A Comparison of the Biblical God vs Allah

Was Muhammad a True Prophet of God?

Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of the one true God teaching correct doctrine [Islam] as the biblical prophets before him, such as Noah, Moses, Jesus etc. As a christian Muhammad is an example of Matthew 24.11.

“And many false prophets will appear and deceive many people”
-Matthew 24.11

To think that after scriptures was closed and Jesus death and resurrection that a non Jewish prophet would arise in Arabia long after the bible was written [Matthew 23.37 Hebrews 1 1-3], and this new prophet would radically change doctrine and contradict the bible must be rejected by a christian. And while I believe Muhammad can be shown a false prophet by the Koran and Muslim doctrine, this will be focused on the man Muhammad rather than Islamic doctrine or the truthfulness of Islam.

Muhammad was born in Mecca in Arabia around 570 and lived to be 62 years old dying in Medina in 632 from poising. I n 610 at the age of 40 he received his first revelation from Allah through the angel Gabriel while praying in a cave. He would receive revelations for the next 22 years that would later be compiled into the Koran from the memory of his followers. Muhammad came from the Arabian pagan tribe the Quraysh based in Mecca witch was the center for trade and pilgrimage for pagans with its local pagan shrine the Ka'bah as the holiest site in pre Islamic Arbia. One of his local pagan tribes deities was “Allah” the pagan moon god who's symbol is the crescent moon. Muhammad took 7th century Arabian culture and elevated it to religious status and mixed it with local Jewish and christian groups theology on the one true god. Five prayers a day, prayers towards mecca, the fast of Ramadan, circling the ka'bah, dietary laws, clothing, woman's veil, woman wear black, men wear white, virgins a gift in heaven, the story of the sun setting in mirkey water, even the word muslim were all done by pre Islamic pagans. Much of the Koranic version of heaven comes from the Zorastriods of Persia- Muhammad just brought his local tribes “Allah” the moon God to a higher status. See

the religion of Islam by Dr. Ron Carlson
https://www.christianministriesintl.org/...ry=2827161

Muhammad's life is often divided by scholars into three separate time periods. First the pre-prophetic period from 570-610. During this time period Muhammad worked in the caravan trade in Mecca where he met and talked with a wide variety of worldviews including Jewish and christian. He married his first wife Khadijah who was 15 years his elder.

Than comes the Meccan prophetic Period 610-622. During this time Muhammad believed a demon ordered him to recite verses. Khadijah and her cousin Waraqah convinced him it was god communicating with him. After being convinced God was communicating with him Muhammad set out seeking acceptance from Jews and Christians believing his message was constant with the bible. Koranic verses from this time period are very tolerant and peaceful to Jews and Christians as he sought converts. He started to preach Islam to the local pagans who persecuted him and the the local Arab Jews and Christians rejected him as a prophet and he fled Mecca.

The Medinan period was from 622 until his death. 622 starts year 0 for the Muslim calender. Muslims built their first mosque in Medina and Muhammad first perched on Friday becoming the Islamic holy day. Medina is the city Muhammad first became a political and military leader. He began raiding caravans and led Muslims in a total of 66 battles most of them victories. Gaining money and power more Arabs followed Islam and his numbers grew. He revived new revelations to drive out the Jews in Medina. With increasing power his attitude towards Jews and Christians took a drastic turn. For example Sura 2.256 was written in 614. Sura 9.5 was written in 627. After the Jews rejected him Allah gave revelations to pray towards mecca, to the sacred mosque the Ka'bah 2.150 instead of the previous Jerusalem. Yet Jews and Christians were suppose to know to pray towards mecca was the truth Sura 2.143-144. He would go on to returned and conquer Mecca, as well as all of Arabia before his death.

Special Privileges, Wives, and sex Slaves

While the Koran says Muslims may have four wives the prophet had eleven [Sahih al-Bukhari, Number 268] . Child marriage was common in Arabia in the 7th century and when the prophet was in his fifties he married Aisha who was six and consummated the marriage when she was nine. Aisha said

“The messenger of God married me when I was seven, my marriage was consummated when I was nine.”
-Tuburi vol 7.7

“The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).”
-Sahih al-Bukhari 5158—Narrated Urwa:

"when Prophet (pbuh) married me I was only six year old at that time. ... One day while I was playing with my friends in a swing-sets (dolnas)... I was breathing rapidly because I was still tired of swinging with my friends. And I did not understand why I was called here. Then, my mother took me to a room where I saw three helping maids (ansars) who immediately decorated me and handed me over to the Prophet (pbuh), and they left the room. At that time I was only nine- year old. Prophet (pbuh) consummated our marriage that day".
-Sahih Bukhari Hadith: Hazrat Aisha (RA) narrated

Once, one of the prophets wives caught him having sex with one of his slave girls Mary the copt in one of his wives beds. His wives were very upset by this and Muhammad swore an oath to never again have sex with his slave girls. However Muhammad magically than received revelations from Allah that it was ok to have sex with his slave girls in Sura 66 1-2.

The Prophet admired Umm Ibrahaim [Mary the Copt], who was fair-skinned and beautiful. He lodged her in al-Aliyah, at the property nowadays called the mashrabah of Umm Ibrahim. He used to visit her there and ordered her to veil herself, [but] he had intercourse with her by virtue of her being his property.
-Al-Tabari, Volume 39, p. 194

and this allowed him to go back on his oath to his wives. In fact this is a common theme in the Koran. Allah seems there to aid in whatever Muhammad desires.

“In the qu'ran again and again Allah is quit solicitous of his prophet, and ready to command what pleases him.”
- Robert Spencer The Truth About Muhammad Regenery Publishing Inc Washington D.C 2006

“Since the Qur'an is supposedly Allah's eternal Word, our Muslim friends expect us to believe that, from eternity past, Allah had nothing better to do than compose verses giving Muhammad the right to break his oath to his wives so that he could continue having sex with his slave-girl.“
-David Wood

He also marries his daughter in law Zaynab Bint Jahsh. Muhammad and Allah in sura 4.24 allowed Muslims to have sex with their captured slave girls of Banu Mustaliq. Muhammad married one of those captives a woman named Juwayoriya. At the Khaybar Oasis Muslims kicked them out of the land and took woman as captives. Muhammad allowed a Muslim named Dihya any slave girl from the captives and he chose Safiyya- when Muhammad saw her beauty he said Dihya could chose any other- Muhammad than married Safiyya and consummated the marriage that night. Muhammad created many widows because of Islam they could not remarry, Aisha was only 18 at this death. Only Muhammad can have daughters of his maternal and paternal uncles and aunts as well as any believing woman. Muhammad can change and equire new slave girls.

“O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her -- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess [slaves] in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
-Qur’an 33:50

Muhammad got more of the booty than anyone else after victories or raids once receiving 1/5 of the booty of the entire army. Believers cannot bother Muhammad with familiar talk or he will be annoyed annoyed. There is no speaking ill of Muhammad 33.53-54.

Muhammad the Superstitious Prophet of Arabia and Scientific Blunders

“If a mans discharge preceded that of the woman, then the child resembles the father, and if the woman discharges preceded that of the man, than the child resembles the mother.”
-Sahih al-Bukhari 3329 Narrated Anas

Allah’s Messenger said, “If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it [i.e. the fly] away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i.e. the treatment for that disease.”
-Sahih al-Bukhari 5782

Abu Qatada mentioning Allah’s saying: “And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps . . .” (v. 67:5) said, “The creation of these stars is for three purposes, and they are: 1) as decoration of the nearest heaven, 2) as missiles to hit the devils, and 3) as signs to guide travelers. So, if anybody tries to find a different interpretation, he is mistaken and just wastes his efforts and troubles himself with what is beyond his limited knowledge.”
-Sahih al-Bukhari 3198

Muhammad said statements more in line with a superstitious 7th century Arabian than a prophet of God. Muhammad said Satan can be in the upper part of peoples noses while they sleep causing them to wake up in the middle of the night, so therefore people should blow their nose. Once Satan urinated in a Muslims ear causing him to not get up from bed to do his prayers. Satan farts so he does not hear certain prayers of Muslims. Crows crow, when they see a angel. Graying of a donkey means it has seen Satan. Yawning is from Satan. The sun rises between the two heads of Satan. A fever is from the heat of hell fire so treat it with water. Hell fire causes heat. Shooting stars were created to hit devils. Muhammad taught one wing on a fly has a disease, the other wing the cure. Adam was 90 feet tall. Allah transformed some Jews into apes because they did not follow the Sabbath 2.65-66. The Koran is not to be left open and unattended or a devil or jinn will come along and read it. And “if the Koran was wrapped in a skin and thrown into a fire it would not burn” al-tirmidui.652. Muhammad said male sperm originates between the rib and backbone. Muhammad also had concerning sanitary practices.

I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah: Water is brought for you from the well of Buda’ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual cloths and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything.
-Sunan Abu Dawud 67

It was narrated that Jabir bin Abdullah said: “We came to a pond in which there was the carcass of a donkey, so we refrained from using the water until the Messenger of Allah came to us and said: ‘Water is not made impure by anything.’ Then we drank from it and gave it to our animals to drink, and we carried some with us.”
-Sunan Ibn Majah 520—

[Mua’wiya said]: I saw the prophet sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire).
-Musnad Ahmad 16245

"It is related that Abu Hurayra said, "I never saw al-Hasan without my eyes overflowing with tears. That is because the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out one day and I found him in the mosque. He took my hand and I went along with him. He did not speak to me until we reached the market of Banu Qaynuqa. He walked around it and looked. Then he left and I left with him until we reached the mosque. He sat down and wrapped himself in his garment. Then he said, 'Where is the little one? Call the little one to me.' Hasan came running and jumped into his lap. Then he put his hand in his beard. Then the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, opened his mouth and put his tongue in his mouth. Then he said, O Allah, I love him, so love him and the one who loves him!'"
(Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari, Number 1183) Al-Adab al-Mufrad al-Bukhari 1183

For references and more see
David Wood vs. Ali Ataie: "Who Was Muhammad?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008...e-who-was.html
Osama Abdallah vs. David Wood: "Was Muhammad a True Prophet?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008...-wood-was.html
Talking Ants and Shrinking Humans:An Analysis of Muhammad’s Scientific Blunders
http://www.acts17.net/articles/talkingants.htm
The Incredulous and Absurd Teachings of Muhammad Pt. 1
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/s...ings1.html


Muhammad the Original Midnight Rider

“It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of version. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk. I chose the milk, and Gabriel said: You have chosen the natural thing. Then he took me to heaven”
- Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 309:

However the first temple of Jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 BC. The Romans destroyed the second temple under general Titus in 70 AD. The temple that eventually became Masjid al-Aqsa did not exist until 691 AD. Thus there was no Temple in Jerusalem for Muhammad to take his midnight ride by creature to.


The Satanic Verses

Salman Rushdie Reads from "The Satanic Verses"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v20VvP19kCI
Debate on Satanic verse- Wood vs Alley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijuMRAsanNk

When Muhammad first received a revelation his first impression was that he was demon possessed and became depressed and suicidal. Now, Muhammad received a spell from black magic that caused him to give false revelations for a year. Satan gave revelations to Muhammad who thought were from Allah [see Ibn Ishaq 165-166.] If Satan is able to give revelations and the prophet is unable to know the difference, how can we know what is from Allah or if any is from Allah? How reliable does that make Muhammad? More so how could Allah allow his prophet to be deceived? Further Allah is deceitful 8.41-45 Allah is a schemer like man 86.17 According to the Koran Allah is the "best of deceivers" 3:54; 8:30. This is not solid grounds for trust.

Aisha narrated: "Once the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact, he had not done."
-Sahih al-Bukhari 3175

Aisha narrated: Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) so that he used to think that he had had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not. Then one day he said, "O Aisha, do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I asked Him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other sat near my feet. The one near my head asked the other: ‘What is wrong with this man?’ The latter replied, ‘He is under the effect of magic.’ The first one asked, ‘Who has worked magic on him?’ The other replied, ‘Labid bin Al-Asam, a man from Bani Zuraiq who was an ally of the Jews and was a hypocrite.’ The first one asked, ‘What material did he use?’ The other replied, ‘A comb and the hair stuck to it.’"
-Sahih al-Bukhari 5765


When the apostle saw that his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him . . . Then God sent down "By the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire," and when he reached His words "Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other", Satan, when he was meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it to his people, put upon his tongue "these are the exalted Gharaniq [Numidian cranes] whose intercession is approved." When the Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods and they listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought them from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or a slip, and when he reached the prostration and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated . . . Then the people dispersed and the Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, "Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved." The news reached the prophet’s companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said, "What have you done, Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you." The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of God. So God sent down (a revelation), for He was merciful to him, comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So God annulled what Satan had suggested and God established His verses, i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. Then God sent down: "We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions in his longing. But God will annul what Satan has suggested. Then God will establish his verses, God being knowing and wise."
-Ibn Ishaq, p. 165-166


Was Muhammad Foretold in the Bible?

[Muhammad to Jews ]“Do you not find in what he [Allah] has sent down to you that you should believe in Muhammad”
-Ibn Isaq 256

According to Muhammad the Jews and Christians in his day should believe in Muhammad since he was clearly promised in the old and new testaments see Sura 48.29 26.193-205 and many others. However he was rejected by both groups who failed to see him in the scriptures. This is a big problem since there are no prophecies of him in the bible thus Muhammad was mistaken and not a genuine prophet. Here are some debates on the subject as Islamic apologist attempt to place him in the Bible.


Zakir Hussain vs. James White: Is Muhammad Prophesied in the Bible?http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/09/...te-is.html
Shabir Ally vs. James White: "Muhammad in the Bible?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/08/...d-in.htmlJ
james White: Is Muhammad in the Bible?
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/12/...bible.html

In fact Muhammad's understanding of the Bible often came from local Gnostic and heretical groups and the Talmud leading to his false doctrine on many Biblical issues that he believed were true. For example Local heretical christian groups used the Arabic infancy gospel of Thomas. A forgery written in local Arabia that dates to the 6th century. The Koran contains material from that gospel like Jesus speaking as a baby 3.46 19 29-33 Jesus making clay birds come to life 5.110 [bible says his first miracle was in John 2.11 as adult] presented as truth. local Gnostics did not believe Jesus died on the cross and it was either Judas or that Jesus just appeared to die, this is material the Koran says is true. From the Talmud comes the Koranic story of the two sons of Adam found in sura 5.27 5.31 and Abraham being thrown in the fire and god cools the flames sura 21 68-69. Sura 18.9-26 derives from apocrypha writings acta sunctorum. Jinn, the lunar calender came from pre Islamic Jewish sources.

Muhammad and Violence

Below are some of the actions of the man Muslims are to view as their role model Sura 33.21. Muhammad oversaw and participated in the beheading of 600-900 men of the Qurayzahs [His favorite sword was called “The clever of vertebrate”] The woman and children were enslaved.

“The apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for the men of the Qurayzahs and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches.”
-Ibn Isaq

After a Muslim victory a Jewish prisoner Uqba pleaded for his life “who will look after my children o Muhammad?” Muhammad replied “hell” and ordered him killed [see Ibn Isaq 308]. He ordered a man to be tortured until the man gave up where the hidden money was, the man would not give up the information despite being tortured and was beheaded.

Kinana b. al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has," so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud.
-Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, p. 515

After this Muhammad took Kinana's seventeen year old wife as his own. Muhammad allowed a follower to lie in order to kill a Jewish poet Ka'b bin Al-Ashrat who was critical of Muhammad.

The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."
-Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271: Narrated Jabir:

He had a pregnant woman Asma bint marwan murdered. Another woman was going to be given lashes by the Jews for adultery but instead Muhammad had her stoned to death. He ordered the assassination of many political enemies. In the book of life of Muhammad p 464 he tortured Jews for information and burned out their eyes. He said those who do mischief cut there hands and feet from opposite sides and crucify them Sura 5.33. Muhammad himself did so to Jews vol 8 book 82 hadith 795. Often anyone critical of him would be killed. He once blessed a follower for driving a bow through someones eye and out the back of his head. In Sunan Abu Dawud 4361- a blind man kills his wife and child for speaking against Muhammad, Muhammad declares him guiltless. He also had a blind man over 100 year old killed for being critical of him.

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet was informed about it. He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up. He sat before the Prophet and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her. Thereupon the Prophet said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
- Sunan Abu Dawud 4348 Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas

A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.
-Sunan Abu Dawud 4349—Narrated Ali ibn Abu Talib:

Muhammad said on his death bed, whoever relinquishes his faith kill him. If a Muslim were to leave his religion

Ibn Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his (Islamic) religion, kill him.”
-Al-Bukhary (number 6922)

Abd-Allah ibn Masood said: The Messenger of Allah said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah, except in one of three cases: a soul (in case of murder); a married person who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and separates from the main body of Muslims.”
-Sahih Al Bukhary number 6484 and Sahih Muslim number 1676

Jihad

“I have been ordered to fight with the people until they say none has the right to be worshiped but Allah”
-Muhammad vol 4 book 52 hadith 196

“I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah.”
-Muhammad in Sahih Muslim 33

Arabian pagan tribes that were conquered by Muhammad were forced to convert to Islam or die. Jews and Christians [people of the book] were forced to convert or become second class citizens while paying the tax to fund Islamic expansion. As his power grew he became more intolerant of Jews and Christians saying

“kill any Jew that falls into your power”
-Ibn Isak 369 Ibn Sa'd vol 2 36

Islamic apologist say this only refers to military men. However that is not how it was understood, soon after a Jewish merchant who traded with the Muslims was murdered. His ultimate goal was to kick out all non Muslims when he said.

“I will ex spell the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any butt Muslims.”
-Muslim book 19 no 4366

Muhammad claimed God told him to fight people until they become Muslim. Instead of starting a peaceful religion in Medina when he was no longer oppressed. Muhammad instead waged war on all non Muslims until his death. In the Koran Muhammad is to make war with nonbelievers and deal sternly with them Sura 66.9 Muhammad was called to rouse believers to fight 8.62-66.

A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed." Then he added, "Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?" The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu- Huraira added, "The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope."
-Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44: Narrated Abu Huraira:

Muhammad told believers to fight them till they convert paradise for anyone who dies in war vol 4 book 53 hadith 586.

Auf Bin Harith asked Muhammad “What makes the lord laugh with joy” Muhammad answered “when he plunges into the midst of the enemy without mail” “Auf Throw of his court of mail and plunged into the thick of the battle. Fighting tenaciously until he was killed”
-Ibn Isaq 300

“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, than kill him.”
-Bukari vol 19 book 88 no 6922 cf 44 book 56 no 3017

“Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Case into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty.”
-Sahih al-Bukhari 2787—

The Prophet said, “Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world, even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah’s cause).”
-Sahih al-Bukhari 2795—Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, “A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah’s cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than all the world and whatever is in it.”
-Sahih al-Bukhari 2796—Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, . . . “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is! I would love to be martyred in Allah’s Cause and then come back to life and then get martyred, and then come back to life again and then get martyred and then come back to life again and then get martyred.”
-Sahih al-Bukhari 2797—Narrated Abu Hurairah:

‘A man asked Rasulullaah (s.a.w): “..and what is Jihad?” He (s.a.w) replied: “You fight against the disbelievers when you meet them.” He asked again: “What kind of Jihad is the highest?” He (Mohammed) replied: “The person who is killed whilst spilling the last of his blood.”
-[Hadith Sahih. Al Haithami states: “Narrators upheld it.” Majmauz Zawaid 1/59Musnad Ahmed 4:114:

The Prophet said: “Whoever dies without having fought or having thought of fighting, he dies on one of the branches of hypocrisy.”
-Sunan An-Nasa’i 3099—

The Messenger of Allah said: “Whoever meets Allah with no mark on him (as a result of fighting) in His cause, he will meet Him with a deficiency.”
-Sunan Ibn Majah 2763—

“I came to the Prophet and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, which Jihad is best?’ He said: ‘(That of a man) whose blood is shed and his horse is wounded.’”
-Sunan Ibn Majah 2794—It was narrated that Amr bin Abasah said:


Muhammad's View of Woman

[Muhammad said]: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense.
-Sahih Muslim 142 also Sahih Al-Bukhari 1462

"The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."
-Abo Dawud 2142

The Prophet said: “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?” The women said: “Yes.” He said: “This is because of the deficiency of her mind.”
-Sahih al-Bukhari 2658

'Aisha [Muhammad wife] said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women
-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:


The iron fist statue in Saudi Arabia is to remind woman who is in control. A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires Bukhari 72:715. Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain." Muslim 4:2127.

The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."
-Narrated Usama bin Zaid: Sahih Bukhari 7:62:33
Here is Muhammad's version of paradise for woman.



Allah’s Apostle said: "In Paradise there is a pavilion made of a single hollow pearl sixty miles wide, in each corner of which there are wives who will not see those in the other corners; and the believers will visit and enjoy them."
-Sahih Al-Bukhari 4879

We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.
-Sahih Muslim 3371

Robert Spencer vs. Moustafa Zayed: Does Islam Grant Equal Rights to Women?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70ugQV0OecQ


Comparing Muhammad and Jesus

The Koran says Mohammad is to be blameless for all he does.
Jesus took on the blame himself that we deserved.

Muhammad alone had special privileges and did not have to follow what other Muslims did.
Jesus was given no special rights, and played the role of a servant [and slave] to mankind Philippians 2:5-8.

Those that wronged Muhammad will be sternly punished sura 9.61
Jesus was wronged by us and yet willingly dies for us on the cross Romans 5.8 and prayed for those who nailed him to the cross and mocked him.

Mohammad's body like all “religious” leaders is buried in the ground in Medina
Jesus defeated death and was resurrected

Muhammad killed many enemies and political rivals, led many battles, beheaded prisoners of war, ordered assassinations, tortured people, said things like he was sent by god to kill unbelievers and commanded his followers to do the same.
Jesus lived a sinless life and even his enemies could not point to fault in him. His greatest commandment to his followers was to love god with all your heart and love your neighbors as yourself.

Muhammad said “I have been ordered to fight with the people until they say none has the right to be worshiped but allah” vol 4 book 52 hadith 196
Jesus in the sermon on the mount said Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God and “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.”


Muslim Defense of Muhammad/ Debates on Muhammad

To see the best responses Islam has to offer see these debates.

David Wood vs. Ali Ataie: "Who Was Muhammad?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008...e-who-was.html
Osama Abdallah vs. David Wood: "Was Muhammad a True Prophet?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008...-wood-was.html
Seymour vs. Wood:Was Muhammad a True Prophet?
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009...mmad-true.html
Omar Bakri & Shah Jalal Hussain vs. Sam Shamoun & David Wood: "Who Was Muhammad?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011...in-vs-sam.html
Sheikh Jalal Abualrub vs. David Wood: “Was Muhammad a Prophet” http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008/08/...od-is.html Who Was Muhammad? Qureshi vs. Wood http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/05/...-wood.html
Bassam Zawadi vs. David Wood:
“Does the Evidence Show That Islam Is True?”
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008/08/...-does.html

A Comparison of the Biblical God vs Allah

"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness....”
-Adolf Hitler A. Speer, Inside the Third Reich, pp. 142-143


Which is a God of Love?

“Whereas Muslims the primary currency of the divine economy is sovereign power, for Christians it is sacrificial love. Islam commands bow before him, Christianity invites run into his outstretched arms.
-Mateen Elass Understanding the Koran Zondervan Grand Rapids Mich 2004

In the Koran Allah is not all loving, he loves only those who do good works. Allah is the enemy of unbelievers 2.97-100 god does not love the unbelievers 3.30-35 god does not love the evil doers 3.56-57 god bears no love for the sinful 2.275-277 god does not love wrongdoers 42.38-44 god does not love the proud 16.22-26 Allah does not love the unbelievers 30.43-46 god does not love transgressors 7.54-57 so his love is conditional based on the works of a individual.

Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.
-Qur’an 3:31-32

Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.
-Qur’an 30:43-45

3:31-32 makes Allah’s love contingent on whether a person believes in Muhammad. This is similar to 19:46, which declares: “Lo! those who believe and do good works, the Beneficent will appoint for them love.”Allah is called “the Loving,” the Qur’an only means by this that Allah will love people once they believe in him and obey his prophet. The god of Islam has no love for sinners and unbelievers.

The God of the bible loves all and loves unconditional. “But god demonstrated his love for us that while we were sinners Christ died for us” Romans 5.8. Allah said god will love you, if you love him first 3.30-35 and believers need to help god, for him to help them 47.5-11. Jesus said of those who love only those who love them “if you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?” Matt 5.46. When being nailed to the cross after being beaten, scourged, spat at etc he prayed to god for those nailing him to the cross "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Luke 23.34.

A Personal god of Love?

Allah has 99 names not one is a god of love. The bible says “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love” 1 John 4.8. No one can speak with the Islamic god in haven 78 37-38. There is no personal relationship with god in this life or afterlife. In the bible its a personal god, that came into our world and suffered for us. Allah is an impersonal god outside of his creation not really caring for his creation

Since Allah is all powerful he needs nothing outside himself and loves nothing outside himself The plurality in the Godhead is vital for understanding the biblical teaching, “God is love” John 4:8 A Unitarian God, such as Islam’s Allah, could not be a God of Love in his nature, since by definition love requires another person to be the recipient. Allah might conceivably be able to love after he created, but that would make love contingent on creation, not an intrinsic property of Allah.

Allah Does not Wish all to be Saved

Allah does not will all to be saved 32.12-32 the Koranic god wishes to scourge unbelievers for his sins 5.48-50. Allah could have led all mankind to him, but he leads them astray because of there bad deeds 13.31, God wishes to scourge sinners 5.49, unbelievers are allowed to live longer only so they sin more, and receive a greater punishment 3.178. Allah punishes unbelievers, so there souls shall depart in unbelief 9.55. Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills14:416:93 42.13. God leads the wrongdoers astray 14.25-30 If one believes in Allah is based on gods predetermined outcome “Allah misleads whom he wills and guides whom he wills.” 14.4 Allah mislead billions around the world. He predestined them to hell [9.51 57 21-23 2 6-7 3 73-74 5 40-41 6.107 6.149 7.178 32.13 10.99 7 29-31 81 28-29 sahih Muslim 1.1 33.6436 33.6393.

“When God resolved to create the human race...he throw one half into hell, saying “These to eternal fire, and I care not” and projected the other half into haven adding “and these to paradise, I care not”
-Kisasul-Anbiya 21 also Abu-Dawood 2203 Al-Timidhi 38 Mishkat al -Misabih 3.112-13

The God of the bible is very different. "The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" 2Pet. 3.9. "He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" 1Tim. 2.4.

"'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11). “He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 peter 3.9.

So the god of the bible allows unbelievers to live, in hopes they will come to believe in him. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me Rev 3.20. I will never leave you nor forsake you. Hebrews 13:5.

Paradise a Gift of Grace or Earned? And the Justice of God

“In Islam God revels not himself but his will for humanity. His concern is not to invite human beings into a life transforming love relationship with himself but to demand rightful obedience to his commands. Under Islam the best human beings can hope for is to be recognized and rewarded as faithful servants.”
-Mateen Elass Understanding the Koran Zondervan Grand Rapids Mich 2004

In the Koran paradise is not a gift but a reward for good works 16.31-34. Paradise is earned with labors 7.43. You go to heaven if your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds on a scale 21.47 23.99-105, otherwise you go to hell and judgment. You must do works before you can be forgiven by Allah 8.1-5 20.81-86 33.35 7.156-157. God has mercy on those who do good works first 9.70-72. This concludes there is no chance for redemption for someone who is 50 years old full of bad works even if they have a change of heart. The sin is to great there is no chance for redemption.

The bible says "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10.13. In the bible paradise is freely given by a gracious God [who wants all in haven unlike the Koranic God] to all who accept. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” John 3.16 “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace But where sin increased, grace increased all the more” Romans 5.20.

A Just God

The god of the Koran is unjust and leaves sin unpunished. Since many crimes and sins will be committed that are never paid for or punished. Many Muslims will commit sins in their earthly life but their good deeds will outweigh their bad deeds and they will enter paradise. So their bad needs go unpunished. Making Allah unjust for allowing sins and crimes to go unpunished. In Sahih Al-Bukari 4.676 a man murdered 99 people and had no good works to speak of. Yet he was forgiven by Allah for no reason. His forgiveness was not based on gods love or an adornment for sin [such as Jesus n the cross] or gods law or mercy. Just an arbitrary forgiveness. Allah once forgave a man with great sin and no good works simply because he recited the shahada. Thus he is not a good judge or a just judge.

The biblical God is a just god and cannot allow sin to go unpunished. Yet he is also loving and forgiving. That is why he sent Jesus to take the punishment for sin we deserved. In this way God can be both all loving, and just, not allowing sin to go unpunished.

The Origin of Death and Suffering

“Allah ...determined the course of all that occurs in creation from beginning to end. Everything has been ordered by God's will, and nothing can alter or withstand his determinations.”
-Mateen Elass Understanding the Koran Zondervan Grand Rapids Mich 2004

In Islam there is no original perfect creation instead Allah created a world with death, disease, suffering earthquakes and man was created imperfect and impatient. In the Koran on the original created earth animals were eaten. In fact they were created to be eaten 36.71-76 16.1-6 16.14 death is a design of creation. In the Koran god ordained death 40.67-73 god is the author of death, death was an original part of creation. No one dies unless god wills it 3.144-46. The term of every life is fixed 3.144-46 6.60-62 everyone death is predetermined by god 16.61-63 In the Koran god is the cause of all death. Allah causes man to die 45. 24-26,27 80 18-20 god ordained death to people 56. 51-62 “Allah does what he wills” has “power over all things” including death and destruction 14.27 5.17 54.49 man was created weak 4.27-28 animals were created to be eaten all animals in the sea are wholesome food 5.96 god created life and death that he might put us to the test 67 1-3 god ordained death to people 56. 51-62 god causes people to die 45. 24-26,27 80 18-20.

In the bible God originally created a perfect creation with no death, disease, or sickness. Originally man and animals were vegetarian. Death is the enemy. In the bible Death is the last enemy to be destroyed and was not part of god original “good” creation Romans 5 12-21 1 Corinthians 15 20-26 Genesis 3. The future haven is to be like the original garden of Eden original when animals did not eat each other and humans did not eat animals.

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
Isiah 11 6-9

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
-Revelations chapter 21 1-5

For more in depth look at this from the biblical perspective see Why is There Death and Suffering if God is all Loving- A Christian Response
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread....n-Response

All men Created Equal?

In the Koran the meanest beast in gods sight are the deaf and dumb 8.21-22. People are not all equal in Allah's sight 32.16-20. Allah does not see all men as equal 9.18-20.

In the bible God shows personal favoritism to no man Galatians 2.6 there is no favoritism with god Romans 2 11. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3.28 10 “Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another? Malachi 2.10.

Hell

“He created them for hell while they were yet in their fathers loins.”
-Sahih Muslim 33.6436

In the koran hell was prepared for unbelievers 3.131 132 and hell was created for man 7.179 sahih al-bukari 8.593. Hell was created for demons and man 11.118-123. People will repent in hell and not be saved 10.54-58 10.97.

In the bible Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels Matt 25.41 not for humans.

Heaven

In the Koran sin continues in heaven 47.12-16 [and sahih al bukari vol 8 book 77 number 611] no one can speak with god in haven 78 37-38. Believers will mock unbelievers in hell, as they recline apone there couches 83.35. In the bible there is no more sin Isiah 11 6-9 Isiah 65.25 Revelations chapter 21 1-5 Rev 22 3-5 Isiah 2 1-4. And the purpose of heaven is to have an eternal relationship with a loving god unmarred by sin and separation.

The Purpose of Man

In the Koran man was created to be tried with affliction 90.1-7. Man was created weak 4.27-28 Muslims were created to help Muhammad in war 9.40 . In the bible man was created for a personal relationship with God lev 26.12 1 john 4.19 gen 5.1 gen 1.27 rev 21 1-5.

Fallen man

In the Koran man is forgetful and needs five prayers a day to remind him. "Surely prayer keeps [one] away from indecency and evil; and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest [force] and Allah knows what you do" 29-45.

In the bible man is a sinner and fallen “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3.23” “For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. 19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.” Romans 7 18-19

Searching for Truth?

If you are critical of Islam your fingers are chopped off than you go to hell 8.10-13. Death penalty for attacking the Koran 8.10-13 33,36.

In the book of acts the Berea were loved by god because they searched the scriptures to see if what the apostles were telling them was true or not not just blindly accepting.

The simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going.
-Proverbs 14.15

The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him
-Proverbs 18.17

Test all things; hold fast what is good.
-1 Thessalonians 5:21

Enemies

In the Koran if anyone attacks you attack him back 2.194-195. Allah tells Muhammad not to pray for enemies 9.80 9.84.

Jesus said love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, Matt 5.44. blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Matt 5.9 do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Early Believers

Abu bukr and early the Muslims spread Islam through conquest, battle, violence, and forced conversion. The Apostles died and were tortured to death for there beliefs.

Allah – The Greatest Deceiver of them All

God is deceitful 8.41-45 Allah is a schemer like man 86.17 According to the Qur'an, Allah is the "best of deceivers" 3:54; 8:30.

"The phrase is often translated into English as "best of planners," "best of schemers," or "best of plotters," but the root word (makr) means "deception." Hence, the following Qur'an verses should be rendered as follows:Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers. Qur'an 7:99—Are they then safe from Allah's deception? No one feels safe from Allah's deception except those that shall perish. Qur'an 8:30—And (remember) when the unbelievers plotted deception against you (O Muhammad), to imprison you, or kill you, or expel you. They plotted deception, but Allah also plotted deception; and Allah is the best of deceivers.
-Sam Shamoun

Muhammad was allowed to break treaty of Hudaybiya. The Koranic God seems to be ok with small sins as well, and even rewards them for not doing big sins 53. 32-40. Muhammad allowed a follower to lie in order to kill a Jewish poet Ka'b bin Al-Ashrat who was critical of Muhammad.

The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."
-Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271: Narrated Jabir:

The god of the bible cannot lie Titus 1:2 Hebrews 6:18

A Christian Looks at Islam

“I am convinced that nothing more irksome and harmful could possibly be done to Mohammed or the Turks [Islam] (more than with all weapons) than the publication among Christians of their Koran. By reading it Christians may see what an utterly accursed, shameful, wretched book it is – full of lies, fables, and all abominations… Therefore my kind and Christian petition to you, my gracious and dear sirs, is: Be pleased to allow this book freely to circulate, without hindrance, for the glory of Christ, for the good of Christians, for the harm of the Turks, and to the disgust of the devil.”
-A letter from Martin Luther to the city council of Basel on October 24, 1542

Islam originated with the prophet Muhammad in 7th century Arabia. The word Islam means submission, a Muslim is one who submits to Allah. Islam is the worlds second largest religion and derives its teachings from the prophet Muhammad who received revelations from Allah [god] through the angel Gabriel. These revelations were compiled from memory by his followers into the Koran the very words of Allah and free from any flaw 39.27 . The Koran containes 114 chapters [or suras] and is about 2/3 the size of the new testament. During the month of Ramadan Muslims fast [see sura 2.185] from sunrise to sundown celebrating Muhammad receiving revelations. The hadiths are also seen as authoritative to the majority of Muslims that contain information on the teachings and doings of the prophet Muhammad. Friday is the holy day for Muslims the day Muhammad first preached. The holy sites are Mecca witch is called the mother city Sura 6.92-93 and only Muslims can enter mecca. Mecca is the city where Muhammad was born and also the place of the Ka'bah.


All Muslims are to go to Mecca for a week long pilgrimage 3.95-100 no meat allowed 5 1-3 and when they reach the ka'bah they march around it seven times 2.124-130 22.25-30 believing this is were Abraham offered Ishmael as a sacrifice on the alter, and they also believe Abraham built it. Than they go to three pillars and throw stones believing they are stoning Satan and freeing themselves from sin for the year. Than they go to the cave they believe Mohammad received revelations from Gabriel. On the pilgrimage Muslims also go to the place they say Adam and Eve found each other outside of Eden, and the spot of the final sermon of Muhammad.

Medina “the city of the prophet” is where the first mosque or meeting place was built. It is also where Muhammad first became a political and military leader. The dome of the rock in Jerusalem and the great mosque in Damascus witch has the tomb of Saladin and a shrine of what is said to be John the baptist are also holy sites to Muslims. Sharia or Islamic law, means “the way.” Muslims are divided into two major factions the Shi'ites and the Sunnis. The shi'ites are the party of Ali who believed Mohammad successor should come from his family and should have been Ali instead of Abu Bakr who was the first caliph [leader], 10% of Muslims are shi'ites. Sunnis are those who adhere to the Sunnah, the model of the prophet from the traditions of Mohammad found mostly in the hadiths.

Five Pillars of Islam

There are five pillars to the Islamic faith that unifies all Muslims.

1-Declaration of faith “There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is Allah's messenger”
2-Prayer. Five times a day they pray the first seven verses of the Koran the fatiha [opening] that must be cited in Arabic and directed towards mecca.

In the name of god, the most beneficent, the most merciful
All appreciation, gratefulness and thankfulness are to Allah alone, lord of the worlds
The most beneficent, the most merciful
The possessor of the day of recompense (i.e., on the last day of judgment)
You we worship, and you we seek help
Direct all of us to the straight path (i.e., to the way of Islam)
The way of those on whom you have bestowed your grace, not the way of those who have earned your anger, nor of those who have lost their way and are astray

3-Almsgiving to the poor. However this is done to gain merit not out of compassion. 2.5% of their income.
4-Fasting during the month of Ramadan from sunrise to sundown.
5-Pilgrimage [hajj] to mecca at least once in their lifetime.
-Jihad or holy war is often called the sixth pillar of faith, jihad meaning “struggle.” And “Allah Akbar” simply means God is greater.

Growth of Islam

In the last 50 years Islam has increased by over 235% largely by birth rate to 1.2 billion people. Indonesia has 154 million Muslims and the Arab world a total of 140 million. 15% of Muslims live in middle east, most live in Asia. Islam is generally not spread by conversion but historically by fear and conquest. As Muslim forces moved into a territory often the citizens were given the choice of death or conversion and any Muslim who wanted to leave Islam faced death [more on this later]. Today Islam is spread by birth rates. As western countries reproduction drops below 2 per family, Islamic families around the world maintain 6 kids per family.

Muslim Demographics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU


My Objections to Islam- Muhammad Was a False Prophet

Of course if Muhammad was a false prophet than Islam is a false religion. Islam does not show the signs of being gods revelations to man but of a 7th century Arabians creation.

Was Muhammad a True Prophet of God?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Prophet-of-God


Islam Contradicts the Bible That the Koran Says is the Word of God

The Bible and the Koran contradict each other on many very important issues. Yet the Koran says the bible was from God and would substantiate its claims. Allah promised Jesus his followers will have power over those that try to corrupt his words. Christians and Jews were to judge by their Torah and gospel 5:47 5 42-44 [many other verses as well ] in the 7th century. The years after Muhammad death Muslims realized the bible contradicted the Koran, but since the Koran was true in their eyes, that must of meant that the bible as been edited and corrupted.

However this even goes against what the Koran says, that the gospel [NT] the Torah [OT] cannot be corrupted by man 28 48-49 6.114-115 18.27 10.64 15.9 [ verb nazzal same term used of Torah in 5.44 and injil [gospel] 5.47 also see 2.24 4.174 compare 5.44 5.46]. Muhammad himself believed in the Torah in his time and area Abu Dawud Book 33 no 4434. Muslims are said to ask the Jews and Christians to substantiate Muhammad as a prophet as they have god given writings of “guidance and light” [divine inspiration] 5.42-48 5.65-68 10.94 5.50 5.72. Christians in v 47 are to judge by what is reveled to them in the gospel in. The problem is that we have surviving manuscripts of entire bibles from not just Arabia, but all over. Not just the 7th century but hundreds of years earlier. showing the bible of the time of Muhammad when the Koran claims its gods word and would substantiate its message. Is the bible of today and thus the Koran contradicts itself and is false. It also brings up the question of why did god not protect his earlier scripture the Torah and gospel especially when the Koran says it did? if Christians did corrupt the bible, it is only because Allah willed it 2.253. Also why did Allah wait for the 7th century to have an accurate word of God if the bible has been corrupted?

No Historical Evidence for Islam pre 7th Century Arabia

The Koran is Gods eternal word in haven and does not change. The Koran claims that the prophets of old such as Moses, Adam, Jonah, Abraham, Jesus, John the Baptist etc all were Muslims and taught true Islam. The Koran says Jesus followers [who were Muslims] were teaching Islam 3.52-53 5.111 5.47 and those followers would be dominate until the day of resurrection [future] 3.55 61.14 and they would have victory over disbelievers.

says O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant
-Qu'ran 40 70-72

Yet their is no record of them or of Islamic teachings. Where is their historical evidence for Islamic doctrine before Muhammad? Jesus says words in the Koran that are not recorded in the first 600 years of christian history by friends or enemies. Instead we see biblical and christian doctrine, manuscripts, bibles and writings throughout history up until Muhammad. The Koran says there is nothing new in Koran that was not taught to earlier generations 41.42-44 [many other passages] . Further the Koran says in many places that apostles went out into all nations of the earth, why is there no evidence for Islam in preislamic nations?

The Death of Jesus on the Cross

“Forty Arabic words six hundred years after the events they describe, more than seven hundred and fifty miles fro Jerusalem....this is the entirety of the foundation upon witch the Islamic faith bases its denial of the crucifixion...When it comes to the cross, the Qur'an stands firmly and inallerabley against the mass of historical evidence.”
-James White What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur'an Bethany House publishing

Islam rejects the well established historical fact that Jesus died on the cross Sura 4.157-158 that even liberal atheist scholars must admit to.

"One of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on orders of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate.”
-Bart Ehrman

“Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death”
-Luke Timothy Johnson,#The Real Jesus#(San Francisco: Harper San Francisco, 1996), p. 123.

[Jesus]“Death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable.”
-Gerd Lüdemann

“slightest doubt about the fact of Jesus crucifixion under Pontius Pilate. That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be.”
-John Dominic Crossan

"I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . ."
-E. M. Blaiklock Professor of Classics Auckland University

Another subject related to crucifixion in the Koran the practice is said to be around since the time of Joseph 7.124 12.41 20.71 26.49. There is no historical support for this view.

The Koran Says Muhammad was Foretold in the Bible

Those who follow the Messenger, The unlettered Prophet, Whom they find mentioned In their own (Scriptures)—In the Law and the Gospel— ... It is they who will prosper. `
-Qur’an 7:157

And remember, Jesus, The son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (Sent) to you, confirming The Law (which came) Before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger To come after me, Whose name shall be Ahmad [i.e. Muhammad]."
-Qur’an 61:6

If Muhammad was the prophet of Allah told of in the Koran gods eternal word, than surely he would be clearly written of in the Bible as the Koran and its prophet Muhammad claimed. Yet the Koran does not give one quote from the Bible where this is to be found. The Koran says Jesus spoke of his coming [Muhammad] and people should know this by reading the Bible 10.94 despite no recorded history of Jesus saying this. The early Muslims believed Jews and Christians were awaiting a prophet of Arabia see Ibn Kathir 4.178. But in fact he fails as a biblical prophet and contradicts the Bible both the old testament and the new, in many places. See

Is Muhammed Prophesied in the Bible? James White vs Shabir Alley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He87MiAWq90
Zakir Hussain vs. James White: Is Muhammad Prophesied in the Bible?
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/09/...te-is.html


Scientific Objections and Islamic Superstition

We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars—(for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits, (so) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side, repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty, except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming Fire, of piercing brightness.
-Qur’an 37:6-10

And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and We have made such (lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
-Qur’an 67:5

They ask thee concerning Dhu al Qarnayn. Say, “I will rehearse to you Something of his story.” Verily We established his power On earth, and We gave him The ways and the means To all ends. One (such) way he followed, Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, He found it set In a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People.
-Qur'an 18:83-86

Allah, Muhammad and the Koran teach many superstitious beliefs more constant with an 7th century Arabian than a revelation from God. For example, shadows are animals bowing down to god 16.48-54. Stars are missiles to hit demons with 37 6-10 67.5. Allah turned Jews into monkeys and pigs 2 62-65 5 59-60 7.116. The sun sets in a pool of murky water. [Arabic pagan belief]

And the Sun Runs its course for a period determined For it; that is The decree of (Him), The exalted in Might, The All-Knowing. And the Moon—We have measured for it Mansions (to traverse) Till it returns Like the old (and withered) Lower part of a date stalk. It is not permitted To the Sun to catch up The Moon, nor can The Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along In (its own) orbit (According to Law)
-Qur’an 36:38-40

Muhammad said Satan can be in the upper part of peoples noses while they sleep causing them to wake up in the middle of the night so therefore people should blow their nose. Once satan urinated in a Muslims ear, causing him to not get up from bed to do his prayers. Satan farts so he does not hear certain prayers of Muslims. Crows crow, when they see a angel. Graying of a donkey means it has seen Satan. Yawning is from Satan. The sun rises between the two heads of Satan. A fever is from the heat of hell fire so treat it with water. Hell fire causes heat. Shooting stars were created to hit devils. Muhammad taught one wing on a fly has a disease, the other wing the cure. Adam was 90 feet tall. Allah transformed some Jews into apes because they did not follow the Sabbath 2.65-66. The Koran is not to be left open and unattended or a devil or jinn will come along and read it. And “if the Koran was wrapped in a skin and thrown into a fire it would not burn” al-tirmidui.652. Muhammad had concerning sanitary practices.

I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah: Water is brought for you from the well of Buda’ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual cloths and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything.
-Sunan Abu Dawud 67

It was narrated that Jabir bin Abdullah said: “We came to a pond in which there was the carcass of a donkey, so we refrained from using the water until the Messenger of Allah came to us and said: ‘Water is not made impure by anything.’ Then we drank from it and gave it to our animals to drink, and we carried some with us.”
-Sunan Ibn Majah 520—

[Mua’wiya said]: I saw the prophet sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire).
-Musnad Ahmad 16245

It is related that Abu Hurayra said, "I never saw al-Hasan without my eyes overflowing with tears. That is because the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out one day and I found him in the mosque. He took my hand and I went along with him. He did not speak to me until we reached the market of Banu Qaynuqa. He walked around it and looked. Then he left and I left with him until we reached the mosque. He sat down and wrapped himself in his garment. Then he said, 'Where is the little one? Call the little one to me.' Hasan came running and jumped into his lap. Then he put his hand in his beard. Then the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, opened his mouth and put his tongue in his mouth. Then he said, O Allah, I love him, so love him and the one who loves him!'"
(Al-Adabal-MufradAl-Bukhari,Number1183) Al-Adab al-Mufrad al-Bukhari 1183—

Contradictions

And when Allah said: O Isa,[Jesus] I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
-Koran 3.55

"So peace be upon me on the day I [Jesus] was born and the day of my death, and the day when I will be raised to life. "
-Koran 19.33

Jesus predicts his death and resurrection in 19.30-37 [also see 19.15] 3.55 [“Gathering you” means “I will cause you to die”] yet Muslims believe Jesus did not die on the cross, instead it was made to “appear to them” he died, instead he went to haven 4 157-158. This also brings up the issue of Islam explanation of Christianity. The bible says many false prophets will come after Jesus that will mislead many. So we would aspect a religion like Islam. But if Islam is true than Allah created the world biggest religion Christianity, by deceiving people into thinking Jesus died on the cross.

How can a impersonal god such as the god of the Koran create personal beings? If Allah is impersonal and does not reveal himself, than how do we know that Allah reveled to Muhammad? Allah is the greatest of deceivers, how than can we be assured he was not deceiving Muhammad? Allah is all knowing yet in 18.22 he is unsure how many people are saved. Allah tells us not to sin, but created us imperfect.

Islamic View of Woman

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.
-Qur'an 4:34 (Pickthall)

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great
-Qur'an 4:34 (Shakir)


And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
-Qur’an 4:3

Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess" [Qur’an 4:24]. That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."
-Sunan Abu Dawud 2150 Also see Sahih Muslim 3432 3384 3248 Sahih Muslim 3250

The Islamic view of woman is hard for me to accept. Men are allowed to beat their wives and lock them in separate rooms 4.34. The reason woman are veiled is because the sight of them unveiled causes angels to flee according to Ibn Ishaq. Woman cant testify in court in most cases under Islamic law, their testimony is not worth that of a mans when they can. Even Aisha's did not count in her claimed adultery while marries to Muhammad. To be found guilty of rape four male witnesses are needed and if a woman brings a man to court and four wont testify, she goes to jail. In Pakistan 75% of woman in jail are their for claiming rape but not able to produce four male witnesses. Woman are a pollutant during their time period 2.222. Men can have four wives 4.3, Mohammad was allowed eleven by Allah.

Muslim men can have sex with captures slaves and wives called muta. The Qur’an permits Muslims to have sex with their female captives and slaves (i.e. those "whom their right hands possess"). As the Muslim armies raided town after town, they captured many women, who would often be sold or traded. Yet, since the Muslim men were a long way from their wives, they needed wisdom from God to guide them in their treatment of their female captives:

The Believers must (Eventually) win through—Those who humble themselves In their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds Of charity; Who abstain from sex, Except with those joined To them in the marriage bond, Or (the captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (in their case) they are Free from blame.
-Qur’an 23:1-6

Quote:Not so those devoted To Prayer—Those who remain steadfast To their prayer; And those in whose wealth Is a recognized right For the (needy) who asks And him who is prevented (For some reason from asking); And those who hold To the truth of the Day Of Judgement; And those who fear The displeasure of their Lord—For their Lord’s displeasure Is the opposite of Peace And Tranquility—And those who guard Their chastity, Except with their wives And the (captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (then) they are not To be blamed.
-Qur'an 70:22-30

Quote:Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess" [Qur’an 4:24]. That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."
-Sunan Abu Dawud 2150[Also see Sahih Muslim 3432 Sahih Muslim 3371 Sahih Al-Bukhari 4138 Sahih Muslim 3384 Sahih Muslim 3248 Sahih Muslim 3250 [Sami Zaatari vs. David Wood: Is Muhammad a Good Role Model for Society?]

Not surprising Study: 19 of 20 Worst Countries for Women Are Muslim-Majority Countries http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014...ing+Muslims%29

Islam a Revelation From the Eternal God? Or a 7th Century Arabic Religion?

For claiming to be a revelation from the eternal God who spoke through Moses, Adam, Jesus etc Islam sure seems to fit what one would expect if a 7th century Arabian [Muhammad] who used local sources and created a man made religion. Muhammad was familiar with local Gnostic, Jewish and Talmud, christian and pagan beliefs and customs. Islam is a combination of them all. In fact Muhammad's understanding of the Bible often came from local Gnostic and heretical groups and the Talmud leading to his false doctrine on many Biblical issues that he believed were true. For example Local heretical christian groups used the Arabic infancy gospel of Thomas a forgery written in local Arabian that dates to the 6th century, and the Koran contains material from that gospel like Jesus speaking as a baby 3.46 19 29-33 Jesus making clay birds come to life 5.110 [bible says his first miracle was in john 2.11 as adult] presented as truth. local Gnostics did not believe Jesus died on the cross and it was either Judas or that Jesus just appeared to die, this is material the koran says is true. From the Talmud comes the Koranic story of the two sons of Adam found in sura 5.27 5.31 and Abraham being thrown in the fire and god cools the flames sura 21 68-69. Sura 18.9-26 derives from apocrypha writings acta sunctorum. Jinn, the lunar calender came from pre Islamic Jewish sources. Sura 19 22-26 derives from the gospel of pseudo-Matthew. The legend of Mt Sinai suspension by god in 2.63,93 4.154 7.171 comes from Jewish folklore in the Babylonian Talmud. Some of the prophets such as Jonah, Elijah, and Issac, appear in Arabic of the Koran as translated from Greek rather than Semitic[witch would be expected if those were divinely reveled. Who brought revaluations to Muhammad Gabriel or the holy spirit? 2.91 16.104 26.193 53.5 is Gabriel the holy spirit? Comes from a misunderstanding of Luke 1.26.

“Nothing in the Qur'anic text actually addresses the essence of christian faith [trinity] even though it is painfully clear the author thought he was doing so.”
-James White What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur'an Bethany House Publishers 2013

The Koran teaches a false view of the Trinity in 5.116 that includes Mary Jesus mother in the trinity. The Koran confused Miriam the sister of Moses with Mary Jesus mother in 19.28. Also see

James White vs. Bassam Zawadi: Does the Qur'an Misrepresent the Trinity?
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012...oes-quran.html ]

Muhammad came from the Arabian pagan tribe the Quraysh based in Mecca witch was the center for trade and pilgrimage for pagans with its local pagan shrine the Ka'bah as the holiest site in pre Islamic Arbia . One of his local pagan tribes deities was “Allah” the pagan moon god who's symbol is the crescent moon. Muhammad took 7th century Arabian culture and elevated it to religious status mixed in with local Jewish and christian groups theology on the one true god. Five prayers a day, prayers towards mecca, the fast of Ramadan, circling the ka'bah, dietary laws, clothing, woman's veil, woman wear black, men wear white, virgins a gift in heaven, the story of the sun setting in mirkey water, even the word muslim were all done by pre Islamic pagans. Muhammad just brought his local tribes “Allah” the moon God to a higher status. See

the religion of Islam by Dr. Ron Carlson
https://www.christianministriesintl.org/...ry=2827161

I think Islam as a whole pointed out by David Wood and why Muslims actually consume more during Ramadan, is man made. Muhammad made a religion for his 7th century fellow Arabs.

“Why do Muslims eat more when they're fasting than when they're not fasting? Why put a mask of piety on gluttony? The answer, I think, lies at the very heart of Islam. Islam does not make people more holy or spiritual. Rather, it gives them a religious framework for carrying their desires to perverse extremes. If a non-Muslim man hits a few clubs and somehow manages to have sex with ten women in one day, Islam will condemn him as a fornicator. But if this same man converts to Islam, marries four women, and takes six sex-slaves as his captives after a battle, he can be perfectly righteous before Allah, even if he has sex with ten women in one day. Likewise, if a man hires a prostitute and sleeps with her, he has sinned, according to Islam. But if the same man sets up a "temporary marriage" (a practice called "Muta"), he can hire the same prostitute, for the same amount of time, have sex with her in the exact same way, and bear no shame whatsoever in the Muslim community. If a psychopath goes on a killing spree, brutally murdering men, women, and children, he is surely going to hell, according to Islam—unless, of course, he is killing men, women, and children in a terrorist attack for the sake of Allah, in which case his violent massacre will earn him a one-way ticket to Paradise. Even according to Muslim sources, the tribes of Mecca were violent, lascivious, and gluttonous. Muhammad didn't change their behavior by forcing them to convert to Islam. He simply made their violence, lasciviousness, and gluttony pleasing to Allah. Should we be surprised that Ramadan is a month-long feast that Muslims call "fasting"?
-David Wood Why do Muslims eat More During Ramadan

Islamic View of Haven

Much of the Koranic version of heaven comes from the Zorastriods of Persia- not from christian and Jewish sources of haven as claimed. They also seem very human rather than divine. “High bosomed maidens” for companions in haven 78 31-33 Young boy servers who will seem like sprinkled pears 76 15-17 young boys will be there as waiters as fine as virgin pearls 52 22-31 bashful virgins 38.47-52 virgins and dark eyed virgins in heaven 55 53-67 53 -78 56 17-33 recline in couches and wed black eyed whores 52 15-22 37.37-50 36.55-60. In haven their are “voluptuous woman” 78.31 woman created virgins 56.36 some things forbidden in Koran like liberal use of wine, are allowed in haven.

The Koran, Violence, Jihad, and non Muslims

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. And those Jews (who came to you) say (as did some Jews who lived before): "Ezra (‘Uzayr) is God's son"; and (as a general assertion) the Christians say: "The Messiah is God's son. " Such are merely their verbal assertions in imitation of the utterances of some unbelievers who preceded them. May God destroy them! How can they be turned away from the truth and make such assertions?
-Koran 9.29-30

Islam is perhaps most well known among non Muslims for its violence and violence committed in the name of Islam despite western liberalism attempts to hide it. Often 5.32 is used to try and convince us Islam is peaceful. However even here according to the Koran this is a a teaching to the children of Israel, not Muslims. 2.62 another passage, refers to Christians and Jews who converted to Islam. Islam is known as the religion of the sword. The Saudi Arabia flag is a Islamic sword. Of course if Allah is violent or commands his followers to be, that does not disprove Islam in any way, it just proves god is violent or thinks it justified in certain circumstances. But just to piss off the PC crown here are some Koranic passages justifying violence.

9.38-39 those who don't fight for Islam will be punished. The best deed a Muslim can perform is armed struggle [jihad]. Paradise is a reward for fighting for Allah 9.111. Muslims are to fight till Allah alone is worshiped 2.193. God allows Muslims to be killed in battle to test there faith 3.152-154 3.166. It is no concern to believers if god kills non believers in battle 3.126-131 Fight those who believe not in Allah 9:29. Muslims were created to help Muhammad in war 9.40 Allah sends thunderbolts at who he chooses 13.12-13. Muslims cannot enter paradise until you proven in battle your a true believer 3.140-144 those that fight [in battle] for Islam in war receive heaven, hell for those that dont 48.16-20 those that die in battle for islam will go to paradise 47 4-6 those that die in battle will be forgiven all there sins, and will go to heaven 3.195 promised reward for those that fight in battle 4.95-97 98-101 3.169-172 9.87-90 4.74 9.89 die in jihad guarantee paradise 9.111. True believers will beg to go to war 9.43-47 believers will kill, and be killed for the cause of god 9.111 Muhammad was called to rouse believers to fight 8.62-66 go to war well armed or ill equipped to march and fight for the cause of Allah 9.41. Beheading comes from 8.9 12-13 Allah sent angels to behead the enemies of Islam. Muslims are told to behead your enemies 47.4. Armed men during prayer, believers must always be on guard 4.102. those that make war against allah or Muhammad shall be slain or crucified 5.33. if anyone thinks god will not give victory to Muhammad they should hang themselves 22.15-16.

Unbelievers

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
-Koran 9.5

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”
-Qur’an 9:123

Muhammad said “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah.”
-Sahih Muslim 33

Islam is only religion in world that has mandate violence against non believers. Unbelievers are enemies 4.101 fight against them until idolatry is no more and gods religion reigns supreme 2.192-93. Muhammad is to make war with nonbelievers and deal sternly with them 66.9. large numbers of mass killings by Allah towards unbelievers in Koran are found. Allah tells Muhammad not to pray for enemies 9.80 9.84. No forgiveness for those who reject allah and his prophet 9.80. Muslims are the best of people 3.110 Jews and christian are the worse of creatures 98.6

O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
-Qur’an 5:51

God tells Muhammad to make war on unbelievers and hypocrites and to deal rigorously with them 9.73-74 make war on infidels who who live around you 9.123 Make war on idolaters until Islam reins supreme 8.29-40 dont let unbelievers think they will ever get away, muster against them all men and Calvary strike terror into the enemies of god 8.57-60 Make war with unbelievers 9.1-13 unless they join the faith- fight against unbelievers who have been given scripture and do not believe [Jews Christians] until they pay tribute and are subdued 9.29-31. “So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them” 47.4. It is evil to be friends with unbelievers 5 80-82. Jews Christians are perverse 9.29-30

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.
-Qur’an 98:6

So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them
-Koran: 47.4

It has been narrated by ‘Umar b. al-Khattab that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.
-Sahih Muslim 4366

What if If Muslims do not Fight?

Fighting is obligated for believers much as they dislike it 2.216. You cannot enter paradise until you proven in battle your a true believer 3.140-144. Muslims were created to help Muhammad in war 9.40.Those that fight [in battle] for Islam in war receive heaven, hell for those that dont 48.16-20. a woeful scourge falls on Arabs who do not fight in war 9.87-90 9.38-39 . Muslims are to put to death deserter wherever you find them 4 87-90. Those that dont fight in battle for god are not equal to those that do 4.95 Those that dont fight that are able, are unclean and will be punished in hell 9.94-96. God will strike off the heads and fingertips of unbelievers if any believer turns his back to infidels on the march he will receive wrath from god and hell fire 8.15-16. Believers who fight in war for Islam are not to be friends with those who have yet to join in war 8.70-75. Muslims who fight for god are held higher by god than others and are promised paradise 9.20-22.

Jihad

“As for killing.... Allah says we should decapitate,we should amputate the limbs, we should mutilate.... we are fighting a religious war....we are fighting Christians”
-Boko Haram leader Abubakar Shekau dec 2013

“Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment
-Koran 5.33

There are three stages in Islam, when they are outnumbered and not in power [such as in the west] they can legitimize peacefulness and tolerance 1.09 and when Muslims feel threaten they can seek peace, they can pretend to be peaceful outwardly, but not inwardly 3.28. Than when they gain power there is defensive jihad 22 39-40. Lastly when they have the advantage and are in power [see Muslim nations for examples] they are on offensive expansionist Jihad sura 9.39. When Islam has the upper hand such as Muhammad had after he became leader of Medina, they are to never ask for peace 47.35. However there are four kinds of jihad in Islam.

Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bil qalb/nafs) is concerned with combating “evil” (i.e. un-Islamic) desires and the devil in the attempt to escape his persuasion to evil. In other words it is the “internal” jihad.

Jihad by the tongue/pen (jihad bil lisan/qallam) is concerned with spreading the word of Islam with one’s tongue or writing and the verbal (or written) defence of Islam.

Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to choosing to do what is right and to combat injustice and what is wrong in Islamic terms with action, e.g. protest, demanding “special consideration” etc. Some writers see this “hand-jihad” as subsuming the sword-jihad (below{1}).

Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabili Allahi ([armed] fighting in the way of Allah, or holy war), this is the most common usage by Salafi and Wahhabi Muslims and the most ancient. For example, Sahih Bukhari (the pre-eminent Hadith collection of Sunni Islam) has almost 200 references to jihad and 98% (~196) of them refer to it in the sense of armed warfare against non-Muslims. 98% of his hadith relating to jihad refer to sword jihad “Asbab al-Nuzul.” Ali ibn Ahmad al-Wahidi (Trans. Mokrane Guezzou), 2008 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan.

“Jihad of the sword” that has been the primary understanding of jihad in Islamic history and jurisprudence is beyond doubt”.“when the word jihad occurs in the koran without any modifier or with the typical modifier “in the cause of allah” it invariably refers to armed combat on behalf of islam. It is often linked with the word qital in the context of dealing with unbelievers...“Muhammad himself was engaged regularly in a military jihad and commanded his followers to engage in it as well”.”
-Dr Mateen Elass. Understanding the koran a quick christian guide to the Muslim holy book

Thus whilst jihad is not only warfare the vast majority of it is. This has been the historical actions and beliefs of Muslims from the time of Muhammad before western liberalism. In the century after Muhammad died with Abu Bakr as leader, Islam spread through expansionist jihad across north Africa up to Spain across Asia and India.

“expansion jihad clearly understood by Muslims at the time of Muhammad death in one century Islam expanded from a limited religion of the Arabian peninsula to a empire across N africa up to spain in west and across asia and india in east”
-Dr Mateen Elass Understanding the koran a quick christian guide to the Muslim holy book Dr Mateen Elass.

“Indeed, the reward in God's book for jihad in God's path is something for which a Muslim should love to be singled out, by which God saved [people] from humiliation, and through which He has bestowed nobility in this world and the next. (Tabari 11:80 / 2083—84)
-Abu Bakr

“In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.
-Ibn Khaldun The Muqaddimah: an Introduction to History (abridged), trans. Franz Rosenthal, Princeton UP, 1967, p.183)


The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it."
- Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50: Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Apostasy

Ibn Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his (Islamic) religion, kill him.”
-Al-Bukhary (number 6922)

Abd-Allah ibn Masood said: The Messenger of Allah said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah, except in one of three cases: a soul (in case of murder); a married person who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and separates from the main body of Muslims.”
-Sahih Al Bukhary number 6484 and Sahih Muslim number 1676

Quote:

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Originally Posted by total relism

Contradictions

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I applaud you. So Bible has no contradictions, while Koran does? What about the whole picture and puzzle pieces?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by total relism

How can a impersonal god such as the god of the Koran create personal beings?

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I believe in the same maaner as Christian God can create two physically different creatures (man and woman) as an exact image of himself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by total relism

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.
-Qur'an 4:34 (Pickthall)

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great
-Qur'an 4:34 (Shakir)

---

How iniquitous! How terrible is the inferior position of islamic women. Wait! IIRC:

Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, obey your husbands as you obey the Lord.

23 The husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church people. The church is his body and he saved it.

24 Wives should obey their husbands in everything, just as the church people obey Christ.

:shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

The Islamic view of woman is hard for me to accept.

---

One more hearty applause. From me and from Ephesians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Men are allowed to beat their wives and lock them in separate rooms 4.34. The reason woman are veiled is because the sight of them unveiled causes angels to flee according to Ibn Ishaq. Woman cant testify in court in most cases under Islamic law, their testimony is not worth that of a mans when they can. Even Aisha's did not count in her claimed adultery while marries to Muhammad. To be found guilty of rape four male witnesses are needed and if a woman brings a man to court and four wont testify, she goes to jail. In Pakistan 75% of woman in jail are their for claiming rape but not able to produce four male witnesses. Woman are a pollutant during their time period 2.222. Men can have four wives 4.3, Mohammad was allowed eleven by Allah.

Muslim men can have sex with captures slaves and wives called muta. The Qur’an permits Muslims to have sex with their female captives and slaves (i.e. those "whom their right hands possess"). As the Muslim armies raided town after town, they captured many women, who would often be sold or traded. Yet, since the Muslim men were a long way from their wives, they needed wisdom from God to guide them in their treatment of their female captives:

---

For me, it is not that important what a book says. It is what people who read the book do which matters.
And as for actions, everything that is said above can as well be spotted in Christian countries and done by Christians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Islam is perhaps most well known among non Muslims for its violence and violence committed in the name of Islam despite western liberalism attempts to hide it. Often 5.32 is used to try and convince us Islam is peaceful. However even here according to the Koran this is a a teaching to the children of Israel, not Muslims. 2.62 another passage, refers to Christians and Jews who converted to Islam. Islam is known as the religion of the sword. The Saudi Arabia flag is a Islamic sword. Of course if Allah is violent or commands his followers to be, that does not disprove Islam in any way, it just proves god is violent or thinks it justified in certain circumstances. But just to piss off the PC crown here are some Koranic passages justifying violence.

---

Again, the actions matter. I'm sure Christians have murdered no fewer people (both of their own faith and otherwise) than Muslims.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Muhammad said “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah.”
-Sahih Muslim 33[/I]

Islam is only religion in world that has mandate violence against non believers. Unbelievers are enemies 4.101 fight against them until idolatry is no more and gods religion reigns supreme 2.192-93. Muhammad is to make war with nonbelievers and deal sternly with them 66.9. large numbers of mass killings by Allah towards unbelievers in Koran are found. Allah tells Muhammad not to pray for enemies 9.80 9.84. No forgiveness for those who reject allah and his prophet 9.80. Muslims are the best of people 3.110 Jews and christian are the worse of creatures 98.6

---

We've been through it all. In Bible God promises punishment onto all and sundry (including their innocent children) if they pray to another God.

Deuteronomy 5:9
'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

Everybody resents competition. :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

The God of the bible loves all and loves unconditional. “But god demonstrated his love for us that while we were sinners Christ died for us” Romans 5.8. Allah said god will love you, if you love him first 3.30-35 and believers need to help god, for him to help them 47.5-11. Jesus said of those who love only those who love them “if you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?” Matt 5.46. When being nailed to the cross after being beaten, scourged, spat at etc he prayed to god for those nailing him to the cross "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Luke 23.34.

The God of the bible is very different. "The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" 2Pet. 3.9. "He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" 1Tim. 2.4.

---

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Cruelty and Violence in the Bible

Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8
"I will destroy ... both man and beast."
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17
"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4
"All flesh died that moved upon the earth."
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23
God sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17
God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10
Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6
"I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32
Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8
God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24
Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26
God gets angry with king Abimelech, though the king hasn't even touched Sarah. He says to the king, "Behold, thou art but a dead man," and threatens to kill him and all of his people. To compensate for the crime he never committed, Abimelech gives Abraham sheep, oxen, slaves, silver, and land. Finally, after Abraham "prayed unto God," God lifts his punishment to Abimelech, "for the Lord had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah." 20:3-18
Sarah, after giving birth to Isaac, gets angry again at Hagar (see 16:5-6) and tells Abraham to 'cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands Abraham to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14
God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13
Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10
"Because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son."
Why did God love Abraham so much? Because he was willing to murder his son for him. (Greater evil hath no man than this, that he is willing to kill his own son for God.) 22:16
Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31
"The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5
"And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7
After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10
After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24
Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19
God brought a seven year, "very grievous" famine on the whole earth for no apparent reason (except maybe to make Joseph wealthy). 41:25-32, 54
Exodus
Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12
"I will ... smite Egypt with all my wonders." 3:20
God threatens to kill the Pharaoh's firstborn son. 4:23
God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26
Moses and Aaron ask the Pharaoh to let all the Israelites go into the desert to pray for three days, or else God will kill them all "with pestilence, or with the sword." 5:3
"Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh." 6:1
God will make sure that Pharaoh does not listen to Moses, so that he can kill Egyptians with his armies. 7:4
"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." Who else could be so cruel and unjust? 7:5, 17
God tells Moses and Aaron to smite the river and turn it into blood. This is the first of the famous 10 plagues of Egypt. 7:17-24
The fifth plague: all cattle in Egypt die.
But a little later (9:19-20, 12:29), God kills them again a couple more times. 9:6
The sixth plague: boils and blains upon man and beast. 9:9-12
"For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth." Who else but the biblical god could be so cruel? 9:14
God gave power to the Pharaoh so that he could show off his own power by killing him. 9:15-16
The seventh plague is hail. "And the hail smote throughout the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast." 9:22-25
God wants to be remembered forever for the mass murder of little children. 10:2
These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by God was premeditated. (see 12:29-30) 11:4-6
God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7
God explains to Moses that he intends to "smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. 12:12
After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. 12:29
To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 12, 15
"I will harden Pharaoh's heart." 14:4
After hardening Pharaoh's heart a few more times, God drowns Pharaoh's army in the sea. 14:4-28
The LORD shall fight for you. 14:14
"I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour." 14:17
"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen." 14:18
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians." 14:26
"And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians." 14:31
Moses and the people sing praises to their murderous god. 15:1-19
"The Lord is a man of war." Indeed, judging from his acts in the Old Testament, he is a vicious warlike monster. 15:3
God's right hand dashes people in pieces. 15:6
"For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them." 15:19
"Horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea." 15:21
If you do what God says, he won't send his diseases on you (like he did to the Egyptians). But otherwise.... 15:26
Joshua, with God's approval, kills the Amalekites "with the edge of the sword." 17:13
"I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven." 17:14
"The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." So God is still fighting Amalek. I hope Moses can still keep his hand up. 17:14-16
Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or "shot through." Did Moses impose such severe penalties because he feared that someone might see him fake his meeting with God? 19:12-13
Like the great and powerful Wizard of Oz, nobody can see God and live. 19:21
God gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says that if we will make such "burnt offerings," he will bless us for it. What kind of mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24
A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17
It's okay to beat your slaves; even if they die you won't be punished, just as long as they survive a day or two after the beating (see verses 21:20-21). But avoid excessive damage to their eyes or teeth. Otherwise you may have to set them free. 21:26-27
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 21:24-25
If an ox gores someone, "then the ox shall surely be stoned." 21:28
If an ox gores someone due to the negligence of its owner, then "the ox shall be stoned, and his owner shall be put to death.". 21:29
If an ox gores a slave, the owner of the ox must pay the owner of the slave 30 shekels of silver, and "the ox shall be stoned." 21:32
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
"Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death." Is it really necessary to kill such people? Couldn't we just send them to counseling or something? 22:19
"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
If you make God angry enough, he will kill you and your family with his own sword. 22:24
"The firstborn of thy sons thou shalt give unto me." (As a burnt offering?) 22:29
God promises to "send his fear before the Israelites" and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. 23:27
God has hornets that bite and kill people. 23:28
Moses has some animals killed and their dead bodies burned for God. Then he sprinkles their blood on the altar and on the people. This makes God happy. 24:5-8
Get some animals, kill them, chop up their bodies, wave body parts in the air, burn the carcasses, and sprinkle the blood all around -- in precisely the way God tells you. It may well make you sick, but it makes God feel good. 29:11-37
Have you killed and offered your bullock for a sin offering today? How about the two lambs you are supposed to offer each day? 29:36-39
Wash up or die. This is a good verse to use when reminding the kiddies to wash their hands before supper. 30:20
Whoever puts holy oil on a stranger shall be "cut off from his people." 30:33
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
God asks to be left alone so that his "wrath may wax hot" and he can "consume them. 32:10
Moses burned the golden calf, ground it into powder, and then forced it down the throats of all the people. 32:20
God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor." "And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men." 32:27-28
"Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." 32:33
But God wasn't satisfied with the slaughter of the 3000, so he killed some more people with a plague. 32:35
If you can't redeem him, then just "break his neck." Hey, it's all for the glory of God. 34:20
Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." 35:2-3

And this is only in Genesis!

Allah certainly changed his mind a lot

Just read the atlas of middle earth, very good stuff. Reading the hobbit to the kids, still on first chapter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I applaud you. So Bible has no contradictions, while Koran does? What about the whole picture and puzzle pieces?

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I of course said no, the bible has no contradictions. I am also not tacking little nit picking supposed contradictions that i am sure a Muslim could reconcile and comes fro my lack of knowledge. No I am saying that Muhammad said he was in line with the bible as a major claim, yet this is not the case on the most basic levels. That is why it is not labeled "contradictions" as you have said i said, but

"Islam Contradicts the Bible That the Koran Says is the Word of God"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I believe in the same maaner as Christian God can create two physically different creatures (man and woman) as an exact image of himself.

---

I would say that is because the image of god is not physical but spiritual. Not really the subject of this thread though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

How iniquitous! How terrible is the inferior position of islamic women. Wait! IIRC:

Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, obey your husbands as you obey the Lord.

23 The husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church people. The church is his body and he saved it.

24 Wives should obey their husbands in everything, just as the church people obey Christ.

:shrug:

---

I do not object to the man being the head of the house in islam. However a vast difference in this is in the bible it was not originally so but a punishment for sin [just as man was punished in other ways] in islam it is part of the created order. Beating them was an issue for me. As for your passages please see under "woman and the bible" here on the thread it belongs.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...s-to-the-Bible

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

For me, it is not that important what a book says. It is what people who read the book do which matters.
And as for actions, everything that is said above can as well be spotted in Christian countries and done by Christians.

---

I am the opposite. men are sinners and will do bad things. so if someone claims to be a christian and yet sins, that makes sense to me.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3.23

if a belief system allows certain evils, and we find them used often in area that accept it as an authority, than that also makes sense. Its illogical but it is also hard for me to accept the creator would allow and demand such things. Though I understand it is just my upbringing and emotions that are saying that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Again, the actions matter. I'm sure Christians have murdered no fewer people (both of their own faith and otherwise) than Muslims.

---

and for me actions follow beliefs, this is common sense and you do it everyday. If you did not believe you typing would form words and post on this thread, you would not do the actions to post here. I am not comparing Christians [who are sinners] with Muslims [who are sinners]. I am comparing the koran and Islam, and the bible. I dont care how imperfect its followers follow those authorities, just what those authority say and see witch if any are truly from god or not as they both claim.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

We've been through it all. In Bible God promises punishment onto all and sundry (including their innocent children) if they pray to another God.

Deuteronomy 5:9
'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

Everybody resents competition. :shrug:

---

Indeed we have bee through it. That is why i suggest we keep it on that thread that provides an answer for you that you chose to ignore so you can say this verse somehow mandates violence against non believers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Cruelty and Violence in the Bible

Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8
"I will destroy ... both man and beast."
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17
"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4
"All flesh died that moved upon the earth."
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23
God sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17
God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10
Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6
"I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32
Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8
God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24
Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26
God gets angry with king Abimelech, though the king hasn't even touched Sarah. He says to the king, "Behold, thou art but a dead man," and threatens to kill him and all of his people. To compensate for the crime he never committed, Abimelech gives Abraham sheep, oxen, slaves, silver, and land. Finally, after Abraham "prayed unto God," God lifts his punishment to Abimelech, "for the Lord had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah." 20:3-18
Sarah, after giving birth to Isaac, gets angry again at Hagar (see 16:5-6) and tells Abraham to 'cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands Abraham to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14
God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13
Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10
"Because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son."
Why did God love Abraham so much? Because he was willing to murder his son for him. (Greater evil hath no man than this, that he is willing to kill his own son for God.) 22:16
Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31
"The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5
"And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7
After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10
After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24
Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19
God brought a seven year, "very grievous" famine on the whole earth for no apparent reason (except maybe to make Joseph wealthy). 41:25-32, 54
Exodus
Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12
"I will ... smite Egypt with all my wonders." 3:20
God threatens to kill the Pharaoh's firstborn son. 4:23
God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26
Moses and Aaron ask the Pharaoh to let all the Israelites go into the desert to pray for three days, or else God will kill them all "with pestilence, or with the sword." 5:3
"Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh." 6:1
God will make sure that Pharaoh does not listen to Moses, so that he can kill Egyptians with his armies. 7:4
"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." Who else could be so cruel and unjust? 7:5, 17
God tells Moses and Aaron to smite the river and turn it into blood. This is the first of the famous 10 plagues of Egypt. 7:17-24
The fifth plague: all cattle in Egypt die.
But a little later (9:19-20, 12:29), God kills them again a couple more times. 9:6
The sixth plague: boils and blains upon man and beast. 9:9-12
"For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth." Who else but the biblical god could be so cruel? 9:14
God gave power to the Pharaoh so that he could show off his own power by killing him. 9:15-16
The seventh plague is hail. "And the hail smote throughout the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast." 9:22-25
God wants to be remembered forever for the mass murder of little children. 10:2
These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by God was premeditated. (see 12:29-30) 11:4-6
God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7
God explains to Moses that he intends to "smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. 12:12
After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. 12:29
To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 12, 15
"I will harden Pharaoh's heart." 14:4
After hardening Pharaoh's heart a few more times, God drowns Pharaoh's army in the sea. 14:4-28
The LORD shall fight for you. 14:14
"I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour." 14:17
"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen." 14:18
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians." 14:26
"And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians." 14:31
Moses and the people sing praises to their murderous god. 15:1-19
"The Lord is a man of war." Indeed, judging from his acts in the Old Testament, he is a vicious warlike monster. 15:3
God's right hand dashes people in pieces. 15:6
"For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them." 15:19
"Horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea." 15:21
If you do what God says, he won't send his diseases on you (like he did to the Egyptians). But otherwise.... 15:26
Joshua, with God's approval, kills the Amalekites "with the edge of the sword." 17:13
"I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven." 17:14
"The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." So God is still fighting Amalek. I hope Moses can still keep his hand up. 17:14-16
Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or "shot through." Did Moses impose such severe penalties because he feared that someone might see him fake his meeting with God? 19:12-13
Like the great and powerful Wizard of Oz, nobody can see God and live. 19:21
God gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says that if we will make such "burnt offerings," he will bless us for it. What kind of mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24
A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17
It's okay to beat your slaves; even if they die you won't be punished, just as long as they survive a day or two after the beating (see verses 21:20-21). But avoid excessive damage to their eyes or teeth. Otherwise you may have to set them free. 21:26-27
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 21:24-25
If an ox gores someone, "then the ox shall surely be stoned." 21:28
If an ox gores someone due to the negligence of its owner, then "the ox shall be stoned, and his owner shall be put to death.". 21:29
If an ox gores a slave, the owner of the ox must pay the owner of the slave 30 shekels of silver, and "the ox shall be stoned." 21:32
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
"Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death." Is it really necessary to kill such people? Couldn't we just send them to counseling or something? 22:19
"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
If you make God angry enough, he will kill you and your family with his own sword. 22:24
"The firstborn of thy sons thou shalt give unto me." (As a burnt offering?) 22:29
God promises to "send his fear before the Israelites" and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. 23:27
God has hornets that bite and kill people. 23:28
Moses has some animals killed and their dead bodies burned for God. Then he sprinkles their blood on the altar and on the people. This makes God happy. 24:5-8
Get some animals, kill them, chop up their bodies, wave body parts in the air, burn the carcasses, and sprinkle the blood all around -- in precisely the way God tells you. It may well make you sick, but it makes God feel good. 29:11-37
Have you killed and offered your bullock for a sin offering today? How about the two lambs you are supposed to offer each day? 29:36-39
Wash up or die. This is a good verse to use when reminding the kiddies to wash their hands before supper. 30:20
Whoever puts holy oil on a stranger shall be "cut off from his people." 30:33
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
God asks to be left alone so that his "wrath may wax hot" and he can "consume them. 32:10
Moses burned the golden calf, ground it into powder, and then forced it down the throats of all the people. 32:20
God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor." "And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men." 32:27-28
"Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." 32:33
But God wasn't satisfied with the slaughter of the 3000, so he killed some more people with a plague. 32:35
If you can't redeem him, then just "break his neck." Hey, it's all for the glory of God. 34:20
Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." 35:2-3

And this is only in Genesis!

---

and shows you have never read the bible. But yes lots of violence is in the bible, men are sinners. However you quoted a section where i show the god of the bible is all loving and loves unconditional. Where as the god as portrayed in the koran love is conditional. That has nothing to do with violence in the bible or the Koran. Please read more carefully next time.

And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,keeping mercy for thousands,forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty
Exodus 34 6-7

Quote:

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Originally Posted by total relism

and shows you have never read the bible. But yes lots of violence is in the bible, men are sinners. However you quoted a section where i show the god of the bible is all loving and loves unconditional. Where as the god as portrayed in the koran love is conditional. That has nothing to do with violence in the bible or the Koran. Please read more carefully next time.

And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,keeping mercy for thousands,forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty
Exodus 34 6-7

---

Did Moses lead the Jews into the Promised Land? If not, why not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Just read the atlas of middle earth, very good stuff. Reading the hobbit to the kids, still on first chapter.

I of course said no, the bible has no contradictions.

---

It's a pity PFH doesn't here any more, as he, a trained theologian (unlike an amateur like yourself), would be able to point out half a dozen contradictions in the very first chapter, as well as explain why these contradictions are there and their historical context. IIRC he might be able to point to yet more contradictions in related holy texts that didn't make it into the official version, and the historical context of why they might not have made it into the official version.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

It's a pity PFH doesn't here any more, as he, a trained theologian (unlike an amateur like yourself), would be able to point out half a dozen contradictions in the very first chapter, as well as explain why these contradictions are there and their historical context. IIRC he might be able to point to yet more contradictions in related holy texts that didn't make it into the official version, and the historical context of why they might not have made it into the official version.

---

Well your in luck, I will be doing a thread showing how conservative theologians have responded to the supposed contradictions and show they come from lack of understanding, or often translation mistakes from the king james. I never said people wont claim such, liberals will claim almost anything. I said their is no contradictions that can be shown to be true properly understood. This thread however is on islam.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Did Moses lead the Jews into the Promised Land? If not, why not?

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not sure how this has anything to do with the thread but no he did not, joshua did.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

not sure how this has anything to do with the thread but no he did not, joshua did.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan

---

IIRC Moses transgressed in some way or other, as a result of which God denied him the honour of leading the Israelites into the Promised Land. Looking up on wiki, the story is that some of the Israelites quailed at the prospect of fighting against the Canaanites, and God thus cursed the generation not to enter the Promised Land. So much for unconditional love.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Well your in luck, I will be doing a thread showing how conservative theologians have responded to the supposed contradictions and show they come from lack of understanding, or often translation mistakes from the king james. I never said people wont claim such, liberals will claim almost anything. I said their is no contradictions that can be shown to be true properly understood. This thread however is on islam.

---

PFH isn't a liberal claiming these things. He's a scholar in theology who's studied the texts and history constituting the Bible. He knows rather more about these things than you. And there shouldn't be any distinction between liberals and conservative theologians. There are scholars who apply proper rigour to their study of historical evidence, and there are frauds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

No I am saying that Muhammad said he was in line with the bible as a major claim, yet this is not the case on the most basic levels. That is why it is not labeled "contradictions" as you have said i said, but

"Islam Contradicts the Bible That the Koran Says is the Word of God"

---

Koran is a different book containing tenets of a different religion, I don't see why it should be in line with any other holy book.

As for contradictions between words and deeds, we might as well remember Christian view on crime, and then compare it with the order Jesus gave to his followers to commandeer a donkey so that he could reach Jerusalem in more comfort. Words =/= deeds :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by total relism

I would say that is because the image of god is not physical but spiritual. Not really the subject of this thread though.

---

Going around in circles about how a visual picture (AKA image) can be spiritual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

I am the opposite. men are sinners and will do bad things. so if someone claims to be a christian and yet sins, that makes sense to me.

if a belief system allows certain evils, and we find them used often in area that accept it as an authority, than that also makes sense. Its illogical but it is also hard for me to accept the creator would allow and demand such things. Though I understand it is just my upbringing and emotions that are saying that.

and for me actions follow beliefs, this is common sense and you do it everyday. If you did not believe you typing would form words and post on this thread, you would not do the actions to post here. I am not comparing Christians [who are sinners] with Muslims [who are sinners]. I am comparing the koran and Islam, and the bible. I dont care how imperfect its followers follow those authorities, just what those authority say and see witch if any are truly from god or not as they both claim.

---

People can do terrible things concealing them underneath fair garments. One can remember Communist ideology of equality and world brotherhood which allowed its followers to murder others (including lots of priests) whom they saw as recalcitrant. Or, keeping to the topic of religion, the Crusades.

In Ukraine priests are very often seen committing sins and even crimes they are supposed to shy away from. Like the head of the largest (and therefore the holiest) monastery in Ukraine was stopped by the police for violating traffic rules. He didn't admit his guilt, but he asked the police officer if he had been to church and said his prayers that morning. If he hadn't, he had no right to stop priest for whatever reason. Then he got into his car and drove away. The HEAD of the largest MONASTERY! THE CHIEF MONK of Ukraine, one may say! And you will tell me that the books he reads matter? :laugh4:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by total relism

and shows you have never read the bible.

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Indeed it would be too rush to make such claims. I read it (with a great effort, though, as it was an incredibly boring reading, yet I saw it through). I don't discuss things I have no knowledge of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by total relism

But yes lots of violence is in the bible, men are sinners. However you quoted a section where i show the god of the bible is all loving and loves unconditional.

---

YOU showed? I read the Bible myself and I believe I have as much right to iterpret its texts as you do. As you would put it, God gave me brains so that I could understand things around me.

As I have remarked at the beginning of all this to-do, Bible is the poorest choice for a discussion since it contains heaps of contradictory advice. It is how you approach it and what you choose that matters. So much for words and deeds, btw.

As for "unconditional love": shall I again quote the part where a person (and his offspring in several generations) was cursed just because he prayed to another God? So the main condition of God's love in Bible, as I see it, boils down to staying Christian. If you do, he will forgive you everything.

I argued about this incessantly with PFH.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ran-discussion

I look back and cringe at the lack of respect between me and this guy (which wasn't just limited to that discussion) but there's some useful info there. I try to avoid this kind of confrontation online now because it's sad.

He did call atheism "populist rubbish." The irony.

The irony of atheism is that rejecting is acknowledging, I am simply nothing at all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

IIRC Moses transgressed in some way or other, as a result of which God denied him the honour of leading the Israelites into the Promised Land. Looking up on wiki, the story is that some of the Israelites quailed at the prospect of fighting against the Canaanites, and God thus cursed the generation not to enter the Promised Land. So much for unconditional love.

---

I am aware but would rather not look it up on wiki but the bible. I can see what you are saying now but i am not sure you grasp unconditional love. I love my children unconditionally, yet that does not mean i punish them. Moses was held in high regard as much as any human by god in his life and after and is in haven with the lord [see matt 17]. Are you suggesting that this does not include moses? “But god demonstrated his love for us that while we were sinners Christ died for us” Romans 5.8. Punishment is not based on lack of love, in fact we punish and correct because we love.

because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
hebrews 12.6

because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in
proverbs 3.12



Go visit people in jail and ask them if they had a loving father who cared for them enough to discipline them. I think you already know the answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Indeed it would be too rush to make such claims. I read it (with a great effort, though, as it was an incredibly boring reading, yet I saw it through). I don't discuss things I have no knowledge of.


YOU showed? I read the Bible myself and I believe I have as much right to iterpret its texts as you do. As you would put it, God gave me brains so that I could understand things around me.

As I have remarked at the beginning of all this to-do, Bible is the poorest choice for a discussion since it contains heaps of contradictory advice. It is how you approach it and what you choose that matters. So much for words and deeds, btw.

As for "unconditional love": shall I again quote the part where a person (and his offspring in several generations) was cursed just because he prayed to another God? So the main condition of God's love in Bible, as I see it, boils down to staying Christian. If you do, he will forgive you everything.

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Than i am surprised by your list. Perhaps you should more closely look it over.


Yes I showed the bible portrays a god who loves unconditionally, can you refute this? The problem we have is when people want to "interpret" the bible in their own way. That really means make the bible say whatever liberals and secularist tell them it says, witch is what they want it to say rather than what it says. I dont blame you, i wish i could do the same with the federal tax code.


The problem is the human heart wants to make an idol and twist god into what they want. You want to make it contradict itself [even if shown it does not] so you can than say this cant be from god [good because i dont like what it says] so i can reject it.



you said "it contains heaps of contradictory advice. It is how you approach it and what you choose that matters"

This is my point. You dont see it as what it claims gods word [we would not want that] so anything you can try and make a contradiction, you will so as to justify intellectually your rejection of it. You chose to ignore text that clarify claimed contradictions [as i have shown on other threads] and come with an approach to it to try and find an escuse to create contradictions. As i have said before i always make threads on various objections and people say they dont believe for some other reason [as you always bring up contradictions] I will make a thread specific for contradictions and on that thread you can bring up any claimed you wish and i will respond. I will even pm you before i put it up so you can be the first.


This is another reason why i am not convinced you have read the bible. A few ways to correct your post. First as we have been through this before god does not punish the next generation for the sins of the father. It is only when you take the human commentary of chapters and verses and try and make an entire theology out of it rather than the text witch is gods word, that you can create a fake theology that says god punishes the next generation for the sins of the father.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Ezekiel 18:20

they continue in fathers sins will cause judgment, otherwise god would relent example 1 sam 15 3 and 5 god says he will punish amalakites for what happened in Egypt long before [fathers]. Yet they continued in fathers sin judges 3.12 6 3-5,33 7.12 10.12 etc 1 sam 30 1 sam 15.18 show they are presently wicked.


A key to understanding this business is a concept called vicarious punishment that is found in the law codes of the ANE. Greenberg [Chr.SPPS, 295] offers these examples:

A creditor who has maltreated the distrained sin of his debtor that he dies, must lose his own son. If a man struck the pregnant daughter of another so that she miscarried and died, his own daughter must be put to death. A seducer must deliver his wife to the seduced girl's father for prostitution. In another class are penalties which involve the substitution of a dependent for the offerer -- the Hittite laws compelling a slayer to deliver so many persons to the kinsmen of the slain, or prescribing that a man who has pushed another into a fire must give over his son...Now it is precisely this kind of punishment, which was prescribed in every law code in the Near East, that Deut. 24:16 is intended to forbid. The verse is not a universal motto, but a time-specific law intended as a direct counter to the practices listed above. "The proper understanding of this requires...that it be recognized as a judicial provision, not a theological dictum." [Chr.SPPS, 296, 298]
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/paydaddy.html




Punished for praying to another god?


Your claim is false. First a rejection of god is yes a sin. However they were not punished for not following god. Many non believers were within isreal for thousands of years and lived peacefully. What god did punish was moral behavior. This praying to another god is not a modern liberal tolerance thing, but a following of the Canaanites religions and practices in the land that belongs to god, Israel. If you want to know what that was see here

You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
-Deuteronomy 12.31
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan


God did the same thing to his people when they later followed the practices of the Canaanites.


4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
-Deuteronomy 9:4

“The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God."’"
-Leviticus 18:1-30


For mankind to try and turn the sinners into the victims, and turn the judge of the world into a sinner, is an act of an evil heart.

“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
-Isiah 5.20

“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
-Job 40.8



But even if we accept your false scenario god punishing someone for following another god does not contradict unconditional love. “But god demonstrated his love for us that while we were sinners Christ died for us” Romans 5.8. Punishment is not based on lack of love, in fact we punish and correct because we love.

because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
hebrews 12.6

because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in
proverbs 3.12



Go visit people in jail and ask them if they had a loving father who cared for them enough to discipline them. I think you already know the answer. God often used punishments towards isreal to lead them back to him, because he loves them.

“Judgment is not opposed to Gods love and compassion, but rather springs from the character of a loving, caring god”
-Matthew Flannagan and paul Copan Did God really Command genocide


this comes out in my thread on the Canaanites and the conquest.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

PFH isn't a liberal claiming these things. He's a scholar in theology who's studied the texts and history constituting the Bible. He knows rather more about these things than you. And there shouldn't be any distinction between liberals and conservative theologians. There are scholars who apply proper rigour to their study of historical evidence, and there are frauds.

---

I agree, this is how it should be, but the human heart makes this impossible. This can very easily be demonstrated when i do the thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Koran is a different book containing tenets of a different religion, I don't see why it should be in line with any other holy book.

---

Than you should not post on a thread on Islam or at least read my op. A very basic understanding of islam and Muhammuds beliefs should be required.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

As for contradictions between words and deeds, we might as well remember Christian view on crime, and then compare it with the order Jesus gave to his followers to commandeer a donkey so that he could reach Jerusalem in more comfort. Words =/= deeds :shrug:

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? really this belongs on the thread you seem excited about, claimed contradictions. But I think this a great example of how lack of knowledge leads to these kind of claims. I think you are claiming jesus stole a donkey no? or at least told the disciples to steal a donkey. Yet thew bible clearly says do not steal, see we have a clear contradiction the bible is false and we can live how we want.


Since you seem to want to bring these up on any subject that is not on contradictions, I shall stop answering them [a quick google could if your interested] so as to not take all your best ones before the thread on the subject, and it will save me time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

People can do terrible things concealing them underneath fair garments. One can remember Communist ideology of equality and world brotherhood which allowed its followers to murder others (including lots of priests) whom they saw as recalcitrant. Or, keeping to the topic of religion, the Crusades.

---

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away
Isiah 64.6


I say

Thank God for the Crusades
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...r-the-Crusades


Would love to clear up any lies our secular education has indoctrinated you with on the subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

In Ukraine priests are very often seen committing sins and even crimes they are supposed to shy away from. Like the head of the largest (and therefore the holiest) monastery in Ukraine was stopped by the police for violating traffic rules. He didn't admit his guilt, but he asked the police officer if he had been to church and said his prayers that morning. If he hadn't, he had no right to stop priest for whatever reason. Then he got into his car and drove away. The HEAD of the largest MONASTERY! THE CHIEF MONK of Ukraine, one may say! And you will tell me that the books he reads matter? :laugh4:

---

The bible does say [looking for the passage] that the sins of those who follow god will show a bad example and lead people from him. But Really, your objection is a priest and a traffic ticket? I see no sin their, I would also like to see the evidence of the claim, just because i am interested. Our government sins ans makes unjust laws all the time. I am not a big fan of mans laws rather gods laws.

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...edience-to-God


Tell me where the book he reads says anything of traffic tickets? However I am saying what they read and believe effects what they do. You were arguing against it. So I am glad we agree.




However to maybe help you understand what I am saying about Christians as sinners and not able to follow gods law [the whole reason of the gospel] is as fallen men we try but cannot reach sinlessness, ever.


5 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7 15-25

Gilrandir

Because i am not sure you understand what Christianity is about i think i have to share the gospel with you. The bible is about man as fallen since Adam and eve are sinners and separated from god. We can never be perfect and will continue in our sin to some degree as fallen mankind. We are not going to haven because we are good, but because he [Jesus] is good.



The Gospel

The solution to death and suffering is why Jesus was sent as a perfect sinless sacrifice to cover the sins of man, by putting there faith in him. It is the only way for a perfect, sinless, all loving God, to save a sinful people and remain just. Picture God as a judge [he is] and he is a all loving and forgiving judge, but also a perfect holy judge [Ex 34 6-7]. If God is just, loving and forgiving, and truly hates sin [as a all loving just god would] than he cannot allow any sin to go unpunished he must judge all sin or he is not all just or a fair judge. Since all mankind is sinful.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
-Romans 3.23

How can we make up for our own sin? how could we not face punishment? and separation from god. That is when an all loving God came into history, and his creation, and died as a willing sacrifice to take the just punishment we deserved on himself. So he can spend an eternity with his creation whom he loves and still be all just.

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
-Isiah 53 5-6

24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
-1 peter 2. 24

So we are justified freely and eternal life is a gift from God given to all mankind [Romans 3 9-11 6.23]. So all we need to do is accept the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and we are cleansed of our sin and forgiven by god. God does not one person to be sent to hell.

The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance
-2Pet. 3.9

He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"
-1Tim. 2.4

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?
-Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11


of course there will be many who are turning away from God that will see this as foolishness

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
-1 Corinthians 1.18

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him
-1 Corinthians 2 .14

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
-psalm 14.1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by total relism

I am aware but would rather not look it up on wiki but the bible. I can see what you are saying now but i am not sure you grasp unconditional love. I love my children unconditionally, yet that does not mean i punish them. Moses was held in high regard as much as any human by god in his life and after and is in haven with the lord [see matt 17]. Are you suggesting that this does not include moses? “But god demonstrated his love for us that while we were sinners Christ died for us” Romans 5.8. Punishment is not based on lack of love, in fact we punish and correct because we love.

because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
hebrews 12.6

because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in
proverbs 3.12



Go visit people in jail and ask them if they had a loving father who cared for them enough to discipline them. I think you already know the answer.

---

Does an unconditionally loving father believe in group punishment? Ie. if child A steps out of line, the whole lot gets punished.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

I agree, this is how it should be, but the human heart makes this impossible. This can very easily be demonstrated when i do the thread.

---

Why is it impossible when PFH has already demonstrated it? How can we take you seriously when your arguments have already been refuted by people who know their stuff? Has there been new evidence brought into the discussion? Has the bible been updated with additional chapters?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Yes I showed the bible portrays a god who loves unconditionally, can you refute this?

---

An eye-opener for you: ANY love is unconditional. When one starts saying "I will love you if you..." it stops being love and becomes blackmailing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

The problem we have is when people want to "interpret" the bible in their own way.

The problem is the human heart wants to make an idol and twist god into what they want. You want to make it contradict itself [even if shown it does not] so you can than say this cant be from god [good because i dont like what it says] so i can reject it.

---

You sound like you are NOT one of the humans who try to interpret the Bible. Another eye-opener: ALL who read the Bible try to interpret it. I don't see why my interpretation is worse or less correct than yours. After all, the only one who can support or refute my claims is God himself (or is it herself? when you decide which it is, let me know). Until he does it I will form my own judgement using his gift - the brain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

That really means make the bible say whatever liberals and secularist tell them it says, witch is what they want it to say rather than what it says. I dont blame you, i wish i could do the same with the federal tax code.

---

So you wish to turn Bible into a code of laws? You would rejoice to see someone stoned for adultery and animal sacrifices? Way to go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

As i have said before i always make threads on various objections and people say they dont believe for some other reason [as you always bring up contradictions] I will make a thread specific for contradictions and on that thread you can bring up any claimed you wish and i will respond. I will even pm you before i put it up so you can be the first.

---

No way. It is YOU who wish to talk about the perfectness of Bible. I put in my spoke only when I see it fail. ANd I can't be the first. The first was Adam, if you remember.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

This is another reason why i am not convinced you have read the bible. A few ways to correct your post. First as we have been through this before god does not punish the next generation for the sins of the father. It is only when you take the human commentary of chapters and verses and try and make an entire theology out of it rather than the text witch is gods word, that you can create a fake theology that says god punishes the next generation for the sins of the father.

---

:laugh4: I have twice quoted the same verse which promises to punish the offspring of a perpetrator. Is Deuteronomy not a part of Bible any more? And it is you who choose to drag in Alice Cooper and other guys to prove your point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Deut. 24:16

---

Yes, but Deut. 5:9 says about "visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children down to the fourth generation".

I read this in the following way: if you sinned your offspring shall not be killed (24:16), yet they will somehow suffer (5:9). That's what I call God's mercy (and justice) - not killing but undermining health and making life a wreck.

Wait, one more word from God:

Leviticus

27 “But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, 28 then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

So it means you will eat them alive? Or you will kill them and cook them and eat them? Either way, children suffer for their fathers' sins. Mercy of God is boundless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Your claim is false. First a rejection of god is yes a sin. However they were not punished for not following god. Many non believers were within isreal for thousands of years and lived peacefully. What god did punish was moral behavior. This praying to another god is not a modern liberal tolerance thing, but a following of the Canaanites religions and practices in the land that belongs to god, Israel. If you want to know what that was see here

You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates.

---

This is what YOU claim. Now let's see what God said:

Deuteronomy 32:16 They made Him jealous with strange gods;
Deuteronomy 5:9
'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.

Any word about moral/immoral behavior? Or is praying to another God immoral by default?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
-Deuteronomy 12.31

---

:shocked2::shocked2: What a terrible thing - human sacrifices! Animal sacrifices is what God loves:

Leviticus

3 When the high priest sins, he makes everyone else guilty too. And so, he must sacrifice a young bull that has nothing wrong with it. 4 The priest will lead the bull to the entrance of the sacred tent, lay his hand on its head, and kill it there. 5 He will take a bowl of the blood inside the tent, 6 dip a finger in the blood, and sprinkle some of it seven times toward the sacred chest behind the curtain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

I think you are claiming jesus stole a donkey no? or at least told the disciples to steal a donkey.

---

It is not I who claims it. It is what I read in Bible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Yet thew bible clearly says do not steal, see we have a clear contradiction the bible is false and we can live how we want.

---

No. As Frodo put it: 'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'
The same with Bible. Now it will give you tooth for tooth advice and then will speak about the other cheek. So the best way is to abide by universal moral principles, no matter what Bible (or any other holy book) says.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Since you seem to want to bring these up on any subject that is not on contradictions, I shall stop answering them [a quick google could if your interested] so as to not take all your best ones before the thread on the subject, and it will save me all of us time.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

I say

Thank God for the Crusades
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...r-the-Crusades

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_...1099)#Massacre

Atrocities committed against the inhabitants of cities taken by storm after a siege were normal in ancient and medieval warfare. The Crusaders had already done so at Antioch, and Fatimids had done so themselves at Taormina, at Rometta, and at Tyre. However, the massacre of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may have exceeded even these standards.[13][14][15] Historian Michael Hull has suggested this was a matter of deliberate policy rather than simple bloodlust, to remove the “contamination of pagan superstition” (quoting Fulcher of Chartres) and to reform Jerusalem as a strictly Latin Christian city.[16]

Muslims
Many Muslims sought shelter in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, and the Temple Mount area generally. According to the Gesta Francorum, speaking only of the Temple Mount area, "...[our men] were killing and slaying even to the Temple of Solomon, where the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles..." According to Raymond of Aguilers, also writing solely of the Temple Mount area, " in the Temple and porch of Solomon men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins." Writing about the Temple Mount area alone Fulcher of Chartres, who was not an eyewitness to the Jerusalem siege because he had stayed with Baldwin in Edessa at the time, says: "In this temple 10,000 were killed. Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared."[17]

Jews

Jews had fought side-by-side with Muslim soldiers to defend the city, and as the Crusaders breached the outer walls, the Jews of the city retreated to their synagogue to "prepare for death".[26] According to the Muslim chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi, "The Jews assembled in their synagogue, and the Franks burned it over their heads."[27]

Are these

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

lies our secular education has indoctrinated you with on the subject?

---

And do you thank God for these things? My sincerest and abiding admiration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

I am not a big fan of mans laws rather gods laws.

---

So you would like to see sins made into crimes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Tell me where the book he reads says anything of traffic tickets?

---

:laugh4: So if God never said anything about traffic rules, one may speed, drive drunk and run down pedestrians?

What I wanted to show by the example is that people who are supposed to be the holiest ones in Orthodox world openly break the laws and disobey authorities. And one more thing: God seems unable to get his immediate subordinates/employees to behave civilly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

However I am saying what they read and believe effects what they do.

---

Evidently, the said priest read the book but doesn't very much believe what it preaches. Or he follows Jesus in matters of transportation means?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Gilrandir

Because i am not sure you understand what Christianity is about i think i have to share the gospel with you. The bible is about man as fallen since Adam and eve are sinners and separated from god. We can never be perfect and will continue in our sin to some degree as fallen mankind. We are not going to haven because we are good, but because he [Jesus] is good.

The Gospel .....

---

You have left out a whole bunch of events between Adam and the Gospel. Yet I thank you. I wouldn't like you to post the whole of what lies between.

Gilrandir

This will be my last post on this subject for a few reasons.

1] people say i have been to active lately on the forum so i want to take the time as it is free to finish reading some books on my next subject i will be posting.

2] soccer. Soccer season in vermont has hit high gear and my two boys are very busy at it. and that means so am i. love it.

3] This thread is on Islam witch you have shown you do not have basic knowledge of, yet i am not sure if any of your post are relevant to islam.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

An eye-opener for you: ANY love is unconditional. When one starts saying "I will love you if you..." it stops being love and becomes blackmailing.



You sound like you are NOT one of the humans who try to interpret the Bible. Another eye-opener: ALL who read the Bible try to interpret it. I don't see why my interpretation is worse or less correct than yours. After all, the only one who can support or refute my claims is God himself (or is it herself? when you decide which it is, let me know). Until he does it I will form my own judgement using his gift - the brain.



So you wish to turn Bible into a code of laws? You would rejoice to see someone stoned for adultery and animal sacrifices? Way to go.




No way. It is YOU who wish to talk about the perfectness of Bible. I put in my spoke only when I see it fail. ANd I can't be the first. The first was Adam, if you remember.



:laugh4: I have twice quoted the same verse which promises to punish the offspring of a perpetrator. Is Deuteronomy not a part of Bible any more? And it is you who choose to drag in Alice Cooper and other guys to prove your point.



Yes, but Deut. 5:9 says about "visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children down to the fourth generation".

I read this in the following way: if you sinned your offspring shall not be killed (24:16), yet they will somehow suffer (5:9). That's what I call God's mercy (and justice) - not killing but undermining health and making life a wreck.

Wait, one more word from God:

Leviticus

27 “But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, 28 then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

So it means you will eat them alive? Or you will kill them and cook them and eat them? Either way, children suffer for their fathers' sins. Mercy of God is boundless.



This is what YOU claim. Now let's see what God said:

Deuteronomy 32:16 They made Him jealous with strange gods;
Deuteronomy 5:9
'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.

Any word about moral/immoral behavior? Or is praying to another God immoral by default?



:shocked2::shocked2: What a terrible thing - human sacrifices! Animal sacrifices is what God loves:

Leviticus

3 When the high priest sins, he makes everyone else guilty too. And so, he must sacrifice a young bull that has nothing wrong with it. 4 The priest will lead the bull to the entrance of the sacred tent, lay his hand on its head, and kill it there. 5 He will take a bowl of the blood inside the tent, 6 dip a finger in the blood, and sprinkle some of it seven times toward the sacred chest behind the curtain.





It is not I who claims it. It is what I read in Bible.



No. As Frodo put it: 'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'
The same with Bible. Now it will give you tooth for tooth advice and then will speak about the other cheek. So the best way is to abide by universal moral principles, no matter what Bible (or any other holy book) says.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_...1099)#Massacre

Atrocities committed against the inhabitants of cities taken by storm after a siege were normal in ancient and medieval warfare. The Crusaders had already done so at Antioch, and Fatimids had done so themselves at Taormina, at Rometta, and at Tyre. However, the massacre of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may have exceeded even these standards.[13][14][15] Historian Michael Hull has suggested this was a matter of deliberate policy rather than simple bloodlust, to remove the “contamination of pagan superstition” (quoting Fulcher of Chartres) and to reform Jerusalem as a strictly Latin Christian city.[16]

Muslims
Many Muslims sought shelter in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, and the Temple Mount area generally. According to the Gesta Francorum, speaking only of the Temple Mount area, "...[our men] were killing and slaying even to the Temple of Solomon, where the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles..." According to Raymond of Aguilers, also writing solely of the Temple Mount area, " in the Temple and porch of Solomon men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins." Writing about the Temple Mount area alone Fulcher of Chartres, who was not an eyewitness to the Jerusalem siege because he had stayed with Baldwin in Edessa at the time, says: "In this temple 10,000 were killed. Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared."[17]

Jews

Jews had fought side-by-side with Muslim soldiers to defend the city, and as the Crusaders breached the outer walls, the Jews of the city retreated to their synagogue to "prepare for death".[26] According to the Muslim chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi, "The Jews assembled in their synagogue, and the Franks burned it over their heads."[27]

Are these

And do you thank God for these things? My sincerest and abiding admiration.



So you would like to see sins made into crimes?



:laugh4: So if God never said anything about traffic rules, one may speed, drive drunk and run down pedestrians?

What I wanted to show by the example is that people who are supposed to be the holiest ones in Orthodox world openly break the laws and disobey authorities. And one more thing: God seems unable to get his immediate subordinates/employees to behave civilly.



Evidently, the said priest read the book but doesn't very much believe what it preaches. Or he follows Jesus in matters of transportation means?




You have left out a whole bunch of events between Adam and the Gospel. Yet I thank you. I wouldn't like you to post the whole of what lies between.

---

This response will be fast to save time.



first response. Agreed fully, just my point. Allah's love is conditional.




Relativism [inteprit how i like] does me no good neither would it on the federal tax code. I suggest you send in your taxes and say you interpreted it as they had to pay you instead of you them, see how that goes. We are only suppose to interprit and relativism when it comes to things liberals dont like, such as the bible. The bible can clarify any issue but man often chooses to ignore it or only listen to what they like.




I cant help but think you are not hearing and just want to argue my friend. I said try your relativistic, interpret how i want stance with the federal tax code. Than see where liberalism gets you.


Gods bible and your are very different. Your bible as i pointed out is man made numbers verses and chapters. Mine is the written text reveled from god. that is why you see contradictions and make one verse fight another instead of it being read in its entirely to allow it to say more on a subject than your one man made bible verse/number/ human commentary. That is why you see Deut. 5:9 and Deut. 24:16 as contradictory rather than allow the bible to clarify and give you its meaning. Thus your conclusion reached is

"That's what I call God's mercy (and justice) - not killing but undermining health and making life a wreck."

unbiblical out of context and not surprising. But as I said gods bible is his reveled word in its entirely from gen 1.1 to the end of revelations. Therefore i read it as a whole and allow more than your man made verse size bible. and as i pointed out to you, gods word tells us that god will punish those in the promise land who continue in the sins of the fathers, and that none will be punished for the sins of their fathers. But you have shown you have no interest in gods bible. That is why i have said your words and beliefs flow from a sinful heart that seeks to make an idol [god in your image, how you want to "interpret" it] so you can make a contradictory or evil god that you can reject easily. You can than fill your hearts desire as you wish.




Leviticus passage- Once more we have two bibles. I do not care to defend your idol of a man made numbering passage min out of context bible. but i do care for gods reveled word in its entirety. so we look to 2 kings 6 25-29.


There was a great famine in the city; the siege lasted so long that a donkey’s head sold for eighty shekels[a] of silver, and a quarter of a cab[b] of seed pods[c] for five shekels.[d]

26 As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried to him, “Help me, my lord the king!”

27 The king replied, “If the Lord does not help you, where can I get help for you? From the threshing floor? From the winepress?” 28 Then he asked her, “What’s the matter?”

She answered, “This woman said to me, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him today, and tomorrow we’ll eat my son.’ 29 So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him,’ but she had hidden him.”


This is a horrible account of how bad it got for Israel. as god said if they follow in the sins of their fathers [worshiping Canaanite gods child sacrifice etc] he would no longer continue protecting them. Anyone who has read the bible or has minimal knowledge would know the ot cycle that is often repeated. I wish not to tell you because you have no interest in gods word but your man made idol. you can keep it, i would reject it as well.




Once more we have two bibles, your consist of Deuteronomy 32:16 Deuteronomy 5:9 and a false conclusion. Mine is god reveled word. You say their is no mention of moral behavior connected with this false worship just a jealous god. thus you have created your idol to reject as an evil jealous god based on selected verses used to create this idol. Mine is gods entire word reveled to man in its context and in full. If you wish to know about what god has to say on the subject see here

Did God Command Genocide During the Conquest of Canaan?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan


of course we both know you have no interest at all.






Yes god sees human sacrifice as bad, you seem surprised. your idol not have that verse? but once more two bibles. you say god loves animal sacrifice because your bible is selected verses you like to make a idol out of. Mine is gods whole word starting in genesis. So i also see the bible as presenting the sacrifice as atonement and foreshadowing of Jesus death

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

and i know death is the enemy of god.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1 Corinthians 15 . 26


I also read the bible in whole where it says


But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations;
Isiah 66.3

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings
hosea 6.6

I will praise God’s name in song
and glorify him with thanksgiving.
31 This will please the LORD more than an ox,
more than a bull with its horns and hooves
psalm 69 30-31

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.
Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.

Isiah 1.11,13,14

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened[c]—
burnt offerings and sin offerings[d] you did not require.
7 Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.[e]
8 I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.
Psalm 40 6-8

So Samuel said:
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
1 Samuel 15.22


The Lord detests the sacrifice of the wicked,
but the prayer of the upright pleases him
proverbs 15.8






once more your bible is not gods word, lets not mistake that you have shown your bible an idol over and over. where you create a "yes and no" is from your idol as shown. In fact your claim of tooth for tooth and turn the other cheek is a perfect example of an idol since you claim they contradict. the whole bible solves that for you. I have done so on another thread [in the history section] but dont want to show all your idols false on a thread not dedicated to contradictions. i would rather than.





Right. That is why i did the thread to help people who use wiki and have no critical thinking skills. T ON THE CRUSADE THREAD PLEASE> SORRY for caps>



thank god for lies in liberal government schools? no thanks. You do not know me sir.






if the title does not give it away i am not sure what would, please read it if still needed.

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...edience-to-God

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

3] This thread is on Islam witch you have shown you do not have basic knowledge of, yet i am not sure if any of your post are relevant to islam.

---

While I don't deny I have a very cursory knowledge of Islam, I do deny the other statements of yours:
1) this thread is NOT on Islam. It aims to COMPARE Islam and Christianity.
2) my posts chip in only when Christianity is concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

I cant help but think you are not hearing and just want to argue my friend.

---

Strange to say, I have a similar impression. Of your position.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Gods bible and your are very different. Your bible as i pointed out is man made numbers verses and chapters. Mine is the written text reveled from god.

---

That's an eye-opener for me. I have never thought that the books that look the same, consisit of the same chapters and have the same title can be different. Perhaps, it is what we see in them is different. Which brings us back to my initial premise: it is useless to argue about Bible since it contains completely opposite kinds of thoughts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

that is why you see contradictions and make one verse fight another instead of it being read in its entirely to allow it to say more on a subject than your one man made bible verse/number/ human commentary. That is why you see Deut. 5:9 and Deut. 24:16 as contradictory rather than allow the bible to clarify and give you its meaning.

---

It seems that it is YOU who is eager to give me YOUR interpretation of the Bible, and what I see in the Bible is different. I saw two quotes which contradict each other. You choose to say that one of them overrules the other thus making the overruled one seem superfluous. I choose to see both. Otherwise God's word would seem to contain useless information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

But you have shown you have no interest in gods bible.

---

Why are you so sure that YOUR Bible is God's Bible and mine is an erroneous one? What if it's the other way around?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

That is why i have said your words and beliefs flow from a sinful heart that seeks to make an idol [god in your image, how you want to "interpret" it] so you can make a contradictory or evil god that you can reject easily. You can than fill your hearts desire as you wish.

---

So all your lengthy posts were in vain and my sinful heart will never know the right word?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

Yes god sees human sacrifice as bad, you seem surprised. your idol not have that verse? but once more two bibles. you say god loves animal sacrifice because your bible is selected verses you like to make a idol out of. Mine is gods whole word starting in genesis.

---

So your appoach is to say that all bad things in Bible are just slantings and exaggerations and we should ignore them having in mind the book's general purpose - to make this world better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations;
Isiah 66.3

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings
hosea 6.6

I will praise God’s name in song
and glorify him with thanksgiving.
31 This will please the LORD more than an ox,
more than a bull with its horns and hooves
psalm 69 30-31

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.
Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.

Isiah 1.11,13,14

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened[c]—
burnt offerings and sin offerings[d] you did not require.
7 Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.[e]
8 I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.
Psalm 40 6-8

So Samuel said:
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
1 Samuel 15.22


The Lord detests the sacrifice of the wicked,
but the prayer of the upright pleases him
proverbs 15.8

---

That shows an U-turn from what is said in Leviticus. If it isn't a contradiction, it is inconsistency. If what you quote here prevails over Leviticus's ones, why is Leviticus still kept as a part of HOLY scripture?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total relism

In fact your claim of tooth for tooth and turn the other cheek is a perfect example of an idol since you claim they contradict. the whole bible solves that for you.

---

It doesn't. Reveal me, oh God's herald, what shall I steer by - "tooth for tooth" or "the other cheek"?