I officially like this game now
Now this is going to be a very long, very subjective thread, so if you can't stomach that kind of goodie-noodie then save your soul and skip this one. But in light of the deserved rough reception of Rome 2 I felt like expressing my feelings towards the game at hand as of today.
I played the first Rome for a total of about 600 hours, give or take, and the only real modifications I had were a triple-cost/upkeep of all cavalry, chariots and elephants (should have just reduced their unit sizes, oh wise Jarmam) - other than that the game worked perfectly fine for me to enjoy it immensely for that long. I liked Shogun 1, I loved Shogun 2, but never clawed in more than 400 hours in each, so I might come off as somewhat forgiving to those of you that have sunk a tremendous amount of time into the various TWs. I have also never really played the multiplayer outside of a few MP campaigns in Shogun 2, so this part of the game being hopeless in Rome 2 as of now is something I dislike and hope will be looked into for the sake of those doing it. But I wont touch it here.
Some things have been taken care of in earlier patches, like unit formations sticking, UI updates, CPs changed etc. But I never really genuinely felt I "liked" the game in its then-current status. There was just so much to do and so little chance of it all being done.
The recent Seleucid patch did just about everything I still desperately wanted from Rome 2. Like a lot of people I hated the capture point system, and while I will admit that the ambush-solve to Forced March might never lose the feeling of being a "bandaid"-change, it still made those battles more tolerable. I like the macro-aspect of Rome 2 a lot more than most people seem to, balancing food, squalor, order, production sites, provinces and new conquests on what can feel like a knife's edge at higher difficulties. I love the faction variation, the various bonuses and starting locations for each faction and how different they feel compared to one-another (unlike Shogun 2, which admittedly didn't try to provide that feeling).
But my main issue with the game was the AI, specifically the campaign AI since the BAI was never the greatest in TW. Sure, you can mod it, but an AI is a lot harder to "fit right" for me than the cost of unit x, and the way the AI handles modifications to things like food and squalor can be quite difficult to predict and control if moved too far away from the "vanilla game" that the AI is designed around. The AI at release was hopeless - predictable and stupid, breaking down under its own weight right when the earlygame was about to end. This breaks the singleplayer, and unlike Spartan unit caps or Parthian unit skins this isnt something you can fiddle with and correct in a few hours. Diplomacy was also rubbish. As in: Non-functional. Nothing made sense in regards to diplomacy and I quickly gave it the "trade partner or enemy"-treatment since the AI could never really muster a defense once I got bigger than 3 provinces anyway so declare-war-away.
Now in regards to diplomacy there is still much to be done, but it feels a lot more intuitive now. I can ally myself with someone and... act like we have an alliance. People will trade with me if it benefits them greatly and we're not immediate enemies. The AI doesn't ask for 70.000 for a tradepact it breaks the next turn anyway anymore. And the weaker factions now actively seek my help against stronger enemies, going so far as to offer satrapy-status in return for a war-declaration of what could easily be a common enemy. Even better - the AI even attemps to kill me now! Sure, right now I am Seleucid and Seleucid is completely overpowered, but when the AI declares war it takes an actual fight to me. And it brings friends. And my friends fight their friends - constantly. Like... I wanted from the start. Even the Mark-for-Death diplomacy feature seems to work decently. Still not sure if the AI can tell you to bugger off when you use it, but it seems content to then actively assist me - if there's a potential gain or if its a satrapy. Else it does nothing, if I would have done nothing in its sitation.
I cannot stress enough how huge this is for the campaign singleplayer experience. Macroing your own empire can only be fun for so long when the rest of the world seems like a headless chicken that eventually lies down and stops moving after fluttering around for 40 turns (yes, chickens do exactly that). To add to this the BAI - while still not spectatular by any stretch - has recieved some great changes. The siege AI in particular was absolutely broken at release and for quite a while afterwards. Yes, its still kind of rubbish when it comes to reinforcing itself, but is it night and day when it comes to assaulting walls or settlements. It even uses tactics like trying a strong flank, taking walls, finding an angle of attack in the streets of settlements and so forth. Yes, it can still be outsmarted heavily, and yes, the predictability thing is still strong - but just going from "absolutely broken" to "decently functional" is really all I can ask from a TW game. I just want them to use their cavalry to wheel around and try to break my paper-line of Levies. And it really tries at times! Formation-based strategies and tactics surely aren't TW's BAI's strongest point - these games are much more suited for the Shogun 2 sort-of-clustersquabble due to the BAI - but I feel... effort... to tighten the AI on all fronts and I especially feel it where it seems successful, namely the CAI's decisionmaking.
Now as is obvious there are still flaws and a bundle of them for sure. Lack of family trees and consequently lack of care for my agents and generals due to dying-too-quickly or just being too irrelevant is still a problem, which is obvious when what I really care about is my Legions and their names and identities, rather than my potential world-overlords. The AI can still kill itself off due to lack of food or cash without provocation. Diplomacy is still scetchy at times. And a lot of balance decisions and gameplay functions are still confusing at best and frustrating at worst. But this is where the other massive part of this patch enter the scene: The Steam Workshop and how it has made modding a no-brainer for me. I love Valve for this system. I love Valve in general and have an altar dedicated to Gabe Newell posing in ways I would be banned for describing in this forum, but this in relation to Rome 2 in particular has reinvented the game for me. I want... slower replenishment, more turns per year, longer research time in general and tweaked objectives/win conditions. *Snap* - your wish is my command. Maybe a slight food buff for the AI - *snap*. How about a more damaging civil war? *Snap*. Gone are the days of editing every single bloody cavalry unit's cost and upkeep in the most tedious way possible, someone else has probably already done that for me or will in time. Can I get... family trees? *Snap*. Well, functional'ish they are! This has always been possible, but only in the Shogun 2 days has it been anywhere near as accessible, which is an egg in the basket for both game, player and modder. In a game with as many factors as Rome 2 this is so much more important.
The ease of modding and the way Steam tracks popular mods and trends combined are brilliant. CA, despite a borderline unacceptable lack of polish at release, have shown both will to listen and to change things. If the family tree mods, flaws aside, start dominating the Workshop, well, that's a pretty strong signal to the company of what people are sorely missing. The direct access to a vast array of mods for every single player out there might also be a bolster to an already fantastic modding community to continue to furthen their work (I refer to Skyrim as an example of the potential of this). And best of all this renders the debate we players can have on what is a sensible solution to the campaign less "must... find... common... ground", since it can be structured so flexibly to suit one's deepest desires (Emperor Gabe Newell). Again, there was always room for lots of good solutions, but the accessability-increase is huge. Just look at Shogun 2 and its additions for examples, and those (I believe) never sold anywhere near as well as Rome 2.
Now I admit that much of my recent near-falling-in-love has as much to do with the potential shown and granted by the patch as it is with the actual hands-on changes. Maybe Im a Star Wars Prequel-fan in denial due to wanting to like something so badly, because I will admit I really want to love Rome 2. But for the first time since release, mostly due to the aformentioned changes to CAI, BAI and modding, I feel like I can like it without any feeling of "maybe I want to love it more than I actually do". Still far from perfect, I am now convinced that I may soon come to percieve the product at hand as my favourite TW game. And goddammit, I expect nothing less from the game I've wanted since 2004.
Patch 5 :rtwyes:
Re: I officially like this game now
Always glad to read a positive post (including contructive critcism and feedback). I've been happy with the game since they removed the red skies and removed siege battle lag, and everything afterwards has made it better and better. Even if development stopped right this instant It would be on par with Rome 1 for me. Sure it lacks a family tree and seasons but it has a lot of other things.
And if anyone tries to convince me that patch 1.5 CAI and BAI are worse than Rome 1's "let me blockade that port for you", "fear the might of my endless 2 peltasts stacks" and "my general shall charge at your pike phalanx! Woe upon you!" then they are delusional. Rome II is a great game for me and as it is right now I could probably sink hundreds of hours in it untill i get bored with all the factions and variations.
With a few more patches and DLCs Rome II will earn the title of best strategy game. It has it already but I think those were ahem... purchased a bit prematurely. But we have to blame some marketing nerd for that. The actual people who develop and make the game are die hard Total War fans like us and they've been giving us what we want, and then some.
I think the herd mentality online is a dangerous thing. As soon as hating CA and calling anyone who enjoys Rome II a "CA apologist" becomes the new cool thing to do, all the 14 year olds jump on the bandwagon and start doing it. Soon, everyone is doing it because that's how we fit in the online community, right?
But, to gauge the true worth of Rome II, imagine you got it right now, post Nomadic Factions DLC at launch in September. How much would you love it? I daresay most of us would be singing high praises and sacrificing to Wodanaz or Mars.
Re: I officially like this game now
I feel, I agree with all the points of the OP regarding patch V. My biggest issue with patch V is that the bug causing the game to stall to a crawl in rain is back, lol. Especially since the usual workaround of tabbing into the tactical overview does not work on legendary.
Re: I officially like this game now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Slaists
I feel, I agree with all the points of the OP regarding patch V. My biggest issue with patch V is that the bug causing the game to stall to a crawl in rain is back, lol. Especially since the usual workaround of tabbing into the tactical overview does not work on legendary.
Oh yeah, I had this last night when doing some custom battles to see which HA unit is the best.
Re: I officially like this game now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Myth
Always glad to read a positive post (including contructive critcism and feedback). I've been happy with the game since they removed the red skies and removed siege battle lag, and everything afterwards has made it better and better. Even if development stopped right this instant It would be on par with Rome 1 for me. Sure it lacks a family tree and seasons but it has a lot of other things.
And if anyone tries to convince me that patch 1.5 CAI and BAI are worse than Rome 1's "let me blockade that port for you", "fear the might of my endless 2 peltasts stacks" and "my general shall charge at your pike phalanx! Woe upon you!" then they are delusional. Rome II is a great game for me and as it is right now I could probably sink hundreds of hours in it untill i get bored with all the factions and variations.
With a few more patches and DLCs Rome II will earn the title of best strategy game. It has it already but I think those were ahem... purchased a bit prematurely. But we have to blame some marketing nerd for that. The actual people who develop and make the game are die hard Total War fans like us and they've been giving us what we want, and then some.
I think the herd mentality online is a dangerous thing. As soon as hating CA and calling anyone who enjoys Rome II a "CA apologist" becomes the new cool thing to do, all the 14 year olds jump on the bandwagon and start doing it. Soon, everyone is doing it because that's how we fit in the online community, right?
But, to gauge the true worth of Rome II, imagine you got it right now, post Nomadic Factions DLC at launch in September. How much would you love it? I daresay most of us would be singing high praises and sacrificing to Wodanaz or Mars.
This is a pretty important point that I like. Naturally its impossible to de-experience the release problems, but if I were to have gotten the game at hand today as the first contact with the product I would probably feel quite satisfied, if perhaps a little nervous for how future support would work. You can tell by now that there are people working on this game that have a love for what they're doing and what they're making. Sure, I can go on about how much I would have liked them to have a few more months of polishing, but Im content due to them working quite extensively post-launch to polish what they can. The open-beta-analogy isn't terrible. Maybe CA should look to Ubisoft's development of Heroes 6 as inspiration? A pre-order of that game (if you didn't get it otherwise) gave access to a pretty long "closed" beta to locate problems like exactly what Rome 2 suffered from a month ago. The whole "post-release-we'll-fix-it-when-we-fix-it-now-bugger-off"-thing took some of the shine off, but you can't flack CA for doing something like that. Now re-introducing gamebreaking bugs like rain-freezing... that's bad. Or clumsy if you will.
Its also quite true that in terms of AI Rome 2 is already leaps and bounds ahead of Rome 1. The trick is to manage what to expect from development in the 9 years between the game versus how much hype-spiralling you might have inflicted upon yourself. I know Im prone to the latter (so await a 10 page complaint thread about XCOM: Enemy Within and Thief 4 in the games forum!), but having some expectations towards improvement should be possible. Of course the strategic part of the game is quite a bit more complex in Rome 2, which does strain the AI a bit, but still... well, it has really been improved lately, so here's to the best in the future!
I already sacrifice to the current glory, but, as mentioned, it goes to Newell's altar. Im heretic like that.
Re: I officially like this game now
Oh wow... Don't get me started on Thiaf/Teef :wall: I've been a fan of Total Wars since I came late to the party with Rome 1 around 2010.
With Garrett? Things are different there. I grew up with the guy. I played the TDP demo on my first computer, oggling at the 14'' ProView monitor (also known as "ProRadiatonEmitter") and listening to the guard's banter and footsteps. If I'm a TW fan then Thief is in my blood and soul. And the scary thing is that NuThief is being develped for the drooling console masses with contextual climbing and rope arrows, headshot XP (glad they got rid of that!) and a new goth Garrett with a new voice actor.
I'll still play the game but whilst I see the positive in Rome II because the core of what makes Rome TW a good TW game is still there... I'm getting the feeling that what makes Thief a good Thief game won't be there for the new title.
/OOC off
Also, paging @Vuk and @frogbeastegg since they're Thief fans too!
Re: I officially like this game now
Yes! Fellow thievers! I nearly wet myself back when I played Thief Gold in... 1999 I believe? and encountered a zombie in the Cragscleft mines for the first time. To make matters worse, right after that funny little unexpected encounter - the power went out! And it was 3 in the morning. Holy creepout, not even Amnesia has gotten me as badly as that scare :p
I was also quite worried at first, and to be honest I still am, since Thief 4 seems to take some inspiration from Assassin's Creed and a lot from Dishonored, neither of which I percieve as having anything on Thief's gameplay. Making it a remake instead of a sequel was the best choice, since it freed up the developers to fiddle around with exactly things like the VAs and who Garrett is. But Im honestly not that hyped. I just hope the gameplay part of Thief 4 will make it worth my buck, because they sure seem to have missed the mark on the character front. Even Deadly Shadows did pretty well there, and that held the game tight enough for me to still like. The new black nailpolish and sweeping-Im-a-badass-declarations make me think of a lot of things, but Garrett isnt one of them. And I hope its a lingual mess-up thing that the developers refer to "gothic" in terms of the visual style of the City, while showing images of Garrett in his fancy new make-up behind them. Has the masterful presenter of knowledge that is QI taught us nothing?
"Generally speaking the difference is that emos want to kill themselves, while goths want to kill everyone else" - Stephen Fry
And Garrett might be misanthropic, but I was never in doubt that most of all he just wanted to be left to play with his sock puppets away from everyone. Being "indifferent" towards everyone and everything for most of the first game and a half is part of what made him great.
Better go read up on the latest news on that game. Hopefully we have a 100+ page thread on it in the Arena to continue talking. And if it isn't called something with the phrase "Bear Pits" in it I will disown it and make my own.
Re: I officially like this game now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jarmam
This is a pretty important point that I like. Naturally its impossible to de-experience the release problems, but if I were to have gotten the game at hand today as the first contact with the product I would probably feel quite satisfied, if perhaps a little nervous for how future support would work.
I actually came in on the day of patch 4, and yes, actually, I have no experiential knowledge of the release problems. Consequently, I find this to be one of the better TW games I have ever played. Period. Of course, I am well versed in managing expectations and being able to work with what flaws are present. I don't get too worked up at that.
Of course, I come from an era where, while playing Might and Magic I, you choose left, you are fine, you choose right, you are flamed by a dragon that does 1000 HP damage to your 15 HP character. There was nothing to tell you there was danger, and nothing to help you remember. You just have to reload (better hope you saved or lost 2 hours of playtime!!) and remember manually...remember in analog?...write it down? Oh yes, that is right, we always had grid paper handy to scrawl out the map, block by block. Kind of like when playing D&D version 2...
Edit: In fact, it is interesting to watch some Let's Play on youtube from day 1. I am watching (bored at work) El Bandito and his Epirus campaign. You know, it runs well, the AI isn't completely embarrasing itself and he is having a great time, seemingly oblivious to any negative connotation about this game. Of course, he lives in Mongolia and is probably away from the ridiculousness that is the American gaming community (can't speak for other countries, they may be just as bad, I don't know). But ya, had I watched this on release day, I totally would have bought it without a second thought.
Oh, and this guy is awesome. Completely, so if you want to watch a Let's Play, watch El Bandito. He's classic.
Re: I officially like this game now
Trust me, you don't want to get me started on the pile of stinking dog crap that is Thi4f!
Re: I officially like this game now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vuk
Trust me, you don't want to get me started on the pile of stinking dog crap that is Thi4f!
Do you post on TTLG? I've long since given up on the official forums. Too many kids asking for Assasin's Creed this and Dishonored that. Trying to explain how walking the tightrope in Life of the Party made my heart stop because Dark Engine is evil and unforgiving and a single nudge in the wrong direction would send one falling to their death is useless. They want their "hold down A+X+Up to freerun" assisted climbing...
Re: I officially like this game now
I used to post on TTLG under a variety of different usernames, but I have given up for the most part. Unless I get enough money to start my own studio and buy the rights, I have given up on a good classic ever being made.
Re: I officially like this game now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Myth
When the game was first announced my reaction was cautiously hopeful. I started to worry a bit when the whole thi4f thing started, but hey, that's only marketing, right? After watching a few of the gameplay demos earlier this year I wrote the game off. It might turn out to be a good game in its own right but it's not a game I have any desire to play. Given the amount which they have changed, they might as well have started a new IP like Arkane did with Dishonoured. I can't believe that the Thief brand has all that much weight outside of the small pool of existing fans. Said fans are only going to be upset by changes to the formula. I do not see what they are gaining except for a deal of unnecessary ire. As a new IP it would be free of baggage and could head in whatever direction the developers wished.
Re: I officially like this game now
I agree with that, though I'm not sure what Dishonored is inheriting (though Puarh is on the level design team, so the Thief influence is heavy in that game. The Boyle Manor mission reminds one a lot of LOTP).
Well. I hear the Dark Mod is stand alone now. I'll have to try a FM for that.
Re: I officially like this game now
I haven't played Dishonoured yet, it's on my to-play pile. It came out when my father was seriously ill and over a year later he's still recovering so I've not had much time for games. Based on what I've read, Dishonoured picks up a few choice ideas from other stealth titles, and then adds in some core ideas of its own to create a new gameplay identity. Dishonoured it its own thing. If this Thief had done the same people would be looking at it with different expectations and in a different light, and the developers might have had room to add in something fresher than canned kill animations.
Re: I officially like this game now
I can think of two halfheart-plausible explanations for why they're remaking Thief instead of making something different:
1. A lot of game creative geniuses cite Thief as one of their games of inspiration - maybe they're "into it"?
2. Sequels and remakes are more abundant than ever. Its just easier to base a game off of something established, and brand recognition, however small it probably is in the general audience, is still something to go by.
Also its not a sequel because... I can't wrap my head around how they want to sequel Deadly Shadows while going on the Garrett.
Its tough to be optimistic about Thief 4. The most promising thing was an interview with some of the guys deep in development. I could feel the love through my headphones. Too bad love isnt an employee in level design or writing.
What I must say I admire Dishonored for is that the setting is "its own". Not original-original, but at least its own little world, and I kind of liked it. It was neat to go adventuring in something that felt a bit fresh. Also the Manor mission was great, except for the completely baffling "non-lethal" option which was bollocks on a stick. And it was too small. And there was no Stephen Russell mocking Stephen Russell. So whats the point, I ask of thee?!
Re: I officially like this game now
I've enjoyed the game overall. I hope they get the Siege AI working a little better but other battle (and campaign) aspects of the game are looking much better than at release.
Re: I officially like this game now
I also enjoyed the game to. The sieges are awesome here!
Re: I officially like this game now
There I've been wondering if I could dare starting a thread about the post-patch-5 game and there was this one all along. Thanks Jarmam.
In case any CA staffers are reading this, can I just echo all the negative comments on all the forums. You guys need to get your fingers out and give us all the game that we deserve and not the pile of wombat doo-doos that you served up. So off you go and keep working.
[They've gone now?]
Since patch-5 this game has been *fun*. Not perfect, not even not annoying at times. Flawed, frustrating, less than it could be. I'd like to fight a battle in the rain but I don't have 9 years (meat time) free to do so. But otherwise fun. I've played a game to its end as Rome (Julia, VH). And now another as Egypt (VH) on turn 180 or so. I've lost a couple of battles, though the BAI is still pretty awful and less challenging than MTWI (the best IMHO). But the CAI at least produces some challenges and even when it fails, I've had fun.
Did I mention that I've had fun?
Re: I officially like this game now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jarmam
Formation-based strategies and tactics surely aren't TW's BAI's strongest point - these games are much more suited for the Shogun 2 sort-of-clustersquabble due to the BAI
I always thought formation-based tactics were the essence of a TW game but perhaps I am thinking of the orginal game engine and not warscape. One of the main criticisms of the R2TW gameplay experience are exactly those "clustersquabbles" or blobbing in the battle engine that you allude to. Is it not fairly damning if you are suggesting that the engine isn't realy good at maintaining formations? I suppose you are just stating a fact - warscape is struggling with those issues.
I have read and received feedback on other sites that the recent patches have actually reduced the blobbling and formations are now more readily maintained. This is all good news.
Re: I officially like this game now
Quote:
Originally Posted by
durnaug
I always thought formation-based tactics were the essence of a TW game but perhaps I am thinking of the orginal game engine and not warscape. One of the main criticisms of the R2TW gameplay experience are exactly those "clustersquabbles" or blobbing in the battle engine that you allude to. Is it not fairly damning if you are suggesting that the engine isn't realy good at maintaining formations? I suppose you are just stating a fact - warscape is struggling with those issues.
I have read and received feedback on other sites that the recent patches have actually reduced the blobbling and formations are now more readily maintained. This is all good news.
I am mostly referring to the Battle AI in that segment. In a player-vs-player situation it is quite different. All of this is from a single-player-perspective. The unit formations sticking together within individual units has indeed been overhauled and made much better, but what I mean by "formation" in this context is your army or segments of it (aka a line of infantry that operates as a line or a hex-grid to optimise the efficiency of the army as a whole) - something the Battle AI has had problems with since at least Rome 1. With phalanxes and pikes and such this is absolutely critical. While its not irrelevant in a game like Shogun 2 it isn't nearly as damaging to the army if the overall army formation isn't cohesive when engaging when compared to Rome.
