Ukraine-in-a-thread

[ICantSpellDawg]

Secession can only come from national referendum as per the law. Local referendums are allowed, but not on the union

[Pannonian]

Same reason why the EU intervened in Libya: it was the right thing to do.

You mean it's claimed that it's the right thing to do.

[Pannonian]

Secession can only come from national referendum as per the law. Local referendums are allowed, but not on the union

Tell that to the Scots. The pro-independence side have been banging the anti-English drum for all it's worth, and even a single comment by an Englishman (not even a vote), has them complaining about us sticking our noses where it doesn't belong.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Just paid for them, as Sarmatian already said.
I actually agree that Russia is going a bit far but it's not something I'd start a war over.
If 40% of Scots do not want independence from GB, should NATO send troops to force them to stay?
I'm aware that the Crimean president is a Russian shill but that's not my problem. I don't think it is illegal to leave Russia if it's that bad.
Syrians also don't all like their president or the rebels and people actually die there. If we want to protect people from horrible things we could start there or in Africa. So far it hasn't worked too well anyway though. Usually a lot of people die and everybody is left with a sour taste while the next dictator rises to power.



After the 2008 crisis I'm not so sure anymore...

I am in favor of action in Syria. I am becoming more in favor of some military bolstering of Ukrainian forces by the day.

Regarding Scotland, they have a legal right to leave the Union. If their referendum allows it, they will become a sovereign country and this will be recognized by what's left of the UK. Crimea has no such legal right, neither do States in the United States. Should countries be able to declare independence? Maybe, but not with a simple majority. What about the 40% of people who will now be second class citizens?

[ICantSpellDawg]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...lghYs4Yz3q1IwA

This is important to watch. This isn't an independence movement, it is a creepy fascist annexation movement. The people currently supported by Russia in Crimea want to live under a dictatorship and an empire. They don't want to be free in any way. Everyone in the West should be alarmed by this.

[rvg]

You mean it's claimed that it's the right thing to do.

Claimed by most. Disputed by some. It would have been far easier to just let Muammar crush the rebels and get things back to how they used to be. Not sure it would have been the right thing to do though.

[Brenus]

Watch the video;: Err, what is your point?

"What about the 40% of people who will now be second class citizens?" Didn't bother the US and EU in Kosovo.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Watch the video;: Err, what is your point?

"What about the 40% of people who will now be second class citizens?" Didn't bother the US and EU in Kosovo.

These people are using hypernationalistic violence against unarmed citizens. This is different from Kiev. In Kiev citizens used violence against the armed and oppressive state. Do you see the difference?

[Sarmatian]

You called bollox because you have no clue. I'm trying to give you a clue, but it seems all for naught.
Here's one more article, this time with national statistics. It's a comparison between US and Russian hospital staff salaries. The gist of it is that Russian hospital staff make a tiny fraction of money of their U.S. counterparts except (drumbeat!) general managers, who make about the same on both sides.

If this is not enough, then I'm washing my hand off you, padawan.

Unfortunately, dear friend, this article doesn't mention hospital administrators anywhere. It says that the salaries of general managers or CEO's are comparable (CEO's of Exxon and Gazprom have comparable salaries, that sort of thing) while there a big difference in salaries of American and Russian doctors and medical staff.

Third strike, you're out.

[rvg]

Unfortunately, dear friend, this article doesn't mention hospital administrators anywhere. It says that the salaries of general managers or CEO's are comparable (CEO's of Exxon and Gazprom have comparable salaries, that sort of thing) while there a big difference in salaries of American and Russian doctors and medical staff.

Third strike, you're out.

And who do you think I was talking about when I mentioned "government bureaucrats and upper management"? Believe what you wish, padawan. You have failed.

[Sarmatian]

And who do you think I was talking about when I mentioned "government bureaucrats and upper management"? Believe what you wish, padawan. You have failed.

Do I really need to quote what you said yesterday?

average monthly salary of a hospital administrator is between $8000-$12000

...and now that you've shown you have no source whatsoever to back it up, you try to change your original statement so that you would appear correct? That's just rude...

[rvg]

...and now that you've shown you have no source whatsoever to back it up, you try to change your original statement so that you would appear correct? That's just rude...

And who do you think the Hospital Administrator is? Somebody who administers the frigging hospital, i.e. the upper management, i.e. the general manager.

[Pannonian]

These people are using hypernationalistic violence against unarmed citizens. This is different from Kiev. In Kiev citizens used violence against the armed and oppressive state. Do you see the difference?

Did we find out in the end who it was that ordered their snipers to fire?

[rvg]

Did we find out in the end who it was that ordered their snipers to fire?

For sure? No.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Congrats for the new site/forum !!!, old patrons start pouring in !!

Metha

------------------
"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent...

I have no idea. The snipers had a right to fire to protect others from bodily harm. Some police could have just had enough, independent of an order.

[Pannonian]

For sure? No.

So we never bothered to follow up the suspicion that it was someone in the current Kiev government. In that light, ICantSpellDawg's explanation sounds remarkably like that in Blackadder Goes Forth.

[rvg]

So we never bothered to follow up the suspicion that it was someone in the current Kiev government. In that light, ICantSpellDawg's explanation sounds remarkably like that in Blackadder Goes Forth.

Ultimately what does it change? Snipers are men, they could have been a part of some grand conspiracy or one of them could have sneezed and accidentally pulled the trigger. We don't know. What we do know is that the people in Kiev had had enough of the corrupt government and that the Ukrainian president jumped ship.

[ICantSpellDawg]

So we never bothered to follow up the suspicion that it was someone in the current Kiev government. In that light, ICantSpellDawg's explanation sounds remarkably like that in Blackadder Goes Forth.

It could have been a conspiracy, I don't know what you are implying. I am regularly astounded that more guns don't go off when governments and legal systems collapse.

[Sarmatian]

And who do you think the Hospital Administrator is? Somebody who administers the frigging hospital, i.e. the upper management, i.e. the general manager.

You're projecting your idea of how hospital work in the USA and assume it's the same way in Russia. Russia inherited the health system of the Soviet Union in which all the hospitals were owned and directed by the state. They were (and 99,9% still are) considered a public institution which don't operate (pun not intended) on a budget or answer to investors and shareholders, but were/are allocated funds according to their need. Hospital administrators are basically head doctors with slightly more paperwork. They deal with requesting what they need from the Ministry of Health, make some organizational decisions here and there but they're basically doctors with some extra duty, contrary to the American system where quite a few of hospital administrators aren't even doctors by trade and they deal mostly with keeping the hospital within the budget and deal with the public and investors.

So, saying that hospital administrators in Russia are upper management is like saying school principals in Russia are upper management.

Another huge mistake on your part is that most of the CEO's with huge salaries are privately owned, and just how high a salary a privately owned business decides to give to its upper management is their decision and it's not corruption.


So, if you you didn't mean hospital administrators but upper management in general you chose a bad example to prove your point.

There's widespread corruption in Russia.
Average salary of a nurse - 600$
Average salary of a doctor - 1000$
Average salary of a CEO's of Coca Cola Russia and Gazprom - 12000$

That's quite nonsensical. So, you have a choice of being wrong or being silly. Personally, I'd go for wrong, but whatever you think is best.

[rvg]

You're projecting your idea of how hospital work in the USA and assume it's the same way in Russia. Russia inherited the health system of the Soviet Union in which all the hospitals were owned and directed by the state. They were (and 99,9% still are) considered a public institution which don't operate (pun not intended) on a budget or answer to investors and shareholders, but were/are allocated funds according to their need. Hospital administrators are basically head doctors with slightly more paperwork. They deal with requesting what they need from the Ministry of Health, make some organizational decisions here and there but they're basically doctors with some extra duty, contrary to the American system where quite a few of hospital administrators aren't even doctors by trade and they deal mostly with keeping the hospital within the budget and deal with the public and investors.

Actually, over 80% of all U.S. hospitals are public non-profit organizations. What's happening is that you are projecting what you think the U.S. health system is like and obviously making wrong conclusions because you don't have a clue about what the U.S. health system is like.

So, saying that hospital administrators in Russia are upper management is like saying school principals in Russia are upper management.

Of course they are upper management, and they are paid like the upper management.

Another huge mistake on your part is that most of the CEO's with huge salaries are privately owned, and just how high a salary a privately owned business decides to give to its upper management is their decision and it's not corruption.

I'm not talking about CEO's of multibillion dollar corporations. I'm talking about the people who are heads of hospitals. Call them general managers, hospital administrators, whatever. Them.

So, if you you didn't mean hospital administrators but upper management in general you chose a bad example to prove your point.

There's widespread corruption in Russia.
Average salary of a nurse - 600$
Average salary of a doctor - 1000$
Average salary of a CEO's of Coca Cola Russia and Gazprom - 12000$

and also... Average salary of a guy who heads a hospital - 12000$

That's quite nonsensical. So, you have a choice of being wrong or being silly. Personally, I'd go for wrong, but whatever you think is best.

Oh, you are wrong, there's no doubt about that.

[Pannonian]

Ultimately what does it change? Snipers are men, they could have been a part of some grand conspiracy or one of them could have sneezed and accidentally pulled the trigger. We don't know. What we do know is that the people in Kiev had had enough of the corrupt government and that the Ukrainian president jumped ship.

People like ICanSpellDawg (and PVC, among others) are telling us we're right to intervene because the Yanukovich-led state was oppressing the people with arms. If it turns out the state that's been oppressing the people with said arms is part of the government we're being asked to back, how sound is that justification? Why does it not matter?

[rvg]

People like ICanSpellDawg (and PVC, among others) are telling us we're right to intervene because the Yanukovich-led state was oppressing the people with arms. If it turns out the state that's been oppressing the people with said arms is part of the government we're being asked to back, how sound is that justification? Why does it not matter?

Oh, I don't know, because Russia is stealing land?

[Pannonian]

Oh, I don't know, because Russia is stealing land?

Let's see how it turns out then. The Crimean referendum is supposed to be happening tomorrow.

[rvg]

Let's see how it turns out then. The Crimean referendum is supposed to be happening tomorrow.

Wiser words could not be said. Let's wait 24 hours and find out.

[Sarmatian]

Actually, over 80% of all U.S. hospitals are public non-profit organizations. What's happening is that you are projecting what you think the U.S. health system is like and obviously making wrong conclusions because you don't have a clue about what the U.S. health system is like.

No, I pretty much don't and I thank you for the correction. See how easy it is? Now you try it. If you don't like it, you don't have to do it again.

Of course they are upper management, and they are paid like the upper management.

Ok, so now, in addition to hospital administrators, school principals are upper management and paid like upper management, between 8000-12000$???

I'm not talking about CEO's of multibillion dollar corporations. I'm talking about the people who are heads of hospitals. Call them general managers, hospital administrators, whatever. Them.

and also... Average salary of a guy who heads a hospital - 12000$

Oh, you are wrong, there's no doubt about that.

Then you still haven't provided a source for you claim, since the comparison in your last link included CEO's of multi-million dollar companies.

[rvg]

Ok, so now, in addition to hospital administrators, school principals are upper management and paid like upper management, between 8000-12000$???

Hospital admins are upper management, as for school principals, their salaries vary quite a bit from $1500 to $8000 and more. Depends on how rich their school district is.

Then you still haven't provided a source for you claim, since the comparison in your last link included CEO's of multi-million dollar companies.

This is not true. Perhaps something got lost in translation of your part, but my last link deals specifically with the headofhospital guys.

[Husar]

I don't think there is enough money left for hospital managers:

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-.../25132471.html

The annual global wealth study published by the financial services group Credit Suisse says a mere 110 Russian citizens now control 35 percent of the total household wealth across the vast country.

The Swiss have to know, they probably keep all their blood diamonds and nazi gold safe.

[Sarmatian]

Hospital admins are upper management, as for school principals, their salaries vary quite a bit from $1500 to $8000 and more. Depends on how rich their school district is.


This is not true. Perhaps something got lost in translation of your part, but my last link deals specifically with the headofhospital guys.

No. The link analyzes Forbes list of highest paid position within the US on which doctors dominate and CEO's and general managers of various companies are placed 9th or 8th, I can't remember. Then it compares it to the situation in Russia and findd that CEO's and managers in Russia have similar salaries as their American counterparts while doctors have much lower salaries than their American counterparts.

I don't think there is enough money left for hospital managers:

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-.../25132471.html

The Swiss have to know, they probably keep all their blood diamonds and nazi gold safe.

Interesting. That would make Russia worse than USA (and practically all other countries) in income (in)equality.
Gini index, according to the CIA research for 2013, still places Russia as better than USA and slightly above average.

[rvg]

No. The link analyzes Forbes list of highest paid position within the US on which doctors dominate and CEO's and general managers of various companies are placed 9th or 8th, I can't remember. Then it compares it to the situation in Russia and findd that CEO's and managers in Russia have similar salaries as their American counterparts while doctors have much lower salaries than their American counterparts.

We've been over this already. Just about any government bureaucrat or upper manager in Russia is swimming in money.

[Husar]

http://www.payscale.com/research/RU/...=Russia/Salary

http://www.aebrus.ru/upload/iblock/c...fd68ad32d6.pdf

The pdf seems especially interesting if one is to draw any conclusions. I don't have the time to take a detailed look or even convert it into Dollars, but maybe you'd like to base this debate on some actual numbers by trustworthy western companies.

Edit: Page 23 may be interesting.