If you say so. I think he's a great lynch, and I would definitely lynch him if there was support.
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I think the weakest push on me so far is the bit about Newyn. It's pretty clear from the context of my posts that I was giving my impression of his meta, not an assessment of his alignment this game.
It's nice that folks think it's a slam dunk case, so when it isn't, they should probably have a contingency plan for tomorrow, if they're town and still alive.
It stinks when you're mafia and El Barto comes after you for the wrong reason, doesn't it?
My reason is not the same as his, by the way, if you didn't notice.
'if they're town and still alive"
Should I break out the bulletproof vest?
Yeah, what's the worst is that thing where people go "oh it's too bad you randed scum, isn't it" etc and I have to listen to that all round. I'll keep posting as long as I don't have to continue reading that kinda nonsense. Otherwise, I'll post my reads and my final vote and walk away.
I just dealt with that crap in the hydra game, from none other than soah, who should know better. You should too.
Its not cute, and I'm already annoyed. Just saying.
I don't know what Hydra game you're talking about. If you think I'm coming after you because of some kindof vague Pizza paranoia, you'd be wrong.
I'm short on time until much later today, but tell me who's scum and why.
3. ATPG - Choxorn
14. Novice
4. BSmith
1. Renata
7. Montmorency
8. Seireikhaan
12. Newyn
9. Al Sipsclar
6. El Barto
13. Atheotes
This is what I've got. I'd look inside that bottom three sooner rather than later. If you have an actual case on the next group of three I'm listening.
I don't have a big case to push on any of them. I just think no one is willing to look there and they haven't been especially townie in my book.
I have no power that you'll miss out on if I get lynched. Only issue is you're closer to lylo, so enjoy.
Best case against Pizza. I missed it and I even cited scum-Pizza's shading of DP in the last game.Quote:
Originally Posted by novice
Next-best case against Pizza.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza
Adding to an earlier comment, I suggest that if Khaan is actually town, then Pizza's first vote of today (on Atheotes) makes Atheotes likely as a scum. Pizza breadcrumbs partners with his initial votes when he becomes center of attention, I think.
Vote: Pizza
What Riedquat/novice did wasn't pristine, but I don't think a scum novice would pick out that fact about Pizza's D1 presentation. Hardly even makes sense if novice had been following the game expecting to sub in for scum, which is a silly thought itself.
Pizza, expand your thoughts on BSmith?
I don't like atheotes kind of pointless 'suspicion' of me and Zack; it seems kind of pro-forma. Other than that he's been fine. I have nothing in particular on Sips or El Barto, especially with choxorn being dead town. Those guys are why I want last night's extra shot to claim. Zack was outside my personal POE and I'm not happy.
Pizza, if you can't see a case on GH/Khaan by now especially after that terrible catch-up thing Khaan pulled out last night, I don't know what to say. That's why I'm suspicious of you, as much as anything. Khaan needs to die.
Pizza's list is pretty much opposite mine. He's going for a team of lurkers, more or less, who have managed through sheer luck to make it this far without ever being voted for pretty much, much less lynched. Damn, they're good?
I'm going for precisely the opposite.
Probably hasn't changed much if only because I haven't posted much since. I am now in Manila and present again. Not necessarily coherent but present. I'm indecisive and extremely susceptible to manipulation. I don't have strong scum feelings on anyone really and open to sheeping again today.
My above post was in response to pizza.
I tend to fall into the Renata camp of thinking here.
Re: Zack, not cleared, but there was in all practicality no way I was voting for him ahead of a half dozen other people.
By the way, in case you hadn't noticed, atheotes is in the more talkative half of this game.
Now it looks like there've been a ton of townies being voted for all game.
And no one has been pushing on several people.
Guess where the scums probably are, given the low talking and recent exposure to power wolfing we've gotten from other websites.
They're not bussing. They're not suspecting and they're not voting one another. So I'd probably go with that.
But keep pushing me today, that will end really well for you Ren.
My team of lurking scums I came up with, based on post count.
1. Renata
7. Montmorency
3. ATPG
6. El Barto <-----4th most talkative living player, guy I accused.
13. Atheotes <----- 5th most talkative living player, guy I accused.
14. Riedquat/novice <----Guy I've defended
8. Seireikhaan <----Guy I'm not pushing
9. Al Sipsclar <----Guy I voted once and still suspect but am looking other places.
12. Newyn <----Guy I'm not pushing.
4. BSmith <------Guy I said is town.
Look at that team of lurkers I came up with.
Renata do me a favor and drop all the bullshit and start playing the game in a somewhat straightforward manner.
Most of the activity beside DP101 has been a set of Al Sipsclar, Riedquat/novice, GH/khaan, Newyn, and Choxorn voting between one another.Quote:
They're not bussing. They're not suspecting and they're not voting one another. So I'd probably go with that.
This could apply to you just as well.
I also wonder where I ever implied they must be a team.
It's gonna be a pretty shitty endgame where people have to re-examine a whole lot, with no dead scums, and everyone's smug assumptions no longer around to keep them company.
Tu quoque is not a defense of one's own behavior.
What I'm saying is, if you're going to paint a picture of what I'm saying, be kind to me and say what it is I've actually said, and make what you're saying fit some facts.
I voted 2 townies, yep. For that reason I must be scum. Good, I'm glad we sorted that out. I guess everyone else has a sterling record and mine's the worst.
What applies to me that applies to everyone isn't a great case. And I do happen to be town, fyi in case anyone gives a damn. But I don't care, I will lynch today and you guys can sort out the mess. As I said, you won't be missing out on anything when I die.
You're way too unhappy, Pizza. I don't know if it's an act.
In regards to lurking, I apologize for my imprecise language. I mean they're not saying much or pushing much, regardless of how much they chatter. And ElBarto and atheotes' talk, productve or not, was almost all day one.
You may be right. But if there's powerwolfing going on, it's probably not in the group of people who haven't even needed to powerwolf, as they've never been threatened one bit.
You made an argument that in itself applies just as well to you as to the players you highlighted. So why should we use to it vote some player as opposed to using it to vote you? Other arguments against your list (as a group) haven't amounted to much...Quote:
Tu quoque is not a defense of one's own behavior.
You can chalk up the first thing and the second thing to the events of day 2, in my case, and then in my opinion.
Doesn't tell you much about alignment because I think it impacted everyone. I'm looking at vote pattern and assuming scums just pushed townies all game and avoided talking about or voting one another, because there was no reason not to.
Powerwolfing in this context merely means voting townies and not pushing one another.
If they're not under vote threat or even being talked about, bussing is not the only option, not bussing usually works better anyway.
It may not be those specific people, but we're never going to get anywhere if the game just stagnates with the same suspects.
Talking about khaan and novice, whose slots have been under lazy suspicion all game, is fine, as long as I can talk about some new people.
Can we add more people to the topic?
And you can throw my name in there. I haven't done anything to get town-read this game. That's also fine. Sucks, but it's how it is.
The point is, they need to be discussed. You wait until the final rounds, everyone who is an easy lock townie read or slot will be dead by then.
You discuss it now while I'm still here to give an opinion on it. And you too, Renata.
Right now I couldn't give a damn where someone is voting.
I do care what they're talking about and who. And I'm not impressed by the content so far.
Especially if they resist me on this point, I will bite down and never let go. I want to hear opinions on those slots that haven't been discussed.
If that's not cool, I will expend the remainder of my energy caring about this game going to war about it.
That all sounds like your typical scum device, but fine:
Most of the case against atheotes as I see it would be a continuation of my "stagnant" pursuit of the DP101 file, which you didn't feel was worth commenting on. Aside from atheotes not having to throw in much of himself - which on the long trend is in character as either alignment for him - and my idea, what do you think we have to talk about in regard to him? He may or may not be scum, but he's worth talking about - so is there anything else you can say?
Talk us through why you lynched Dp, Pizza.
So Pizza isn't your teammate then?
There may be some uninterpretable votes that are not included in the voting history of these tallies.
Day 1 lynch tally:
Lynch votes
5 votes: Dp101 (GeneralHankerchief, atheotes, Newyn, Askthepizzaguy, Renata)
5 votes: Riedquat (Choxorn, Stork, Al Sipsclar, Dp101, Montmorency)
2 votes: Montmorency (El Barto, Scarlett Aria)
1 votes: Al Sipsclar (BSmith)
1 votes: newyn (Zack)
1 votes: No Lynch (Riedquat)
Voting history:Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Day 2 lynch tally:
Lynch votes
5 votes: GeneralHankerchief (Zack, Al Sipsclar, Montmorency, Renata, Choxorn)
5 votes: Choxorn (Newyn, Askthepizzaguy, Riedquat, seireikhaan, atheotes)
1 votes: Newyn (BSmith)
1 votes: Riedquat (El Barto)
Not voting: Stork
Voting history:Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Confirmed villagers marked with strikethrough.
- Newyn, Askthepizzaguy, GH/seireikhaan, atheotes voted as a block on a townie on both days.
- Choxorn, Al Sipsclar, and Montmorency voted as a block on both days.
- Day 1 was villager vs. villager so things are not quite as simple as they seem though.
Day 1 lynch tally:
Lynch votes
5 votes:Dp101(GeneralHankerchief, atheotes, Newyn, Askthepizzaguy, Renata)
5 votes: Riedquat (Choxorn,Stork, Al Sipsclar,Dp101, Montmorency)
2 votes: Montmorency (El Barto,Scarlett Aria)
1 votes: Al Sipsclar (BSmith)
1 votes: newyn (Zack)
1 votes: No Lynch (Riedquat)
Voting history:Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Day 2 lynch tally:
Lynch votes
5 votes: GeneralHankerchief (Zack, Al Sipsclar, Montmorency, Renata,Choxorn)
5 votes:Choxorn(Newyn, Askthepizzaguy, Riedquat, seireikhaan, atheotes)
1 votes: Newyn (BSmith)
1 votes: Riedquat (El Barto)
Not voting:Stork
Voting history:Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Tally as of post 758:
Lynch votes
2 votes: Askthepizzaguy (novice, Montmorency)
1 votes: GeneralHankerchief (Renata)
1 votes: atheotes (Askthepizzaguy)
1 votes: Al Sipsclair (seireikhaan)
Voting history:Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Key for this portion:
D1Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
5 votes: Dp101 (GeneralHankerchief/khaan, atheotes, Newyn, Askthepizzaguy, Renata)
5 votes: Riedquat/novice (Choxorn, Stork, Al Sipsclar, Dp101, Montmorency)
2 votes: Montmorency (El Barto, Scarlett Aria)
1 votes: Al Sipsclar (BSmith)
1 votes: newyn (Zack)
1 votes: No Lynch (Riedquat/novice)
D2
5 votes: GeneralHankerchief/khaan (Zack, Al Sipsclar, Montmorency, Renata, Choxorn)
5 votes: Choxorn (Newyn, Askthepizzaguy, Riedquat/novice, GH/seireikhaan, atheotes)
1 votes: Newyn (BSmith)
1 votes: Riedquat/novice (El Barto)
Not voting: Stork
=====================================
Key for this portion:
D1 historySpoiler Alert, click show to read:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Al's vote for dp, then Riedquat, looks like he doesn't care which of them gets lynched as long as one of them does.
Note Riedquat's vote placement at end of day 1.
D2 History:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The vote that jumps out at me here is atheotes' vote to tie it up at the very end of d2.
I may not have all the votes here, if the vote counter missed them. But these are the ones I can easily find.
Note for above post, that is me looking at the vote pattern with my previous leans. I'm not done doing analysis so those leans can change and do not represent finalized leans.
I just needed workspace so I can visualize it.
TLDR version
Riedquat's vote on d1 and behavior all game doesn't lend itself to a scum read from me.
GH is less clear, but because reasons, he's also a town read from me.
And our worst case scenario is when they're both townies, so we have to look at that. I also think it's more than 50% probable. Maybe a lot more.
Looking at that scenario, you see questionable vote patterns emerge.
I don't know what Al's doing this game with his vote, but it's not townie stuff. I also think the votes on Al came from townies this game, and weren't picked up on because it's tough to build a case for Al, and everyone was demoralized yesterday, and scums seemed to have a comfortable position, not needing to bus.
Unless Newyn was scum, in which case, they got pressure recently.
Atheotes' final vote on d2 is the clear winner of the worst vote of the game contest, I don't need an explanation or even context to see that. That's just clear from the vote tally.
You know, I'm not sold on Newyn, but I trust the folks who have voted for him. If you need a fourth, that's my fourth.
Half dead townies, half my strongest town reads are there.
I don't know if it's right, and I think Al and atheotes have worse vote patterns. But I'll vote with those people if that's my fourth option or it's him v me.
2 votes: Askthepizzaguy (novice, Montmorency)
1 votes: GeneralHankerchief (Renata) <-----Remove votes from here
1 votes: atheotes (Askthepizzaguy) <--------Put votes here
1 votes: Al Sipsclair (seireikhaan) <--------Put votes here
Want to leave me dangling at the top, feel free. I just want those two as my counter wagons.
Re: Atheotes, if you take for argument's sake that Khaan/GH is town, then why would Atheotes' vote be scummy? If scum was chilling out and riding on a demoralized town then an EOD chaos vote is not a credible scum move. I could see him as scum, but not for this and not today. Otherwise, atheotes' pattern is indistinguishable from yours (only item is the D1 DP101 vote).
What's your analysis of Barto?
Looking briefly at seireikhaan:
There is some "maaybe you have a point" to this, but I struggle to see how it adds up to a strong scum lean.
Then you vote him today with an incredibly generic followup reason which doesn't even particularly apply. Al Sips actually said it would be a relief to be lynched.
In short, even without judging Al Sips alignment, the reasons for your vote are not very believable.
As for the incident which we are banned from discussing, I'd love to discuss it. But let's just say I think in the end it's not alignment indicative.
Renata, what are your (additional) reasons for voting Seireikhaan? The day one Dp101 push?
Pizza, you're saying Al Sips is scum for his voting pattern, right? Any other reasons? What specifically about the votes makes him scum?
Atheotes' vote is scummy because he waited all round to make a move, then his move was to go against the 5 vote lead wagon on someone a lot of folks found scummy. The slot is probably town, and keeping a mislynch alive is a great idea. If the khaan slot dies, he looks better for voting for the not cleared choxorn, and if the slot doesn't die, he can blame others for driving the lynch and simply suggest that GH/khaan looked townie to him. It's defensible both ways, and both ways causes headaches for town.
Pattern is indistinguishable from mine if you are deliberately trying to not look for distinguishing characteristics. So you're either playing devil's advocate or you can be scum atp.
I also think that if Al would find it a relief to be lynched then we should give him his earned respite.
Sounds like he doesn't want to pretend to be town.
I think the bottom line is 3 townies.
I think the second to bottom line contains another townie, possibly two, but I'm not feeling the "same with Monty."
If I'm mafia something that didn't happen this game. Kind of random declarations about dp's wagon which are generic.
I can't make up my mind = struggling to be a scum. Particularly given how he has five suspects. Sounds like he's found his mislynches.
Is it more scummy than if he had made it earlier? Why? The same logic you present still applies, and in a way that draws less attention to himself.Quote:
Atheotes' vote is scummy because he waited all round to make a move, then his move was to go against the 5 vote lead wagon on someone a lot of folks found scummy. The slot is probably town, and keeping a mislynch alive is a great idea. If the khaan slot dies, he looks better for voting for the not cleared choxorn, and if the slot doesn't die, he can blame others for driving the lynch and simply suggest that GH/khaan looked townie to him. It's defensible both ways, and both ways causes headaches for town.
In fact, atheotes gave his reasoning as finding nothing scummy about Khaan, so scum atheotes would gain nothing by playing that move later rather than earlier.
^
Shifts the blame to Stork while voting for quat, then asks for a claim and tells people he's leaving, thus preventing him from moving his vote even if there is a claim.
Given that Riedquat was his suspect, he made no positive effort to defend his vote with reasons why quat was scummy, and doesn't seem to even want to embrace his own suspicion on quat, preferring to pre-emptively defend his vote reasoning as following Stork.
It's not a slam dunk but the next day when votes arrive, his wagon stalls.
And we'd rather not talk about him yet, because reasons.
That's what I was getting at?Quote:
Scummy people don't do scummy things, because it draws attention to themselves.
What?Quote:
Nevermind the fact that I'm the only one discussing it and we'd better wait until tomorrow at the earliest to take a look at him.
772 and 774 is the extent of where I stand on Al Sipsclar. He's got something like 19 posts of mostly empty space, the two posts I picked out are the problem.
Atheotes will take a bit longer to unpack, so I'll pick this up tomorrow.
So your top suspect is Al, ok. Any preliminary comments on your third suspect?
Why thank you.Quote:
You are quite distinguished yourself at this point.
11 left, 4? mafia would make tomorrow LYLO. Time to get in a lynch from each "group". We need to consolidate. I'm fine with Al Sips as one candidate. Pizza or Khaan as the other and why?
go town style comment
Newyn looks better to me on re-read, but I'm not convinced. There's very little to go on. Mostly, it's that the stork-wolf read was so incredibly pointless, if scum.
Khann's catch-up post, otherwise known as Exhibit A why I think he's mafia.
Tangential comment -- Another Stork scum read, and I guess calls into question my lessening my scum read on Newyn for doing the exact same thing.
While I can see Al Sips as scum, I cannot see Al Sips as scum for almost any of these reasons. That raises a red flag for me. It's the opposite of a mind-meld.Quote:
Askthepizzaguy: Like I can read this guy. My best chance at deciphering pizza is with LYLO shenanigans. Next.
El Barto: Like I can read this guy either. Next.
Bsmith: Currently afk-ish in the Phillipines on business. Try to enjoy yourself if you can, and watch out for army majors. :bow: Anyways, not a ton to read on. Early joke on Al Sips, who I have some suspicion towards, raises a small flag, but that's about as much as I have. Slightly scum lean.
Monty: Both his original case and wanting to save DP(who he apparently can read better than me) seem authentic in my opinion. Could be a case of maf trying to build cred by "trying" to save a doomed townie, but that seems less likely(maybe 30-40% chance) than he simply had a better read on DP than those not familiar with him. That said, I'll need some better explanation on the vote for GH/me for being "polished". GH has played the game, strictly speaking, longer on the .org here any any present, so polish is.... bad? Clarification? Could be looking to get on a convenient wagon. Unsure lean, d1 seems likelier town, d2 confusing that.
Al Sips: Low relative activity. Post 330 strikes some scum radar for me - types words, but none of it really means much. Some admitted hesitance is fine, though. Saying he'd leave someone who came out town as someone to end game strikes me as a bit perfect information syndrome-y. Saying people he doesn't like doesn't add anything. Revenge voted for GH today adding a fairly vindictive "Planning to lynch another townie today, General?". Seems PIS-y, as well as possibly hoping to out someone on his trail if mafia. Strong scum lean.
I feel like 'decent town lean' for someone who's voting on you requires a little more self-convincing than this. At least there should be a reason. Explanation? It was clear enough. He didn't like a few of GH's comments, right before he voted. This is a weirdly unfocused question, under the circumstances.Quote:
Zack: Decent enough case on Newynn on day 1 and pursued it appropriately if he felt decently about it. I tend to agree with most of the posts he's made except on possible Stork Scum which might be a troubling sign. @Zack explanation for current day's vote? Decent town lean.
Strong scum lean on a guy who's done basically nothing out of the ordinary for him and nothing different from what half the game has done at least once so far at that? And it just so happens to be a strong scum lean on the guy he needs to vote to self-pres? (And who happened to be town at that, something I was actually expecting after reading this post!) This is the 'read' that made me go 'yeah right' last night.Quote:
Choxorn: Lurking, relatively speaking. Ironically asks of Riedquat : "Did you just think you'd try to get a post in and make it look like you were doing something?" While himself being quite low poster. Gave a basic recount of his accusation of Riedquat's D1 post on D2, but it feels to me like the kind of thing I do on occasion as mafia where I just latch on to one bad post from someone relativley under the radar to get "free" votes off. Strong scum lean.
Another red flag. "Those latching onto this case" include me, Zack, Bsmith. That's it. He's given town reads to me and to Zack. So who's the 'those'? There is no 'those',is there? It just sounded logical in your head.Quote:
Newyn: Gave a weird read on the first page which he didn't follow on, and kinda lazed into a DP vote by the end of D1. Low-ish on activity. On the surface, seems scummy, but the reads cannot have been that serious so early in the first day, which makes me suspicious of those latching onto this case. Was correct in his argument with Stork about night choice kill and the wolf discussion. Decent town lean.
But it's not too much for Al Sips, who did the same exact thing?Quote:
Atheotes: Early discussion of NK choice - possible maf trying to create false lead on his own kill? Hmm... Tone reads town, however, decent convicition in lynch choice. Read - null.
Riedquat: Goof vote on day 1, THE HORROR. On the surface, seems clearly scummy and lackadaisical. Well, one of those is true at least. Post asking himself to by lynched on day 2 is too much. Too aggressively off the wall. Strong town lean.
This is a fairly well put together post in places, but the rest is a three-alarm fire.
vote: khaan
I'm not so sure you or I should do that. I have a bad feeling about the split votes thus far. But I guess there's still tomorrow.
El Barto, opinons on Al Sips, Khaan, Pizza.
While I re-read their particular posts, (btw whom did seireikhaan replace? General Hankerchief?) why did you switch your vote off pizza early in the day? There's no hammer here.
The problem when I play like this, reading a hundred posts or two in one go, is that I get sensations rather than individualised reads. I've been offline for 48 RL hours.
So, you asked and I skim through the thread:
Al Sipsclar and seireikhaan: one votes for the other, (is #754 'khaan's reason for his vote is townie-sounding, #711 from novice is still a good one, I'm not sure whether 'khaan convinces me with his reply in #756) I can't see them being scum together if they do that. Where is Al? I could go with lynching an unproductive townie who hardly posts at all, but hey, that would still be a townie getting lynched and they sound like a circular firing squad.
ATPG: As of posts #661, 662 and 664 I was having a bit of a beef with him and he chose to ignore me from then on rather than convince me that I was wrong. And he's accusing me of being scum on post #760 where he does his townie act.
Refer to my post above, I'm still itchy about Monty, but he'll probably just continue to tell me to ‘get off it’. Policy lynch?
To see if novice was going to be willing to vote GH/Khaan, because I think it possible they're teammates. He wasn't willing. Also because Khaan is a stronger scum read right now than Pizza is.
novice/khaan…? Coooould be, so you say #711 and the other posts I mention are them throwing each other softballs? :creep:
Well, I'll wait for you to read #792 first.
I'm pretty sure I came up with the same conclusion about Al Sips and Khaan not being mafia together, can't quite remember.
Pizza ignored you, played "don't be dumb" with me, heck if I know what it all means except that I would prefer it means he's mafia.
Policy lynch Monty? Sure, El Barto. You do you.
Pretty sure I get shot tonight regardless, so it would be nice to have something right somewhere for posterity.
Your ass and posterity… OK.
I was only looking through their posts, nobody else's.
He did it two games ago when I was Flexo the unkillable proven townie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renata
Lacking better leads and proper sleeping hours, vote: Montmorency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renata