[Thureophoroi] How would you use them?

This isn't directly related to the RTW engine, but more of a historical question. As I understand it, the thureophoroi were something of an innovation that for a while no one was sure how to use. They were lighter than a phalanx, but heavier than a skirmisher, in between two categories. The later Seleukids apparently made good use of them, but whether that was actually in battle, or for garrison and raiding isn't clear. Pergamon apparently liked them a lot, too, but I find some of the battle reports they were involved in pretty confusing.

Reason I'm asking is that in my tabletop game, the players are going to be raising an army in the lands around Massalia, and the large mixed Celto-Hellenic population around the two forks of the Rhodanos (Rhone) are ideal in this sort of role. So if you had a large force of those sorts of troops, how would you employ them in the battle line?

Instinctively, I'd say use them as flank-cover/chasers, with as many heavy spearmen as you could manage to hold your centre. For other forces, I'd assume they could raise plenty of skirmishers from amongst the local Celts, and light and medium cavalry too. Apparently the Ligurians liked to hire themselves out too, and they might be able to get some Iberians if they were willing to transport them.

Any thoughts?

you answered your own question

the need for more flexibility after facing the kelts forced the hellenes to counter the kelts with their own heavy armed javelin throwing unit wich was also fast and flexible

in many ways i use the peltastai in the same way as i use my thureporoi in the end it´s mainly a matter of if you prefer spear or sword (altough in a few ambush scenarios peltastai skirmish hability can be more usefull and less usefull in a field batle against light or medium cavalry)

Personally I use them as my 'grunt' infantry. Jack of all trades, they are spread throughout my battle lines, providing the bulk of my forces. In the centre, they would provide the main battle line; in the flanks they would support the specialist units and cavalry (in fact, I find them very useful in screening cavalry). Behind them is where I place other heavier infantry as reserves.

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Originally Posted by moonburn

you answered your own question

the need for more flexibility after facing the kelts forced the hellenes to counter the kelts with their own heavy armed javelin throwing unit wich was also fast and flexible

in many ways i use the peltastai in the same way as i use my thureporoi in the end it´s mainly a matter of if you prefer spear or sword (altough in a few ambush scenarios peltastai skirmish hability can be more usefull and less usefull in a field batle against light or medium cavalry)

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So in a way, that style of unit is pretty ideal if you're going to be fighting Keltoi? Assuming they're going to have lots of javelin-throwers and good cavalry.

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Originally Posted by Basileus_ton_Basileon

Personally I use them as my 'grunt' infantry. Jack of all trades, they are spread throughout my battle lines, providing the bulk of my forces. In the centre, they would provide the main battle line; in the flanks they would support the specialist units and cavalry (in fact, I find them very useful in screening cavalry). Behind them is where I place other heavier infantry as reserves.

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Was that the way they were used by the likes of the Seleukids and Pergamon?

Are they solid enough to be front-liners against Kelts? I have a feeling that short of hiring a lot of mercenaries, hoplite-style infantry would be hard to come by. And besides, you probably want the centre of your line to be people you trust at least some.

Historically The EB-Thureophoroi are about as heavy as Thureophoroi would get. The sources are not quite clear about this but it suffices to say that thureophoroi(surprisingly easy to write once you get used to it^^) are often depicted without any Body armour.

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So in a way, that style of unit is pretty ideal if you're going to be fighting Keltoi? Assuming they're going to have lots of javelin-throwers and good cavalry.

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Well I would not call them direct "Counters" to celtic troops but If you don't have a Counter imitating your enemies fighting style is a valid choice. Thus If you are attacked by spearmen and your archers are crap you might aswell just Train better spearmen^^

If I recall correctly Ts were used a) to screen flanking troops such as Peltastai, cavalry or special troops, b) conduct Skirmishes against both Skirmishers and Heavy troops, being able to choose how to engage them c) Flank less mobile line troops themselves and d) to augment the Formation where needed.

They don't seem to be used as real line troops in Major battles and I don't think the "Greeks" used the Germanic/Roman System of the light meatshield during the Hellenistic period. They would probably prefer to use native troops such as Machimoi for those tasks ;)

when i started playing i just had 12 in each army and used the 3 lines sistem let them deplet their javelins throw them into the fray once they get tired or very tired pull them back behinde the 3rd line and move in the 2nd one

also works wonders in defense and their vast amount of javelins does make a serious dent on enemies with bellow average armour (3 lines add in peltastai or archers beteween the lines to increase the shock value ) imagine as you advance against them the amounts of javelins rainning down on you increasing most troops will be near breaking point at that stage so if you use it near a patch of trees imagine being surrounded by peltastai placing themselfs behinde you and hitting you on the back (the patch of trees ofc serves for cover to let the enemies go by without noticing your peltastai)

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Was that the way they were used by the likes of the Seleukids and Pergamon?

Are they solid enough to be front-liners against Kelts? I have a feeling that short of hiring a lot of mercenaries, hoplite-style infantry would be hard to come by. And besides, you probably want the centre of your line to be people you trust at least some.

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As Ca Putt have mentioned, EB Thureophoroi are on the heavier end of the spectrum. I'd say the more experienced, better armed, thureophoros would take the centre (with the real heavy infantry right behind them), while the (lighter armed) raw recruits would support the specialists and cavalry in the flanks (behind them).

I think it would be a good time to mention that the term thureophoroi literally meant 'door-holder', likely a generic term for infantry heavier than peltastai that uses the keltoi shield. AFAIK, the EB team plans to replace them with the Euzonoi in EBII, as well as other units.

Thureophoroi offered versatility on the field, they could react much faster than Phalangitai or Hoplitai, since they didn't require a solid formation...
They would operate on the flanks, in tandem with lighter Psiloi and cavalry, to screen the main infantry and impede flanking manouvers by the enemy. They were employed on rough terrains for example...
Theirs wasn't exactly a "counter to Keltoi", that is they weren't intented to go head to head with them and defeat them, but rather the adoption of the Keltic fast and independent infrantryman. Also the very Keltoi newcomers, more often than not, fought as Thureophoroi. The Aitolioi, who already had a tradition for individualistic shock combat, quickly adopted it too. These particular soldiers eventually grew into the Thorakitai, to cover the need of more close quarter action for the Thureophoroi. And later (1st cent BCE) in Syria, Mikra Asia and Aigyptos, the greater influence of Keltic settlers evolved the corp further into Spathaphoroi...

To sum it up, the Thureophoroi offered assistance on the flanks and quick tactical response. Depending on the soldiers' warfare tradition and/or lack of heavier contingents, they also grew into Thorakitai for prolonged melee, something the Thureophoroi could not do.

As for examples there are the Kappadokioi or Libyes (note the choice of people: highlanders and tribesmen, used to fight in loose formations and independently) being armed as Keltoi during the campaigns of Antiochos III, they were deployed next to the Phalangitai. In the case of Pergamon, the Mysioi and most likely the pastoral settlers from the Makedonian highlands fought as Thureophoroi/Thorakitai. Hellenistic mentality to battle formations, didn't take much into consideration the concept of reserves (something that Alexandros instead used), but envisioned an unbreakable, yet cumbersome line, whose only weakness were the flanks and that's where versatility was needed to protect it...

Are you sure that they will replace the Thureophoroi with Euzonoi? I had the feeling that unlike the rather prominent Thureophoroi the Euzonoi is only seldom mentioned in the sources. Thus the EB team wanted to supplement the Hellenistic armies with the latter. Probably not including both in every hellenic faction. If EB2 retains the "High-end-Thureophoroi" there is a viable place for the euzonoi, seeing as these are significantly lighter than the "door-bearers".

I think they're replacing the thureophoroi with more than one unit.

:clown: Door-bearers of different sorts! :clown:

If I was a Celtic general, I would counter your Thureophoroi army with Milites Ilergetum (5), Dunaminica, (5) Gaesatae (1) and Carnute Cingetos (1).

After my Iaosatae (2) have thrown all their stones I will advance my infantry in two lines. I have Remi Mairepos cavalry (4) to counter any of your cavalry and protect my flanks.

First line I will position my Milites Ilergetum to face your Thureophoroi. You will kill off many of them sure, but they are fodder. They are better than Bataroas because they carry an extra javelin and have better defense and only a tiny bit more expensive. Once in melee you may find yourselves at a disadvantage though because they are skilled with longswords. Your Thureophoroi will probably beat them off but just barely. I also have a Gaesatae to scare your men and Carnute Cingetos to inspire mine. My next line I will advance the Dunaminica forward to throw its javelins. Not only do they have the same number as your Thureophoroi, they are armor piercing. So you will definitely take casualties, and I am not aiming at your depleted Thureophoroi that threw all its javelins and fought off my Milites Ilergetum. My Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos have taken positions on either flank out of range from your Thureophoroi and protected by cavalry by my Remi Mairepos. As my Dunaminica start shredding apart your Thureophoroi. I move my Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos close to prepare to flank. My cavalry is screening them to get your cavalry to attack me. My Iaosatae are in reserve on the flanks too standing as light infantry. Any Milites Ilergetum that have regrouped have also been put on the flanks. At just the right moment I charge your cavalry to tie them up. Then my Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos are come around your sides, throw their javelins at your Thureophoroi's backs, and charge with the remnant Milites Ilergetum and Iaosatae. After the fog has settled, the Greeks remember that they are not as brave or as stout as the mighty Celts are in close combat. Only through tight formations of hoplites do Greeks stand any chance against the skill and ferocity of Celts.

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Originally Posted by Frtigern

If I was a Celtic general, I would counter your Thureophoroi army with Milites Ilergetum (5), Dunaminica, (5) Gaesatae (1) and Carnute Cingetos (1).

After my Iaosatae (2) have thrown all their stones I will advance my infantry in two lines. I have Remi Mairepos cavalry (4) to counter any of your cavalry and protect my flanks.

First line I will position my Milites Ilergetum to face your Thureophoroi. You will kill off many of them sure, but they are fodder. They are better than Bataroas because they carry an extra javelin and have better defense and only a tiny bit more expensive. Once in melee you may find yourselves at a disadvantage though because they are skilled with longswords. Your Thureophoroi will probably beat them off but just barely. I also have a Gaesatae to scare your men and Carnute Cingetos to inspire mine. My next line I will advance the Dunaminica forward to throw its javelins. Not only do they have the same number as your Thureophoroi, they are armor piercing. So you will definitely take casualties, and I am not aiming at your depleted Thureophoroi that threw all its javelins and fought off my Milites Ilergetum. My Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos have taken positions on either flank out of range from your Thureophoroi and protected by cavalry by my Remi Mairepos. As my Dunaminica start shredding apart your Thureophoroi. I move my Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos close to prepare to flank. My cavalry is screening them to get your cavalry to attack me. My Iaosatae are in reserve on the flanks too standing as light infantry. Any Milites Ilergetum that have regrouped have also been put on the flanks. At just the right moment I charge your cavalry to tie them up. Then my Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos are come around your sides, throw their javelins at your Thureophoroi's backs, and charge with the remnant Milites Ilergetum and Iaosatae. After the fog has settled, the Greeks remember that they are not as brave or as stout as the mighty Celts are in close combat. Only through tight formations of hoplites do Greeks stand any chance against the skill and ferocity of Celts.

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Uh, as I said, this isn't EB and they're not an all-thureophoroi army. It's about whether a thureophoroi-style force will work as the main line. They'll have supporting elements of archers, probably various Celtic levy skirmishers, a small hoplite phalanx and a fair bit of medium (Celtic) cavalry.

The Illergetai are close enough that someone might be able to hire a band of them, but most of the others are too far to the north (how are those Remi getting through the various confederations in between them and us?) or off deep into Spain. This game is in and around Massalia, in the far south of Gallia.

This is the the stack I was talking about. Not historical (for that region at least) but essentially fits everything Quintis mentioned.

Attachment 9544

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Uh, as I said, this isn't EB and they're not an all-thureophoroi army. It's about whether a thureophoroi-style force will work as the main line. They'll have supporting elements of archers, probably various Celtic levy skirmishers, a small hoplite phalanx and a fair bit of medium (Celtic) cavalry.

The Illergetai are close enough that someone might be able to hire a band of them, but most of the others are too far to the north (how are those Remi getting through the various confederations in between them and us?) or off deep into Spain. This game is in and around Massalia, in the far south of Gallia.

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Oops, I'm sorry. I was just going off of building an Aedui force from a united Gaul to Iberia. Well, the Thureophoroi are not best line troops there. Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai are the Celtic equivalents and I feel they are better. Better javelin range but with one less javelin. Better spear attack, same defense, are highly trained, a bit cheaper and have a denser formation. It also reflects Massalia as a ethnic melting pot of Hellenic and Celtic culture and arms. Just as your Massaliotai Hoplitai are a hoplite unit with a longsword and a hoplon, a most unique combination exclusive to that unit. It makes you think twice when charging them with short swordsmen, if they don't carry a falcata or kopis. Your better line units would be Hoplitai, Thorakitai, Thorakitai Hoplitai, Syrakosioi Hoplitai and Epilektoi Hoplitai. The Thorakitai Hoplitai, Syrakosioi Hoplitai and Epilektoi Hoplitai come from Sicily and Southern Italy but it's not unreasonable to see them in Massalia.

I tend to agree with basileus ton basileon in that they can be a very useful jack of all trades unit. I find myself using them in much the same way i would use a roman army. I keep them defensively positioned and tend to use them as both a light line in rough terrain as well as flank protectors. Their mobility allows them to fall back fairly easily to draw enemy infantry into a 'Cannae' style surround. I wouldn't use them as aggressive flankers since their lack of overly heavy armour can make them a little fragile against some shock forces. On the whole though, they are very good in many roles with a good balance to fit most things needed of them.

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Originally Posted by Basileus_ton_Basileon

This is the the stack I was talking about. Not historical (for that region at least) but essentially fits everything Quintis mentioned.

Attachment 9544

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What if you were going for something more historical? I'm guessing Keltohellenikoi/Thureophoroi as the main part (perhaps four units), maybe a unit or two of mercenary Hoplitai, two or three Gaeroas, a unit each of Iaosatae and Kretan archers, a couple of units of Curepos, one of Thracian mercenary cavalry, then your general.

That was actually my 'royal' army, I justified it by using all the proceeds from the thracian and athenian mines. If you want something more historical and standard, I would replace the hypaspistai with Hoplitai, while replacing the agrianikoi and tintanotae with galatikoi kurarophoroi and Gaeroas; yes a unit each of kretan and iaosatae. I'll replace the prodromoi with with Curepos, and the lonchophoroi with Brihenten/Lavotuxri. The Hetairoi could be replaced with more Thraikioi prodromoi, or anything else of your choice.

The key to this stack is the usage of thuerophoroi/keltohellenikoi hoplitai line in cohort with the cavalry. This is especially true for the keltohellenikoi hoplitai as you have less armour and is more reliant on the density of the line.

it may seem strange but playing with the KH and Baktria I didn't felt the need for thureophoroi or thorakithai except in provinces that can't recruit top phalanxes. Bot units look too much "average" too me. What I mean is, they are not classic lineholders nor barbaric close-combat fighters. So I prefer a combination of hoplitai and/or phalanxes flanked by ie Thrakioi Romphaiophoroi (I conquered practically all of Epeiros with the KH using this). With the Baktrians I used pezethairoi/kleruchoi in the center and whatever infantry I could recruit on the flanks (eastern axemen were awesome!). Personally I can see why thureophoroi and thorakitai were not widely deployed by hellenic armies, and I also can see why the Romans called them "imitations"... they were not actual imitations, but indeed they are like less powerful roman infantry. Just my opinion :)

Well in EB this IS the case, but mostly because Hoplite and Phalangite phalanxes are almost as mobile as thureophoroi, which does steal them their main Advantage. In reality These Formation would be much less mobile as a high degree of discipline and training would be needed to preform maneuvers like every Panda Phalanx or hapless hoplite can preform in EB. Not to speak of the 360° analogue turn the AI can pull off with engaged pikes.

In EB however that's how it goes as KH I often let my FMs attempt a Military Reform, thus All Cities of atto-rhodian alligience train Thureophoroi and reformed hoplites while the Pro-Pelloponienians do Hoplites and slingers. They normally fail at this Reform :/ and provide cavalry instead. Later, when they can field entire armies they retry with Thorakitai which is more successfull and I end up with one Traditional Hoplite army(with supporting armies of similar nature) in the west and a Thorakitai based army with lots of auxillaries and cavalry(with supporting armies of similar nature) in the east.

with KH (After uniting Hellas under my rule) I started kickin Seleukid butts with mid-size hoplite armies supported by peltastai, cretan archers and thessalian/xystophoroi cavalry. This way I also took out Pontos and pushed the border to Trapezous / Ani-Kamah / Antiochia, just to hold the Seleukids at bay. My defensive armies there was substantially a bulk of thureophoroi mixed with local troops (cappadocian hillmen, asian riders and the amazing caucasian archers) and the border was practically unpassable :D

Then I formed my western army to expand in southern Italy, Massilia and the two Spanish provinces... and that was exentially top quality hoplites (epilektoi, tarantinoi) + KH phalanx. As flankers I used mainly Thracian, Celtic or (in Italy) Hastati. Cavarly was as usually provided by Thessalia and some Prodromoi. When Sicily was tamed, I created another army of Syracusan Hoplites which are in my opinion one of the best KH units, and used them as flankers in my conquest of Italy (up to Arretium and Ariminum).

Historically speaking, I think I would have done the same :D barbaric or semi-barbaric units (thracians expecially, I LOVE the thracians and they were my fave faction in vanilla RTW) would have made much better flankers in my opinion. Expecially against the Romans, that can hack to shreds the more similar Thureophoroi/Thorakitai. And I think historically barbaric infantry would have been more mobile too! Of course that would imply a strong Hellenic domination over Thrace, which practically never happened...

I like to roleplay a lot with the KH, investing my Money in Huge fleets and ridiculous Buildings rather than more Epilektoi. I don't think I have a lot of those at all, mostly in my western(classical) Support armies as I can't give all of them Spartiatai. While my eastern armies normally have less hoplitesque elites.

I do like to use a lot of Thorakitai and Thureophoroi when playing other Hellenic Factions or parthains for that matter. mainly because I'm not quite that fond of Phalangites as the Successors were.

They ended up being an amazing cavalry screen in the MP mod. Fast enough to keep up with horses, javelins keep enemies away, spears counter cav.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

They ended up being an amazing cavalry screen in the MP mod. Fast enough to keep up with horses, javelins keep enemies away, spears counter cav.

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YES! Finally someone understands why I have so many cavalry on my suggested stack.

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Originally Posted by Basileus_ton_Basileon

YES! Finally someone understands why I have so many cavalry on my suggested stack.

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Don't you find having a lot of cavalry makes things rather easy?