts themselves? It is okay Vuk, you are safe here. No one here will think less of you if you wanted to be honest with yourself. we are a good natured, friendly, welcoming sort of people.

I remember a quote from a America soldier on the BBC news website about the issue, he said about some one who was known to be a homosexual in the unit, and said how he was the toughest b* word there (he said it in a complimentary fashion).

Also, I have no issue with men and women shower and bed together Starship Trooper style.

Oh, come on. Every job people have power over other people. That's no reason.

I'd be interested to see how many military personnel who had been in the Forces for years come out and have failed to mince to the range wearing a pink tutu and doing their nails instead of firing their gun.

~:smoking:

Men and women can't live together because it would cause sex. And officers are terrified of sex.

But as someone who isn't afraid of the sex, I have nothing against unisex showers. And just FYI, men and women share the same building in the Norwegian army, my room during my first 6 months was next to the females room, in fact... And during excercises we of course slept in the same tent.

And there's no chance of sex between a gay man and a straight man, so nothing to worry about for anyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

Do you know that the majority of those who express a strong dislike of homosexuals are actually ones having homosexual thoughts themselves? It is okay Vuk, you are safe here. No one here will think less of you if you wanted to be honest with yourself. we are a good natured, friendly, welcoming sort of people.

I remember a quote from a America soldier on the BBC news website about the issue, he said about some one who was known to be a homosexual in the unit, and said how he was the toughest b* word there (he said it in a complimentary fashion).

Also, I have no issue with men and women shower and bed together Starship Trooper style.

---

lol, that is BS people say to scare people away from opposing such things as gay marriage, etc.
Of course Beskar, you are operating under the assumption that I have a strong dislike of homosexuals. That is not true at all. I have friends who are homosexual and I know people who I seriously dislike who are homosexual. It depends on the person, and not their sexual preferences.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Men and women can't live together because it would cause sex. And officers are terrified of sex.

But as someone who isn't afraid of the sex, I have nothing against unisex showers. And just FYI, men and women share the same building in the Norwegian army, my room during my first 6 months was next to the females room, in fact... And during excercises we of course slept in the same tent.

And there's no chance of sex between a gay man and a straight man, so nothing to worry about for anyone.

---

No chance huh? That is like saying that there is no chance for a woman to have sex with a guy she is not interested in. The fact that she is not interested in him does not stop him from hitting on her and making her uncomfortable. Also, you are forgetting rape, which happens all too often by both straight and gay men. Women are uncomfortable is military settings because if their officer is a guy, they have control over them. Why would it be different with gay and straight men? Guess what, it has happened with the amount of gay men that are in the military now. It would happen even more so if more gays were in the military.
No, that is not to say that gays are rapists, but just like straight people, they have their rapists. Men and women do not bathe and sleep together in the Marines to try to cut down on rape and people's fear, because it is essential that people can trust each other. If that is wise, why would it not be wise to do with gays?

EDIT: And rape happens in the military (to men and women) a lot more than you would think. There have been some pretty disturbing statistics about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuk

I never said that they should not be allowed into the Army. I said that they should be quartered separately, just as men and women are. There is a reason for it. You cannot have soldiers developing desires for soldiers who they are training and working directly with. It really disrupts things.

---

Just because they are gay doesn't mean they are attracted to you, no need for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vuk

Why would it be different with gay and straight men? Guess what, it has happened with the amount of gay men that are in the military now. It would happen even more so if more gays were in the military.

---

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what is going to happen now that sexual orientation is not an issue, more gay people wont magically start flocking to the military, it's just that the gay people who are already in the military wont have to live in constant fear of being unceremoniously kicked out.