Catalonia

Over the last few years, various Catalonian politicians have been pushing the idea of a referendum for independence from Spain.

On Thursday, the regional parliament voted that referendum will be held in 2017, with or without Madrid's approval. The central government has so far maintained that Catalonia isn't allowed to hold a referendum, let alone secede because the Spanish constitution doesn't allow it.

A July poll has Leave slightly ahead, 48 to 42%.


It is interesting, the people's tendency to blame someone else when things go south.

Show me a country who's constitution has a framework for regional succession built in from jump? Legitimately asking, I can't think of one. I think they need to have a referendum and get it out of their system. Not matter how it goes. But with the problems in the central government this light just lead to a bigger mess.

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Originally Posted by lars573

Show me a country who's constitution has a framework for regional succession built in from jump? Legitimately asking, I can't think of one. I think they need to have a referendum and get it out of their system. Not matter how it goes. But with the problems in the central government this light just lead to a bigger mess.

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Even the USA, which by the nature of its founding by the "several states" SHOULD have had such a procedure, did not include it in the Constitution. That was actually part of Lincoln's legal stance at the time of the ACW, that the Southern states had now right to secede.


Catalan separatism -- and the upcoming referendum -- even made it to our NPR news via the BBC hour. I predict that they will vote to secede. I have no idea if they can make a real go of it as an independent country.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

On Thursday, the regional parliament voted that referendum will be held in 2017, with or without Madrid's approval.

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They had one in 2014. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catala...ferendum,_2014
And?

This one is going to be just another wish-wash.

Given that Lichtenstein somehow manages to cope, and Catalonia gives a lot more money to Spain than they receive they would be fine - unless the rest of Spain and the EU spitefully tries to punish them for not realising that all right minded people want to be part of one mass and anyone that disagrees is an Enemy of the People.

Democracy is all about choosing one leader from a pre-set group, not about stating that you'd like a different structure altogether.

~:smoking:

Yeah, Catalonia is both the literal and financial breadbasket. The question isn't how they'd cope, it's how the Castilians would cope, because you can bet Basque Country would be next to leave, followed by Valencia.

For that reason Madrid isn't going to let this happen in the current climate.

What if the greater London area left? Or Bavaria? What if Rotterdam left the Netherlands?

All this "we are rich, so let's leave the poor people behind to enjoy our riches more" is starting to get on my nerves, greedy *insert insult*... :sweatdrop:
There was a time when this was so bad that the poor people began to hang or behead the rich ones, have we not learned anything from history?

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Originally Posted by Husar

What if the greater London area left? Or Bavaria? What if Rotterdam left the Netherlands?

All this "we are rich, so let's leave the poor people behind to enjoy our riches more" is starting to get on my nerves, greedy *insert insult*... :sweatdrop:
There was a time when this was so bad that the poor people began to hang or behead the rich ones, have we not learned anything from history?

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Globalisation has exposed to the rich that they are more similar to each other than to the poor people surrounding them. Building the EU has accelerated this process, so that the Nation States are under greater strain than they have been in centuries as the urbanised centre of each State benefits from the EU, and globalisation, whilst the peripheral regions do not.

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Originally Posted by Husar

What if the greater London area left? Or Bavaria? What if Rotterdam left the Netherlands?

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London or Rotterdam can't boast of any history separate from the whole country, rather the country was formed around them. Besides, there is no separate Rotterdamese or Londonese ethnicity/nation or language.

Bavaria is a different story, but they still can't claim to have a different language or culture. Catalonia is lucky (or unlucky, depending on your point of view) to have all of those, so it is not about economy (or not only about economy).

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Globalisation has exposed to the rich that they are more similar to each other than to the poor people surrounding them. Building the EU has accelerated this process, so that the Nation States are under greater strain than they have been in centuries as the urbanised centre of each State benefits from the EU, and globalisation, whilst the peripheral regions do not.

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Who are the rich? I'd say that is hogwash because the rich already knew that before globalisation.
The problem is that the poor don't get the same thing and do nothing against it. Globalisation is not a problem, the poor refusing to take part in it and use it to their advantage, that is the problem. Since even the poor can afford to have internet access, they can potentially benefit from it more than the rich because the rich could coordinate better than the poor before the internet and have basically lost that advantage.

Too bad that the poor hate eachother between countries while the rich trade, cooperate and suck the poor dry while they're busy with infighting. And to just state that cities are rich and countryside poor seems incredibly wrong. Maybe it works somewhat in the UK where London is the only thing people call a city, but there are plenty of poor cities around.

Whether the EU accelerated the discrepancy between rich and poor is not clear at all, plenty of theories say that the information age did that because the invention of robots, computers and IT in general has shifted the focus from human capital to merely capital in order to produce something. Meaning rich people depend less on workers to be able to produce something, earn more money, etc. Now given that the formation of the EU and the advance of IT fall roughly into the same time period, I might as well argue that the EU slowed that process down a bit given that international corporations cannot play one european nation against another as much anymore, see the EU telling Ireland that it cannot host corporations for close to or actually zero tax.

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Originally Posted by Husar

What if the greater London area left? Or Bavaria? What if Rotterdam left the Netherlands?

All this "we are rich, so let's leave the poor people behind to enjoy our riches more" is starting to get on my nerves, greedy *insert insult*... :sweatdrop:
There was a time when this was so bad that the poor people began to hang or behead the rich ones, have we not learned anything from history?

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I was out of action for a week, when I get back husar is echoing what I've been saying for 3 months.

The hell did I miss?

Three cheers for the balkanization of Europe!

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

I was out of action for a week, when I get back husar is echoing what I've been saying for 3 months.

The hell did I miss?

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Except that you supported the Brexit and for me it is basically the same thing...

Opinions on new developments?

We have a thread for this, no need to clutter Brexit thread.

Still against more balkanization. They can have some regional stuff in the EU superstate, but they cannot just leave their nation state until it is absorbed/replaced/turned into a larger province by the EU. Even if the Spanish government made a mistake in beating people, that does not give Catalonia the right to secede.

It might be helpful if the EU were to negotiate, as a neutral player, in order to find a way for them to be friends again without Catalonia getting to be greedy about its money. Wealth concentration is nothing to be proud of, it merely means you raised the cost of living to the point all poor people had to move out. To then say you want to secede because you don't want to pay for the poorer regions is just greedy and injust.
The whole "but they're killing our culture!" is quite funny when you have at least 23 Mc Donald's in your city...

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Originally Posted by Husar

Still against more balkanization. They can have some regional stuff in the EU superstate, but they cannot just leave their nation state until it is absorbed/replaced/turned into a larger province by the EU. Even if the Spanish government made a mistake in beating people, that does not give Catalonia the right to secede.

It might be helpful if the EU were to negotiate, as a neutral player, in order to find a way for them to be friends again without Catalonia getting to be greedy about its money. Wealth concentration is nothing to be proud of, it merely means you raised the cost of living to the point all poor people had to move out. To then say you want to secede because you don't want to pay for the poorer regions is just greedy and injust.
The whole "but they're killing our culture!" is quite funny when you have at least 23 Mc Donald's in your city...

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I have to disagree with you on this. If Catalonians dont want to be part of Spain, why should they be? More i think about events such as Catalonia, Scotland and for example Kurdistan, more i start to ask myself, if people who hail from long standing federal states like US or Germany or in a bit different sense the United Kingdom, can they really value self determination of a smaller group of people that wants to self govern?

This same thing might be also issue with EU. Lets say a Catalonian in EU is represented by Spanish government that he does not relate to as his own representative. Would it be a big surprise if he might easily become anti EU as he lacks the empowerment even at National level. In my opinion Balkanisation is not about new countries emerging from people who do not identify themselves as part of their current countries, but from creating federal states from peoples that are reluctant at being part of a single entity. In matter of fact as EU´s main problem is that the level of democracy is not acceptable with European parliament only being an advisory body. It might be easier for it becoming an representative body, if the federal states among EU would be dismantled. Funny idea?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Still against more balkanization....The whole "but they're killing our culture!" is quite funny when you have at least 23 Mc Donald's in your city...

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If that is your standard for no longer being able to assert your own cultural identity, then McDonalds has already won, so perhaps your superstate should be The Golden Arches.

Who knew world government would end up thus...

:creep:

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

I have to disagree with you on this. If Catalonians dont want to be part of Spain, why should they be? More i think about events such as Catalonia, Scotland and for example Kurdistan, more i start to ask myself, if people who hail from long standing federal states like US or Germany or in a bit different sense the United Kingdom, can they really value self determination of a smaller group of people that wants to self govern?

This same thing might be also issue with EU. Lets say a Catalonian in EU is represented by Spanish government that he does not relate to as his own representative. Would it be a big surprise if he might easily become anti EU as he lacks the empowerment even at National level. In my opinion Balkanisation is not about new countries emerging from people who do not identify themselves as part of their current countries, but from creating federal states from peoples that are reluctant at being part of a single entity. In matter of fact as EU´s main problem is that the level of democracy is not acceptable with European parliament only being an advisory body. It might be easier for it becoming an representative body, if the federal states among EU would be dismantled. Funny idea?

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It's just a slippery slope for all federal nations. What if Britanny, Flanders, South Tirol, Bavaria, Moravia, the Italian City-States, etc... all decide to leave their host countries just because. Balkanisation I feel is an alright idea when there is too much ethnic strife and tension that no matter what the federal government does it will always be wrong by multiple other groups. The Catalans are not an oppressed people, while I feel the police crack down was foolish and was too close to Franco's old methods it wasn't on such a scale that it has negated Spains right to rule there. If the EU representative only acted against ones interests then so be it but that'd be easier accommodated by a representative of a sort for such semi-autonomous regions.

Kurdistan is a different nut altogether, they've been actively oppressed, they have a different culture and language, and they've had a military that's protected their region when the federal force was unable to which would be a failure of the contract of the Iraqi government to Kurdistan to provide safety for its people.

The EU might initially prefer the break up of all the federal government but then it'd just turn into a mini UN with so many voices that it'd be even less able to do anything but with an even greater byzantine administrative system that 'd make it more akin to the Holy Roman Empire with its 200 some 'nations'

The famous EEC/EU clip from Yes, Minister seems appropriate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYqB0uTKlE

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If not, why are we pressing for an increase in membership?

Well for the same reason, it's just like the United Nations in fact. The more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.

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Originally Posted by spmetla

It's just a slippery slope for all federal nations. What if Britanny, Flanders, South Tirol, Bavaria, Moravia, the Italian City-States, etc... all decide to leave their host countries just because. Balkanisation I feel is an alright idea when there is too much ethnic strife and tension that no matter what the federal government does it will always be wrong by multiple other groups. The Catalans are not an oppressed people, while I feel the police crack down was foolish and was too close to Franco's old methods it wasn't on such a scale that it has negated Spains right to rule there. If the EU representative only acted against ones interests then so be it but that'd be easier accommodated by a representative of a sort for such semi-autonomous regions.

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I agree that such can become very hazardous, though at least around these parts governing is being driven more and more closer to the people. From province or region government to more independent municipality governing. Of course my understanding when it comes to state level and federal level government is non existant as ive never lived in a federal state. If EU wants to become a Federal state or a "superstate". The greatest hurdle are the large federal states within EU, whom wield extraordinary power in the council of ministers and even neglect EU if it suites their goals.

Can i ask how is state level affairs handled in US. Does California or lets say Texas have extraordinary power at the federal level of decision making?

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Originally Posted by spmetla

Kurdistan is a different nut altogether, they've been actively oppressed, they have a different culture and language, and they've had a military that's protected their region when the federal force was unable to which would be a failure of the contract of the Iraqi government to Kurdistan to provide safety for its people.

The EU might initially prefer the break up of all the federal government but then it'd just turn into a mini UN with so many voices that it'd be even less able to do anything but with an even greater byzantine administrative system that 'd make it more akin to the Holy Roman Empire with its 200 some 'nations'

The famous EEC/EU clip from Yes, Minister seems appropriate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYqB0uTKlE

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Well you have more then 50 states. Why not 200 hundred for EU? (I have to point out that i am being rather lighthearted about this issue and just fooling around with this idea.)

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

I have to disagree with you on this. If Catalonians dont want to be part of Spain, why should they be?

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Because we can't always get what we want. Some people don't want to be unemployed or hungry and we also don't give them jobs and food just like that. the Catalans wouldn't just gain something, they would also take something away from the rest of Spain without ever asking the rest of Spain. They're obviously creating more divisions.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

If that is your standard for no longer being able to assert your own cultural identity, then McDonalds has already won, so perhaps your superstate should be The Golden Arches.

Who knew world government would end up thus...

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Yeah, well, we all know who won the Cold War.
These petty disputes are just outdated matters that concern people who still don't know their real corporate overlords because they've fallen for the neoliberal model of slavery. :drama2:

These regions make the assumption they will stay rich after they cut themselves loose. This is a faulty assumption.

Most obvious with Scotland but it applies here (and to Texas).

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

These regions make the assumption they will stay rich after they cut themselves loose. This is a faulty assumption.

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Oh? And why would that be a faulty assumption. If becomming richer is the motive for seperation it's questionable, but alas Madrid as kind enough to give them a better one. But they will get richer it's where the tourism is. Barcelona alone is good for millions of tourists but there are also dozens of coastal towns (avoid if you are older than 25, if you aren't why are you reading this right now, you haven't been on vacation if you never woke up naked on the beach with sunburned privaes, and have no idea why)

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

These regions make the assumption they will stay rich after they cut themselves loose. This is a faulty assumption.

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In case of Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, Norway it didn't turn out to be faulty.

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Originally Posted by Husar

they would also take something away from the rest of Spain without ever asking the rest of Spain

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What, exactly?

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

In case of Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, Norway it didn't turn out to be faulty.

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Were they all the richest region in the country before they gained independence? When did they gain independence and from whom?
I'd say a region that is at the bottom end of the country it is in has better chances for improvement than one that is already at the top.
Smaller countries also tend to require a niche, I'm not sure whether beaches make for a good niche if Spain and Greece have similar beaches but with all the cost savings and convenience that come with being inside the EU...

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Originally Posted by Viking

What, exactly?

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Taxes, "friends", land and glory of course.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Taxes [and] land

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And these belong to the rest of Spain why exactly?

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Originally Posted by Viking

And these belong to the rest of Spain why exactly?

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Because Catalonia was riding on the Spanish wave the entire time. Spanish soldiers fought and bled to enrich the entire country. Spanish politicians negotiated the EU entry that Catalonia also profited from. The Catalans can speak Spanish now, which makes them able to communicate much better given that hardly anyone outside Catalonia wants to learn Catalan. And because the Catalans are doing well at the expense of the rest of Spain.

Here's also a somewhat older overview of the economic consequences: http://www.businessinsider.de/econom...op=1&r=US&IR=T

Here's the relevant part about Catalonia profiting off of Spain:

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A Spanish commercial war would follow to take Catalonia out of the Spanish market, where Catalan goods and services are sold up to €39 billion ($51 billion), 18.5% of Catalan GDP. Since even newly independent countries are not prone to turn the other cheek to their would-be ruffians, those Spanish moves would surely provoke akin Catalan measures to wipe Spain off the Catalan market, where Spanish goods and services are sold up to €27 billion ($36 billion), 3,1% of Spanish GDP.

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Yes, Spain also gains €16 billion in taxes, but it's only normal that those who make more money pay higher taxes, even if the tax rate is a flat percentage.

Keep this in mind: http://www.euronews.com/2017/09/14/j...lonia-yes-vote

What is really interesting is this article: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/...-rest-of-spain

It seems very suspect without knowing the state of the infrastructure in Catalonia and Spain and how high the investments were in the first place, but I couldn't find any numbers about infrastructure investments per Spanish region. The Catalan chamber of commerce is hardly an unbiased source either. :shrug:

If the solution to every distribution problem is independence though, the West Germans need to vote about independence from the former DDR because we're all still paying to build it up and there are plenty of people who dislike that... #returnthewall

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Originally Posted by Husar

If the solution to every distribution problem is independence though, the West Germans need to vote about independence from the former DDR because we're all still paying to build it up and there are plenty of people who dislike that... #returnthewall

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Nope you need to be torn into 16 states, which then will loose your German identity and start voting in EURO parliament based on their political leaning, rather then some strange German interest..:devil:

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Nope you need to be torn into 16 states, which then will loose your German identity and start voting in EURO parliament based on their political leaning, rather then some strange German interest..:devil:

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16 isn't even enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...er_Staufer.svg


Update:

https://www.ksl.com/?nid=151&sid=460...ll-to-relocate

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Vida Nueva (New Life) internet publication said the pope told Spain's new ambassador to the Vatican, Gerardo Bugallo, that the Holy See is against all self-determination moves that are outside decolonization processes.

In the meeting Monday, the pope told Bugallo that the Vatican also rejected attitudes that do not respect the law.

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And now the one you probably care more about:

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Spanish media reports say executives of Banco Sabadell, one of Catalonia's largest banks and Spain's fifth in terms of volume of assets, have agreed to relocate the bank's base outside of the troubled Catalonia region.

Banco Sabadell's registration will be moved to the eastern city of Alicante, but the physical headquarters will remain in the Catalan regional capital, Barcelona, according to the Spanish private news agency Europa Press.

Citing Sabadell sources, Europa Press said the reason for the move was to protect the interests of the banks' customers and ensure legal protection under the umbrella of the European Central Bank as Catalonia's mull an independence declaration.

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This seems like a bureaucratic move for now (unless this actually affects where they pay taxes etc., if they pay any taxes in the first place), but it could affect the Catalonian business in the long term, especially if it ends up outside the EU and the banks lose a lot of business in Catalonia.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-...sis-hits-banks

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International credit rating agency Standard and Poor's announced it may downgrade the sovereign debt rating of Catalonia in the next three months.

"We see a risk that this escalation may damage the coordination and communication between the two governments, which is essential to Catalonia's ability to service its debt on time and in full," it said.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Because Catalonia was riding on the Spanish wave the entire time. Spanish soldiers fought and bled to enrich the entire country. Spanish politicians negotiated the EU entry that Catalonia also profited from.

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As Spain has benefited from Catalonia the entire time. Some of those soldiers were Catalan; those Spanish politicians would have acted with a democratic mandate in part given to them by Catalans, and some of them may have been Catalans themselves.

If there is an imbalance in contributions, you can demand reimbursement.

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Here's the relevant part about Catalonia profiting off of Spain:

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That part shows trade.