New factions?

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Since Diamond quite often cites the rapid expansion of the stone-age Polynesians, I am not sure.

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The Polynesians weren't an expansionist state. They were a group of people who were the first to populate a given area. That's like saying ice-age humans were expansionist because they populated the Americas.

We're talking about established, food producing states duking it out.

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

he said tribal
as for how they could be expansionistic: ever heard of the Zulu? It works the same way. its not a matter of weapons, but rather will.

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Actually much of Zulu success is due to military reforms in weaponry, including replacing the previously used unwieldy throwing spears with shorter stabbing spears and increasing the size of the shield. This gave them a huge advantage over neighboring tribes.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Danubius, welcome to the Org and EB ~:wave: .

A lot of your suggestions are good candidates, although you should keep in mind that EB does not add factions in order to balance others. There are better ways of doing that.

A few minor things: in EB's time, the Scyths were almost gone as a major power, superseded by the Sarmatians. They won't be making an appearance. Possible candidates in the area are the Bastarnae, the Bosporean Greek kingdom and the Celtic Lugians. I haven't heard the Tauriscii suggested yet: could you tell us a bit more about them?

As for the Cimbri and Teutones, they may have come as a surprise for the Romans, but that does not mean they came out of nowhere. It's going to be highly ahistorical if a Sweboz player is suddenly confronted with a horde that has spawned in his territory. There may be another German faction (although I think the chances of it are low), but they will be present at the start, as they were historically.

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First of all thank you for welcoming me ~:)

You are right, the scythians were not a major power in that time. A Bosphorean Kingdom would be nice, as those 2 cities in the Crimean Peninsula are always a powerhouse of income :applause:
The bastarnae are good candidates in my opinion. They were strong in their region, defeated the dacians in the east and it was very hard for the dacians to finally stop their expansion. They had a major impact in the area as it took hundreds of years for the native dacian population to assimilate them.

As for the tauriscii, they were a celtic tribe, most likely related to the boii and the scordiscii, that were neighbours of the dacians in the west. It's an interesting thing that we in Romania have the 2 words bou (pl. boi), meaning castrated bull and taur meaning bull. Also in old latin there are the forms of taurus and bovinae/bovis, so this has made many historians come to the conclusion that the boii and the tauriscii were closely related, and were maybe gives those names asociated with cattle because of their helmets being ornate with horns. The scordiscii were also closely related to the boii and tauriscii. They founded Singidunum (Belgrad) and had near another city named Taurunum (now part of Belgrad, but in the ancient and medieval period was a distinct city). Again the connection with cattle.
Historically, the boii, tauriscii and scordiscii formed a coalition most of the time against the dacians. They were highly influencial to my ancestors because it is believed they first introduced iron craftmanship and weapons to the dacians. They were only conquered by the getae-dacians when Burebista managed to unite most of the dacian and getae tribes, thus forming a strong army able to defeat the celts in the west.
This says much about these 3 celtic tribes and their importance and strenght in the region. Of course you can't have 3 small factions to represent them, so maybe the best is the boii since historically they were the strongest in the region (having branches of them migrating even to Italy and Gaul), but also with units representing the tauriscii and scordiscii.

And yes it might be a problem for the sweboz if the cimbrii and teutones invade later on from nowhere. I did not say they were a surprise for other germanic tribes, only for celts and romans. You could fix this problem by making the cimbrii and teutones faction already allied to the sweboz when they appear. This way they would avoid attacking the sweboz and migrate south to pick on the celts and romans. In MTW2 for example, if you manage to ally with the mongols or timurids shortly after they invade, most of the time they avoid you, pass trough your territory and then attack other factions.

And since we were talking about celts, how's about making a Helveti faction? :smash:~D

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Originally Posted by lobf

The Polynesians weren't an expansionist state. They were a group of people who were the first to populate a given area. That's like saying ice-age humans were expansionist because they populated the Americas.

We're talking about established, food producing states duking it out.

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You're absolutely right. I apparently wasn't quite awake yesterday evening.

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Originally Posted by Danubius

And yes it might be a problem for the sweboz if the cimbrii and teutones invade later on from nowhere. I did not say they were a surprise for other germanic tribes, only for celts and romans. You could fix this problem by making the cimbrii and teutones faction already allied to the sweboz when they appear. This way they would avoid attacking the sweboz and migrate south to pick on the celts and romans. In MTW2 for example, if you manage to ally with the mongols or timurids shortly after they invade, most of the time they avoid you, pass trough your territory and then attack other factions.

And since we were talking about celts, how's about making a Helveti faction? :smash:~D

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Interesting information about the Taurisci. However, the number of factions is limited, so it's going to be the Boii most likely. The Helvetii would IIRC be a part of the Alpine Boii confederacy. As for the Cimbri, why do you insist they must be emerging? Don't you think they were living somewhere and started moving because their neighbours or natural disasters displaced them?

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Interesting information about the Taurisci. However, the number of factions is limited, so it's going to be the Boii most likely. The Helvetii would IIRC be a part of the Alpine Boii confederacy. As for the Cimbri, why do you insist they must be emerging? Don't you think they were living somewhere and started moving because their neighbours or natural disasters displaced them?

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Yes what you say is true. The only problem is we don't know where exactly the cimbrii, teutones and the smaller tribe of the ambrones, the 3 main tribes that migrated, were originally located. Sources say in Jutland, but it has not been determined exactly and cannot be determined exactly. We must also take into consideration a problem, these tribes made a massive migration for that period, fighting celts (boii, arveni) alpine populations of mixed origins, and of course romans. Now we know that the Jutland peninsula in that period could not support a population that could muster an army wich would later defeat arveni or romans, who could muster a bigger army than 3 tribes originating in Jutland. So most likely these 3 tribes were joined by other tribes of celts and germanics on their way to Italy. Even if they had the whole population on the move, it's very hard to replenish casualties sustained in the several years in wich the migration took place.
That's why I think they should emerge as strong hordes, because if they start from the beginning, they will most likely be weak, unless the script is changed so that their faction starts with an advantage. But this would be unhistorical, since they did not have an advantage upon any of their neighbouring tribes in 270 BC.

Also I have a question :juggle2:
If the boii are to be eventually added as a faction in EB II, will they have horned symbols on their shields and maybe their elite units horned helmets? Of course not hollywood style horned helmets, but something like this (although it was found in Britain, I'm sure it was not something spontaneous there):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ish-Museum.jpg
Because it's clear they had a bull symbol, hence the names related to the bull, if we are to consider that their name derives from bull (as ther are also other theories regarding their name).

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

anyways: what hax meant was that the soldier's from that time and place lacked the quality in weaponry that their neighbors had-so their spears when compared to the models used by their neighbors (ptolemioi, saba, AS), were nothing but "sticks".

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This statement is completely unfounded. Would you like to provide some sources attesting to the lack in quality of Meroitic arms at this time?

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Originally Posted by Oh, some nameless kid. Who cares?

But this would be unhistorical, since they did not have an advantage upon any of their neighbouring tribes in 270 BC.

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Then why include them? IIRC, EB portrays factions that were important at the game's start date. From that point on, history is in the hands of the player.

Besides, the EB Team seemingly avoids emerging factions...

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Originally Posted by MP

This statement is completely unfounded. Would you like to provide some sources attesting to the lack in quality of Meroitic arms at this time?

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Heh heh. You just backed Ibrahim into a corner with a knife at his throat... :clown:

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Originally Posted by Methuselah

Besides, the EB Team seemingly avoids emerging factions...

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Because it would be a pain to rampage through Italy as Carthage only to have 3 army stacks of Romans to appear after taking their last city.

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Originally Posted by Danubius

Yes what you say is true. The only problem is we don't know where exactly the cimbrii, teutones and the smaller tribe of the ambrones, the 3 main tribes that migrated, were originally located. Sources say in Jutland, but it has not been determined exactly and cannot be determined exactly. We must also take into consideration a problem, these tribes made a massive migration for that period, fighting celts (boii, arveni) alpine populations of mixed origins, and of course romans. Now we know that the Jutland peninsula in that period could not support a population that could muster an army wich would later defeat arveni or romans, who could muster a bigger army than 3 tribes originating in Jutland. So most likely these 3 tribes were joined by other tribes of celts and germanics on their way to Italy. Even if they had the whole population on the move, it's very hard to replenish casualties sustained in the several years in wich the migration took place.
That's why I think they should emerge as strong hordes, because if they start from the beginning, they will most likely be weak, unless the script is changed so that their faction starts with an advantage. But this would be unhistorical, since they did not have an advantage upon any of their neighbouring tribes in 270 BC.

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You are not exactly helping your case here: if we don't know where they lived, then where should the horde spawn? Or if they were so weak, how did they become so strong? The answer is they weren't, really. It was mostly sheer numbers that made other tribes let them through. A displaced population per definition mobilizes 100% of its fighting-age males, and although these mostly won't be very good, they will fight hard because they are desperate. Yes, they gave the Romans a scare, but this was mostly due to incompetent Roman leadership, and the resultant string of defeats destroyed Roman morale. It actually took only two successful battles by a good Roman general to disperse them.

This discussion is pretty pointless anyway, as the EB team has already stated that absolutely zero (0) emergent factions will appear in EB2.

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Originally Posted by ACIN

Because it would be a pain to rampage through Italy as Carthage only to have 3 army stacks of Romans to appear after taking their last city.

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I didn't meant to appear as if I support emerging factions, so stop dropping insulting hints on me. :clown:

Besides, that situation is a horde, not an emergent faction. Get your facts straightened out, ACIN.

Emerging/reemerging factions require the horde option. That said, just because you have an emerging faction doesn't mean that you need all factions to horde.

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Originally Posted by Hax View Post
Yup. It would be mostly tribal African warriors with sticks and some swords, though if they could get access to Red Sea Hoplites, it would be very yummy. However, it wouldn't work anyway. The only room for expansion would be north, and to attack the Ptolemies turn 1 would be..suicidal.

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Lol at the sticks...
dude use some history ...
sticks = spears
swords= ........ swords ?
hahahahah muahahahha

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dude use some history ...

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Yes.

"Use" some history.

Also;

stick:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_ho...es/StickI9.jpg

Spear;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.kingofswords.com/images/r....jpg&width=300

Dude, "use" some typing lessons.

Pwned

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Originally Posted by Methuselah

Then why include them? IIRC, EB portrays factions that were important at the game's start date. From that point on, history is in the hands of the player.

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Well, then why did the sweboz made it in before Pergamon? I think gameplay reasons play nevertheless a decent role...

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Originally Posted by Hax

Yes.

"Use" some history.

Also;

stick:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_ho...es/StickI9.jpg

Spear;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.kingofswords.com/images/r....jpg&width=300

Dude, "use" some typing lessons.

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You're not still standing behind your (at least partially) racist assessment of "tribal" Africans from Ethiopia, are you?

Au Wikipedia;

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Other historians believe it was the attraction of iron working that drove the Kushites to move their capital south to Meroë, unlike Napata, there were large forests that could fire the blast furnaces. The arrival of Greek merchants throughout the region also meant that Kush was no longer dependent on trade along the Nile. Instead, it could export its goods to the Red Sea and the Greek trading colonies there.

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They also fought wars against the Romans and won some battles. How could they have done that if they'd had sticks?

I've checked this thread searching for EBII factions list somewhere, but found none. No such thing was also in a FAQ, so I'll propose some factions although I'm sure they were most likely mentioned by someone before:

Numidians - they've played an active role during the Punic wars and in Carthie African situation, also Africa is more or less empty, so it could make things more interesting there.

Thracians - I know that after Lysimachos defeat they weren't much of a force, but I think adding them may lead to some new interesting options in that region. Btw, Getae were also not a single entity, yet they are in game and uniting the tribes is one of their campaign objectives, for Thracians that could be making Lysimachus dreams come true :)

Pergamon - I'm nearly sure, someone had mentioned it, but it's a pity they were omitted in EB I, the only counter argument is that they will make an already overcrowded Asia Minor hard as hell to play for minor factions.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Ulpius

Pergamon - I'm nearly sure, someone had mentioned it, but it's a pity they were omitted in EB I, the only counter argument is that they will make an already overcrowded Asia Minor hard as hell to play for minor factions.

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Hooooo boy! You're in for a treat! :clown:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103202

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Originally Posted by Marcus Ulpius

Thracians - I know that after Lysimachos defeat they weren't much of a force, but I think adding them may lead to some new interesting options in that region. Btw, Getae were also not a single entity, yet they are in game and uniting the tribes is one of their campaign objectives, for Thracians that could be making Lysimachus dreams come true :)

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Ahem. The Getae were Thracians...

Now if you were to suggest a different Thracian tribe, say the Odrysai, now that would be something different.

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You're not still standing behind your (at least partially) racist assessment of "tribal" Africans from Ethiopia, are you?

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Racist? Yeah, man. Whatever.

Anyway, I apologize for my quick reaction concerning the Kushites. They were clearly not as underdeveloped as I might have originally thought.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Racist? Yeah, man. Whatever.

Anyway, I apologize for my quick reaction concerning the Kushites. They were clearly not as underdeveloped as I might have originally thought.

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Well, it's a simplistic, stereotypical view. You wouldn't assume even the least developed European culture used sticks at that time, but for a little-understood African nation you were comfortable with that same assumption.

I know that putting it like this only puts you on the defensive, so I'm sorry. It's really not personal. I just try to point out inconsistencies in people's logic whenever I can.

See? If we look hard enough, we'll find some common ground. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Methuselah

Hooooo boy! You're in for a treat! :clown:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103202

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Thanks for the link. Good to see they'll be there.

No problemo, Ulpsie. :2thumbsup:

I think along with Pergamon, there will be a faction slot for the Boii to curb middle Europe expansion by the Getai and Sweboz. Also, a numidian faction of some kind so Carthage does not get super powerful by 250 by taking all of Western Norther Africa. Other then that, I have no clue who else would go in. These two factions however I am sure will be in, not for historical accuracy but for the game balance needed that these two would bring to their respective regions.

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Originally Posted by ACIN

I think along with Pergamon, there will be a faction slot for the Boii to curb middle Europe expansion by the Getai and Sweboz. Also, a numidian faction of some kind so Carthage does not get super powerful by 250 by taking all of Western Norther Africa. Other then that, I have no clue who else would go in. These two factions however I am sure will be in, not for historical accuracy but for the game balance needed that these two would bring to their respective regions.

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Yeah, those are all the possible factions I could imagine, too. I wonder what the EB Team has in store for us...

muaaahahahahaha

edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.

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Originally Posted by paullus

muaaahahahahaha

edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.

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Excellent work on the Han & Qin unit rosters btw paullus.

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Originally Posted by paullus

muaaahahahahaha

edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.

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Excellent. I need another history fix soon; if I get cold turkey I end up turning to philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Krusader

Excellent work on the Han & Qin unit rosters btw paullus.

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:smash:

I hope its not more spamming, Methuselah...

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

there will be a faction slot for the Boii to curb middle Europe expansion by the Getai and Sweboz. .

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That's a fine idea, and I heartily support it, however, how much do we know about the Boii? The EB team would have tough time developing them.

As for Pergamon, am I the only one who does not look too favorably upon their new status as an EB II faction? I mean, they were just one among the thousands of Greek colonies.

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Originally Posted by paullus

muaaahahahahaha

edit: i'm well aware this post is spam-like and borderline antagonistic. i'll redeem it by saying that work on a couple of our new factions has been progressing nicely, though not yet to the point we'd really have anything preview-worthy.

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If it wasn't for your edit, I would have condemned you for wanton cruelty and needless spam. However, I like the fact that you decided to give us some top secret information. It fills my conceit knowing that my glory is so great as to drive EB members into loosening their tongues.

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Originally Posted by AP

As for Pergamon, am I the only one who does not look too favorably upon their new status as an EB II faction? I mean, they were just one among the thousands of Greek colonies.

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You may well be right, but they were one of the better ones. They did, after all, beat back the Seleucids, eh? Eh?!

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Originally Posted by Methuselah

I would have condemned you for wanton cruelty and needless spam..

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Speak for yourself Meth... Your hypocrisy is worthy of Bush when he remarked on Russia's invasion of Georgia as being "unacceptable conduct in the 21st Century." and "being an unprecedented violation of the rights of a sovereign nation such as Georgia" :laugh4:.

If this was too political for these forums, then the moderator should feel free to delete it (just the invasion part - hopefully not the whole post!).

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Originally Posted by AP

Speak for yourself Meth... Your hypocrisy is worthy of Bush

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You know the EB Team's stance against spam. Please stay on topic or I will have you "...hung from tha neck 'till yer feet quit kickin'!"

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Originally Posted by AP

That's a fine idea, and I heartily support it, however, how much do we know about the Boii? The EB team would have tough time developing them.

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Who were they, anyways? An alpine tribe of some sort? Celtic? German? Thai? Also, since this relates to empty areas on the EB map, I'm living in hope of a baltic/or just north of the Getai faction. There is already quite a unit roster up there that can be taken advantage of... :yes:

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

As for Pergamon, am I the only one who does not look too favorably upon their new status as an EB II faction? I mean, they were just one among the thousands of Greek colonies.

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Not exactly. They were one of the bigger and wealthier city states in 272 B.C., and the most important of the Ionian cities. This gave them the capability to stave of the Seleucids as well as the Galatians, and even go on the offence. At one point, Pergamon controlled a major chunk of Asia Minor, including the Kleruch settlements that were a major source of manpower for the Seleucid Empire. This gave them both the wealth and the manpower to set themselves up as a major successor state. Unfortunately this success was short-lived, but compare it to Syracuse who never managed control Sicily, and was at this point only able to stave of the Carthaginians with help of the Romans.

Pergamian Kingdom:

http://www.daedalus.gr/DAEI/PRODUCTS...OS/PGHIST1.jpg

And you're still doubting?

=======================

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Well, it's a simplistic, stereotypical view. You wouldn't assume even the least developed European culture used sticks at that time, but for a little-understood African nation you were comfortable with that same assumption.

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Yes, I know, and for that, I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

That's a fine idea, and I heartily support it, however, how much do we know about the Boii? The EB team would have tough time developing them.

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How much do we know about the Saba?

Less than we know about the Boii.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Less than we know about the Boii.

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Ta Da.

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Originally Posted by Hax

And you're still doubting?

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Yes as a matter of fact. There are too many nations around Mediterranean anyway. EB team says they strive to represent everything and everyone equally, even going as far as giving more provinces to the Northern and Steppe areas of the map than most people though was prudent. For that I admire the team. Some areas of the map, such as Eastern Europe are basically crying out for a faction, whereas the area around Pergamon is already crowded as it is. There is already almost no Eleutheroi provinces in that area, and now there is going to be even less. Saba, on the other hand are in an another area that lacks faction.

Anyway, how is the EB Team going to implement so many new factions and units, while keeping the old units when there a limit to 255 models and a total unit limit of 500? That is one question that I did not hear voiced.


Here is what I previously said on this:

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What kind of unique units will Pergamon have? Pergamon Hoplites, that have the same skin (with the exception of different coloured and patterned shield)as Greek Classical Hoplites, and with the exception of a different name, plus 1 more attack or 2 more defence skill than the regular Classical Hoplite; Akontistai with a different hat and a different skin tan? :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Yes as a matter of fact. There are two many nations around Mediterranean anyway. EB team says they strive to represent everything and everyone equally, even going as far as giving more provinces to the Northern and Steppe areas of the map than most people though was prudent. For that I admire the team. Some areas of the map, such as Eastern Europe are basically crying out for a faction, whereas the area around Pergamon is already crowded as it is. There is already almost no Eleutheroi provinces in that area, and now there is going to be even less. Saba, on the other hand are in an another area that lacks faction.

Anyway, how is the EB Team going to implement so many new factions and units, while keeping the old units when there a limit to 255 models and a total unit limit of 500? That is one question that I did not hear voiced.


Here is what I previously said on this:

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Model limit is unknown but some guy had managed to insert 800 model entries without any crash. So basically 500 unit limit, at least 500 model limit.
Pergamon unit roster has not been finalized, but go read the preview for some thoughts the EB team have.

Pergamon was among five factions the EB team chose at once when we decided to make EB2. They were a significant player in Anatolian politics and we could not ignore that.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Some areas of the map, such as Eastern Europe are basically crying out for a faction...

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Well, apart from the Bastarnae and Boshporian Kingdom, both of which might very well make it into EBII, I don´t really see any possible factions, unless you count the Boii as Eastern Europe.
That´s 2 or 3 factions, where´d you want the remaining 7 to go?

1 Mauretania
2 Boii
3 Arevaci
4 Boshporian Kingdom
5 Pergamon
6 Bastarnae
7 Odrysai
8 Belgae
9 Massyles/Masaesyles
10 Scripting/Gandharan satrapy/Nabatae/Germanic tribe/something else

My current predictions. Not quite satisfied with them, feel like quite a few are wrong, especially unsure about Odrysai, but I figure I had to put this up sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by Krusader

Model limit is unknown but some guy had managed to insert 800 model entries without any crash.

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Say whAT!?!? Hardcodes, anyone? Yes, you could do that, but that would require creating new .exe, which is illegal, right?

Huh? Why? 42?

Let's make it clear: RTW DMB is limited to some <=256 (?) models. So if each model were to have a unique ID (which it probably has) this could've been very well done in an address space of just 1 byte (or 8 bits inside some ID value). That corresponds to a max of 256 models by ID-rules anyways.

So since M2TW has moved beyond the 256 limit, naturally an 8 bit/1 byte address space no longer suffices for any ID tagging. Assuming an ID-tagging mechanism which uses separate chunks of memory allocated for this specific purpose, then we're onto at least double the address space (2 bytes) or: 2^16 =65536 models. If we don't, then from 'this guy's experience' we may deduce that at least 2 bits were added to the address space, upping the limit to at least as much as 1024 models.

Of course this is theory and the developpers might've very well introduced an arbitrary cap. But now you can see why a limit is not known: efficient limit testing would require you to run a test over twice the amount of DMB data of the previous test. For all practical purposes M2TW offers more model-space than we currently fill; and even if you solve this 'limit' programatically: who'd let his PC munch away for hours to do that? Each test grows with a factor 2 in size until you hit that limit. Then you'd have to recursively reduce difference towards either a previously known good test or bad test (depending on the outcome of the latest test) and thereby approach the real limit.

Say the limit was 11:
1 < good
2 < good
4 < good
8 < good
16 < bad
12 < bad
10 < good
11 < good
Tried both 10 and 12 so can't reduce any further: 11 must be the limit.
Now try that on: a limit of (2^13 - 3) which equals 8189. Keep in mind: each test requires a full write file/check with M2TW/evaluate result cycle.

:jawdrop:


Are you serious?

Yup. I'm definitely not going to do that in the forseeable future. :wink:

Foot told me the M2TW DMB lists its own 'cap' of sorts, but whether that's used as a hint/check for the M2TW engine to create the required amount of model object representations more quickly & efficiently or whether the sky really is the limit... IDK.

EDIT: Just imagine my 'model' is actually correct - imagine then that the limit was 2 bytes -> 65536 models. Now with this 'efficient' testing you would get at this cap 65536 during the 'first phase' while you're simply doubling test-data.
Next step (131072 models) would yield 'bad'. Okay, let's reduce... next step 98304 yields still bad... can you imagine the time that would take? Not to mention hardware?

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Originally Posted by Hax

Less than we know about the Boii.

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Hardly. We have plenty of archaeological (figural and non) and epigraphic evidence for many aspects of Sabaean culture, including religious, social, and war-related activity; the same certainly cannot be said for the Boii.

I thought it was still uncertain if the Saba even originated in Southern Arabia or Eastern Ethiopia.

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Originally Posted by General Appo

Well, apart from the Bastarnae and Boshporian Kingdom, both of which might very well make it into EBII, I don´t really see any possible factions, unless you count the Boii as Eastern Europe.

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Don't forget the Lugii/Lugians in southern Poland. They were in the running for inclusion in EB1, but lost out to the Sabyn.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I thought it was still uncertain if the Saba even originated in Southern Arabia or Eastern Ethiopia.

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Does that matter for EB purposes? We don't know where Etruscans came from, but we know sure know a lot more about them than about other civilizations, like the Eastern European ones for instance. Mostly all that matters is everything about what the civilization was at about 272 BC.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Does that matter for EB purposes? We don't know where Etruscans came from, but we know sure know a lot more about them than about other civilizations, like the Eastern European ones for instance. Mostly all that matters is everything about what the civilization was at about 272 BC.

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Which we know less about then the Boii.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Which we know less about then the Boii.

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We know less about Etruscans than Boii? Is that what you meant?

Are you sure? True, Etruscans are mysterious, but we have countless Etruscan artifacts and we have even found inscriptions in their alphabet, which we sadly cannot decipher, but I am quite certain that if the US military worked on deciphering Etruscan alphabet as much as they work on cracking Russian and Chinese codes, then we would already be reading those inscriptions with ease.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

We know less about Etruscans than Boii? Is that what you meant?

Are you sure? True, Etruscans are mysterious, but we have countless Etruscan artifacts and we have even found inscriptions in their alphabet, which we sadly cannot decipher, but I am quite certain that if the US military worked on deciphering Etruscan alphabet as much as they work on cracking Russian and Chinese codes, then we would already be reading those inscriptions with ease.

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oops I forgot to edit that quote, to only say the last part about knowing only what they were like in 272 B.C. To which I meant to imply that we know more about the Boii in 272 then the Saba in 272, and that the Boii is guaranteed a spot because of our knowledge of them compared to others already in game and its necessity for game balance in middle Europe. I wasn't referring to the Etruscans.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

oops I forgot to edit that quote, to only say the last part about knowing only what they were like in 272 B.C. To which I meant to imply that we know more about the Boii in 272 then the Saba in 272, and that the Boii is guaranteed a spot because of our knowledge of them compared to others already in game and its necessity for game balance in middle Europe. I wasn't referring to the Etruscans.

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Since you are so insistent on this point, would you care to summarize why you think there is more evidence for the Boii c. 272 BC than there is for the Sabaeans?

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

Since you are so insistent on this point, would you care to summarize why you think there is more evidence for the Boii c. 272 BC than there is for the Sabaeans?

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Idk, twice as many sources in the Boii wikipedia page then the Saba page? Seriously though, I am not an expert on either but I was around when Saba was introduced and a lot of people were like why? And apparently they needed a faction there to keep AS and Ptole from spreading into that region instead of fighting in Palestine and Syria, not because of any major historical importance.

If you check my original posts you will also see I said that that the Boii will be in mostly due to game balance and not major historical accuracy. Someone said, well how much do we know about the Boii then and I replied less then the Saba, because I have played the Saba in game and it is not anywhere near the level of historical content as any of the other factions. I have read before from others that the only major info on the Germanic tribes comes from Tacitus and is way in the future from 272, yet when I have played Sweboz there is a lot of historical information. So if EB seems to have more info on the Germanic tribes in 272 then supposedly a major red sea trading nation, then why should I expect the Boii another major tribe to have less info then the Saba?

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Idk, twice as many sources in the Boii wikipedia page then the Saba page? Seriously though, I am not an expert on either but I was around when Saba was introduced and a lot of people were like why? And apparently they needed a faction there to keep AS and Ptole from spreading into that region instead of fighting in Palestine and Syria, not because of any major historical importance.

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I don't think I need to be writing this, but Wikipedia is a very poor source for any sort of historical information, especially on a specialist subject like ancient South Arabian civilizations. I know that the EB team has had a hard time getting experts to join the team who can help with the Sabaeans, so the Sabaeans of EBI are not really a good reflection of the historical evidence, unfortunately.

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If you check my original posts you will also see I said that that the Boii will be in mostly due to game balance and not major historical accuracy. Someone said, well how much do we know about the Boii then and I replied less then the Saba, because I have played the Saba in game and it is not anywhere near the level of historical content as any of the other factions. I have read before from others that the only major info on the Germanic tribes comes from Tacitus and is way in the future from 272, yet when I have played Sweboz there is a lot of historical information. So if EB seems to have more info on the Germanic tribes in 272 then supposedly a major red sea trading nation, then why should I expect the Boii another major tribe to have less info then the Saba?

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There's some information from sources on events contemporary to the EB timeframe about historical events related to the Germanic tribes, but the only evidence on most of their culture comes from Germania, which was written c. 100 AD. There is far less actual historical information about the Sabaeans than the Germans or the Boii, but much more cultural information (i.e. civic institutions, religion, social practices). Since the difficulty in EB is recreating the culture as a whole and not the history after 272 BC beyond general trends (since that, for the most part, is up to the players), there are many more resources relating to the Sabaeans available to the team than relating to the Boii or the Germans.

As for the gameplay considerations, those are their own separate matter, but you seem to be conflating history and practical gameplay applications here when your historical basis is wrong.

Ahh, so what you are saying is that the lack of info on the Saba is not due to a lack of archeological information and references by others, but due to a lack of people on the EB team who are knowledgeable about the culture?

Almost 60 pages of thread and we have only Pergamon revealed.
:laugh4:

Nice job, men.
I'll be whipping myself till next preview:whip::whip::whip:

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Ahh, so what you are saying is that the lack of info on the Saba is not due to a lack of archeological information and references by others, but due to a lack of people on the EB team who are knowledgeable about the culture?

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pretty much:clown:


so, many will think that the Boii will be in EBII?

Ineresting idea. should balance the east german area neatly.

@meinpanzer: may you supply any information on Saba's army (besides what EB has)? I have already modded the cavalry, and need them checked it out. PM or post, it don't matter. neither does time-not in a hurry this time.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Seriously though, I am not an expert on either but I was around when Saba was introduced and a lot of people were like why? And apparently they needed a faction there to keep AS and Ptole from spreading into that region instead of fighting in Palestine and Syria, not because of any major historical importance.

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If that was the reason, then they would simply have added strong rebel armies to the region like they did in the Alps. The Saba were included to represent the Arabian people, whom may not have been as spectacularly successful as the Hellenes (at least, not in this era), but whom had a pretty sophisticated urban civilization and were major traders. Also, this gave the cities in the area a proper founding faction, as previously they would rebel to the Ptolemaioi or the Parthians, neither of which was realistic.

Gameplay considerations do play a role when considering candidate factions, but they take second seat to history. The Sabeans certainly were not added on flimsy historical basis. Yes, they may not have been the power that Pergamon was, but on the other hand the Hellenes are already very well represented, and the Arabs barely.

Balancing a faction is, to my mind, no argument at all for including another one. That can be done by creating powerful rebels, changing recruitment zones, etc. Expending a faction slot is really the last option.

After the Pergamon preview, the main bets of the thread are:

-Numidia
-Boii
-Arevaci

The other factions mentioned are more hypothetical:

-Mauritania
-Belgae
-Bosphorean kingdom
-Bastarnae
-Scythia
-Galatia
-Goidelics
-Siracusa
-Massalia.
-Nubia
-Indian satrapy
-Yue-zhi
-Etc

This is the basic summary of 60 pages of interesting and funny "iddle" talk.:beam:

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Ahh, so what you are saying is that the lack of info on the Saba is not due to a lack of archeological information and references by others, but due to a lack of people on the EB team who are knowledgeable about the culture?

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From what I've heard, yeah. That's not to denigrate the EB team though - specialists in South Arabian archaeology and epigraphy are very few and far between, and they are an even more insular and close-knit group than almost any other group of specialists I've encountered. The EB team has done their best with what they have, which has still done a very good job of representing the situation in South Arabia at the time.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

From what I've heard, yeah. That's not to denigrate the EB team though - specialists in South Arabian archaeology and epigraphy are very few and far between, and they are an even more insular and close-knit group than almost any other group of specialists I've encountered. The EB team has done their best with what they have, which has still done a very good job of representing the situation in South Arabia at the time.

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Hmmm, interesting. Why are they so insular and close-knit?

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Hmmm, interesting. Why are they so insular and close-knit?

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It has to do with the size of their branch of linguistics/archeology/any science or social setting, etc. not many are into this. so, in order to support themselves/get help, they support each other. I can personally vouch for that: working with the AP bio students in one class on a seperate project from another, I quickly became friends with the whole class, and vice versa-and the competition between classes waqs notoriously vicious, since neither side wanted to bother with the other (i.e, grew insular). or take how tribes act; the smaller ones (like some tribes in the amazons or New guinea), tend to get close knit, cohesive, and insular. Bigger groups have more weight, so they can be more outgoing, surplused, and often incohesive (like a city can be-socially).

In conclusion: any small group that has a particular specialty or skill does tend to bond together due to the small size, common interest, and need to support and prop one another.:book:

did I just describe a sociological phenomenon?:wall::wall:

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Hmmm, interesting. Why are they so insular and close-knit?

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Pretty much because of what Ibrahim wrote. South Arabia was a historically fairly isolated region (mostly just interacting with other parts of Arabia and parts of eastern Africa), so specialists in ancient Arabia do much less work on interactions between cultures and civilizations than almost any other study of the ancient world. Arabian specialists are as small in number as, say, scholars of ancient India, but they do not have to focus nearly as much on other areas of study. Consequently, it seems that Arabian specialists interact much more with each other and form a closed group. Not to mention that in order to do any serious work, one must be familiar with a century or more of intensive and often very complex chronological research and be able to read Sabaean, which is not widely taught.

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Originally Posted by Cartaphilus

-Yue-zhi

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Ahem. The Yuezhi didn´t enter the map until about 100 years after the game´s start, and since there will be no emergent factions I very much doubt they will be in as an independent faction.
I think they will still be represented as in EBI with the appearance of a few überstrong rebel armies, possibly scripted better in EBII so they will actually do anything except just sit around or just take a single town, but hardly as an actual faction.

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Originally Posted by General Appo

Ahem. The Yuezhi didn´t enter the map until about 100 years after the game´s start, and since there will be no emergent factions I very much doubt they will be in as an independent faction.
I think they will still be represented as in EBI with the appearance of a few überstrong rebel armies, possibly scripted better in EBII so they will actually do anything except just sit around or just take a single town, but hardly as an actual faction.

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Don't say "ahem" too quickly, my friend.
I said that these were the factions the people have speculated about in the whole thread.
But this is very far from my own opinion.
I don't think that the yuezhi will be in the game.

1. Tyrus
2. Caucasian Iberia
3. Syracuse
4. Bosporus
5. Marcomanni(???)
6. Iberian tribe
7. Numidia
8. Bithynya(?)




http://www.forumancientcoins.com/cat...54&pos=0#Greek Coins Coins

nice link btw)))

What is Tyrus?

what about the belgae confederation? historical buffer against Germanic invasions in Gaul
gave a very good account against Caesar
another rebellion after wards under ambiorix which forced the romans to take some aspirins
already got a few unique units in EB
sure they weren't imperialistic except for the invasions in Britain to give birth to the casse
and come on people
do you know nicer people then the good old Belgians :D

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Originally Posted by strategos alexandros

What is Tyrus?

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Týros(greek) is TYRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years, without success, although a compromise peace was made in which Tyre paid tribute to the Babylonians. It later fell under the power of the Persians.

In 332 BC, the city was conquered by Alexander the Great, after a siege of seven months in which he built the causeway from the mainland to the island[13], but it continued to maintain much of its commercial importance until the Christian era. The presence of the causeway affected water currents nearby, causing sediment to build up, making the connection permanent.

In 315 BC, Alexander's former general Antigonus begins his own siege of Tyre[14] , taking the city a year later [15].

In 126 BC, Tyre regained its independence[16] (from the Seleucids) and was allowed to keep much of its independence when the area became a Roman province in 64 BC[17] .

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Originally Posted by lobf

Well, it's a simplistic, stereotypical view. You wouldn't assume even the least developed European culture used sticks at that time, but for a little-understood African nation you were comfortable with that same assumption.

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I think by sticks and stuff Hax meant something like this?

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Originally Posted by zurab

Týros(greek) is TYRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years, without success, although a compromise peace was made in which Tyre paid tribute to the Babylonians. It later fell under the power of the Persians.

In 332 BC, the city was conquered by Alexander the Great, after a siege of seven months in which he built the causeway from the mainland to the island[13], but it continued to maintain much of its commercial importance until the Christian era. The presence of the causeway affected water currents nearby, causing sediment to build up, making the connection permanent.

In 315 BC, Alexander's former general Antigonus begins his own siege of Tyre[14] , taking the city a year later [15].

In 126 BC, Tyre regained its independence[16] (from the Seleucids) and was allowed to keep much of its independence when the area became a Roman province in 64 BC[17] .

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Emmm....first of none of except the last note is within EB´s timeframe, and secondly the fact that the city got its ass kicked by 3 different guys hardly seems to justify its inclusion as a faction.

Tyre was long, long, long, really really really long gone its primetime and IIRC was just a moderately wealthy city complete at the whims of the greater powers of its area.
They never really had any expansionist ideas either, even during its hey-days it was mostly trading and small colonies.
Had the game been set say...1000 BC to 600 BC, then sure, Tyre (or perhaps rather a whole Phoenician faction) would probably be a good choice, but as of now I´ve yet to see a single even mediocre reason for its inclusion as anything beyond a region capital.
Heck, you said yourself the city wasn´t even independent until 126 BC!

I think the inclusion of the Boii would be great and would finally do away with the need for these absurd super stacks they currently have in Central Europe. But my dream is to see the Galatians as a playable faction... Who knows? A Celtic Empire in Asia would be a very juicy prospect.

Meh, there is already one new faction in Asia Minor: Pergamon, in addition to the many other factions that are around or already in Asia Minor, so the Galatikoi are no longer an option really. Makes no sense to spam one area of the map, while leaving others entirely empty. Not to mention that the Galatikoi were not especially expansionist, which is the main criteria for smaller factions. I mean, they did plenty of raiding, I am certain, but no large scale organized invasions. Except for the original Gallic invasion that brought the Galatians to whee they were of course.

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Originally Posted by zurab

1. Tyrus
2. Caucasian Iberia
3. Syracuse
4. Bosporus
5. Marcomanni(???)
6. Iberian tribe
7. Numidia
8. Bithynya(?)

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IIRC the Marcomanni were part of the Suebi (Sweboz) confederacy, and already in EB1. As for Tyre, I don't think it was much of a power of Alexander sacked it. Certainly, it didn't have any imperial ambitions. Probably just as well, with two very Imperial and very powerful neighbours.

1.Boii
2.Numidian faction
3.Arevaci
4.Lugii
5.Another British faction
6.Thracian faction

I'd like to see a celtic faction in the Nothern British Isles (sots, picts)