Catalonia

[Gilrandir]

These regions make the assumption they will stay rich after they cut themselves loose. This is a faulty assumption.

In case of Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, Norway it didn't turn out to be faulty.

[Husar]

In case of Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, Norway it didn't turn out to be faulty.

Were they all the richest region in the country before they gained independence? When did they gain independence and from whom?
I'd say a region that is at the bottom end of the country it is in has better chances for improvement than one that is already at the top.
Smaller countries also tend to require a niche, I'm not sure whether beaches make for a good niche if Spain and Greece have similar beaches but with all the cost savings and convenience that come with being inside the EU...

What, exactly?

Taxes, "friends", land and glory of course.

[Viking]

Taxes [and] land

And these belong to the rest of Spain why exactly?

[Husar]

And these belong to the rest of Spain why exactly?

Because Catalonia was riding on the Spanish wave the entire time. Spanish soldiers fought and bled to enrich the entire country. Spanish politicians negotiated the EU entry that Catalonia also profited from. The Catalans can speak Spanish now, which makes them able to communicate much better given that hardly anyone outside Catalonia wants to learn Catalan. And because the Catalans are doing well at the expense of the rest of Spain.

Here's also a somewhat older overview of the economic consequences: http://www.businessinsider.de/econom...op=1&r=US&IR=T

Here's the relevant part about Catalonia profiting off of Spain:

A Spanish commercial war would follow to take Catalonia out of the Spanish market, where Catalan goods and services are sold up to €39 billion ($51 billion), 18.5% of Catalan GDP. Since even newly independent countries are not prone to turn the other cheek to their would-be ruffians, those Spanish moves would surely provoke akin Catalan measures to wipe Spain off the Catalan market, where Spanish goods and services are sold up to €27 billion ($36 billion), 3,1% of Spanish GDP.

Yes, Spain also gains €16 billion in taxes, but it's only normal that those who make more money pay higher taxes, even if the tax rate is a flat percentage.

Keep this in mind: http://www.euronews.com/2017/09/14/j...lonia-yes-vote

What is really interesting is this article: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/...-rest-of-spain

It seems very suspect without knowing the state of the infrastructure in Catalonia and Spain and how high the investments were in the first place, but I couldn't find any numbers about infrastructure investments per Spanish region. The Catalan chamber of commerce is hardly an unbiased source either.

If the solution to every distribution problem is independence though, the West Germans need to vote about independence from the former DDR because we're all still paying to build it up and there are plenty of people who dislike that... #returnthewall

[Kagemusha]

If the solution to every distribution problem is independence though, the West Germans need to vote about independence from the former DDR because we're all still paying to build it up and there are plenty of people who dislike that... #returnthewall

Nope you need to be torn into 16 states, which then will loose your German identity and start voting in EURO parliament based on their political leaning, rather then some strange German interest..

[Husar]

Nope you need to be torn into 16 states, which then will loose your German identity and start voting in EURO parliament based on their political leaning, rather then some strange German interest..

16 isn't even enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...er_Staufer.svg


Update:

https://www.ksl.com/?nid=151&sid=460...ll-to-relocate

Vida Nueva (New Life) internet publication said the pope told Spain's new ambassador to the Vatican, Gerardo Bugallo, that the Holy See is against all self-determination moves that are outside decolonization processes.

In the meeting Monday, the pope told Bugallo that the Vatican also rejected attitudes that do not respect the law.

And now the one you probably care more about:

Spanish media reports say executives of Banco Sabadell, one of Catalonia's largest banks and Spain's fifth in terms of volume of assets, have agreed to relocate the bank's base outside of the troubled Catalonia region.

Banco Sabadell's registration will be moved to the eastern city of Alicante, but the physical headquarters will remain in the Catalan regional capital, Barcelona, according to the Spanish private news agency Europa Press.

Citing Sabadell sources, Europa Press said the reason for the move was to protect the interests of the banks' customers and ensure legal protection under the umbrella of the European Central Bank as Catalonia's mull an independence declaration.

This seems like a bureaucratic move for now (unless this actually affects where they pay taxes etc., if they pay any taxes in the first place), but it could affect the Catalonian business in the long term, especially if it ends up outside the EU and the banks lose a lot of business in Catalonia.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-...sis-hits-banks

International credit rating agency Standard and Poor's announced it may downgrade the sovereign debt rating of Catalonia in the next three months.

"We see a risk that this escalation may damage the coordination and communication between the two governments, which is essential to Catalonia's ability to service its debt on time and in full," it said.

[Viking]

Because Catalonia was riding on the Spanish wave the entire time. Spanish soldiers fought and bled to enrich the entire country. Spanish politicians negotiated the EU entry that Catalonia also profited from.

As Spain has benefited from Catalonia the entire time. Some of those soldiers were Catalan; those Spanish politicians would have acted with a democratic mandate in part given to them by Catalans, and some of them may have been Catalans themselves.

If there is an imbalance in contributions, you can demand reimbursement.

Here's the relevant part about Catalonia profiting off of Spain:

That part shows trade.

[Husar]

That part shows trade.

A trade deficit of 12 billion Euros on the Spanish side, yes.

Also updated the above post since I didn't want to double post.

[Viking]

A trade deficit of 12 billion Euros on the Spanish side, yes.

Yes, and that sounds like a problem for the rest of Spain, not Catalonia.

[Montmorency]

As Spain has benefited from Catalonia the entire time. Some of those soldiers were Catalan; those Spanish politicians would have acted with a democratic mandate in part given to them by Catalans, and some of them may have been Catalans themselves.

If there is an imbalance in contributions, you can demand reimbursement.

You must realize this is also an argument for monetary reparations to former colonized peoples by the developed world.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As Spain has benefited from Catalonia the entire time. Some of those soldiers were Catalan....

Indeed...



Tough javelin infantry

[Fragony]

Does it all matter, Spain profitted yes, always has. But economy stopped being important when Madrid decided to go all berserk on Catalonians. Madrid's only option is more violence and that will only make things worse for Madrid. They are idiots and have a big problem, unlike Catalonia the rest of Spain isn't self-sufficient. Eurocrats also have - problem, yet another, champagne on that! Another axe-cut in the tree, pieces in our time

[Brenus]

We know what will happened. Happened before. Pretty villages burn nicely...
https://youtu.be/QqCmFRvO8fQ

https://youtu.be/2_dYaAtHwws