[Thureophoroi] How would you use them?

[Frtigern]

If I was a Celtic general, I would counter your Thureophoroi army with Milites Ilergetum (5), Dunaminica, (5) Gaesatae (1) and Carnute Cingetos (1).

After my Iaosatae (2) have thrown all their stones I will advance my infantry in two lines. I have Remi Mairepos cavalry (4) to counter any of your cavalry and protect my flanks.

First line I will position my Milites Ilergetum to face your Thureophoroi. You will kill off many of them sure, but they are fodder. They are better than Bataroas because they carry an extra javelin and have better defense and only a tiny bit more expensive. Once in melee you may find yourselves at a disadvantage though because they are skilled with longswords. Your Thureophoroi will probably beat them off but just barely. I also have a Gaesatae to scare your men and Carnute Cingetos to inspire mine. My next line I will advance the Dunaminica forward to throw its javelins. Not only do they have the same number as your Thureophoroi, they are armor piercing. So you will definitely take casualties, and I am not aiming at your depleted Thureophoroi that threw all its javelins and fought off my Milites Ilergetum. My Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos have taken positions on either flank out of range from your Thureophoroi and protected by cavalry by my Remi Mairepos. As my Dunaminica start shredding apart your Thureophoroi. I move my Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos close to prepare to flank. My cavalry is screening them to get your cavalry to attack me. My Iaosatae are in reserve on the flanks too standing as light infantry. Any Milites Ilergetum that have regrouped have also been put on the flanks. At just the right moment I charge your cavalry to tie them up. Then my Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos are come around your sides, throw their javelins at your Thureophoroi's backs, and charge with the remnant Milites Ilergetum and Iaosatae. After the fog has settled, the Greeks remember that they are not as brave or as stout as the mighty Celts are in close combat. Only through tight formations of hoplites do Greeks stand any chance against the skill and ferocity of Celts.

[QuintusSertorius]

If I was a Celtic general, I would counter your Thureophoroi army with Milites Ilergetum (5), Dunaminica, (5) Gaesatae (1) and Carnute Cingetos (1).

After my Iaosatae (2) have thrown all their stones I will advance my infantry in two lines. I have Remi Mairepos cavalry (4) to counter any of your cavalry and protect my flanks.

First line I will position my Milites Ilergetum to face your Thureophoroi. You will kill off many of them sure, but they are fodder. They are better than Bataroas because they carry an extra javelin and have better defense and only a tiny bit more expensive. Once in melee you may find yourselves at a disadvantage though because they are skilled with longswords. Your Thureophoroi will probably beat them off but just barely. I also have a Gaesatae to scare your men and Carnute Cingetos to inspire mine. My next line I will advance the Dunaminica forward to throw its javelins. Not only do they have the same number as your Thureophoroi, they are armor piercing. So you will definitely take casualties, and I am not aiming at your depleted Thureophoroi that threw all its javelins and fought off my Milites Ilergetum. My Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos have taken positions on either flank out of range from your Thureophoroi and protected by cavalry by my Remi Mairepos. As my Dunaminica start shredding apart your Thureophoroi. I move my Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos close to prepare to flank. My cavalry is screening them to get your cavalry to attack me. My Iaosatae are in reserve on the flanks too standing as light infantry. Any Milites Ilergetum that have regrouped have also been put on the flanks. At just the right moment I charge your cavalry to tie them up. Then my Gaesatae and Carnute Cingetos are come around your sides, throw their javelins at your Thureophoroi's backs, and charge with the remnant Milites Ilergetum and Iaosatae. After the fog has settled, the Greeks remember that they are not as brave or as stout as the mighty Celts are in close combat. Only through tight formations of hoplites do Greeks stand any chance against the skill and ferocity of Celts.

Uh, as I said, this isn't EB and they're not an all-thureophoroi army. It's about whether a thureophoroi-style force will work as the main line. They'll have supporting elements of archers, probably various Celtic levy skirmishers, a small hoplite phalanx and a fair bit of medium (Celtic) cavalry.

The Illergetai are close enough that someone might be able to hire a band of them, but most of the others are too far to the north (how are those Remi getting through the various confederations in between them and us?) or off deep into Spain. This game is in and around Massalia, in the far south of Gallia.

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

This is the the stack I was talking about. Not historical (for that region at least) but essentially fits everything Quintis mentioned.

[Frtigern]

Uh, as I said, this isn't EB and they're not an all-thureophoroi army. It's about whether a thureophoroi-style force will work as the main line. They'll have supporting elements of archers, probably various Celtic levy skirmishers, a small hoplite phalanx and a fair bit of medium (Celtic) cavalry.

The Illergetai are close enough that someone might be able to hire a band of them, but most of the others are too far to the north (how are those Remi getting through the various confederations in between them and us?) or off deep into Spain. This game is in and around Massalia, in the far south of Gallia.

Oops, I'm sorry. I was just going off of building an Aedui force from a united Gaul to Iberia. Well, the Thureophoroi are not best line troops there. Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai are the Celtic equivalents and I feel they are better. Better javelin range but with one less javelin. Better spear attack, same defense, are highly trained, a bit cheaper and have a denser formation. It also reflects Massalia as a ethnic melting pot of Hellenic and Celtic culture and arms. Just as your Massaliotai Hoplitai are a hoplite unit with a longsword and a hoplon, a most unique combination exclusive to that unit. It makes you think twice when charging them with short swordsmen, if they don't carry a falcata or kopis. Your better line units would be Hoplitai, Thorakitai, Thorakitai Hoplitai, Syrakosioi Hoplitai and Epilektoi Hoplitai. The Thorakitai Hoplitai, Syrakosioi Hoplitai and Epilektoi Hoplitai come from Sicily and Southern Italy but it's not unreasonable to see them in Massalia.

[Blxz]

I tend to agree with basileus ton basileon in that they can be a very useful jack of all trades unit. I find myself using them in much the same way i would use a roman army. I keep them defensively positioned and tend to use them as both a light line in rough terrain as well as flank protectors. Their mobility allows them to fall back fairly easily to draw enemy infantry into a 'Cannae' style surround. I wouldn't use them as aggressive flankers since their lack of overly heavy armour can make them a little fragile against some shock forces. On the whole though, they are very good in many roles with a good balance to fit most things needed of them.

[QuintusSertorius]

This is the the stack I was talking about. Not historical (for that region at least) but essentially fits everything Quintis mentioned.

What if you were going for something more historical? I'm guessing Keltohellenikoi/Thureophoroi as the main part (perhaps four units), maybe a unit or two of mercenary Hoplitai, two or three Gaeroas, a unit each of Iaosatae and Kretan archers, a couple of units of Curepos, one of Thracian mercenary cavalry, then your general.

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

That was actually my 'royal' army, I justified it by using all the proceeds from the thracian and athenian mines. If you want something more historical and standard, I would replace the hypaspistai with Hoplitai, while replacing the agrianikoi and tintanotae with galatikoi kurarophoroi and Gaeroas; yes a unit each of kretan and iaosatae. I'll replace the prodromoi with with Curepos, and the lonchophoroi with Brihenten/Lavotuxri. The Hetairoi could be replaced with more Thraikioi prodromoi, or anything else of your choice.

The key to this stack is the usage of thuerophoroi/keltohellenikoi hoplitai line in cohort with the cavalry. This is especially true for the keltohellenikoi hoplitai as you have less armour and is more reliant on the density of the line.

[Picenian]

it may seem strange but playing with the KH and Baktria I didn't felt the need for thureophoroi or thorakithai except in provinces that can't recruit top phalanxes. Bot units look too much "average" too me. What I mean is, they are not classic lineholders nor barbaric close-combat fighters. So I prefer a combination of hoplitai and/or phalanxes flanked by ie Thrakioi Romphaiophoroi (I conquered practically all of Epeiros with the KH using this). With the Baktrians I used pezethairoi/kleruchoi in the center and whatever infantry I could recruit on the flanks (eastern axemen were awesome!). Personally I can see why thureophoroi and thorakitai were not widely deployed by hellenic armies, and I also can see why the Romans called them "imitations"... they were not actual imitations, but indeed they are like less powerful roman infantry. Just my opinion :)

[Ca Putt]

Well in EB this IS the case, but mostly because Hoplite and Phalangite phalanxes are almost as mobile as thureophoroi, which does steal them their main Advantage. In reality These Formation would be much less mobile as a high degree of discipline and training would be needed to preform maneuvers like every Panda Phalanx or hapless hoplite can preform in EB. Not to speak of the 360° analogue turn the AI can pull off with engaged pikes.

In EB however that's how it goes as KH I often let my FMs attempt a Military Reform, thus All Cities of atto-rhodian alligience train Thureophoroi and reformed hoplites while the Pro-Pelloponienians do Hoplites and slingers. They normally fail at this Reform :/ and provide cavalry instead. Later, when they can field entire armies they retry with Thorakitai which is more successfull and I end up with one Traditional Hoplite army(with supporting armies of similar nature) in the west and a Thorakitai based army with lots of auxillaries and cavalry(with supporting armies of similar nature) in the east.