Some joyous tidings from Israel

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

So let me get this right, if britian manages to invade a country and take it over successfully today, then tommorrow the residents have no more valid claims on the lands because you now we'd have to go through 1000's of years of history giving everyone thier land back.... Great!...

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Griz:

Despite some opposition to the notion, throughout the majority of recorded history, "by right of conquest" has been viewed as a legitimate means of determining national ownership of a particular piece of real estate. It is only in very recent human history that conquest has been broadly repudiated (at least officially) as a means of determining ownership of territory. The conqueror's claim to ownership were deemed voided if it were conquered by someone else or a successful rebellion was staged.

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

The thing with killing high Hamas officials is that they usually fill up the spot after the assassination. Hence you get absolutely nowhere because there's always someone to fill the position, possibly more fanatic and cunning than his predecessor. And you can't kill them all anyway, since Irael will never use it's nuclear weapon in this struggle.

:balloon2:

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Works for Iraq, despite the ideological wardrums it's a better place then it ever was. And I couldn't give a :daisy: anyway, and that doesn't matter anyway, if we didn't give a :daisy: somebody else wouldn't care, rubbing them up at the wrong places. And Israel will use it's nuclair weapon when it feels it has to, make no mistake this is the situation this is every bit as bad as the cold war this can turn very very badly and it probably will.

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it funny that you call me an idiot over this matter but in reality you are so much more clueless than you think you are.

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Really ?

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it was british land

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
You fall at the first step .

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arabs owned very little of it

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bloody hell should you have even entered the race ? you fall again , it was the Jews and Jewish agency that owned very little , depending on whose figures you use they owned between 6&8% of the land

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the brits can do whatever they want to it

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:daisy:

:daisy:

start with something simple like reading the terms of the mandate , then maybe go earlier and read the provisional mandate .

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and to say that the arab states around israel didnt rush to exterminate israel is

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
:daisy:
You remember mentioning research earlier , perhaps you might try some:dizzy2:

So the alternative history.... it just isn't true, part one;":creation cause and effect, a complete history"

It is strange that some posters who support the Israeli actions seem to be keen on Fatah. After all, they are hardly clean of blood.

Not that it matters, as Israel is neatly undermining them and strengthening their enemy, Hamas. Just as they have done every time they have tried this military destruction rather than addressing realistic negotiations.

The diplomacy championed by Mr Abbas has for years been difficult to sell to Palestinians because it has brought little or no relief from occupation or improvement in their daily lives, only the expansion of Israeli settlements. This existing frustration –which helped Hamas defeat Mr Abbas's Fatah movement in the 2006 elections – is now combined with popular anger and dismay at the carnage among fellow Palestinians in Gaza.

It has long been my position that the Palestinians should protest non-violently, in the belief that such resistance would finally invoke the consciences of those who hold power. Having taken note of the cynics, I have held to that belief in spite of mounting evidence of its naïveté.

Several instances during this campaign have caused me to question whether in fact, the Israeli forces and government have now crossed the line into considering their opponents entirely sub-human and undeserving of humanity. Not the militants, but every last person.

The ICRC has reported that their ambulances were stopped from going to the aid of the dead and wounded for several days, and the aid workers forced to walk a kilometre to find starving children next to the bodies of their parents. Though no fighting was going on (despite half-hearted Israeli PR insistence) not a finger was lifted by the military right next door to the children. Donkey carts had to be utilised to bring out the dead and wounded because the ambulances still weren't allowed through.

In another incident, Palestinian civilians were specifically ordered to stay inside a building by the IDF for their safety. The next day, this building was shelled, killing thirty or more. This was reported by B'Tselem, a highly respected Israeli human rights organisation.

Both these events are war crimes and in direct contravention of international law. The cavalier disregard of innocent people in suffering speaks of a dehumanisation of the Palestinian people in Israeli eyes.

The ICRC is very rarely pushed to criticising the activities of combatants publicly and is regarded as completely neutral by governments around the world, so the chants of bias being readied fail.

There is no excuse for these acts, and Israel, no doubt will have another series of government enquiries that will condemn their actions - and get ignored ready for the next time. Equally without doubt is that some here will excuse them as being in a war, but this is not a mediaeval totalwar computer simulation and Israel is a state with ratified treaties committing itself to international law and its observance. The saddest irony is that much of the development of international conflict law was generated by the atrocities perpetrated on their own forebears.

Once dehumanisation is in place, there is no choice but armed struggle, because one cannot "negotiate" with animals. The Palestinian terror groups have long made this mistake, treating Israelis with utter disdain, as if all are faceless imperialists. Sadly, it seems the circle is now complete - and in the hearts of the one people on God's green earth that should know better.

:shame:

The diplomacy championed by Mr Abbas has for years been difficult to sell to Palestinians because it has brought little or no relief from occupation or improvement in their daily lives, only the expansion of Israeli settlements.

Which is why abandoning terrorism is fairly pointless for the palestinians, they come off even worse when both sides turn to violence, but at least they get to cut the enemy and get a leg blown off in return, rather than sitting there and being bled whilst doing nothing...

Out of interest why if Fatah and mr Abbas are something better do the israelis continue to do exactly as they please ? is it because terrorism was just an excuse for the land and resource grabbing israel has practiced since its exsistence...

Edit: getting round to the rest of the points shortly, just needed to say this one now...

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Both these events are war crimes and in direct contravention of international law. The cavalier disregard of innocent people in suffering speaks of a dehumanisation of the Palestinian people in Israeli eyes.

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this is hardly surprising to me....I have been to Israel twice on work, and both times I stayed there for about a month's time.
I work in the IT business and the sort of things I heard about the Palestinians from the Israelis I was working with led me to believe that they simply didn´t have any regard for them as human beings, and these were highly educated people I was working with.
The kind of things I was told, poorly disguised in the jokes I would hear at lunch time, could only be characterized as racism in any other country I have ever been in.

It sounds like the Israelis have never heard of nor adopted the concept of ROE (Rules Of Engagement). If the Israelis did have Rules Of Engagement, they might have been ignored or they might have been so simplistic that anything goes. I'm guessing it is the latter based upon incidents such as the ones posted by Banquo's Ghost.

Do Israeli Rules Of Engagement exist or not?
Are civilians fair targets for Israeli soldiers or not?

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Originally Posted by Guildenstern

It sounds like the Israelis have never heard of nor adopted the concept of ROE (Rules Of Engagement). If the Israelis did have Rules Of Engagement, they might have been ignored or they might have been so simplistic that anything goes. I'm guessing it is the latter based upon incidents such as the ones posted by Banquo's Ghost.

Do Israeli Rules Of Engagement exist or not?
Are civilians fair targets for Israeli soldiers or not?

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no, there definitly are RoE for the IDF, but they are much more lenient than the american one.
and no, the IDF does not consider civilians, who are taking no part in the conflict in any way, as fair game.
ask someone in the IDF. they will say EXACTLY what i just said about the IDF RoE.

It is strange that some posters who support the Israeli actions seem to be keen on Fatah. After all, they are hardly clean of blood.

Sure but even when you don't have any bad intentions you sometimes have to make a choice. If you really want a diplomatic solution, why allow what prevents exactly that from happening. It's a pretty damn big comprosise to even make terms with Fatah, who's not trying.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

this is hardly surprising to me....I have been to Israel twice on work, and both times I stayed there for about a month's time.
I work in the IT business and the sort of things I heard about the Palestinians from the Israelis I was working with led me to believe that they simply didn´t have any regard for them as human beings, and these were highly educated people I was working with.
The kind of things I was told, poorly disguised in the jokes I would hear at lunch time, could only be characterized as racism in any other country I have ever been in.

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this is also hardly surprising. most of the suicide bombers have been Palestinians, so its only human nature to dehumanize a people that blow themselves up, regadless of even if most of the people dont blow themselves up. i am friends with an anthropologist who is currently studying this.
i mean, if there was a group of people who was blowing themselves up to kill others in your country, ill bet your countrymen will dehumanize them as well.
its human nature.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

The ICRC has reported that their ambulances were stopped from going to the aid of the dead and wounded for several days, and the aid workers forced to walk a kilometre to find starving children next to the bodies of their parents. Though no fighting was going on (despite half-hearted Israeli PR insistence) not a finger was lifted by the military right next door to the children. Donkey carts had to be utilised to bring out the dead and wounded because the ambulances still weren't allowed through.

In another incident, Palestinian civilians were specifically ordered to stay inside a building by the IDF for their safety. The next day, this building was shelled, killing thirty or more. This was reported by B'Tselem, a highly respected Israeli human rights organisation.

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These incidents would be a lot easier to get outraged over, were it not for tendencies on the part of Hamas to use ambulances as troop transports and schools, hospitals and even their own mosques as weapons caches and bunkers.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

These incidents would be a lot easier to get outraged over, were it not for tendencies on the part of Hamas to use ambulances as troop transports and schools, hospitals and even their own mosques as weapons caches and bunkers.

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Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a civilised democracy.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a civilised democracy.

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Is this :daisy: taking?

Hamas are not terrorists, the belief that they are is a lie spread across the West by corporate media and general idiocy on the part of educated people. Hamas is a democratically elected movement which seeks to resist the Israeli attempts at ethnic cleansing (yes that is what it is called officially). Hamas do not wish the destruction of Israel :daisy:

Israel is a racist aparthied state which has no business calling itself civilized, from its inception its main goal has been the further conquest and destruction of the native population. The ceasfire was an Israeli sham as are all their peace deals. It is a state on par with aparthied south Africa and Saudi-Arabia and the US look like a bunch of hegemonic imperialists with its blatant support for it.

As for Seamus' right of conquest, as if mate, stop making yourself feel better about your nation being one of modern day imperialists by spouting such :daisy:. Israel is an American Empire by proxy and you know it. Without the US Israel would be a nothing, it such a shame that Obama will continue this farce called "Truth, Justice and the American Way".

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Awsome, you realise that you are talking tosh and so you descend into creating absurd diversions, now why don't we get back to the part where you said Hamas wanted to destroy Israel, shall we?

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If you can't see the point, or more likely, if you refuse to, then I may as well drop it. However, yes, let's get to the part where Hamas wanted to destroy Israel.

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Originally Posted by Preamble

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.

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Originally Posted by Article Eight

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

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Originally Posted by Article Nine

They are the fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail, homelands be retrieved and from its mosques would the voice of the mu'azen emerge declaring the establishment of the state of Islam, so that people and things would return each to their right places and Allah is our helper.

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Yes, an Islamic theocracy in the place of Israel. [sarcasm] Sounds wonderful. [/sarcasm]

And why don't we move on to peace theories, which you believe Hamas will follow?

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Originally Posted by Article Thirteen

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

...

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

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Since Tribesman didn't like my last link, he can have this one.

And if you say that Hamas has renounced or "reviewed" the Covenant, provide me a reliable link that says so, and that explains how it was "reviewed."

Why don't you go out and get a book? That is what I have done, I would advise one by a man named Khalidi.

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Why don't you go out and get a book? That is what I have done, I would advise one by a man named Khalidi.

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I have evidently not heard of this, so if I'm wrong, prove me wrong by giving me a link. :dizzy2:

No, I usually dislike the internet and have read most of my info in books, if you are simply getting all your info from the internet then that is your problem not mine. I have suggested a noted author for you to get started on.

Or you could just read that John Pilger link I put up and go from there?

If it is information, it should be available from a reliable site, such as a university website. If you cannot back up your assertions, that is not my problem.

EDIT: You could also quote and give a page reference from the book in question.

An interesting article from the Globe and Mail.

The only reason I can think that you are not willing to try for yourself, is that you are afraid of what you will find.

From John Pilger I doubt it would be hard to find.

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

The only reason I can think that you are not willing to try for yourself, is that you are afraid of what you will find.

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Or because I don't have the book you refer to. I have already attempted to Google your claims, and have turned up nothing reliable. In fact, I've turned up next to nothing at all apart from the occasional blog, which are almost always rabidly pro-Hamas in addition to the fact that they are, in fact, not reliable.

I have found some articles on Hamas dropping the specific call for the destruction of Israel, but it seems that they made the move A) for political capital and B) isn't really stopping the call for the destruction of Israel. Gazi Hamad, a Hamas candidate, said in the article that:

"Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist."

EDIT: And that article is, unfortunately, out of date. Here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/world...29777020070312

So Hamas did, at one point, drop the call for the destruction of Israel - only to assume it again a year later.

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Since Tribesman didn't like my last link, he can have this one.

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Thats better , the real floridly written piece of crap containing piles of nonsense .

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And if you say that Hamas has renounced or "reviewed" the Covenant, provide me a reliable link that says so, and that explains how it was "reviewed."

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I am sure you can find your own link to first Marzug then Yassin and then Ranissi rejecting their charter in 1994 .

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no, there definitly are RoE for the IDF, but they are much more lenient than the american one.

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What you men like declaring that there are no civilians ?

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and no, the IDF does not consider civilians, who are taking no part in the conflict in any way, as fair game.

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Is that why they have to declare that there are no civilians ?

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Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a civilised democracy.

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It is becoming much harder to believe that last part holds much truth .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Thats better , the real floridly written piece of crap containing piles of nonsense .

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You mean the original text in full of the Hamas Covenant? Yes, it is nonsense.

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I am sure you can find your own link to first Marzug then Yassin and then Ranissi rejecting their charter in 1994 .

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See post #743.

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See post #743.

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you mean the one with the un-named "spokesman" ?:inquisitive:
Why not go with Hamadan or Masha'al you will like their ravings?
or for that matter why not go with Tamini who rejects the charter because it is racist and uses the forged protocols but believes in the destruction of the state because its one of those end of times things from scripture .
But the real irony is that those who rejected the Charter over 14 years ago got assasinated by ...errrr.....israel .
See Israel needs to keep the loonies alive so it can say that it can't do a deal with loonies :2thumbsup:
Israel loves Hamas in the same way it loved Arafat and Abbas , keep them frothing at the mouth so you can't do a deal then when they are ready for a deal find a new lunatic that you cannot do a deal with .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

you mean the one with the un-named "spokesman" ?:inquisitive:

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Tribes, it's Reuters, they're generally reliable. I've already quoted a Hamas candidate who said that Hamas does not recognize the right to exist that Israel has. The word "spokesman" isn't mentioned in the article either, by the way, it quotes a statement from Hamas.

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I've already quoted a Hamas candidate

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Which is funny since I refer to the founders and various leaders not "a candidate".

Mars a simple question .

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a statement from Hamas.

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What is hamas ?
A more complicated question .

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the right to exist that Israel has

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What right has Israel got to exist ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Mars a simple question .

What is hamas ?

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Oh, I'm sorry Tribsey, I wasn't aware that you didn't know. Here is a good place to start.

On a more serious note, Hamas issued a statement. If the Labour Party or the Republicans issued a statement, would you ask who the Labour Party or the Republicans were? Come off it.

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What right has Israel got to exist ?

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The same right every other state in the world has to exist, from the USA to Germany to Iraq to Syria.

EDIT: Here's an interesting graph:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ada_deaths.svg

From September 29th, 2000 to April 30th, 2008, less than half of the Palestinian dead have been civilians, whereas roughly three quarters of the Israeli dead have been. Some food for thought.

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The same right every other state in the world has to exist, from the USA to Germany to Iraq to Syria.

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Really ?
What is the legal standing of Israels right to exist ?
Can you see where it gets complicated yet ?
There is something very major missing in Israels right to exist , it goes all the way back to the 1940's .

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On a more serious note, Hamas issued a statement. If the Labour Party or the Republicans issued a statement, would you ask who the Labour Party or the Republicans were? Come off it.

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Oh dear, you don't get it at all , perhaps you should review the history and make up of the organisation from a more thorough perspective than Wiki .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Really ?

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Originally Posted by Menachem Begin

Our right to exist--have you ever heard of such a thing? Would it enter the mind of any Briton or Frenchman, Belgian or Dutchman, Hungarian or Bulgarian, Russian or American, to request for its people recognition of its right to exist? Mr. Speaker, we were granted our right to exist by the God of our fathers at the glimmer of the dawn of human civilization four thousand years ago. Hence, the Jewish people have an historic, eternal and inalienable right to exist in this land, Eretz Israel, the land of our forefathers. We need nobody's recognition in asserting this inalienable right. And for this inalienable right, which has been sanctified in Jewish blood from generation to generation, we have paid a price unexampled in the annals of nations. Mr. Speaker, from the Knesset of Israel, I say to the world, our very existence per se is our right to exist!

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Existence is a fact. Israel has majority diplomatic recognition as a sovereign state.

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Existence is a fact. Israel has majority diplomatic recognition as a sovereign state.

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For a soveriegn State to be properly recognised it needs defined borders ? Where are Israels ?
What is the legal basis for the foundation of Israel ?

Well done , in a topic where we are now discussing terrorists claims about their right to form their state as they see fit you quote a terrorist talking about his right to form a state as he sees fit .
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Open letter to the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSf...=1&tbl_archief

:shame:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

For a soveriegn State to be properly recognised it needs defined borders ? Where are Israels ?

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Israel has de facto recognition from the majority of states in the world.

Bloody hell Frag you really have surpassed yourself this time .

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My objective is to show who meir kahane was and what he said.

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Kahane ??????
the Israelis and Americans both called him a terrorist nut .
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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Israel has de facto recognition from the majority of states in the world.

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Interesting .
Palestine has recognition from the majority of states on the world .
The Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic has de facto recognition of the Free Zone .
Taiwan is only recognised by 23 countries .
Do you see where the legality aspect of this comes in yet ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Bloody hell Frag you really have surpassed yourself this time .


Kahane ??????
the Israelis and Americans both called him a terrorist nut .
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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He makes it pretty clear he's just an ordinary Israeli citizin and that is his perspective, rockets-in-the face-just-suck-it-up technically speaking, or does that logic only comes into full effect when it are non-jews, you seem to be so particulary thoughtfull of the motivations of the arabs even when they are vowing to kill all jews, which is of course a reaction to the reaction of how was reacted upon a reaction of how was reacted on a reaction, or however you want to justify the need to completely whipe out a people and their country for whatever rightious cause that makes your birthday-party's somewhat interesting.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

this sums it up pretty well:

https://i199.photobucket.com/albums/...4/image001.jpg

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Replace the Israeli rifle with a grenade.

Babies!

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Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Replace the Israeli rifle with a grenade.

Babies!

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And the Palestinian one with a suicide vest...

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He makes it pretty clear he's just an ordinary Israeli citizin and that is his perspective

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Yeah Kahane was just an ordinary Israeli citizen too , before that he was just an ordinary american citizen , both countries call him a racist terrorist , what more perspective on his view do you need ?

So in his perspective a statement like this is right ...
Western democracy has to be ruled out. For me that's cut and dried: there's no question of setting up democracy in Israel, because democracy means equal rights for all, irrespective of racial or religious origins
Nice eh ?
I suppose he also agrees from his perspective that Israel includes all the UN allocated territory , all the occupied territory , large parts of Jordan Syria Iraq Lebanon and North Egypt and all non jews must be either expelled or killed .

Like I said , you really have surpassed yourself Frag .:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

And the Palestinian one with a suicide vest...

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yeah Kahane was just an ordinary Israeli citizen too , before that he was just an ordinary american citizen , both countries call him a racist terrorist , what more perspective on his view do you need ?

So in his perspective a statement like this is right ...
Western democracy has to be ruled out. For me that's cut and dried: there's no question of setting up democracy in Israel, because democracy means equal rights for all, irrespective of racial or religious origins
Nice eh ?
I suppose he also agrees from his perspective that Israel includes all the UN allocated territory , all the occupied territory , large parts of Jordan Syria Iraq Lebanon and North Egypt and all non jews must be either expelled or killed .

Like I said , you really have surpassed yourself Frag .:2thumbsup:

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No not nice, but understandable, I do not know this man but I have no objections about what is said in that video, so you do?

Bopa:

Please take your attitude and shelve it. I noted to Griz that the doctrine of "by conquest" HAD -- please note the tense -- a general "acceptance" in international relations. I was suggesting that to dismiss the concept entirely was therefore innacurate. I was careful to note that most nations have repudiated this notion (by virtue of their membership in the UN if nought else).

In short, I was bringing up an analytical point that bears relevance to the larger issue. If you had paused in your vitriolic response, you might have noted that:

1) as Israel draws its legitimacy from the 1947 UN decision to establish that state, Israel is a product of the organization whereby most nations have forsworn conquest but has itself -- at least twice (1948 and 1967) -- acquired territory in conflict and
2) Israel is currently in possession of territories that were set aside for an arab state in the 1947 UN decision;

you could thereby make an argument that Israel de-legitimated itself from the outset. Of course, you chose more a more "strident" response instead. :shame:


On your other "barb:"

You have a right to consider the USA to be an imperialist nation -- you're entitled to hold whatever opinions you wish.

I, myself, DREAM of a world for me and for my children in which the United States, with its current outlook on the world, is the MOST imperialist/aggressive state out there.

Israel our proxy? Chat with Krook if you want to hear about life as a "proxy" hewing wood and hauling water for someone else's agenda. Ally, yes. Take the opportunity to test out weapons systems with live fire, yes. Beg Mossad for humint we were dumb enough to discard or not develop in the region, yes. But a proxy? Don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

No not nice, but understandable, I do not know this man but I have no objections about what is said in that video, so you do?

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Frag:

Didn't see the particular vid in question, but Kahane has a reputation that is as extremist/reactionary as Wilders, if not more so. The Knesset banned his entire party as racists and the USA did formally condem the Kahane Chai organization as a terrorist organization.

Presuming Kahane is a "typical" voice for Israel would be akin to labeling OBL a "typical" voice for Islam.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/wo...ef=todayspaper

Make sure they are civilians, round em up, bomb em, don't go and help them...

Now why didn't the Israeli Army not even go to help or take the wounded/dead away? Why did they even stop the Red Cross for doing so?

Even if they thought there were terrorists inside they would move in to engage or to ensure the target is neutralized. You don't just sit next to a potentially hostile building just because you bombed it.

It seems to me that the intention here was to just make people suffer. Make sure many of them die slowly and in pain. Do people really rejoice by such actions? Noone wonders who authorizes such actions?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Did your country sign a treaty giving Prussia away ?


Did your country sign a treaty giving that land away ?

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They were signed under pressure. Documents signed under pressure are illegal.

There, now give us all that land back please or I'll start firing homemade LEGO rockets into Poland. :eyebrows:

Concerning the nice picture with the babies, there are two problems I have with it:
1) the israeli soldiers have a tendency to fire anyway
2) I guess the assault rifles can easily penetrate the first target

so all four of the depicted persons will be dead in the end and what's the whole point of the picture now? :inquisitive:
Except of course proving the point that the whole thing is a bloody mess and both sides are being idiots.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

as extremist/reactionary as Wilders

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:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

this sums it up pretty well:

https://i199.photobucket.com/albums/...4/image001.jpg

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Yes, hilarious "hooahguy" how the Palestinian militants are depicted as fighting among the civilian population.

Well duh smart guy, did you know that they live there as well? There in the overcrowded Gaza Strip? Where else can the Palestinians fight the Israeli invaders? North Dakota?

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...tandmiss-g.jpg

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They were signed under pressure. Documents signed under pressure are illegal.

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So that means Britain can have America back as it was under pressure when it signed the Paris treaty

So does that mean that Egypts and Jordans peace deals with Israel are illegal ?
If Hamas or Israel signs a ceasefire is that illegal ?

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No not nice, but understandable, I do not know this man but I have no objections about what is said in that video, so you do?

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Yes plenty of objections , because it is the usual hate filled crap from Kahane .

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Originally Posted by Fragony

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...tandmiss-g.jpg

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I think a lot of us are currently asking the question of the guy on the left side - unfortunately there are a lot of doubts that the people in charge are asking the same questions.

Currently this "caricature" seems somewhat meaningless... (but I guess everybody can scribble a little picture on paper and just make stuff up)

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Originally Posted by Fragony

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...tandmiss-g.jpg

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Only error there: not "shoot" but "kill them all"

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

So that means Britain can have America back as it was under pressure when it signed the Paris treaty

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Yes, about time, America needs CCTVs and a gun ban. ~D

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

So does that mean that Egypts and Jordans peace deals with Israel are illegal ?
If Hamas or Israel signs a ceasefire is that illegal ?

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That depends on who proposed them, if the weaker party did then they are legal because the stronger party was not under pressure signing them. IIRC the idea to give away Prussia did not exactly come from the german side they just had no way to say no to it and would have signed almost anything at the time.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Only error there: not "shoot" but "kill them all"

~:smoking:

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Nownow how would you know, everybody knows Israel doesn't allow any journalists :balloon2:

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everybody knows Israel doesn't allow any journalists

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Nor food or humanitarian aid.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Nor food or humanitarian aid.

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yeah terrible. Maybe they should have used the fertiliser to grow crops instead of making explosives, just an idea. But alas they didn't and now they cry, maybe their arab brothers can spare some they care so very, very deeply after all. Oh silly me they prefer them poor and hungry makes for better pictures.

Fragony, arguing with someone like you is pointless. For some reason, the idea of peace just doesn't enter your mind. I don't know whatever happened that you hate the Palestinians so much, but the way you regard Arabs and Muslims as second-range humans sickens me.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Fragony, arguing with someone like you is pointless. For some reason, the idea of peace just doesn't enter your mind. I don't know whatever happened that you hate the Palestinians so much, but the way you regard Arabs and Muslims as second-range humans sickens me.

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Yeah how very terrible of me that I, unlike some, am not particulary sympathatic towards a internationaly recognised terrorist-organisation who wants to whipe out an entire country and it's people. Not particulary fond of the palestinians no, and the palestinians that don't support Hamas are either dead, have fled, or are too terrified to speak up by now. If you burn your :daisy: you will have to sit on the blisters as we say here in Holland.

Fled. Fled where? The borders are sealed! And as another party was democratically elected they have to leave all their possessions and try to get through an Israeli cordon. Yeah, that'd work

Under 50% voted for Hamas.

Ergo THOUSANDS didn't want Hamas, but have no choice but to stay as they can't leave.

myopic or moronic. Not sure which...

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Fled. Fled where? The borders are sealed! And as another party was democratically elected they have to leave all their possessions and try to get through an Israeli cordon. Yeah, that'd work

Under 50% voted for Hamas.

Ergo THOUSANDS didn't want Hamas, but have no choice but to stay as they can't leave.

myopic or moronic. Not sure which...

~:smoking:

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Hence too terrified to speak up, do you know any palestinians? Hamas is one sick organisation they aren't the poor and deprived organised, Hamas is the scum of the earth and it should be dead, gone, finito.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If you burn your *** you will have to sit on the blisters as we say here in Holland.

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And what part of that doesn't apply to the issue of Israel getting the occasional crop of homemade rockets and suicide bombers as a direct result of its land-grabbing, I wonder...?

Nahh, not biased at all here. No way our dear resident xenophobe and Islam-hater would be, right ? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Watchman

And what part of that doesn't apply to the issue of Israel getting the occasional crop of homemade rockets and suicide bombers as a direct result of its land-grabbing, I wonder...?

Nahh, not biased at all here. No way our dear resident xenophobe and Islam-hater would be, right ? :dizzy2:

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Of course I am biased, I tend to have a dislike for organisations that want to whipe out a country and it's people. Hax is right it is really not worth discussing with someone like me, as I have developed a strong dislike for organisations that want to whipe out an entire country and it's people, a shade of grey you seem to find acceptable when the tea is sweet enough.

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Yeah how very terrible of me that I, unlike some, am not particulary sympathatic towards a internationaly recognised terrorist-organisation who wants to whipe out an entire country and it's people.

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Says someone who is sympathetic towards an internationally recognised terrorist organisation who wants to wipe out several countries and their people .
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

You really dropped yourself in it Frag , hows them blisters on your ****?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Of course I am biased, I tend to have a dislike for organisations that want to whipe out a country and it's people. Hax is right it is really not worth discussing with someone like me, as I have developed a strong dislike for organisations that want to whipe out an entire country and it's people, a shade of grey you seem to find acceptable when the tea is sweet enough.

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And like I keep telling you, what they "want" is right well irrelevant as they're patently incapable of ever even trying to realize it. So moot point.
Which is why such movements are so wont to "mellow out" once they come in from the wilds and have to start to wear ties and sit behind big mahogany tables and add up numbers in bureaucratic paperwork.

Why are you so hung up on Hamas' little piece of rhetorical fantasy, anyway ?

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Why are you so hung up on Hamas' little piece of rhetorical fantasy, anyway ?

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Because it works, everybody is falling for it

Especially you ?

Granted, it seems to be a rather important building block in the case you're making...

Personally, I prefer to take bombastic political declarations with a rather major pinch of salt.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Especially you ?

Granted, it seems to be a rather important building block in the case you're making...

Personally, I prefer to take bombastic political declarations with a rather major pinch of salt.

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I am not narcistic enough for making this my own, this goes a whole lot further then whatever self-rightious intentions I happen to not have. Can we please stop keeping correcting what we know crap about, which would be the middle-east.

Now that just went incoherent. What're you trying to say ?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

yeah terrible. Maybe they should have used the fertiliser to grow crops instead of making explosives, just an idea. But alas they didn't and now they cry, maybe their arab brothers can spare some they care so very, very deeply after all. Oh silly me they prefer them poor and hungry makes for better pictures.

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So much hate and not even one argument.

The idea that they could have used 'fertilizer' to grow crops as an excuse to why humanitarian aid is blocked from reaching them...

...and then somehow you forget aid is being blocked and u ask the other arabs to send aid? (Which is being blocked?!)

Ok we got it, you hate the Arabs. Fine. U dont really have a reason. Fine. Could it be possible, if you are not planning to use any arguments, to stop spamming the thread?

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Now that just went incoherent. What're you trying to say ?

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This war in just a vehicle for some. Pretending they give a crap but it's all political correctness, who gives a crap about Palestina.You are the lead star in your own Unicef-commercial.

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Originally Posted by rasoforos

So much hate and not even one argument.

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Yeah yeah, in the meantime I support 4 african familie, including a playstation for all of them, have adopted four elders in Russia, and give 100 euro a month to friends of Iran so people in Iran don't get hanged, that is more then 200 euro month, how about you? :daisy:

I detect a failed argument that has now collapsed into incoherent, vague accusations and nihilistic raving.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Yeah yeah, in the meantime I support 4 african familie, including a playstation for all of them, have adopted four elders in Russia, and give 100 euro a month to friends of Iran so people in Iran don't get hanged, that is more then 200 euro month, how about you? :daisy:

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:barrel:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Says someone who is sympathetic towards an internationally recognised terrorist organisation who wants to wipe out several countries and their people .
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

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Oh, I'm sorry, when did the Israelis start committing genocide or state that they'd like to?

Look, it's got nothing to do with hating the Arabs. On the other hand, Hamas actually is an anti-Semetic organization. So, why don't I suggest that you're all anti-Semetic? Come on. Supporting Israel doesn't mean you hate Arabs - it means you don't like the people who broke this ceasefire that much (and that wasn't Israel, it was Hamas).

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Originally Posted by Watchman

I detect a failed argument that has now collapsed into incoherent, vague accusations and nihilistic raving.

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And everybody cheers, but this isn't your university technologicallycoherentlytothepointspeaking.

So, what should Israel do, and how will it work, and why, and of course because.


[insert superior logic here]

How about you call back when you're sober again ?

But if you want my opinion on what Israel should do, it starts with canning the idiotic "Biblical Israel" dream, dumping the loonies adhering to it to the political wilderness where they belong, and goddamn giving the Palestinians a viable plot of land to live on. One of the suggestions I've seen floated in diverse writings over the years involved the Palestinians in effect becoming a buffer state between Israel and Syria, Lebanon and Jordan...

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Originally Posted by Watchman

How about you call back when you're sober again ?

But if you want my opinion on what Israel should do, it starts with canning the idiotic "Biblical Israel" dream, dumping the loonies adhering to it to the political wilderness where they belong, and goddamn giving the Palestinians a viable plot of land to live on. One of the suggestions I've seen floated in diverse writings over the years involved the Palestinians in effect becoming a buffer state between Israel and Syria, Lebanon and Jordan...

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So in short you want the west to keep distributing land? We know best after all.

"The West" ? No, I want Israel to stop being an avaricious bully which is the main thing sustaining the conflict. They have that land ATM, groslly illegally I'll remind you.

Also, judging by the decades-long utter failure of Israeli policy to bring anything even approaching peace nevermind now a viable solution to the question of where the fig the Palestinians are actually suppose to live and how, I daresay they for sure don't "know best" so...

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Originally Posted by Watchman

"The West" ? No, I want Israel to stop being an avaricious bully which is the main thing sustaining the conflict.

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That's what you lefties say, or rather 'have agreed upon'. I think I just can't handle the truth.

Gentlemen,

Let's cut out the ad hominems and personal attacks, please. If one finds a poster's viewpoint irritating or difficult to engage with, simply ignore them and move on.

Thank you kindly,

:bow: