Ukraine-in-a-thread

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Well, wiki, which isn't always the most reliable of sources, I admit, says you're wrong.

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It doesn't, really.

1884 changed what was an important decision into a mere formality. But that's not the end of the story, the introduction of a vote of no confidence is far more important. After all, Norwegian governments are never affirmed, they are only thrown. So, who has the power to throw the government is extremely important. That the legislative could do that, was not written in law until the constitutional changes in 2007. Still, the two votes of no confidence('28 and '63) were legally binding with no written law covering it, and indeed disallowed by the constitution.

The last sentence from wiki, about the King de facto appointing the government after an election without a majority(which is the rule, majorities are an exception) is pure rubbish. The writer of that wiki page seems to have very little understanding of how government functions....

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I won't say that's it's not a possibility, but it's pretty far fetched to me.

Putin spent better part of his time(s) in office sucking up and repairing relations with the west, increase trade volume many times and pushing long term deal and even more economic cooperation. That he would risk all that on piece of useless territory just because he wan't moar land is a little hard to believe.

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Its not about land Sarmatian its far more likely to be about power. (to ensure the security of Russia)

Rightly or wrongly he and they probably believe that Russia is in a strugle for the post soviet world.

Im guessing the kremlin believes Russia could even unravel if they dont fight such things.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Yeah, I'm calling bollox on that and would like to see the source. Only area where salaries of 8000-12000$ for hospital administrators are possible are in some big private medical complexes and even there only in a few biggest. In state hospitals (which are 99,99% of all hospitals in Russia) there's no way they have such salaries.

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Trust in the master put you must. Not contradict the master you must. Bad padawan.

The source is of course in Russian, but that's your problem.
http://www.kprfkh.ru/index.php/254-c...6-1-tys-rublej

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

Its not about land Sarmatian its far more likely to be about power. (to ensure the security of Russia)

Rightly or wrongly he and they probably believe that Russia is in a strugle for the post soviet world.

Im guessing the kremlin believes Russia could even unravel if they dont fight such things.

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In that case, wouldn't we have been better off not encouraging the kind of stupid revolutioneering that happened in Ukraine, and encouraged instead an at least stable electoral cycle that Russia can be comfortable with and which could change for the better with gradual reform? The idiotically short-sighted thought it would be a good idea to topple the Yanukovich government because he was pro-Russia, so that he could be replaced by a pro-west government. Well, Russia can afford to decisively lose control of Ukraine less than we can, and a we've shown that we have no desire to play fair by established rules, they aren't inclined to do so either. And those short-sighted idiots forgot that Russia are in a better position to play unfair than we are.

I was comfortable with the previous situation before we started upping the ante, which I thought was stupid from the off. My assessment of its stupidity has largely been corroborated by events since the revolution, and still these fools urge us to press on because we are on the side of right. Well, we shouldn't have been playing this game in the first place, and my preference is to drop out of it until we get some stable rules again. War with Russia over this :daisy: up in the Ukraine which we shouldn't have indulged in in the first place? :daisy: that.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Revolution is great if you're just trying to destabilize Russia's sphere of influence. I'm sure that's as far as anyone thought it out, and as long as nobody takes Putin's bait that's how it'll play out.

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Why destabilise it though? Both the EU and Russia were onto a good thing with periodically cycling governments, a predictable electoral cycle, roughly 50% vote either way, and a stable trading environment. It was never a zero sum game, or at least it should never have been played as such when there was a win-win alternative. Are the evangelising liberal democrats going to push for influence within Russian borders next?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I think its more like Ukrainians did this themselves and the west just took the opportunity for a pot shot at Russia. :shrug:

The revolution was going to happen anyway and Putin was just waiting for the chance to do something on his end too.

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AIUI we've been giving a fair bit of political and financial support to the anti-Yanukovich cause. However much it was, I'm inclined to drop it to zero until Ukraine and Russia patch things up and we have a stable environment again. We're not in much need of Ukraine if it means we're at odds with Russia.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

We're not in much need of Ukraine if it means we're at odds with Russia.

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The problem is not Ukraine as much as the fact that you're likely to have to repeat the "We're not in much need of X" spiel many times over before the bear is satisfied. If the bear can be satisfied. Are you willing to bear that risk? I find it unbearable.

According to Swedish media, a drone has been hi-jacked in Crimea.

It seems like amateur work.

I do believe that we some pages back discussed drones, and I claimed that modern states would have no problem swatting them out of the air. I for a fact know that Sweden had a hush-hush program already in the very early millenium, I am sure we have perfected it since.

So for anyone believing drones will have an impact against anything but the third-world bashing USA is so famous for, think again.

I forgot about this thread for 2 days because I was busy keeping track of the Kardashians. Literally Putin over here.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I forgot about this thread for 2 days because I was busy keeping track of the Kardashians. Literally Putin over here.

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Putin is now a grammatical term?

Have you decided how to conjugate it yet?

Russia's president just PUTINED the US president... Did I do it right?

Is this what it means to get putined?

Attachment 12460

He keesed him like a keeten.

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Originally Posted by rvg

The problem is not Ukraine as much as the fact that you're likely to have to repeat the "We're not in much need of X" spiel many times over before the bear is satisfied. If the bear can be satisfied. Are you willing to bear that risk? I find it unbearable.

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I think there needn't have been this question in the first place if we'd been content with the rotating government which both sides were settling for before this current mess. Russia didn't try to topple the pro-western government Ukraine had before, or at least not before election time, and Yanukovich had been in power before. Change is for elections. Once elections are over, you're stuck with the government a majority of your countrymen voted for.

My current government wasn't voted in by a majority of voters, nor even a majority of constituencies, and I certainly didn't vote for them. But they got a plurality of seats, which gave them the greatest authority to form a government, and whatever my disagreements with them, more of my countrymen agreed with them than agreed with me. So I accept it, and wait for the next election. I don't throw a tantrum and demand their immediate exit.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

My current government wasn't voted in by a majority of voters, nor even a majority of constituencies, and I certainly didn't vote for them. But they got a plurality of seats, which gave them the greatest authority to form a government, and whatever my disagreements with them, more of my countrymen agreed with them than agreed with me. So I accept it, and wait for the next election. I don't throw a tantrum and demand their immediate exit.

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But what if you didn't? Would France come in and occupy Cornwall?

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Originally Posted by rvg

But what if you didn't? Would France come in and occupy Cornwall?

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If we were fool enough to undergo a revolution while a predatory neighbour was nearby, I shouldn't be surprised if said predatory neighbour lived up to their reputation. However, Britain has a tradition of stability and conservatism, and one that we're proud of. Through all the revolutions on the continent in the 18th and 19th centuries, we've kept our governmental processes with gradual adjustments here and there. Whatever fools we may have been, we've never been revolutionary fools.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

If we were fool enough to undergo a revolution while a predatory neighbour was nearby, I shouldn't be surprised if said predatory neighbour lived up to their reputation.

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So let's forget Ukraine for a moment. Would Britain be okay with sharing the neighborhood with a known predator?

Not keeping up with the times more like. Luddite. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

If we were fool enough to undergo a revolution while a predatory neighbour was nearby, I shouldn't be surprised if said predatory neighbour lived up to their reputation. However, Britain has a tradition of stability and conservatism, and one that we're proud of. Through all the revolutions on the continent in the 18th and 19th centuries, we've kept our governmental processes with gradual adjustments here and there. Whatever fools we may have been, we've never been revolutionary fools.

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Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.

This is the 21st Century, not the 19th.

Putin's language of £protecting ethnic Russians" is the reason given by Hitler for invading Czechoslovakia - he took the German bit first, then the rest.

Putin has troops in Crimea, NATO should be preparing to move troops into Western Ukraine - Ukraine's first president has already said Ukraine should join NATO ASAP, and once Crimea is annexed many more Ukrainians will feel that way. Georgia, likewise, will be looking nervously East.

Time to recognise history hasn't ended and to arm up. NATO doctrine should move to holding a Baltic-Romanian line, and matching Russia's land warfare capability.

War with Putin seems merely now to be a matter of time. I for one am going to start exercising more for the inevitable draft.

Last news are exremely worrying. 1 death during riots in Donetsk, a couple of hours ago two policemen were shot in a streetfight in the centre of Kharkiv. I really hope, none of the "Right sector" fighters decide to go East, probably armed and ready to "protect the protestors" there. Or they are even sent there: The new government has recently decided to create a new national guard out of the self-defence forces and other volunteers.
Or the Russians stage something; the mob which stormed the administration of Kharkiv Oblast and put a Russian flag ontop of the building came at least partially from Russia, as their busses' license plates proved.
It does not even have to be Moscow's will; a couple of days ago, a source (though one of mediocre reliability imo), reported the arrest of a known FSB agent carrying explosives and fuses. Have some hawkish agents taking action on their own - staging an anti-Russian terror attack - and an overzealous military commander at the border, and voila, you got a war.

If these guys clash with Titushki (thugs, employed by pro-Russian forces - a notorious example is the Oplot "civil organisation" in Kharkiv; if you google it, you will find a MMA-fighting club of that name - the shared name is no coincidence), then Russia has the civil unrest and bloodshed it needs to be "invited" also into Donetsk, Luhansk, or maybe even Kharkiv.
They could take Crimea by surprise, as movements for secession were expected, but not a blatant military invasion. However, if the Russians try to take the East as well, I don't doubt that there will be a full-scale war between Kyiv and Moscow, and nobody will be able to tell whether the Russian tanks stop at the borders of Donetsk Oblast, the Dnejpr or way behind Kyiv.

Sure, at this all is just speculation; but watch our for news from the Eastern Ukrainian cities. Kyiv might grudgingly accept the secession of Crimea, but it will not give up any Ukraine's major cities and integral parts of the country.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Trust in the master put you must. Not contradict the master you must. Bad padawan.

The source is of course in Russian, but that's your problem.
http://www.kprfkh.ru/index.php/254-c...6-1-tys-rublej

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Bad rvg! That's the website of Communist party of Russia. Are you getting information from pinko websites now? I didn't agree with you before but at least I respected you...

Kidding aside, the article doesn't say that. The article is about salaries of some managers and it also includes ministers. It lists the salaries of about 10 people in health and their salaries vary from 10,000$ to 1,000$ per month.

Also, it isn't about Russia, it's about Khakasia.
Attachment 12462

"Would Britain be okay with sharing the neighborhood with a known predator?" Do you mean, like Mexico does?:laugh4:

"Revolution is great if you're just trying to destabilize Russia's sphere of influence" Or US in South/Central America, as Venezuela is actually experiencing...

"Putin's language of £protecting ethnic Russians" is the reason given by Hitler for invading Czechoslovakia - he took the German bit first, then the rest." NATO attacked Serbia to protect Ethnic Albanian Minority, so NATO=Hitler=Putin?. Or just straw-man?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Putin's language of £protecting ethnic Russians" is the reason given by Hitler for invading Czechoslovakia - he took the German bit first, then the rest.

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Hitler also cited hunger as the reason he had breakfast in the morning.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Putin has troops in Crimea, NATO should be preparing to move troops into Western Ukraine

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To "protect ethnic Ukrainians"?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"Would Britain be okay with sharing the neighborhood with a known predator?" Do you mean, like Mexico does?

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:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.

This is the 21st Century, not the 19th.

Putin's language of £protecting ethnic Russians" is the reason given by Hitler for invading Czechoslovakia - he took the German bit first, then the rest.

Putin has troops in Crimea, NATO should be preparing to move troops into Western Ukraine - Ukraine's first president has already said Ukraine should join NATO ASAP, and once Crimea is annexed many more Ukrainians will feel that way. Georgia, likewise, will be looking nervously East.

Time to recognise history hasn't ended and to arm up. NATO doctrine should move to holding a Baltic-Romanian line, and matching Russia's land warfare capability.

War with Putin seems merely now to be a matter of time. I for one am going to start exercising more for the inevitable draft.

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I agree with you, why do you think I am an isolationist? Accession to NATO would stop Russian irredentism in it's tracks. If Russia attacks NATO ally, we would annihilate them. Ukraine qualifies as a nation that we have been interested bringing into the fold for many years, that means we believe there is a security interest there. Why are we prevaricating here?

I am in favor of moving F16s into Poland and a second CDG into the Black Sea, but this is not enough. We should be preparing to blockade St. Petersburg and Kalingrad if they attack further. We should be working to make the Russian Federation a pariah state.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

If Russia attacks NATO ally, we would annihilate them.

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Nuclear apocalypse, yay!
I can totally see how that would save Ukraine.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

We should be working to make the Russian Federation a pariah state.

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Your media is already tirelessly doing that job. They don't even attempt balanced reporting anymore.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Nuclear apocalypse, yay!
I can totally see how that would save Ukraine.



Your media is already tirelessly doing that job. They don't even attempt balanced reporting anymore.

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Why would conflict turn nuclear? Can't people decimate some military capacity without going nuclear?

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Why would conflict turn nuclear? Can't people decimate some military capacity without going nuclear?

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Balanced reporting? I've been watching balanced reporting. What is the imbalance that you speak of? Fox news is entertainment, not news. I do t get my news from TV. That is your first mistake.

Do you love RT or something? That is like Russian Fox News or MSNBC

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Balanced reporting? I've been watching balanced reporting. What is the imbalance that you speak of? Fox news is entertainment, not news. I do t get my news from TV. That is your first mistake.

Do you love RT or something? That is like Russian Fox News or MSNBC

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It's that they base every article the write on Russia being wrong and the revolution being a noble effort of the people. They downplay or ignore the neo nazis in government and automatically side with the West on the issue. If they are supposed to be neutral on internal affairs, why do they have to side with their government on external affairs automatically? They don't even give any good reasons, they just parrot what Merkel and Obama said.

Russia Today is the same on the other side of the issue. A balanced article would not see the strategic needs of Russia as unimportant while the strategic needs of the USA are the holy grail. Russia is not just Putin and he represents the people of Russia as much as Obama represents Americans. Fair and balanced (and I do not just mean Fox News) is about weighing both sides of an argument and giving both sides a chance. What the media does in this and most other s choose a side and then argue for that side. That's propaganda.

I have made the objective decision in my own understanding of events that Russian military involvement in Ukraine is not justified. If there were legitimate reports of Svoboda killing ethnic Russians, it might be called for, but until that time it is unreasonable. Annexing Crimea when 40% of the population is not Russian is not reasonable. Busing or encouraging provocateurs to cross the border and cause additional civil strife by attacking unarmed civilians is not reasonable.

Are people making legitimate allegations that the US and EU bused in protesters?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...3cicr91vY-IjMg

Vice is providing some great anecdotal experiences

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

I agree with you, why do you think I am an isolationist? Accession to NATO would stop Russian irredentism in it's tracks. If Russia attacks NATO ally, we would annihilate them. Ukraine qualifies as a nation that we have been interested bringing into the fold for many years, that means we believe there is a security interest there. Why are we prevaricating here?

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I'm guessing two reasons

1) Most of NATO doesn't wish it
2) Most of the Ukrainian population doesn't wish it

So, unless you apply an enormous amount of pressure on European NATO members it's not gonna happen. It must coincide with a very pro-western government (quite like this one) but if they try to do that officially, they'd have on their hands such a crisis that this Crimea thing would look like a small misunderstanding between friends. If they try to hold a referendum on NATO, it wouldn't pass.

And - before you say it - yes, even after this experience.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

I have made the objective decision in my own understanding of events that Russian military involvement in Ukraine is not justified. If there were legitimate reports of Svoboda killing ethnic Russians, it might be called for, but until that time it is unreasonable. Annexing Crimea when 40% of the population is not Russian is not reasonable. Busing or encouraging provocateurs to cross the border and cause additional civil strife by attacking unarmed civilians is not reasonable.

Are people making legitimate allegations that the US and EU bused in protesters?

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No, the US and EU financed the protesters. They bused in themselves.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I'm guessing two reasons

1) Most of NATO doesn't wish it
2) Most of the Ukrainian population doesn't wish it

So, unless you apply an enormous amount of pressure on European NATO members it's not gonna happen. It must coincide with a very pro-western government (quite like this one) but if they try to do that officially, they'd have on their hands such a crisis that this Crimea thing would look like a small misunderstanding between friends. If they try to hold a referendum on NATO, it wouldn't pass.

And - before you say it - yes, even after this experience.

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We will see. If Russia annexes Crimea, the likelihood of accession talks will probably increase. Former Yugoslav republics are next.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Also, it isn't about Russia, it's about Khakasia.
Attachment 12462

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Khakasia is Russia.

But there's more. So much more. Go ahead and dismiss it all as commie propaganda, padawan. Truly blind you are.
http://ura.ru/content/chel/20-02-201...036257620.html
http://primamedia.ru/news/health/10....olnitsu-v.html

Know shit padawan does not.
Know his shit the master does.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, corruption has permeated Russia to a degree unseen in most countries. The common folk are paying for that corruption.

Bad language, Yoda use would not.

To the Dark Side, these terms belong.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Are people making legitimate allegations that the US and EU bused in protesters?

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Just paid for them, as Sarmatian already said.
I actually agree that Russia is going a bit far but it's not something I'd start a war over.
If 40% of Scots do not want independence from GB, should NATO send troops to force them to stay?
I'm aware that the Crimean president is a Russian shill but that's not my problem. I don't think it is illegal to leave Russia if it's that bad.
Syrians also don't all like their president or the rebels and people actually die there. If we want to protect people from horrible things we could start there or in Africa. So far it hasn't worked too well anyway though. Usually a lot of people die and everybody is left with a sour taste while the next dictator rises to power.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Whether you wish to admit it or not, corruption has permeated Russia to a degree unseen in most countries. The common folk are paying for that corruption.

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After the 2008 crisis I'm not so sure anymore...

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Putin is now a grammatical term?

Have you decided how to conjugate it yet?

Russia's president just PUTINED the US president... Did I do it right?

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Ukraine has been severely putinized lately.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Change is for elections. Once elections are over, you're stuck with the government a majority of your countrymen voted for.

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Unless it loses the touch with reality and starts behaving Yanukovych style.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

If we were fool enough to undergo a revolution while a predatory neighbour was nearby, I shouldn't be surprised if said predatory neighbour lived up to their reputation.

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In the case of Ukraine the predatory neighbor is always there. When shall we then find time for a revoultion or two?

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Originally Posted by rvg

Khakasia is Russia.

But there's more. So much more. Go ahead and dismiss it all as commie propaganda, padawan. Truly blind you are.
http://ura.ru/content/chel/20-02-201...036257620.html
http://primamedia.ru/news/health/10....olnitsu-v.html

Know shit padawan does not.
Know his shit the master does.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, corruption has permeated Russia to a degree unseen in most countries. The common folk are paying for that corruption.

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Again??? Do I really have to go through with you what I've already went through with Gilrandir?

1) I never claimed that there is no corruption in Russia.

2) I called bollox on your statement that the average salary for a hospital administrator is 8000-12000$ per month

There are hundreds of thousands of hospitals in Russia and more than a million doctors. Statistics please, not individual examples, and quick, before I link to news articles about 5 Serbian billionares and claim it proves entire population is that rich.

And, btw, Khakasia is a part of Russia, not entire Russia. It's indicative of the entire Russia about as much as Monte Carlo is indicative of Europe (size comparison).

We're talking about Russian Federation. You know, the largest country on earth, can be found easily on most maps.

NATO has to attack to force the Ethnic Russians to stay in Ukraine against their will.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Unless it loses the touch with reality and starts behaving Yanukovych style.

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Not even then would I seek to overthrow the government before its time. I took pride in voting out the Tories in 1997. People organised themselves to more effectively vote out the Tory candidate, by voting for whichever Labour or LibDem candidate was most likely to beat the Tory. The supposedly natural party of government was reduced to its lowest number of seats in living memory. We threw out the party we saw as corrupt, through legitimate electoral process. And when we changed our mind over time, we voted them back in through legitimate electoral process. Well I didn't vote them in, but I accept that I'm part of the we, as the process was correctly followed and they ended up with the greatest right to form a government. Going by the polls, they'll be voted out in the next election, and that too will be correct. That's how democracy works.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

In the case of Ukraine the predatory neighbor is always there. When shall we then find time for a revoultion or two?

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Er, by the 19th century when revolutions were all the rage in continental Europe, we'd been at odds with France for nearly 800 years, while we'd been carrying on an on-off global struggle with them for 100 years with constant threats of invasion in either direction (there's a reason why Portsmouth is possibly the most heavily fortified area that size in the world). What was Ukraine's history 800 years ago? Hell, what was Ukraine's history 100 years ago?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

2) I called bollox on your statement that the average salary for a hospital administrator is 8000-12000$ per month

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You called bollox because you have no clue. I'm trying to give you a clue, but it seems all for naught.
Here's one more article, this time with national statistics. It's a comparison between US and Russian hospital staff salaries. The gist of it is that Russian hospital staff make a tiny fraction of money of their U.S. counterparts except (drumbeat!) general managers, who make about the same on both sides.

If this is not enough, then I'm washing my hand off you, padawan.

Some people here spoke of ideology as one of the main incentives (alongside money and power) to seek international domination. I thought I could inform you about some ideological background which is quite obvious for Ukraine-Russia relations in those countries but may not be so obvious to outsiders. Perhaps you would understand why 58% of Russians (according to the poll which claims to be objective, though it goes for all of them) support Putin in his attitude to Ukrainian crisis.
The traditional view (which is agressively propelled now) of Ukrainians in Russia is that they are not a people apart. Ukrainians, Russians and Belorussians have common (east) Slavic roots. They all come from Kyivan Rus which fell apart due to the lack of unity among contending princes but common people of it always felt united. Then Ukrainians and Belorussians were incorporated into Poland and Lithuania. Under those their language, traditions and faith have suffered and have been mauled and distorted. Thus Russians are the only successors of Kyivan Rus who kept the purity of (east) Slavs, their independence, language and orthodox faith intact. Moreover, it is a historic mission of Russia to deliver their long-sundered kindred from all kinds of oppression and even thraldom and bring them all to be united again. This deliverance movement has been termed "gathering of all Russian lands". Most Ukrainians crave for this reunification and there is no sensible reason why they shouldn't.
Many of those tenets could be called incorrect. In the times of Kyivan Rus there were no Russians or Ukrainians. Its territory was inhabited by a dozen tribes which only started to amalgamate when the state was divided into principalities. So this amalgamation was locally limited, there is no sense to claim that inhabitants of southern principalities (Kiyv, Pereyaslavl, Chernigov, Halych, Volyn), which now constitute Ukraine, formed a single people with citizens of Vladimir and Suzdal, now the core Russian lands. Moreover, the lands were Moscow is now situated were originally inhabited by Finno-Ugric tribes assimilated by Slavs pushing north (so much for Slavic purity). The very name "Rus" or "Russia" refered to what is now called Ukraine while modern Russia has always been called "Muscovy" until the reign of Peter I (1682-1725). So much for succession.
As a linguist I can say, that Ukrainian is closer than Russian in its vocabulary and phonetic structure to Old Russian. I can't deny a significant influence of Polish, yet many words which in Russian are obsolete or considered as belonging to Old Church Slavonic (as the only literary language of Eastern Slavs) are preserved in modern Ukrainian. I would say that under specific historic conditions Old Russian got stagnated in Ukraine (turning into modern Ukrainian) while it developed in Russia into modern Russian. The same, I believe, happened to Old Norse which "got stagnated" in Iceland (due to limited contacts with the continent) while on the continent it developed into modern Norwegian. Well, Hore Tore will correct me, if I'm wrong in that respect (I wonder how much mutually understandable Icalandic and Norwegian (in any of its forms) are). So much for Russian as a lingustic successor of the Old Russian.
I'm sorry for such a lengthy post, but I hope it will explain much of the popular sentiment in Russia today. History and tradition are much considered, discussed and referred to in Russia (as well as in Ukraine, I should say) while dealing with the Slavic neighbors.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Again??? Do I really have to go through with you what I've already went through with Gilrandir?

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How can you say that after all we have been through? ~:mecry:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

What was Ukraine's history 800 years ago? Hell, what was Ukraine's history 100 years ago?

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You can find that out yourself if you are really interested. Ukraine was there OK, but was divided and incorporated into empires. The absence of the independent state cannot undo centuries of history. Many countries lost and gained independence agian (Poland, Lithuania, Ireland, to name the few) but that didn't interrupt their history.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

You can find that out yourself if you are really interested. Ukraine was there OK, but was divided and incorporated into empires. The absence of the independent state cannot undo centuries of history. Many countries lost and gained independence agian (Poland, Lithuania, Ireland, to name the few) but that didn't interrupt their history.

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Did historical Ukraine circa 100 years ago include Crimea?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Did historical Ukraine circa 100 years ago include Crimea?

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Of course not. Does historical Poland ca 100 years ago include Breslau? Hell no. Does historical Russia ca 100 years ago include Koenigsberg? Nope. Revisionism is a dangerous path.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Of course not. Does historical Poland ca 100 years ago include Breslau? Hell no. Does historical Russia ca 100 years ago include Koenigsberg? Nope. Revisionism is a dangerous path.

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I demand a return of Jemtland and Herjedalen!!!

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Did historical Ukraine circa 100 years ago include Crimea?

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Crimea was "given" to Ukraine by Khruschev in 1954 - but not for naught. In exchange Ukraine "relinqushed" a densely populated (1.2 million people) strip of land to the east of modern Lugansk region (including the city of Taganrog). Since that time Crimea (which, as one of the then leaders of Ukrainian Communist Party admitted, presented a deplorable picture) had received its water canal system providing water from the Dnipro, electricity was provided from hydroelectric power plants on the said Dnipro and many other things to boot.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I demand a return of Jemtland and Herjedalen!!!

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And Vinland!

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Originally Posted by rvg

And Vinland!

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Keep it, I drink beer.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Crimea was "given" to Ukraine by Khruschev in 1954 - but not for naught. In exchange Ukraine "relinqushed" a densely populated (1.2 million people) strip of land to the east of modern Lugansk region (including the city of Taganrog). Since that time Crimea (which, as one of the then leaders of Ukrainian Communist Party admitted, presented a deplorable picture) had received its water canal system providing water from the Dnipro, electricity was provided from hydroelectric power plants on the said Dnipro and many other things to boot.

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So if the Ukrainisation of Crimea is a recent thing, and Crimea depends on Ukraine so much, should it not be a matter between Ukraine, Crimea and whoever else is interested, on how Crimea should be? Why should the EU get involved?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

So if the Ukrainisation of Crimea is a recent thing, and Crimea depends on Ukraine so much, should it not be a matter between Ukraine, Crimea and whoever else is interested, on how Crimea should be? Why should the EU get involved?

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Same reason why the EU intervened in Libya: it was the right thing to do.

Secession can only come from national referendum as per the law. Local referendums are allowed, but not on the union

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Originally Posted by rvg

Same reason why the EU intervened in Libya: it was the right thing to do.

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You mean it's claimed that it's the right thing to do.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Secession can only come from national referendum as per the law. Local referendums are allowed, but not on the union

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Tell that to the Scots. The pro-independence side have been banging the anti-English drum for all it's worth, and even a single comment by an Englishman (not even a vote), has them complaining about us sticking our noses where it doesn't belong.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Just paid for them, as Sarmatian already said.
I actually agree that Russia is going a bit far but it's not something I'd start a war over.
If 40% of Scots do not want independence from GB, should NATO send troops to force them to stay?
I'm aware that the Crimean president is a Russian shill but that's not my problem. I don't think it is illegal to leave Russia if it's that bad.
Syrians also don't all like their president or the rebels and people actually die there. If we want to protect people from horrible things we could start there or in Africa. So far it hasn't worked too well anyway though. Usually a lot of people die and everybody is left with a sour taste while the next dictator rises to power.



After the 2008 crisis I'm not so sure anymore...

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I am in favor of action in Syria. I am becoming more in favor of some military bolstering of Ukrainian forces by the day.

Regarding Scotland, they have a legal right to leave the Union. If their referendum allows it, they will become a sovereign country and this will be recognized by what's left of the UK. Crimea has no such legal right, neither do States in the United States. Should countries be able to declare independence? Maybe, but not with a simple majority. What about the 40% of people who will now be second class citizens?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...lghYs4Yz3q1IwA

This is important to watch. This isn't an independence movement, it is a creepy fascist annexation movement. The people currently supported by Russia in Crimea want to live under a dictatorship and an empire. They don't want to be free in any way. Everyone in the West should be alarmed by this.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

You mean it's claimed that it's the right thing to do.

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Claimed by most. Disputed by some. It would have been far easier to just let Muammar crush the rebels and get things back to how they used to be. Not sure it would have been the right thing to do though.

Watch the video;: Err, what is your point?

"What about the 40% of people who will now be second class citizens?" Didn't bother the US and EU in Kosovo.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Watch the video;: Err, what is your point?

"What about the 40% of people who will now be second class citizens?" Didn't bother the US and EU in Kosovo.

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These people are using hypernationalistic violence against unarmed citizens. This is different from Kiev. In Kiev citizens used violence against the armed and oppressive state. Do you see the difference?

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Originally Posted by rvg

You called bollox because you have no clue. I'm trying to give you a clue, but it seems all for naught.
Here's one more article, this time with national statistics. It's a comparison between US and Russian hospital staff salaries. The gist of it is that Russian hospital staff make a tiny fraction of money of their U.S. counterparts except (drumbeat!) general managers, who make about the same on both sides.

If this is not enough, then I'm washing my hand off you, padawan.

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Unfortunately, dear friend, this article doesn't mention hospital administrators anywhere. It says that the salaries of general managers or CEO's are comparable (CEO's of Exxon and Gazprom have comparable salaries, that sort of thing) while there a big difference in salaries of American and Russian doctors and medical staff.

Third strike, you're out.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Unfortunately, dear friend, this article doesn't mention hospital administrators anywhere. It says that the salaries of general managers or CEO's are comparable (CEO's of Exxon and Gazprom have comparable salaries, that sort of thing) while there a big difference in salaries of American and Russian doctors and medical staff.

Third strike, you're out.

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And who do you think I was talking about when I mentioned "government bureaucrats and upper management"? Believe what you wish, padawan. You have failed.

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Originally Posted by rvg

And who do you think I was talking about when I mentioned "government bureaucrats and upper management"? Believe what you wish, padawan. You have failed.

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Do I really need to quote what you said yesterday?

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Originally Posted by rvg

average monthly salary of a hospital administrator is between $8000-$12000

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...and now that you've shown you have no source whatsoever to back it up, you try to change your original statement so that you would appear correct? That's just rude...

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

...and now that you've shown you have no source whatsoever to back it up, you try to change your original statement so that you would appear correct? That's just rude...

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And who do you think the Hospital Administrator is? Somebody who administers the frigging hospital, i.e. the upper management, i.e. the general manager.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

These people are using hypernationalistic violence against unarmed citizens. This is different from Kiev. In Kiev citizens used violence against the armed and oppressive state. Do you see the difference?

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Did we find out in the end who it was that ordered their snipers to fire?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Did we find out in the end who it was that ordered their snipers to fire?

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For sure? No.

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Originally Posted by Methabaron

Congrats for the new site/forum !!!, old patrons start pouring in !!

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent...

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I have no idea. The snipers had a right to fire to protect others from bodily harm. Some police could have just had enough, independent of an order.

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Originally Posted by rvg

For sure? No.

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So we never bothered to follow up the suspicion that it was someone in the current Kiev government. In that light, ICantSpellDawg's explanation sounds remarkably like that in Blackadder Goes Forth.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

So we never bothered to follow up the suspicion that it was someone in the current Kiev government. In that light, ICantSpellDawg's explanation sounds remarkably like that in Blackadder Goes Forth.

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Ultimately what does it change? Snipers are men, they could have been a part of some grand conspiracy or one of them could have sneezed and accidentally pulled the trigger. We don't know. What we do know is that the people in Kiev had had enough of the corrupt government and that the Ukrainian president jumped ship.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

So we never bothered to follow up the suspicion that it was someone in the current Kiev government. In that light, ICantSpellDawg's explanation sounds remarkably like that in Blackadder Goes Forth.

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It could have been a conspiracy, I don't know what you are implying. I am regularly astounded that more guns don't go off when governments and legal systems collapse.

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Originally Posted by rvg

And who do you think the Hospital Administrator is? Somebody who administers the frigging hospital, i.e. the upper management, i.e. the general manager.

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You're projecting your idea of how hospital work in the USA and assume it's the same way in Russia. Russia inherited the health system of the Soviet Union in which all the hospitals were owned and directed by the state. They were (and 99,9% still are) considered a public institution which don't operate (pun not intended) on a budget or answer to investors and shareholders, but were/are allocated funds according to their need. Hospital administrators are basically head doctors with slightly more paperwork. They deal with requesting what they need from the Ministry of Health, make some organizational decisions here and there but they're basically doctors with some extra duty, contrary to the American system where quite a few of hospital administrators aren't even doctors by trade and they deal mostly with keeping the hospital within the budget and deal with the public and investors.

So, saying that hospital administrators in Russia are upper management is like saying school principals in Russia are upper management.

Another huge mistake on your part is that most of the CEO's with huge salaries are privately owned, and just how high a salary a privately owned business decides to give to its upper management is their decision and it's not corruption.


So, if you you didn't mean hospital administrators but upper management in general you chose a bad example to prove your point.

There's widespread corruption in Russia.
Average salary of a nurse - 600$
Average salary of a doctor - 1000$
Average salary of a CEO's of Coca Cola Russia and Gazprom - 12000$

That's quite nonsensical. So, you have a choice of being wrong or being silly. Personally, I'd go for wrong, but whatever you think is best.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

You're projecting your idea of how hospital work in the USA and assume it's the same way in Russia. Russia inherited the health system of the Soviet Union in which all the hospitals were owned and directed by the state. They were (and 99,9% still are) considered a public institution which don't operate (pun not intended) on a budget or answer to investors and shareholders, but were/are allocated funds according to their need. Hospital administrators are basically head doctors with slightly more paperwork. They deal with requesting what they need from the Ministry of Health, make some organizational decisions here and there but they're basically doctors with some extra duty, contrary to the American system where quite a few of hospital administrators aren't even doctors by trade and they deal mostly with keeping the hospital within the budget and deal with the public and investors.

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Actually, over 80% of all U.S. hospitals are public non-profit organizations. What's happening is that you are projecting what you think the U.S. health system is like and obviously making wrong conclusions because you don't have a clue about what the U.S. health system is like.

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So, saying that hospital administrators in Russia are upper management is like saying school principals in Russia are upper management.

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Of course they are upper management, and they are paid like the upper management.

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Another huge mistake on your part is that most of the CEO's with huge salaries are privately owned, and just how high a salary a privately owned business decides to give to its upper management is their decision and it's not corruption.

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I'm not talking about CEO's of multibillion dollar corporations. I'm talking about the people who are heads of hospitals. Call them general managers, hospital administrators, whatever. Them.

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So, if you you didn't mean hospital administrators but upper management in general you chose a bad example to prove your point.

There's widespread corruption in Russia.
Average salary of a nurse - 600$
Average salary of a doctor - 1000$
Average salary of a CEO's of Coca Cola Russia and Gazprom - 12000$

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and also... Average salary of a guy who heads a hospital - 12000$

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That's quite nonsensical. So, you have a choice of being wrong or being silly. Personally, I'd go for wrong, but whatever you think is best.

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Oh, you are wrong, there's no doubt about that.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Ultimately what does it change? Snipers are men, they could have been a part of some grand conspiracy or one of them could have sneezed and accidentally pulled the trigger. We don't know. What we do know is that the people in Kiev had had enough of the corrupt government and that the Ukrainian president jumped ship.

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People like ICanSpellDawg (and PVC, among others) are telling us we're right to intervene because the Yanukovich-led state was oppressing the people with arms. If it turns out the state that's been oppressing the people with said arms is part of the government we're being asked to back, how sound is that justification? Why does it not matter?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

People like ICanSpellDawg (and PVC, among others) are telling us we're right to intervene because the Yanukovich-led state was oppressing the people with arms. If it turns out the state that's been oppressing the people with said arms is part of the government we're being asked to back, how sound is that justification? Why does it not matter?

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Oh, I don't know, because Russia is stealing land?

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Originally Posted by rvg

Oh, I don't know, because Russia is stealing land?

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Let's see how it turns out then. The Crimean referendum is supposed to be happening tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Let's see how it turns out then. The Crimean referendum is supposed to be happening tomorrow.

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Wiser words could not be said. Let's wait 24 hours and find out.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Actually, over 80% of all U.S. hospitals are public non-profit organizations. What's happening is that you are projecting what you think the U.S. health system is like and obviously making wrong conclusions because you don't have a clue about what the U.S. health system is like.

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No, I pretty much don't and I thank you for the correction. See how easy it is? Now you try it. If you don't like it, you don't have to do it again.

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Of course they are upper management, and they are paid like the upper management.

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Ok, so now, in addition to hospital administrators, school principals are upper management and paid like upper management, between 8000-12000$??? :dizzy2:

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I'm not talking about CEO's of multibillion dollar corporations. I'm talking about the people who are heads of hospitals. Call them general managers, hospital administrators, whatever. Them.

and also... Average salary of a guy who heads a hospital - 12000$

Oh, you are wrong, there's no doubt about that.

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Then you still haven't provided a source for you claim, since the comparison in your last link included CEO's of multi-million dollar companies.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Ok, so now, in addition to hospital administrators, school principals are upper management and paid like upper management, between 8000-12000$???

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Hospital admins are upper management, as for school principals, their salaries vary quite a bit from $1500 to $8000 and more. Depends on how rich their school district is.

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Then you still haven't provided a source for you claim, since the comparison in your last link included CEO's of multi-million dollar companies.

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This is not true. Perhaps something got lost in translation of your part, but my last link deals specifically with the headofhospital guys.

I don't think there is enough money left for hospital managers:

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-.../25132471.html

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The annual global wealth study published by the financial services group Credit Suisse says a mere 110 Russian citizens now control 35 percent of the total household wealth across the vast country.

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The Swiss have to know, they probably keep all their blood diamonds and nazi gold safe. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by rvg

Hospital admins are upper management, as for school principals, their salaries vary quite a bit from $1500 to $8000 and more. Depends on how rich their school district is.


This is not true. Perhaps something got lost in translation of your part, but my last link deals specifically with the headofhospital guys.

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No. The link analyzes Forbes list of highest paid position within the US on which doctors dominate and CEO's and general managers of various companies are placed 9th or 8th, I can't remember. Then it compares it to the situation in Russia and findd that CEO's and managers in Russia have similar salaries as their American counterparts while doctors have much lower salaries than their American counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I don't think there is enough money left for hospital managers:

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-.../25132471.html

The Swiss have to know, they probably keep all their blood diamonds and nazi gold safe. :sweatdrop:

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Interesting. That would make Russia worse than USA (and practically all other countries) in income (in)equality.
Gini index, according to the CIA research for 2013, still places Russia as better than USA and slightly above average.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

No. The link analyzes Forbes list of highest paid position within the US on which doctors dominate and CEO's and general managers of various companies are placed 9th or 8th, I can't remember. Then it compares it to the situation in Russia and findd that CEO's and managers in Russia have similar salaries as their American counterparts while doctors have much lower salaries than their American counterparts.

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We've been over this already. Just about any government bureaucrat or upper manager in Russia is swimming in money.

http://www.payscale.com/research/RU/...=Russia/Salary

http://www.aebrus.ru/upload/iblock/c...fd68ad32d6.pdf

The pdf seems especially interesting if one is to draw any conclusions. I don't have the time to take a detailed look or even convert it into Dollars, but maybe you'd like to base this debate on some actual numbers by trustworthy western companies.

Edit: Page 23 may be interesting.