Is the public THAT stupid?

Correct me if im wrong but Im getting more and more the impression from each TW installment that the "developers"=*cough*publishers with a wip*cough* think of the target group audience as the lowest common denominator of low IQ and even lower taste...
Excuse me for the pun but this approach reminds me the first European explorers of Africa and Polynesia that assumed that the locals were a bit better than animals and were offering them impractical but flashy objects in exchange of food and other practical and valuable things.
After the presentation of several units and the general flashy approach by SEGA/CA I wonder is the public that stupid? Should the ignorance and the darkness of FALSE imposed by the media images be preserved and nurished? God forbids that the masses actually LEARN something? And please for Christ sake dont bring "teh limitedtimebudget" excuse, the designing making up and general creation of the "egyptians" in RTW drew more resources when they could simply copy paste the Seleucids...

Hellenes

It's hellenes time again! :wink:

I think it has little to do with what CA thinks their target customers are. There are more games aimed at the same group that are more realistic and not a cartoon of reality. The problem is the vision of the Art Director and artists.

It's a games company's over riding responsibility to make money to run, so targetting the market most likely to buy their games is the sensible option.

Besides, MTW was hardly perfect, remember the 56 year bug? That annoyed the hell out of me and certainly killed the immersion people talk about, luckily they fixed it.

Give them a chance to release the thing before you crucify it.

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Originally Posted by Duke John

It's hellenes time again! :wink:

I think it has little to do with what CA thinks their target customers are. There are more games aimed at the same group that are more realistic and not a cartoon of reality. The problem is the vision of the Art Director and artists.

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Can you please mention even ONE melee game on the scale of TW tactical battles that resembles even at 10% the reality and has the same target group audience?
Cause the only thing that mass appeal strategy games have are poor Dune2 clo(w)nes like AoE, RoN etc...

Hellenes

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

Give them a chance to release the thing before you crucify it.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

It's a games company's over riding responsibility to make money to run, so targetting the market most likely to buy their games is the sensible option.

Besides, MTW was hardly perfect, remember the 56 year bug? That annoyed the hell out of me and certainly killed the immersion people talk about, luckily they fixed it.

Give them a chance to release the thing before you crucify it.

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So the public IS STUPID?
Can you tell me ONE thing:
If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?
And on the crusifiction thing being fan is one thing but being a occultists is something completely different...

Hellenes

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Originally Posted by hellenes

So the public IS STUPID?
Can you tell me ONE thing:
If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?
And on the crusifiction thing being fan is one thing but being a occultists is something completely different...

Hellenes

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It may, it may not, we will never know.

Too many people are looking for faults in this game, they aren't giving it the chance it deserves. The units may turn out shocking but you may find the gameplay to be the best in the series and an absolute gem of a game, which gets better when some modellers release accurate unit appearances to use.

As long as they LOOK atleast a bit medieval I am fine with that, I care more about how the game plays then whether its entirely accurate, I can handle knights with incorrect armour if the game is a good play and something we can mould to be more realistic.

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

It may, it may not, we will never know.

Too many people are looking for faults in this game, they aren't giving it the chance it deserves. The units may turn out shocking but you may find the gameplay to be the best in the series and an absolute gem of a game, which gets better when some modellers release accurate unit appearances to use.

As long as they LOOK atleast a bit medieval I am fine with that, I care more about how the game plays then whether its entirely accurate, I can handle knights with incorrect armour if the game is a good play and something we can mould to be more realistic.

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Hes right. Although realism helps, the reason people have lost so much interest in RTW is not because of the horribly inaccurate units and factions. People are very much stupid. How many people do you think know anything about ancient civilization? When 14% of americans cannot even point out their own country on a world map (an actual statistic and im sure it applies to all countries) how do you expect them to know that a hastati had a slightly more rounded shield than whats in the game? People are very much stupid. But im getting off topic. The reason RTW died off like it did was because of the crappy gameplay. The AI was complete shit. I could play with my eyes closed and beat the AI on the hardest difficulty settings. For this reason alone the game failed miserably. Yes historical accuracy helps but when CA says that their main focus is on gameplay then i expect a game worth playing.

I myself could care less about historical accuracy. Yes i would prefer it. But id rather have a game that i can actual play more than twice.

With that said. At the moment, I do plan to buy MTW2. But there is a very real possibility that MTW2 will be the last TW game i buy if it does not significantly improve. I say this as a loyal fan who bought STW the day it came out however many years ago.

Anybody here, nomatter how idealistic in theory, would do exactly the same thing as anyone at CA in the same situation. And only arguing about the graphics is playing to the idea that those are the chief concern among consumers. As NagatsukaShumi said, as long as they look medieval, it's fine. Modding graphics is always an option. You can't possibly expect an intricately detailed reproduction of historical authenticity in a vanilla game. No matter what screenshots come out, there are tons of people picking it apart to unrealistic standards, complaining about the tiniest things. Shield is too small, spear is too thin, animation leaves body exposed. As far as the game company goes, there have to be lines drawn as far as how much they can put into all the aspects of such an immense game. Unless the game is represented as being a 100% authentic, historically accurate one by the ones releasing it, it shouldn't be held to those standards.

Also, lets not forget NO Total War has been 100% accurate, its a game BASED on history.

Gameplay is the actual thing to worry about, and we can't do that UNTIL we PLAY the game.

All these anti-MTWII threads are pointless.

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

Also, lets not forget NO Total War has been 100% accurate, its a game BASED on history.

Gameplay is the actual thing to worry about, and we can't do that UNTIL we PLAY the game.

All these anti-MTWII threads are pointless.

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For sure. Unfortunately, it's an undeniable human instinct to criticize and it's terribly easy to do so from afar. Nothing is perfect and it's not hard to point out things that make it so.

I think some people here are being a bit harsh on RTW. OK, the AI left a lot to be desired, and it could have been a lot more historically accurate, but if you all hate the TW series so much, why are you here anyway? It was the brilliant gameplay of the TW series that led to these thriving TW communities. They created a game engine with huge potential, that modders such as those at EB and RTR and god knows how many mods have taken advantage of, giving us one of the most enjoyable PC games of all time.

And don't judge a game just because of a few clips of units. MTW had stunning graphics, and it should have a brilliant gameplay system like RTW. Even if it is a bit of a fantasy game to begin with, modders can build upon that, to give us fantastic gameplaying time like with EB. The mods are what make these forums what they are in the first place.

I just think people should give M2TW a chance. If it wasn't for CA, we wouldn't all be here in the first place, thinking up mods and talking about all our gameplay experiences.

1st Historical Accuracy =/= Gameplay
EB has proved it.
2nd I asked a question and still await an answer:
"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"
3rd I dont care if they make the game accurate or not, Im not bashing their game and Im well aware that they have the monopoly of strategic tactical games amongst the idiotic darkness of basebuilding/resourcecollecting clickfest toys...Im just wondering if the mass media including the gaming industry really thinks of the target groupd customer as ignorant morons...

Hellenes

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Originally Posted by hellenes

1st Historical Accuracy =/= Gameplay
EB has proved it.
2nd I asked a question and still await an answer:
"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"
3rd I dont care if they make the game accurate or not, Im not bashing their game and Im well aware that they have the monopoly of strategic tactical games amongst the idiotic darkness of basebuilding/resourcecollecting clickfest toys...Im just wondering if the mass media including the gaming industry really thinks of the target groupd customer as ignorant morons...

Hellenes

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What they know is that people buy these games, if they didn't, they'd change their ways.

It might, however, you've got to understand that this is a game based on history, they make units that look "cool" to the majority.

My concern is not so much with historical accuracy (we are, after all, making our own history), as it might not be as much fun for some factions.

I have been playing since S:TW, and have played M:TW VI and the XL mod extensively. The problem that I have with R:TW that has prevented me from buying it, and makes me anxious about M:TW2 is the fact that several persistent bugs are still in R:TW that CA has said they will not address!
This strikes me as a strange stance, as I am somewhat used to companies addressing problems with their product sooner or later, since it has an impact on future sales. I have admired companies that have not "rushed out" a product that was not finished, and have doggedly chased down bugs that do exist. Weak AI is somewhat forgivable, bugs are not.

While complaining about the gameplay of MTW2 is pretty moot, since none of us have played it, I still find it perfectly reasonable to argue (or, as in my case, whine uncontrolably) about its visual aspects, since the eye candy will obviously be a very major selling point, and since we've got quite a few screenshots and previews to talk about...

"Im just wondering if the mass media including the gaming industry really thinks of the target groupd customer as ignorant morons..."

People aren't morons just because they are not afficianados of a particular area of history. A fairer question would be "does the games industry think the target consumer is not an expert on medieval warfare"- and obviously it doesn't for the very good reason that most people aren't.

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Originally Posted by Woad Warrior

I think some people here are being a bit harsh on RTW. OK, the AI left a lot to be desired, and it could have been a lot more historically accurate, but if you all hate the TW series so much, why are you here anyway?

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Because we want more of Shogun and Medieval.

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...MTW had stunning graphics, and it should have a brilliant gameplay system like RTW.

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You surely mean the other way around.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

So the public IS STUPID?

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Not all of it, but the majority. And numbers speak for themselves.

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

Also, lets not forget NO Total War has been 100% accurate, its a game BASED on history.

Gameplay is the actual thing to worry about, and we can't do that UNTIL we PLAY the game.

All these anti-MTWII threads are pointless.

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Indeed. Although pointless complaining threads (little will be changed according to our protests, I fear, and we will only drive CA deeper into their trenches) help us venting. Why? Because of Great Expectations.

But then again, I don’t care about anything else, give me a decent fundament to mod the game and I’m happy.

Yes in my post I meant M2TW has stunning graphics.

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

And only arguing about the graphics is playing to the idea that those are the chief concern among consumers.

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Yes, but since we're getting little else but screenshots to talk about, what else can we discuss but the graphics? Be realistic, please.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

Is the public THAT stupid?

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I can answer this in two ways - the short way, and the big long explanation way. I'm going to answer the short way.

Short way - yes. The general public are all morons who generally think the Romans built the pyramids and that anyone who wasn't Roman was a vile barbarian who commited incest with his Mother.

So therefore, they will only buy something they recognise. After all, they want to be buying a game that looks just like all the movies they've seen of Medieval times, not a historic representation.

If it's historic, then it would just look too boring. And *gasp!* they would actually learn something, that just won't do.

No, instead, the public wants all soldiers to be like fighters out of Mortal Kombat, doing combo moves and with the ability to fly through the air.

And ninja's. The public want ninja's, so don't forget the ninja's CA!

Flying ninja's obviously. With elephants mounted on their backs. And these elephants have trebuchets mounted on their backs. Flying-ninja-elephant-trebuchets. With eye lasers if you buy the upgrade in the Turn of our Lord, 213.

Looking back, that wasn't really a short explanation...

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

"Im just wondering if the mass media including the gaming industry really thinks of the target groupd customer as ignorant morons..."

People aren't morons just because they are not afficianados of a particular area of history. A fairer question would be "does the games industry think the target consumer is not an expert on medieval warfare"- and obviously it doesn't for the very good reason that most people aren't.

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"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"

If the game will sell as good then what is the reason for making up designing and allocating resources to the "Egyptian" faction?
If the game will not sell why will that happen?

Hellenes

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Originally Posted by hellenes

"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"

If the game will sell as good then what is the reason for making up designing and allocating resources to the "Egyptian" faction?
If the game will not sell why will that happen?

Hellenes

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I will answer again, it MAY, it MAY NOT. You'll never know.

The Egyptian faction was there because the MAJORITY of people think of Egypt in the way its depicted, not as the Ptolemy's!

We'll see how MTW2 does, the graphics are more gritty and EB like. Accurate or not.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

"If Rome Total War was released and it had instead of its cartoony units, units from Europa Barbarorum and Im talking now PURE VISUAL, not the native names, not the scripts JUST the LOOK.
Would it NOT sell as good?"

If the game will sell as good then what is the reason for making up designing and allocating resources to the "Egyptian" faction?
If the game will not sell why will that happen?

Hellenes

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I think you have a point, however it is unfortunately entirely muted by the way you present it. If I was a game designer I wouldn't even read a thread which has a title that contains the word stupid. By using words like "stupid" and "moron" you made sure that your posts cannot have the slightest effect on CA because such posts are principially filtered out as worthless. And rightfully so!

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

I think you have a point, however it is unfortunately entirely muted by the way you present it. If I was a game designer I wouldn't even read a thread which has a title that contains the word stupid. By using words like "stupid" and "moron" you made sure that your posts cannot have the slightest effect on CA because such posts are principially filtered out as worthless. And rightfully so!

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So the proposal of the EB team (which I am NOT part of) towards CA, EB which has historians and archeologists amongst its ranks, was worded in a way that insulted CA?
If youre unaware EB has proposed to CA to offer all the backround information needed to depict the barbarian factions in a more immersive and rich way far before RTW was released.
CA rejected that offer and we all know the result in RTW's shallow and boring barbarian factions.
BTW IMO designers and developers have very few things to say about what gets in the game, its the marketing department's job. Of course no CA emploee will ever say anything like that.

Hellenes

According to CA they never got an offer from the EB team.

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Originally Posted by TB666

According to CA they never got an offer from the EB team.

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I didnt know that the EB team is pretty confident about the fact, otherwise their mod wouldnt exist now...
Do you have the link with the denial?

Hellenes

Searching for it.
Unfortunately the search function here is kinda bad so it will take a while.

Edit: found it https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...784#post859784

That statement by Captain Fishpants just goes to show that the offer from the EB team didn't get very far within CA.

I read somewhere that there are legal reasons why they can't just incorporate stuff from modders, even with the modders' permission.